10 11 12 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE # 019-010614 Ne ite) DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Suite 285 4 91301 EFTA00127808

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE < 1 APPEARANC OR GENERAL Oo io t ive) oO co EFTA00127809

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LIMITED Oo io H 0) on fii] b Q Q ive) oO co wo OFFICIAL USE conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, eral inve conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? MR. J: «515. WN MALE: Madis New York, New York. Also EFTA00127810

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? -- a . First name -- EFTA00127811

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LIMITED Oo) 13 15 16 his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm a: Yeah. But you are s here, you are willing to pay the | tti(‘éii@s No. That’s quite all EFTA00127812

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LIMITED oO w co OFFIC AL stigation into the Epstein and the circumstan surrounding it, and het voluntarily provide answers to our Will the sir. This is form that we to do all interviews, a: Is that form B? going to read it for you - United States EFTA00127813

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure.” And this is what we are writing for everyone that we speak to, just because we’re looking at it as a -- HE: «Bight. es : -- whole of what happened. “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you chose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00127814

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 to make a statement and answer questions. No 2 promises or threats have been made to me, and 3 or coercion of any kind has been yu would like to take a 5 If you agree to it, if 6 7 to look at it, he may, 4 8 9 re it 0 says “Employee Signature.” And then, also 1 write your name. I did read it verbatim. 2 a: I'm sure you did. 0O place that said attorneys -- ive) 7 It’s for him, myself, and the witness. It’s 8 view it, or ask -- 9 s all right. 20 ions about it. all right. I doh a : Where do you want me to -her words, if yo EFTA00127815

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LIMITED oO wo ioe) oO co wo OFFICIAL him ” tew that Great. ME: ict. sir. Did you h EFTA00127816

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the ‘ ctor General, Special Agent. I'm printing WwW 3 im o wu 3 o 4 a: Oh, one thing. So, ordinarily, I would take notes. I’ve w 6 Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, 7 as you saw, to which my body is falling apart 8 I had severe arthritis in my neck, and it’s 9 radiated down to my hands. I can't really 10 basically write. So, that’s why -- -- I'm not taking notes. But ive) good memory, so, yeah. 4 Eee : All right. Great. sign as the witness? oO 7 | tti‘ésC*“r Put your name and take fee) ie) wu H i) 1?) rt a @ K @ 07) ct ie) Ht ct y 0) a e) it 3 9 MR. a : This is Special Agent | 20 a. I'm signing as the witness, and dating 22 WENN: 811 right. Before EFTA00127817

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 truth and nothing but the truth during this What is current home are the last four EFTA00127818

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U How long w sition with the ee : I'm the Warden het at FCI Fort Two EFTA00127819

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 bruary. 8 And as the pl 9 or, what and 11 ee : Monitoring he 20 institutions in region, and, 3 s within the know, showin Gg in an orderly Now, did you arious wardens 23 EFTA00127820

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 a : In New York. Metropolitan Correcti 3 ee : And how long were you a 4 warden the Oo 13 a : No. The position -- 15 I was 18 to the 19 regional di I went into the 95 EFTA00127821

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 you familiar with inmate in, who Ph d withi °) ioe) io All right. So, ou are actually familiar + Ww b- ct 7 16 anything like 18 ho nN No Wa or I mean, talked to EFTA00127822

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and at least about, like, providing the information that they utilized to this report? ee : No. Okay. Fair enough. After the incident occurred, what was your role with determining what happened and what didn't happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019? ee: Well, I responded to the institution. At the time, when I got there, he was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, and I've always been trained, if it was a crime scene, if you weren’t particularly there, the least amount of people that, you know, that go through that crime scene, just don’t go into it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, basically gathering information on what happened, notifying the region, notifying the FBI. The IG. WN: (indiscernible *00:09:28). He’s already got that phone call. a: Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00127823

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 2 a: -- like, fuck it, I'm going to c 5) i] a ~ WwW u Oo be a 2) > 12) ~ rf fe : That’s why we do it for the wi 6 next six months. 7 ee: So, there was a lot of 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 9 out the status of inmate Epstein. And things 10 more along those lines. 11 ee : Now, did you help with 2 gathering information, up until a certain 3 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 4 or did you continue to gather -? 15 a: No, like, my boss was 16 calling me the regional director. They needed 4 i information. You know, starting a timeline on 8 what happened. So, I had my executiv 9 assistant there, and, you know, we would just 20 gather any information, and just, you know, 21 making sure that, you know, things that were 22 requested were being provided to them, any 23 information. 24 ee : And who was the regional director at the time? EFTA00127824

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LIMITED Oo ~] w Oo OFFICIAL U time. who was emails, with regard to the incident. things lik o timelines from - was found around timeline st special H arting with, it EFTA00127825

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 wo “See below. Just to ensure you know 2 what being relayed to DOJ.” Now, is this -. 3 And then, what I have behind it is, these are 4 different timelines that are all updated 5 throughout the day. 6 a: Mm-hmm. Same date. And then, the next one oo ie) Nh be ue] 3 wo was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 10 12th. And then, the final one that we have is 11 the August 13th. So, do these look like the 2 timelines that you would have been gathering 3 information and providing to | 4 Ee : Okay. It looks like it. ee : Now, where were you actually obtaining this information from? You 7 said fF was obtaining it for you? w oO 8 ae: He was the exec, we recall, 9 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 20 specifics on how we get it, because there was 21 so much going on. 23 Ee : That, you know, I don’t 24 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you 25 know, calling around and trying to find out. EFTA00127826

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 20 So, I don’t really recall the specifics. ee : All right. Well, rather than get into each one of th will take too long, I’1l just do the very first in cell, breathing, but would not ff initially.” first initial attempt that Ep ein may have had on his life? -- this would -. We would EFTA00127827

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 that. I t you ioe) tual suicide. This is No. What I meant was -- 8 that was all put in there, as far as -- te) This was his first attempt. i .) q f bh i) wo ct om he] a bh + Q fe) @ w Ww wu 3 oo ct D 5 c 3 + bh bh | t fe) # t+ wi O =] b | ct ae i) H oO bh n 15 t only, like, three 16 four or five, four or fi 17 paragraphs. to me like we t co U oO ie) 19 send the information to the regional director - compile this information to send to DOJ. he did was, No Wa Oh, you’re right. EFTA00127828

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LIMITED Oo wi Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 22 ry. I read that incorrectly. So, it and sure that it’s what breathing, but would " EFTA00127829

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo OFFIC valuations while on suicide your recollection, Yeah. That is what is in you first read it to me Yup, yup. And Bb u a i) RR fn) what I EFTA00127830

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 24 2019. It starts with, “8 that, then, I do have, we that later, but what does that tell you, if it is departing for court, but WS: So, that would mean With All Belongings. returning. Correct? a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leavi ‘ Z t All right. Great. And on from there, what happens And we’re going to get more in detail, so I don’t want to go through each thing, because we’ re going to have to get into it later. But so, EFTA00127831

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this information is 2 compiling, information that we w stu Ph f that you guys were and you were providing to Mr. That would probably be sent up to him. Okay. Great. And then, 7 this is all the updates that occurred 8 afterwards. Let’s see. Why is that 9 highlighted? So, here is something. Do you 10 know why in this one, it would be updated? 11 This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, 12 “7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the 3 warden.” Is that just, put that in the wrong 4 place or something, and it says, “Inmate Reyes 15 released from court.” (Indiscernible *00:16: 17 eee: (Indiscernible *00:16:30) 8 just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 9 10th. 20 HE: Mehmm. = (Indiscernible 21 *00:16:34) 22 ee : Yeah. Okay. So, the 23 next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It 24 just shows the next update, you have that under 25 August - or Saturday - August 10th. EFTA00127832

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LIMITED Oo 10 a : Yeah. I don't know why i 13 15 Oo oc | | EFTA00127833

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) day. : Yeah. I didn't come back to work until, when I got called, there was a Ya’ suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). Okay. So, all of this. So, if I can have that back, if you don’t mind. a So, all of thi All right. Is it safe to n 7] assume that, a w this went on, and specifically, the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, would be the most accurate timeline? a: It should be, but I don’t want to attest to it. I mean -- Eee : Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying, based - is there any reason for you to believe that the timelines that were provided, or in any way, it was determined that, you know, we should add a point that actually didn't occur? Or is it safe to assume that, the last one that was sent would be the most accurate one? : That’s how it typically works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't attest to it -- EFTA00127834

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LIMITED ioe) w oO io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE ho was one that you corrections, you make the corrections. And information, if you have to. things, it’s esting to 'm going to ask | ! bet just to initial and date, and that’s just to that this is the document we : %It’s not saying that this reviewed on it, EFTA00127835

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE have you do every single one. sing to put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. ee: What’s the date? The 18th? going to just acti 5 rt oO rh 3 1) timeline, I'm ing to keep it in fron b ) Qa fu use we might have a: -- this is going to be a long- fw ty i) bp 5 rt oO int s m = | tti‘ésC*“r It’s going to be pretty long. That’s where I was trying to -- a: Yeah. Just -. | tsti‘i‘iz*@r -- you know? All right. So, July 23rd incident. what do you 1l what happened on July 23rd with inmate Kh om Q Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? tion investi had an EFTA00127836

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt o 3) 5S w c b P- ct ion b Bb w i] ou 7) I f w ot) know, that he was 14 but I don’t recall the io] 15 But I know it went back and forth where t o wu m7 w oF attempt, or an issue with oo MR. ae: Tartaglione. i, r 0) 5 iT] F b n cr ion W] ct © K 0) bE oO 0 om EFTA00127837

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LIMITED 1) | rations lieute rt oO EFTA00127838

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 “From the memo attached, the information I received is not what I was told happened.” ee : So, what I wanted to know is, and I guess, would you like me just to refresh your memory, to really quickly read what she said happened, so we can figure out what it is that didn't happen? ee: Okay. Yeah. HS: «811 right. So, this is subject, “Possible suicide attempt.” Again, July 23rd, 2019. It says, “On July -”. Let me just sit back so you can just kind of read along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to you? a : No. No problem. eee: I'm vaccinated, just so you know. It says, “On July 23rd, 2019, at approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance on the Special Housing Unit was announced by the control center. Upon my arrival, I was informed that an inmate had attempted suicide and proceeded to cell Z05-124LAD. I observed inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, lying in the fetal position on the floor of his EFTA00127839

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no further injuries to his person. An attempt was made to get the inmate to stand on his own, with negative results. The inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff was directed to retrieve the stretcher. As inmate Epstein was being placed on the stretcher by responding staff, he would open his eyes and observe staff. When staff made eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit.” Was it that? The health care? ee: Health. Health Services. ee : “Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the || of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him again, he attempted the same act. I laid him EFTA00127840

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety. At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won't do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member observe inmate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with | tti‘zw“S who stated that Inmate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, HMM had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him. He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘Jeff. What are you doing?’ He didn't answer. So, he got up, turned on the light,” or - so, yeah - “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck. He stated that he then called the guards, EFTA00127841

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he’s old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn’t remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn’t responding. He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the daily news. Nick was on the floor reading the daily news. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on. At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, ‘These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is inhumane. I wish I could report it. a. EFTA00127842

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.’ He then turned to a page in the daily news that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars. Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staffs arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn't he respond when we were calling out to him. He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn’t care. Duty medical doctor -" how do you pronounce that name? notified and briefed. It was determined that EFTA00127843

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) no further medical attention was needed. A medical assessment was not conducted at the time of this incident, due to the fact there was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate Epstein was examined and treated by M-L-P-Y.” ee: Joaquin. He: = Joaquin. J-0-A-Q-U-I-N. “For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base of his neck. One section on the front, with marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his left knee.” So, sorry that that was so lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, is this, does anything in here strike you as inaccurate? information I received is not what I was told that in the attached memo, “The 3) happened.” Do you know what she is referring to? a: I think she - if I recall - that she told, that said that it was an attempted suicide, but then she got any additional information that it might have been EFTA00127844

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wo o 1 ein and Tartaglione having an issue in his 2 cell. 3 ee : And what, and my 4 understanding is that § came up with 5 inconclusive findings. oO In the investigation. 7 a : What is your belief that 8 happened? wo te. wu i=) 11 ee: I don’t want -. I mean, I 2 don’t know, you know, with the injuries on the 3 neck, I don’t know if it was a suicide, and I 4 don't know, based on Epstein’s statement, that 15 something done to him. So, couldn’t prove 16 what it was. 7) 8 there any reason for to know or believe that 9 it was one or the other, though? I know you 20 are trying not to speculate, but -. 21 a: I mean, I would, you know, 22 you have there be the medical department, who 23 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 24 you could say you come to a conclusion from injuries, from phy sical injuries, but we EFTA00127845

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Ww wo 1 weren’t even able to do that. So, according to the ies) ur understanding is that weren’t able to tell if meone —-? That, from what I - if I can wi 6 - and I don’t know - I read it - but I don't 7 know -. I remember on the report, they were 8 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 9 what -. id he attempt suicide, or was he 10 11 ee : And were you satisfied 2 with that response, or did you think that they ive) 4 HS: St think they looked into it. And I think it was, w know, you couldn’t look into it oO further. I mean, either -- a suicide, or it ie] | | b rt arated them. oO = m wu n it) wu c = ct U 2) 0 it) o 'o 21 So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or 22 weren’t, you know -? 23 Ee : I mean, they interviewed 24 them. They asked the questions. You had the EFTA00127846

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 other -- WwW N | os | A tn is) c ] af Qo o ran & a nm Oo 3 n QO io] i be oF i] @ 6 Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July 8 9 remember what happe I know we separated h of them. 11 he was on suicide watch. a 12 13 just so, that 14 don’t mind just 15 initialing and dating that one, that we just 16 one is from 17 chleschinger. 18 19 20 20 24 chronological log, re: Epstein.” It says, 25 “C.0. FY Was a EFTA00127847

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 However, the wrong book was used. I am suicide watch b 3 = b 1) rat oO Fh 3) rt wu Fh rh companion ioe) } a) normal? Was that oO 8 happening because we have a log that the io inmate, 12 someone, then they use a certain log. But the ioe) fact that, you know, the document 14 place, it was just, you know, it was just an 16 17 document, so. 21 know which one it was. U (e) bh th H rt oO ; Bb ho 3 N Ww I f = Fy U I I No, no, no. It had to be if it was C.0O. a. i) wi No EFTA00127848

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 he would h o om 3 | ) bp n ct bh ct be 11] bh wn =] fu rt D kK bh ] be handler. Oo) Just from our Oo use usually, when EFTA00127849

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) oO co No Nm No ion) ho ho w OFFICIAL USE re putting your name, if yo you suicide watch. so you might be able to assume So, here email, example of what you are referri thin like, maybe this i he should have been here, it shows all the other lo Hmm. when someone comes on duty, this is but leave -- they they This -- they mix But must have wrote it in But typically, when you come on shift starts at 8:00, you will name, as assuming the duti Okay. ME: you typi relieved on maybe didn't fill there. het ie) c All right it is tt relieved, u are is the next show me an It’ ng to. n g you were CC’d, s the real log w using. ut gs. what I mean by is what this le -. the book up. the suicide log. the , let’s say state your full who cally say - So, it out corre EFTA00127850

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co oO H OFFICIAL USE 44 a : They didn't fill it out 7] o, our investigation ee: -- that was on him on the ” -ion was actually, actually found that suspicious at that he was the w 1¢ that was watching him on suicide watch, and then that he is the one that found him on the 10th? > much overtime in the institution, go by when you sign up for it. there is a program that you sign up for, and don't know how the lieutenant did. They might have called them, tt n he signed up for it. So, I don't know. I can't if it was suspicious or not. EFTA00127851

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 45 that we’re revie here, on these two emails, what are they? Yeah. The suicide and this is app cover of a logbook, for suicide ‘g erfect. All right. Do 1 mind just initial and dating this? And again, these aren’t trick questions -- ee : -- I just don’t want to, like, put in your -. If I think it is you might EFTA00127852

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 ies) w ies) ct J he suicide watch log? 9 ee: That is a log you also 10 use ioe) co its) -- making a Don’t though, keep them, like, No N so we know this is i) la on c 5 jen b D o rt fe) iw) o rt 7 oO Kn EFTA00127853

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ~ =) jon QO wu o he Oo c ct i) an b =| i) a) rm 5 5 wu rt ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 47 a : So, if you can keep them, and then write a note on them. After this thing is transcribed, we can things in order. This one is regarding the first attempt, and the one we read from | So, it is that same date that he came off of -. What am I looking signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is -. Is this a entrance log to the $ Housing Unit? Ee : I'm not sure. That’s ee: I'm just, I don't know. It might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. st up until 7/ cial Housing Unit, but this tn i w G q tt ue] a cr i) bp 5 So, I don't know if he would No, no. EFTA00127854

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LIMITED Ww wo Ww oO oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 48 a : I don't know. It might be ee : Or is it to the attorney something? HE: -- «it might be attorn 7/30. G tall (Phonetic iti) gnature. Inmate nam rm 3 Name. This might be an attorr log. + Fall. gnature. Yeah. This might. This is probably an attorney -- it. any time a new in, saying a : So, he had multiple -- , this is -- EFTA00127855

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 Oo w ut who -- ot) oO oo 24 what it is things are. Now, is this the 25 same thing we just lo This EFTA00127856

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) again, it says, “Inmate companion assumed duties from staff on 7/2 ive) oO /1 t 7:00 until ,a 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion was utilized.” ee : So, this one says July 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch chronological log. ee: Mm-hmm. ee : Inmate companion logs. Does this tell you anything more about FY a. or anything different? What is this? This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? That’s just he’s on it? ee: Yeah. It just says, you know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. You got category. I don't know what the MDS wu is, but typically, it’s an assignment. Like, I could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, this must be a medical term. Concerning his medical status. EFTA00127857

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo 95 OFFIC 51 A cr a 0) than what we at before, or is this the same thing? ee : It’s the same. It’s an inmate suicide watch -- panion was watching him. said inmate -. this is an inmate companion inst of 39:51), and it has his number EFTA00127858

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 52 ht ther ric o inf 0) ni] sumed responsibility for that was -- in’s companion on 7/23 until Do you mind just initial dating that? MR. ae: And this is right after the it, right? This is - so, July 23rd this is when he was on suicide watch, not ono I: 8c this is that, it , -1i0n. if] Ph a Oo 5 is, again, it ops/suicide EFTA00127859

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No N N ion) OFFICIAL USE wo ios) watch. And it looks like it’s the difference between the two. Ee: In laymen’s terms, what is the difference between suicide watch and cn hological observation at the MCC, during this time period when Epstein was on it? ee : So, suicide watch is when we have determined, or there is a possibility, through what an individual is saying, that they might cause self-harm to themselves. , that person might not admit it, and we might not have any suicide watch, so we just put them on what we call psychological observation. Ee : And now, it was my understanding -- ae: (Indiscernible *00:41:11). ee : -- it’s basically the same thing, aside from what the inmate is allowed to bh io) Bb ct 0) a =] 0) unit, same room, same -- EFTA00127860

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 a : -- same procedures? 3 ee : Okay. The one thing that 4 I’ve learned more recently is, though, during 5 psychological observation, or I guess I should 6 ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as ~I ue] 77] ke Q os ological observation, is the inmate 8 allowed to have attorney visits? 9 ee: If they are on that watch, 10 no. 11 ee : What about during 2 psychological observation? 3 ee: I think it would be the same 4 thing, that they are not allowed to have. And 15 I'm not sure. Don’t quote me to it. Because 16 typically, when they are on that, we don’t have 7 it. 8 ee : Okay. Do you recall if 9 either yourself or anyone at the institution 20 was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or 21 Epstein’s attorneys, asking that he be removed 22 from either psychological observation or 23 suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? 24 ee: They will always call. I 25 mean, they would. There was always a number EFTA00127861

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 ect, whether it was to place him in general 2 population. So, I don’t, you know, recall -. 3 ee : Do you remember ever 4 being called by a judge? 5 ee: No, I don’t. I don’t 6 recall. 4 7 : Okay. 8 ee : Speaking with a judge. 9 | ti(‘iés@s All right. Because that 10 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 11 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 2 from one or the other. 3 ee: No. Judges wouldn’t 4 typically call for that. frequently would? 7 Ee : Yeah, frequently, they oO 8 would, you know, call our legal department, 9 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 20 population. is he, being housed 21 here? And just not him, if there was any type 22 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 23 type of requests you get from the attorney. 24 | tti(‘éii@s Okay. And do you know if 25 those attorne were made, though, when he was EFTA00127862

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LIMITED 1 Oo ~] Oo OFFICIAL on either suicide watch or ologica a: I don’t recall that. a : You don’t recall. 7) know - I know you said that, think that inmates ing that un then he would not have been -- No. I don’t believe so. No problem. All ric again. Oh, do you mind 26 EFTA00127863

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 57 Fh b b oO ct J wu rt wu accordingly. This one just goes back to that first initial timeline, that looked will send the attorney log next.” So, are we until the 30th? ee: I think that was a typo. Oh, sorry. Do you mind initial and datin« a : Well, this answers your What’s that? About being on p EFTA00127864

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LIMITED Oo wo oO co 0 0) OFFIC say if he had any prior to e@ was released Ee : -- he was visiting with attorne yeah, he was and -- Mm-hmm. his s something a conflicting actually did have attor time. And we’ EFTA00127865

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ite] 1 that’s why I was wondering if you would be able 2 to clear that up at all, but you’re not -- ies) Mm-hmm. w oO 2 ie) 7 a : -- he wouldn’t have? 8 ee : Yeah. Typically, if you are on that, you’re not going to have an attorney wo i=) visit. 11 ee : And just talking to 2 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 3 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 4 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 5 that right. But do you think that maybe they 16 were mistaken? 7 ee: I'm just going from my 8 experience, like any other of the inmates that 9 we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an 20 attorney visit. 22 sp king of ps} 1ology, that’s the next point. 23 Let me just make sure that all the information 24 is on that incident. So, as far as 25 Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is -. EFTA00127866

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LIMITED ies) w oO co io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 60 How do ent with selecting Tartaglione as And how was selection made? ee : So, we weren’t able to get a whole lot of people, you know, think that how safe. rtaglione was So, he was smaller in frame. So, we said that would appropriate cellmate for him. a : To put them together? EFTA00127867

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LIMITED No No No No ies) w oO co ive) oO co wo ion) wi OFFICIAL USE coordination with both t like, you kn chain, to him his ce captain, his recollectio three the a. he was present £ names, put him wit way Which talking about Tart fu Well, Reyes and the only or glione 61 Was it in well as he captain, as one - yeah - would oO ow, I, obviously, I look who we’re say, limate, and what was in talking with the that he brought with Mr. cussed it or that discussion, and h Tartaglione. Do you , or do you recall it ° , Gid that happen with Reyes and - , there were about it. EFTA00127868

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 A 1 to se U 0) the names. So, I don’t know who they 2 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 3 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 4 the two inmates to the director’s office. 5 WN,« (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). 6 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 7 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 8 about as far as if we had to choose between who 9 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 10 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 11 -- 2 ee : Efrain Reyes? 3 ee: -- Reyes, that Reyes would 4 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 5 find anyb 16 -- 7 they went up, and 8 then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes. 9 ee : Okay. Reyes was when 20 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 21 selection, but for -- -- Tartaglione, that was No Nm 24 you 25 I mean, it was in No ion) EFTA00127869

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) is) Ww conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, the powers that be that this is who we’re going to be, and it came back and said, you know, we’re good for that. ee : Okay. Do you know what Tartaglione was in for? ee: He had - I know it was a big drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible *00:48:45) -- ae: Some kind of narcotics. a: Some kind of narcotics. Ee : Some kind of narcotics. So, he - and then, I don’t - and I recall there was murder involved, too. ae: But he was a high-profile case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there m that were trying to get in there, but you know, they would have probably harmed him. I had another pedophile in there, and everybody in the unit, they know who’s in the unit, I'm not taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we can't just arbitrarily force another inmate EFTA00127870

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co ho No w OFFICIAL USE into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was you know, The other -- would not accept Epstein, inmates -- inmates -. nor would not accept a pedophile. They weren’t going to -. weren’t going to stab Epstein *00:49:29). I don’t know the reasons. But I mean, I can’t make the dec all right, I'm going to force you to take this, a then something happens to him, and then -. spoke with Tartaglione and he So, someone actually said he was willing to do it? who spoke to him, And I'm not sure on there but I don’t know. a: It might have been. But I know we said we were going to put him in, and this is what -. And he didn't have speak with him, who would that have been? Would that have been captain? nd id EFTA00127871

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE captain. Shoot, But it probably but - -- you know, putting somebody in there, sit down and you know, if that’s okay with you. I unit -- that, the D to go in there, n drug dealer in typically, appropriate. to believe that rea Again=, know, we’re going to make a move, 10t going with h another high-profile inmate wo try to harm Epstein on : It might have been the typically, you and we’re we’re not going to, 1 with an inmate, wu Hh @ uy) I Oo Ve wi is appropriate to put a im. So, you know, ld be Now, do Tartagli July 23rd? I can't Just because - EFTA00127872

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 2 ee : -- it would be pure Oo 15 ent from other people has that -- t o Mm-hmm. trying t co ct oO in the world not to harm Epstein. And 22 that Tartaglione was in need of 24 what -? Is that a correct 9 EFTA00127873

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 a: artaglione wasn’t in the cell te 2 at the time. 3 w oO Les] | | he o nf] a K pe .Q 3 rt 0 going to put this. ar as Tartaglion 1 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn’t soner. I me 1, we caught him, ive) know, with a cellphone. You know, makin 4 calls, know, and circumventing his c 5 and what But I don’t, I can't ilate on, you know, whether he would do 7 something, or he wouldn’t do So, 8 that know, my dealings with 9 was aware of him. P 20 EFTA00127874

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LIMITED Ww w oO wo 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 68 he placed back show what it is that we have this from forwarded on. gave your own send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide id Niro (Phonetic requesting it. wanted this? EFTA00127875

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 this is? Is this the 3 clinical notes. 4 all - 6 notes from the 15 ee : -- up until July 3 16 17 wonder why. Why would 18 EFTA00127876

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 5 with him. Any medical -- oO w ot) it would only oO 17 kind of, any co with him? I guess tt didn't have 20 notes, and -- there wouldn’t be? EFTA00127877

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 why that would be? ee: Hold on. If an inmate is cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them about it - but most inmates didn't, once you are cleared off of suicide watch, they have other things that they do. You can come down and they give you some (Indiscernible *00:54:42) courses to take. So, they have other types of therapy, but it doesn't necessarily have to be entered in as a medical encounter. ee : Okay. So, this is, so, psychology could have been still meeting with them, just not noted as a medical encounter? a : Yeah. You - I mean - you see them, and you can just, like, if you have patients, you will go, how is everything going? You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a medical encounter. ee : Okay. So, your involvement with this, being that he came off of psychological observation on July 30th, should psychology had interacted with him more in that type of setting, where they would have EFTA00127878

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE ie) been writing clinical not a : No. I think they -- ared him at investigation, it was inconclusive he committed, you know, tried to -- empted to commit suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but if he’s sitting in the report, saying, no, I wasn’t trying to kill myself, and I didn't do it, that’s their assessment of it. ying is that, I chologist, but if the 30th was the day that cleared him to go back -- do you think that th at least checking with a: Well, they probably did. I ee : -- you make your SHU rounds. EFTA00127879

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LIMITED w 3 OFFI CIAL USE 73 u know, s him in other parts institution. u would them. But th him. “Thank you for scheduling of the reconstructive for inmate Ef Correction Service Administ EFTA00127880

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 74 the Northeast R gion. So, do you know if that was ever completed? The actual suicide reconstructio ee: They might have, but nobody 5 ee: Okay. They didn't talk then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks like a template “(Indiscernible prevention program, suicide reconstruction materials.” a: Mm-hmm. Ee : Would have you been the one that would have gathered these things for him? Typically, when this I would m with someone in the institution, to get it. EFTA00127881

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LIMITED ioe) w oO io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 15 = Bb rt te is wn n 18) ie] pa @ fu wn @ i) Ss wn =] K @ ct 7 i] t wu A fF) ct fu s Q o assist in gathering appreciate it, will be helpful.” So, you would just, you would provide that to, like, FY or someone? Yeah. We tell the exec, gather this information, and it might not be ae . It could be the as you show up and a : I wasn’t at the institution. EFTA00127882

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LIMITED O oO gust 12th? w iat’s what I was oO co w t + 19 ee : I was no longer at the het EFTA00127883

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 park. instance, and you were not really involved ies) 4 after that, then? That was it. I didn't hav oO wi Oo wu t=) i 7 a: Yeah. You check in today. Les] oO B oF Le) is) i = Cc u rt u ny ke wo No, I had to park a vehicle, 10 because I had to -. I had the government 11 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so I 2 parked there, and took the train out, 3 (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 4 MR. a: I think when we started, and 15 | asked when you started at the regional 16 office, I think you mentioned 2020. 7 ee: So, the problem is, and he was talking about job title. My job title co still remained the same. 20 MR. QJ: 9 As warden? 21 a: As the warden in New York, oO 22 and it wasn’t removed until 2020. 23 MR. a: Okay. Well, now, but as of 24 August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the 25 region? EFTA00127884

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 78 WN:«ss eah. = DRD (Phonetic Sp. had an interview And then, my we’re signing you up to the office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why kat ry mM o 0 Me 5 .Q H Q A 0 0 jen And I was just told to go up there. So, that’s what transpired. ther warden They brought another one in. MR. ae: So, there was two people with the title of warden, at that point? aT and Lacome Vitale She i 7) don’t mind, just initialing and dat ee : We’1ll get that out of your way. So, this looks like this answers our ee : So, this is an email from EFTA00127885

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LIMITED 1 aw i OFFICIAL w 3 4 time, USE with whom I report a saw Mm-hmm. He had him in medical, a or any with. mental 19 He EFTA00127886

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal thoughts or intention. He was asking the writer to go to general population and was making requests for various leads he had at the time. He wanted social calls without them being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he had left in the suicide watch area. His mood was not depressed or anxious. There were no signs of stress. He had planned on meeting with his attorneys to work on his legal situation.” So, there is that. And then, there is also, I don't know if this was attached. a. I don’t know how this was printed, but it also looks like all the contacts. It says, “15 contacts in one month. Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. And after the -”. It does say that there was a contact that looks like, on the 3lst. a : What does he mean by “contact”? ee : A psychology contact. ee: And then, here’s one, 8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was -- 80 EFTA00127887

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 -- being conducted. What 3 Ss a seg group. A Cc re ; revi 4 Segregation review. Oh. Oo wi w fe) B cr 9 form. Suicidal tendencies.” 10 a : No. That must be a 11 chological thing. I thought it said SRO 2 If it says SRA, that must be for SHU. 3 ee : Okay. And it says, “On 4 August lst, 2019, he denied any suicide ally, 5 friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive 16 Jewish against his religion, still denied 7 knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when 8 he was discovered with a string loosely tied 9 around his neck. Said his incident report for 20 self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is 21 talkative, but will give i hance. Noisy in 22 SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going 23 back to his normal life.” And again, it say 24 that the 2019 was with Dr. I just 25 -- EFTA00127888

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo So, I guess they did (Indiscernible ies) co 4 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible wi * > rar oO ho oO 6 a: Yeah. You don’t have to fos) is) he 0) fu 5 then maybe wo i=) 2 the bottom on this one? Mm-hmm. 4 MR. a: That wasn’t attached to the ive) 5 email. That was just a separate do 16 Ee : Oh, a separate 7 you go Can you go to 8 And this is the last 9 one to cover wha 20 email that was 23 says, “Inmate Epstein is being taken off of ch observation and needs to housed with an ” 25 appropriate cellmate. EFTA00127889

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LIMITED ies) w co wo i=) ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE Mm-hmm. says one who is attached to this sent, this was sent to. normally do, ch observation or suicide watch? Do send this out to case for this? H rt i) | is i] rt a) n to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, know, know, is coming you off. And where Some go ot) back to their units. In his case, he was going back to the Special Housing Unit O . Great Oo you that? And that to determine if a sed with another has to be inmate Qo ui) be bh 3 7 rt wo Rm mean, an inmate. ee : Well, typically, I mean, EFTA00127890

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 ~] w wo 10 11 ive) w ~ No Ww No cS , it’s just - if there’s nothing in policy that i) sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional setting, if somebody has been on, you know, attempted suicide, or attempted to self- mutilation, you usually put them in with someone. Okay. So, were you or your staff involved with the decision to have Epstein removed from suicide watch or psychological observation? Psychology makes the determination that the individual is, you know, Hh no longer suicide. This is a: Is no longer suicidal. And there is no reason for him to be on suicide or any inmate. watch. So, they either get released wherever they came from, whether it was the general population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. Hs: «So, on background on that. So, one of the individuals in psychology department -- Ee : Mm-hmm. ee : -- who would meet with Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, EFTA00127891

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LIMITED No No No No ies) w oO co ive) oO co wo ion) wi OFFICIAL USE 85 fe) 5 fn) fe) Ph ct > © ifs) ct i) uel un Q fe) = 5 = fe) rt > t 5 I p wu = 0 be an Ee: And I was informed t that is kind of pretty routine, that that is conducted in coordination with executive staff ee : Right. That is. | ti(‘iés@s -- so, that’s where I want to make sure that I'm understanding -- -- what you are saying. a : But we also do, we have what we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in our Special Housing Unit, we K oF) 3 oO © rt Bb 5 Q a] 5 o if there are any issues, that’ kay. So, is it solely, unit? Is that their call, or does th i) an influence c EFTA00127892

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL USE oo a matter experts. They are the doctors. They release someone off of suicide watch. I can't - if an individual is on suicide watch - I can't turn around and come in there, and take him off. ee : I'm not a trained psychologist. Now, I can put there. But then, you know, after it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, staff member could put him on there. reason, as far with that individual, was discussed with a and that If the decision individual concurred wi they didn't concur, though, would that matter to them? a: What do you mean, if the AW didn't concur with it? ee : I mean, I don’t want to use EFTA00127893

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 the as a telling, but they’re 2 keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. Now, let’s say ies) 4 I come in and interject and say, no, I want him 5 on there. What is my reasoning for putting him 6 on there? What medical degree do I co 9 have to justify keeping an individual on 0 suicide watch? Because now, it could go the 1 other way. I decide to turn around and do 2 something like that, I would be having a 3 conversation with you about something else. 4 Sure. 5 16 Okay. 7 h. 8 So, is it more to keep o 20 22 you know, and saying, 23 hey, we’re removing an 24 individual, and we move forward. I mean, 25 viously, we will - You know, EFTA00127894

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 88 a: Guys, I want to go for a if we had questions. continue or wait? don’t conti This is Specia am pausing the recording. the above-entitled matter went and back on the re EFTA00127895

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE Mr. plac at oo wo t we discussed was that psychology said that Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this where we talked a little bit about it. It nded like the decision to have Efrain das o a higher level the dep bos cho re might be a cellmate, we sent those na f 3 o n of staff. And because, see, my boss had to run it up to the artment. So, I do 1't know who was spoken to the department. And it got back, and my s said that, too, you know, that’s a good ic i) EFTA00127896

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 90 again? wQ ee : Okay. Great. But it was based upon a list that you provided? Because I - fast forward - I got a There were some D names. call, and we were gearing towards getting him out to general population. | ti(‘iés@s Oh, so, you wanted to actually be in general pop? a : what typically happens. You know -- I didn't want -. That’s Sure. Ee : -- you don’t want an inmate in segregation. Most of them, we’ve had a lot of high-profile individuals that come in the institution. You know, we do our intelligence gathering, to okay, what would be an appropriate unit for them to be in? And we place them. And then, we monitor them. If, you know, and that is how we move them into general population. I get a call saying, hold up on that. | tti(‘éii@s And who called you? a : Did he qualify as a pedophile? He needs to stay where he’s at. EFTA00127897

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LIMITED Oo wo Ww oO oo OFFICIAL USE 91 -. I didn't -. up on that. And then, up the names. I partment. > wu Ler Q fe) rt ct om =) w 2) 3 o Hh K Oo 3 ct a 1) a : When he first came in, the EFTA00127898

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 92 a : -- to get him out to general population. cha. So, back, you are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- 1g about -- ee : -- the whole thing, and then, even, know, coming out of p servations got in, the plan was still to get him into general population. a : I mean, we had the contacting our legal, why can't he be in general population? he talked to in the department - but this would be a good time to talk about this. Being that it was ultimat EFTA00127899

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs inmates? ee: So, here’s the problems with Ten South. It’s the terrorist unit, and there’s SAMS things in there. The amount of attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn’t have those attorneys coming up to that unit every day, and, you know, breaching the security of it, and then, tying up the movement in there, because when an attorney comes in there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it’s planned, and they are in there. Epstein’s attorneys were coming in early in the morning, and weren’t leaving until late at night. And it was about four or five of them. So -- a: And guess who’s paying his bill? ae: -- right. That’s not an appropriate unit, and that’s not what that unit is for. ee : Now, what about, like, if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels that weren’t terrorists, how did they deal with that, or did they have attorneys visiting them EFTA00127900

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 or no? 2 Ee : They did, but it wasn’t to 3 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 4 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 5 couple hours, they left. As 6 trial, then they would - you would see them more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one at 8 attorneys, they were in there from the 9 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 10 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 11 the rooms. N 3 I a =| Aa U ie) I I ive) 5 he was placed in Nine South was bec of the 16 attorney visits? 7 Ee : Well, not the attorney visits, but that is the co inmate. No =) He = QQ a 1) a No Nm > i] rt it) i) unit? 23 Ee : Special Administrative 24 Measures. That means, you know, strict 25 communication. And there’s a lot on EFTA00127901

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LIMITED ies) 6 = = i) KR oO wi C 5 @ °o rh ct J 12] a 0) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE with that unit. So, he wasn’t appropriate to be up there. ie) other high-profile inmates, Chapo, and who were some of the people that The terrorists up the non-t but he was in for ) ifs) ie] pe 12) 3 it) .Q O and had a SAMs on him. So, he -- Eee : Now, did El Chapo have a : -- he had -. No. His status was based on, and I know there was (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status io wi wu EFTA00127902

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 96 0) a : Sholty was in general population, and a SAMs was placed on him by his HN: hat was the other name again? Mm-hmm. What w El Chapo lik i) any other inmate. You know, no opriate unit Ten wanted EFTA00127903

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co ZU OFFICIAL USE w ~ would have had to have, you know, rt justifica to ion W] n I'm putti there. And there would have been push back from his attorneys. ole had the warden ue] 0) Oo ie} it) i) n't even have the ability to do that. That Q 12) i) n comes from a higher level. a : -- in essence, it does I would have had to explain and justify know, certain inmates with certain 3 placin m I re placed up there. Why w Q Mm-hmm. pre-trial individual, and needs , the w access to his attorneys, that unit is just too k -- Mm-hmm. EFTA00127904

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LIMITED 1 Oo ~] w Oo oo OFFICIAL HE: St chink he was appropriately a : Okay. So, Nine South -- him? Mm-hmm. MR. a: Do you recall if there were Chapo had left. I call with EFTA00127905

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) 20 No Wa OFFICIAL USE 99 Brooklyn. He was there. What was he a: What did ae: That’s the one that killed in lower Manhattan and ran -- a: Oh, yeah. ee: -- the vehicle into them. a: Yeah, and then the gun out of his hand. Righ a: -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). There was another guy that was, it had kicked something to do with ee: Who else? We hada terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it was -. They were all terrorists in, on All right. So, this is just discussing. It 3) EFTA00127906

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LIMITED Ww oO ~] 9 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 100 for? ee: It’s the Combined -. kind of, like, New York? Ee : -- he was in char to you, and it was on It says, “Warden, per our his primarily water in attorn EFTA00127907

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 A 1 a ifs] whether we would consider U sked, as an as 2 housing him in the cadre.” What is the cadre? 3 ae: Cadre is the camp. 5 oo is) wu Ee} 3 wu rt rt a D a) oO H ct 10 But remember, they are 1 couldn’t put him in th 2 trial. We can't mix d Wa c 3 =] fu rt @ 17) rt Oo iQ 0] ct a oO % ” we could not, oO “Later that day, but co 9 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 20 attorney P| | on the phone. He had 21 asked whether we could house Mr. Eps 22 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 23 prior suicide 24 25 It’s just, I’ve never heard of EFTA00127908

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LIMITED ies) w oO ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 102 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers would be somebody that I was familiar with. a: Since they’re probably charging him $2,000 an hour. ee: “He acknowledged that he understood. To my recollection, neither attorney referenced consideration for suicide watch or psychological observation during conversation. Please let me know oO ” if you need any further information.” Now, was this just a request to any contact that he had with his attorn obviously, of when he was found. would -- ee : -- he’s talking about context, just literally the previous day -- | tti(‘éii@s -- that he was looking for different housing type arrangements. EFTA00127909

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LIMITED 1 Oo ~] w oO oo 95 OFFICIAL U That ya was nothing that was i Mm- hmm. But all right. If -. was $1,000 a charging. Now, this answers So, this actually , it says s that same thing that we So, it looks like July nd Mr. And previously, n the subject liner. EFTA00127910

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo 95 OFFIC through. we're almost halfv Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible *01:19 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking about, tom but did you Ee : -- was Friday. Friday, I Saturday. a : All right. But did y EFTA00127911

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co its) No No Wa i) OFFICIAL 105 USE No. I had to respond, if suicide August 10th -- was Mm-hmm. -- yeah, I had to respond if This is All right. just be put in here, in these are the reason Mm-hmm. based upon being so rr riday, A working that day. was urday, August 10th. Again, EFTA00127912

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LIMITED ho No i) ie) Ww w oO wo Ww oO its) Ww w OFFICIAL USE who was showing MR. a: ee : 90, think, involved the not, u just initial correctional who was, basical with Epst rrectional that keep a dai ones Like, R&D And th I'm date. and ein during that d 106 ly I ate? wouldn't do to EFTA00127913

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need , to reference it, and again, it’s just if we ies) need to look at who was working, and what 4 position -- There’s two on there. wi -- and what. Yes, oO 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 10th. This oo Ww rr a £ + + mw rt 12) S ® L n Fh Oo ial Hed = a G n rr wo w is ct cually was not - the August 10th one - was i=) not attached to your email. Right? 11 MR. a: Yeah. You are right. 2 ee : So, the August 9th one was attached, but the August 10th wasn’t. ive) c uw K oO fw i= we had to pull f fea) ct Ss a] ct Fh K Oo 3 i} i} -- just for full co 9 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 20 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 24 this requirement? 25 ee : That they were notified? EFTA00127914

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 2 or Mrs. Imeri sent out ies) cellmate. The one 7 a : Who was required to make uw aa wu 0 wu 8 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 9 aware of that requirement? i=) a : Well, the captain pa 1 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 2 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, ive) if th oO y are required a cellmate -- 5 a: -- that, you know, that he - are to require cellmate, if somebody oO leaves or goes out. 7] a] Now, someone such co 9 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 prior, should all staff know that that pe 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 23 In the Special He ing Unit, 24 there would know t he was 25 cellmate. EFTA00127915

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 109 a : Do you believe that there was any anybody - especially anybody that’ it] a quarterly bit of post there -- working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do n you believe that there could be a reason why would say, we didn't know he was supposed nk that would be hh that usually work up there, were up there. It 7] s@ you had the staf should be, it should have been annotated on his - what do you call it? - it’s calleda mean, oh, the 292. You’ re talking about the SHU -- - file. The SHU file. It should be annotated on the SHU file because, when you come in, you have to annotate on there his EFTA00127916

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 110 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it would have been on there, it would have been on on the hot list, though? a: Seizures. You know, stuff like that? oint being is, do staff that is working in EFTA00127917

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 111 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - found the -- | ti(‘iés@s SHU staff that is working in there at that time, he’s 24 hours b asically gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. cellmate? No, because they did know, because I - from what I understand - someone get into that. Now then, sc a: One other question. I want to a: That means I'm going to >t in here. Is that going o EFTA00127918

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U were talkin« situation something. a: Oh, no. No. This is just a loudly, will | tti(‘éii@s All right. We’re going ct 5) o ct ra o c oO + u D j | > D wu a = D K ry 7) 112 EFTA00127919

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LIMITED oO ~] io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 113 a : I don't know if that was | ti(‘iés@s Then we will wait. kidding about the You know why called Gangs of New York. ee : That’s a great movie. a: And he - anda and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron a: And I had a wild H ro) ny] 7 o H the show, and an exact EFTA00127920

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 ies) w ~] oo wo ive) ~ ee : That’s super cool. more questions before we get into these documents. Were any plans made on how to wu ddress this situation for if Reyes was removed as Epstein’s cellmate? Like, if he -. Because I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. (Indiscernible *01:26:13). a: No. I mean, the plan would have been, you know, we would have assessed it, because usually, you get ahead of time, we would have just said, okay, when is -? When Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, then before he was placed back in that cell, an sessment would have been made. ee : Okay. Now, what is your understanding of what happened with inmate 77) a Reyes on August 93th, 2019? a: When I got back after the fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him from the institution. EFTA00127921

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 115 of people we’ve talked to thought he went to court, and that at court, it was determined he ack. Had you heard that? I heard, too. I going to court. And th guess word got back that he wasn’t coming back. That’s what I heard. So, I never got (Indiscernible *01:27:00). a: It’s either a good day in court, or a bad day in court. But I don’t know, and I don’t know if people will sz that he left, and t him from the off EFTA00127922

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U With inmate as And it cumentation I have in my you know, -- things. Then down cumentation re: 116 EFTA00127923

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 documentation regarding WAB 1g 7 So, wing court documentat 8 8, 9.” What d tation is 9 1 I Mm-hmm. t ioe) Our Receiving 14 They must have 15 ase him, and that he 16 17 | tti‘ésC*“r So, would it be at all- I ates something called, like, a c fo = 5 ra) z ee t 0 laf o nM] + ie) 19 court production list, or -- -- would that be what 2 sh the court production list, 23 or think -- 24 -- 25 -- or, a PP-38, or EFTA00127924

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LIMITED ies) io ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 118 something, or whatever -? a : I think, and I'm speculating now, it was probably the court list, and it re sending him off to court. time. EFTA00127925

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 + But -- ies) : -- but that’s what would 4 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to w to the R&D. produce Re 6 a: No. Not necessarily. What 7 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call fos) i= ‘go rt 12] U = a U, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He oO a wu 13) Q oO i. KH rt. Or he’s being released. So, there i=) wouldn’t have been a document sent up. 2 talked to said R&D we created this 3 document. 5 5 ’ 16 7 So 8 then, and they all said it was 9 this court production list that you sent out 20 emails to -. 21 Ee : Unless it’s sent in the 22 early morning. 24 that’s sent electronically. It’s 7) not something meth generate, print out -- EFTA00127926

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 120 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ee : -- and hand to different, the ops lieutenant has one, every housing unit has one. Internal goes around and collects people, based upon it or something. I think. And then -- ee : -- then they basically destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing is maintained in the system. They just use a template, and create a new one for every day. a: So, that must have been the early court movement. So, I was under the impression that he was, he left in the afternoon. So, when typically in the afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, we got one that’s leaving. So, I assumed he had left that afternoon. ee : Okay. So, is it, then, are you not - then to answer that question - are you not sure exactly what she’s referring to when she says “court documentation regarding WAB”? ee: Like, the way you explained t, then that means they were talking about EFTA00127927

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LIMITED o oO 121 y, what Do y WAB, With the time of just talking about EFTA00127928

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U this. So, this is an email that was 122 3 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, some Oo w 13 15 Oo 17 EEE: oben. 18 EFTA00127929

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LIMITED Oo) ~~] not -. It’s not -- We’re think is another email 2019, at 3:36 p.m. document, prisoner schedule repor it’s EFTA00127930

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 3 4 e MC -- 7 6 here, Re 9 And it just 1 MCC New York.” And right Oo oo 95 EFTA00127931

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 5 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 6 ive) oO co 22 ee : The Marshals -. 23 a: And would that be the judge or EFTA00127932

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo judge. I don't know how the Marshals ordination, make here is u are talking get into ee : From the Marshal EFTA00127933

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LIMITED oO ~] io w oO wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 127 Kh o Yeah. Now, it explains that to have him go a: That’s, I think, t ee : So, court documentation king at upon wha EFTA00127934

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE from the Marshal Service -- Efrain Re whom -. Is it -? I’ve been told ne at the MCC because they knew he was in the SHU should hav Because he was Epstein’s cellmate. What should have happened once, on August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late Ee : As far as Epstein getting a ee : The notification is being made that this person is being transferred, n And so, what this, I'm going to read t information -- EFTA00127935

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LIMITED oO io I Q > + ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 2019, to the warden - y “Subject pass fy] oO Q information from cial Housing Unit.” On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at approximately 1:5 Epstein a: I’ll go get that. EFTA00127936

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U to R&D -- ee : Spoke with both Ep and stated to Mr. - I think going on. ee : This is the real big warden. EFTA00127937

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LIMITED ies) io ive) oO co No Wa OFFICIAL USE 131 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. -- for us being here. So, I apologize if you’re going into that, but information -- gone. The conversation with Epstein and Reyes, going to get you a new cellmate. EFTA00127938

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 132 w I a: Which mean WAB means what? coming back. But back? that you’re not anymore, and in that con\ or present during that he’s not going to have a immediate future? until abo knows that, EFTA00127939

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) w ~ over the next, say, 24 hours, he’s not going to have a cellee. es: <:. EE. =< orc, tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. a: Okay. So, Epstein would know that he hasn’t - going to have a cellmate. : Yeah, yeah. So, thi ‘ » , isn’t part of the theory. What my question to w your client is, what should have happened based upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The contact with the Marshal Service, telling him that he’s being transferred. The fact that R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, and R&D actually logged him out of our system. happened was, this information should have been passed up to the supervisors. ee : At what point? a: See, with the, this information coming in, as far as, you know, when R&D -- EFTA00127940

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 134 -- typically, it would come Once it got up to that, to the Special Hou sing Unit, the lieutenants should have been notified. lieutenant? lieutenant, whoever was the operations Okay. And which Whoever was the lieutenant. ee : -- the SHU lieutenant is also on leave ist on If the -. Right. warden on leave, the SHU lieutenant on leave. But we do have an ops lieutenant, we do have an activities lieutenant. And we do have a captain. ee : So, you should have let the operations lieutenant know, if you didn't have a SHU lieutenant. They, in turn, would let the captain know, and the captain would push it up to the execs Then, we would have to come to a determination on who we were going to EFTA00127941

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U ee : Now, if the operations returning back. he might this information EFTA00127942

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LIMITED ies) w oO co io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 13 oO as our WAB. 7] : th that knowled that he went to that a reason that he thin court, and might be coming back? a : I can't interpret what his He could have been reading, inme go out to court and come back. know. I can't speak to what he read. Or why he made wouldn’t have most to court, ee : The point being here -- EFTA00127943

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 13 -- he didn't go to court. an inmate is listed Mm-hmm. -- With All Belongings -- MR. a: -- what is understanding? was an unique situation, EFTA00127944

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) or it happens quite often? Ee : No. I wouldn't say. I would say that it’s probably unique. But usually, WAB, they’re gone. MR. a: So, as the operations lieutenant, if you see somebody listed as WAB, should he have understood that that person is gone, and not coming back? ee: Should have. But then, you’re talking off the document. I don't know what document they read. So, I don't want to speculate what, you know, was it, you know, send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't know what document. But I'm saying, if it is this document, that clearly stated WAB. Ee : Okay. But as far as your concern, it doesn't sound like what you were saying is, a. who was the OIC at the time, should have he notified the ops lieutenant? a: Yes. Whoever is - yeah - in there should have notified the operations lieutenant, hey, Reyes left, and -- a: He needs a cellmate. ee : -- he needs a cellmate, EFTA00127945

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 23 OFFICIAL USE solely on the shoulders Yeah. and That’s uld notification erations lieuten that And end of the have been So, would i So, balance. the other shif i] people t his own who -- was the made to th th otain. o Car He needs a cellmate would nobody is in cell ina t fall , what t? hat are same, EFTA00127946

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LIMITED ioe) w io oO its) OFFICIAL USE would have made, and when we would hav formulate, for Epstein? this because, but would be the OIC, that. So, for inst 140 And they are su lat got pushed up, we would have to we get a cellmate for, EFTA00127947

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 w wo 10 11 ive) A the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he would be the one to responsible to provide the ops lieutenant, but then, the following shift, would it be -- ee: Whoever is the -- ee: -- the next OIC -- ee : -- or would also the people that are working in that unit, the other SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the OIC is really the person making that notification. 133] < oO H a) ion .e) Q aa wu er) wu responsibility for their safety. Everybody. I mean -- ae: -- I might be the OIC, but I have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, you know what? They might need a cellmate, because I, in essence, I can have an individual assigned to that post, and they’re just filling in for somebody that, the regular person that’ s up there. And then, I have the regular people working up there, who are familiar with what’s EFTA00127948

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LIMITED No No No No ies) w oO fos) ive) oO oo wo ion) wi OFFICIAL USE going on. So, it’s kind of everyone’s res ponsibility. You know? equally responsible, then, for this? That informa working there and didn't pass a: Can you say? Don’t gues would be able to say. H mean, it it should have been passed on. So, I don know the dynamics to, as far as -- up there. You know lieutenant coming around? Was the cé th o How busy they were. not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was on. However, we do have records that the activities lieutenant at least visited -- 142 d of was tion ne , was ptain? was not EFTA00127949

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 143 lieutenants. I don't know if you are familiar with the cial Housing Unit, but it a very busy unit. ee : You know, you’re giving out rS. You re giving out recreation. You’re doing a whole lot of stuff. running around all day, and, you know, sometimes things happen. case, wasn’t Eps inmate? At that time. a : I mean, besides my terrorist inmates that I had up there on Ten South. ee : Well, I guess, at least found it pre important to notify? Especially they - and I da t know that we EFTA00127950

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co io ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE 144 brought this today - but there was even signs “MM up that they andatory 30- minute rounds on Epstein, sig something, you know, along the lines. mea like, do this. You kr No. I mean, I guy up. ee: -- and that is where -. EFTA00127951

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE you know, hesita something wrong, but really, who dropped the ball here? Knowing, you could take a loo 145 But again, as clear. This one e EFTA00127952

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 look, just so I have, my mind i lear. There 2 is a prisoner’s schedule. The prisoner’s 3 schedule literally means prisoner’s schedule. 5 prisoner’s schedule report is something like 6 this, but it will tell you that they are either 7 going to, like, transfer, or they are going to 8 go to court. Whereas this other document that 9 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 10 transfer 11 ae: Okay. But there is nothing 2 that says recreation, personnel care. It’s 3 or leaving the 4 j 5 Yeah. Because it’s a 16 prisoner’s schedule. 9 20 it’s, like, what they Yeah. No. It’s 22 li their daily schedule is. Like, U.S. Marshal EFTA00127953

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co wo OFFICIAL USE 147 provided to the to produce, that correct? what we know very least producing, at WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. Ee : Mm-hmm. there? Like, who, in your If it went to the was the lieutenant’s ould ha picked it up. Working in the unit. It should om have been passed up to the lieutenant’s office. So, there were a couple of saf is] i) caught it. EFTA00127954

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE drop n, if we’re looking ying going by an He: §= ell, not only the ema I can understand if ae : -- it would be hard to didn't know. This one, I could see know, the prisoner’s if this whole thing, don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. 148 at il, EFTA00127955

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 149 sent with this. This was sent specifically, u 3 0 t py a. O 7 i | D 5 ct Hc} i cr n t > 1) just that. It’s ee : But speaking with R&D, produced this list, as well as which it listed you know if they are the lieutenant’s EFTA00127956

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 they actually look at that list and saying, or ased upon the busyness of their Ww Qu wu ket "0 4 ee: Yeah. I wouldn’t speculate. I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- w 7 ee: -- lieutenant is looking at 8 stuff. I mean, it’s, like, the documents. wo No. I mean, but should i=) the question? 2 are coming through, on who’s leaving? 3 ee : No, no, no. This would 4 be a physical paper that they were provided. 16 Ee : Internal would go around 7 and provide everybody with this physical paper 8 and then, they apparently 9 end of the day. 20 Right. So, I don't know if 21 the, you know, when internal ge the forms to 22 go, they are dropping it off at different 23 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 24 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I 25 guess this probably be the only document -- EFTA00127957

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LIMITED ioe) io oO No Wa OFFICIAL USE 151 No, no, no. o i) ar up. We are being told, by the - and it would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven’t found that this is what The court list. But it’s like a -- And it -. ee : -- from my understanding, it is an informal document that they are just providing so around and dr EFTA00127958

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 152 ee: In the morning. Exactly. », yeah, that’s not on record. Right. So, I guess the stion, though, being that they had these court lists, is another one of thes Or is that really just for the Special Housing Unit? ee: I think they -. You mean as far as the court list, I don’t under Q back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We were notified on the 8th. He left on the morning of the 9th. 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and we knew for almost 48 hours. happened, and who didn't do their jo really the question. EFTA00127959

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 a: And like I said before, when 2 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew ies) that he was leaving, it should have been passed 4 up to his super. 6 a: This guy is leaving. But w 7 then, okay, let’s say the supe, or whoever is 8 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 9 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 10 needs a cellmate. And notified the lieutenant 11 that he needs a cellmate. 2 ee : And that goes back to my, 3 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 4 made that notification. 15 GN:_—«s Should have said it. It 16 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 7 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 8 you. It’s everybody’s job up there to say, 9 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 20 we need to do 21 HE: 8nd would that be the 22 case for, when he left during the day shift -- 24 ee : -- the next shift is the 25 night shift, when he would have - I believe EFTA00127960

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 during the night shift - he would have come 2 back -- were doing rounds, they would have noticed that w 6 Reyes wasn’t there in the first place. But also, certainly, when they brought -- 8 ee : Epstein back. -- Epstein back to his oO Oo 0 uy b hb H an D 6 oO = O Cc an d have been no cellmate in should have known he was nN K oO be Wa wu is] ) aa a =] nly rt 0) 4 Eee : And would it be the same 5 thing for the morning shift? That tt would 16 know that Epstein was in there alone? to i) 7 ee: cause if the morning shift 8 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 9 realized he was in there by himself. No =) So, should have every 21 single shift reported it to the ops lieuten 22 that there is no one -? 23 Ee : Whoever caught it should 24 have, you know, let’s say one shift missed it, 25 the next shift should have picked up and said, EFTA00127961

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 155 you know, called and said, lieutenant, we got a Monday morning quarterback because of the result here, but what is your - as the warden th oO Fh oO institution, on days - how do you a: It’s not following the directive. I mean, and then, look at result. EFTA00127962

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 156 working - said, what happened up the ops lieutenant, or are you the SHU lieutenant? know when I Who was my And ee : And did you ever speak with either P| or | about this? it, was the day -. That, I got that the f, when I had to go up to, I think the ak with them about this? them, and EFTA00127963

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo was during the interrogation, recal to OFFICIAL USE 157 a: He had it on him. the U.S. Attorney that was had seen a : No. I think I -. I don’t t I know I had l when I first saw it, it. And I don't know if I had gotten it up to my boss. And then, you weren’t giving it 01:55:18), it would have EFTA00127964

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 a: Because we had told him that ies) w is) not including when and the FBI, did w = t ct > fu 5 K Oo 3 o hh ad ° 3 ct Zz 0) 6 7 got the 8 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 9 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 10 The, you know, es were given. What 1 happened? 2 ee : And when you asked what happened, was there a verbal response? ive) t a o H 0 het ie} c rt oO ra QQ 7 Ee : That they knew he was to -. That | had passed it on 9 to other individuals about it. 21 that -. What is your thought process o 22 a. who is the one who actually presented yes to R&D and WAB, what is co Ph 24 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior 25 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I EFTA00127965

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LIMITED ioe) io w oO wo OFFICIAL USE 159 it on to the next guy, saying that Oo is ite} Cc bt its] ite} oO rt to do it. Ee: Do you think he should have done it, passed the infraction on during his shift? ee : Yeah. Absolutely. It been letting tt - we got ny] i= K rt fam fu rt s ) om } n rt ie] oO 0) | | juld clarify that. MR. ae: I think on the Monge. down to R&D. though. MR. a: = -- EFTA00127966

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 160 the one that brought him down to the - Reyes - down to R&D. ae: Then that would make sense. Because if Monge is internal, internal takes ee : And then, if somebody is going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then it would be SHU staff taking him. ae : All right. So, if Mong is the one who is actually providing him to oO R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he was WAB, to mak ifications? oO rt any no Ee : I don’t know if internal -. You know, Monge was internal, and I don’t know if he knew, you know, the situation. be internals job - if they come and collect pically, would it somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell control, or the ops lieutenant, to say this guy is off our books, or anything, or -? of inmates that move in and out. ee : So, he wouldn’t be able to EFTA00127967

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 keep track of every particular inmate that is going and comir ioe) 7 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 8 initial and date io get them out o Top of this, 13 14 Eee : This guy. You know, this 15 O All right Let me take this. eting, did t o 7) know c fea] ue] K pb. ie] K ct fe) ct a BP “i wo rred at 21 ee: Wait, prior to when? a : Oh, no. I knew he -. I 24 heard that. You kno No Wa After his death, that ff] 25 he was EFTA00127968

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LIMITED Oo oo OFFICIAL USE Transferred. That he was transferred. When I Marshal No? Well, Oth, did was Octo August 10th. I found out when I came i that morning, because I -- bh 3) a P- you didn't know that he didn't have a cellmate on Augus Now, who was ultima required - or came in on Saturday. i] EFTA00127969

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] is) Ww responsible to make sure that Epstein has a cellmate? ee: I mean, if it’s the directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is working decide - passes it up, and then, that ensures, you know, to make sure he has a cellmate. So -. ee : So, SHU staff. ee: Whoever was working up there. ee : Okay. When you say working up there, does that include, like, lieutenants doing lieutenant rounds and things like that? Or -? a: Well, yeah, from what transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based on the email that, you know, they knew he was leaving, but as far as when the finality of it was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, something should have went off on somebody to make some notifications. EFTA00127970

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) OFFICIAL USE 164 MR. (J: 9 m-hon. a: Wait, wait. The notification. Would that go up as high as you? If someone ee : They would send it up to the y would tell the cap ciate warden in who -- gotcha. a: We would have to sit down okay, of all the av 2ilable individuals that are on the unit now, who can we house ee : Now, what about in the y weren’t working that day, would that -- CE: xe bnn. called EFTA00127971

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LIMITED Oo) Oo That wou know? two. And it wouldn’ w, what is I don’t know if I cutl ciate war ing warden left rt 11S a EFTA00127972

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 166 but what, is that mainly to assist mon fu b 0) O ct a O a) 0) ee : I think, I think we did talk about it, we talked about d because the ir tution coming and ing -- EFTA00127973

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 PF : Mm-hmm. 4 we would now consider 5 be just the whole new -? Oo 11 MR. J: 9 vm-hon.. 12 ee : All right. Now, we’re counts. Mm-hmm. 15 ee : So, this is an email sent Oo c fe) 5 | =) 3 =| 19 -- it was sent on 2 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 22 ee : This shows, ZA is w i) an o EFTA00127974

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LIMITED OFFIC was Oo w ere is the count, it shows 72 at - what oO oo 24 you know, as 25 So, the count EFTA00127975

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LIMITED oO ~] io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE slip said 2:00 a.m., ee: No. The institution. whole. MCC does a count -- Yeah. The count. count Actually, let What is slip, what the with institutional count? So, is, on the EFTA00127976

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 units call in the count to control cent 3 count number? oO Kh oO counting an io count the 11 bod 12 And then, they take that 13 total amount of inmates, and they call that 14 into 15 call that into the t o 0 oO 5 rt K Oo a 17 | tti‘ésC*“r And where does the their numbers from? oo wo This is what is called an EFTA00127977

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LIMITED oO io Ww oO oo wo KK Ww OFFICIAL USE unt again. based upon what inm system. upon how many inmat pack and So, the El is created ates are listed within y Right. The count slips i) s they actually count. What they count. And the purpose of that counting inmates, The countability of the EFTA00127978

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co © No N No WW OFFICIAL USE 172 oH) @ 5 rt wu o 0 c rt O 3 @ hour later, at a c it) ct b oO ct a H ct ie) J 7 =] Q @ al K 12) 3 J ct fe) } ie) oO @ rt = oO @ 5 b No o Oo wu 5 wu 5] o Do you remember what your And then, this one is rself. together. remember what your findings —9 were there? ee : I don’t remember. Because are utenant is supposed to and then review documentation. at happened with the discrepancy. EFTA00127979

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 Oo don’t mind, w 11 ee : I don’t recall what the wi oO 21 found. 22 a : I don’t because it was just 23 so much going on. 95 EFTA00127980

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) OFFICIAL USE 174 what, how I responded to them on that day. Do you remember learning accuracy or inac accuracy and inaccurac a : Like, if the counts were ee: I don’t recall that. ae : You don’t recall -- ee : No. I can't think of t ee : -- finding out about find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not B “+ cond the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 2019? ee: If they did rour or not? | tsti‘i‘iz*@r Correct. Did you find out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- minutes rounds, as well as the institution counts on August 9th and 10th? a : I don't know if it the fact that I was told that the EFTA00127981

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) © No Wa OFFICIAL USE make their rounds. was, t rounds, but that in done. y put it in the l And I all a 175 don’t recall if it something that came You know, this, you up re didn't at rounds and counts? that weekend, then, by y l anything about least everything wa Mondé Right. So -- wthing lese j but on the 10th or - I didn't -- find out? - hear anything about, heard that conduct of their EFTA00127982

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) co wo No NN No Wa No OFFICIAL USE That they didn' That they know, like, d to come but it was a. and he in the wouldn’t this And was morning? This we because people were telling me Mm-hmm. I wanted to was all and talk. didn't want to come up What ct ‘ > and that’s spot, encountered him to do anything, did because I’ve known Y a with like any it. But I hay known up and speak with, come up. 10th, when with he was make he And he just, he him. rect you on je never him not EFTA00127983

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 177 a: She was new. So, she had know, first come in. something -- rt J uv rt P- o) And I had -. -- you would have said to EFTA00127984

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 178 I'm following them, o I'm not doing it. I on probation, some time in the street. re getting fired. that Ms. || would have heard me thing EFTA00127985

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO OFFICIAL USE 179 All right. going This is just my little list that and then to just show On this going to be the count on cond. EFTA00127986

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LIMITED a: -- (Indiscernible *02:10:4 p.m. -- MR. a: You told him about over MR. ae: No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00 Midnight. EFTA00127987

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LIMITED ies) w oO co i=) ioe) OFFICIAL USE 181 these are basically the time period in question. Everywhere from 4 p.m. through day, on August 9th Here are the lieutenant logs. And thes I'm going, t going over so I'm not blowi g things out were able to obtain. So, this was froma And then, we got the daily EFTA00127988

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co 20 No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 182 a : So, where would this -? uld have been first. So, ee : Mm-hmm. ee : And Saturday, she sends it at August 10th, 2019, at a : Mm-hmm. ee : And on Sunday, August llth, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. PF : Mm-hmm. Eee : Now, reviewing all of the came out prior to that tty much between all the vario lieutenants. Do she didn't send this one I know Epstein at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they were sent out much earlier than that. EFTA00127989

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co io ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE 183 BE: enn. sent it out after incident, and after, you rything happened, but do was weird that that one out at 9:26 a.m., when her what I'm 8 7 w cr tn n w ke Lo 3 Q . iam i wasn’t at the -. When I got there, Lieutenant oO cat i 0) QO + a: -- who contacted me | tti‘ésC*“r She was supposed to be r, and I don't know when she was relieved. She didn't leave until after this was ee : I don’t recall her being in EFTA00127990

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) No Wa OFFICIAL USE 184 the institution around found - she actually went into the hel with ding. And then, she went back, and she did a : And she sent it. things on the compu she was she said tech guy. And, ee: And I'm looking at this, but n | | had told left. I was under the impression, wi and s! So, do you hat odd, then, that she was still there until -- ee : Yeah. I didn't, I didn't -. EFTA00127991

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LIMITED Ww w wo Ww its) No Wa OFFICIAL i) ah = oO n talk didn't know technically, when talking t Lieutenan entire time. is kind of completed you will write and such. that suspicious to EFTA00127992

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LIMITED ioe) io wv 3) A > i) fu ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE ty + curious as to why you didn't log it dow something. mean, I don’t want problem kind her. volved wit I mean, but it is *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- a : -- I mean -- a: -- (Indiscernible *02: ee : -- that’s why I went Oh, no. I wouldn’t put it £ I EFTA00127993

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 Can your 4 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 5 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 6 _- 8 u 1 with this? 11 ee : As far as doing harm to him? 12 ee : Keeping his cell door 13 And ing another cell for 14 know -- 15 I wouldn’t -- 16 18 EFTA00127994

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 up. I know but I wouldn’t go position to fu 5 HN: Sell, is she in io 3 and the range h. Someboc would have to let her down there. 22 ee : Do you know if she was a: I don’t know what their EFTA00127995

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ioe) io ioe) H * i) oO relationship was. She was the shift Fs) tt fe) K the 8th, I log for it. So, I think and the 10th is eep looking at this pi I think t a bitche 17) are a working ha Ee : I don’t think the 9t Yeah. Just the 10th. cond bP N oO A 7, I brought I got in le. h is set. EFTA00127996

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LIMITED o Ph wo Ww oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 190 Sorry. a : Can I see the time (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? with that. MR. a: So, those two. MR. ae: That’s the previous date we (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All right. So, what did you want to count numbers, next. a : Wait. Which is the one -? a : So, this is from Friday, EFTA00127997

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LIMITED Oo wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 191 August 9th. a : Okay. This is at what time? watch. morning rt o) wu — fa Q it was, the email was Her -- MR. ae: -- everything - is back. EFTA00127998

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 igust 10th. -- no, I get that. So, she 3 started Her shift was on 4 0 So, she 5 8 be Thursday into Friday. io F Ww ct J p. 0 w its) | \ f o ct x jen rat] he ry rt Q y rw o bh ct Q s) 0] rt s) o m =] # 3 iQ = wu ct QO I 2 bh io) H ct Kh (e) KR ct + @ 17 Now, what is the -? Which log 19 : So, this is the day of. 22 s is, we are going 23 the day before, 24 and we can look to 25 t - So, if EFTA00127999

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LIMITED Oo wo fe) oo OFFIC on the lieutenant’ its) all the way down to -. MR. a: So, the count -- —-- we want to individual, Iam Ferna *02:19:31). Who is on Eee : From the SHU. So, if you back to clarify something with -- did it. Right? EFTA00128000

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 194 MR. a: The 10th morning. Saturday morning. tein was found. s log. thing, though - they all if] I it out the day before. 4 0 Q nT] ket oOo @ Hh Oo rs D combined it. If you look 2rything combined. MR. a: It goes from morning watch, into -- EFTA00128001

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 195 1 Okay. 3 right, bud. I think she’s just doing the Oo Oo EFTA00128002

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 196 a.m., but got That’s right. Oo ~] 10 ae : -- or something else. c ie) P 0 > J D 13 14 R&D. 15 F o Ae a T > 0 D t end of this shows 18 EFTA00128003

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co io ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE 197 be 72 inmates there. ee : Now, look at the shift 10th, when this person started their a : And the institutional at 12 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there submitted a count slip for Here you go. yeah. There. So, see? EFTA00128004

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 03) N 1 Although, the institutional count say 2 Now, not Re. but the next one 3 the next ops lieutenant shows that 4 73 is what is written in this. She went back 5 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 6 because it was determined -- 7 ee: That he was on the outcount, 8 and on -- 10 a : -- (Indiscernible 11 *02:22:57) 2 ee : And so, Fernandez was 3 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 4 on this. “One SHU correction. Fernandez dry 15 cell.” So, at a.m., and we do have 16 Fernandez right here. 7 MR. a: Looking back. 8 ee : Okay. this just 9 says, this is what happened with him. He was 20 found to have contraband, that he was providing 21 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 22 like, I think 1:( p.m. on August 9th. He was 23 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 24 never -- EFTA00128005

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LIMITED oO w ot) oO OFFIC AL USE 199 SHU. reflecting -- what - that’s what, according to the was suppo to be in there. But if they had They would have kr and I guess as the warden, would were not act conducting their counts? a : They weren’t counting. And EFTA00128006

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 cht. 2 Ee : There should have been a 3 count slip for him over there. So, what should 4 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 5 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 6 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 7 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 8 him should have did a count slip on him. And 9 then, whoever his back up was should have done 10 a count slip. 11 ee : And this is, from my 2 review of everything -- 3 ee: Mm-hmm. 4 Eee : -- this is what I found. 15 I don’t want to put my words into | 16 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to ~ you. It says, “Count discrepancy on the August 8 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 9 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 20 lieutenant log from August 9th, 2019.” So, 21 that’s what we are looking at here. 23 ee: “The day began with 77 24 inmates assigned to ZA.” Or the SHU. “The 25 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA EFTA00128007

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. Reyes was removed from the institution and does not - and should not - appear on any counts at this time. At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 inmates assigned to ZA.” With one in attorney conference, which was Epstein. “This indicates that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip shows 75. Inaccurate. It should have reflected 74 because, although there were 75 inmates assigned to the SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There were no inmates assigned to RA on the El institutional count, and there was no count slip for RA, eyes on count.” This is where the problem begins. ME: in-brn. ee : “At 6:34 p.m., inmate EFTA00128008

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 w ~] wo 10 11 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate | | (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:15) and William is moved to ZA, to suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates assigned to RA. The ZA eye n on count slip shows 73.” Oh, this is another one. I don’t n think we brought this. “One of the counts actually shows 73 plus one.” Do we have that in there? MR. a: The 10:00 p.m. a : I admire your guys’ (Indiscernible *02:26:48). ee : Yeah. You would also -. This is all probably -- MR. QJ: 973 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). ee : -- all Chinese to you. ee : That’s how our count slips - EFTA00128009

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LIMITED 1 o Oo OFFICIAL about. and this, which is interesting as you notice, cr This one sé when did this EFTA00128010

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 is an e you are 2 You can't auld : Or, in this case one beca. the accurate 8 wouldn't write w minus wri unt on there. fF fF A N 12) | | 14 or 74, 15 17 a: All right. Guys, I'm to i ct S Pp. Q | | EFTA00128011

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) 20 No Wa OFFICIAL USE 205 a : -- there is no such thing as been an outcount do have been caught, wh lieutenant was, be have to, you know, on each a count, and review tt a : Yeah. Unless, I don't know I would want to EFTA00128012

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 206 standard pract I just want to know -. This one. a : -- then that’s how || + my question is then, EFTA00128013

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 207 nt being, ee : The SHU counts? a: This was still on the the warden ag iducted in the SHU, from a certain time EFTA00128014

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 MR. a: Do you want to ask about the What about it? ies) Ww 0 w 3 6 you just - initialing and just dati co actually removed from the SHU -- io fF Ww od i] | | 14 RA for - RA, I 15 the count slip, 16 t c ° fos) 1 rr 21 moved there around the 22 9th, 2019, who would h g him into 23 keying him out of the SHU, and placin 24 the RA, so that the count would be accurately EFTA00128015

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) w oO wo OFFICIAL USE 209 a : SHU would have notified control center, that we are moving one over to Ee: And by that notification, 2y also say, can you please key him out, and into? Or is that just automatically done by control? HS: el), t made to control that inmate ification is such is R&D. And t + you Who is that? EFTA00128016

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. FJ: «and it looks like he 2 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified ies) control -- -- that an inmate was being w a 6 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 7 *02:31:20). 9 wouldn’t (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 10 MR. a: He doesn't recall -- 2 a: But then, while the counts 3 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 4 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 5 need to do a count slip because I ve an 16 inmate down there. 7 ae: Is this where somebody disappears, that we’re looking for? co Right. 20 MM: 8si2in, 1 told you, this 21 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 22 say what does the warden, you know, and the 23 boss of this place, what is his take on these 24 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot 25 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to EFTA00128017

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 figure out why these things went wrong. So, this is -. Let me just make sure, before we move on, that I got everything. All right? So, first, before we get into rounds, when a lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- ME: s—bon. a : -- are they required to conduct a round of the inmates going up and down the different tiers, or does the round consist of just checking in with the officers to make sure everything is okay? a: Well, you check the officer to make sure they are all right, and you check the documentation. So, you check, you know, you edit, you would have to review the post orders also. To state what their duties are. I mean, all of us had different, you know, I was a lieutenant, so it was different things you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make sure, you know, the officers checked off, you know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. I would check to see if medical came up. So, it would factor and depend on what shift you went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates are up, so you’re going, you know, you can go EFTA00128018

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 around. Evening shift, you can see what’s 2 going on. The midnight shift, they’re 3 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 4 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 5 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 6 documentation. 7 a : Now, as the warden, did 8 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 9 range when they were doing their lieutenant 10 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 11 specifically when they are, like, signing off 2 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 3 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 4 These are round sheets that -- 7 a. where it shows the different 8 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 9 round. 22 a: -- what the lieutenants are 23 checking for is accuracy of the officer’s rt i} 24 rounds. EFTA00128019

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 a: So, what they are checking is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are not being done, you know, so, you know, then needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is what the issue was. But if they are signing it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you know, that the time that the round will put down, that they were down. ee : Now, what would be -? This is the round, it looks lie for 8/8. Can you think of a reason why these wouldn’t be done? But they would be signed off on right here? a : lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was Let me see. So, if a empty like this, then it is a problem. 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing Because you have this that they were conducted, but this lieutenant signed it. this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks That’s a problem. The same thing. We go, like they didn't even sign it until here. On 213 it EFTA00128020

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 2 a : Wait. Did you print tI Oo Oth, w y other thing I 10 can think of, 11 something, I might ot) oO oo 95 EFTA00128021

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 215 mean its) a: -- yeah. This is wro this -- listed as some the checks weren’t done. ike, this lieutenant is signing, it ial © Q. fe) 0 wo you think that is the reason why thi 7 morning watch lieuten , well, that lieutenant gning it here, EFTA00128022

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 216 ME: che same date. don't know who it was - but this (Indiscernible *02 how those 30- minute. That’s the I don't know who Who it was. (Indis ernible * 19). Cer but whomever it was during those Same thing. H om ny] rt it) just when I think | left his shift, or somewhere around EFTA00128023

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LIMITED ho No i) ie) ioe) w oO io ioe) oO its) Wa wi OFFICIAL USE miscount, right? a : Mm-hmm. ee : We’re not -- a] 7 tal I tH) 0 Q Oo rt wu counts. Now we’re on rounds. counts is, at some p No. The significa staff members aren’t conducting counts a counts are to the accountability of the Rounds -- are basically t d breathing. I ght. Counts )-minute checks. the point of t - what N a ~J from y- Now, counts. The oint, nce of is that, if inmates - or if the nd - om s that EFTA00128024

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 218 staff members were not conducting their counts. you have 72 when it ee: Now we are dc a: -- (Indiscernible *0 ee : To find 1-profile inmate that was deceased at some point. ae: And they think -- that EFTA00128025

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 you now, since I'm making that explanation - if 2 they were conducting their rounds, would that 3 be a at least try to help ensure that 4 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 5 know it’s not going to prevent it in every 6 case, that part of the reason, to make 7 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 8 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 9 are breathing. 10 a : It is true, but I mean, and 11 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 2 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 3 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 4 to do it. 5 16 8 9 a : -- they just look, they do 20 rounds by looking in their cell. 21 HE: 2 ight. 22 a: So, if you want to -- 23 Ee : To check. -- do harm, you just wait No cs until they go pa your cell. EFTA00128026

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) 20 No Wa OFFICIAL USE 220 a : Right. And then, you kind out the timing of t route. But the u are not showing on the did your rounds, then Ee : Yeah. Looking at them now? a : What is the question? | tti‘ésC*“r Well, does i that, at least this paperwork doesn't rt show you be filled out correctly? EFTA00128027

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LIMITED oO io Ww oO oo wo KK Ww OFFICIAL USE 22 This is just to if these rounds were -? It do with his, you know, if he did it right or not. It’s, what his staff members doing it. a : And what is this? This EFTA00128028

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 222 was also attached. What is that right there, that we are looking at? HN: «ss Xea2h. This lo This looks like the log. And so, doing what areas they search. searches. Cc a wu a: Let me see that. Search. Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. Recreation area. Yeah. These are -- there that there was any cells that were just all, like, common ompleted all. These are, these looks like o hing they have done in there. The fire checks. This is - it EFTA00128029

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LIMITED 1 Oo w oO oo 95 OFFICIAL | i Q fe) rt o fu Q ro ie) 0 w na wu if) That SHU? Ipe. 90S rt EFTA00128030

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U to look at the think five a Oo) t ) 14 minimum of bh F o se yee t x D 4 \ I 18 morning watch, ho i) | | KK bh i | | p s) pan a 3 ct u v a Ps) =| 3 J w a D i EFTA00128031

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LIMITED OFFIC 3 ve 5 All right. And in this case, o 7 did one? 8 w The whole 12 day. why aren’t you doing the F word. oO oo is my ion to is that a problem, 20 ] =I e was only one 2d into TruSco No EFTA00128032

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LIMITED ho No i) ie) Ww w oO wo ioe) oO its) Wa wi OFFICIAL USE u didn't, have been a the computers highly unlikely for -. going into a cell mean —- you didn't conduct reason where the person said, were down or whatever, And we looking at -- And it was looking on now, there might okay, it is but look and like on certain EFTA00128033

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE out to take a 7] 1 day do that. So, with your be down and thir oO io 12 : And s¢ I assume, ioe) would that indicate that the computers are 14 actually up and running? this one, this is oO oo wo No Wa I would think. EFTA00128034

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE N ine) o in your opinion? a : All right. So, not only searching them, but is it equally as important to actually log it in, as well, so that we know whether things are being searched? ee: Yes. You should log it HE: 811 right. Now, this, this comes to the kind of question on this. U When Epstein was found, are you aware that he was in a cell that didn't coincide with what quarters, and what the BOP database said, where he should have been? He was in the wrong cell. a: I did hear, afterwards, that there were some i ues with Sentry and the way keyed into the cells. ee : All right. And what did a: I think, just that the cell, EFTA00128035

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo tad i) OFFICIAL USE I should shut up, Now ions to him isn it’s nsibility, something that is I'm good. something that ponsibility Pe that wh EFTA00128036

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 2 ee : So, who should have made 3 sure that Epstein’s cell, in the BOP database, 4 matched where he was physically located? 5 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 6 information that he wasn’t in his assigned 7 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 8 people not trusting the government. So, we are 9 just trying to figure out -. 10 a : Well, and this is not a 11 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 2 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 3 far as specific keying in cells. I don’t think 4 this was done in a malicious -. 15 ee : So, what happened here, 16 our investigation shows is that when he came 7 back from -- 9 ee : -- from suicide, or 20 psychological observation, he was placed into 21 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 22 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 23 (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? 24 mR. QJ: «car. 25 ee : His CPAP machine, the EFTA00128037

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 Oo w ot) oO oo cord didn't reach the plug. So, they had to move him know, and my thought being is, well, if they are doing their cell searches -- Oh, I thought you meant -- -- the cell didn't match up ee : -- they logged him into the cell that he was placed in, coming out of physically moved him to a different cell. EFTA00128038

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo OFFIC CPAP machine wasn’t, the cord didn't reach. P machine? wu snoring. call me sir. I'm remind | tti‘ésC*“r Who was responsible for i) EFTA00128039

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LIMITED ho ho ho No i) ioe) w io its) Wa OFFICIAL USE would have the SHU lieutenan been Orc. thei said they are. call oO, have to control who called the control Sentry. have the Whoever Because I - and then, don’t if I'm se I don’t belie wrong —- ying where nant in that case, Right, right, oD 5 t a i] be pe. N 0 ie) nl] k i) fw t or r cellmates the N databases you that should change quote SHU ve an would. beds right. would Ww would EFTA00128040

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LIMITED OFFICIAL a n tm Nm Lo rs 3 made down to control, 4 where he’s being keyed to, and this is what -. 5 ee : And who should have made 6 that call? 7 ee: Whoever made the change. 8 Whoever switched him. 9 | ti(‘iés@s And my understanding is 10 that the OIC and the SHU lieutenant were 11 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 2 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 3 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 4 Ee : Yeah. You do a, what we 15 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 16 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 4 i you have a board up there, and you just match 8 where everyone is at. 9 ee : And how often should that 20 happen? 21 a: There is no set policy, but 22 a good practice, you know, you kind of want 23 to check what your open cells are, where, you 24 know, where individuals are. And should it also be checked if they were doing cell EFTA00128041

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 wo wi 1 searches? Would that be caught, if they were Well, if you are doing a ies) 4 cell search, all you are going to do is put 5 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 6 It wouldn’t -. You wouldn’t necessarily be 7 able to find out if it is the correct room. And the correct bed in oO Oo w oO 5 rt i] 7) 4 then, and I’1l shut up so I can actually let 5 you answer, who -- 16 a: I have the same problem. 7 | tti‘ésC*“r -- who is it that should 8 have notified control center to make this 9 change? It sounds like you said whoever 20 sically moved him, at whoever happens No Nm ue} s ke ts] pe 0 fw = bh moved him should have said, okay, 23 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 24 And then, you let the - 25 know, and then, they will EFTA00128042

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LIMITED Oo ~] Oo OFFICIAL U Ww o call down to control center. Yeah, no. I’1l take him to the abo entitled matter went on the rec The EFTA00128043

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LIMITED No No i) No ioe) oO io ioe) wo Wa wi OFFICIAL USE we were talking about who king sure Mr. Epstein was cell within the -- ~] N lo was This, we know only because we So, I mean, Eee : No. Well, we found ou placed into that cell, and then mov AP machine. Well, our question was a) u know, wondering if individual problem. a : That’s why I was just “9 EFTA00128044

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) | | ct oa o 3 i) jon Pp. w n iY] kK a wu bh be is) Hh co OFFICIAL USE N Wo o something that we should probably -. a: Well, and my question is, does effect on count? I mean, they Ph still should be able to look in the cells i there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). a : Well, the problem comes in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, now we have Epstein, who was nd ina cell, and it’s So, that just, you know -- these things that went wrong. One being -- had that. -- wait, he’s not even in the right cell. Well, how did that py appen, and + Goes it make any di question Ph ference? I mean, if supposed to do the count, the count is in the cell, and see -- EFTA00128045

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo 19 USE Voh Well, OFFICIAL th o r 0) not in, he’s still in But because we and again, this is, (Indiscernible to, we Epstein was i) = fu i] i] a signed to. a roommate, and, EFTA00128046

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 240 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong number of prisoners. a: That’s a lot of mistakes. id we haven’t know. who moved him didn't contact and have this changed, how would have, then, how would we, then, how would have anyone found out that he was in the wrong cell? What proces plac o to ensure that where they are match i) wn c ue] with the actual database? ee: Well, I guess if they were doing -- ee: -- yeah. Usually, you could do your bed book counts, to ensure, you is in the cell that When you are updating your accountability board, you would look and EFTA00128047

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? 2 And then, match it up with, you know, with ies) Sentry. 4 Ee: And who would be doing wi ct s ie) a) o ct a 5 Q 7) 6 a: The staff working up there 8 ee : Is the lieutenant, the 9 U lieutenant, at all involved, far as you 10 know, in making sure that this is all 1 ee: Well, he was spearheading it ling was -- ive) He was the supervisor. 5 the supervisor. oO let’s, did this nd have we done es 3 ie] fal fw 9 a : And -. Okay. Just to make me 20 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 21 or not he should hz he had a roommate. 23 a: Okay. And somebody dropped 24 the ball as to whether he was in the right EFTA00128048

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LIMITED oO io ioe) w oO oo wo ho N No Wa OFFICIAL USE dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't sn’t on the count. They had said we did a c didn't notice that, or didn't - that he wasn’t breathing, you out to me. On the after-action review -- did review this. “Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry ell quarters assignments.” ORT. QTR. “Although it is well document inmate EFTA00128049

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 Epstein was housed with two other inmates 2 during his assignment in Sentry does not 3 reflect this information accurately. Inmate 4 Epstein was found within cell 220, that Sentry 5 never reflects him being housed within that 6 cell at any time.” But to answer your 7 that there is 8 9 i=) | | >repancies. The way that I read that N 3 is, overall, whether they are referring to 4 specifically Epstein -- 16 Ee : -- that, I am not able to 7 determine -- 9 ee : -- based upon that sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that So, Lieutenant but it’s really 23 the staff that would be responsible for doing 24 these bed book counts, and making sure 25 assignments are -- EFTA00128050

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 244 make the notification. ee : And is it surprising to later, that wasn’t from where? where: into the cell on July 30th, August 10th, never caught that he was not -- Ee : In the right cell. without catching EFTA00128051

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) w ~ No Ww No cS all staff that was in there, or is it, like, ee: And again, and you probably have to speak to the captain who was responsible for doing the checks, and doing the have some responsibility on this, too ee: Well, did the captain charge of correctional services. So, tha = n b- o ct bh i] the unit he is over. ae : So, he has overall responsibility to make sure, you know, in conjunction with the lieutenant, that the unit is running the way it is supposed to run. eee: And what should have the captain done in order to make sure that that was accurate? HS: Well, now, there is different ways of finding out if stuff is accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit em. Where they are responsible - the lieutenants - are responsible to conduct perpetual audits. So, you can find out through EFTA00128052

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 those, when you do it. And they are usually 2 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 3 things are going on in that department of 4 correctional services, we have what we call 5 perpetual maintained the another checks and o ini 1) ie] ie] KK AQ a Oo al wu o ion rt oe fu rt Bb if] 7 balance where you would find out if something 8 is wrong. 9 | ti(‘iés@s And how often are those 10 done? 11 ee: Those are done erly. nN 5 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten t oO oO RK fay i days, there is a good chance that they do 7 weren’t done during that time period? co he 18) = a =] 13) = y when they would be done? Are they 9 done, like, on a certain date? quarterly? No Nm No ion) EFTA00128053

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo 19 No Wa OFFICIAL USE 247 -- you do your perpetual ch it, and say, We did an audit. And this is And corrective action to you come up with t how the a : The captain would find out. -- ten or ll would have that been caught? tability board. Mm-hmm. with what is on a : Again, I don't know who, igned it to, who EFTA00128054

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO co io ioe) oO co © ion) wi OFFICIAL USE 24 co s different ee: -- different ways that work. does thi un oO 5 7 rt w u Cc i cr ao fu it] i jen c Le} 3 5 5 wu rt Le} wu its is) o Q down from lieutenant to the OIC -- a : -- no, but basically, when you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an accountability check like that, because the sleeping, and, or a living, breathing body, but can't physically see them. EFTA00128055

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE Mm-hmm. All right. Let’s get out of your way. If you don’t mind, HN: 8m. Ts right that we are getting close to the bottom of th om om pil We are. We are getting 31) with this. Mm-hmm. We are -. (Indiscernible (Indiscernible the supervi Your job is the prison. It’s your job to look down into the pr as far as these counts know, accountability boards, a: No. I mean, that is what »9tain for and a lieutenant for. EFTA00128056

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 ive) w ~] ive) (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? ee : And then, we touched on this before, but this is an email that the captain sent to you. a : Regarding the lieutenant rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent this email on August llth, 2019. He said, “Warden, here are the lieutenant rounds for 8/ to 8/10. Below are the workstations logged on to complete rounds.” ae : Mm-hmm. Eee : But again, for you, a lieutenant round, and I don’t know if we ever came to that conclusion, or that we may have got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round is used primarily to check in, and it’s not necessarily to go down the different ranges? HN: the midnight shift. So, they typically not, you know, unless they hav an issue, but like you said, you as a lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see oO /9 EFTA00128057

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U 251 a: Mm-hmm. be walking down the ranges on both the morning, or the day watch and the night watch? ee : This is what I will ng wa able EFTA00128058

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFIC AL USE (Indisc mak rounds, c that. But most lieutena Because most Mm-hmm. -- said that do -- ht. -- a round, j Some lieutenants -- lieutenants that worked that day -- cifical a problem on the range. You would ca know, ju is going lieutenan tt ust like -Yr st on. a EFTA00128059

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co wo OFFICIAL USE hit like you unit, yo within the unit. The I'm go rything is, sure tT SHU N wi Ww who is right? The expectation is, u make yur rounds no different. know, ch you hey are fine. But if (Indiscernible *03: understand you conduct but member, All see But u % is) & =] ion - the e3 tation was requirement to do hould be walking it’s not like you EFTA00128060

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure you are doing this. doing it, it’s not like something they would be disciplined for? ee : See, that’s hard. I mean, to say you would discipline. There is a difference between what is written down, and what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I want to see what’s going around the unit. I might ask the officer, all right, do we have any problems. The inmates, when you come on, hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are going down the ranges. You know, so, when you are going down the range, you are seeing something. You get to another range. The inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, it is something you should be doing as part of your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just walking around, to make sure everything is -. EFTA00128061

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 255 a : But if you were still the warden and found out th t your lieutenants, when they were signing off on doing rounds -- found out that ct p 0) 0 H oO oO 5 an Q p 1) cking in with the staff were not actually walking down is that something t would find problematic? ee: I would correct it. ee : And when you say correct that? Ee : I would tell, you know, get with the captain, and I would tell the captain they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, walk on, you want to EFTA00128062

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the 2 word “sound correctional judgement”? You know, 3 to see, aS a supervisor, is going on. 4 I mean, you have some people that go above and 5 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 6 some people that want to do the bear minimum. But that is something -- 8 Ps: oben. 9 ee: -- from a rounds point of 10 view, I would say you need to make those 11 rounds. 2 a: Okay. Let me ask you a 3 question. 15 a: You do the rounds. Does that mean literally walk up and down this, what we, R fon) 7 what I would call the cell block? 8 ae: Yeah. You walk around the 9 unit. You know, you are interacting with 20 inmates. You are talking to inmates. 21 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 22 are walking around. Hey, what’s going on? 23 ee: So, what you are not 24 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. EFTA00128063

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 257 HN: Know what I remember about the like, if go in and go to the in with the got all your paperwork in order? All your paperwork is Did find it problematic th of their round sheets on the desk EFTA00128064

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co wo OFFICIAL USE N wi o it. Some have it right there, the log, you know, take the logbook and they just sign it. So -. Ee: So, the individuals, the and activities lieutenant that that wor Paperwork is done, and t! other lieutenant that we talked to said, no. ee: -- make sure everything You are not just checking on. Mm-hmm. EFTA00128065

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LIMITED ioe) w oO io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 259 a: Well, now, for the ones that > down and ing of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is wrong? The ee: Well, they would, they would 7 need to change post orders? should be going around, and -- a: So, they should have a rule -- you got to go EFTA00128066

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 around? 3 Okay 5 So, no one technically 6 They should really i) u i if rt ie] s) a” ot) f o ct t 0] bh fl i) i +t i) fu 5 rt nt Oo c =] Q wn 17 a: Damn. That pile is a lot oo 23 I'm fucking out of 24 pile back, I'm out of here. 25 give EFTA00128067

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 take this shit no more. 4 a : Mm-hmm. ~~] wi EFTA00128068

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U their rour coincidental? Nothing to tein? Yeah. This had nothing to with him. This was p y what he had Dy EFTA00128069

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo 95 a : So, this has nothing to All right. I'm not even going to -- from you to Mr. SHU rounds. Mm-hmm. WN:_—«s( Okay. This is on -. This EFTA00128070

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LIMITED ies) w oO co i=) ioe) OFFICIAL USE 264 a : Now, is there some kind of a requirement that you conduct rounds? ae: Yeah. The warden is Es: «So, «you are supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? Yeah. About once -- Cc. Like, Ve up as many times, but, you know, warden is supposed to be going. a: Now, that means you are rounas sup Yeah. I go in walk around and do rounds in every area of the institution. Ss do a round w this round sheet No. This is every Bureau this. This is where you sign Housing Unit. This is the showing they made their EFTA00128071

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE rounds, or did they forget to make rounds? a : Is this and this the same lieutenants, it did two rounds. on Friday. EFTA00128072

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 266 a : So, the fact that AW operations has nothing in there, is that problematic? ee: And here is the other thing times, they make to initial what I would do is, I would look okay, when I got at the end of you didn't make rounds? rounds in St} there, but they are not required. Like, a: The correctional judgement -- facility -- a : But health services has to make rounds. EFTA00128073

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE N an By the end of the day, man, I’ll be ready to go I hated going to prison. You know? So, which ones on here You have the unit team that’s supposed to up. The lieutenants. HE: «Well, SIS, it doesn't appear that they did any rounds. ee : But I'm assuming they certainly should have. That’s -. ld have been up So, and again, look at it and see who was on leave. might have been on leave, not on leave. of individuals, it looks like more mean, obviously, what is a warden round look o you all have to walk down the range, EFTA00128074

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 ay 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ee : -- is that what you do? ee: -- what I do is, I walk around and I go to every cell, and I talk to the guy, got any issues, any problems? They’re, like, no, I'm good. You might have some that say, hey, I'm up here for an investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. Fine. Some of it I can address right there, some of it I can't. But I would typically walk around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, that is the reason why you are up there. Why am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, you go by it, it says -- a: It’s because you are a fucking mass murderer, that’s why you’re up here. ee: -- and, like, you know why you are locked up. And then, they would say, well, how come the investigation is taking so long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, if it was an OIG investigation. It would depend. So, you know, I would usually tell them, like, you know, it’s an outside agency handling. We are in contact with them. And somebody will come see. EFTA00128075

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 a : Some could be up for administrative, like an incident report. but were you required to N wo ies) uw ct i] be o ie} ins Oo o Q ie) rt a wu rt Oo tal b 7] [ rt =) = 0 rt oS 14] Q Vv] c oH f you just were a Les] H 3 i) wu 5 ct a fw rt n = a ry] rt MK io] f That’s what you talked don’t say that. Ww 0 Har I don’t have post 4 orders. oo u 13) 3 oO ct 7 Bp. 5 Q Q fe) i] ty] say a 20 There’s nothing in writing 21 to tell me you have to do it. But just like I 22 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area of the institution. You know, make sure I see employee going there on the off shifts. ould go on the off shif , you know, to see EFTA00128076

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 the staff, but it’s -- a: It’s a surprise. In other words, you are not telling them you are coming, you are just going. ee: Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to staff. What’s your issues? I mean, it’s more the issue of them just work. I mean -. ee: So, when you say there’s nothing in writing, saying that you should do it, or is there something in writing saying these people that didn't do it, that they should have done it? HS: «XO. «And there could be reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would get the report and look into - like, there are people that make the rounds, they come up to SHU but they forget to sign in. HS: «So, ~when I get the report, I would, you know, talk to the captain, that rt ts) ni a the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't suc and such make a round? Now, that AW might have been out that week, and I had this one covering both. So, they came up with the AW. ~) oO EFTA00128077

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LIMITED ho No No No No ies) w oO co ive) co ion) wi OFFICIAL USE determine, like, th visited o didn't go down rang up, and remember, w connected. So, Id know, fo him making his roun rounds, you are goi ct > oO range. Somebody : Now, is there any way to ese people that, for n Friday, what time they is the day that the captain was e. And he could have come Ten South on't know if he came up r an issue for Ten South. Mm-hmm. don't know. So, I And then, ds, ven if he’s making his ng to have empty cells on Oh, will? you Yeah. Well, somebody -- Even if - -- somebody could be at c uld be on an attorney EFTA00128078

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 272 -- it wouldn’t caused a think, if he saw, like, s cell empty? know? I mean -- EFTA00128079

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LIMITED ho ie No No i) ie) ioe) w oO io ioe) oO © Wa wi OFFICIAL USE ll 27 in rec. concerned about the pe to 4 weren't to who weren’t check in see, making wit Tha sure you a talking to everyone. u know, tho was 27 -- Epstein, h gh-profile mate? That wouldn’t be - No. you’re just saying, okay, his, you are more that are there, as like sounds h them. t, I mean, you want to re around, making don't know wt So, I ught proc s is, or in the shower or not. Mm-hmm. And I'm Sure. No. not EFTA00128080

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 4 a: How many days a re in -? 6 The entire of tt 7 it’s Monday, Wednesday, and 8 9 And wh about this one? fF Ww | | k 7) + .) k 17) | Ps C rt aa BP 103) F o n 1) QO c 5 B ct c fea] 3 | on 3 =| 20 might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this 21 is what I did (Indiscernible *03: Sorry. All right. 23 mind just initialing and dating that? EFTA00128081

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ~) wi follow up questions before we move on. Why don’t you ask those? MR. a: If the counts and the rounds were done -- MR. a: -- as they were supposed to be done, let’s say in the afternoon, by the SHU i] C.0O.s, would they have caught the fact that Epstein’s cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was actually not where he was supposed to be? In terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was transferred, would they have caught onto the fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? ee: I don’t understand what -. MR. a: Let’s say Reyes was transferred, right? Ee: e-bmn. MR. a: If the counts and the rounds were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. count, the rounds in between, if they were done, would the SHU C.0O.s have caught on to the fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? EFTA00128082

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 2 MR. a: If the word of mouth -. So, the claim is -- Oo oo 9 iducting their roun 2 that he wasn’t ? EFTA00128083

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 w ~] cell, they would have his name and the other person. Then you should be saying, okay, where is the cellmate? We know he’s not in the attorney room. ee : So, you know he’s down in the attorney room. So, you would have said, okay, somebody’s got to be in that cell. ae: Hmm. Ace bastard. That’s a way to fuck with the other guys. MR. a: Meaning, if they actually did the rounds and the counts like they were supposed to, there was more than enough time for them to turn around and assign another cellmate, if needed. ae: Or to say, of course, to your point, where they are saying that nobody ever told them, if you were making your rounds, you would have saw that there was nobody in that cell, and then ask you a question, where he’s at. a: And the person whose job it is to make sure they are doing their rounds is the EFTA00128084

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 ~) o 1 lieutenant or the captain? 2 Ee : On the shift, it is the 3 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 4 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 5 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 6 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 7 then you find out people didn't make their 8 rounds. 10 question to you was, does this suggest to you 11 that they were not actually conducting their 2 rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 3 hours, and the notifications weren’t made? 4 Ee : It would appear that that is 15 the appearance. 16 WN: (indiscernible *03:18:07). 7 HS: «Seah. I mean. 8 MR. a : I just have one other 9 question. 20 WN: hen I do cross examinations, 21 it would appear that, yeah, 22 that’s, yeah, somebody found. 23 MR. a: Have you ever heard of C.0O.s 24 pre-filling round sheets? 25 ee : When he says pre-filling, EFTA00128085

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 what he is saying is that, the beginning of their shift, they are going in and they are just writing, they are initialing and putting in the time. At the very beginning, for the rest of their shift. a: So, let me put it to you this way. If I -- MR. a: I saw you smile -- MR. a: -- when he asked that. ee: Because if I become aware and know that somebody is doing something like that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going to report that. So, if somebody came to me and said, well, this person is pre-filling out count slips, that would be something that I would say, okay, you know, I have to doa referral, or if I don’t have enough evidence for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count slips. ee : So, if we have people confessing, admitting that they are not only pre-filling out their count slips, but also doing it with their round sheets -- EFTA00128086

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE N D ° is your response to that? How bad of a -? How bad is erral. I u an if oO counts ee : Well, I mean, if they’r telling you that we pre-filled it out, it’ o its) obvious that counting. nting. a: They’ re not no intention of ee : And does that indicate to EFTA00128087

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven’t done our count slip, that is an admission of ies) misconduct. 4 Ee: Right. But a false certification, as well. Correct? w 7 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 8 to you. But as far as -- 2 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 3 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 4 watched a year guy do it. That’s how I 15 learned. He didn't tell me to do it. But I 16 watched him do it. co So, I did that. 20 say to you, when did that person come in? 21 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 22 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 23 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 24 always, always tell people, you got to know what’s near and dear to you. EFTA00128088

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w oO fos) ioe) oo © ion) OFFICIAL USE 282 And that is why I asked ae: Talk to whoever was in her annual training, when we have it, talk to into our people, and they will tell you about my spiel. Yeah, but do you always do what situation. EFTA00128089

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 w ~] a : But specifically about not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that you tell them? ee: So, what I tell them is, I come in -- ee: Because it sounds like it is the same thing you tell them every time. ee : -- right. So, what I basically tell them, I said, you got some good people that work in the institution. And then, I had, you got some people with time, that just want to do what they want to do. And I tell them, don’t follow them around. I said, you’ve got one. If you are on probation coming in, you need to be doing your job. I said, if someone comes in, and they’re not doing their job, or they’re telling you not to do something, you make sure you let your supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you can talk to me. a: You know? So, the expectation was clear. But with any other agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - there are people that come in and they become EFTA00128090

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 284 followers. ee : Now, we’re going to move on. ee: Mm-hmm. ee : We talked about the phone your understanding of what transpired with A & st 9th. What is in being provided a phone call on the night of August 9th, 2019? a: So, from what I understand, when you come in, you have to be able to do, for the monitored calls, the all that. So, from what I understand afterwards, Epstein was yer available for that to be done. Because he went down to the attorney room, and he would come up at night. So, from what I understand, he was given an unmonitored call. an “unmonitored call”? Ee : An unmonitored call is a call that is not recorded with the inmate phone do you mean by EFTA00128091

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 285 don’t a : From what I und understanding that, On August 3th, 2019, unit man Ee. to provide him with a phe uld call hi call, so that he - m Ee : Mm-hmm. pack and PIN, and found out it was not ed Epstein’s up. Mm-hmm. EFTA00128092

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 286 the phone to Epstein. for the day. fs we found out that instruct any one of them to monitor their phone call. Instead, he called departed from the MCC, to make sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein after his allotted time. Had you heard that I have -. What I heard was did the monitor ee : So, a number of que off of that. The fact that J) dialed the number that he gave him, and a man called. A stions man answered. he said he was calling his mother. A man answered and he gave him the EFTA00128093

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 287 phone. I -. Who did I -? MR. ae: So, that information might have come out after. ae: It came out after. I didn't - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't o) rt a fu rt ue] K is} oO f v) =] fu rt k a to you? ar that it was a o it was his -. hear I heard it was -. I forgot who they said it was that called, but then afterwards, they said, ver they said it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that ee : I think it was his mother. a: Yeah. I think it might -. , and that, that is what I heard. So his m ther died during the tigation. Hmm. previously deceased. Deceased. , Wait, wait, wait, wait, Wait. EFTA00128094

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 28 o o So, he calls, looking for his Ee: He said he wanted to talk a: But his mother was alreé answered the phone was a male. But he still n gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that problematic? That he says he wants to talk to his mother. A man answers. And then gives the phone to Mr. Epstein. : Well, remember, I am hearing this, that it was a call that all along said I'm calling the mother. I don’t know anything about a man answering the phone. No, no, no, no, no. I'm , ' ' ' providing this information as in, like, you are the warden, what is your take on do something wrong there? Ee : Well, as far as, you know, you are saying you want to talk to your mother, EFTA00128095

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 23 OFFICIAL USE a: -- and then, a man the phone. Yeah. It might uestions he should have been asking. him an unm line, was on Yeah. That you ca t’s not recor On that note, w rs the verified n't - ere there EFTA00128096

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 290 any lines that Mr. | could have plugged the phone into, that were monitored, versus if many, if not m BOP facilities have the ability, if a pa PIN such as that wasn’t set up. There are lines that monito a : I'm not sure. I think EFTA00128097

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 he o wu 3 ion hb } i ct o 5 rt s) ct 0) 0 wy r bh 8 ee : Should have he put it on wo ive) and oO co ho Ps) k Q =a + 24 Second, he didn't 25 Third, he didn't tell EFTA00128098

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co io ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE then, at some point, said, 0) t’s go monitor it, or should have tha something that | -- is guy is on a phone call, t been | ti(‘iés@s -- would have directed? a : -- you couldn’t -. But that’s what I'm saying. I don't know the conversation that took place between them. rt the call wa 7 3 hu Q @ wu = jon n (3) @ a 0 o fey monitor it. Did they was told to If EFTA00128099

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N wo Ww 2 a: The significance of this is 3 had monitored the p e call, 4 ound out he was very 5 =- 6 Well, there is -. Can 7 it important for us to know 8 are talking about on their 9 mean, just for the safety the institution. 2 Is it true that they 3 could potentially operate their businesses, 4 eir illegal businesses, from there? 16 Ee : Or they call a hit on 7 someone. Or y could, they could do a lot of 8 different illegal activities, if we are not 9 monitoring tho lis -- 21 ee : -- that we wouldn’t know a : -- why we monitor them. 24 WN: 8k) right. 1 je one more n ct o K kK EFTA00128100

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 294 N 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ae: I'm a young lawyer. And I know it’s hard to believe I was ever young. But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - and I go to the interview, and he says, this person is the main rat against, and I said, no, he’s not. I said, that person has got no - fucking nothing to do with it. He don’t say nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, oh, man, I better make a phone call. ee : So, is it standard practice to allow inmates to make personal calls, as | had done? HS: Xow do I, sometimes if they come in, they don’t have a pack number. Like, you could have a family member that has passed away, and, you know, you allow them to make a call under that circumstance. You know, I have a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, you make a call to another agency. And the inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is such and such. But you stay and you listen to the conversation. EFTA00128101

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LIMITED ho No i) ie) ioe) w oO io ioe) ~ a bh Bb rt ri] w oO a] bh fe) is n oO its) Wa wi OFFICIAL USE 295 a: On an unmonitored line? body should be a : All right. And what are your thoughts on this specific matter from what we just, from what I just told you? problematic, if you said, if it’s the said it, yeah. a: Well, yeah. I mean, it’s a ee: Because we don’t know what rsation was. You answered that. These are just on this =] ie) ct vi] - og oO Kh it) b n uw. c is] rt fu Q io] is ue] pan 1) ie) Fh rt om o n m | o 0) K i) EFTA00128102

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL a 4 N wo a attorney. client Jeffrey Good afternoon. Epstein. Below, please find attorneys. Can you ck to has toilet paper, and that his CPAP is plugged in? I am regarding his complaint of h calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, there is no recording of them. account is the ITS, when 30 days has -- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A if : So, it looks like this ussed, and t on August 6, 2019. Do you know It EFTA00128103

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO is) b No Wa OFFICIAL USE 297 up. was the day and I beli captain, this him call, just Mm-hmm. the Prior to that, did about this at all? Well, affording unmonitored line, but was mon sure his pack Hmm-mm. But make and PIN is EFTA00128104

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LIMITED Oo w w oO oo OFFIC AL USE 29 was some to make sure that we can tls from this is one we Ee : That’s the communication EFTA00128105

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LIMITED Oo wo Ww oO oo OFFICIAL USE 299 a : Sent on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an ee : That we are unable to know what phone call remember if you ived a recording of that phone call? a : No. I didn’t get any I think it might -. might the number. I'm not sure. I can't t recall. a : What that is. | tti(‘éii@s Do you remember asking With any EFTA00128106

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LIMITED Oo) Oo OFFICIAL U 300 information with regards to the call? called him the number that ae: And could they it up. So, we might phone? pulled think it might I think wanting initialing -- Mm-hmm. t 3 know what t know, oh my EFTA00128107

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 301 gosh, do we ha MR. a: The second one, too. going to get into the actual incident. lo of what stein’s 10th, 2019? ee : I don’t know. Ee : You don’t know? Ee : I didn't go up there. stein took EFTA00128108

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 302 1 to me. 4 Eps o o 7 cell door was left opened on the 8 2019, and/or the mo 13 14 rd that any 15 - any cells within the 16 s were left opened on the 17 2019 in the morning? I did not hear that. t co reported 23 a : No. I would h EFTA00128109

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) oO ios) 1 the - let’s see - this is the Bureau of Prisons 7) 2 Health Services Clinical Encounter. this one at all? ies) w oO 2 Oo 7 a : It talks about responding 5 for medical emergency. fos) ct is) fu wo I think I might have saw the i=) memorandums, but I don’t -. I don’t recall 11 seeing this. read this, for the record -- let me ive) u =] 73) rt 15 ee : -- because it is a very 16 quick one. It says, “Responded to a body alarm 7 at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. 8 Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor 9 of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress 20 by correctional officers. The inmate was cold 21 with circumferential bruising around the neck 22 and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and 23 dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) 24 pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. 25 ED placed. No shock advised. CPR EFTA00128110

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 304 continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12).” No. I'm not going to read the rest of this. It just talks about continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, after Ep wu rt wu up No. When I -- -- (Indiscernible -- when I he was already out. ee : Because they said that, you know, he was declared deceased at the hospital. is, EFTA00128111

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE life. 3 heard anything rom was just w staff? Was there ee : Well, the impression that was he was alive when he left the ou believed he was a: That’s what was conveyed. did the CPR. And then, they to this, again, this per i 3 =] fu ct 1] ay wn QO Oo i 2 ou know, lpus pulses. he was still alive I think he was -. They yt him out. “Pupils fixed and ” Meaning, I'm Yo You know? ' EFTA00128112

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to look at the response, the staff responding memorandums on what -. ee : So, up until this date, did you think that he was alive when he had left the institution? a: That’s what I believed. That was the impression I had. a: Can I ask a question? Right. If he was dead when they came, and somebody found him, or even if he was close to death, how long would it have been that he tried to kill himself, and the time that they found him? In other words, does that mean he tried to kill himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You understand the question I'm asking? eee: Sure. I mean, that is something that the medical examiner, you know, makes that determination. a: Because obviously, if he was, had done whatever he did, during the time that there was supposed to be a round, and somebody fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are there, with a towel around your throat, that’s a hint that you are not exactly in the best of EFTA00128113

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LIMITED ioe) w oO io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 307 mood know, I don’t know, like medical examiner determines tT re] i nv 5 e) = b. Hh a o wn ys provider, J , who worked at -? He was one of a: Mm-hmm. Eee : All right. And is it tanding, by saying provider, this is who wrote this the encounter fills it, writes it in the i cally, who has EFTA00128114

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo OFFICIAL USE examiner is the only one dead? And also clare an inmate that what you Did showed s From what -- | tsti‘i‘iz*@r Because we have heard -- from -- -- type of thing do with the fact that the medical EFTA00128115

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LIMITED ies) w oO co io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 309 performing when, from - what do you call it? performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming that he is still alive. Right. Like, That, you know -- ut do or -- That he was 7) is) fh till alive oO Fh Hh 03) fon oO Qa w ng on him. somebo start, now, where the parame know, th work on them, you know what? There is EFTA00128116

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 nothing else we can do. He still Oo 7 were still worki in Yeah. It doesn’t -. 13 ee : -- it happens at the -- Oo EFTA00128117

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 311 1 H + i wn fe] K ct Oo Fh wu To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). It’s a joke. Because f = 3 o rt ' =I A the bodies are still there, and -- Right. and we know he is o deceased. ctor and the medical tw c t ct J D t a @ is O 2 examiner -- D na] Oo oo 24 not coming back, but I EFTA00128118

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 1 |. 2 ee : But just, I just want to be clear, because with ies) without rt S wu rt a) ct wu rt om 3 o =] rt 4 me getting a little more clarification, people w are going to read, wait a warden 6 said that he was still, he thought he was still 7 = alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 8 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 9 to bring him back, or based upon the i=) con\ sation with someone - and my follow would 11 be that, who? - did you believe that he was still alive? nN ive) he assumption, from when I 4 was called, was they were working on him, and t oO Okay. That was -- 9 a: -- that’s the term. 20 a: -- that -. Wait. You were 21 called at a certain time. co No Nm Yeah. When the lieutenant 23 called. 24 Now, the lieutenant 25 says -. EFTA00128119

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE tot) a ies) 2 and found out, did you ever find out that he 3 wasn’t showing signs of life, when you came in 4 and talked to people? 5 ee: No. Because I - first of 6 all, when it happened, I wasn’t going around 7 questioning people about -- its] i} i} 2) x fw — 5 wu ct ‘s going on 10 with this, because then, I knew that it was a 11 criminal case. But not criminal, but there was 2 going to be an investigation into it. And so, 3 I didn't want to give the appearance of 4 anything, that I was interfering with any 15 investigation. But when I did call, they said 16 they were working on him, and that, you know, 7 he was being transported to the outside 8 hospital. 9 ee : And who was it that 20 provided you with that information? 21 a: The lieutenant. Lieutenant 23 a: So, you drew the inference 24 that that -- Uh-huh. No w EFTA00128120

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 314 know, they were still working on him, and he was still alive. And after that and speaking with him back, but a : I didn't -. sumption, hospital. All right. cb want at all, anymore? EFTA00128121

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 315 have, really, left. All right. So, 4 this was an email sent from you, to a. 11 PE: n-ne. 17 Ee : Who was the staff working (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25 EFTA00128122

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 316 think | worked -- 2 A: think this -- 3 ee : -- until midni 4 | | only worked until 10 For - and I don’t - Oo) 15 from -- Oo EFTA00128123

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LIMITED 2 wo 3 Ww OFFICIAL USE who we considered these two were working Mind just initial and And thi from Captain fF to you, dated Sunday, August 11, subje memorandum, that this dated with a) P ~J up ut I don’t know was EFTA00128124

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? 2 HE: tic. 3 ee : Do you know what the 4 purpose of this was? 5 ee: Let me read it again. 6 “(Indiscernible and while this 7 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 8 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 9 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. I 10 explained that lieutenants were to conduct 11 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 2 (Indiscernible *03:45:09) I explained I 3 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 4 *03:45:15).” Oh, no. I just was asking him 5 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 16 he provided? 7 eee: So, what did he provide 8 to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant? 9 Because -- 22 little point on this first page -- it) st the last ho | ' n is) it says, “In wi detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant, No EFTA00128125

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LIMITED ies) w co wo i=) ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE tot) a ite) he was informed of my expectations regarding the supervision of inmate Epstein, reminded on several e Epstein was to be housed surrounding -- The expectations. ME: | -— Epste ee: Right. Mm-hmm. ee : And when he says, “During address management concerns with inmate do you know what he is talking about there? With management concerns. Ee : The housing of them. And in the Special Housing Unit. y- And do you know looks like he is ng that he did perform an informal training sessio Do you know if he, in fact, did that, or is it ji a: Just based upon -- EFTA00128126

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 320 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) a: -- on what he sent out. ee : Okay. So, there is no other information, aside from what he’s telling you? ee: Right. Yeah. He told me that. a : So, this one is - I want to get your take on this matter - so, this is back to PS who was relieved at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at least until 9:30, and sent out that email, fa detailing, you know, what day, and th lieutenant’s log, and the daily activity log. So, Captain | sent her an email on 8/12/2019, stating, “Lieutenant a. I am reminding you to submit your supervisory memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that occurred on 8/10/2019. Please have it complete and ready for submission on 8/13/2019.” She responded with no, addressing nothing, just saying, just responded simply, “In your email, you state, quote, ‘I am reminding you.’ End quote. I haven’t spoken to you or anyone else regarding the incident involving inmate Epstein or EFTA00128127

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. So, how is it possible for you to be reminding me? Second, I have been properly relieved, prior to the incident involving inmate Epstein.” What is your take on that email? a: First of all, any major incident that takes place in the institution, we have to do what is called a report of incident. ee: He is well within the scope of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, where is -. And I don't know if he was asking her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident took place. So, technically, you should have been doing the packet. So, he is probably contacting her for that. ee : Well, she was relieved at 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the incident happened at 6:30. And again, she aws there at least until 9:30. And she did respond to the SHU afterwards, helping with the feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? EFTA00128128

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 322 ) H 3 i) fu S io) 7 o wn rf] bh o a) - oO ies) nded to the incident? 4 Ee: She didn't respond to the nded after the incident, to w r 3 Q BP ion oO 3 ct co io jain, from what I gather, I ssion, when the lieutenant ' Ww fw =] c =] Q i) a] ct a o bh. 3 ue] RR oO 15 16 18 around, working on matters that she needed to 9 catch up on. 22 manipulating those numbers on the counts and Ph 23 stuff. EFTA00128129

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE a: So, let me ask you this estion. I have, I have a medical emergency. A suicide, right? That is an emerger the institut has to respond to. pond to it? maybe came back after? ee : It doesn't make sense to s her required logs, though. a: Right. So, that, but -- emails. And I would think that she would have sent that out, if she would have sent that out before she left. saying that you were there, you would have been point. EFTA00128130

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 3 c 6 / of that ea) H 3 i) fu 5 i] =) w a. ct a Bb Mh ke } ¢ -- and if you didn't 13 -. Is it a claim 14 I wasn’t 15 16 in the building, 18 right EFTA00128131

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 1 states that she was there, and she was working 2 on her administrative responsibilities -- ies) Right. -- so, is that a problem, 5 then, as the warden? What do you mean you are 6 working on the administrative? You should have responded to that emergency. 8 ee : No. But - and I don’t want to speculate on when you are there - but I wo t i=) u. i=] n , there is just some questions -- 11 WN: eit, and I think -- 2 a: -- they just don’t -- a: -- that is a yes ora 3 Ww a) ' \ 15 a: -- you know, question. Yeah. I mean, it’s a R fon) 7 problem. If you are saying I am working on it, 8 okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I 9 need to, because once they had said, hey, I 20 have a suicide or something going on, which is 21 probably over, you know, a real medical 22 emergency, and you hear the transmission on the 23 radio, you are going to go up there. So then, 24 oh, I went up there later, to help 25 with the feeding. Either way, you were in the EFTA00128132

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE building. The captain is asking you, it happened on y shift, are responsible for conducting the report of incident. answer is yes, ae: She should have written one. I don’t understand why she didn't, you know? ee : And is that at all - how rdination at way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how 7) tolerate, but if you had given me a memorandum like this, we would be having a know? inappropriate. I mean, that’s the way -- EFTA00128133

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LIMITED ies) Oo io 3 23 OFFICIAL firs wh tC, are you at is this? Again, I don’t want to EFTA00128134

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 a : No, I didn't hear anything. 2 a: I would hate to -- 5 Ee: -- I would hate to 7 Right. 8 But, but it nds to me like 9 S hours where knows know, if I was him, I would c Ww 3 t (9) 7 H mean, 14 be drawing an inference, saying, what 16 I 17 I mean, I understand 18 at I'm just, my ie) 19 point of view is - and my there -- 22 a: Your concern is, you would 23 ed 24 5 EFTA00128135

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 Oo w oO oo Because I was -- a: -- which is what I did. he impress A -- under ion, se when Lieutenant || called me, he was lieved a © o the operations lieutenant, and he had r that she night be EFTA00128136

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Ww Ww Oo 1 happen. We’re not saying she did. We don’t 2 know. If she went in and she altered the 3 lieutenant logs, for the previous shift, did 4 she do something wrong? 5 ee : Well, and again, we are 6 knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m. ~] So, that is still her shift. But -- Ks] co i K rr fii) wu x We’ve had this 10 conversation -- 11 MR. a: -- no, no, but -- 3 MR. a: -- let’s just say, you know, 4 the fact that the inmate wasn’t moved until 15 midnight, and then the clarification, and the 16 count, the count numbers being changed in 7 there. Now, so, the lieutenant log count 8 numbers are accurate, except the count, the 9 actual count slips, were completely off. So, 20 somewhere along the way, someone altered those 21 numbers to -- 23 MR. a: -- correct it. 24 ee: -- the lieutenant is 25 required to take a count on each shift. So -- EFTA00128137

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LIMITED 4 to take in a count. Right? 5 ee: Right. Just to take Oo) An institutional 10 a : Institutional count. 13 14 now -- 15 now, if you 17 -- I got to shut up t i) 5] ct i) H rt J o is) a no question EFTA00128138

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 332 1 that, at some 2 MR. a: The count was wrong. 3 fF : The count was WN: Okay. Okay. D ue] e) Bp 3 t int, the count was altered? Oo w ot) oO oo 23 is, well, that 24 went back and ch numbers to 5 79 — 25 2, EFTA00128139

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c w tm LIMITED OFFICIAL vt) Wo ios) her motive -- WwW ' I ct fe) Qo fe) rr oa fu w trying to make things accurate. But what would be an ulterior oO 7 motive that would create the idea that she was 8 doing something wrong It goes back to when you wo c Oo wu 7) * oO io i} i} 2 ee : -- is there something to do with a cover up? 4 Ee : So, if - and granted, ive) 15 are made in the log - but you also 16 annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, 7 okay, late entry. Because typically, if you 8 say the log is done already, when you go back 9 and make changes, you make changes for this 20 reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks 21 at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks 22 like you’ve been playing, you went back and 23 ged the numbers. So, you can put in 24 there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain was, and what the mistake was. what your EFTA00128140

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LIMITED ies) w fos) Ww oo OFFICIAL USE -- to show a malicio (Indiscernible thought he drew a gun on me. her involve him. a: Oh, okay. Nobody el ment at all, you said, or » n ar fu K pw m7 = a fu ot | | 0 Oo i) a] 3 iQ is ue volvement in Epstein’s death? ee : No. She wouldn’t vt) wo us intent 1g around. 1g around officer, he says, well, I se saw EFTA00128141

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LIMITED Oo) Oo I was told that? =d me and he says, hey, I have any more on that? talk about the cameras. EFTA00128142

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) ive) oo wo OFFICIAL USE 336 afterwards, that they weren’t recording. WN: eit. Wait. We had this conversation. ee: Right. a: The cameras don’t work in a lot of these institutions. a: Yeah. Yeah. a: All right. And that’s because fucking money to make cameras work. a: And I got to op saying fuck.” ts) ! i 18) 3) rt funding, incident, I guess there was some audits done by the agency, and they realized that it was kind But you see, the issue is, checked why weren’t the cameras EFTA00128143

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 337 1 working? 2 ee : Well, that’s my question WwW b ish Oo oO c * 5 Q = = ke ct ia oO bet = K 1) a] Oo rt = oO BR a on 5 4 ee: I don’t know the specific and what was wrong with wi b w =] Te! t wu Q o ct ian wh ct Fe if) = a) @ o 6 it, I guess, after I of 7 made a determination on what was why -. What 8 was the reason. I know we were going through te) ct a @ ue} ai auditing and fixing some i=) e specific SHU cameras, I ive) co 9 a: You mean, the day of the right. At any I don’t recall. with this? This is right outside of -- ho ies) EFTA00128144

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LIMITED Oo) Oo OFFICIAL U angle prov I think from -- familiar, I don’t And what a : And then, this one, I think EFTA00128145

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE vt) Ww fe) That looks like the Ten South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone s-. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like © 8d what are we looking is the, right here station know what tier (Indiscernible that G and H tier, I think, if I remember. ee : And what would be right et i) WS: oh. soWait. G. oH. I don’t remember if that was I and J. That » Would this be L tier up Yeah. Land M tier. That’s s station, look EFTA00128146

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LIMITED Oo wi Oo OFFICIAL U that where Epstein was hous tier. initialing and datir this look like, | ti‘ésS And this is where Eps EFTA00128147

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo OFFIC USE 341 Does this look like what -- on it. noticed it. The crime the number -- ee : Yeah. I don't know the but I'm taking your word for it, that that a] =] D K wu x wy 0) EFTA00128148

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) 8 wo OFFICIAL USE 342 camera that I'm actually looking at right there? ae: That is a camera. a: Was that camera recording? ee : Sir, do you know if the recording? ee: I didn't see. After I left, I guess t ¥y said there were camera issues, but I don’t know what, I wasn’t ided information on what specific cameras were working or not. ny] if) Ee : Well, remember, I w removed. Ee : I just didn't know if you found out on the 10th or 11th. ae: No. I was removed on the, you know, they said there were some camera and then, what they were doing, they had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and I guess y were working to see what was working and what wasn’t working? MR. a : Can you initial and date EFTA00128149

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LIMITED No No No No ies) w oO co ive) oO co wo ion) wi OFFICIAL USE rt a put you thoro w 0 I'm -- n idea in the j an see fucking idea, becaus ugh, you have to bring out you don’t want to br to speak to the thin That’s 3 -- ye know, i ury’s he Bh ei you ing out. but So, th hat much. why they put me on £ you, if you are a allegedly a good you are not are supposed to ad, right? Where they’ re invulnerable, stay on that are going to be that know, so you you know you got is is an email that EFTA00128150

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 1 a : He’s the facilities manag 4 344 iu) 3 wanted to did you 4 1e I sent you this morning? 5 Is that -. be 6 on -. y. I'm not going to en’t aware that the are not aware if the o a a) 3 a K ou H = oO 8 o o ° | fe} 6 10 cameras were or were not recording -- ioe) a : -- no. We had camera issues 14 throughout the institution. oO So, I don’t know which use we had Mr. | working 18 on a project, to get some money for it. t un 20 ho No Wa No 0) B- ct 7 @ t P or August 9th, wi rding int ie) EFTA00128151

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LIMITED o oO ppened. EFTA00128152

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE ios) an a : -- became aware on August 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC Cameras were not recording. They contacted ch Fs a. and may have also notified Captain | a. Did you ever hear anything about that? ee : I knew prior that there was some cameras in the institution that needed to comte be fixed, but not ee : And would have that been based upon what they found? The AW || and SIS Lieutenant Doctor? a: No. Because we had had some funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, was working and what to get fixed. But specifically, in SHU, no. because, you said that you were trying to get funded. Did you know that there were already itution, and that’s what y were able to replace when the FBI took the cameras on the 10th, they were able to EFTA00128153

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 347 immediately replace them with the cameras that Institutions always have, like, backup cameras to fix what is But I was talking about funding to replace the is) Mm-hmm. ee : This is a memorandum for Colton, acting faciliti these are all the go with it, regarding was purchased. Mm-hmm. For this total. s that - of your S ember llth, 2018 EFTA00128154

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LIMITED w oO ~] wo 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 34 memorandum for - for administr ,000 on a work camera system at k. This work request is to replace The total Sy aan 0,000. *04:06:00 O4:0€ manager branch.” EFTA00128155

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo 19 No Wa OFFICIAL USE 349 Mm-hmm. ” phone number. know, the work order en with SigNet, Mm-hmm. ee : And then, talking with ect on or oO Fh Mm-hmm. for the new installed, EFTA00128156

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LIMITED No No i) ies) w co ioe) co its) ion) OFFICIAL USE 350 In order, b run the cables, to get the new ee: And do you know how long that typically takes to run the new wires and staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't have the staffing. ee : So, were there two people TDY’d, though, in order to do that? started TDY’ing people run the new wires, or get an ctrician to run the wir qualified to do it, but then, some of them were EFTA00128157

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE vt) ow rary 1 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it 2 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 3 February 2019, we only had one communication 4 technician -- wi 3 1 > 3 A talking to the regional office, they started a 8 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 9 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 10 for the camera -em, and all other 11 infrastructure throughout the institution. Patrick’s Day. nN Mm-hmm. 4 Eee : Below is the email sent 5 to all the institution from | Bond (Phonetic Sp. ive) oO , the northeast regional -- co a js. Q Zz rt administrator.” But point being, it looks like 21 that project had Correct? oO No Nm H ct has started, but -- No ion) And I only say that 24 because I wanted to make sure you weren’t 955 ~ Filcear cals x 7 a cayvi > 7 ro 25 confused, because you were saying we were EFTA00128158

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LIMITED ies) w oO co i=) ioe) OFFICIAL USE vt) wi S) looking a : No. No. I misspoke. What project oO cameras hadn’t been replaced. Because they were still running wires for the, were working on it? a : Well, yeah, but they weren’t gh didn't have en aff to install, to, you know, to rewire the whole place, because we had, we wanted to put one, some on the ran that never had cameras. a: That required us to TDY staff from other institutions. And know -. ee : Yeah. And were you kept EFTA00128159

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LIMITED ioe) w oO io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 353 apprise of where they were on that? On the camera proj like, where we were with it. quire about it, we were to the point where we were ee : From - and if I remember the wiring for it. that’s what - rnible *04:09:13). think was -- oO n w ie bE 3 Q a : -- been complet TDY people there. ty i) i?) lj oc fa fii) 1) rt b- rt from EFTA00128160

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) wo ioe) fee) © ion) OFFICIAL USE 354 a : And they never provided you with an update as far as, like, when it would actually be completed? ee: It was still ongoing. think, I think that whole week, they were able to complete the whole thing. Correct? I don’t know when. people come in from different institutions. did the facilities , Captain how bad the Whomever, ever explain to was, and that it kept on shutting down, ’ Ww, Cameras wer thing w back and find the EFTA00128161

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 1 tape, and we couldn’t. So, and it would break 2 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 3 have issues like that before. But it was the 4 age of the cameras. The -- 7 infrastructure issues. So. 9 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 10 been, I mean, he’s a very soft-spoken person, 11 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 2 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 3 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 4 continual problem. 15 a: So, here is what it is. We 16 don’t have money readily available at an 7 institution to fix it. That money comes from 8 what we call buildings and funds. 20 HS: Which is funded by Congress. 21 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 22 region about what the regional budget is, but 23 other institutions have issues going on. 24 ee : But being that -- EFTA00128162

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 356 ioe) done th 4 months prior to this -- io and who was ' Ww Hh o o aan rh Oo RK fu an wu a + o oO ie] re ra = Zz o K 0) fi oO oo 20 person can't -- 23 staff came, they did help. You know, but then, and the coming in EFTA00128163

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 357 ioe) that was w oO io time 13 were the cameras? sure that those 14 to be operational and working 15 16 WS: ie ll, it’s not a matter of 17 was responsible. It’s, like, working on WwaS no 21 far as, you know, okay, when tt 22 You know, they just had to be 23 EFTA00128164

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 358 No. No. It’s not. Yeah. That -- -- that can't be know how to install it. o no. 9 fo) sure that they are 1 the right p to co EFTA00128165

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US w ~] wo 10 11 ive) that that is happening is to physically check the DVR recording to see if there has a light on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and you are unable to. still live monitored fee can't tell just by looki be t’s only when you try t can say, oh my gosh, the just as simple as that. technical aspects of it Mm-hmm. Because everything is d, showing, so you ng at the cameras. o rewind them, that you y are not recording. - But that, it wasn’t I mean, there were that you had to check to see if the cameras are working or not. Oh Right basically looking to see screen up? And then, is there was some instances weren’t working, and you you get deep into it, in wouldn’t, you know -- MR. QJ: 9 That’ se: ~~ MR. QJ: 9 -- tha 1) - Absolutely. - And the captain where the hard drives don’t know that until to the system. So, I t that -. t’s what he just EFTA00128166

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LIMITED No ww oO Hi : @ 0) its] No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 360 stated MR. ae : Like, the fact that the only w if the hard drives were not way we would kr working is by going in -- MR. ae: -- to check the video. And the video, there is no videos that they can pull back. MR. a: That’s when they know the hard drives stopped recording. a : Stopped recording. And at them. But then, this is, you other technical aspects I can't imagine that -- -- yeah -- a: -- the captain would know. I sure as hell wouldn’t. oO knowing, a reoccurring problem, and well, what we didn't s is, it seems, it appears th the EFTA00128167

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) 8 wo No N 23 OFFICIAL USE 361 cameras actually stopped recording all the in July, and for half of the institution. fF : Mm-hmm. Ee: Who should have made sure that that camera system was replaced, and that we had an operational camera tem in there? ee : Well, the centralized area, and I don’t know where the break down was. £ it’ 07) a centralized area, then it would be, bh you know, within our facility department has s to -- ee : Well, the camera -- ee: -- the comm -- Eee : -- you are asking where acce its) a : -- no, the comm room. MS: 22h. The comm room. ave recorders were, were all in the SIS The actual camer But where - if you go out - where -? And I don't know the word, what’s the word? Where your centralized main area is for the whole has the cameras. But that’s fine. EFTA00128168

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 a : Not the control room. ack around where, it wo is ct Pp. ct it) oO it] s a locked door 3 within the SIS l d room, the actual 5 at you are ts] | | } w rt .) fu t area in the for the communications. t ioe) i s 03) + b ct G ct h- Oo o is 3) rt into. So, I don't know oO facilities department, you know, their 17 communication guys check that, too, if there is 18 something intricate with it. 19 ee : Now, so, was either Mr. 20 a. or a. how do you pronounce his 21 name? ie) ho No Wa i) a. were either of 25 at all, to, EFTA00128169

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ioe) a) o 5 rt i ve] And these were all o 8 IU mean, 9 we of getting k ct a 0) ' Ww w c ct ct a o kK oO = Qi U 3 12] 14 schedule for 15 16 18 And then, towards ie) 19 you know, boil down to money, with getting in to come them. 21 ee : And when people boil down to money - does ho WwW ct J wu rt ie) fe) 3 oO ie] is ct 12) Kh | | EFTA00128170

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 364 0) if) 0 is ct t com Plus, on of that, we were for TDY to come to our the cameras were onsite, but not installed? Lack of manpower and fundin And then, it kind of boiled down to funding. You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done. a: But do you have money, you can really keep the TDY people. You don’t have them. You was no actual set But again, there is no, of it will be rational by the end of this calendar year -- No. No. EFTA00128171

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 365 a: That wasn’t discussed. We were trying, you know, doing the best we can with the hand we were dealt. Ee: Okay. And Monday morning quarterbacking that. Should it have been or planned ahead, that these cameras be installed? ee : Would -? I don’t understand ae : Well, being that there , it seems that there was potentially around two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten Ee : That were recording. Ee : But that wasn’t known -- the, you know, according to the facilities, as well as the comtech, they said it was very well known that this continually happened, and that the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard drives because they kept on crapping out and not recording. ee : I mean, it is an antiquated EFTA00128172

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Right, right, right. 2 3 when you go down, yeah, 4 ¢ \ you go fix it. But nobody k 5 that you, you know, that 6 you had a system that was out for two weeks. 7 You know, I mean, you go to any other, any 8 institution, the cameras go down. 9 10 2 far as getting the new system up, we were Wa O a] ny bp. =] Q ie) =] b- ct You want to follow 5 up with any of that? You mentioned no one knew. f Co 5 7 But the problem was, according to the comtech, co the motherboard had to be 20 EE: ohm. 21 MR. ae: -- they had a failure. No No WwW N . oo b Q a rt And then, of course, no one 24 ked it until the 8th. 25 ee : Mm-hmm. EFTA00128173

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 367 1 MR. a: August 8th. When the AW and 2 the Lieutenant Doctor went in and they tried to 3 — w : -- review video. Now, being 6 that they identified the system wasn’t working J rt es wu rt 2. ny] | | 9 MR a : -- how soon should it have 10 been fixed? 11 ee: What do you mean? When they cs WwW : oO Ps) 5 Q rt a a rt oO co rr a 15 MR. a: This is two days before that 16 Epstein was found. If they identified on the 7 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not 8 working. It’s technically not recording. How 9 much of a priority is it to make sure that 20 those cameras are up and running immediately? 21 a: It’s a priority. So, what 22 happens is, and we have run into this before, 23 the parts. Sometimes the parts weren’t readily 24 available. So, you have to go somewhere and 25 call for the parts, and depending on where it EFTA00128174

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LIMITED ioe) w oO io ioe) 20 No Wa OFFICIAL USE s at, it could be in California, or whatever. long it takes a: And the k a: My unders was the hard dri that they needed. Right? was sitting with the ee : Yeah. On the 8th. They it. But then, he claims that he wasn’t able to was an SIS EFTA00128175

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 a: -- we have an emergency keys oO) wo 2 to get into any area of the institution. So, 3 if he is saying he couldn’t get in to the SIS 4 office -- 6 a: -- you got the captain, you 7 know, we got the techs that work in there. 8 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 9 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 10 can get that box open. 11 ee : So, he said that the only 2 way to be able to get into it is if he broke 3 the glass -- 4 Ee : He can break the glass. 15 ee : -- mm-hmm. It’s okay 16 that he would have done that? And then, should Yeah. If you couldn’t co 9 reach, you could just -. Well, he should hav 20 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 21 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 22 ee : Do you think it’s at all 23 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 24 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 25 working on it, or at least, I guess he was EFTA00128176

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 working on getting the parts, but then got the parts again on the, some time on the 9th, claims he didn't work on it because he couldn’t get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was going to work on it on the 10th, on that Saturday. ee: So, the question -- ee : -- and what is your -? ee: -- the question I would pose to you is, did he notify anybody that he couldn’t get in there? Did he make any attempt to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, I need to get into that office to get a part to do it, because if he had told the captain that, the captain would have got that office open for him. eee: Yeah. I agree with you. It’s a he says that the MCC was a different -. So, at any other BOP institution, in the country, that would have happened with, his experience taught him that, at the MCC, basically it could wait until tomorrow. a: They wait until tomorrow. ee: So, that’s his opinion. But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who did EFTA00128177

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LIMITED ies) w oO N oO wo te fi) rr i Q (D ct ive) 8 wo No Nm 23 OFFICIAL USE he bring up the issue to? Because my thing is, if you know it’s an emergency, and it’s a situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out. Ee: And is it, would that be ified as an emergenc a: If the cameras are down, he i) vT] on ee : That is an emergency. So them back. hould have a: -- in there, and he knows he could ha gotten into the room, because you can, we can break - if he said that stuff was sitting in there, whatever room he said it in there, guess what? You can break glass. You can break glass after hours, if you need to, and it’s an emergency to get in, into an area. , his claim is that, he has rebuilt these things so many times. And meras needed to be every knew that these c wu reinstalled, and he had been ios) ~) BR EFTA00128178

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) needed to be reinstalled. And now he’s being looked at as the fall guy. a: You know, it sounds like he could, you know -. ee: I don’t -. This is not an issue of being the fall guy. ee : So, let’s take every issue we just talked about. We talked about the camera project that we were working on. a: We were getting the people in there to working. So now, let’s talk about the specific issue that you were talking about. He did not notify anybody to get into that room, to get to that part. That part was to fix the current It had nothing to do with the new system coming in. This is, he is saying that this was a part that we needed to fix, get put in, to deal with the current system ee : Now, what about the fact that Lieutenant Doctor is saying both she and the AW knew that the cameras were down on August 8th. They told to fix them. And Ww ~) N EFTA00128179

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 they also notified Lieutenant Doctor, so that 2 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 3 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 4 being down on the 8th. 5 HE: Right. 6 ee: So, at that point, what 7 are the responsibility of the captain and the 8 AW? 9 ee: So, what the captain does is 10 he notifies facilities where FY works for, 11 the cameras are broken, you need 2 to fix them. 3 ee : So, should the captain 4 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 15 were fixed? 16 a : Well, I don’t know what 7 conversation he had with facilities to say we 8 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 9 not. 20 HN: e211, do you know 21 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 22 somebody on the 93th, is it possible to fix it 23 on the 9th? 24 ee : Well, the 9th isa 25 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that EFTA00128180

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ios) ~) LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he was told, informed, learned. ioe) w oO io my point. 12 knew that, okay, you were made aware that the 13 be fixed. Vy. So, your 14 I couldn’t 15 followed up s actually i) r a) jon to them, I don’t, you imption ild have been EFTA00128181

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 375 1 some follow up. I don’t want to speak on it, N o = ct ow, if he had told m something on 3 I don't know the 4 were taking place between id what is he Ww ct o oO 3 Like, where is that, ight now, I'm responding to what he and it makes no sense. co Yeah. No. I would just 9 think that, know, being a captain or an AW 10 would be -- 12 ee : -- whoa. The cameras are down in the institution? pack up -- ioe) sure o would at least fF ie] | | n 12] its) ) ck back in on the 9th, and say -- No ct I B i] ct om pe o w i) la you know, 25 know if, on the 9th, | ey i) EFTA00128182

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LIMITED 1 Oo) ~~] Oo OFFICIAL a : I don’t know. And we know. 1 D wu n ni) wu 7 j ) 4 my ct n -- we know he was ther o EFTA00128183

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 377 2 telephones. I think he’s now retired. ies) 4 wu et Ke o wu a I'm getting ready to w 6 in here without me. And then, he said, I 7 didn't have access to the room after that. So, n the 10th, the fos) 3 im ie] paar wu 3 = ry) n ct 12) Qo 13) 3 i) r 5 is) 2 io) fw ct c im Q wu Ke oO o Q fu c n @ I was coming in anyway. i=) ct i fu rt u what I was going to work on. 1 ee: He’s the com shop. He can 2 go anywhere, where there are computers. 4 acceptable answer that he provided? 5 a: I don’t understand that ive) oO co is 9 not in wher o is. That’s the phone 20 monitor room. 21 MR. QJ: 9 And the 22 room is how, I think it’s 23 lieutenant, and the SIA that has the keys for 25 ee : That’s what the EFTA00128184

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LIMITED Ww w wo Ww 20 No Wa OFFICIAL USE offic it) o) fu B Q | | h , oO o s + to get into that room. So, that room is all -. And you can draw keys to what Ee : Well, we were told by Lieutenant Doc the only way he could have gotten them is to break the glass, could have done. But -. And that time of gl captain is there. The contro keys in the institution is EFTA00128185

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U on Fridé ho N K ) K 1) a oO o 3 I | 25 a : So, you know -. EFTA00128186

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LIMITED 1 ~~] OFFICIAL Captain | was in the inst 3:00 p.m. about MR. a: Our understanding is, I think him. I EFTA00128187

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LIMITED Oo wo Ww oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 381 yu can’t -. to get something for, I No. That’s great to can, you can in SHU. EFTA00128188

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 382 1 HE: 8) right. 2 Ee : -- gets the people in there, 3 but we’re allocating things. But again, I want 4 to say, that was, you know, with manpower. 5 ee : Okay. Now, you’ve pretty 6 much answered this, and you can say it’s the 7 same wer, but I just want to read you the 8 question. What are your thoughts on the fact 9 that the new camera system was there since 10 October 2018, but it wasn’t installed after the 11 Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 2 3 It’s the manpower. 4 : Manpower. 15 Yeah. You know, getting 16 people, qualified people in there to do it. I 7 mean, one person couldn’t do that. It was, and 8 we were putting in new camer in new areas 9 So, he needed more people. One person couldn’t 20 do it. 21 ee : Okay. Do you mind just 22 initialing? And don’t have to go through this, 23 the top is fine. Anything more on the 24 camera issue? a : Oh, - You got more EFTA00128189

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo is) b No Wa OFFICIAL USE 383 I think the -. We then just a couple of BOP’s findir up? director at the time. was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. And the subject is, “Urgent re Potential s death.” leak in hospital regarding Ep EFTA00128190

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 w ~] ive) a : -- yeah. It says, “Please ensure this information is given to the OIG FBI. Thanks.” ee: Mm-hmm. ee : And then, this next one, like you said, is from Ormand to the director. Subject, “Prison guards skip mandatory checks before Epstein’s death.” This, the body says, “Couldn’t see the entire article on my phone, but I wouldn’t be surprised there are staff that are paid contacts for local media outlets. This has also been di 7] cussed at the department level, all the way to the White House. And who knows who may have overheard those discussions.” a : Mm-hmm. eee: Do you know anything about leaks in the media from the MCC? a: So, what happened was, when MMMM (Phonetic Sp. *04:30:17) came to see me, the issue we had was - and I told him about it - was there was a article in the Post that took a picture of our staff, and our staff rode with Epstein on it. So, I told | about it, and I guess they said one of the paramedics had EFTA00128191

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) a ao wn leaked the information. ee : Like, took a picture of them, like -- ee: Took a picture -- ee : -- posing with him? a: -- took a picture of them coming in the room, when they got to the emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein being rolled in. And our - what do you call it? - and our staff. So, I talked to || about that, and then, I had also told him that, you know, there might be some staff, you know, because, and I didn't know where it was coming from, because the information was just coming out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, where is this, you know, coming from? So, I called and made him aware, you know, told him about it when he came on Sunday. But the main one was because of the picture in the Post. Hn: «Now, who is it that you suspect would have been leaking information to I couldn’t, I couldn’t even tell. But I just was, you know, with this whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had EFTA00128192

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo I mean, I know nothing, but what I do I don’t know. information, you mean? ee : No. I said it was towards me. EFTA00128193

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LIMITED oO wo oO No i) Uh-huh. I mean, going on. , I mean, EFTA00128194

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LIMITED oO wo Ww oO oo wo KK Wa OFFICIAL USE know, put on Mm-hmm. all that informat was going, you know -- -- gia anyone believed that a certain pe king information? No. I hear if didn't a certain information person. I didn't, did And initialing and dating that? though, somebody in the information? And I’m not -- that And I don’t mean ion EFTA00128195

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 389 1 personally. I just mean -- Oo w oO oo 20 information -- 95 EFTA00128196

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U So, I don’t wa Oo ~] about s will. anything 12 about Epstein changing his will just prior Oo I 21 Or hearing it on the 23 it in an official capacity? er hear about D jou KNOW EFTA00128197

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 391 if it’s true? brother. Right? ‘t comment on have been taken, If it was learned changed just prior to his death, do you believe any specific actions should have been taken? Ee : I don’t know anything. I mean, I can't comment on that. (Indiscernible *04 think we have to r the - where is that? ee : Yeah. Do you have it? And I don’t know what we actually need to cite after action? (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This Ph is the after action report. Is that -? That EFTA00128198

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ios) fe) ise) 1 the BOP created in response. So, just a few 2 quick questions on it. It says, “On August 3 lst, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented 4 they were notified by correctional systems of a 5 form received from the United States Marshal 6 Service, the previous day, stating inmate 7 Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies.” 8 ee : Mm-hmm. 9 | ti(‘iés@s Do you know anything 0 about that, and what transpired? rt hat again. 3 just to refresh your memory of a time, 4 timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of 15 psychological -- 16 a : Psychological observation. 20 “Two days later” - so, there’s July 31st and 21 August lst - “8: a.m., 22 they were notified by correctional systems of a 23 form received from the United States Marshal 24 Service, the previous day.” So, I guess on 25 July 30th. EFTA00128199

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 393 EE: n-bon. ee : The 3lst, I mean. ate Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies.” This was the BOP’s finding. Do you know anything t that? ae: I don’t know anything about that. And that’s before, when he first came in rt ee : Or potential harm from I didn't. You don’t know anything ee : Okay. And do you know about the suicidal tendenci that he was showin ee: No. All right. And then, on the same date, August lst, 2019, wu ae wu t 3 ct 7 p b wu fh ter the Tartaglior EFTA00128200

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo OFFIC AL USE Mm-hmm. a recommendation for follow up in one week. in conducting this rt.” Did you learn it’s -- this is just some want to know all of this, or anything. The tive findings. your EFTA00128201

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 ios) wo wm “ next one. It says, a: Don’t bring this guy in on another case. All right? If the next time Significant -- this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring this guy, don’t fucking do it. ee: It says, “Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding admission/release status, ARS.” ee : Sentry does not reflect inmate Epstein being escorted from the institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand form is on file, documenting -- Ee : -- having received him from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional review revealed inmate Epstein departed the institution for a total of four court appearances, and only one of these occasions was an ARS change made within Sentry. It appears there is a culture of foregoing this vital function, due to the likelihood of the inmate returning from court. This lapse in procedure is a severe inmate accountability EFTA00128202

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LIMITED ho No i) ie) ioe) w oO io w oO co its) Wa wi OFFICIAL USE ios) Ye] a i) a looked incorrect. I know the regional said that a pre-trial institution an inmate to go into court. So, he doesn’t have to be keyed out on the ARS. it, they looked at it after the fact, and said there was nothing wrong with that. thinking, thing like you said, he was going out to court, but th ee: All right. And w talking a m y can outcount him in that area. like, pre-remo something like thé when EFTA00128203

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LIMITED Oo) Oo OFFICIAL U 397 No. Going to court. And That’s what on the El. EFTA00128204

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO co ioe) oO co © nN ion) wi OFFICIAL USE ios) io co | i fu 5 bh ts) w t 0) it says, “No notations concerning a requirement for a cellmate were entered into the SHU program, and subsequently available for officers to reference.” Who would have been r noting that in the SHU program? a: The SHU program is -- don't know, from what I understand, and was told after the fact, that they couldn’t find th 0) information on Epstein in the SHU program. So, I don't know how you came to that conclusion. ME: We Gidn't. BoP came to ee : Right. So, I don't know EFTA00128205

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ios) ive] io 1 where that conclusion came from because from 2 what I gather, they couldn’t get - they 3 couldn’t find the -. Because usually -- 4 Ee: Well, they found the w Nh wo Np n oO c rt ct fom o het © K oO Ws. c it) rt o KK bet ia b- a p- ct oO ion oO ght. The 292s usually had 7 to have everything indicated on it. So -. 8 ee : And on that we were 9 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 10 and it should have been larger. Had you 11 anything about people removing documents from 2 files? 3 ee: From what I understand, and 4 was told, that there was no file. They 15 couldn’t -. They had every other inmates file, 16 but not his. 7 eee: They couldn’t even find 8 it. You didn't think they could find his file 9 at all? 20 HS: «XO. 0S That’s what was told to 21 me 22 ee : And who told you that? 23 Ee : I think I heard that after 24 the fact. I don’t know if the regional 25 director told me after they came in and did the EFTA00128206

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w oO fos) ioe) oo © ion) OFFICIAL USE that they couldn’t Clinton -- 7:40:44) (Indiscernible *0 (Indis nible *04:40:45) Right. was don’t know who was doing or the OIC. So, fin fter down ac ther , in dit. So, I don't they found out and had them ertain « to the original e or not. entered in the SHU the lieutenant, to ensuring that it’s all if to h the captain im, that EFTA00128207

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo OFFIC AL USE 401 OIC on the night wa HE: «So, would one of them had onsibility to do But that should have y when the directive was ee : So, from Doctor, or Ms. here’s coming off of a cellmate -- EFTA00128208

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo OFFICIAL USE a : Right. That would hav in t from the you been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one EFTA00128209

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE wu 3 . 3 3 fu ct nn} Pe) it) het 1) " ct y 1) cellmate, departs institutions will tell with all belon s, you know -- w @ Q wu f wn @ documentation we showed WAB. ee : Yeah. And it this wrong? what the whole A umption that he was EFTA00128210

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LIMITED 8 OFFICIAL when a was ion, actually d through the d, we were, ople tho without looking at the documentation, ed court. from court and got rele ist going starting thi EFTA00128211

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 405 to read the question. If the documents list Reyes as being WAB, and if they had the transfer list, say he went to court and did not return? ee: I can't answer that. Epstein was provided a social call by the institutional duty officer.” Does that mean institutional duty officer mean? Ee : So, what the duty officer , is after hours, they walk around and, you fo know, report emergencies, you know -. highest ranking official there? a: That comes on at night. You know, there with the lieutenants. But they like, the, basically the OIC for the EFTA00128212

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo i=) ive) oO co wo No nN No ion) 24 OFFICIAL orc, but Kay. This call was on an unmonitored line. It is extremely concerning why this call would have been placed, and why it w suld be done on an unmonitored line. Without further interviews, find class mean, determine the rea call.” Just, why does it a: I don't know. Both are it extremely ely Would as ext T y concerning? Ee : I mean, it would be -. I think, I would -- HE: «t's certainly wrong. a : -- it would be -- ee : -- it was an issue. EFTA00128213

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) extremely concerning. 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the n number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the A other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officer i] ' with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be returning, and inmate Epstein would require a cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate upon his return to SHU.” My question to you is, just, how did they know this information? How would they have obtained that information? Do you know? a: I don’t know. Like I said, I don’t know who they spoke to during this after action. ee : Were they doing interviews, though? HS: Ss tswasn’t there. ee: Were they authorized, though, if OIG and FBI are doing an investigation, is the after action team 4 EFTA00128214

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 authorized to come in and interview people? ee: So, I’ve done after actions. And there is a point where you come to it, where you, if it’s an OIG or FBI investigation, that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain people because it might impede an investigation. Like, if you are going to look at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you can't because most of the time, it’s been taken. So, I don’t know -. ee : So, possibly from that memo, though, that was created? If they are not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm assuming they are not really supposed to be doing interviews. a : I mean, I don't know who authorized them to come in and do the investigation. I don’t know. It was, you know, who set the parameters on it. I can't speak on that. ee : And is it a normal for them to do something like this, when there is an actual FBI and OIG investigation? ee: We do after actions. So, don't know -. 408 I EFTA00128215

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) 8 wo No Nm 23 OFFICIAL USE oO ive) a : But I mean, do they do after actions typically, when there is an open, criminal investigation, though? ee: Not typically. a: So, I don't know. And again, I don’t want to speculate. I don’t know who authorized it. I don’t know if they got permission from the department to come down and do it. I don’t want to -. ee : Sure. “August 10th, of. a.m. A body alarm Housing Unit. SHU staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in cell Z06-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this . Staff entered the cell and attempted to wake Epstein. Control center announced a medical emergency, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation,” or CPR, “was initiated.” So, the question here is, I guess I’1ll start with. Well, the information that we have is mz | and || were there. | FY immediately went into the cell. EFTA00128216

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo 95 OFFICIAL USE him to immediately have he wai Mm-hmm. Upon 21 Mm-hmm. Was cell? Or go into the staff 10, you wait for eno finding Epstein. it appropriate fo o Oo Hh oO KR 410 EFTA00128217

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 411 oO did not. tation, oO co 20 appropriately. 22 that from his training experience? EFTA00128218

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 physician. And we’ve already addressed this. My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. ee: Mm-hmm. HE: «Or August 10th, 2019, the two assigned morning watch SHU officers failed to make their designated rounds, or count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate a call for assistance. The medical response to the incident was timely, efficient, and exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS personnel.” Are you aware of how - what information they obtained to say that the SHU officers failed to make their designated rounds or counts? a: I don’t know. ee : No? And I just say this because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot of this information was provided from you to Ray, and Ray was providing it to whomever, that were —-- EFTA00128219

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo 95 a : But I wasn’t here when this was. think a lot of this stuff, though, was why I'm asking know where by the institution supplement. EFTA00128220

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 1 Additionally, the IDO reports 2 document the condition of SHU 3 when observations have shown the SHU to be less satisfactory.” 4 than ry. w that? Do you agree with Do you have any that asse comment on sment? i) 6 a: Oh, I don't know what day 7 they went in there. Again, when these 8 observations were done, I wasn’t the warden in 9 the institution. 10 ae : Okay. But prior to, when 11 you were the warden, do you know about the 2 institution duty officers not routinely 3 visiting the SHU each day as required? 4 Ee : No. I didn't know about 15 that. 16 Ee : You didn't know about 7 that 8 ae: I didn't. I ensured 9 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 20 made sure the areas were clean. So. 21 a 22 ultimate responsibility when they would 07] 25 rounds in the unit. Okay. Check And what same thing, to on the inmates. EFTA00128221

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo ive) co OFFICIAL Make sure there are no issues. said, the idea was the guy that’s on at night? ee: That’s the duty The institution duty officer. wo officer. at night, though? ee : They use - they typically work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 2:00 to 9:00. ver the ae : Because I thought it was explained to me, it was kind of, like, the person in charg ee: -- the duty officer is just ff. | tsti‘i‘iz*@r But they were actually supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds the bridge to the executive s a : And then, again, I don’t were or were not. I don’t know were, you know, what he was looking USE 415 EFTA00128222

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 2 ee : Now, why would, was ~ EFTA00128223

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U mn) K D ret K fe) im D other Oo) unit man It’s 15 ee : 12 or higher. a : And some, like, 17 GS-lls. Our trust fund supe 20 a: What le Oo EFTA00128224

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LIMITED 1 Oo ~] Oo K T w a D i] OFFICIAL would be -- H ) fw 3 + in + ) | | fe) fe) fe) H QO ny] ct wu Fh Hh 0 KB Q ct 7 wu ct H J fu rt on i) Fh fe) Ki 1) : re) rt ae @ pb Q n rt hb 1) o be le re) f to in the GS level is 15. And that is ally a full (Ind >] in the military. EFTA00128225

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 419 Oo ie) And MCC was one of is one. Your pre-trials Your big lows. fF - Bp — o rl fe) RK ct u pb Certain mediums. you maintaine oO oo EFTA00128226

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 420 oO 7 ME: ind oO 17 of money. co 20 | tsti‘i‘iz*@r Remember, I think tt 95 EFTA00128227

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LIMITED w oO wo 3 3 OFFICIAL USE two I was just that, “Psycho Epstein contained error as a black inmate, and by about , including that said he was blac that? on why I was s in identifying Epstein y- So, is the report EFTA00128228

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 422 whoever was doing that review. ee : All right. “SHU has multiple cells equipped with video recording capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in one of these cells. And there appears to be no " set guidance on when to utilize these cell 0) its] So, you already said you didn't believe, like, correc ee: -- let me correct that. None of the cells, none of the cells that we had in SHU had cameras in the cells were being, working and being used. The only ones up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is Ten South. ee: -- nowhere else in cameras in the cell. Hmm. Ten South, we have it in the EFTA00128229

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U like, Nine @ | | wy @ H t ) wu 3 ft) RK wu A t 5 i} i} t o 7) -- ins 2 mR. QR: «so -- in) n O | EFTA00128230

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 424 Ww wo ive 4 ee: Right. Because a lot of 5 people that come in, when they first come in, 6 is part of there, actually part of 7 Nine South. We call it -. It’s part of an 8 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 9 have never been there, they don’t 10 differentiate. 11 ee : So, being that these are 2 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 3 your response to them saying that there appears 4 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 5 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 16 Was there guidance on that? 7 WN: «ss Yeah. Ten South, like I or the SAMs inmates. Les] n fu p. Q = wu n n ue] om a a Fh bh Qo fu bt ' tet Ph 21 ee : -- also believe that that 22 is an incorrect statement, then? 23 Ee : If that’s what they are 24 referring to, I do believe it is. 25 ee : And you believe there was EFTA00128231

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LIMITED io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 425 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? Ten South is -- ee : For a single cell. one wi! informed that there had cameras m MR. EJ: = we wasn’t supped to be utilized anymore. It that Ten South actually suppos to be phased out. sed to be wha EFTA00128232

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) brought out during the time, after 9/11, to house terrorists inmates. ee: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Have you ever heard anything about the fact that no one was supposed to be housed up there anymore (Indiscernible *04:57:12)? ee : No. It’s not -. It’s not to house terrorists’ inmates. It’s to house inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an inmate housed for espionage. You know? And then -- MR. a: Was it supposed to have been phased out due to PREA concerns? ‘t -. I don’t know Hw oy Bb om 5 f anything about that. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. ee : Okay. The next one is, the report also shows that, “A review was done regarding the overtime conducted by the C.0O.s at the MCC, and the shortage of staff.” It doesn't say much about it. Do you know what 426 EFTA00128233

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 427 a I was relieving ou an example. 7 posts, and on 8 in and work a pce I -- oO iw ou, as 12 a-. Was 13 14 mean, hiring. 15 on »lain what 23 EFTA00128234

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that 2 a : We all knew it was an abuse. I mean, we -. ies) 4 with th IG about, w the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So oO | I co 1 ee: The same doctor. But again, short. ive) a: That’s, like -- know? fos) | ! ct Dp Q c A 0) wo 20 all the time. 21 Fs t : hiring. We had 22 a lot o we would Fh cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, 24 would you know, had to make do with EFTA00128235

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 a : Now, was there, like, a 2 plan in place to try to get you guys up to > N wo ies) proper staffing levels? 4 ee: I mean, we were working on 5 hiring. You know, and getting people in. But 6 it’s a process. You know? To get somebody 7 hired, it takes between six and eight months. 8 ee : And were there a number 9 of people in the pipeline? 10 a : Not really. I mean, we went 11 out and did recruiting, because we were 2 competing with other agencies. 4 Ee : You know? Other agencies 15 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 16 You know? To get people on. So, it was just a i matter of, you know, getting people on board. 8 ee : And do you think it could 9 have been handled better by some, in some way, 20 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 21 a: There’s certain things we 22 don’t control. Staffing. You know, the 23 budget. We don’t -. I don’t -. We don’t 24 control that. I mean, we can turn around and 25 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, EFTA00128236

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 430 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and it said, this is what you are getting, you don’t -. We need to work with what we’ve got. ee : No, and I understand that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, covering Epstein in a lie *05:00:18), and having such high-profile inmates. Was there - do you think that there could have been anything done better, though, by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was better staffed? a: You could - so, let’s go TDY - we couldn’t really, couldn't TDY to a point, but then, there are other institutions around the agency that were, you know, the staffing was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out to help, you know? And then, it just brought down the finding. I mean, and getting people to clear your background. Not everybody can clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a job for you, but can you pass the guidelines? ee: And a lot of time, do we know. EFTA00128237

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a : All right. So, we’re literally less than half of a page left. ee: Mm-hmm. ee : But this next one is just going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of read it -- Ee: -- along with me because it’s so long. “He was also an inmate who had risk factors for assault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. Although these issues were noted, well documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate.” The report continues. “It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned cellmate. The captain personally instructed the lieutenants, individually. A mass email was distributed by psychology, and it is EFTA00128238

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 432 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 apparent some SHU officers were aware. Although many people acknowledge this is an important fact, ultimately, the final staff responsible for not - or did not ensure the requirement was met, including vital directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and " amass email does not ensure -. (Indiscernible *05:02:20) -- ee: Mm-hmm. ee : -- including vital directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and a mass email does not ensure those who truly need that information do, in fact, receive it timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was actually placed with a cellmate when removed from psychological -- ee: Mm-hmm. ee : -- observation. After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or a fail safe system established, to ensure inmate Epstein -- a: Mm-hmm. ee: -- would have had a cellmate going forward.” So, I guess, first and foremost, do you believe, probably the EFTA00128239

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE primary reason wh own life was because he didn't On top of the fact that they weren’t conducting rounds in SHU? And counts. would it have certainly helped prevent his Q p. a death by one) having an inmate; and two) rounds and counts conduc a: Oh, if people did their job. ee : But the way that the government can better ensure that that doesn't it is mandated happen is by ensuring that, wi that someone has a cellmate, they cellmate. | tti(‘éii@s And when they do their job, like you conduct rounds EFTA00128240

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe would have helped keep him alive today, if, you know, from the government perspective? ee: I mean, again, I'm going to just say, I can't say what would have kept him alive, but I will say, you know, if people made their rounds, did their job, followed instructions that they were given, then it might have -. Could have minimized what, you know -- MM: the risk. es : -- you know, what happened. The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he would have done it or not done it. If that would have stopped him. Ee : Now, as far as this last sentence, what they wrote, “After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or fail safe system established to ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate going forward.” What do you think could have been done, and who should have done it? ee: So, directives and the information was conveyed to people verbally, documented on forms, on what you are supposed EFTA00128241

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE : Now, what signs do you ~ t to me, about doing the 30-minute cifically talking (Indiscernible requirement. It was put doing their job. I mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, you in writing, what more do we s kind of my one who wrote I'm curious myself -- -- that could have been EFTA00128242

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LIMITED ies) w K ie) £ s ie) =| o wu rt n wu oO ] Q i) be) oO co ive) w oO co wo OFFICIAL USE wo an done. opinion. morning quarterback that came in opinion. I don’t know what their ulterior you think of any -- 1g that wasn’t this could have helped, or maybe he should have done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. a: I can't think of anything they should . a: I know it’s bound to - based .Q 18) ct rt fe) ul] 0 ton ia x 5 fe) = you mentioned that you ondary selec another replacement for EFTA00128243

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 437 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 keep moving. But is it possible that a list should have been created? That, you know, should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of maybe possible five inmates that you could choose from? ee: But I mean, under, you know, different inmates, we can do that, but he was a high-profile inmate that -- MR. QJ: 9 vm-hon. ee: -- I would have had to get that name and run it up to the department, to see if it was okay. it wasn’t just him. I was going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you to, you know, we’re going to put this guy -. I was, just like with the other ones, sent up to the department. So, again, it would have been based on who was there. extreme detail that had to go into selection, I think what ma is asking you is, should have there been a list of names that the higher ups signed off on, in case someone was removed, EFTA00128244

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 438 they didn't come back, were transferred, things like this. MR. ae : Like, that’s what they list 7] on w Hh wu bh bh n wu Hh 1.) i ra ss T i} i} but then it would have still been based on who was ct 7 oO int o ct a wu ot o. FT] day, at the time. he’s saying, like, e or two. So, if this person is not -- what about this one? That one is not there, either. But maybe You know, that of thing. Or just -- -- stand by a hunch? EFTA00128245

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LIMITED OFFICIAL ating in that’s what was your own you know, they are referring to this as the BOP, and we are EFTA00128246

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co wo OFFICIAL USE 440 m i) an ee : And what are some things been done? : -- but those are individuals that are coming in, looking a situation, ct a u rt weren’t deeply involved in it. ones that were told, h , and it’s going all the way up to the department. That wasn’t -. That wasn’t privy a: That was a need to know basis. MR. a: But unfortunately, ev is who going to eventually look at this case -- y ) 5 Oo n iu) if we’re looking at assessing the what happened in talking about. So, in real time, now, if they EFTA00128247

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 441 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had known that, hey, you know what? These names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it would have been a different thought process. MR. a: And was it possible - and maybe you discussed this - was it possible that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have replaced -? Did they have the ability to replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they have to come up the chain of command, for the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate -? ae : They were instructed, hey, let us know when - where he’s to have a cellmate at all time - and to notify, let someone know. Because again, due to the individual that he was, you just don’t want to throw anybody. MR. a: Okay. But doesn't that kind of hinder them from taking action? Let’s say, at that point on that day, you are not in the institution, Captain | was there, I understand. ee: There was an acting warden there. You had the executive staff there. EFTA00128248

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 442 1 Just because the warden is not there doesn't mean the institution doesn't run. That’s why 3 you have, you know, people acting on your 4 behalf. You know? That could make -- 5 So, may -- those decisions. -- maybe, what a. oO I + i 8 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 9 it sounds like you would have to go over your 10 head to even make thé has to go to 11 the regional director level, would the 2 associate warden have the ability to go to the 3 regional director, or would have they known to 4 go to the regional director? 16 happen, right? They would have -- 7 HE: «ell, it did happen. 8 ae: -- no, I'm saying, as far as 9 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 20 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 21 working. 23 Ee : Because I got the government 24 phone. And they’re going to call me and tell me, hey, this is what we got going on. He EFTA00128249

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) needs a cellmate. okay, let’s see wh up. MR. SE: always available. available, that if being made, up the That’s why I had ( So, to, I get call even if I'm off, I issue, an emergenc MR. SE: ask, should the SH the ability? Your been, you have tha should have made t 443 And then, I would be, like, at we have, so we can send it So, basically, you were fo Someone was alway the proper notification was chain of command -- Right. -- a newer inmate could have That’s why I carried it. Indiscernible *05:10:23). s all hours of the night, 'm not off. If there is an y, I'm called. Yeah. Okay. And if someone does U officers have been given answer to that would have t phone with you, someone hat notification. So -- Right. -- someone in the higher -- And they -- -- of command. -- and they would contact EFTA00128250

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co 20 No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 444 m 0) a: off on paper. Bec it was not, like, I'm I am using my leave. But I'm still on duty beca you can call me on my phone. iversation, ae: Thank God. conversations, and this after-action report swed those topics, what are I think -. I like, I - again - I'm giving personal opinions. I'm not -- ee : Again, and I'm not asking killed himself. Right What I'm saying is, what are the failures of EFTA00128251

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 1 the BOP? He killed himself because he N ies) ain’t stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, 4 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in w prison. o Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - Yeah. cs] fos) | | and I'm not, i=) J ) J A absolutely not asking -- a R No. as what is his nN | | wu o r wu ‘ ive) mental state, and could have he had the ability : But I can't -- -- but are the failures, t oO 7 as you see them, after we reviewed all this, 8 that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, 9 in this instance? Unless you don’t think that 20 they did anything wrong. 24 I can look at it and say, we’re looking at 25 people not making rounds and all that. But EFTA00128252

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there’s 2 don’t want to sit here and ies) w oO co leader of i=) anization that, you know, rt Q is 0] n rt be 3) 5 Hh e) BK is a very relevan 12 ause -- 13 Mm-hmm. 14 you know, this was the 15 we’re just -. All ing is, what do you think the st last five hours. mean, if we would H You didn't counting. unit, to check 24 A is the ba ie) EFTA00128253

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 right ther o 4 all the other stuff, o And would w -- like they wer suppo Okay. What actions could oO co 20 a: That’s all. I mean, you co 22 It just, it 23 nswer would be, conduct your your counts. Get a -- EFTA00128254

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co LIMITED OFFICIAL USE G) 0) rt 0) te oO ifs | io not doing But I mean -- c Ww Ke i) fw a 15 d, since died, and before, 23 thing that’ 24 doing their and nine EFTA00128255

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) w ~ of ten, every time you look into something, it is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not counting, you know? So, the norma things. instances, where we find out that they didn't have cellmates? ee : Single cell. You know, I mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you look at it, and you look at the numbers of single cell inmates. But there is instances where, you know, sometimes you do have to put somebo in a cell single. a: But, you know, there is other suicides, and they don’t stop. You know? Some of it is, you know, staff had no control and some staff had control over it. ee : And I do apologize. I said that was the last question, but I guess over should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking yourself, is there anything that you should have done differently? ee : As the MCC warden? EFTA00128256

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LIMITED Oo wi Oo OFFICIAL U a : As far as what? This situation? Yeah. Just anything that know, like, I should have done this better, or I could oe b A of thing. MR. ae: Is there anything you think EFTA00128257

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 451 Don’t ask him that. a: Not that I can think of. You have a right to remain silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, did that. ust sat there and answered = you know? a : Yeah. No. We got you. a: Like, I was impr uldn’t go through this. I to the bathroom, like, all. I want to take a nap. He 1 the questions. EFTA00128258

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 w ~] wo 10 11 a : -- the recording is showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent | a. and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00128259

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00128260