oo wo co DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-01 )614 oO DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INS CTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00115899

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED co wo co OFFICIAL APPEARANC USE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00115900

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 3 MR. Ee : The recorder is on. It June 15, 2021 and the time is 5:57 I’m a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 7 Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office and these are my credentials. This interview is with Federal Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer, Lieutenant - can you state your name? io ry Bb KN a) ct 5 ] =] i) as part of an official U.S. York. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior these are my credentials. MR. QB: 0 uh-huh. MR. ae: This interview will be EFTA00115901

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) ive) co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 4 recorded by me, Special Agent | a. y themselves for Ph Could everyone please identi ct ct ? he record and spell your last name, to st Again, I am DOJ Special Agent | a. i i r n MR. a: As I stated before, this is hh an official DOJ investigation into the death o inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing surrounding that and you’re being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to voluntary interview with wu the DOJ OIG? K ) n MR. a : As part of our procedure, I’m 3226 OIG form 322 a going to provide you with ) I’m going to read the form out loud to you and give you a chance to review it also. “United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances ed to Provide Information on to Employee Reques a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to EFTA00115902

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceeding or both.” Now the waiver for you. “I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” Do you understand that? MR. QE: 9 Uh-huh. MR. a: Do you wish to proceed with the interview? MR. QR: 9 Yeah. MR. aaa: Please review the document and once you review the document, please sign EFTA00115903

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) on where it says, “Employee signature.” MR. a : Do you need a pen? MR. aa: I have. Thank you. MR. ae : There’s ais line that says, “Employee signature,” -- MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- and sign your name there and below there can you please print your name? MR. a : Thank you MR. QR: uh-huh. MR. a: I’m signing the signature of ir. “ the Office of Inspector General’s Special U Agent. MR. Ee : Thank you for signing the document, both of you, and ma for dating it 6/15/21 at 6:02 p.m. I am signing my name and signature of witness and printing my name, name of witness. MR. a : Before we start the interview, I'd like to place you under oath, Mr. i. Can you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? mR. QR: ves. MR. a: Thank you. EFTA00115904

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. QR: I do. MR. a: Please let me know if y not understand any questions I ask, I’1l it and I’1l try to rephrase it for you. What is your current home address? ve. i: a, 0: New York, 1172 MR. a: Your date of birth? MR. a: And what is your social security number? MR. a : He doesn’t need to provide that if he doesn’t want to. Woul io mind for the record, can you show us your credentials again and then we can use tha verification for your - all right. Thank sir, for showing your credentials. I’m 1 at the U.S. Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Prisons law enforcement officer credentials, certify that [J] HJ is Lieutenant at the MCC New York, New York. see a picture that matches the gentleman is sitting in front of us. MR. a: Thank you. MR. | You’ re welcome. ou do repeat {2} yn wu ke Park, d you a I that EFTA00115905

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. a: Mr. i. what’s your highest 2 level of education? 3 MR. aa: I have a —bachelors of science 4 degree. 5 MR. a: In what subject? 6 MR. a: Community Services. =) Fs) What college did you receive @ ct =) wu rt Hh K 2) 3 wo a te 3 oO bp $ © State College. 10 MR. a: What year did you receive it? 11 MR. QJ: 2010, May 2 MR. QJ: «2010, May. Okay. What did 3 you do prior to working for the BOP? 4 MR. a: I was in the military and I 15 worked in a law firm. 16 MR. ae: Thank you for your service. 7 What branch of the military? 8 MR. aa: United States Navy Reserv 9 MR. a : How long were you in the 20 military for 21 MR | | 20 years, 23 days, and 21 hours 22 or something like that. 23 MR. a: What was your position and 24 title when you -. 25 MR a: I was an E-6 ship service man, EFTA00115906

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE \o 1 first class petty officer. 2 MR. a: And are you still active in Ww ct : oO =] im bt bh rt i K te No, I’m retired. wi aw Thank you. 6 MR. a : And did you retire in co a oO AJ 1 MR. a: How long have you served with 2 the Federal Bureau of Prisons? ive) a) Thirteen years. 4 MR. a: Thirteen years? And what was 5 the entry on duty date? 16 MR. QM: guly 22 - oo 5 0 5. eo} Lo re} rs] Q K wu o Ee w ct o Fh H fe) 3 w Oo mg When and where was with the BOP? No ke 12) c K + Bb KH ro) ct 2) Ph Bh be. Qo Oo rv] fr] n na Q o 5 i) 3 rt 25 MR. a: Brooklyn, MDC Brookl EFTA00115907

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w wo i=) Nn ive) oO fos) wo OFFICIAL USE 10 That was in 2008? Yes. 5 And what positions - how long rt the MDC for? Q pe oO k 13) G +) ct wu ne wu Five and a half years. ive and a half? fw 5 va I stayed there from 2008— tso °o is) ct is) oa i) K U K o pa Ww Where did you go in October? York. 7 MR. ae: Was it a promotion or =z 7 c fw tf i) ial wu B that To what position? MCC New York, Senior Officer mM ve] o a p. wu b a n And what year was that? Think, I’m going to@ say 2015? ia: a: ia: ist. MR. SE: aa: a: promotion after that? Okay. And what was the next Fa) EFTA00115908

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 title? 2 MR. a: I was a Counselor. And after that? 4 MR. a: GS-11 Lieutenant. a: When did you becom Ww 5 oO 2) fw B wi mw 0] w 7 MR. a: I was temp Lieutenant in 2016. 8 Then, I got 2000, I think ‘17, I got promoted oO ct 18) | ‘18 I got promoted to GS-11. 10 MR. a: What was 11 MCC on August 9th and 10th -- your position at the N i) WwW Fs) ' I ° Fh I was a -. 2019? I was a Lieutenant. 5 I’ll read it. t fea) mo ° Pal w K So we have a - is it J 5 8 correct that you were interviewed already by 9 the FBI and the OIG? Ye No =) id o No rary id Regarding the matter 22 leading up to Epstein’s death o No ion) id Correct. No 5 Great. Thank you. I’m 25 just going to read the report that was created EFTA00115909

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 from that interview. It is an FBI report so I can’t physically hand it to you but because the OIG was there, it’s our information to ask, that’s why I’ll be able to read it to you. Just, as I’m reading it, just let me know if there’s anything that’s inaccurate and then I'll probably stop along the way to just kind of ask for a little bit more collaborations. It says, “Prior to employment with the Bureau of Prisons, | | was a Paralegal at Skadden Law Firm.” MR. a: Skadden. MR. QJ: Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N. MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : “He worked litigation, pro bono, mergers and acquisitions for approximately 10 years.” And was that approximately from 1998 to 2008? MR. Ha: Approximately. MR. a : Okay. ‘i has also been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20 years. || was employed as a Corrections Officer with the BOP in June 1999 at the Metropolitan Detention Center herein after Mpc,” is that correct? EFTA00115910

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 MR. ia: It was January. 2 MR. a : January of ies) 5 > i) H i] 4 MR. a : This is saying that I don’t think this was correct. So, it says that w 6 you were with the MDC since June of 1999. 7 MR. i: I was there - a: you started. co ra Yeah, N 5 All right. you with the MDC - with the BOP and at the Wo n rt al] i ct @ oh oO fos) ‘ fw transitioned rrection Center, or 20 the it “October 5, 2013.” 22 MR. a : “He was later promoted to 23 the rank of Lieutenant on July 8, 2018.” 24 MR. a: Yeah, July Okay. “ was the Ne] rn Fy) EFTA00115911

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 Special Housing Unit, or SHU, Lieutenant for 2 approximately 90 days since Lieutenants rotate 3 throughout the MCC every 90 days.” Is that 4 correct? oO w OB ca 7 or o Cc x According to ma. his 7 duties and responsibilities were as follows.” 8 So prior to us going on. So you were 90 days 9 up until this incident? Were you just about to 10 rotate out of the SHU then? WwW a Lal = wu n Lu. c 13) rt wn rt be be be rt Ss ci) wn = =) t wi a So were you -. 7 MR. ae : So the way that this 8 reads is almost like you were only there for 90 9 days. Were you there for -- 21 MR. ae : -- longer than 90 day 22 MR. a: Well, I was taken out because I 23 was out on an injury. 24 MR. a : Prior to that though, how 25 long were you the SHU Lieutenant? EFTA00115912

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ha: Yeah, for about - because we switch. I was on the desk and just before, I think, like program review or something like that, after program review, they put me up there. MR. QJ: 411 right. But all of July and August of 2000 -- MR. Ha: Yeah, I was - yeah. MR. a : -- and ‘19, so, okay. So you were the SHU Lieutenant for all - at least July and -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- August and a little bit prior. MR. Ee : So it says, “According to | duties and responsibilities are as follows. Control max wing, 10 south and oversee the regular SHU.” MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : And 10 south, my understanding is that’s the very high profile inmates that have one inmate per cell, there’s constant supervision by cameras on them -- MR. | Cameras. EFTA00115913

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 MR. a: -- 2 MR. QR: 9 Uh-huh. MR. a : Okay. Maybe like 4 terrorists? on all times? wu rt ies) 5 MR. QJ: Uh-huh. 6 MR. a : People that go into those 7 - okay. You supervise employees, you control 8 moves, you oversee segregation reviews 9 hereinafter referred to as SROs. “Ensure 10 inmates are given what they have coming.” What 11 does that mean? “Ensure inmate -. 2 MR. a: That means, whatever the 3 institution - if they have - they need soap, 4 they get soap. If they need toilet paper, they 15 get toilet paper. If they need a pen, pad to 16 write on, they get it. 7 MR. ae : So the supplies that 8 they’re -- 9 MR. aa: Supplies that they -- 20 MR. QJ: -- cequired, you ensure - 21 - 22 MR. a: -- that - I ensure that they -. 23 MR. a : -- that they receive what 24 they -- 25 MR. QE: yes. EFTA00115914

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 b Fs) -- what they require. Uh-huh. Ww N OD Okay. And then the next 4 thing that they wrote was, “A lot.” I’m 5 uming what they meant is you have a lot of 6 responsibilities. 8 MR. a : yo is generally the 9 Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 10 shift supervisor.” nN a oO rh MR. a : Were you working a lot WwW oO 0 5 ct } =] (iu) rt z o cad o 5 MR. a : And when you were doing ° foal he i) c ini oO 8 ere you also in the S Les] Fs) * wu oO G fa oe ct oa w rt o i) 21 Housing. 22 MR. ae : Okay. you were 23 doing , you weren’t nece SHU 24 Lieutenant, you were the Operations Lieutenant EFTA00115915

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co ioe) tes) 19 20 OFFICIAL USE 18 MR. a : -- you were the Operations Lieutenant, but MR. QJ: Sos you were - you would - you covered the SHU. MR. FE: so. you typically would do either Aactivities or Operations Lieuten MR. QR: Ye MR. ae : And were you doing that almost on like a daily basis up until then? MR. a: Something like th MR. a : And would it typically be or the evening watch or n Uh-huh. like the morning we MR. ae : Was a lot of it mandated MR. : It was - I mean, it was short, ‘ EFTA00115916

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ive) w wo i=) Nn ive) oO tes) wo OFFICIAL USE 1 io forbidding, you’ve served as both Activities and the Ops -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- Lieutenant, so you’re familiar with those duties and 1) sponsibilities, correct? 5 ’ o w rt hat for BOP employees. ” training in the SHU program Now, have you ever conducted that training? MR. a: Yes. 7) participated? MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. Ee : Okay, great. And do you know of the individuals that were working in the SHU for their quarterly ignments had also received that training at the time? EFTA00115917

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. a: But if they didn’t, you know, 2 we went around and we showed them, you know, 3 showed them training. w a w ion oa ct Q i) 5 oO i} i} a) Fs) -- to that training -. 8 MR. a: -- people that was assigned 9 that were supposed to be there, went to the i=) training. 2 MR || And if they didn’t go for 3 whatever reason, if they was out sick or 4 whatever, I tried to get them trained, you 15 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the 16 training with them, you know, hands on. 7 MR. ae : Now, are you the person 8 that would present the training at the 9 quarterly training? 20 MR. QR: yes. 21 MR. ae : Okay. So as the -. 22 MR. a: Normally the SHU Lieutenant 23 does. 24 MR. a : Okay. So you provided 25 probably the last quarterly training and then EFTA00115918

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ive) w wo i=) nN ive) oO tes) wo OFFICIAL USE 21 anyone who didn’t attend that training, you elf? 7) provided them personal training your MR. aa: But I don’t know if I did it. The prior U Lieutenant probably gave the training. Had you done it in a K oO o Okay. Uh-huh. “He also reviews 292 5 forms which track an inmate’s meals, ” 4 he it) ecreation, medical attention and showers. that like the forms that go into their personnel file? MR. aa: Yes. Uh-huh. And those files in the a) SHU, 1) Okay. The on thet computer - they’re supposed to be printed out every week -- Okay. EFTA00115919

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. a: -- because you’ve got to go 2 backwards. 3 MR. a : And as I’m told, they’re 4 printed out on Sundays? 5 MR. aa: Yes. They’re supposed to be 6 printed out like on Sunday morning watch. 7 MR. a : Okay. 8 MR. a: Put into the file and, you 9 know, because it’s a new week. The new week - 10 MR. QJ: | vb-hun. 11 MR. a: -- is going to start because 2 that morning is breakfast. So it’s breakfast, 3 and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go, 4 breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D. 15 So, breakfast is first at 6 o’clock, or, you 16 know, 5:44, whatever time the count cleared is 7 breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner. 8 MR. a : Okay. So you said on 9 Sundays, is there typically one person that 20 works on Sundays or is it -- 21 MR. QR: No, it’s -- 22 MR. ae : -- whoever is working -- 23 MR. a: -- always -. 24 MR. a : -- on that side? 25 MR. a: It’s always - yeah. It’s EFTA00115920

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 supposed to be two up there -- WwW a ' \ fe) 5 ' 3) 5 \ 4 MR. a : But it’s not like is what I’m askin w ine kK ue] p Q w b b het ct y oO wn w 3 o fi Oo u Oo oo m3 a is°} i a ee 1 c fom uy : 13) c t to 5 12) oO oO KR bh if) i=) ive) a) 4 well, we had a ste 5 got injured and was out sick, 16 it’s by the luck of the draw, ie] id fal fw who was the 9 officer in charge or OIC injured? 20 MR. a: For morning watch, I don’t 22 MR. ae : No, no, no, who got 23 injured, who got out? he was — EFTA00115921

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 yeah, he was out. 2 MR. a : And about when did he go 3 out? 4 MR. a: I don’t remember. 5 MR. QJ: «411 right. But in 6 August, do you remember if there was an OIC? 7 MR. aa: I don’t remember. 8 MR. a : You don’t remember? 9 Sure. 10 MR. a: I have to look at the roster - 11 I don’t -. A 2 ve. : 9&> sOlutely. Do you have if 3 the rosters? Just when we ask some of these 4 questions, you might want to just be able to 15 kind of look at this to be able to kind of 16 refresh your memory. 7 MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. 8 MR. ae : And so, Special Agent 9 | is giving you, or I will be giving you 20 the - one is going to be the duty assignment 21 roster from August 9th and the other one is 22 going to be from August 10th. 23 MR. QM: 9 Uh-huh. 24 MR. ae : I’m sure you’re familiar 25 with these. EFTA00115922

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : Sure. So you’ll be able to like if -- MR. QJ: 9 Uh-huh. MR. a : -- the SHU is towards the bottom and then who was on duty. It’1l show you the Oseps, you know, the Oeps Lieutenant and the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth. All right. So, it says, “Every SHU inmate has an associated 292 form as long as they are in the SHU population.” MR. a : “Once they rotate to another population, the form is invalid and no longer exists.” Now, what does that mean? Do we-they destroy the forms? MR. Ha: No. So what happens is, okay, the way the program operates is, once you come out of the SHU program, like say for instance, if you key to suicide watch area, your original form, or whatever form, is, if it didn’t get printed, if there’s a form there, but that stops, the time stops. MR. a : You mean they create a new form for every housing unit you go into is EFTA00115923

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ios) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE ho a ing. No. in the Special Housing Unit, it MR. aa: -- in general population. MR. a : -- one in suicide watch a form where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did the inmate, you know, get a shower? Like that. MR. Ee : Okay. But what does it na rt rt =) @ _ = kK C rt wy) C 5 0 1) ct a i) rotate to another population the form is invalid and no longer exists?” Are they referring -. MR. aa: Is not in not in the program so I cannot -. MR. ae : It doesn’t continue. MR. a: It doesn’t continue, yeah. But it doesn’t, like, get a) EFTA00115924

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 destroyed, it remains -- MR. QR: No. MR. a : -- in their file. MR. Ha: If it gets printed. MR. QJ: But it -~ MR. a: But, like, say - once they come off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could go back and see if the individual was there. But once they come off the program, I cannot create a document for you. MR. a : Sure. So are the documents maintained electronically? MR. a: It’s a program, so I don’t - as long as you in the SHU program, in the roster, because SENTRY and BOTLEER-BOPWare +PRenetie Sp. —*00+26+43}+-talk to each other. Right? And so what happens is if a person is keyed into SHU, there’s a little box you have to press. MR. QM: uh-huh. MR. QJ: In S0f22=R50PWare, and it’s timestamped. So, once that person is there, it creates an AD order, administrative detention order. Once that administrative detention order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there why the individual was placed in Special EFTA00115925

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Housing -- MR. | Uh-huh. MR. a: -- has to be a reason. If that form is not filled out, the Captain gets an email from the region saying there’s a blank AD order in here, right? So I used to go in there and look every morning to see if somebody, whoever got placed in Special Housing to see what the charges was or if that form was filled out. MR. a : Okay. MR. i: If that form wasn’t filled out, I look at the Lieutenant’s log or I call the Lieutenant, whoever, you know, “Why did this inmate get locked up?” Normally when I do my rounds, I ask the inmates, “Why are you up here?” Some of them lie and they, “I don’t " know why I’m up here,” whatever. But then I find out why they up there, then I know why. It could be SIS investigation, it could be because of a fight. MR. a : Sure. MR. Ha: It could be multiple reasons why the AD order wasn’t created. However, we try to create and do the AD order to place the EFTA00115926

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 w ~] inmate so that he can have a 292 and he’d be on the SHU report. MR. a : So what I’m asking though MR. QJ: Uh-huh. MR. a : -- once it’s created, once they’re there and once this 292 is created, even if it’s not printed out, is it maintained in the system? MR. QR: yes. MR. a : And is it ever deleted? MR. QR: No. MR. a : So that’s what I’m asking. So when this says, “Ceases to exist,” just want to make sure, is once they leave the SHU, it’s not deleted. It’s still always going to exist in a file. MR. a: I mean, long - you’ve got a register number, you could go back, but I don’t know how long the program, you could go back and forth to pull a 292. MR. QJ: okay. MR. Ha: You know, once the person is out of SHU. You know, some forms you can go back and you can pull it. EFTA00115927

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ios) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No N No ion) OFFICIAL USE 30 MR. a: But it’ll stop at the day that bh 105) 5 that person wa eleased or, you know, placed in another housing unit. MR. a : Okay. Now, people that are in the SHU and gets placed in another housing unit, the papers that were printed out, what is done with those? MR. aa: Those goes to the unit team. they went to a different housing uni that goes, if , it goes MR. aa: It goes to the -- MR. Ee : -- to the unit. MR. a: -- unit team and the mailbox, their file, you know, it tells you on the thing, “Copy to unit team for central file.” MR. a: And it goes into their - supposed to go into their folder. MR. ae : But it’s not destroyed EFTA00115928

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. Ee : It says, “Medical Ww Pp 2 personnel visit the SHU twice a day for rounds 3 in the mornings and the evenings.” And it that w 5 “ o wo So - on weekends too? 4 oO iO K 0) n So medical personnel co Fs) wo visit the SHU two times a day, okay. Two - twice show up? Is there -. i=) a N cc 0 c fu Bb f te ive) Fs) Depends. Sometimes they there 4 at, you know, 7 o’clock, 6 o’clock in the 5 morning and then, again, they come up after the 16 4 o’clock count or they might come up before 7 that Okay. Lee) 5 9 MR. a: You know, when shift changes. 20 MR. Ee : But they actually 21 participate in the rounds? 23 MR. a : Okay. “ regularly 24 audits 292 forms from the previous day.” So 25 you’d be constantly seeing, making sure your EFTA00115929

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 staff are doing what they’re supposed to be doing -- MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- with those forms? Okay. HE advised that accountability of inmates is important. He never caught anyone intentionally not doing their job. || also reviews round forms and searches for red flags. These could be missing spaces, missing signatures, etcetera. If caught, || approaches the individual and requests an explanation.” So have you ever caught someone then not doing rounds or -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- anyone that was working on that day - on August 9th or 10th that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have to discuss this matter with any of those individuals? MR. BR: Naw. MR. a : There’s no one in there that you can - that were working on either day? MR. Ha: Not that I know of, no. MR. a : Okay. Can you think of anyone that you did ever have to deal with for EFTA00115930

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ive) w ~ wo ive) Wo v8) not conducting rounds or counts? MR. a: On day watch, you know, we would ask, “You’re doing showers, we down range, we doing this.” It gots to get filled out after, you know, that -. MR. a : But can you think of anyone that you actually had to - that you caught not doing it? Or I should say, your last day at work was on August 8th. Who was the last person you caught not Spe serin: - 290:26:04}+conducting rounds in the -- MR. aa: Oh, I don’t remember. MR. QJ: -- seu?) You don’t? MR. a: I don’t remember. MR. a : Okay. That’s fine. MR. QR: No, sir. MR. a : But you don’t believe it was any of the people that were working? MR. BR: No. MR. QJ: Okay. “J was the sxu Lieutenant when Epstein was assigned. Epstein wasn’t originally in the SHU. | | advised Epstein was in 10 South Lower.” MR. QJ: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : “The population is for EFTA00115931

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 inmates not on 10 South but high-profile.” 2 Okay, so this is the first. There’s two 3 different 10 Souths? 4 MR. a: No. There’s 10 South, then 5 there’s 10 South Lower. 6 MR a : What’s 10 South Lower? 7 I don’t know -. a: G Tier. 10 MR. a: All right? G Tier has four co i wo F 11 cells where you can put high-profile or 2 terrorist inmates if 10 South is full. Ww 5 - 9° w z 4 MR. a: 10 South only holds a maximum 15 of six inmates. 16 MR. Ee : So was he originally 7 going to go to 10 8 South then and was changed -. 9 MR aa: Oh, I don’t know. 21 MR. a: When I got there, he was A on G 23 MR. a : Okay. So I thought you 24 just said that 10 South Lower is for people 25 that were going if 10 South was full. EFTA00115932

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL wo wi USE 1 MR. a: They can put you on the Tier, 2 but they put a lot of - they put disruptive 3 inmates on that tier. 4 MR. QJ: okay. 5 MR. aa: So it’s not up to me, it’s up 6 to that shift Lieutenant. 7 MR. a : Sure. 8 MR. a: But, if the Captain or somebody 9 or, you know, the Warden or somebody, “Hey, put 10 that guy on G Tier amdé—then that’s where he’s 11 going,” that’s where that individual will go. 2 That’s where he will be housed if that 3 individual was disruptive or anything like 4 that 15 MR. a : And do you how long he 16 was on 10 South Lower approximately? 7 MR. a: I don’t know. 8 MR. a : Was it a long time? 9 MR. a: I don’t know. 20 MR. QJ: | You don’t know? 21 MR. : Like, when he - I guess, you 22 know, when he got there to the institution, he 23 was put on - he was on G Tier. 24 MR. a : G Tier is 10 South Lower? 25 MR. QR: yes. EFTA00115933

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE Lo oO y- Is 10 South Lower similar to 10 inmate per cell? i] 3 oO ht w ifs) Bb 5 MR. i: Yes. MR. a : All right, so it’s set up pretty much the same way as 10 South? MR. Ee : So he was never MR. aa: I don’t think so. So when he came EFTA00115934

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 MR. a: When he was moved off of G wo ies) Tier, if that’s the question you’re asking me, 4 and placed with a bunkie, that didn’t come from w 3 oO 6 MR. a : Sure. Who does - so, did 7 you supervise both 10 South, 10 South Lower and fos) ct J o i @ Q c an wu 6 wn < te) F Ke o w to and the regular SHU, ie) 5 H a fu rt rt) ny] Bb I ct io” o w ny] 3 0) WwW Fs) ' | It’s one big unit. t oO a Les] Fs) =) ue] i] rt y B H i] k ifs] w u separate unit 9 because 10 South 7 a bh ct n 3 12] ct ° o | o o be he c o P- ct ct a fw ct i) 20 Lower is in the Special H 22 MR. i: It’s on the Special Housing sing Unit. that’ n 23 Unit count. 24 MR. 25 though is EFTA00115935

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

Lo co LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 unit, in 10 - the SHU unit. ies) nN Od K i] n Whether lower or just wi mo K oO 1) 7 MR. | I got a - just one -- 8 MR. QR: 9 Uh-huh. 9 MR. | You just mentioned - y 10 G Tier, the 10 uth Lower, is 11 part of the SHU count. Yes. n t Wo id n 12] bh if ct 7 fu ct N a) 12] 5 c Les] 5 N w bh i) be o Oo pa rt =) thing. 22 MR. Ee : Oh, can we have you look nts then, just for clarification? coun 24 MR. aa: It should be - look - if you 25 look at - if you pull up the document for the EFTA00115936

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL Ww wo USE El that you just flipped by. from the time on 4:00 count? p.m. That was actually when count the entire SHU? It’s ZA. not - 10 South is no a separate unit. EFTA00115937

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 MR. Ee : So that’s what we were > Ww a a K U le 1 0 i} n 1 if] ct p wu er N He \ ct D ® mn o w South Lower i ts) incorporated with the whole of Oo the regular SHU. is] 8 MR. a : And ZB is just 10 South. 9 mR. QR: Yes. 10 MR. a : Right. “Epstein was 11 assigned to cell 201 in the SHU. During their 2 first -” - okay, is that correct 3 MR aa: I guess I don’t know 4 MR. ae : “During their first 15 encounter, Epstein asked ia. ‘Am I going to 16 get out of here?’ | | remembers Epstein 7 frequenting the attorney conference area for 8 long periods of time.” Is it true that at 9 almost - while he was assigned to the SHU was 20 just about every day he was in the - he would 21 go to the attorney area? 22 MR. QR: yes. 23 MR. a : Okay. “ advised that 24 at one point during the beginning at a meeting 25 with MCC Executive Management, they wanted to EFTA00115938

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 house Epstein with a bunkie. | | doesn’t recall exactly who requested this action, however, he remembers they were trying to identify an inmate. Ultimately, they decided to house Epstein with Tartaglione. || wasn’t asked for his input and followed Executive Management orders. There was an instant on 7/23/2019 between the two but it didn’t occur on | shift. He heard about it the next day. Lieutenant | completed the 583 packet which includes memos and photos resulting from the incident.” So although you weren’t there, were you familiar with what happened or had -. MR. i: I’m a Lieutenant, so I have to know. MR. ae : So were - did you hear anything about him either trying to commit suicide or his cell mate attempting to kill him? MR. ia: I don’t recall. MR. a : So what is it that you recall from it? MR. a: I just know I - you know, you read in this day chart that he tried to hang EFTA00115939

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE himself and I looked at the 583, I looked at the pictures, saw the pictures. MR. a : So your understanding -- MR. a : -- was that he tried to MR. aa: And his bunkie, you know, I called out or whe tever. They went - they, you know, Lieutenant | or whatever, she did what she had to do. He was on suicide watch the next day and, you know, that was it. And what -. Fs) You know, I don’t recall everything, you know, it’s - I - you read it briefly, but I was -. MR. Ee : So, do you know what happened with his cell mate? Did he remain in the SHU? 5 K 1) fw S MR. a : Did he get placed with another cell mate? MR. a: Oh, I don’t remember. EFTA00115940

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. Ee : Are inmates in the SHU required to have cellmates when they’re in the SHU? MR. Ha: Yes. However, there’s exceptions because some of them you can’t house them with nobody. MR. a : And is that because they would get harmed if they were housed with someone? MR. ee : And is that what - is South Lower is for or is that part of what 10 that - it’s just regular SHU, the inmates know? MR. QB: Just like some have on their door, “Housing rec alone,” because they could have multiple SAMSsteps. Some of them, you know, they could be fear for their life. You always, you know, you have that, but we try to bunk up everybody. MR. QJ: 411 right, so aside from these special exceptions, inmates are supposed to have -. MR. Ha: Yeah, we try to bunk everybody up. Yeah. MR. a : Now is that policy or EFTA00115941

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 just a decision that was made? MR. Ha: No, that’s something that, you know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did that, because once you knew individuals receive - you can’t - policy states that you’re not supposed to have an AD, Administrative Detention person and a person that’s under disciplinary segregation together, housed together. It’s supposed to be separate. MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: That’s the policy that they - that’s 5270, you know, point whatever the new number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program statement. When Psychology says that this person tried to harm themselves, we make sure that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know, they have a companion or somebody in there that they could talk to so that, you know, they don’t feel despondent, you know. SHU is a place, you know, if you don’t check on these inmates, you know, they’re going to remind you. MR. a : Right. MR. Ha: So, you know, you’ve got to make rounds, you’ve got to check on - be checking on these inmates. You’ve got to be EFTA00115942

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 rt 7] fu 1 seeing what they’re doing, you know. I tough place. 4 MR. a: You know. MR. a : So, inmates that aren’t a ies) i w a 6 special situation should have a cell mate and 7 especially inmates that are coming back from 8 suicide watch -- wo a K oO on 10 MR. Ee : -- they, in particular, 11 should have a -. 2 MR. ia: Fe-Should have a cell mate. 3 Yeah u 15 recalls interaction with Epstein on watch. 16 Epstein stated, ‘I don’t want to be here and 7 I’m going to hurt myself.’” He said that to 8 you? wo a3 I don’t recall saying that. 20 MR. QJ: 411 right. So again, it 21 says, yo recalls interacting with Epstein on 22 watch. Epstein stated, ‘I don’t want to be 23 here and I’m going to hurt myself.’” 25 MR. a : You don’t believe that’s EFTA00115943

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 accurate? 2 MR. a: I’m not going to hurt myself. aa: Oh, not going to hurt -. 4 MR. a : Oh, no, sorry, “I’m not - ies) i w 7 MR. a : -- going to hur MR. a: I don’t remember him rt =] te w ) rea Fh co a oO ct My ial + 1 that, “I don’t want to be here and I’m not 2 going to hurt myself?” ive) a) t oO a 7 MR. a: But a lot of inmates say that, Les] ke 18) Cc _ =] 13) = : ( a : bet 3 3 Oo rr going to hurt myself.” 9 you right in your face and like, 20 “Yeah, and tho markings on say 21 something totally different.” 22 MR. ae : So would have that -- 23 MR. a: But 24 MR. a : -- would have he said 25 this to you after he came back from suicide EFTA00115944

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch -- 2 MR. 3 MR. a : -- the second time -- 4 MR. QR: 9 Yeah. 5 MR. a : -- I’m assuming? 6 vR. : I mean, because I escorted him 7 to attorney conference, you know, I’m the one - 8 I had interactions with him, you know, he 9 talked to me or whatever, you know. No special 10 privileges, you know. But I treated him like I 11 treat anybody else, as a decent human being. 2 MR. a : Okay. Was he telling you 3 this though that he wouldn’t be housed with 4 another inmate? 7 SHU? t wi ~ a Yes, he wanted to get out of : And where did he want to 21 go? 22 MR. a: He wanted to go, I guess, to 23 general population. 24 MR. a : Did he ever say that 25 that’s where he wanted to EFTA00115945

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

co LIMITED OFFICIAL USE at 1 MR. QR: ye 2 MR. QM: te dia? 3 MR. QB: 0 uh-huh. 4 MR. a : He said he wanted to go 5 to general pop? h. fu o a Uh-huh. 8 also remembers feeding Epstein. The BOP 9 psychologist said that Epstein 10 with a cell mate when he returned to the SHU.” 11 And this is after the July 23rd incident? 2 MR. a: Yes 3 MR. a : Okay So, he came back 4 to the SHU, do you recall, around like July 5 30th 16 MR. ia: When he - wh he came 7 back to the SHU, he came back. 8 MR. a : And then that -- 9 MR. QM: And - 20 MR. Ee : -- around that date is aid he’s got to be 24 MR. a : Okay. yi provided 25 cell mate recommendations but they were still EFTA00115946

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 oO 1 deciding on an individual when || left the 2 institution that night. | | called to ensure 3 that he received a bunkie. BOP decision makers 4 chose Efrain Reyes.” w MR. aa: Yes. 6 MR. a : yo remembers Epstein 7 requesting to make a phone call to his 8 daughter. || doesn’t do phone calls because 9 he is unaware of every inmates restricted 10 contact list.” 11 MR. a: Yeah. I don’t make phone 2 calls. 3 MR. a : Okay. 4 MR. a: That’s the unit team. 15 MR. a : All right. We’re going 16 to go back to Reyes. 7 MR. a: Or if somebody tells me I have 8 to make it directly - my direct supervisor 9 says, “Hey, give this guy a telephone call,” 20 then that’s something totally different. 21 MR. ae : All right. So after - so 22 you said around July 30 -- 23 MR. QM: 9 Uh-huh. 24 MR. a : -- 2019, you were 25 informed by psychology, “‘ needs a cell EFTA00115947

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 mate,” correct? 2 MR. : needs a cell mate? mm: ma No, sorry, “Epstein needs ies) a Ww aw K oO wu a 4 Ss i) te o) o =] ct wu Ss oO 3 wu b. f 6 4 8 Captain and the 9 warden, they was like, 10 mate.” And told you that? ive) a) And then what did you do 4 with that information? Did you provide it to everybody that work in the SHU? MR. ia: Ye 7 MR. ae : All right, now, can you tell me a little bit about how did the people t oO a 1) co 9 that work in the SHU know that Epstein was - do you know 24 how to spell that name? It might be on there. 25 MR. a: It’s | - I do know how to EFTA00115948

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 c a] I don’t know the ild know how told 16 MR. ia: No, I spoke to him. He’s the n And then, did you inform 19 others though that we e? Cell mate? I mean, time, I’m just 2 are 23 o him. If I call you, 24 information. I spo 25 down, I verified it. EFTA00115949

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ie) 1 The next day when I came to work, he had a bunkie. ies) a Yeah, yeah. 4 MR. a: The bunkie was there and we had w o if postings up around, “This individual needs a bunkie. 7 MR. a : Okay. Great. Can you me a little about that? oO fos) n Me] oO fu a +t 12] wo a oO ~ wu kK 10 MR. a : You said there were 11 postings within the SHU that -. 2 MR. a: On the door, on the desk, on 3 the OIC desk, there was - I believe there was 4 postings that he was supposed to have a bunkie. c uw a So on the OI -. It was written. 7 MR. ae : On the OIC desk, there t oO a 8 was a - or what door was there a sign? 9 MR aa: On his cell door. 20 MR. QJ: Ss So Epstein’s cell door, 21 there was a posting saying, “Epstein is 22 required to have a cell mate?” 23 MR. a: Yes. 24 MR. a : Okay. And do you know 5 who - if that - did that remain up until you EFTA00115950

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 left on August 8th? MR. Ha: No, because he was on suicide watch. Then it was taken off. He was placed with Reyes, and was in the cell, so I don’t recall - after I left that day, I don’t know what, you know - everything was in place. MR. a : Yeah, no, what I’m saying is that prior to leaving, I’m wondering if the people that worked in the SHU, because obviously as you know Reyes left on the 9th and you weren’t there. MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : But did the people that were in there - I want to know if the people who were in the SHU -. MR. Ha: My crew, whoever worked - we had a skinless crew. You could see who worked day watch. MR. Ee : Sure. MR. Ha: Right? You can see who worked evening watch. Okay? The people that were there August 9th, I can’t, you know, vouch for. Okay? But everybody knew that was part of the SHU crew -- MR. a: Okay. So can you look at EFTA00115951

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

c w tm LIMITED OFFICIAL [ 54 2 MR. a: -- and not everybody on this 3 list was, you know, is - these is fill ins. 4 It’s not their assigned post. 5 MR. a : So can you tell me who on 6 the SHU day watch crew of August 9th, who was a 7 regular and who would have known that he was 8 required to have a cell mate? 9 MR. a: | was there, he knows. 10 He worked - | knew, he was Ww ig > f a the number one. 4 MR. ae : So who then on that 15 didn’t know? Or you don’t know if they know. 16 MR. ia: I don’t know. I mean, 7 everybody - once the OIC knows and the crew, 8 everybody -. 9 MR. QJ: So is it kind of like the 20 military? You’re the officer, you tell your 21 head Sergeant, “Make sure everybody knows 22 this,” that Sergeant is then therefore 23 responsible for telling everyone else? 24 mR. QE: ves. 25 MR. a : So, do you recall having EFTA00115952

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 55 conversations with these people as well though? MR. a: No, because they don’t - everybody -. MR. QJ: sso it’s EE. MR. Ha: I spoke - the date-day that he was required to have a bunkie, I spoke to a. MR. Ee : Sure. MR. i: | took care of it from there. All I know, when I came in, I checked, he had a bunkie, that was it. MR. a : And I understand this. But what -. MR. Ha: And so, I cannot explain for another shift. I cannot explain - only could tell what | | did. I don’t know what anybody else did after I left. I don’t know. I cannot nswer that. MR. a : Right. So like you were saying, he was housed with a bunkie on July wu 30th. What we’re asking is that between July 30th and between August 9th, the days that you were there, were you conversing with these people to remind them that he was required to have a cell -. EFTA00115953

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: It wasn’t nothing to talk about because everybody knew. He wasn’t by his self, so he has a bunkie so -. MR. a : Right. But isn’t it true that the - at the MCC, inmates are constantly coming in and out? It’s more of a jail than a prison? MR. QM: yes. But one thing don’t have nothing to do with - if we’re working every day together, I don’t - why am I keep telling you the same thing every day? I don’t have to tell you your job to what you’re supposed to do every day. I’ve got to keep reminding you to feed? I have a billion other things to do. MR. QJ: Bot - but -. MR. a: So what you’re saying to me, I cannot answer that because I don’t know. MR. a : So, what we’re asking is did you have conversations with anyone on those other days about the reminder that Epstein is required to have a cell mate? MR. a: I had a conversation with the crew and I don’t keep repeating myself. He has a bunkie. Every day I come in, I check, he’s got a bunkie. What is there to talk about? If EFTA00115954

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 it’s way down -. 2 MR. a : What we’re asking is -. 3 MR. aa: I don’t know - I don’t under-. 4 MR. a : You’re saying that you 5 had a conversation with the one man who was the 6 Officer in Charge. What I’m asking you is, did 7 you have a conversation with anyone else aside 8 from him? Between July 30th and August 9th, 9 did you have any conversations -- 10 MR. a: I don’t recall. 11 MR. Ee : -- with anyone -- 2 MR. aa: I don’t recall. 3 MR. a : -- other than the Officer 4 in Charge. 15 MR. aa: I don’t recall. 16 MR. Ee : Okay. So you said that 7 there was a sticky that was on the door. Was 8 the sticky only on the door on July 30th or did 9 it remain on the door from July 30th to August 20 8th? 21 MR. a: It remained up there, it was on 22 the desk. 23 MR. a : Okay. 24 MR. aa: A big sign that said, “Epstein 25 is supposed to have a bunkie,” on the desk, on EFTA00115955

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ive) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No N N ion) OFFICIAL USE station. all I know, lace. I’m not there ue] 0 hange. I don’t know. when you were in the SH place for you? mR. BR: 1 sit with the correctional No. so you know that on 7) when I lef I come down, July sayin uw a ty =] oF rt a fu rt 07) ct fu ayed on there s don’t know. It - , I t, everything was in right now. Things could I cannot answer that. if) in like are you not officers? All right. And how -. I make rounds. So you’re not sure if - 30th there was this g that Epstein required cell mate. Are what EFTA00115956

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 you’re saying is that you don’t know if that sticky note stayed on that after he was issued Ww n Q 3 i) | 4 MR. a: It was there when I was up w ct a oO 6 oO 2) 5 ct Za oO oo ct a fon) a | io” wu ct = nT] if] question. oo 5 Ke © wu i= It was something was wo written -- 10 MR. QJ: «so -. 11 MR. a: -- that Epstein should have a 2 bunkie. It was something on the desk, yes, ive) there was something there. 4 MR. ae : And that was the question. w F oO Fs e) =] rt > ) o rt fa 8 July 30th basically to August 8th there was 9 something on the desk saying, “Epstein is 20 a cell mate.” 21 wR. QR: ve 22 MR. ae : Perfect. 23 MR. a: Oh, okay. 24 MR. a : Okay. And is that the 25 same thing for the sticky that was on the door? ts) EFTA00115957

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE MR. QE: ll. That Io I don’ fine. Uh-huh “op pstein t recall. The door your don’t Now, does everybody Would every works in the -- would they see? -- right there on the | | 2 rh Mh bh aQ 0) R bh: 5 QO = fu = 0) a a 0) Kh o nei G Bb Kh Oo o t fe) > fw i) wu 60 EFTA00115958

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO i=) nN ive) oO co wo OFFICIAL USE maybe it was know it was bulletin, 5 a) right there. said, don’t know. on the J ] you know, up 61 one, I think - I forget, done on colored paper. It was - I desk and it the was on you know -- Got a bulletin board? -- right there. Yeah. Okay. On, like on the wall, like It was there. , but, like I until the time I left, I Yeah, I understand that -- know what happened -- and -. I’m quite sure Sometimes it was just me Sure. And I’m just EFTA00115959

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 62 trying to get - I’m just trying to understand. MR. Ha: So, I don’t remember conversations, daily conversations that I had with people every, you know, day. All right? We knew, the Lieutenants knew, everybody knew, you know, you come from suicide watch, you have a bunkie. MR. a : Right. So is everybody that’s working the - should everyone that’s working in the SHU should they know that? MR. QR: Yes. MR. a : Should everyone that was working in the SHU known that - if Epstein’s cell mate was removed, he should be housed with a bunkie? MR. QR: yes. MR. MM: But, however, you don’t know if he’s been removed. We don’t know. MR. ae : Once it’s told. So once they find out Reyes is gone, he’s not coming back -. MR. QM: 8e should have had a bunkie. EFTA00115960

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 is) Ww MR. a : And should have the SHU, people that were working there known? MR. a: They know - MR. a : They knew, “We need to tell the Lieutenant,” - not you. MR. QR: 9 veah. MR. a : “We need to tell whoever the Lieutenant is on duty, the ¢Sf£iee—Ops Lieutenant, the Activities Lieutenant,” whoever is their chain of command, “We’ve got to let them know Reyes is gone, he needs a bunkie.” MR. a: Yeah, he needs a bunkie, yeah. MR. a : Okay. So that’s how it should have happened and the people that were there should have done that. And I’m not saying that they didn’t. I’m just asking if that’s what they should have done. MR. a: I guess. Yeah. MR. a : Could those people that were working in the SHU, did they have the authority to be able to reassign Epstein a bunkie? MR. QR: Yes. MR. QJ: so -. MR. Ha: Until the next day or whatever, EFTA00115961

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO wo ° N ive) oO oo wo No N N ion) OFFICIAL USE yeah, do th wu rt =>cked MR. know, check if he with? ha MR. QE: officer, MR. everybody has - can do - any officer just put somebody in there No, you’ve to check fi got who -- So You’ ve got to -. -- would have they and see if he - from this per look at their you they check in the Predators or anything like Sure, with a Lieutenant first before -. No, they can check, any they have access. 64 can So even with Epstein, rst. you son, file but do they need to EFTA00115962

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 w ~] MR. Ha: And if they don’t, they should call the Lieutenant and say, “Hey, LT, such and such,” yeah. MR. a : Okay. So were they - but because I’m assuming as you know, and I don’t think we discussed this, that - oh, we did. The inmates that were with Epstein were vetted by the high, you know -- MR. i: The higher-ups, yes. MR. a : -- the Warden, the Captain -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- and possibly -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- the Regional Director. So even though those were vetted, could have the SHU correction officers, or at least temporarily, placed Epstein with a different inmate? MR. QR: 9 yeah. MR. a : They could have still done that? And they would have been authorized? Okay. They wouldn’t have had to check with the Office Lieutenant, say, “Get with the Captain.” EFTA00115963

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ha: I mean, I would have did it. MR. a: That’s what my - if he needed a bunkie -- MR. QM: | ub-houh. MR. a: -- or he would have been - somebody would have been watching him, that’s just me, but I’m different, you know. I do, you know, I’m a forward thinker, so like I said, I wasn’t there. MR. a : Right. And being a forward thinker though, and that’s where I was asking, do you recall -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- having conversations, “” “Hey guys, you know, you have to -” - you already said that there was the note that (Indiscernible *00:52:25). MR. Ha: But everybody knows you come from suicide watch - if that’s the question you’re asking me - you come from suicide watch, you have to have a bunkie. MR. a : And does that last for a certain amount of time? So for instance, he came from suicide watch on July 30th. 66 EFTA00115964

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 67 MR. a: Uh-huh. MR. aa: Only up until you leave Special a bunkie. right, where you cannot have a he came from suicide watch, he doesr r MR. a: He doesn’t. pecial -- cybody knew that -- hould have had a MR. a: Everybody should have known, u c p a Be Q. o come from watch, you have a bunkie. EFTA00115965

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. Ee : So not only did 2 psychology send out an email, like you stated - o ao Ww | that he was w a i} i} wn w ke py s Q 6 required to have a bunkie, it’s al i) Oo policy that th have a bunkie? Les] a] K oO wu oy 4 wu rt = n Kh int rom me walking wo in the door, you know, you come from suicide i=) watch, a bunkie. 11 MR. Ee : Okay. It says, ‘a N I 5 mh fe) K 3 o om I Ww 5 mM Oo yu can write that down, you now. No, no, I’m just - that’s for oO | I wo a3 oo a] I I =] i) K B ite} > rt I I 25 MR. QJ: 39 (indiscernible *00:53:43). EFTA00115966

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 a fu rt wo i] 73) het ie] > e] pe Oo Q kK oO) to N Fs WwW a K 12] co =! 5 fe) = wi aw You can ask psychology. But, Q 6 all I know from the train s and the th 7 that I’ve been in, yu come from suicide watch, 8 you have to a bunkie. That was from when 9 I joined the Bureau. is later, now on this next paragraph. you actually 2 I ys, yO informed his direct 4 rt ts) w he A ” ive) subordinate,” and 4 Charge. t oO a you pronounce his name? 9 MR. Ee : “-- | that Epstein her bunkie. Th were short-staffed co 20 needed And I’m assuming this is July 30th EFTA00115967

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. : Uh-huh. MR. a : Okay. “The next morning, he had a bunkie. Inmates receive bunkies when they come off suicide watch. It’s common practice in BOP. This is clearly communicated in suicide watch training. It’s posted throughout the area and it’s also institutional knowledge.” MR. Ha: Correct. MR. a : Okay. So everybody should have known. MR. EB: Yes. MR. QJ: |“ epstein had a bunkie on 8/8/2019. || is unaware of anything other than that because he wasn’t working. Reyes was Epstein’s bunkie when | | left work. Epstein was down in an attorney conference as well. ia communicated the message regarding a bunkie to QJ. 4e didn’t speak to anyone else about it because he expected | to disseminate it to his subordinates. There were no other emails or communications regarding the matter. The message was spread by word of mouth.” Aside from what you said, there was EFTA00115968

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 actually a Post It note on J -. 2 MR. a: Yeah, but that’s - the way ies) you’re reading that, is like after, on the 8th, 4 right, he had a bunkie and then Fs didn’t w tell nobody, you know, I’m just - that’s not s incorrect. 7 MR. a : No, no, no, so it -- 8 MR. a: You could -. wo a3 i} i} un i] ke U rt y wf ct he 2) c 3) ny] bh ish 10 that he was to disseminate it to his 11 subordinates. It - so what it means, I 2 think that -- Wa 5 > i) 5 x 0) rh c K n rt | 4 MR. QJ: «s -- and I didn’t write 16 MR. ia: Yeah. When he first - when the 7 first - when we found out that he have to have 8 a bunkie, when it was told to us, that’s when I 21 MR. a: And from that point on, he had ho wrote then next - and again, we didn’t write wi this. No EFTA00115969

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 72 h. wu MR. QR: ye MR. a : That’s why we’re here -- MR. QB: 0 uh-huh. MR. a : -- to make sure that we got everything right. MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : It says, “There were no other emails or communications regarding the “” matter. So I think what they mean is, you didn’t send out an email to MR. a: No, because -. MR. a : -- and you didn’t communicate with anyone else about it? MR. a: No, because when I found out about it, it was on the phone. MR. QB: What you mean, on not talking about 8/8. I’m talking about prior No, I’m MR. QJ: 9 July 30th. T a at’s prior to. On 8/8 he had a bunkie, so it was nothing for me to pass down EFTA00115970

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 ioe) J you were talki w arding 9 MR. -- after 8 - 10 MR. was t 11 up to. 12 MR. a : All right. don’t -- 5 F Ww Pal f o on om 18 MR. aa: -- that’s not how it’s suppo its) | | 22 MR. ae : -- the benefit of the 25 MR. a : I was saying that you EFTA00115971

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 didn’t have any other emails, communications 2 regarding the matter after - from 8/8 to 8/9. 3 MR. QM: Well, I’m not. 4 MR. a : So what you’re saying is, 5 “No, no, no, I didn’t have any communications 6 with him about it at all,” from July 30th to 7 8/9? 8 MR. a: After I left on the 8th, he had 9 a bunkie. 10 MR. QJ: nd that’s 11 saying. 2 MR. a: Yes, he had a bunkie. 3 MR. QR: Ss Yep. 4 MR. a: So, it was - what else is there 15 to talk about? He has a bunkie. So, if he 16 doesn’t have a bunkie, right, he should have a 7 bunkie. I wasn’t there those other days, so I 8 don’t know. 9 MR. a : Can I ask a question? 20 MR. QJ: Yeah. 21 MR. ae: The instructions you gave 22 WN». as it the day that Epstein came back 23 from suicide watch? 24 mR. QE: ves. 25 MR. ae: And that would be July 30th, EFTA00115972

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 ~) wi just -- MR. QM: Yes. MR. a: -- according to the data. MR. i: Yes. MR. a: Past that date, right, you already mentioned past that date, did you have any individual conversations with anyone or send any emails from July 30th to August 8th, your last day? MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. i: -- psychology sent out the email. Why am I - people don’t even read their emails. So, emails - if it’s not documented, it’s not out, how are you going to know? What if you don’t have access to your computer? A lot of people don’t have access to their computers. They say, “Oh, I left my PIV card at home. Oh, can I get an override?” You have some Lieutenants that can’t even give overrides. MR. ae : I got -. MR. Ha: I wasn’t there. MR. QJ: st cet -. MR. a: So I don’t know. EFTA00115973

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

ies) w ~] wo i=) ive) w MR. a: Psychology sent the email out. MR. a : On July 30th, correct. MR. a: Or whenever they sent it out. You all have the email, you have all of that documentation. MR. a: Did you get any verbal MR. a: And what did the Cap- what did | tell you exactly? MR. a: He said, “Hold on, the Warden wants to make sure that he has a bunkie.” So I stayed there past my time, or whatever, to make sure, you know, that he had a bunkie and when they vetted whoever they vetted, and they you know, what it was going to be, that’s when I spoke to a. he said, “I got it.” He said, “The Warden, I spoke to them, I got it, I eo) got you.” That’s it. And the next day I came EFTA00115974

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 he had a bunkie. 2 MR. a: And you said that back - you relayed that information back to a: ies) 5 MR. a: Okay you 6 any ructions make sure he has a bunkie.” Did he tell you, “Hey, 8 listen, let me know if inmate gets moved?” wo a O 11 MR. a: If he - if the inmate got 2 removed from the cell, I wouldnt know. But I 3 wasn’t there so I cannot answer that question. 4 MR. QJ: §=No, no, but I -. 5 MR. a : So this is the point of iersation, you weren’t there so we need t oO oO i= KK Q Oo Ss 7 to know, who knew what. ies) id H ! Who knew -. wo a3 20 MR. QE: who -. 21 MR. ae : Who knew about -. 22 MR. i: The Captain knew -- 24 MR. aa: -- the Warden knew that he had EFTA00115975

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 78 MR. Ee : But unless - how are they going to find out unless someone tells them? MR. aa: And all of the officers knew ct os fu rt i] ue] it) t o t 5 bh fF) if) upposed to have a bunkie. hat’s what you want to hear? That’s what everybody is supposed to have. MR. a : Exactly. And that’s -- MR. a : -- all we’re asking about is how did they know? You d that everyone MR. aa: It was passed down. It was sent - an email was sent out and -. MR. ae : The email wasn’t sent out Lieutenants. MR. i: Yes. And I passed it - and it was sent out I think to the - oh, is | on there? I don’t know. MR. ae: Okay. Let me look. EFTA00115976

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE 79 MR. Ee : Is this the email you’re referring to from July 30, 2019? I think some of the SHU people may - they’re second to the last or the last page. I think second - or the page you’re on now towards the bottom. MR. i: Uh-huh. So it wasn’t just sent to the Lieutenants, it was sent to supervising staff. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. Ha: It was sent to staff. MR. a : SHU staff, correct? MR. a: | is on there as a SHU staff person, he got it. And like I said, people don’t open their emails. You see how many people did not - even thea Captain. MR. QJ: | Right. MR. a: So, so hold on. What I’m trying to explain to you is, it was spoken, people knew that he was supposed to have a bunkie. MR. a : So, again, the reason why we're asking you the question, we understand now that this - we have this email and we know who got it. MR. Ha: I know why you’re asking me the EFTA00115977

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 80 We’ re MR. aa: And - and -. Lieutenant, what conversations did you have just asking what -- -- you’re the SHU about it? specifically that he has a bunkie. Right. And then, when I’m at work, do he has to MR. ae : So you told anybody was working with me on the days that I was working, knew that he EFTA00115978

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 had to have a bunkie. 2 eT 3 them. 4 MR. QB: MR. a: 6 MR. QR: and i MR. a: Becau w ~] 8 what we’re saying, yo 9 communications with e 10 you guys know Epstein 11 MR. QR: Yes, 12 because I wasn’t ther 13 MR. a: 14 them on that day but 15 working there worked 16 day. 17 MR. QR: If th 18 knew he had to have a 19 MR. a: 20 when we’re looking at 21 so that’s why we just 22 people know. That’s 23 this. 24 mR. QB: = don 25 me, with whoever, I don’t remember 81 And because you told se I told them. Okay. So everybody on -. t was posted. Perfect. And this is u had verbal veryone saying, “Hey, man, needs a bunkie.” but not on those two days e. Yeah, you didn’t have the people that were in the SHU prior to that ey worked with me, they bunkie, yes. Okay. And that’s where - this, you weren’t there, need to know, these why we’re talking about ’t - if they worked with who - every EFTA00115979

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B82 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 day it changes who - daily it changes. MR. I: okay. MR. a: Some people are on overtime working and I work. Okay? On the 8th, I didn’t work overtime. I went home. It was my birthday. I went home. I wasn’t supposed to be there. I was supposed to be on vacation and then I had military leave that weekend. I got injured. So I don’t know what you all are trying to look for. I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t know. MR. a: So we’re not trying to say like that - so, here’s the thing. You spoke to anyone who was on the shift. What’s your regular shift. Regular -. MR. QM: 96:00 to 2:00. MR. a: So, what about any SHU employees that comes on shift after you leave, how would they have known? MR. Ha: The SHU 3 would know because I would tell them, “Hey, yo, he need a bunkie, Epstein would need a bunkie.” MR. a: And they -. MR. a: And it’s written. MR. a: How would it -. EFTA00115980

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ha: We pass down - you pass down information. MR. a : Okay. So, and then the next paragraph is, yi advised that Correctional Officer Thomas and Corrections Officer Noel know that inmates on suicide watch are housed with a bunkie. If Epstein were spotted alone in his cell, || expressed that it would have been reported to the shift supervisor.” Is that correct? MR. Ha: It should have been reported to the shift -. MR. a : And both Noel and Thomas, both, they should have known that Epstein was required to have a bunkie. MR. QR: 9 yeah. MR. ae : Okay. And do you recall - and we’1ll just talk about those two, do you recall or do you know how they would have known? Did you have -. MR. ia: It would have been on the computer. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a: It would -. MR. QM: and they would have -- EFTA00115981

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. QR: It would -. 2 MR. a : -- been sitting at that WwW Qo 3) 3 'S c ct o ta "0 4 MR. a: At that computer, it would have on the desk. 6 MR. a : So would either of them w o oO oO o 7 been sitting - so when someone is in the SHU, 8 especially if you’re doing the shift that they 9 were where it’s like 10:00 - I think it’s like 10 midnight to 8:00 a.m. or 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 11 a.m 2 MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. ive) Fs) Would have they been 4 sitting at that computer where the - it said 5 Epstein was required to have a bunkie? Uh-huh. t oO a oo Fs) K i) if 9 MR. Ee : Okay. Great. Thank you. 20 And it says, “If an inmate left WAB.” What’s 21 W-A-B? 23 MR. a : With all belongings or ho No w bd K @ fu h, with - yeah, something to EFTA00115982

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. a : Okay. So, ‘a would still expect his corrections officers to notify him of the vacancy.” So, is that meaning that being that Epstein left, would have you expected that your officers had called you while you were on leave and let you know? MR. a: No, they - you would notify a supervisor. A supervisor has rights to the roster. We know who is leaving and who is not. MR. a : Did you know that || s was leaving? MR. BR: No. MR. aa: Is that normally cleared with you the night before or -. MR. a: The court list is given out the night before. MR. a: What time would it normally come in? MR. QJ: After 4:00. MR. a: And he wasn’t on the list. MR. a: I didn’t see a court list. MR. | : Okay. MR. a: So I can’t - you know, I was gone. EFTA00115983

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. Ee : Should have they known 2 that he was going? ao oO ies) aj ie) =] a 4 MR. a : I think, wasn’t it the opposed to him -. MR. a: Oh, I don’t know. Because I wasn’t there. I w We c Q Q oO rr > w ct o oO ie) Be Q 0 ro wy n Oo co Fs) wo don’t know how he left the building. But, i=) inmates could go to court and not come back. 11 MR. Ee : It says, ‘i noted that 2 they were short staffed. | | also advised 3 that Corrections Officer Thomas didn’t receive 4 the training.” So Thomas didn’t receive, I’m 15 assuming the quarterly -. 16 MR. ia: He works in 7 MR. ae : So the quarterly nother department. w 8 training? 9 MR. aa: Yeah, he works in another 20 department. 21 MR. ae : But do you still believe 22 he would have known that he was required to 23 have a cell mate? 24 MR. aa: I mean, he worked - I mean, 25 he’s got more time than me in the Bureau. EFTA00115984

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Right. MR. Ha: So, you know, but he worked in another department, you know. I can’t account for what they should or should not have done - I don’t know. MR. a : Yeah. But do you believe that as a correctional officer as well as being that the fact that that’s the (Indiscernible *01:07:16) -- MR. a: I‘ll put it to you this way. If I’m on or in Special Housing, I’m making rounds, I’m checking, I’m looking in every cell, I’m making sure that everything is up to nut. If I see something wrong, I’m going to say something, I’m going to correct it. Okay? That’s me. I was an OIC before I was a SHU Lieutenant. Okay? I was an officer first, so - and I was a damn good one and I was a damn good Lieutenant as well. So, I’m different than - well, I take the job serious. Like I said, my integrity is on the line at the end of the day. Okay? I know how this operates. I know how the Bureau operates. And that’s why the attorney said what he said. From the top down, we’re going to put everybody on notice EFTA00115985

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and I understand this is an investigation, but I was not there. I can’t account for on Monday morning quarterback, what anybody else does. Only can speak on behalf what I did. MR. a : Yep. And that’s why we’re just asking you about things that led up to it. MR. Ha: Yeah. Things that led up to - everything was done right. He was alive -- MR. : | Right. MR. Ha: -- when I was there. MR. a : And that’s -. MR. Ha: He was alive when I left. MR. QJ: But being that you’re the Lieutenant, SHU supervisor, we wanted to just know what conversations and what directions were they provided prior to you -. MR. a: Everybody was given direction. Okay? It was written, it was passed down to the OIC when I got the word. When I got the word, it was passed down and subsequently after that, it was passed down to everybody that worked. Not email, but mouth to mouth. MR. a: Okay? And it was written. So, EFTA00115986

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE oo £ when even stuff you can post this now, people ct b- ct will look a and still do whatever they MR. a : Sure. Now who wrote it, do you know? MR. a: Who wrote it? MR. a : Yeah. MR. QJ: nd did he do it for his own knowledge or did he do it so would see? MR. MR. of it was rb MR. aa: So that every Vy MR. a : -- that worked in the SHU EFTA00115987

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 ies) = i] o = 4 MR. QJ: Okay. Now when the sHu w ie] 2) =] a c a ct if] KK Oo i=] =] on iT) i} i} J oO Og Cc T rr o Cc x | | i 7] there supposed to 8 be at leaste one Lieutenant per shift that 9 oversees a round conducted in the SHU? 10 MR. a: You’re supposed to watch a 11 count, yes. 2 MR. ae : A count, not a round? WwW Fs) Y a 3} = 5 A 7 fu if) ct i} if) ° 4 MR. Ee : Okay. So, at le 15 you do it. You’re there on a day watch. Is it 16 also like on the, you know, the morning watch 7 and the night watch? 8 MR. aa: This is what happens. In SHU, 9 right, in Special Housing, every shift, every 20 Operations Lieutenant is supposed to go to 21 Special Housing and make a round. 22 MR. a : Even during day watch. 23 MR. a: Even during day watch. 24 MR. ae : And was that happening? 25 MR. QR: 9 yeah. EFTA00115988

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. a : Okay. So when you -. MR. Ha: I mean, if I’m day watch operations, I make a round. But it depends because if - it depends on who is in SHU. Like, I was the SHU Lieutenant, sometimes Ops Lieutenants didn’t come upstairs because I was upstairs. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. i: It’s my house. So, the next assigned for day watch because I was there, there SHU Lieutenant. All right? That’s what’s written, right? MR. a : te-And that’s policy? MR. i: And that’s - well, that’s what’s written. Okay? Policy comes and goes. The Captain or Warden can write - this can be policy right now because they sent this out, this is the policy. MR. QJ: | Right. MR. ia: Okay. I’m sorr MR. a : No, that’s okay. MR. Ha: They have to have a bunkie. It was posted that he had to have a bunkie. Okay? Like I said, each Lieutenant is supposed to go EFTA00115989

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 to Special Housing. This - what, for midnight 2 count, 3 o’clock count, 5 o’clock count, right, 3 and the 4 o’clock count, each shift, a 4 Lieutenant has to stand - do the count. 5 MR. a : Okay. So like, for 6 instance, on the 9th, would that mean that, so 7 for day watch, either | or im - or, no, 8 sorry, I mean || or, I guess, earlier in the 9 day would be close it or later in the day 10 | would do at leaste one count in the SHU? 11 MR. a: No. That was put later. 2 MR. ae : Oh, so it was after he 3 left? MR. a : After Epstein died. 16 MR. QM: uh-huh. Yeah. 7 MR. Ee : What about - oh, okay, so w 8 we’re talk - sorry, everything we’re talking 9 about is from the date that - August 9th and 20 August 10th where - where -. 21 MR. a: I don’t know if they went to 22 Special Housing or not. 23 MR. a : Okay. So you’re not 24 aware that - 25 MR. a: I’m not aware. I don’t know. EFTA00115990

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) fe] ios) MR. Ee : So there was nothing in place where as prior to - you’re there August o th -. MR. a: I know a Lieutenant has to go € to Special Housing every shift. MR. a : Then I’m asking that prior to August 9th, was that the policy? MR. QE: Yes. MR. QR: Okay. MR. a: Every Lieutenant - not every Lieutenant, but a Lieutenant, especially if the book says the Operations Lieutenant, has to go to Special Housing. th, whoever was like the - so there’s a 4:00 n is) per policy, on August wo p.m., there’s a 10:00 p.m., there’s a 12:00 a.m. At least one of them should have been watched by -. MR. aa: Hold on. Day watch operations wR. : | veah. MR. a: -- evening watch operations -- MR. QM: | Yeah. MR aa: -- is supposed to make rounds and morning watch operations supposed to make EFTA00115991

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 rounds in SHU. Three Lieutenants are supposed 2 to go to Special Housing. 3 MR. a : I know, but what I’m - so 4 I understand they’re supposed to go there. But 5 when they’re there, they’re actually supposed Oo to conduct a count of the -- 7 MR. QR: No. 8 MR. a : -- inmates? 9 MR. a: No. That’s the officers’ job. 10 MR. QJ: «So but that’s what we 11 just asked you and you said -- 2 wR. QR: No. 3 MR. a : -- “Yes, they were 4 required (Indiscernible *01:13:31) -- 15 MR. aa: No, I said they’re required -- 16 MR. Ee : -- (Indiscernible 7 *01:13:32).” co a | | rt Oo go to Special Housing to 9 make a round. That’s what I said. 20 MR. QJ: §=So is that round independent 21 of the rounds conducted by the SHU officers? 22 MR. a: The round is - you go up to 23 supervise the officers. You go up to Special 24 Housing. 25 MR. a : So what would -. EFTA00115992

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 w ~] MR. Ha: Now, prior to Epstein, every - like I is] aid, every Lieutenant is different. When I go up to make a round, I walk the ranges. That’s me. I can’t account for everybody else. I don’t know what they’ve done. I mean, I don’t know. MR. Ha: I wasn’t there. MR. a : So what we’re asking it, up until August 8, 2019, were Lieutenants ever required to monitor any rounds conducted in the SHU by the officers or counts? MR. Ha: Yeah, but it’s a 30 minute round thing. It’s going to say Operations on it, right? MR. QJ: Bot sC-~- MR. Ha: You have the documentation right there and it has three shifts on it, doesn’t it? Yes or no? MR. QJ: But I’m not asking if it MR. a: What are you asking me? MR. a : Listen to the question. If - is a Lieutenant required to go to the SHU and watch the officers conduct either a round EFTA00115993

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

on LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or a count? Not just visit the SHU, but are 2 they supposed to watch them actually conduct a 3 round or a count? 4 MR. a: That was implemented 5 afterwards. Oo wz a Cc * fw u oO up until August 7 9th, that wasn’t - August 8th -. 8 MR. a: We did bed bunk count 9 MR. a : So Lieutenants were not 10 actually monitoring officers do rounds or 11 counts. 2 MR. QR: 9 yeah. 3 MR. a : And there was no 4 requirement. 15 MR. aa: Because we’re required to take 16 a count. 9 MR. Ee : -- SHU staff is required 20 to take a count. 21 MR. a: It’s - no, the Lieutenant is 22 required to take either the 4:00 p.m. or the 23 10:00 p.m. count. 24 MR. a : Okay. So, on August 9th, 25 a SHU - you’re saying one of these Lieutenant, EFTA00115994

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 either the - you’re not there, so either the 2 Ops Lieutenant or the Activities Lieutenant -. 3 MR. aa: What day is August 9th? 4 Friday, right? w a August 9th is a Friday. oO a ig 2) } 7) there a SHU Lieutenant wo a oO there’s no SHU 10 Lieutenant because you’re not there. 11 MR. a: So Operations is supposed to -. MR . a : So Operation - aa: Operations or Activities was N Fs) ive) a) 4 supposed to go to SHU. from -” - and I don’t know what a BV - 0700 to oO they 0800 to 1600? 1500 or ar i) Lee) 5 aa: I don’t know whatever it possibly was there until 4:00 p.m. Yeah, it 21 looks like that. It would be, he would be 23 the fe would be there from 4:00 p.m. until midnight. MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. 22 there from 8:00 a.m. to ho No w EFTA00115995

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) No No e ) a Oo wo No No Wa OFFICIAL USE 98 MR. Ee : So would it be || that would be at that 4:00 p.m. count or would it be | that would be at the -. vR. a: a. MR. : 9 so EJ would do both and ither do r 1) re] wu 5 i) required to do -- other? have been present for one count in the SHU on MR. i: He’s required to tak count, official count. 0) rt s oO supposed MR. a: Yes. ae : What I’m asking is any to be in SHU -- EFTA00115996

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wo wo 2 MR. a: That was afterwards that they 3 put out they wanted bed bunk count in SHU, you 4 know, that was after the fact. 5 MR. a : Okay. So no Lieutenants 6 up until August 8th when you were there ever 7 had to be present for a count. 8 MR. GE: No. 9 MR a : Okay. 10 MR. a: But before this -- 11 MR. a: You said -. 2 MR. ae: -- incident happened -- GM: = vh-huh. ive) a) 15 Lieutenant during this shift had to go into the 16 SHU and do one round? Not a count, a round? 7 MR. a: Yeah. That’s - I said that. 8 MR. a : Yeah, but what he’s 9 asking is, a round as in like getting eyes on 20 the inmates or do you mean just visiting the 21 SHU? 22 MR. i: Like I said, everybody’s 23 interpretation of a round is different. I 24 cannot answer for another Lieutenant. 25 MR. QJ: Right. EFTA00115997

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. a: Only can answer for me. 2 MR. a : So how you did it. We’re 3 asking - 4 MR. a: How I did it. Now you’re 5 asking the question, how I did it. When I go 6 to Special Housing, I sign the book that I came 7 to Special Housing. I walk down the range. I 8 look at every inmate. I talk to every inmate. 9 That’s when - talked to me. 10 MR. a : That’s how you did it. 11 We’re asking policy. Does policy - did policy 2 dictate that, for instance, | should have 3 gone down during his shift and gone - did what 4 you would do? Talk to -. 15 MR. aa: Every - like I said, every-. 16 MR. Ee : I’m just - I know 7 everyone is different but does policy say they 8 have to? 9 MR. aa: No. No, it doesn’t. 20 MR. QJ: Okay. So. 21 MR. a: It just says that you have to 22 make SHU rounds. 23 MR. QM: Right. So ina -- 25 MR. a : -- SHU round, two - one EFTA00115998

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 person could be just popping in, “Everything 2 good? You’re good?” That could be somebody’s 3 interpretation -- 4 MR. a: That could be their round. of round. w wi ig | | 6 MR. a: That could be an interpretation 7 - 8 MR. : And others - another ) “Hey, I want to 10 conduct a count with you.” And another one 11 would say -- Ww N Od K ) fw ee g | - “No, I’m just going to 4 - I’m going to pop in.” t oO a Right. But policy never 7 said they needed to actually put eyes on the 8 inmates just to pop in and say, “Hi.” 9 MR. a: Yeah. Where does it say it? Show me. Because I -. 21 MR. ae : That’s what I’m asking. 22 MR. i: I don’t - I never seen it. 23 MR. a : Okay. 4 MR. aa: I never seen it. It’s not a gotcha you, ho No w bd EFTA00115999

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we're asking -. MR. QR: No. MR. a : We’re literally asking -- MR. a: I know. MR. a : -- you as the (Indiscernible *01:18:22) -. MR. a: I know because you don’t know, but I’m telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, right, after, and even before Epstein, you know, they had it - it was, we had them on the ranges so the two can physically, you know, be accurate with, you know, with what you had to write, or whatever. They’re printed sheets. Right? The dates change. Some of them are handwritten. Everybody’s interpretation of a round is different. I was an officer. I don’t forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make a round. MR. a: Does policy state what a round consists of? Can I find that in policy? MR. ia: A 30 minute round? I mean, checking on the inmates. It says in policy, inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that are in the continuous lock down situation, all right, want a—+tadiseesnible *01:19:25} to EFTA00116000

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 quote policy, are supposed to be checked on every 30 minutes. Right? And then the special policy says in Special Housing, because they are continuously locked down and technically on morning watch, everybody is supposed to go check on inmates. MR. a: That description of rounds, does that apply to a Lieutenant’s round or is that something different? MR. i: That round applies - it doesn’t say, “Lieutenant,” it just says that you’re supposed to -. MR. a : What he’s saying is that, Lieutenant rounds, they’re doing rounds with their staff members and they can choose to go in and do the inmate rounds if they want. Is a correctional officer round is doing a round of the inmates? MR. Ha: Yeah, correctional officers look at the inmates. So what you want me to do as a supervisor for eight hours is sit with the officer? MR. a : No. MR. a: No, no, no, no, no, no. I’m just saying. If it got - see everybody - I got EFTA00116001

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to go around, see everybody, make sure I don’t people - make sure people are awake because if I’m awake, you’re awake. Okay, if I’m walking around, I’m up. MR. a: We were just trying to get (Indiscernible *01:20:33). MR. Ha: No, no, no. I know. I just - I’m just - I know that’s what the policy states. But everybody, like I said, their interpretation of the policy is different, and like myself, I’m checking on inmates. Sometimes when I go in the housing unit, I want to walk down the range. But do I walk down the range of every housing unit? No. MR. a : Is it ever acceptable for, you know, even from the midnight to, you know, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or midnight until 8:00 a.m., ever acceptable for any staff in the SHU to fall asleep? MR. Ha: No, it’s not acceptable. MR. a : And it’s not acceptable even if one staff says, “I’m going to sleep, you stay awake.” MR. a: No, it’s not acceptable. MR. a: Okay. Not acceptable. EFTA00116002

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 ~] wo 10 11 Great. MR. Ha: Now, we are human. Right? So, on occasion, “Hey, get up, go take a walk.” MR. a : But if both are -- MR. Ha: Throw some water. MR. a : -- both are sitting there falling asleep together, that’s not -. MR. Ha: You know. It’s just like this. I do hospital trips. I can’t go to sleep. Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a hospital trip. So you go to sleep and you got the weapon, I’m dead. Or, we live in a world, now everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. MR. a : Yep. MR. a: So, I just - I stood the watch, I ain’t sleeping. Stood the watch. MR. QJ: Sure.) You mentioned the files that are printed out on Sundays and then you would, you know, review in the mornings -- MR. QR: 9 Uh-huh. MR. ae : -- but you weren’t the one that printed them out, on Sundays, they EFTA00116003

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 would. We received information that when Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get the file and the file didn’t really have anything in it. It’s pos- with the indication that someone may have taken those files. Do you know anything about that file being -. MR. Ha: I know that that file was there when I left. MR. a : Do you know if it had -. MR. Ha: That’s all I know. MR. a : Do you remember how many documents were in that file? MR. Ha: It was limited. MR. QJ: So it was very little? MR. i: Yeah. MR. Ee : Only a few pieces of paper then? MR. QB: 9 Yeah. MR. Ee : And was that because if he was placed in the house - the SHU on the 30th, there’s only one Sunday that went by since he was found, I guess, on a Saturday, the next - there’s only one day that would have had information in there? Would that be why it was limited? EFTA00116004

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Remember, he was in SHU from the time that he got there, right? He was taken out of SHU, he was placed with a bunkie. He tried to hang himself. He went down, he was on suicide watch. I don’t know how long he was on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch and we got that email. And I got that email, I got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. Then I heard from the Warden looking for a bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it’s not coming from me, it’s coming from the top. Okay. So I said, “All right,” so I’m here. | was still there, the Warden was still there. It was getting past my time I got to be back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when I got word, they said, “We got him a bunkie.” Spoke to | he said, “I got it.” He stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on suicide watch. I took him up to attorney conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he wanted rec or whatever. I said, “You can get rec.” Whatever he needed, and it was there EFTA00116005

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 ~] wo 10 11 from the institution, he got. Whether it was clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like everybody else, and he was afforded all the opportunities just like every other inmate. So, I don’t know what else you all want to know. MR. a : Tee—shist;So you said phone calls. So would he get phone calls when a) he was in the SHU? MR. a: He was - you’re afforded to get a phone call. MR. a : So, wherwhere wouldever you call -. MR. Ha: When the team gives you -- MR. a : Where we-getwould -. MR. Ha: -- his pin and pad number, or whatever. MR. a : Where are -we-gettineg thewould he be able to call from? MR. QR: But - huh? MR. a : Where are—gettingwould -. MR. a: On the range. He would get it on the range. MR. QJ: | Not in the SHU then? MR. QM: Yeah, in the SHU. EFTA00116006

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED co wo co OFFICIAL USE 109 into? MR. aa: Yeah, calls? That’s where you plug it plug it in -- Now, would -- -- one of the jacks. -- would they be monitored Absolutely. then like And you log book? Uh-huh. MR. QE: it would be on the computer, you All right. And then -. Put it in the log book and then w, if the call went through, whatever, and you can look at the monitored calls. Back to the file. If Uh-huh. hould that went on in the - s that have been documented in the file or placed in the file, would that all be D yy nT be be o 3 b rh b am electronically stored as EFTA00116007

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 w ~] wo 10 11 wasn’t printed out, could we -- MR. Ha: Only -. MR. a : -- after the fact go in and say, “This is what should have been in the file?” MR. a: This is what you could do. This is what you could do. You can go back and ask them for the 583 packet that was created when he first committed suicide. MR. a : We have that, sure. MR. Ha: Okay? There’s - that’s hi fs] file. As this AD order, why he was placed in SHU, right? MR. Ee : -- document the food and you document all that other stuff? MR. a: The 292s, right? If it’s not printed, it might be in the system, but once he’s removed from the system, his BOP number, I don’t know what happens after that. MR. ae : All right. So, point being is if he’s no longer in the system, then the file may no longer be in the -. MR. a: Yeah. Just like if I go into EFTA00116008

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENTRY and I will pull up his number, SENTRY would tell me that he’s deceased. MR. QM: But if he was still in the system, should all the - whatever was in -. MR. Ha: He can’t - because SENTRY and BOTLEBR-BOPWare talks, it’s live, it’s almost like live. MR. QJ: «9 ub-hun. MR. a: So the moment an inmate is moved from one housing unit to another housing unit, his picture is taken from that - he’s no longer on that housing unit no more. He’s on this housing unit. Right? And if he’s placed in SHU, the inmate picture still can be on the file, but his location will show that he’s housed in SHU. MR. ee: But will all the documents that were created in, you know, in the SHU, would they all be maintained somewhere in the system? MR. i: Well, you could go back, I don’t know how long it is, but I know that I had to pull records for an inmate that had left prior to, or whatever. If it was documented, it’s probably still there, I don’t know. EFTA00116009

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ~] ie) 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 112 Mk. QRMIJs ees 2oti28:t+Alright. MR. a: But it may be in the system. So, but that - it’s some way you got to play with the system to go back. It’s like post 292s or something like that, like when they leave. Unit team can see whatever and can pull MR. a : You had mentioned that - you were saying that Epstein was always afforded clothing and things like that. MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : So I guess in his cell, he had an abundant amount of linens and clothing in there. MR. Ha: Well, I don’t know. MR. Ee : Now who was the one who would provide the clothing? MR. a: The officers. MR. QJ: nd would they - are they supposed to maintain how much -. MR. Ha: It’s supposed to be one for one exchange. MR. ae : Okay. So, if he’s gota lot of that stuff in there, that would be EFTA00116010

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 w ~] wo 10 11 something to talk to the officers about? MR. a: Yeah. And sometimes inmates hide it, you know, under the mattress or whatever, but the officers would have to, you know, they’re supposed to shake it down, so. MR. QJ: ang that you were aware of? rr hat’s not something MR. Ha: What do you mean? MR. a : You weren’t aware that he had extra linens or clothing? MR. Ha: No, I wasn’t aware of that. wR. I: Okay. MR. Ee : What about, so we recently learned that Epstein was actually ina cell that he wasn’t assigned to when he was found. So, about six days before, I think he was moved to a different cell but they never reassigned that cell to him. MR. QM: Because the cell rotation was - they probably did cell rotations. MR. QJ: Right. MR. Ha: Moved him and his bunkie to another cell and ¢then—didn’t key it. MR. a : Now, who was responsible EFTA00116011

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 for keying it? MR. Ha: The person that did the cell rotation. MR. a : Okay. So it’s not like the Officer in Charge or the Lieutenant, it’s whoever did the cell rotation is the one that would -. MR. Ha: It’s not the Lieutenant. MR. QR: Okay. MR. a: It comes up, the next day I check it, 21 day cell rotation. Before I leave, I verify it and make sure that it’s done. MR. QJ: «So if six days before August 9th, which would put us at like, you know, August 3rd or something, he was moved but the cell was never reassigned to him. Is that something that you would have reviewed? MR. Ha: He was moved when? MR. a : We’re told six days prior, he was moved, but his - he was located in a cell that wasn’t actually assigned to him. So the assumption is that, like you said, it was a cell rotation but they never went and keyed —- you know the cell was never keyed to EFTA00116012

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 him. He was still assigned to a different cell. MR. a: I don’t know (Indiscernible *01:30:50). MR. a : All right. You don’t know? MR. QM: suh-uh. No. MR. a : Because I’m sure, as you can imagine, the conspiracy theorists out there MR. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : -- are going to say like, “Well, he wasn’t in the cell he was assigned to?” But you’re not aware of that information? MR. i: Naw. Huh-uh. MR. Ee : But yet and - whoever - is anyone in charge of the cell rotation or who is -. MR. Ha: Well, the OIC, who - you know, the day watch OIC is in charge, you know, of making sure of cell rotations and things get done. It’s printed out daily to see on the paper about cell rotations. Because the region looks at that, you know, if somebody is in the cell past 20 something days - actually, the EFTA00116013

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 Captain is supposed to review and look at that, 2 you know. 3 MR But you’re - 4 MR a: But I look at it as well -- You look at it? 6 MR. aa: -- as the w a SHU Lieutenant. 8 MR. a : And you never noticed it? a: If I’m running a roster, huh- wo F You didn’t notice that? f be a 2 MR. a: Huh-uh. Because, I’m making 3 sure he got a bunkie. That’s - if he - if it’s 4 two people in the cell, I’m - you know. ia: And I get around to checking, t oO Fs you know, it could have been a billion things tes) that I’ve been doing. 9 MR. QJ: sure. 20 MR. QM: 9 You know, I was stretched thin. 21 You can look at those rosters and see how - me, 22 I’m supposed to be the SHU Lieutenant and 23 ev worked. No a] Oo ~ wu < al 5 o w ey No wi ct ie ou t n i} EFTA00116014

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Go ahead. MR. a : No, no, no. MR. a: No. You can answer - I’1l answer. MR. a : I was just going to say, you’re stretched thin. What is your, like, primary function when you’re in there? MR. QB: When I’m in SHU? MR. a : Yeah. MR. Hi: I run the building, ++n—from SHU. To, you know, just making sure - I try to make sure that everybody is doing what they’ re supposed to do. I’m checking on these inmates myself and I’m making sure to keep this - because it’s already a stressful environment, so I’m making sure, you know, people are getting showered, you know, I’m making sure, you know, I’m trying to, you know, we didn’t have rec for a long time, you know. At that time, we had, you know, two rec officers. Sometimes our rec officers are not there, you know, and we’re all helping each other, you know. Showers was every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, you know. So we’re trying making sure inmates got, you know, hygiene and things of EFTA00116015

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 ~] wo 10 11 that nature is being taken care of. MR. a : Okay. Back to that phone call. That is authorized to let inmates in the SHU have phone calls on unrecorded lines? MR. Ha: Have to be approved by the Unit Manager. MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: And that’s only for legal calls. MR. QJ: okay. MR. Ha: And that has to be -- MR. a : (Indiscernible MR. Ha: -- you know, a request by an inmate, then approved by the Unit Manager. I don’t do unmonitored phone calls. MR. Ee : Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you said that you would allow Epstein to call from the SHU. MR. QM: No, I said, he would be afforded a phone call, right, and it would be, you know, he would have to have his pin and pad number, not an unmonitored call. I don’t do that. MR. QJ: But did he have a pin and EFTA00116016

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 pad number? 2 MR. a: I don’t know. His unit team 3 should have gave him a pin pad number. I don’t know if he had it or w a oO not. 7 MR. a : But I thought -. He never mentioned that to. wo co OD But I thought you said 10 that you would allow him -. 11 MR. a: No, I said, he would be 2 afforded. It’s a difference. 3 MR. a : Because - yeah, you 4 MR. a: Don’t switch the words. He 15 would be afforded, like everybody else that oO comes to Special Housing, they are afforded a phone call. Lee) 5 So maybe is it wording, because I had that written down too. 20 MR. MJ: «No, (indiscernible oO 21 *01:34:31) - 22 MR. a: Because I think you said it 23 too. I think that’s how -. 24 MR. a : Yeah. Because we talked 25 about it. Just, we got to make sure that we’re EFTA00116017

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 cl r on these things. 0) fu MR. 3 MR. So that’s - d 4 calling from the SHU? wi Fa] I never gave him a phone call. 7 MR. QJ: 411 right. io MR. a : Did you give this -. 10 MR. a: -- an officer give him a phone 12 MR. a : This is when we talked Epstein would want to make -- 14 MR. QR: 9 Uh-huh. 15 MR. a : -- phone calls. 16 want to have his clothing -- t Ww wu on fe) oc ct k ie] is * 3 0 i] D ho ir 1Q wy ny ho EFTA00116018

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 we talked about, what, did you just plug it 2 into the line in the SHU -- 3 MR. aa: Yeah, that’s what -- w Fs) i} i} aa wu ue] uel oO fe] U ion Cc rt oO wu ue] =a 2) 5 0) Q w es = 7 MR. QJ: 4.11 right. 8 MR. QR: Ever. And then we talked about, wo F i=) would you just log it in the book? You’d 11 monitor their call. So never - you don’t know N | ive) Fs) I never gave him a phone call. 4 All right. And the 5 gave him extra clothing? t oO a 2) rt - never gave him extra Lee) 5 All right. And you were ite] } 3 I ie pe Qo faa Hn its] a Oo ay a oO 0 tat Q o ct w 7 Oo fe) * jen Q 5 or 21 MR. a: It should have, yeah. MR. ae : It should have? Uh-huh. 24 MR. a : And at that point, they seen that there’s a lot of extr No Nm a No ion) id fu EFTA00116019

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 ~] wo 10 11 clothing and linens in there? MR. a: They shake the cells down. I’ve seen a lot of extra clothing and stuff laying on the range. MR. a: And were you ever present for any Epstein cell shake downs? MR. QR: No. MR. QR: No? MR. a: Huh-uh. Well, you know what? I was. I remember one of the officers say, m “Oh, he had this in the cell and they took it out.” Yeah. MR. a : What did he have? MR. a: I think it was an extra blanket or something like that. They took it out. MR. Ee : All right. And we he authorized to have like pills and things like that in there? Medication? MR. aa: Yes. They are authorized - Medical comes up and gives them medication. MR. ae : Are you aware of any of taf hh the "a when you weren’t present not U conducting counts and rounds -. MR. aa: Naw. Huh-uh. EFTA00116020

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ha: Not on my watch. What? MR. a: Should we - so. MR. a : Passing over to you. Sorry, do you have a question? MR. a: Okay. Yeah. Let’s say you were at work on the 9th. You’re not, but let’s just say you were at work on the 9th. taken out sometime between 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., he’s brought to court. MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a: MCC wouldn’t know the fact that, “Hey, he’s not coming back,” but somehow MR. Ha: They would know after the 5 o’clock count. Pperhaps. MR. a: Let’s just say, I’m just saying hypothetically. MR. a: Uh-huh. When the courts return. MR. QJ: 9 Let’s say between 1:00 and 2:00 p.m. -- MR. QM: uh-huh. MR. a: -- MCC is notified, “Hey, listen, he’s not coming back and he’s WAB.” MR. QJ: 9 uh-huh. EFTA00116021

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Who would have got notified? It would have came through -. MR. QR: Rap. MR. a: R&D? And R&D would have notified who? MR. i: They should have notified the AW or notified their supervisor. MR. a: Would they have notified the OIC in the SHU? MR. a: It depends on who’s the officer, I don’t know. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : But they wouldn’t be required to let the housing unit MR. a: They would -. MR. Ee : -- wheren they came from? MR. a: After the court list comes out, or whatever, the count changes on the El. If they get - if the courts kept them, or whatever, so whoever that R&D staff is, I don’t know what their protocols are, whatever, but - because it’s a whole different department but we all work together. As a Lieutenant, only way I would catch it on - probably on morning 124 EFTA00116022

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 watch or on - if I’m evening watch, when I’m doing my log and I run the 38, the daily change log, and depending on what I’m looking at, I’m going to see who’s off my base count. The morning watch Lieutenant is going to write down everybody who left the institution the prior day. MR. a: I know. But I’m asking, let’s say the notification did come between 1:00 and 2:00. MR. QR: 9 Uh-huh. MR. a: You are - let’s say you were at work -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a: -- and that notification came down to the SHU and they were notified. MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a: If you were at work, what steps would you have taken? MR. Ha: I would have called the Captain and, like, well, you know, his bunkie, you know, has left and I would have let the Captain know that we have to find him a new bunkie -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a: -- and if they would, you know, EFTA00116023

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 have somebody. MR. a: You were not at day, so -- MR. FR: No. MR. a: -- who would hav charge? Which Lieutenant would ha MR. Ha: If it’s between -. MR. QJ: | would it be Operations Lieutenant? MR. Ha: If it was between depends on - yeah. MR. a: If || was awa what should he have done? MR. i: He should have cal Housing, “Hey, this guy need a bun MR. a: Okay. And -. MR. a: But if Epstein was nobody wouldn’t have known because his attorneys. MR. a : But wouldn’t known the Special Housing Unit was that Epstein’s bunkie was being re wouldn’t that queue them in on tha Epstein returns he’s not going to 126 work that e been in ve been in the one and two, re of it, led Special kie.” downstairs, he’s with have they informed moved, t when EFTA00116024

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 w ~] bunkie? MR. a: That could have - that’s possible. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a: Now let’s say there were no notification wkheever made - let’s just go through the who process. When is the first time they would actually catch the fact that Epstein didn’t have a bunkie? MR. a: You make rounds, you make a round, “Oh, shit, you’re by yourself. Hey, but he need a bunkie.” MR. a : So any one of the 30 minute rounds. MR. i: Yeah. Uh-huh. MR. a : So 2£—-basically, if he came back at, let’s say, 7:00 p.m., by 7:30 they should have known? MR. QB: Yeah. MR. QJ: nd certainly by the 10:00 p.m. count? MR. a: Yes. Most definitely, because it depends on - all right, the attorney conference goes from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., right? Attorneys can start coming in at 8 EFTA00116025

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 o’clock in the morning. So if he’s down there, 2 let’s say he went down 10 o’clock. Right? 3 MR. QM: | uh-huh. 4 MR. QB: And 5 to 7:30 p.m., 6 to be escorted back upstairs. ~] 8 o’ clock, whatever that time. he’s down there from 10:00 Then he has Right? So after there’s no more attorney visits that 8 they’re, you know, they’re gone for the day, 9 inmate goes back, he gets stripped out, he gets 10 placed in the cell. At that time, you see he 11 doesn’t have a bunkie. 12 MR. a : Yeah, once he’s escorted 3 back into his room, right? 15 MR. a: 16 MR. QE: 4 MR. QB: Yeah. Into the cell. Uh-huh. L7 MR. ae : As soon as whoever 8 escorted him -- 9 MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. 20 MR. QJ: -— back to the cell 21 should have known, “Hey, I’m putting him back 22 ina -- 23 MR. Ha: He don’t have a bunkie. 24 MR. -- I’m putting this guy 25 back in a cell without anybody in here.” EFTA00116026

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 129 MR. a: Yeah. He doesn’t have a bunkie. MR. a : And when you escort -- MR. QR: So -. MR. a : -- somebody in the cell, you always verify who is in there. MR. a: Yeah. Because you have to open - you have to look and make sure somebody in there because the inmates have to be cuffed. MR. a: So he had to be cuffed or he should have been cuffed, placed on the range and when they crack that door, before they crack that door to make sure somebody is in there. If nobody was in there, somebody should have got the horn and, “Hey, he don’t have a bunkie.” MR. a : So, at -. MR. aa: By the 10 o’clock count, it MR. ae : And at that point if, somewhere between when he was escorted back and 10:00 p.m. -- MR. QJ: uh-huh. MR. a : -- could have a new EFTA00116027

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) co OFFICIAL USE 130 bunkie been put in there with him? MR. a: Perhaps, yeah. MR. a : Just perhaps? Not -. MR. : Or he could have been placed in MR. a : But one or the other MR. Ee : He shouldn’t have -. MR. a: If I can’t find a bunkie, he’s going in a hard cell until the morning. MR. ae : And should have th MR. ae : But should have the SHU staff known that? MR. a: No, because I don’t know if the SHU was full at that time. I don’t recall, you know, because I didn’t do a kick out list, so. MR. ae : Okay. So if there’s 72 EFTA00116028

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) co OFFICIAL USE 131 MR. a: Yeah, it’s full. And we have down cells, so. MR. a : But earlier that day it MR. a : -- or something? MR. i: Yeah, we were full. So, we had the two hard cells, well, three, because we have a suicide cell and they probably had a housing rec alone, that’s on J Tier and then you got the two hard cells on H Tier. MR. a : But regardless -- MR. QJ: Uh-huh. ple from 7:00 ».m., that would have been, it like a. he was on from 4:00 p.m. to midnight. MR. aa: Uh-huh. MR. Ee : Somebody should have notified fd or at least |g MR. a: Uh-huh, that he was by ! MR. a : And would it be one or MR. QM: Well, the Act EFTA00116029

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 Lieutenant, if they went to SHU to make rounds, 2 or whatever, one of them - somebody should have ies) known. 4 MR. a : Okay. They should have 5 notified those people. 6 MR a: Yeah. 7 MR. a : What about the next 8 shift? So Noel and Thomas are on from midnight 9 a.m. When they know during their shift 10 that he is without a cell mate, should have 11 they notified someone? 2 MR. a: Yeah. Notified our Ops ive) Lieutenant, one of them. 4 MR. Ee : So they should notifiedy, 15 in their case, FT who was the Ops 16 Lieutenant at that time. 7 MR. QR: uh-huh. Okay. And -. Lee) 5 9 MR aa: Say, “Hey, this dude is by his 20 self.” 21 MR. a : Okay. And how serious do 22 you believe that to be that they’re not making 23 notifications? 24 MR. aa: What do you mean? 25 MR. a : So, I mean, obviously EFTA00116030

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 someone died in this instance. Correct? MR. Ha: Yes. MR. a : Let’s take that out of it. MR. Ha: Yeah. MR. as : If they’re in a different situation, if they weren’t making that notification, is that serious? Is that a serious infraction of —policy or of, you know, the correctional -- MR. a : -- duty assignments? MR. a: Yeah, I mean, because, to me, I had people that tried to hang themselves and I work morning watch and I work evening watch. I’m going to check when—t-have the -+isuaton that individual and I’m making sure they good. MR. a : Sure. MR. Ha: And I’m telling everybody, “Yo, make sure you all are doing rounds because, you know, not on my watch,” and anybody will tell you, I’m known #kis—for making big rounds, what you doing? We doing big rounds, right? Rounds, rounds, rounds, and we checking on inmates in the Special Housing Unit. That’s EFTA00116031

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 w ~] wo 10 11 what I’m known for. I can’t account for anybody else, but I know me, I’m checking on the individual. MR. a : The last time you saw Epstein -- MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. QJ: -- what did you think of his state of mind? Did he seem all right? MR. a: He was a little nervous. MR. QJ: okay. MR. Ha: He was a little nervous. But, you know, he was just like, #+*s-I was like, “You all right?” “Yeah.” And he looked at me, you know. And he wanted to go to rec. Again, that morning, he took a shower on Thursday and then he went to attorney conference. MR. QJ: «Did he seem like - did he give you any kind of indication that he might be wanting to take his own life? MR. QR: 9 NSuh-uh. MR. QJ: No? MR. Ha: He just was just, you know, people have like a nervous feeling or whatever. MR. ae : Now, with a nervous, do you have any reason to believe that he did not EFTA00116032

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 1 wo wi take his own life? MR. Ha: What do you mean? MR. a : Someone else - MR. QM: No, nobody killed that man. He did it himself. Nobody killed him. MR. a : So you feel very confident about that? MR. Ha: Yeah. Nobody killed that man. MR. a : The question has got to be asked. MR. QM: yeah. Nobody killed him. Listen, all the conspiracy theories, out the window, okay? The man killed his self. Okay? It’s unfortunate that he did this and now, here we are. But, you know, that’s what cowards do, you know? But I can’t speak for him. He knows why he did what he did. MR. a : Sure. MR. Ha: But, nobody killed the man. MR. QJ: | Could the officers that were in the SHU see into Epstein’s cell from where they were seated? MR. Ha: If he’s standing at the window. MR. a : No, no, I’m sorry, from their desk area. EFTA00116033

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Yeah, if he’s standing at the window, you can -. MR. a : Oh, oh, oh, you mean if Epstein is standing at the window. MR. Ha: If Epstein is standing at the window, you can -. MR. a : But otherwise, unless you go up to the door, you can’t see. MR. i: Unless you go up to the door, NHuh-uh. You can see if a light is on. But, let me put this on record. The SHU is broken, it needs to be fixed. Okay? Inmates control the lights from the inside. Officers, they just started now putting the lights on the outside. Okay? We should be able to control the lights. We should be able to flick the lights on and look inside the cell. No inmate should be able to press a button and look inside the cell or disfigure the lights. MR. a : So you don’t have - you didn’t have the ability to actually turn the lights on inside -- MR. GR: No. MR. a : -- of their cells? MR. i: No, there was a switch, but you EFTA00116034

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 still couldn’t - the inmate can press the button and only one of the lights would come on and if that light wasn’t working, they you can’t see inside the cell unless you tell him to get up out of their bed and put that light on. Or if you have a flashlight, you know, you’re flashing it in there. But, you know, the cells are broken, man. They were supposed to then-been change the cells. You know, they had wooden doors for years, but not in SHU. You know, they just - the range, our range, they just did a couple of those doors. And some of them was even falling off the hinges. MR. QJ: Ss Was there any conversation that you recall when Epstein was there of placing him into 10 South? MR. Ha: Not that I recall. MR. a : Do you believe he should have been placed in 10 South versus the SHU? MR. Ha: I mean, he’s high-profile like they said he was. Everybody else went up there. So, you know, it was to me that he would have been more closely monitored, but that’s not my call. MR. a : And whose call is it to EFTA00116035

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 place someone in 10 South? MR. a: It’s the Warden and the Captain. MR. a : And have you ever heard that it’s actually even over their head for 10 South? MR. Ha: No. Yes. That they said all the inmates in 10 South are SAMSs inmates.and MEETS—{Phonetie Sp. 64450432), MR. ae : Right. And can you explain what SAMSs is? MR. a: Special Security Measures, something, you know, there’s - you know, their mail is handed - everything is by SIS giving stand Unit Team. te-Aa@ SHU Lieutenant. Anything that they get comes from the SHU Lieutenant because we have to keep - that’s like, you know, they are - you got to just make sure that they’re ready to stand trial. Like, I was there, you know, for Juan Guzman, I was the SHU Lieutenant, and #hat—nothing happened to him. MR. ae : What happened to him? MR. a: te+s—aNothing. EFTA00116036

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 139 MR. a: You know, he stood trial and he was gone. MR. a : Was he in 10 South? MR. MMM: Yes. And +tndiscernible 264:52:25+all the other inmates that was in 10 South under my watch. MR. a : So Monday morning quarterbacking, do you believe that Epstein should have been in 10 South then? MR. Ha: Or on G Tier. MR. Ee : That’s 10 South lower? MR. a: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Because they basically accomplish the same mission. MR. ia: Those - yeah, because those cells are hard because they’re, you know, they got plastic over the windows and everything, so if you’re going to try to do anything, you know, it’s really difficult. The shower curtains that break away or whatever. Where they can hang the towels, break away. MR. Ee : Did you ever make that suggestion to anyone? MR. a: Did I make the suggestion? MR. QM: uh-huh. EFTA00116037

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 b 5 H a fu rt s not my call. 3 ig Yeah, yeah, I know, I didn’t know if -. Ww wu. u ie + 5 MR 6 MR 7 MR. 8 MR. or 9 bathroom? 10 no, I’m go 12 MR 13 MR 15 wR. q 16 MR. QE: 17 MR ae: I’m just going to show you c fea) ct I o =] ' en 5 pp Q =n rt Q ie) Cc 3 ct | | t © id -- from August 10th. Uh-huh. | 7 | 22 MR. QJ: 9 You just take a look at that. : | a Uh-huh. That front page is called the 25 El? EFTA00116038

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No N N Wa OFFICIAL USE the you have done? MR. QE: MR. : MR. QE: MR. QE: un. : again? OB H ts) count that they taking the count, count person, count on Can you take a lo The You see there? 73. If you were the L count slip came up, I wouldn’t have too The count is wrong. And what would you have Count again. You told them to Uh-huh. there -. First, I would have called in, right? right? I’m the o okay? ok at 141 the SHU count on that? the ieutenant, what would k it. count it fficial EFTA00116039

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. Ee : There should be like the Ops Lieutenant I’m assuming? MR. a: Uh-huh. You could take - but they don’t have to take the 12 o’clock count. They could - he could take the 3:00 or the 5:00 MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: But they have to take a count. I’m different. I want to - there’s times I’m even watch operations, right? I’m taking the 10 o’clock count, I’m taking the 12 o’clock count. After the 12 o’clock count, I don’t have to worry about the count no more. I mean, I have to worry about the count, but I’m making rounds, I’m making sure everything is good. Right? But I want to know what I got. This number right here, is the number that I’m concerned about. MR. Ee : So if the Ops - MR. QM: 758 inmates. So if the ops, what? MR. ae : So if the Ops Lieutenant took that count at midnight -- MR. QJ: uh-huh. MR. a: -- should have they gone EFTA00116040

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 ~] wo 10 11 down to the SHU and witnessed the new count? MR. Ha: Naw, so it’s only if it’s a double bad. MR. a : Just a double bad. MR. a : One bad is not -. MR. QB: =f it’s a double bad. MR. a : They don’t need to get MR. Ha: Yeah. If it’s the double bad count, we got to go up with a roster, a bed book roster and we, you know, we tell our inmates, “Stand.” At night, it’s different because you’re supposed to see living, breathing flesh. So we’re not required to make everybody stand. But I’m going, I’m looking, we counting. That’s just me. MR. a : Okay. But there was no requirement based on one baek—bad count. MR. MM: Naw. If it’s a double bad, you have to go up - because sometimes they call in the wrong number. MR. QM: b-houh. MR. a: But that’s -- ave you ever heard of - EFTA00116041

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) have you -. MR. a: -- crazy. I’ve never heard. MR. a : The (Indiscernible MR. aa: You don’t have to never worry about me repeating jack. MR. QR: «No. MR. a: But this is crazy. MR. a : Now, what if the person who called count into Control said that, “Hey, I wrote down 73 on the slip, but one of our guys is out of the unit, he’s in another place, but I still counted him.” Does that make any sense to you? What if they got - MR. aa: Yes, it makes sense to me, but me 2 fs) a Control Center officer, no, it’s wrong. MR. ae : Right. And should have a MR. QJ: | -- should have Noel or Thomas known -. MR. a: You want to know what I - damn, I should not, oh my God. MR. a : But should Noel or Thomas known they shouldn’t have written 73 if they EFTA00116042

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 knew the number was 72 and one guy was somewhere else? Should have they known that the number was 72? MR. i: You only - I’m going to put it to you this way. You only write the number of number of people that you have on the housing unit. MR. a : Okay. MR. i: If you have more than the number that you have in the housing unit, that means somebody is not where they’re supposed to be. If you have less than you have on the housing unit, this tells me two things. MR. QM: what’s that? MR. i: Either -. MR. a: Say it. MR. ae : There’s nothing you can surprise us with. MR. MMM: Okay. Originally, it was 73 and that’s the count that they called in. Somebody realized, “Hey, this guy is not here. Holy shit. Oh, he has - did we key him out? Holy shit. We didn’t key him out. Oh, key that guy out.” If that guy was keyed out, let’s say, I don’t know, after 10 o’clock, 11 EFTA00116043

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 o’clock, when this was printed - this was printed at 12:35, +indiscernibie *61:57:35}the computers don’t come back up until 12:30. After 12:30 you can log on the computer and print if you want. MR. a : Does this tell you that they didn’t conduct the count and they just used the number that -. MR. a: That says a lot of things. MR. a: What does it say to you? MR. Ha: That says a lot of things. That says a lot of things. But me, as the Ops Lieutenant, I would have never accepted that. MR. QJ: «Now, if the ops Lieutenant said, “Create a new count slip and send it in,” would it make any sense that that was still attached to this? MR. a: MaybeWhat do you mean. MR. a : So if the Ops Lieutenant said, “Create a new count,” -- MR. a : -- and they did a new count and did one that said 72, would it make any sense why this one that says 73 is still attached? EFTA00116044

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE MR. shouldn’ MR. MR. MR. opportunity for someone to s ct J p. 7) 13) rt c 147 a: No. t have been there -- don’t -- ver have th 7 we showed you -- Uh-huh. -- different things, so just initial and date the top of the -- it’s just to show -- -- what it is you looked Uh-huh. Did he look at any of S going to -- wu a EFTA00116045

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 MR. a: Yeah. I looked at this. 2 MR. a: -- ask something, one more Ww ct a pe 3 Q ine fe) rs) 4 MR. a: I‘ll do it. You know. there a reason an inmate wi a Hi n 6 will be moved to R&D that late at night? 7 MR. i: Nope. 8 MR. QJ: =oIs it -. When is typically the wo F i=) latest somebody be moved to R&D? 11 MR. a: Only way that they’re going to R&D, right, if they’re going on the bus, the N ive) bus is coming. 4 MR. QJ: Right. 5 MR. aa: And that’s normally on t fea) oO QQ =) o n a Fl] it) 7 MR. a: And what time would they be oo 3 fe) 0 a rr fe) Ps) mn is] 9 MR. a: After the count and -- 21 MR. a: -- nobody is m ing. If 22 they’ re leaving at after the 12 o’clock 23 count. 24 MR. a : But buses are almost 25 around Wednesdays, correct? EFTA00116046

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED wi ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 149 MR. a: Typically, yeah. MR. a : You would have no - want to know what happened on a Friday night, Saturday morning. MR. Ha: Nope, no. Only people that leave the institution on a Saturday morning, and that’s like they come at 8 o’clock, you know, the special guys that go out in the, you know, they’re going to Saturday court. MR. Ee : Okay. So that - there’s really no excuse for that one right there. MR. QR: No. MR. a : On this (Indiscernible *02:00:20)? Okay. MR. QR: No. MR. a: Just had one more. MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a: This is the 5:00 p.m. count, I mean the 4:00 p.m. count. Can you just verify that for August 9th? MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a: If the call came in between 1:00 and 2:00 stating that Reyes - if you notice under the SHU, ZA, you see the one ede out count? EFTA00116047

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. a: If between 1:00 and 2:00 the call came in stating that Reyes is no longer going to be in the institution, if it did, should that have reflected still as one out count? MR. a: Yeah, because he’s out. MR. a: But if they said that he’s not coming back and he’s WAB. MR. QB: 9 That’s Rep. MR. a: Explain that. MR. a: R&D is Receiving and Discharge. We don’t get notified. The courts notify R&D. The Marshals notify R&D. R&D has a supervisor, right? On shift, they have officers that are on shift, so any movement, they know - would know before I would know and so they have to make the proper notifications and key in in the system. MR. a : That’s what I was going to ask you. MR. a: Yeah. MR. QJ: 9=of R&D did make that notification to the SHU and who else should they have notified to get that correct? EFTA00116048

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 MR. QM: The cmc would - if the there, Yeah. have tt you know -. What’s the CMC? Who would that be on don’t know who wa Office (Indiscernible :07) if the notification was made MR. Ha: No, they won’t be on th MR. a: Okay. MR. MM: So, like I said, R&D is total different department. The court to them. 151 cMC is - do we at a whole speaks MR. Ha: So when the courts talk to them, know, then they talk to us. if they’ re WAB or something like Normally R &D, you that, we EFTA00116049

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 wouldn’t know until you run the 38. ies) MR. a: What do you mean 38, MR. 4 MR. a : Do mind just -- wi oo K oO wu om 6 MR. a : -- with these just -- MR. a : -- putting it the co io | | F Ww am 3 oO = ct a ny rt \ I 15 MR. a : -- not only yeah. No problem. t co 5 by 4nd then on this last -- if you don’t mind just 22 initialing it and dating as well. Thank you, 23 sir. EFTA00116050

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Is there anything else you wanted -. MR. a: That’s it. MR. a : All right. So that’s all we have for you. We just wanted to know what you knew with the SHU and hopefully it wasn’t too painful. MR. QR: Naw, it wasn’t. MR. a : Anything else you want to add for the record? MR. Ha: No. I’m just - I wasn’t there. So unfortunately, what happened, happened. Everybody works different. I know there’s an investigation, but through all the conspiracy stuff, everybody, the staff that was there when they found him, they worked hard to try to revive him and save his life. But, unfortunately, you know, it turned to a sad event. But we are very well understaffed. Had we had more officers - I know everybody want to point the finger, but it’s an unfortunate thing to happen, you know? You know, a lot of things have to change in the BOP, you know, but, you know, I only can be as truthful and honest with you as I can, you know? EFTA00116051

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 w ~] ive) MR. Ee : On that note, you just made me think of one more small question. You n said that they did work hard on saving his life. Was it okay that Thomas immediately went into the cell upon seeing Epstein in the state that he was in or should have he waited? MR. a: He made a decision. MR. a : All right so was it - do you -. MR. Ha: I would have made the same decision. MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: You know, policy states that you can enter a cell if you have, you know, more staff, two or more staff. You don’t need an immediate supervisor if it’s an emergency situation. MR. QJ: 811 cight. so if somebody is telling us that, “No,” they needed to wait for a Lieutenant to come down there, that’s not correct? MR. a: No. It’s in the policy. MR. a : So you believe that it EFTA00116052

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 uw wi 1 was fine for Thomas to enter. 2 MR. a: Yeah, because I would have did 3 the same thing n w a Yes, there’s plenty of time 6 where I’ve seen something, we had enough staff, 7 “Let’s go in there,” you know, and -- 8 MR And they argued -- 9 MR fe a life 10 MR -- that it was like a 11 ruse in order to overthrow, you know, that 2 guard or something like that. 3 MR No. That’s bullshit. 4 5 s ) Ss 16 oo 5 | | = 0 o rt 7" =] rt a oO K oO o Ps ke ie) Cc K mM oO ha Fh 9 MR No 20 MR That’s what he was -. 21 MR. ae : Yeah, so I’m - Thomas 22 went in by himself if Noel is down range, he’s 23 by himself. No 5 They both on the same range? No w a K M fu a fo (2) b fal 7] a @ ~ n down, EFTA00116053

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 not with him, he goes in by himself, is that okay? MR. a: It’s one for one. And if he says it’s an emergency situation, he made a decision. MR. QJ: Right. MR. Ha: I probably would have - if I see somebody hanging, I’m making a decision. MR. QJ: sure. MR. Ha: I’m trying to save a life. MR. QM: uh-huh. MR. a: You understand? MR. a : Yeah. No, I’m only asking - yeah. MR. i: No, the policy states, you know, it’s two to one, you know, two officers to one inmate. Then they came and they said, “One to one ratio,” but they never really changed it, that’s word of mouth. But it’s always two to one, right? If you down range with me, it’s two to one. So if it’s an emergency situation and I’ve activated my body alarm, I’m a go get you. Okay? Now, who knows, he could have been faking a funk. Come in there, he came in his cell and try to EFTA00116054

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 escape. Now you got the keys, now your SHU is compromised. So it’s a judgment call. But at the end of the day, I’ve been in situations where two people in my career tried to commit suicide. I saved both of them. Okay? One was early, I think early this year, January or something or late last year. Inmate tried to kill himself. I was called upstairs. I didn’t wait. They said, “Operations to the Special Housing Unit -” I mean, Special Housing. I didn’t wait. I came upstairs ASAP. They let me in and the dude was hanging. I did my +iadiseernible*62:07+50}583, I did my notification to the Warden, right? Did they thank me? No, she sent me a personal email like three days later. You know who did it, I did, but it’s okay. I’m there for officers. I’m there to save lives. I did my job. Prior to that, I still had a guy, a young man who was in the newspaper, gang member. Okay? I saved his lift. He was hanging on J Tier ina suicide cell, tried to hangd himself. We went in there, grabbed him with enough staff and we lowered him down. After that, there was a young boy. Always had a bunkie. Who was the EFTA00116055

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ios) w wo i=) Nn ive) oO fos) wo OFFICIAL Ll SHU L exper JSE 158 oh ieutenant? Me. Okay? So ience, yes, I know. Do I talk to That’ s m wu ~ K H Yes. ay MR a : So yeah, you agree with it was okay? He made a decision. Absolutely. You know? a : All Okay. right? Anything else you want to efore we turn this thing off? Naw. EFTA00116056

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 EFTA00116057

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 CERTIFICATE hereby certify that the forego 23 EFTA00116058