wo oO co ho No uw DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE IN CTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00118867

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ies) OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL co io ioe) co EFTA00118868

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. QRRMJ: his is Special Agent J 2 a. It’s September 22nd. The time is ive) approximately 12:50 p.m. w a No =] ho be =) w 3 @ b. o) 6 a. I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. 7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 8 General, New York Field Office, and these are 9 my credentials. 10 MR 1 MR interview with unit 2 manager, FY a. is being conducted 3 as part of an official U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office 5 investigation. Again, today’s date is 16 September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m. 7 This interview is being conducted at the 8 Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, New 9 York Also present is D G Senior Special 20 EFTA00118869

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 MR. ae : Senior Special Agent I'm a unit wi 5 w 3 oO oY’d here, temporarily. 7 Thank you for 8 oO AJ At MDC Brooklyn. This Thank i=) a 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death ie) 0 mh bh s] 3 iT] ct @ qG i) Hh Bh H Ui) te is ue] wn rt iv) fm 5 and the surrounding 3 circumstances And you are being asked to 4 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 5 Will you agree to voluntary interview with wu 16 the DOJ/OIG? J 5 “ om it] Thank you. 9 MR. a: Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 II1-22 ao 5 oe United States 21 Department of Justice, 22 General, Warnings and 23 ted to Provide In 24 “You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00118870

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job “” performance failure and security failure. MR. a : And just so you’re aware, that’s what we’re writing on everybody that we interview. MR. a : Okay. That’s fine. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : No problem. MR. a: “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” The waiver states, "I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” Please read the form, review the form. If you EFTA00118871

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 understand, please print your name and sign on will right side. That’s over here. Ww o i] ct rt mw rt het . I'm signing as o Oo hy al bh Qo 1) of the Inspector 7 MR. Ee : And you understand, this 8 is a voluntary interview, you don’t have to 9 our questions. You can stop it at any 0 time. Correct? ies) oO ao 5 - mo n 9 MR. ee : This is Senior I'm signing as the 22 MR. ae: My phone is in there. 23 MR. a : Oh. There you go. 24 Thank Before starting 25 the I would like to place you under EFTA00118872

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE truth and nothing but the interview? MR. GJ: «1 do. hand down. Please let me understand any questions, repeat it, or rephrase it your current home addres MR. a : My cur n 7) e your the truth during this know if and I’1ll try to for you. °? rent home address is showed me your credentials. Can you show that to me one more U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states fF a. Unit Manager, MCC New York on it. Thank Yup. for that. EFTA00118873

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LIMITED ies) wi co oO ive) co OFFICIAL USE phone number? What is your current cell co current cell phone number hool and some 5 wu at college? studied at MR. J: 1 Technical Institute, went to, I t and certific there for fu i) Is that in New That’s in Lincoln Tech, Union. Ok Union, New understand. Do you r Ome years—as Army, years active, three years, nine months National Guard. and received a i) have four EFTA00118874

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wo LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. a: Are you currently still in WwW ee 2 io] -- are you discharged? w wy scharged. Honorable? 1orable discharge. co a3 And what grade? you for that. Thank 1 you for your service. And what was the enter 2 duty date with the BOP? 4 MR. a: And when did you graduate 5 from BOP training? o ad Hmm. 7 MR. a: If you don’t remember. A co 21 MR. ae: So, 1994. Around then. 23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after 24 So, "94, Some time. 25 And you mentioned that you’re EFTA00118875

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 w ~] wo 10 11 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the MDC program. MR. a : That is correct. MR. QJ: «And you were TDY from MCC? MR. a : That is correct. MR. a: When did you start at the MCC? MR. a : I came here, I want to say, around a month and a half ago because they’re remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they sent me over here, and there was a -. They gave me a letter of, I want to 0] ay it said, not temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until further notice. MR. a: And your position in August of 2019 was unit manager, also? MR. a : Yes. MR. a: And which units, again, were you? MR. QJ: Unit. My unit was unit 11. North 11 South. And 9 North at the time. MR. a: Do you recall being interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding the Epstein matter in August 2019? MR. QJ: «Yes. EFTA00118876

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : What I have in front of me is a 302. It’s called a report, of investigation written by the FBI(Indiscernible *00:07:49), and peitten bythe Bt, and I'm not going to read through the whole thing, but we’re going to go through a few portions that we need clarification on. And we’ll go from there. The paragraph that I'm starting with, it starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry - is 8/16/2019. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. a : Because the interview was on 8/12/2019. MR. QJ: 98/12/2019. During the days” - I'm reading from the memo - “during the days prior to Epstein’s death, | ran into Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or Thursday. Epstein told FY he needed to set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp. *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set it up because he was always meeting with his lawyers,—and was never in the SHU. Epstein asked ft to assist him because his normal EFTA00118877

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LIMITED ive) w io OFFICIAL USE 12 unit manager was on leave. Who was his normal unit manager? MR. a : His normal unit manager was Unit Manager a. MR. a: “Epstein.” Sorry. ‘i the system and verified the only call A looked in made by Epstein, from the MCC minute call given to inmates at the time of the initial intaking to the facility. fF made ein, and obtair to activate it. The EFTA00118878

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has to activate it. MR. a: Okay. What do they have to do activate it? MR. a: What they have to do is, they would have to get on the phone, which, he was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a phone call for every 30 days. So, in general population, they would get on the phone, they would record their voice. Once they record, by pushing 111, once they record their voice, then it would actually activate, and then they can't money on the phone, and then have to put money on a phone, then they could use the phone. MR. a: So, when you gave him the pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet MR. a : That is correct. MR. a : -- he still had to active it. MR. a : That is correct. MR. a : And is it that he has to put money on it, too? MR. a : That is correct. MR. a: Okay. EFTA00118879

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And was there any way for him to activate it, with his current situation at the time being in the SHU? MR. a : Not that particular day, he was requested a phone. It would have took him, to actually activate it in SHU, and add money to it, because when you activate it in Special Housing Unit, let’s say he activates it to today. He would have to fill out a green form. Usually, they would do it on the computer. They don’t have computers in SHU where they could do it. So, they would have to fill out a green form, which would have to be given to them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. That green form is then filled out by them. And then, it’s submitted to our ITS, which then will put it, put the money on the money on his account. I would say it would take, like, three or four days, to a week, for it to actually be activated. Be in his account. MR. a : And was he provided a green form? MR. a : No. Because at that particular time, I just gave him the pin and pack. That was it. EFTA00118880

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 MR. Ee : So, the pin and pack 2 couldn’t be used, though, is what you’re 3 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then 4 request a green form? 5 MR a : That is correct. When 6 inmates originally come in, we give them their 7 pin and pack then. So, it should have been 8 activated when he first came in the building. wo F Okay. Do you know why it i=) wu ee) o ins 11 MR. a : I wasn’t his unit team. 2 wR. RR: sure. should have been WwW Fs) ies Cc rr bh rt t wi a Okay. , but the way 16 that this went, was you provided him with it, 7 but what you provided him, he couldn’t have 8 actually used? 9 MR. J: No. 20 MR. QJ: And at what point does he 21 request the green form? 22 MR. a : I was going to actually, the 23 next day, give him that green form, because I 24 knew, I knew it was the next step. EFTA00118881

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. a : He didn't even have to ask Rr an 2 for that, because I knew it was the next step. 3 Once again, he wasn’t my inmate, but I knew, as 4 unit manager -- Okay. fon) w a a -- what was the next step. The next step was to give him the green form, 8 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this wo amount of money on my form. And then, i=) to him that way. the days N 5 ro) rom i] he ive) leading up to Epstein’s death, you ran into him 4 and he asked Ph or it. Did you give it to him 5 that day, or did you give it to him the day -? 16 MR. QJ: No.) =That day. 7 MR. QJ: the 9th? Lee) 5 ’ c ue] 9 MR. Ee : So, the day prior to him 21 MR. QJ: Ss vup. 23 MR. a : And correction. I'm sorry. 24 Because it’s not done by computers, I want to 25 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he EFTA00118882

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do it over the phone. I do apologize. He can actually put money over the phone. MR. a : Okay. But there was no phone for him to actually do that with? MR. a: No. Not, like, as far as a phone to give it to, and let him record it. No. MR. a : But being assigned to the SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being in the attorney conference. I mean, would he have the ability to activate that? MR. a : In the attorney conference, there was no, there is no phone in there. MR. a : In the SHU, though, could he activated it? MR. a : In the SHU, we would have to actually give him the phone, the phone would have to be during his validation time. So, that validation times starts in the time that you come in the prison. So, say if he came in on the 19th, his activation time would be the 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. So, being that he never used the phone, he would be in there with an activated, probably, EFTA00118883

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 the next day. 2 MR. a : But from within the SHU? Within the SHU. If he was ies) a w a Okay. oO a If he was given a phone. co Fs) And they do have phones 9 in the SHU, though. Is that what you’re 10 saying? WwW id cy cS n ine fu quick question. That 4 you mentioned it was on the 9th? 15 MR. QM: «well, its 16 leading up, he asked for it, but 7 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him. 8 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he 9 asked for it 20 MR. BMJ: No.) =The actual date that he 21 asked for the form, because the same day he 22 asked for a phone, I gave him his -- 23 MR. a : Oh. Because yeah, in the 24 interview that you had, you know, a couple days 25 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during EFTA00118884

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ioe) fee) OFFICIAL USE fe) 7s prior to Epstein’s death. So, days -- a (Indiscernible *00:13:34). MR. a : -- plural. a: Right, right, right. MR. QJ: 39 (indiscernible *00:13:36) -- day or Thursday. MR. MR. was al came d woul set it I'm not sure what ways in court, own, and I saw him with his lawyer. So, d, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to el a 7 D ry o in court, or was EFTA00118885

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE h 0) to him on either Wednesday or Thursday. ald possibly -- MR. a : That would be -- MR. a : That is correct. MR. ae: And when you gave it to him, was his was happy, as were his who made a thumbs up MR. MR. ing to, oO Ps know, read MR. QJ: 9 m-hmn. EFTA00118886

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. a: “On Friday, August 9th, 2019, | worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as the duty officer. Epstein told | he wanted to make a call to his mother, but had not yet been able to set up his pack and pin. a. he was ensuring his inmates have family socialization as part of his job, so he allows inmates having technical problems with their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone call. | told Epstein his watch was ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way he would be able to help him make a call was if he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier than normal. [RR checked and confirmed that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and ” MR. a : That is correct. MR. a: “At approximately 6:45 p.m., ft found Epstein waiting for him, to make that call.” Where was he waiting? MR. a : In attorney conference, with his lawyers. MR. a: Okay. And did you go in there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey, listen, he’s waiting for you? EFTA00118887

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : No. They notified me in attorney conference that he was ready because they knew I was leaving at 7:00. MR. a : Okay. “Epstein was handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs. | did not know which cell was Epstein’s, and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on G-tier, which JJ prefers for phone calls because inmates are not locked in their cells with the ability to pull the phone cord into their locked cell, and use it to commit self- harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the shower, where the guards are also physically present, with Epstein. [RJ used the first outlet on the left, which is the legal line. Epstein provided | with the phone number beginning with (347).” Now, before I go on, it Says you used the first outlet on the left, legal line. Why the legal line? MR. a : Because they have two lines in there. One is a legal line, and one is, where he uses his phone. So, he - let’s say if I plugged it in there, he can't use it because his pack and pin is not set up. Ona legal line, like we give right now, we give inmates EFTA00118888

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to put in that code, in order for them to make that call. So, there’s a certain call where the inmates don’t have. So, I would have to dial that - at that time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello, boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him. Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't -. You can just dial out on that phone. So, a legal line is set up for us to give inmates legal calls in SHU. MR. a : What is the difference between the legal line and the other line? MR. QJ: «the -. MR. a: Other than the fact that you need the pin. Is there a difference between both of them? MR. a : Yes. The difference is an inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and that’s social call. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. a : For him to make any social calls to his family, which is, they’re recorded. That one is recorded. The legal EFTA00118889

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this is Mr. i. I have your client here. Boom, boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here’s the phone, and we give him the phone. And then, we don’t stay within that vicinity to listen to their phone calls. And that’s the same phone that they have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them that call, we actually give it to them downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give it to them, we give them the phone right in front of us. MR. QJ: §=o.t states, about that, “Epstein told | he wanted to make a call to his mother.” MR. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a: But that was not a legal call, though. MR. GJ: No. MR. a: It was a personal call. MR. a : That is correct. MR. a: How come the legal line? MR. a : Because if he didn't have something set up, how would he make a phone EFTA00118890

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 call? And this inmate been with us for a while. And me, personally, if he was my inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why his wasn’t set up, I don't know. And I will give you a good example. R. Kelly’s up there, his is set up. Why his wasn’t set up, my job as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a phone call? He’s been asking for this phone call for a while. From his unit manager, from everybody, and I'm, like, why does this inmate don’t have his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm not his unit team. That’s not my responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty officer, and I know that I verified that he didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he’s just like any other inmate. It’s only right to make sure that he stays in contact with his family, because that’s part of the program statement of inmates visiting their families and keeping in contact with their family members. He didn't have a line to make it on. EFTA00118891

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it on a legal line. MR. a: Did you have a conference with anyone above you, to get permission for that, or was it just a decision made by you? MR. a: I made a decision because, as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I wouldn’t call the warden at home and say, hey, can I give him this legal call? Because that’s what the duty officer job is. The duty officer is there representing the warden while she’s not there. So, basically, I'm over the lieutenants, I'm over -. They would have to contact me. When incidents happen, they have to contact the duty officer. Then I contact the region, the duty officer. MR. a: Oh, I see. MR. a : So, I don’t contact the warden. I contact the regional duty officer. MR. a: So, as the duty officer, you report to the region? MR. a : That is correct. MR. a : Do you recall having a conversation, though, with the captain, and him EFTA00118892

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 w ~] ive) providing you the authority to do it? MR. a : No. Because with unit teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone call is not the captain’s responsibility. MR. a : No, no, no. We had information that you actually spoke with him in the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the call. MR. a : Is that true? Yeah. MR. a : I don’t - it’s been so long - I don’t recall. I could have. But at the same time, even if he would have said yes or no, I would have gave him the call. Because I MR. QM: okay. MR. a : -- because my, myself, just being unit team, inmates, it is our responsibility as a unit team, and our program statement, that we make sure they keep in contact with their family members, or whoever. Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have to. MR. a : We have inmates that are - EFTA00118893

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~l ive) and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact, inmates that indigent erndegen (Phonetic Sp. *00:20:19), that don’t have no money. MR. QJ: Yeah. MR. a : How will we give them a phone call? We give them the phone call the same way. Inmates who don’t have money, they’ re indigent endegen. So, if they need a phone call, we have to give them a phone call. We can't just not give them a phone call, but we would call the number, give them the phone call, let them speak to - and we give them a 15-minute phone call. MR. ae : Is that on the legal line, as well? MR. BMJ: ves. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : Because if they don’t have no money, MR. J: 9 Me-hon. MR. a : -- there’s no way to put money on it, but we don’t give them money. They’re indigent endegern. And that will be on their -- MR. a : What is the word you’re EFTA00118894

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ending? MR. a : -- indigent erdeger. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : So, that will be on their -. We would look on their money form. And basically, any - what they - how they determine if you’re indigent erndegen, they go by how much money you received in the last six months. They go by six months. So, if an inmate only received, I think it’s, I want to say under $50 bucks, that inmate is indigent erdegen. It’s now in the unit team’s responsibility. Also, we not just give them phone calls. An indigent endegern inmate could get up to five legal stamps, every month, and if he wants to do his lawyer, he can get up to five every week. MR. QE: 9 Now -- MR. a : Indigent Erdegen inmates. MR. a : -- so, back to a. though. Does that - from what you said - does that mean, like, it wasn’t even him, and his kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility, to tell you that you were authorized? MR. a : I think me and | had a rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there. 29 EFTA00118895

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 w ~] An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, if I did ask him, it was me giving hima courtesy. I would have did that to any captain. MR. QM: okay. MR. a : If you was the captain. It’s just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give this guy a phone call. This, this, and that. | could have said to me, oh, I don’t think that’s a good idea. And I would have said, okay. Probably would have went to somebody else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the same time, once again, there’s nobody there after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would have made that decision and said, hey, I'm going to give him a phone call. MR. a : Okay. And you don’t remember, though, having that conversation -- MR. GJ: No. MR. a : -- with a. and being MR. QJ: and rt -- MR. a : -- (Indiscernible *00:22:13). EFTA00118896

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] ive) MR. a : -- and I could have. I could have had that conversation, because Like i) if aid, we talk on a regular basis. So, I could have. MR. a : Just bringing yourself back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet with him, the attorneys are in there. They give you the thumbs up, and you’re going back, and you go into an elevator. Do you remember | at all being in the elevator with you? MR. a : No. I remember | being around because - and the reason why I know that - is because Fd doesn't have a lieutenant to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9 working there that day. MR. a : I do remember that. So, if you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or oO rea because you have to have a GS-11 and above. MR. a : So, he was there that day. I do remember that. MR. a : Okay. But you just don’t remember that conversation? MR. a : That is correct. wo BR EFTA00118897

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. Perfect. MR. a: Now that the call was given on the legal line, was there any steps to make sure, because it’s supposed to be recorded, you know, an inmate call, a social call, is supposed to be recorded. MR. a : Right. MR. QJ: 9 He said he’s calling his mother. Was there any steps that you should have taken to ensure that that call was monitored somehow? MR. a: The only way we monitor it is, I made the phone call, hello, how you doing? I don’t say, hey, is this his mother, because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 minutes. When he’s done with the phone call, disconnect, and that’s it. So, we don’t know. Let’s say, right now, I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or whatever. Do we know there’s a three-way, or EFTA00118898

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anything? We don’t know. So, we sit down. We time it. 15 minutes. And we’re done. There’s no way to record that phone. There’s no way to pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, at that particular time. That was in place since I’ve been at MCC. Has anything changed? The only thing changed since I’ve been there is they took out all of the legal lines, and they put them in one particular area. They took them all out of SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, and they changed the code for that particular reason. MR. QJ: | what -? MR. a : And that wasn’t after Epstein. It took a while. MR. a : So, they do it in response because people were doing that, was what you mean? MR. a: The reason -. I'm one of the ones who actually brought it to the captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because ona EFTA00118899

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even after JJ (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was there, she - and anybody would say, okay, inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone restriction. But remember, the warden is the only one who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can you give him a phone call? He’s on a phone restriction. There’s only two ways you could give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you can't give it to him on a social, you give it to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs the cop out. She approves it. Well, any warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not trying to put. I'm just saying, that’s how it’s done. That’s how I’ve seen it done. Once we get it approved, we give the inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - give him two minutes - hey, you have two minutes left and that’s it. Take the phone from the inmate. We don’t know that person is 34 EFTA00118900

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. Ee : Okay. So, you are supposed to -- MR. a : -- because (Indiscernible MR. a : -- you’re supposed to sit there with them, though. Correct? MR. a : No. There’s nothing saying that. That’s just, like, sit there and do what? MR. a : Oh, so, everything that we’ve been told is that, if you give the person a call, on a legal line, if it’s not the attorney, you’re supposed to sit there and monitor the call, because it’s not being recorded. MR. a : Well, they -. And since I’ve been there, and that’s the reason why I asked them to take it out. Because how you putting somebody on a range, and saying that, hey, this person -. If that’s the case, then let’s do it the right way. The right way -- MR. ae : Mm-hmm. MR. QM: 9 -- is to belly chain the inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right way. Take him out - because that’s what we do EFTA00118901

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down there - you take him out. You pull the inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded area. You make the phone call. On speaker. Because that’s how we do it downstairs. And then, you give it to him on speaker. And then, you let him -. If he wants his 15-minute phone call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk to on speaker. That’s how Epstein received his first phone call. It’s a three-minute phone call on speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could say, this is the way to do it. That’s not the proper way. The proper way to make a phone call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate secluded, because these guys can hear, too. So, you don’t know what he’s saying. He could be crying for his death. And you got other inmates right there. In the next cell who could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this to me. That. So, the proper way is to bring the inmate out, put him in a belly chain, because then he has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put him on speaker. That’s the proper way. EFTA00118902

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE MR. a: I'm going to finish the paragraph. MR. a : I know. I'm just -- though. Is it pin and pa It’s either way. MR. ae : It’s all, and it’s pin is a different number, and your pack is a going to enter your pack number. You enter your pack EFTA00118903

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 number, and then it’s going to say, enter your 2 pin. That’s, like, a four-digit pin ies) i 4 MR. ae: I'm going to read the rest of it. “Epstein provided | with the phone wi rt 6 number beginning with (347). lz dialed 7 the number, and a male picked up the phone. 8 | handed the phone to Epstein, and heard 9 hey, how you doing? How is 10 Fs then left because h 11 watch was over, and Epstein was being guarded 2 by SHU C.O.s [ER] IMJ ang tT. noel, and ive) from internal. ft described that he was able to 4 Epstein as very hap t oO Fs a : That is correct. 7 MR. a: Now, can you walk us through. co So, once he brought him up. Right? And you 9 put the legal line in -- 20 MR. QJ: 9 They brought him out. 21 MR. ae: -- you dialed -. 22 MR. a : I just walked up with the 23 internal. Internal. All inmates have to be 24 walked by an internal. So, a. myself 25 escort him up. We brought him up. He was EFTA00118904

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 w ~] already in chains already. So, I mean, in the cuffs. Bring him up. Go to the shower. Take him out the cuffs. Put him and secure him. Take the cuffs off. Once again, the legal line can't fit to where the inmate could get everything. He just has a handle. So, we dial the number. Hello? Give it to him. And once that’s at 7:00, I told the officers, hey, make sure he get his 15-minutes, and after that, he’s done. ; was there. They was, like, okay, no problem. And that was it. MR. a: So, you told Noel and i - MR. GJ: ses. MR. a: -- and | was also there, that, after 15 minutes, cut off the call? MR. a : That is correct. MR. a: Did you give them instructions on listening to the phone call at all? MR. GJ: No. MR. a: Where was - this is G-tier - where was G-tier compared to the officer SHU -- MR. QJ: Okay. EFTA00118905

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 MR. a: -- and the office re looking at the desk, where is it? K on i) i] a H Hh ies) i : Let’s say the desk is by me. w 3) : Okay? You go in, and the me, you have tier, this is the first tier. And this is the, with the door. So, 8 it’s, G-tier is over here. oO AJ Behind the desk? I could see -- ive) a) N Fs) U i) All right. : -- I could see G-tier. So, G-tier is here. I could s t oO a All right. Okay. 7 MR. a : Yeah. And you could see G- 7 co tier. wo a3 And when you walk up G-tier, 20 where is the shower? 22 walk in? 23 - That’s 24 All the other 25 to -. So, EFTA00118906

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] you can't see it. shower that’s, like, you could actually see. Like, if you sit down, you can actually see that G-tier shower. That’s the only shower. All the other showers are inside. You have a cage. Shower. So, you have a cage where the inmates inside the shower. This one, you can actually see the shower because it’s on the outside. That’s me — that G-tier high-profile inmates. un. : MR. a: that. vn. : the phone call to Noel? Where they area, or where they sitting -- MR. MR. : un. a: desk. MR. : MR. a: the only one because - excuse is made specifically for the 41 So, G-tier is the only Now, based on, when you gave him, where was | | and at the G -? At the shower No. -- at the desk? They were sitting at the The desk. And what about ft was with me. And EFTA00118907

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 then, I told a. I said, hey, just make sure he gets off. He’s internal now - so, he probably went back to doing his internal duties. Internal, any time they need an inmate, that’s his job to escort them back and forth. MR. QJ: 9aAnd you left for the day, after that? MR. a : That is correct. At 7:00. MR. a: Did you make any phone calls back, to check in on them, and to verify that Epstein was finishing his phone call? MR. J: No. MR. QJ: So, you just -. So, Noel said that you spoke to her and said, hey, make - hey, get that phone, his phone back after his phone call is done. MR. a : I remember speaking to her. And I do. So, I don’t know if I was, like, in the car, in -. But I did ask her. I said, hey, did you take the phone from the inmate? And she said, yes. MR. a : And that was that night, before you left? MR. a : That is correct. EFTA00118908

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. Ee : Okay. She said that -- 2 MR. a : So, it could have been -- MR. a : -- she said that -. 4 MR. a : -- I could have been in the ies) 5 institution, I could been outside of my car. 6 Or I could have been going on the train. But I 7 did contact her and say, yes. Did you make 8 sure you take him off the phone? Yes. 9 MR. a : Okay. She said you said, 10 hey, make sure you get that phone back from 11 him, because his time is up, and then, she 2 said, okay. And that’s when she went and took 3 it back Does that sound right? 4 MR. GJ: ses. 15 MR. a : Okay. You want to ask 16 more about that comment? Why -? Is that why 7 you had contacted her, though, to make sure 8 that she -? 9 MR. a : That is correct. Because I 20 don’t want him going over that 15 minutes. I 21 mean, 16, 17 minutes, but to stay on the phone, 22 no. 24 MR. a : So, yeah. I would -- EFTA00118909

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LIMITED co wo co OFFICIAL USE 44 MR. a : -- I would definitely want MR. a : Did you talk -- MR. a : (Indiscernible *00:31:4 MR. QJ: -- was there any other conversations you had with her -- MR. EJ: No. MR. a : -- with Noel? MR. a : Not that I recall. It could have, could have been. But all, the main thing MR. QJ: Okay. And you did th t MR. a : My - yeah - my phone. Either from the car or the train. I don’t what I caught that day. But from my personal MR. a : Okay. And do you remember at all, around what time that would MR. a : It could have been, if I left at 7:00, it had to be no later than 7:00, EFTA00118910

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Now, going back, I'm going to read a part here. “QJ dialed the number, and a male picked up the phone.” Being that, when Epstein asked to make a phone call, he said he was going to - he wanted to call his mother. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. a: Did you verify who the person was? Did you ask about his mother? Did you ask to speak to a specific person? Identify the person before you -- MR. a : I did not. MR. a : -- how come? MR. QJ: 9 just didn't. And there was no reason why I didn't. I just didn't. MR. a: Because he was just - we have to get clarification - because he asked for his mother, but it was a male that picked up, and it was, you know, contradictory to what he requested, to who the phone was being handed off to. That didn't. How come - I know you didn't ask - but is there a reason? Normally, do you verify if an inmate is talking to the person that they have requested to speak to? MR. a : I mean, do I verify? EFTA00118911

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 There’s not a lot of inmates that we do give phone calls. So, let’s say, if a dude said, hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick up. Okay. How you doing? Because he’s giving me that number, and I'm verifying that that number is on his - but which he don’t, you can't verify his numbers, because he don’t have an account. So, give him the phone, and that’s it. I don’t -. Me verifying it, was it, you know, was it something I should have done? Yes. Was it something I did? No. MR. a: Okay. And are inmates allowed to call just anyone, or is there a specific list of people that they are allowed to call? MR. a: Originally how it works is, if an inmate is asking for, of course, his mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he wants to speak to, usually, it’s not ever a friend. It’s usually immediate family members. Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts, whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone list. But once again, how can an inmate have a phone list when he has no account set up? MR. a: So, the pack and pin, if he EFTA00118912

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LIMITED co wo co OFFICIAL USE 47 set that up, would have had a phone list -- MR. a : That is -. MR. a : I’1ll circle back, after all on that topic. + I mean, I a =) .] wu mt o Yeah. No. just want to get more clarification. MR. a : When you said that you gave him the phone call, and then, did you inform Noel and i. with ; present, or did you say for one, or the other, or who did Mm-hmm. oO you say, make sure this phone call ends in 15 MR. a : All three of them was there. MR. a : All three. -- when I actually told =mber, FY brought him up EFTA00118913

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 4 co with me. MR. a : And I said, you guys, just make sure it’s 15 minutes and that’s it. 10-4. call. But I made it to the SHU. would have answered it, it either would have bee 45 1 | | or Noel. It wouldn't have been internal. MR. QJ: 411 right. didn't -. So, I thought the way that you answered it was that you told | make sure it ends in 15 minutes. But you would have told 5 Lae] he retty much everybody. Okay. Everybody was there when I ke sure he’s off in 15 5 i} i} 3 wu Everybody was there. Okay. ct oO Fs) oe tw o i) a ry oc a 1) = 7 o =] k 0 =] wu an MR. EFTA00118914

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE a : -- as I'm talking - he wouldn’t that 15 minutes. stay Right. Right? ight now, sure it’s and the desk is only over knows, hey, you guys, specifically, I told - they all knew, said, hey, make sure he’s off in 15 And that’s the reason why Because I know call back, I couldn’t get | all over can get into that’s where I was just wanted to verify. told Noel and ia. fe was present and more, like, That is correct. Okay. addressed to Noel and || -- MR. That is correct. worked in the internal, you wo make a EFTA00118915

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 w ~] ive) MR. a : That is correct. MR. a : Okay. And then, you just, and what caused you - if you told them that there - what caused you to follow up with them in the car? MR. a : And that was just me, where let’s say you have officers - it was only two. And I don’t know how many inmates we had at the time, but we had several. This is not midnight. So, me personally, they should have more officers in there. So, they could have got busy. MR. a : Sure. MR. a : It could have been a use of force. IT could have been anything. So, what if those inmates still got the phone? So, at least they could have went down there, pulled the - all they have to do is pull the jack out. There was nothing else they can do. MR. QM: Okay. MR. a : So, I just wanted to make sure that was done. MR. : | e-hon. MR. a : Because I didn't want him to stay on that phone. EFTA00118916

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. a : Now, would it -- 2 MR. a : Over 15 minutes. wo ray 3 MR a : -- would it typically be 4 - and I understand what you’re saying, it 5 sounds like MCC kind of wasn’t doing things 6 right - but per BOP, should have you, as the 7 unit manager, been the person that, if you 8 provided the telephone call, you should have 9 actually sat there and monitored it? 10 MR. a : Yes. And that’s what I went 11 over with you guys, the proper way to make a 2 phone call -- 3 MR. QJ: Right. 4 MR. a : -- if he wanted that phone 15 call, is the inmate come out. He wouldn’t be 16 in the shower. 7 MR. QJ: Right. The inmate come out. The Lee) 5 9 inmate go to, let’s say, an area, and you put 20 it on speaker. 21 So, that’s the proper 22 way 23 That is the proper way. 24 -- wasn’t it -. And 25 just, we have to cover this. EFTA00118917

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. uw ie) 2 Why wasn’t it that proper 2 4 MR. Shortness of staff. Due to 5 And why didn’t he - 6 ask the question - why didn't he - 7 what was so special? - why didn't he have a 8 pack and pin set up? Every inmate in the BOP 9 has always had a pen and a pack set up. 10 MR. QJ: okay. 11 MR. a : So, my question, my 2 to myself is, why is he the only one? a : Sure. 4 MR. a : And he’s not endogen. MR. a : Now, going back to 16 a. According to a. you ive) a) w if] said he spoke 7 with you in the elevator, and that you said, 8 yeah, go ahead, give him his phone call. But 9 make sure it’s monitored and logged. Do you 20 remember that -? 21 MR. a : In the book. Yes. 22 MR. ae : So, when he said, make 23 sure it’s monitored and logged, wouldn’t that 24 have been, like, make sure you stay with him 25 while it’s going on? EFTA00118918

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : No. Monitor and log is just make sure we had a logbook that it was actually logged in a phone logbook. And at the time, they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there, they didn't have. We made, like, I recently made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that myself because I know what was - what we was doing in other prisons. They didn't have one here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And it wasn’t after Epstein. I just said, if we’re giving inmates legal calls, we need to have that documented, and so an inmate - let’s say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I never got this call. Same thing with social calls. Social calls have to be logged in the book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print the data off and say, okay, you made a 15 minute phone, but we should be logging it in because it should be also the person who’s giving that inmate that phone call. MR. QJ: «ss So, ~was that phone call logged, then? MR. (: No. EFTA00118919

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 2 logged, and it wasn’t monitored. Okay. As far 3 as who he spoke with, do you know who he spoke 4 with? Oo’ wi BO OH 2. i} 5 fe) rt No. Okay. All right. 7 Do you want to talk about the memo? 8 MR. a: Yeah. Going back, you said that he requested multiple times -- 10 MR. QJ: 9 vm-hmn. 11 MR. a: -- for his pack and pen to be 2 set up. Not to you, but to other people. Do Ww het fe) & know who he requested that to? 4 MR. a : He requested it to me, but 15 he told me numerous times that he actually was 16 unit team. The only unit team he had at the 7 time was Unit Manager aa. fF was the 8 counselor. That was | a. And who 9 else was it? I don’t think 7 had -. I 20 think she had JJ. There was one more 21 person. I'm trying to think who else she had 22 under her. a. Oh. And I'm want -. I 23 want to say | (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:46). I 24 don't know if he was under her. I know she had 25 two people under her. EFTA00118920

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Okay. MR. QJ: But: that was their responsibility to set that up. And let’s say - I’ll give you a good example - let’s use R. Kelly. All right? He’s in my unit now. Okay? So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and pin. That’s something they’re going to do. Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line. He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He set it up the same way. So, saying that is how long do we have Epstein, and it wasn’t set up? So, it should have been set up from the beginning. So, we wouldn’t have this problem where, okay, an inmate is entitled to call his family member or whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So, that’s besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm not going to sit there and sugar coat it and say, hey, I should have sat right there, but even sitting right there, what can I heard him say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever. And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have EFTA00118921

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pulled him out and put him in this area, and put it on speaker. But once again, we’re talking about 80 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you know, it should be four officers, instead of that. But it’s two officers. So, there was a lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going around. I'm not putting that on nobody. This is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not speaking about anybody else. So, once I realized a lot of stuff was going on, and that’s not just because of his death, it’s things that I know that should be happening. I put those things in place at MCC because it wasn’t happening. I did those. I'm the one who put a green book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do it. I just knew it was the right thing to do. I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the com shop, and told him, take the legal line out. And it wasn’t just because of Epstein. It was because a lot of inmates were manipulating staff to give them the legal line, to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate EFTA00118922

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or 2 another inmate? And it wasn’t monitored. So, 3 I saw that, and I'm the one who did that. 4 MR. a : Well, I'm glad you said 5 that, because that’s - from my understanding - 6 the reason why it’s supposed to be monitored ~] and verified who they’re talking about, is 8 because hits on other inmates -- 9 MR. a : That is correct. 10 MR. a : -- or being able to run 11 an organization from within the institution. 2 MR. a : That is correct. 3 MR. a : So, and that’s why, 4 unfortunately, this becomes a little bit more 15 of a serious matter. 16 MR. QJ: And © get it. 8 MR. a : I have - once again - I have 9 no excuse. I get it. And maybe I was one of 20 those who fell into the thing, what MCC was 21 doing, but I still know better. 22 MR. QJ: okay. 24 MR. a : And when you corrected 25 the problem, that was - it sounds like - after EFTA00118923

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 w ~] ive) Epstein. MR. a : Of course. MR. a : Okay. Do you know how long after? MR. QJ: 9 what’s that? What he, in October, or -- MR. a : August. MR. a : -- August? MR. a : Yeah. August. August 10t is when. MR. a : I'm going to say the beginning - me - the beginning of 2020. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : Because at MCC, it takes, it’s not something you, like, you go to people, and you say - and you know right from wrong - and you go, hey, you know, I know everything is a little salty now. People running around. I know it’s crazy. But you go to these people. Hey, communication. Because that’s who has a door. Hey, we need to take these legal lines out. Okay. I'm good with that. Let’s get with -. So, get with the associate warden, hey, associate warden. And I'm putting this in emails. I'm not just, you know, hey, we need EFTA00118924

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 uw \o to get rid of this stuff. MR. QM: Richt. MR. a : Because it’s bad for staff down there. Okay. Get with this person. Get with that person. Vice versa. It’s just a lot of back and forth. So, it took, you know, you’re trying to get this stuff done, and they’re acting like it’s the hardest thing to do. Communication staff is telling me, it could happen like that. I could just snap a wire, that legal line is gone. Come to find out, when it was finally approved, that’s all it took. Just like that. MR. QJ: 8nd then, as far as, you said, that it seems like it was kind of common practice at the time, that, like, people were just putting inmates on legal lines. Was that happening a lot, then, around that time? MR. QJ: «411 the time. MR. QJ: 411 the time. MR. a : All the time. MR. ae : So, was that -. Now, who was -. Were you also one of the ones that was constantly providing -? MR. a : No. The only call I gave an EFTA00118925

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 inmate was Epstein, during that time. If I 2 ever gave an inmate - once again - a call, WwW k o rt . if) say to his mother, I would have to go 4 through the warden. Like, if you on phone wi i oO n rt be aQ ct h- ie) 5 ~ I would not. I would just be, 6 like, h You know, they asking the 7) warden. She’s the warden. They would sign a 8 cop out. She would say, Mr. a. make sure 9 this inmate gets his phone call. She would 10 follow up, and say the next day, hey, Mr. 11 a. did you give this inmate the 2 call? Yes, ma'am, I did. 3 MR. a : And when you’re talking 4 about a female. Who is it that you are speaking of? a : Warden a. 7 MR. QM: Okay. a : The warden. Ee : Like, but at that time, 21 va. A: EE es 22 well, this is -. FY never told me to give t oO a Lee) 5 wo a3 at the time, 23 an inmate -- 25 MR. a : -- a phone. EFTA00118926

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ee : So, you’re talking after MR. a : That is correct. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a : Because inmates would ask her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again, inmates can ask for anything you want. If that’s just, like, if your visit has been taken for a year. They have the right to ask for a special visit. MR. : | Me-hon. MR. a: The special visit is approved by who? The warden. Typically, the warden just usually don’t. They have to be really an emergency, somebody is dying, or something. But if you’ve been sanctioned, and if you read the policy, the only person who really can do that is the regional DHO, but under, of course, the warden, because that’s her jail, or that’s his jail, or whoever the warden is. They can do it. But they would have to - you would have to put it in the memo form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day. So, special visits never happen, but -- EFTA00118927

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. a : -- the phone calls did. MR. a : So, in the phone calls, though, it sounds like they were happening, not only prior to Epstein, but also following Epstein’s discovery on August 9th. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. a : So, staff members were -. And that’s in the SHU, as well? MR. a : That’s the only way -. On the outside, we never did it on that. We don't have to do it on the outside. This was mainly inmates in SHU. These are all inmates in SHU. MR. a : Oh, so, you’re speaking specifically to the SHU, and the G-tier shower? MR. a : No. Remember. They had the legal line. I put him in the G-tier because the whole phone couldn’t reach. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : So, I did that as a security breach of this inmate can't do nothing to himself, or whoever. I knew who he was. But as far as on the tiers, they had legal lines on every tier. Between every cell. So, if I had went to -. I can go downstairs, plug this phone in, and give it to an inmate. EFTA00118928

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And that’s what they were doing? MR. a : Yup. MR. a : So, they were just plugging it in -- MR. a: Everybody was doing it. MR. es : -- okay. So, you chose to put him in the G-tier shower. Other staff members are just giving it to him on any legal line? And that’s for other inmates. MR. a : It was constant. And it was nothing -. I mean, so, I requested that because it was putting staff in a bind. My thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying, like, these are young staff. You know, some staff got, you know, once you get your year, you can go to SHU. They don’t know no better. Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it in the social line. Right? And let’s say you got a staff that’s down there, and the inmate go, hold that, my phone’s not working. It says social and legal. So, you know the difference. And then, he takes it out of social and plug it. So, it might not be typically that staff member. It EFTA00118929

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 could be another staff member taking it out and putting it there. So, that’s why I said, okay, let’s get rid of it. What they did was, they did a quick fix. They put tape around it. Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What’s putting tape around it? Anybody could take off the tape. MR. QM: Right. MR. a : And it was happening. So, tape is coming off. Then they tried to put puddy in it. That didn't work. So, eventually, they did exactly what I asked them to do. There was only one line you could plug in. And that was your phone call. That’s it. All legal lines was put in the back of the visit room, where you have to have a staff member present at that time. MR. a : In the SHU visiting room? MR. a : Yes. And that -- MR. a : Okay. MR. a : -- the only person that will be is that will be unit team. MR. a : Okay. And how did you know that the staff members were providing inmates with these calls? EFTA00118930

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Let’s say I'm doing my rounds. I'm doing my unit manager rounds. All right? I'm doing my unit manager rounds. I'm doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the difference between the cord, and you go, what’s this guy on right here? Oh, he’s on a social call. No, he’s not on a social call. He’s on the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, I would go over there, and of course, I catch problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I don’t have no minutes. You don’t have no minutes. You shouldn’t -. You’re on phone restriction. It’s a lot. Now, it becomes a problem where, guess what? The inmate acts out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many phones we’ve replaced in there? Listen. It was a lot. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : Like I said, me personally, I would never make an excuse for myself. You know? Regardless of the fact, the years that I have in, I should have did it the right way. There is no way for me, myself, to fall into MCC’s trap, which I did. And it caused me to be right here today. So, I would never make an EFTA00118931

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LIMITED ies) w co wo i=) ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 66 I asked, based on your he said that he MR. (NN: «Yeah. and on you had mentioned a. I don’t think | was a counselor at that time. 3 a) wu ket bp =] Q that’s what I said. It’s been so long. I don't know who. But I know she had other people under her. I know it was -. She did have a case manager, i. but she left. MR. QJ: «at that time. EFTA00118932

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mentioned unit manager rounds. What is that? Is that like a lieutenant round? MR. a : No. So, what we do is, unit team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that we sign in. MR. J: | Mn-hoon. MR. a : You go in. You sign in. Put the time you in. And then, whenever you come out. So, we would go there, and we would run a roster with all of our inmates. 11 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom. Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need? They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I want a phone call. Okay. You on phone restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next validation date? And a lot of those guys were legit. Oh, by validation. So, they can really make a phone call. So, I don't know why they wasn’t getting phone calls. But then, I found out a lot, they didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere I’ve been, it’s a SHU schedule. Monday, this EFTA00118933

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay, Mondays, we don’t use the phone. It’s just us going to use the phone. And that should have been set up that way. Once again, I set that up. I did. I didn't have to. But I did it because I thought it was just right for the inmates, and for the staff. This way, they’re not, okay, they’re giving this inmate a phone call today. Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next day. And this becomes where the inmates are actually running the phones the way they want to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should be giving this range on Monday, and that should be every Monday. If this dude is validated, and he can get a phone call, he should get a phone call. Leave it on that range, put it in the social line, he can only make - at that time - you can only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would cut off no matter what. So, you can go down there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you knew that the phone call was over. You knew it was over. It was done. Take it, give it to EFTA00118934

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the next person. ve. I: | on-bme. MR. a : So, it was a lot that MCC had backwards. They just came up with the phones where you wheel the real phones, the way it’s supposed to be. The actual phone that they have on the phone, but they have it ona stand. You wheel it over there. You open the slot. You leave the slot open. The inmate down, and the only thing he can have is that. We had the old phones where you’re giving an inmate the whole phone, put the wire in the thing, and locks the slot. Now, the inmate has a phone. MR. a : So, with the unit team round, do you go around to each one of the inmates -- MR. a : Each cell. And I look for my inmates. And let’s say -- MR. a : -- oh, so, you only have certain inmates that you’re going to? MR. a : -- right. Let’s say I had 12 - no, but I'm doing rounds in an entire tier, because what if another inmate from | says, hey, I need a BP-8. I'm still writing EFTA00118935

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that down. And I will email || later and say - because we do the same thing here - we email every unit team, hey, this inmate had an issue, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would address it whenever they do their SHU rounds. So, our job is to go to every cell. Not just our inmates. But I ran a roster so I can know who my inmates is, but our job as a unit team go to every cell. MR. a : Not just our inmates. MR. a : -- two questions on that. Is a lieutenant round supposed to be done the same way, where they’re going to every cell? MR. a : A lieutenant round on each shift is the same way, where they’re supposed to go to every cell. Look in the window. And we -. And now, this, when we was doing, take your streams now, do this, if an inmate is not moving -- MR. a : Okay. MR. a : -- hit the light. Make sure inmates living and breathing. Yes. That’s a lieutenants’ round. MR. a: So, a lieutenant round EFTA00118936

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 does actually consist of going to every cell -- MR. QJ: Every cell. MR. a : -- not just checking in with the -- MR. a : -- staff members to see if they’re doing it. MR. a : That’s the last thing. That’s the last thing they do. Our job, even when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing unit. In the housing unit, you don’t have to go every cell in the housing unit because it’s not the SHU. They’re out. But you should go to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and you check, and you’re making sure. How you know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check and you looking at, you looking into the cell. How you know an inmate don’t have his window covered (Indiscernible *00:53:49)? Why you got your window covered? Open the door. So, yes. But in SHU, it’s every cell. MR. a : Okay. So, the lieutenant does a round. Has to check every cell. MR. a : The same thing as unit team. MR. a : All right. And then EFTA00118937

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 72 needed to do that, and morning watch. MR. QJ: «sts that unit team, as ening watch, unit team has to do rounds once a day. But remember, that’s the unit team. So, that means it wasn’t just me. of them has MR. a : Until they changed our -. anual changed our unit manager’s that says a unit team. Which means, now, I could do rounds for e rybody. I can do rounds EFTA00118938

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for a. I could do rounds for Ha. And I just have to send them the information here. So, I can do rounds for them. That’s in the new unit manager’s manual. MR. a : Now, aside from phone calls, what is a unit team member, or manager, checking in with the inmates on? What is the, like, what is the goal of checking in with the inmates? MR. a: We’re doing is reports. So, disciplinary action. So, we go there. An inmate has -. That’s why he’s in SHU. Disciplinary action. So, we do incident reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot of inmates from visiting can't set up their visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So, they would have to fill out a form, who they want. And then, we take that form and send it to trust fund, who they would then add those names to the visiting list. But they would have to already be in the inmates’ central file, if it’s on those. So, we do visiting, incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And listen to their problems. So, that’s why we EFTA00118939

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had to go to SHU every day. MR. QM: Now, did you have anything to do with, like, cellmates? MR. a: No. The only time we would get involved with cellmate is when it was just, like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So, if the psychologist says, this person needs a cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would witd be, like, this is a good fit for him. If this guy is a sex offender, and he’s not a sex offender predator, he’s just a sex offender. And he shouldn’t be with nobody who is a predator. He can be with another sex offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like, you know what? I know him. He used to be in my unit. So, I would give them, like, the psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell with this inmate. So, yes, we would have input, as far as that, because we know the inmates. The unit team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like, EFTA00118940

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) ~) wi the captain, for him to know an inmate, even though he’s doing his rounds, he don’t know the inmate more than unit team. So, yes, we would have input to psychology, and we did have input of who could go in with Epstein. We did have input. MR. QM: «0h, 0you did? Did you, yourself, have input? MR. a : No. That was | then. MR. :: 4. okay. MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. a : But you’re the one who brought him back that day. So, at that time, around 7:00 p.m., did you notice that his cellmate was not there? MR. a : I knew his cellmate was in court first thing in the morning. And everybody did. MR. Ee : Well, that’s the interesting thing, because he wasn’t in court. He was transferred. MR. a : Right. But originally, his cellmate would do the same thing, go to court, whatever. But remember, I don’t do the SENTRY transactions. EFTA00118941

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ~) on MR. a : So, we was told he went to MR. a : Who told everybody that? Because in the court list, it said WAB, and it was transferred to GO. MR. a : WAB is court. MR. QM: «was is with all Belongings. MR. QR: 9 m-hmn. MR. Ee : Court is court. MR. a : Right. But they -. Here, they call - and once again, this is my first high rise, first pre-trial -- MR. a : Yeah, yeah, yeah. MR. a : -- when they say an inmate is WAB, this is me. I’ve never been to a high- rise. So, I'm thinking, okay, he goes to court, and then he gets transferred. That’s me. And that’s my honest truth. Like, I don’t H know what WA -. don't know what that means. So, people would say, oh, his cellee is out in court. I mean, his cellee is out in court. Okay. That doesn't mean, because his cellee is out in court, he still needs a cellmate. EFTA00118942

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Wow. MR. a : And the thing -- MR. a : That’s - it could be still out at court, though, at 7:00. MR. a : Okay. Then here’s the thing. Okay. Let’s say your inmate is out in court. Okay? And typically, the right way. And I will say this about MCC. How they was doing this. Now, we didn't have that -. We have the holding cells now. We didn't have them before. They just put them there. I guess after this incident. But you would then - me personally - I would then put that inmate, and that inmate was in a good area, with officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that cell. But I would - me personally - I would probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute round, and that’s just me, until his cellmate get there. MR. a : So, who was it that actually put Epstein in his cell? MR. a : I wasn’t there. MR. a : Oh, so, when you came back from 7:00, at 7:00 p.m. with him -- EFTA00118943

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 78 MR. a : -- you weren’t there when even know that the cellmate wasn’t in there, then? You knew - you said - you knew he was wu rt 3) court. But, like, you said everybody knew. MR. QJ: «At 7:00, he didn't have a cellmate. I ew his cellmate was not there. I knew that. MR. a : So, and you knew he wasn’t coming back at that point? MR. a : I didn't know. MR. a : I didn't know. I honestly MR. PF : Okay. MR. a : I just know that he wasn’t there. And my thing is, I thought he was in court. And I know dudes can come back 8:00, 9:00 at night. So, that was my thing. But at the same time, I knew he still should have had wu Q oO be a 3 fu rt oO MR. QJ: Right. EFTA00118944

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : It don’t matter. Let’s say you don’t have a cellmate. Once again, if your cellmate is in court, it’s just up here, just like I'm not taking excuses for what I did. You know he’s suspect. Everybody knows that. Okay. So, if you’re going to put him there, there’s a couple of ways you can do it. I will put him there and say, okay, guess what? We’re doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the best thing going, going right now. That I’ve seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him in there. MR. QJ: Right. MR. a : Leave him in R&D. MR. Ee : So, was it a conversation at all when you came back with, okay, where is his cellmate? MR. a : I didn't. I don’t typically ask for a cellmate. I basically -. The only thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with a cellmate. MR. a : No, no, no. I mean, on that 7:00 p.m., on August 93th, 2019 -- EFTA00118945

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 80 Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- when you came back. with within the Fa] MR. Ke M w a fu that an inmate should have a cellmate, but like MR. a : I'm not sure. thought court. So, our unders with R&D, and other EFTA00118946

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 was you get the court list, the court production list, it will say, like, you know, a. court -- 4 MR. QJ: 9 Mm-hmn. -- that means he went to ies) w a a Qa ie) c K rt and he’s coming back. 7 MR. a : Mm-hmm. If it says , was, that means you know he’s leaving the co Fs) wo i=) institution. He’s not coming back. 11 MR. a : Well, who get that court ni 2 list? 3 MR a : The SHU staff members. 4 The lieutenants. Sorry. I'm just -- WM: the SHU don’t get it. -- well, SHU gets it t wi a t oO a 7 because they have to produce those individuals. 8 So, they get it so that they know who to 9 produce. 20 MR. J: §9=So, which court list are you 21 talking about? The one that’s created by R&D, 22 or the list that R&D receives? 23 MR. a : So, R&D creates one, and 24 provides it to the housing units so that they 25 can produce their inmates. EFTA00118947

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) OFFICIAL USE 0] MR. a : Okay. But they put it on the computer. It’s not -. It’s something. would not print. MR. a : Now, internal has a printed copy, and tt MR. a : That is correct. MR. a : -- right, and provide it to the housing uni go -- rt MR. MR. morning. MR. Ee : So, if in this instance, | | was on there, listed as WAB -- MR. a : Mm-hmm. individuals that are WAB. wu o saying is EFTA00118948

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 that, what was your understanding of the WAB? 2 MR. a : Court. Because - and the 3 reason why - is because I didn't see the list. wi md a ™ } Q = rt So, we’re hearing, Oo you just mentioned just now, that he was WAB. ~] Ne’re hearing, oh, cellee is in court. So, 8 that’s all I remember, all day, because the 9 main thing was him coming back, his cellmate 10 coming back. 11 MR. Ee : And that was spoken ive) a) a : Yeah. 4 MR. ae : That he was in court? MR. QJ: 9 yeah. 16 MR. Ee : And coming back? 7 MR. a : Because had not -. Let’s 8 say I come in at 11:00 to 7:00, right, I'm the w 9 duty officer. 20 MR. SJ: 9 Me-hoon. 21 MR. a : And let’s say I know he’s 22 down there talking to his attorney, and I knew 23 I had actual - and regardless of the fact, now, 24 this, I won't do - if I know an inmate needs a 25 cellmate, and his cellmate didn't go to court, EFTA00118949

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I, as the duty officer, would ensure that he move with somebody. I promise you that. That’s just -. I do it right now. I do it now. When I have an inmate right now, in our suicide watch (Indiscernible *01:03:01). | (Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee. If he don’t find a cellee, and then I'm interviewing that cellee, I need to find out what kind of cellmate he’s putting in there with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy -. But I’ve done it. And that’s something I will never go against, where if I know an inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to make sure he has a cellmate. MR. ee: So, on this note, whereas Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was, early in the morning, you know, leaves the institution, listed on the court production list as WAB. In your unit manager experience, who was responsible for saying, he’s WAB, he’s not going to court, he’s WAB, he’s transferring from here, and there is emails from the U.S. B4 EFTA00118950

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Marshal Service that clearly show, the day before, that he is transferring to GO. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. a : Whose ultimately responsibility was that, at that point? MR. a: R&D, and this is, R&D is responsible sepsensibel-for saying, okay, he’s WAB, he’s transferring. Once again, I never knew what WAB is. I don’t. This is my - like I said - this is my first high rise. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : So, he goes out or whatever. It’s R&D’s responsibility to say, hey, this guy is WAB. He’s not coming back. He getting transferred or whatever. Also, too, if that was my inmate. So, I'm not sure even || received something saying that he don’t have a cellmate. So, at that time, if || did receive something, because they would have sent it to me if he was my inmate. || been there forever. She knows. She knows. She’s been the unit manager. She’s been the case manager there. So, she would know, okay, you don’t got no cellmate. She could have got with a psychologist and said, hey, you know, Epstein’s EFTA00118951

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ao oO 1 cellmate left at 9:00 in the morning, or 8:00 ies) a So, would it be -- 4 MR. a : He needs a cellmate. MR. a : -- so, would it have been | actual responsibility, it seems like? 7 MR. a : It would have been two esponsibilities. R&D first, and then, if they w Oo @ K Ks] n o t=] rt } ine ct 2) he o i) ct oO n wu ke tT 2) 10 psychologist, hey, his cellmate left. He needs 11 a cellee Then once we tell psy gy, it is 2 then psychology’s responsibility to go to the 3 captain and say, hey, this guy needs a 4 cellmate. 15 MR. QJ: okay. So, it wasn’t, 16 like, the SHU staff members, or the operations lieutenant, it was actually the unit manager 8 who was responsible for that individual? 9 MR. a : It goes from R&D, who they - 20 . kLet’s say they send the list, and the 21 lieutenant gets it, too. 22 MR. ae : Do you know who -. 23 24 25 EFTA00118952

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) OFFICIAL USE he wasn’t mine. I know who 9 is, but he wasn’t mine. MR. a : And where is | now, do you know? i ke Oo c Yeah, right 5 ” 1 ” | = ion 1) 2] o + 7 n 3) & b Es ie) B 3 , ! | a] I \ ke D wu 2 ® A po the one next to the Third MR. MR. P K 0) fu a MR. works from home. | | oO c rt ifs) 2 a) What is her position now? i I think st 5 ~ EFTA00118953

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 she took a bus down from -- MR. a : And what are you, a 12? MR. a : -- yeah. We were both 12s. and she saw an opportunity had opened because she just lost her father. Her mother is sick. So, she basically -. So, she works -. She works out of home. I think she has to report there once a week, or once a month. But yeah, she works out of home. MR. QJ: Right. MR. a : But she still works for the BOP. MR. a : So, your unit team experience tells you that the actual way it should have worked, and the ideal circumstance, was R&D should have told her, she should have told the captain. MR. a : That is correct. Or, and it could have been, let’s say, everybody gets this list. I know I will get it. So, i. captain. So, let’s say the captain, or the lieutenant’s office get it. The lieutenant’s office, they get it because they know all the transfers. They know who is leaving. They could have known, hey, this guy is leaving. EFTA00118954

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 They could have notified psychology. Anyone of us has supervisors, who had that list, should have notified psychology in the morning. It could have been -. MR. a : Is there one group that should have, though, versus could have? Because if R&D is giving that list to everybody, is there one, is there one group, either unit team, or ops lieutenant -- MR. a: The person I'm going to put, that if they had a SHU lieutenant, it’s going to be the SHU lieutenant. MR. QJ: Right. MR. QJ: | Because the SHU lieutenant, like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this list, you know, this guy leaving. He don’t got no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I already know, Epstein is in court, while he’s downstairs, right? He probably be down there until about, let’s say 7:00, 8:00. Before he come up here, he have a cellmate. That’s automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn’t EFTA00118955

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there, it’s the operations lieutenant. Who would then notify the captain and psychology, hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which then, if they would have did it early enough, when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have went back in that cell, and he would have had a cellmate. MR. QJ: Absolutely. So, the actual way it should have worked is, the SHU lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the captain. MR. a : That is correct. It’s never our responsibility. Because that inmate, he belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain. SHU is the captain. That’s the captain’s baby. If you got a SHU lieutenant, it’s the SHU lieutenants. That’s mines. So, I know all my inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the cellmate left. Okay. Let’s get the cellmate for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, i left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay. Let’s make sure we don’t pick somebody like Tartaglione, or somebody else who’s going to, you know what I mean? Get accused of doing EFTA00118956

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 We’1ll pick a cellmate. 2 So, two things off that. 3 One, so, when you previously said that it 4 should ha w captain, are you kind of re-thinking that? 6 MR. a : R&D, at least to the lieutenant. Every hing going to be SHU 8 lieutenant or captain. oO a And in this case, the SHU i=) } = oO co ct oO =) ou o _ = n 3 e) a + 11 MR. a : Operations. MR. a : So, you’re saying R&D should have told operations? 4 MR. a : I'm quite sure they did. 5 Remember, everything goes to operations because N Fs ive) oO | I 7 MR. ae : Well, yeah, yeah, they Les] iQ 1s) rt ct a o be p. n rt a9) Oo a] k be | | No No Ww Nm OD rm yD } Q a rt So, where does the unit - 24 ? So, are you thinking the unit team actually fall into that notification -- EFTA00118957

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : We don’t. MR. Ee : -- versus not? MR. a : We don’t. But let’s say, if - and the reason why I say we don’t, but we still do - let’s say, if I knew it was my inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and then, I'm going to give you an example. All these guys that’s come in over here, right? I get the list in the morning. They come here every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they’re going into just quarantine unityex. So, the process here, I had to find out the process when I got here. I get the list. MMMM (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is over there, she does all the bed assignments. So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed assignments, because technically, they are my inmates, I do their assignments. So, long story short, she says to us, she does it because she only have 20 inmates. She’s been doing since she’s been here. Okay. So, that’s something less I have to do. But I still have to make sure those inmates, because they come into my unit, all the cells are working. All the lights are working in the cell. EFTA00118958

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 w ~] Everything. So, that’s my responsibility. That is my responsibility. That is my unit. It’s still can fall on the unit team, but is it our responsibility? I would say no, because SHU belongs to the SHU lieutenant. Really, the captain, who belongs to the SHU lieutenant, then operations. MR. QJ: Ss so -- MR. a : That’s how it really goes. MR. a : -- do you think, though, that | has any responsibility for notifying that | | left, and knowing that || was Epstein’s -? MR. a : I wouldn’t put it on - and I'm not just saying this because even if it was me —- that’s not my responsibility. Like, it’s not onto me, because that inmate is in SHU. If he’s in my unit, yes. Like, we do have inmates in their units who can't be by themselves, too. MR. QR: okay. MR. a : That’s my responsibility. He’s in SHU. That’s the captain’s responsibility. MR. a: Okay. And then, the EFTA00118959

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 second follow up to that, was you mentioned Tartaglione, and the things that, you know, were being talked about. What is your understanding of what happened with Epstein and Tartaglione? MR. a: The only thing I remember is - and this is when I first met Tartaglione. I didn't know anything about him. I didn't know his background. Anything. It was just alleged, and this is something that I heard, that he choked Epstein out. That’s the only thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit, like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever. He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was trying to get to me, caught up, I don’t get into that. I was, like, whatever. He was just, like, no, I never did that. And you think I would do something like that? And I'm working on my case? All right. No problem. Never, ever talked about them again. MR. a : That was it. MR. a: -- did you ever kind of EFTA00118960

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 w ~] wo 10 11 reconcile that, that you heard, maybe, Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus, did you also hear that Epstein tried to commit suicide? MR. a : The only thing I heard, and like I said, was the Tartaglione thing, because I knew it was an investigation. And I knew -. Because my question was, well, why did this guy move out the cell? That’s when I heard it through staff. Oh, yeah. He moved out the cell because they were saying Tartaglione assaulted him. And then, I knew because they had FBI agents called in, and interviewed Tartaglione. So, I knew that. MR. QJ: okay. MR. a : Like, that he was interviewed. MR. a : Right. And did you know, though -- MR. QJ: That he tried to -- MR. a : -- that Epstein was -- MR. a : -- commit suicide? MR. a : -- placed on suicide watch? MR. QJ: «Yes. EFTA00118961

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 96 MR. Ee : So, was it your understanding that h att d to commit i) oO 0D mpte suicide, or that his cellmate tried to harm MR. a : And wh was also a | MR. a : Who you talking about? MR. ae : Tartaglio MR. a : That is correct. nothing EFTA00118962

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re) ~ LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 else. 2 MR. a: I just wanted to clarify. 3 MR. QJ: «Yeah. 4 MR. ae: You mentioned that - going 5 back to this phone call - you mentioned the 6 captain said to monitor and log the calls. But 7 there was no books. 8 MR. QJ: 9 Mn-hmn. 9 MR. a : There was no book to keep the 10 log. 11 MR. QR: 9 m-hon. 2 MR. ae: What exactly did the captain 3 mean when he said monitor and log, when there 4 was no book to write the log in? What do you 15 think he meant by that? 16 MR. a : Log it in the book, that when there is no book. 8 MR. a : So, was there supposed to 22 MR. a : And once again, I made that 23 book. I'm the one -. There wasn’t no books. 24 I made all those books that’s there today. I 25 made those books. EFTA00118963

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE oo MR. a: After the Epstein incident? MR. QJ: yes. MR. a: And at that point, did the captain know that there was no books? MR. a : He’s the captain. So, I'm MR. a : But do you remember him saying monitor and log it? MR. a : I kind of remember it. Like, as you guys saying it - remember, it happened so long - but yes, what I know was, I mean, I didn't know there was no book at the time until I went up to SHU and didn't see no book. Because it would have been logged. MR. a: And you had to practice that, if you gave a legal call, you would actually log it on? MR. a : And that’s the reason why I actually made the -. I actually made the book up. And then, today, there is a book in there for legal calls and social call MR. QJ: 9 Mm-hon. MR. a : If you go up there now. MR. a : That’s not shutting off. 7] Today. EFTA00118964

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w wo 1 Sorry about that. WwW 5 - 2 w ° 4 MR. ae: I was going to move on. ihnere wa w ts) wu 4 is] ct a i) HK 1 i} oO a Oh, please. 7 MR. a : -- so, then, I'm going to - 8 well passed it, too, a portion. 9 MR. SJ: | Me-hmn. 10 MR. QJ: 9 “after OCME (Phonetic Sp. 11 *01:14:44),” and I think that stands for the 2 Office of Chief Medical Examiner, “Departed 3 with Epstein’s body, | returned to MCC 4 and wrote a memo containing a timeline of 15 events, and a recap of the previous nights’ 16 phone call.” Now, I ve a copy of the memo 7 here. 8 MR : Mm-hmm. its 5 Ae} rt b 0) fu a ct rt S 0) bh 3) rt io oO a ie) ue, MK } 20 had. 21 MR : Mm-hmm. 22 MR I'm going to read this. The 23 memorandum for file, Metropolitan Correctional 24 Center, August 10th, 2019. From N. a. 25 That’s you? EFTA00118965

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. QJ: ss unit manager. Subject: Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054. “This memorandum is in regards of inmate Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein, concerning him making a call to his family. I told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to shorten his attorney visitation to make his social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and escorted the phone for him to make the social call. I placed the phone in the first jack on the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained to me that he didn't have his phone set up to use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate Epstein who he was calling. He stated his mother. I remember dialing the number starting with (347), but the number was not notated.” It says “notated.” I'm guessing it says not. You meant not notated? MR. a: And it actually was, but EFTA00118966

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 when I wrote the number down, you know how you write it down on a piece of paper and put it in your pocket, well, I couldn’t find it. So, there was no number. But I remember, vaguely, what the number started with, because I actually wrote it down, and I was going to - that next day - ask the captain why we don’t have a logbook, and here’s the numbers that he actually called her. So. MR. a: “Inmate Epstein began talking on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate Epstein’s call after 15 minutes. They complied.” Is that the memo you wrote? MR. QJ: 9 that is the memo I wrote. MR. a: Okay. Just, anything we show you, which would be, in this case, the memo, just initial it, and put today’s date on it. Today is September 21st. Here’s a pen. MR. a : Mm-hmm. The time? MR. a: You don’t need the time. Just the date and the initial. That’s fine. Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So bear with me. yo provided this to AW i. who is also new to the MCC. Captain | | WN. (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed EFTA00118967

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i. but ft responded that he couldn’t talk about the situation. The only colleague whose phone number has is AW fC because he had to use his personal phone to email her his timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein’s body, prior to its transport by OCME.” Now, you said you - this states that you used your personal phone to email pictures of Epstein’s body. Why did you use your personal phone to take Epstein’s -? MR. a : For one, R&D is supposed to come out there. R&D is supposed to come out there and fingerprint them. They came out there. They fingerprinted and that was it. Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they want to know when we’re leaving, because PY sent me out there. So, I had to stay with the body until the actual coroner came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. This is his body. Where I had proof that the inmate was deceased, and he wasn’t walking off somewhere else. Because all the speculation now and in EFTA00118968

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 the news that he’s not dead. So, I did that. Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to | ia from my phone. This is, boom, boom, boom. I left the hospital at this time, arrived back at the institution at this time. This is when they took his body and placed it in here. This is a lot. This is where they secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to leave. MR. a: Were you instructed by fF to take pictures? MR. a : I'm trying to think. It’s been so long. I could have. But I know I had a reason why I took them. MR. a: And it was practice for somebody to take pictures like that? MR. a : I would have did it for - and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is not my first time sitting on an inmate and the coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we have a camera from the institution. MR. a: Was there a -- MR. a : You see what I'm saying? MR. a: -- was there a camera this time? Was there a camera this time? EFTA00118969

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : No. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : But it - once again - they brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave it with us (Indiscernible *01:19:31). I was coming back to the institution. Because they have a - each R&D has a briefcase, and in that brief case is a camera, everything that you’re supposed to fingerprint an inmate on, and all that stuff. And they have it for a reason, for inmates that die. So, they could have left that and said, hey, i. when you guys leave, you got to bring it back anyway, I'm coming back to the institution. I'm going to leave this briefcase with you. I would have, then, took the pictures on that. But they didn't. MR. a: So, they left with the camera? MR. a : They left with everything. MR. a: And the phone number that you texted to AW a. was that her personal or -? MR. a : That (804), if I'm correct, EFTA00118970

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP 2 cell number. I don’t know if it was (804). 3 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was 4 two numbers. But I knew I only hada | | at number, and I think, if it was (804), 6 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone. 7 MR. a : Okay. And I'm going to keep 8 reading. 9 MR. a : So, you texted her, not 10 emailed her. Correct? 11 MR. BMJ: «No. «But I did text her. 2 But the pictures went to her phone. 3 MR. a : Her phone. So, texted 4 her -- 15 MR. QJ: 9 yeah. 16 MR. Ee : -- not email, because 7 doesn’t it say email in there? 8 MR. a : He said he emailed her his 9 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein’s 20 body, prior to i transport by OCME. 21 MR. QJ: Right. 22 MR. a: So, did you email it to her, 23 or -? 24 MR. a : It was email. Yeah. It was 25 text. EFTA00118971

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE MR. and emailed her MR. MR. MR. had thos MR. MR. o ward pu in the in k o ct oO jon food those 0 is) cr = © 3 I | That is correct. -- the timeline of events? ' | deleted them from his phone. text, or email with -"” Did No. Did you tell anyone that you EFTA00118972

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 107 MR. a : I mean, I'm not -. Listen. MR. a : No, no. We’re just going MR. a : I want to get them -- MR. a : -- if you have them, can you send them to us? MR. a : -- no. No. I am not -. Listen. No. I deleted them that day. MR. a: That’s all I had in terms of questions Do you have anything? MR. a : Yeah. So, speaking of, like, pictures of the -. That was the hospital. Correct? MR. QJ: 9 Mm-hon. MR. ae : Do you know if anyone was there filming at the hospital? MR. a : Remember, there were so many people. I can't recall becau if] e my biggest thing was - with those officers - was to guard that body. Now, do I believe that people was there? There was people there. MR. a : No, I mean, like, was that, like, you know how, like, if there i wo a, EFTA00118973

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 you’ve got to use against your institut *01:21:51) film, w 4 MR. a : No, no, no. -- (Indis o ra wi c a ) So, no one was -- e) 5 rt J @ w Oo as] O a a: 12 MR. QM: -- filming fro ae: a t n i] H 0 K ii) rm ple from the +t 6 outside, though. I know that for a fact. From where? From the outside. 19 MR. a: Outside. Okay. F co rs ie) EFTA00118974

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hey, a. you need to get here ASAP. She said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. I was, like, okay. When I got there, he was already at the hospital. He was deceased then. So, she told me to report to the hospital, and that’s when I reported, and I noticed his deceased body. MR. QJ: | Do ~you know if, is there any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the mcc, or at the BOP facility? MR. a: That. There’s not a policy. They technically says it, but this, this rule was - I came in at ’94. That was an old rule. When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. The policy states it’s not us. Our medical people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, let’s say if an inmate, (Indiscernible *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a licensed, practiced. They can announce that person dead - and I’ve seen it all the time - at the jail. It’s just common for them to say, oh, he didn't die here. They always say that. EFTA00118975

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. QJ: Bot -. 2 MR. a : -- do you believe, from 3 what you know now, two years later, that he was 4 deceased while he was here, at the MCC? 5 MR. QJ: 91 believe it. 6 wR. I: okay. 7 MR. a : I definitely believe it. 8 MR. a : So, he wasn’t still alive 9 when he left? 10 MR. GJ: No. 11 MR. QJ: Okay. 2 MR. a : And that’s just, when I got 3 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no 4 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my 15 27 years, this is not my first time around a 16 dead inmate. So, I’ve seen inmates fall out, 7 and die. So, there’s no way. And when I got 8 to the hospital, because they was transporting 9 him, I met them at the hospital. So -. 20 MR. QJ: So, did you see them take 21 him out of the ambulance? 22 MR. a : When I met them at the 23 hospital, he was -. When I got to the 24 hospital, you know how you - he was already out 25 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe, EFTA00118976

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 secured area in the hospital room. But he was already deceased. MR. a : Do you know if, at that time, what he was wearing? MR. a : I can't recall. I can just -. Whatever was on the video over the news, that’s what he was wearing. Because I mean, that is on that there, with the thing in his mouth. That’s what he was wearing. MR. a : Okay. And then, as far as, like, you know, all of the speculation that’s out there, do you have any information that would suggest that Epstein did not take his own life? MR. a : I don’t because I wasn’t there. You know, and, you know, what I speculate is totally different. I mean, it is what it is. MR. Ee : Well, what is your speculation? MR. a : I just believe that -. I don't know how they went in the room. So, I wasn’t there, of how they went in the room. You know, because, you know, when the doctor say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took EFTA00118977

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and the only way you can get -. I don’t care if that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you’re not doing it by yourself. So, I don’t know how they entered the room. But policy states, when you go in the room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. Period. And you can't just pop that door. Because how do you know that inmate is not still living where he is trying to kill you, and then escape? Or you definitely need help. That’s why you have to wait for a lieutenant, because that lieutenant has to give you instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift that person, where if you go - to me - there is no way, if it was two or three people, and we picked that inmate up, they wouldn’t say on the news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22). I just think, me personally, and hadn’t heard anything, but I just think one person was trying to do it by itself, and this, that’s no the proper way. And that’s just my opinion. MR. EM: Right. MR. a: Because in all the suicides, and I’ve seen - I was at, remember, I was at EFTA00118978

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I’ve seen numerous, and I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at least three or four people. Midnight, I understand, at night, you only have, but it don’t matter. These inmates are locked down. So, they can -. You can -. If I have a hanging, they’re already told. I'm already telling people, you know to vacate that post. Yes. Anything can happen up there, but I would rather have three or four people with me, in the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because I don't know what’s going on. You know, we heard all the stuff that went on witwken— (Indiscernible *01:27:09) peppy, so definitely, I don’t want something happening at midnight, when you could just vacate your post, come up there, and respond. MR. QJ: So, is kind of what you’re saying, that, like, by having one officer enter the cell, to respond -- MR. a : Should have never happened. MR. Ee : -- to Epstein, that could actually cause more harm -- MR. a : Of course. EFTA00118979

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- are you talking about physically, though, too, not only the ruse seese (Phonetic Sp. *01:27:27) of, you know, this person could overpower you, and now have you as a hostage, but you could become - that person who was attempting to hang themself, or hanging themself -- MR. a : Would it --- -- MR. a : -- could it become more physical -- MR. a : That is correct. MR. a : -- during the attempt. MR. a : Because what if - my thing is this - what if he was almost there, wasn’t deceased, and what if you’re trying to lift him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and you -. Because if, you know, remember, when they did the autopsy, then I would say, there’s no way he’s going to break that where, unless, you know, they was trying to say, you know, we killed them, unless one person is trying to do it. Epstein wasn’t 140 pounds. He was 200 something. So, there is no way I could lift that dude. There’s no way. So, I would never go in by myself. So, that’s my speculation, EFTA00118980

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 where somebody tried to do it by themselves, cover it up, and that’s what I see. Maybe I'm wrong. But that’s my speculation. That’s always going to be my speculation. Because -- MR. QM: so -- MR. a: -- I’ve been doing this for too long. MR. a : -- so, you’re speculating that the individual who went in could have harmed him more than helped him, but do you have any reason to believe that anyone, including that staff member, are actually the one that harmed him in the first place? Like, do you know what I'm saying? MR. a : Honestly, with them two, it could have been anything. And that’s just me. It could have been. It could have been any. Listen. I’ve seen a lot in the BOP. It could have been anything. I don’t know. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : It could have been anything. MR. a : Did you ever hear anything about, like, letting one inmate’s cell door open, while also letting Epstein’s cell open -- EFTA00118981

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 ies) w co 2 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein? WwW Fs) H 3 i) a you hear it, not in hear it on the outside. I never 5 heard it on the BOP 16 know, speculating th Les] Fs) tw 1) Qa ry c it) 9 probably would have wrote 21 MR. ae: Can I ask a EFTA00118982

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Many times. MR. QJ: How -? Is it possible for, if you’re responding, you go in with a couple of C.0.s, is it possible to just break the cord off -? MR. a: No. We don’t do that. In all my lieutenants’ life, and I was a lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the fact, but mine, we’re taught this. There’s no ifs, ands, or buts. You’re taught to go in with enough people. One person, if it’s two inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if it’s day watch, and you should have at least ten people. That’s just like if you’re having a use of force. If there is one person, close to five. If you can't get five, you at least want to have four. I'm not going to have three people. I'm going to wait until they get there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, you’ve got to look at your safety, and it’s really - when you’re going to use of force, it’s five to one. Two inmates, it’s ten to one. So, you always kind of use that concept. EFTA00118983

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our job is one person lift the body, you have a cut down tool, which is here. I have one. And you cut the inmate down. That’s a cut down tool. MR. a : That’s what they refer to as a cutter? MR. a : That’s considered a cut down tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down tool. You get them from Galls(Indiscernible *01:30:55). MR. a : But if they say, oh, he used a cutter to cut him down, that’s what they’re talking about. Correct? MR. QM: They had -. They didn't have something like this. I guess the new warden wanted to order some. They cut down tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a small little cut down tool where, let’s say you’re cutting down something, to me, if you don’t hold that inmate upright, you’re doing more damage, because you’re trying to cut it down. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : So, you’re doing like this, and what are you doing? You’re shaking EFTA00118984

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whatever is on his neck, if it’s tight, you’re shaking it down. These right here are actual cut down tools, where you’re going to go like this one time, and it’s just going to cut it. So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he is. Let’s say you do have -. Every SHU has cut down tools. Because they do. But once again, who is responsible? That’s the captain. Checking equipment. Making sure your equipment is not dull. After two or three years, if you’re not using something, you’re always supposed to check that equipment. It’s normal. And then, psychology, they always do their mock mie drills. They do their mock-mie drills, I think, quarterly. You know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that time, I would check myself, but I don’t - me personally - I would check myself. You just -. You would -. I wouldn't want to go toa hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, because once again, how does that look to me? How does that look? Like, if they did have a camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right. MR. a : Speaking of cameras, do you have any information, or reason to believe, EFTA00118985

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in the SHU? MR. a : Hmm. Actually, when I was at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera was working. And that’s just me -. My -. Because they even had cameras in the cell. I mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras in the cell. MR. a : G-tier, and 10 South. MR. a: 10 South. MR. QM: | Right? MR. a : Hmm. I don't know if it was just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier. They had -. No. I don’t want to say that. They had -. Because when we went in some cells MR. ae : Okay, that was the end of the range, or each end of each range has a camera. MR. a : No. I'm not talking about that. You have -. No. I - listen - I’ve been in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all that. But they had some cameras in some cells, and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? No. But they had those. I'm telling you they EFTA00118986

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had them. Because I remember going in the cell, taking the inmate out. On what’s that? You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and show the camera. Because the inmate had, the inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was, like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm telling you. This is, like, no more than, like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue off the -. So, and that was an old camera. So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells. MR. a: So, you said six months ago, from today or six months from the Epstein incident? MR. a : No. From today, but those cameras been -. Those are old cameras. They’re not, like -. I can tell the new cameras are new cameras, I know how they look. All the new cameras they just put in, that’s an old camera. MR. a: Was it -- MR. BJ: anc t -. MR. a: -- in dry cell? MR. a : That was not in dry cell. I'm telling you. It’s probably there still EFTA00118987

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 now. It’s - I'm telling you - it’s an old camera. MR. a : So, but do you have any information that someone intentionally knocked the cameras offline? MR. a: Hmm. MR. es : Or just your speculation? MR. QM: 9 My thing is, I can tell you this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, it wasn’t the captain. But any time a camera was down, like, there would be - how you say it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, we would know. And then, it would be forced to make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP. So, if the cameras was down, especially certain cameras, they wouldn’t even let inmates out. They won't let them out. Because we can't see certain things. So, I don’t -. I was shocked to see that cameras wasn’t -. I was very shocked. Very. Because with those cameras, I think you could have saw more, and it could have either helped or hindered people. It didn't matter. I would rather for the cameras to work. I don’t care whether it’s EFTA00118988

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 123 there to get me or not. If the cameras was working, I think the investigation would have completed probably a long time ago. MR. a : Yeah. Do you was in charge of the cameras? know who MR. a: The captain. Because it falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech. Communication. MR. a : Facilities manager, but - MR. a : No. But it’s still going to be the captain because it’s both of them together, facilities manager and the captain, because if something is not working, captain should know first. MR. ae : But how would captain, or the facilities manager, out? Who would have told them? MR. a : Communications. should. Listen, if a camera is not the have the have found They working in there, communications. That is - at that time, to report that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number seven, number eight in SHU was not working. EFTA00118989

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 Number boom, boom, boom. We don’t know. But 2 that’s his job If a camera goes offline, it’s 3 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the 4 captain, then, could make that decision of what 5 they want to do. Of how they want to go about 6 things. That’s his job. That’s 7 communications. 8 MR. a : Remember those initials 9 that we read earlier today? They’re not 10 a. but whomever else would have been 11 checking -- 2 MR. a : I'm trying to think who -- a : -- out those, I think it 4 was the CMS or something like that. a : The only person who was in That I'm aware of. ive) a) on io f fo] ct g oO K oO ct a oO 5 = iu) o 7 MR. a: No, that’s who he would have 8 contacted as -- 9 MR. Ee : Yeah. 20 MR. BMJ: 9 -- as (indiscernible 21 *01:36:45) 22 MR. ae : But that was a BOP 23 person. 24 MR. a : No. It’s an office, I think. EFTA00118990

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LIMITED Ww wo Ww oO oo OFFICIAL USE MR. MR. EJ: = all the stuff all that. re just trying t MR. ce - Mainten person. MR. Where the 125 And he wasn’t -. Yeah. s there an That’s right by the -. ey -? o figure out what that is. That’s Camera c a thing. You EFTA00118991

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : -- you go right by the lieutenant’s office, and it’s right in the back of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) -- MR. a : So, he probably -- MR. a: -- you open that door -. MR. a : -- checked in the CMS, not checking with the, like -- MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a : -- another person. MR. a : Well, he said he checked with the team. Well, that’s -. It could be -. If he checked with the CMS, well, I only remember system, but that would be somebody in the region. But his office is there. Like, he could open that office, if something is down, he know why it’s down. Then he would report that to either somebody higher. Either regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what’s going on? Like, central office, or somebody. Just like the phones. If the phones are down, it’s the central office guy that usually fix the phone. So, it could have been the central office, or the regional office. So, that could have been the CMS he was talking about. EFTA00118992

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. as : Go ahead. Sorry. MR. a: Just last clarifying. Just, I know I asked you the question. Was it, do you think it would have been possible if Thomas walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, hanging? As one person, do you think he could have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off himself? MR. a : Ripped it. MR. a: Ripped it off. MR. a : Everybody was nervous at the time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, what’s the first -? What’s the first thing a kid do hat (Indiscernible *01:38:30)? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this dude because, I already know I messed up. I was either sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I could see all the activity that this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a round. That’s it. So, if I'm not doing something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to try to fix it. MR. QJ: 9 was it possible for him to pull it off without a cutter? EFTA00118993

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : If the cutter wasn’t working. That sheet? No. It’s hard as -. Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to take a sheet, and pull it, and you’re going to burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for about a month. So, it’s hard. Because my understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it’s a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if he had it knotted right, there’s no way you could take it down by your hand. MR. QJ: 9and if a cutter was not used, if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it off, you think that’s not possible? You’re saying that’s not possible? MR. a: Hmm. I saw what the media, how his room was set up. Actually, I’ve been up there. I saw it because they had the room carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot was still there, and you cut it, like this, there’s no way. There -. I don’t -. Listen, EFTA00118994

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible *01:40:05). I work out. There’s no way I'm going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. There’s no way. There’s no way. MR. a : Be similar to, like, saying that he ripped a rope in half -- MR. a : Yeah. MR. ae : -- right? MR. a : Once again, these are little ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed. They had it tied tight enough to where I couldn’t do it in the knot (Indiscernible *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole hand. So, I had to -. That’s why I wind up getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep scar. There is no way. There is -. And that, I saw the spread. There is no way you’re going yank a spread off *e -.—That—yeru could (Indiscernible *01:40:40). Unless it’s coming, unraveling from the actual knot. You know how you do your shoelace? MR. Ee : Yeah. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : That’s it. There’s no way EFTA00118995

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LIMITED ios) w co ioe) fos) OFFICIAL USE 130 you’re going to do it. There’s no -. Not even 7 OD i w oO hl o Q. jon o MR. Anything that we’re missing, that we should know about? (Indiscernible *01:41:14). MR. the time If there is think about in the future, if information that might help us in the investigation, ple EFTA00118996

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MR. a: -- and share that 2 information. ies) a But you sent it - let me 4 y, though, with the AW, fF | | you sent it to her, you sent those 6 s to her government phone. Correct? 7 MR. fF That is correct. 8 VR. a: 9 MR. a : And her - and like I said -- 1:38). 10 MR. (Indiscernible * 11 MR. : -- if it was (840), I think 12 it was a I didn't -- 13 MR 4) or (840)? 1 MR 15 MR re MR k that’s 17 Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come co its) 22 the agency here 23 24 25 EFTA00118997

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 Re. The time is 2:32 p.m. on 2 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the 3 interview. EFTA00118998

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 CERTIFICATE that the oO wo ioe) oO) co wo EFTA00118999