10 11 12 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE # 019-010614 Ne ite) DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 13, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Suite 285 4 91301 EFTA00115744

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ies) OFFICE OF THE INSPEC OR GENERAL co co EFTA00115745

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fee) OFFICIAL USE MR. How are you? doing you And I am of Justice, DOJ/OIG you are aware, EFTA00115746

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 ies) surrounding his death. And the core of our w a 6 investigation is related to job performance 7 failure and security failure of BOP employees 8 who worked at the MCC. 9 MR. QJ: 9 okay. 10 MR a: Also, as I believe you 11 already are aware, this is a voluntary 2 interview. And you do not have to answer any 3 of our questions. 4 MR. J: 9 Right. And in addition, thi t wi a oF) 16 interview is being recorded, as all of our 7 interviews are recorded, as required under this 8 investigation. All of that okay, and do you 9 MR. a: Correct. a: EFTA00115747

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) OFFICIAL USE MR. MR. MR. MR. long mz a : m7 No. Mm-hmm. And the last are September of but it was 18, somewn Regional Dir A How long were the s '19. I think it was I don't know exactly, ere in that timeframe. EFTA00115748

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. a: So, about a year? MR. a: A year. A year and a half. MR. a: And you were the regional director in August 2019 then? MR. a: Correct. MR. a: What did your duties as regional director entail? MR. a: Oversighted of the prisons, the facilities in the northeast region. MR. a: And did this northeast region also have oversight over the MCC? That’s the Metropolitan Correctional Center. MR. a: Yes. Everything in the northeast. Including the MCC. MR. a: So, who reported to you directly from the prisons? MR. a: The warden. MR. a: Okay. When we started our investigation, we actually obtained a copy of after-action report that you were apparently off reviewing. Do you recall the after-action report, in regards to inmate Jeffrey Epstein? MR. a: You know, I completely forgot there even was one until you said there was one. EFTA00115749

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. a: Do you - and I know you forgot - do you recall being part of it, participating in that at all? MR. a : No. I don’t. The regional director wasn’t involved in the after-action. They just finalize the report. MR. a: Okay. So, you had -. Do you recall reviewing the report? MR. a: I didn't even recall there was one. So, no. MR. a: Okay. Well, some of our questions are based on the fact of the after- action report. So, I will -- MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: -- speaking to the fact that you don’t recall it, I will go passed it. MR. a: That’s fine. MR. a: And I will go through the incidents, and go through - if you recall - any part of it. MR. a: Sure. MR. a: Do you recall an incident involving Jeffrey Epstein and inmate Tartaglione on July 23rd, 2019? MR. a: I don’t recall the incident. EFTA00115750

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I know that there was a previous incident. I don't know who the cellmate was. I mean, to say I recall, that’s what I told you yesterday, for me to say I recall anything is, I don’t want to say I recall because it’s been two and a half years. To say I recall is inappropriate just to use that term, because no, I don’t recall. I don’t remember the incident. I know there was something with him and another cellmate. Whether there was an assault, or another suicide attempt. But to say I recall what it was, no, I don’t. MR. a : Okay. And the incident was basically Mr. Epstein was found with a rope around his neck. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : And he claimed that he was assaulted by inmate Tartaglione. Tartaglione claims that Epstein tried to hang himself, and Tartaglione -- MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : -- is saying they notified the C.O.s that -- mR. ER: 9 m-hon. MR. a: -- that Mr. Epstein tried to EFTA00115751

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hang himself. Does that sound like -? MR. a: That all sounds legitimate. I mean, that all sounds legitimate. Yeah. MR. a : In terms of selecting Tartaglione as Epstein’s cellmate, do you know how that selection was made? Were you involved in that? MR. a: I couldn’t say that I remember that. No. And typically, what I can say is, typically, a regional director would not be involved in the cellmate selection of any inmate. MR. a : Okay. And being that Mr. Epstein, with the high-profile status of his, do you remember if Warden | reached out to you, to discuss the cellmate assignments, anything like that with you? MR. a: I don’t recall that. No. I'm not saying he did or didn't. I just don’t recall it. I don't know why we -. I wouldn’t treat him any different than any other inmate. MR. a : Okay. And being that you don’t recall, my next question was going to be, did you provide any guidance to MCC Warden a. or BOP staff, regarding -- EFTA00115752

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 10 MR. GJ: 9 No. MR. QM: 9 -- (indiscernible *00:05:49). MR. a: I don’t even recall - I don’t reca ever discussing it understanding that following the July 23rd incident, Epstein was placed on suicide watch. Then on psychological observation. On July 30th, he was removed from suicide watch with slash psych observation, and placed back in the SHU. Is that correct? MR. a: That sounds correct. MR. a: Was your office consulted when the decision was made, being in regards to Epstein being moved back to the SHU? MR. a: Again, I can't tell you what -. I have no clue. MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a: You’ re talking two and a half years ago. MR. a: Understood. MR. QJ: 9 yeah. EFTA00115753

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Did you or your - you’re saying that it, being the two and a half years ago, you don’t recall, you yourself do not recall providing any instructions to Warden a. or to any MCC staff in regards to Epstein? You said it was (Indiscernible *00:06:52)? MR. QJ: 3No. No. I'm saying I don’t - I'm not saying whether I did or didn't - I'm saying I don’t remember that far back, whether I did or didn't. I'm not saying it didn't happen. But I'm not saying it did. Again, like I told you yesterday, for me to sit here and have a conversation about someone two and a half years ago, I can't tell you what happened because I don’t remember. MR. a : I see. I mean, being the fact that, you know, this is such a big incident, with all the press, and all the issues -- MR. a: Well, that is, I mean, that is -. I know you’re doing your job. But let’s be real. This is a political -. I mean, there was a dozen suicides that year, and I can't recall anything about the others, either. But EFTA00115754

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there is no investigation into the other ones. So, obviously -- MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : -- there is a reason they’ re investigating this one and not the others. So, for me to sit here and have an interview about a situation that was two and a half years ago, I don’t recall details about this one, but I don’t recall details about the other dozen or two dozen, either. MR. a: Okay. I see. I'm going to keep going on, and -- MR. a: That’s fine. MR. QJ: 9 -- let me know if there is any parts to this that you recall. If yes, you can provide -- MR. a: Sure. MR. a: -- did you, your office, or anyone at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, as far as you recall, receive any recalls, or was anyone contacted by the lawyers or judges, asking for Epstein to be removed from suicide watch, or psychological observation? MR. a : I don’t remember anything about that. I mean, I don't know that they EFTA00115755

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would be calling judges and lawyers. They would be calling the institution anyway, not the region. MR. a : Okay. And you haven’t heard anything about them calling the institution? MR. aa: I'm not saying they didn't. I just don’t recall that. MR. QJ: Okay. There are a few rumors that, around, stating that, hey, listen, the judge or attorneys actually reached out, asking for Epstein to be removed out of the psychological observation and placed back in the SHU. And that’s the, recently asked that question. MR. a: Okay. And it may be true. I'm not saying it’s not. I just can't sit here and tell you two and a half years ago, or two years later, whether that is true or not. MR. a: Okay. And it is our understanding that, after Epstein was placed back in the SHU, psychology recommended that Epstein be housed with a cellmate. Is that correct? MR. a : Well, that is for any inmate. So, I would say yes. EFTA00115756

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. QJ: okay. So -- MR. a: It’s, like, it’s been on -. Yeah. That’s standard procedure. MR. a : Okay. Do you know who made the decision that inmate | | | would be Epstein’s cellmate? MR. QJ: =No, I don’t. That would be a local decision at the facility. MR. a: And you also was not involved in that decision? MR. a: If they were, I wasn’t aware of it, or don’t recall it being so. MR. a: Okay. If Epstein was required to have a cellmate, who is ultimately responsible to make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of this requirement? MR. a: Who is ultimately onsible? MR. QJ: = Yeah. MR. QJ: §=1 mean, because a lot of 8 wn 'S people are responsible for that. What do you mean “ultimately”? Like, the last person in the line? MR. a: The last person in line ultimately responsible, in terms of making sure EFTA00115757

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 that ioe) we io ing the findings that were in that ' Ww kK 1) 3 i) 3 oO oO H That might don’t skip over those 15 parts in the list of -- oo 19 MR. I'm sorry. Who’s speaking? 7 20 MR. I'm sorry. This is ‘i other individual -- 24 MR. a : -- who had -- 25 MR. a: Thank EFTA00115758

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) Rr on MR. Ee : -- I just wanted to -- MR. QJ: 39 yeah. MR. QJ: No. MR. a : -- here knew -- MR. a: Appreciate it. MR. a : -- it will help you, I think, to help recall, rather than just to jump into those questions. MR. a: Okay. I apologize. I'm going to read those questions, too, because these are questions that we have on the after- action report. As Senior Special Agent a mentioned, that this might actually help jog your memory. So, let me read that out to you, some of the stuff that was put in the, information that was put in that -- MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. QJ: 9 -- after action report, and let me know if that helps. Let’s take a step back. In that email to the warden, dated post incident, “The supervisory staff attorney reported details of a conversation with inmate Epstein’s attorneys. Inmate Epstein’s EFTA00115759

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 attorneys requested he be housed in a single cell. The staff attorney stated, ‘Inmate Epstein could not be housed alone due to previous suicide attempts and gestures.’” Do you recall that? MR. aa: That was an email I sent to someone? MR. a: No, no. It was a -. It was an email that was included inside the after- action report. MR. a : Now, and I'm sorry, i. that was probably, I just meant where we were left off. Mr. | already answered, saying that it was protocol, you know, standard operating procedure, to house inmates coming off of suicide watch. MR. a: Right. Any inmate coming off of watch has a cellmate. I mean, we try to cell every inmate with a cellmate, but especially ones coming off of watch. It’s pretty routine. MR. a : Okay. And the next question that we had was, this is a notation that was made, “No notations concerning a requirement for a cellmate were entered into the SHU EFTA00115760

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 program, and subsequently available for SHU officers to reference.” What does that mean? MR. a: I'm sorry. You’re asking me a question, or are you —-- MR. a: Yeah. So, this is -- MR. QJ: 9 -- (indiscernible *00:12:03) the memo MR. QJ: 9 -- this is basically loaded inside the -. You see, it’s hard when we can't do it face to face, I could show you the after- action report. This is a note that was inside the after-action report. It was, it states as such, “No notations concerning a requirement for a cellmate were entered into the SHU program, and subsequently -- MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- available for the SHU officers to reference.” What does that mean? Like, what is the SHU? MR. a: I guess the - I don't know what they call it anymore - the computerized program they use, there is a form called a 292. I forget what the name of it is. But basically, all the information for each inmate is on that form. But that’s not necessarily EFTA00115761

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the only place. I mean, it could be in the memorandum. But yeah. The 292, again, I don't know what they - remember what they call that form. It is where it all information for each inmate in Special Housing is kept. MR. a: Is this, like, the hot list? MR. a: I'm sorry? MR. QJ: Is this referred to as the hot list, or is it something separate? Or is this something on the system? MR. a: Oh. No. That’sa-. It’s something separate. So, the hot list is the offenders who have psych concerns. I believe that is what the hot list is. If I remember. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : But the 292 is a form, basically, that lists each offender’s name, cell number, and the kind of list (Indiscernible *00:13:26). If they’ve had recreation, their meals, medical intentions, stuff like that. And there is a place in there where it could be noted that there is that requirement, but the officer would have to put it in there, after they were notified. So, it’s not the way to -. I think what you are EFTA00115762

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asking is how would leadership notify the officer’s that he has to have a cellmate. And the leadership doesn't put that stuff in there. That’s the officers, put that stuff in there. MR. a: Okay. Okay. And how would the leadership have notified? How should the leadership have notified the officers? MR. a: By email or a memo. I would hope. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: Just some formal form of communication. Then the officer could put it onto (Indiscernible *00:14:09) the 292. MR. QJ: 9 And do you recall if that notification was made, based on (Indiscernible *00:14:15)? MR. a: I remember the warden, and the captain, and the | saying that they notified down the chain. But I don’t recall seeing anything particular, like in writing, or a document, or anything. I'm not saying there is not a document there. There may be one in that report you are looking at. But -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a: -- I mean, I can't sit here 20 EFTA00115763

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL U SE 21 y, yeah, I remember the form, I remember the memo, or if I remember the email. MR. ae : Okay. And when warden, that’s Warden a. The | a. and the i. was that Skipper- Scott or | MR. a: ia. | | wasn’t even there then. I don’t think. Was she? was I think she had just -. So, : I don’t. I'm just saying in Skipper-Scott, you are referring to? have just started, sir. by programs and operations. I don’t -. I remember, and if || was just there - again, I'm assuming - I'm assuming she wasn’t in of Special Housing, h 1g just arrived. MR. a : As far as, you said that EFTA00115764

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 they would usually tell by email ora memorandum. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : Who in the SHU - when you said the staff would have entered it in the 292 - who would have been responsible for that? Would that be, like, the SHU lieutenant -- MR. a: There’s -- MR. QJ: -- or the suu omc? MR. a: -- yeah. Probably the SHU lieutenant or the OIC. MR. a : And it could be either/or, though? There’s not typically one person that would be, like, required to -? MR. a: I mean, I don’t think policy specifies which one does it. I'm not sure. I haven’t read a BOP policy in two and a half years. But I don’t recall it, ever saying who knows that information. Typically, the OIC or the lieutenant one. MR. a : But now, according to this, this note, and again, the reason, the primary reason we wanted to talk to with you is based upon this after-action report. It’s just, we had to do a number of email reviews, EFTA00115765

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and within the emails, it looked like you were involved with a lot of the, at least back and forth, with finalizing this thing. MR. a : You know, helping to coordinate it. So, with regard to that, our understanding, through talking with a lot of the staff, would be, it would be more like the hot list that would list, you know, what inmates needed to be, you know, housed with -- MR. a : -- another inmate. MR. a: So, your question was, is there a place to put it, and there is a place. You can put that on the 292. I'm not saying it has to be on there. MR. ae : Correct. MR. a: But the answer is, but the hot -. There is a hot list for psych inmates. Yes. MR. a : Right. So, yeah. So, we were just getting back to the fact that it’s in this notation, within the after-action report. The specific quote was, “No notations concerning a requirement for a cellmate were EFTA00115766

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 entered into the SHU program, and subsequently available for SHU officers to reference.” So, when they are saying the SHU program, they are referencing the 292? MR. a : Yes. Typically, that is what someone is referencing. When they say the SHU program, it’s the program that allows the staff to enter information on the 292s. MR. QJ: anc -. MR. a: But there is also a hot list that is developed by psychology services, for those inmates that have psych concerns, and restrictive housing. MR. QJ: Okay. Great. Go ahead, a. MR. a: But to sit here and say that that has to be on the 292, I can't say that that there is anywhere in writing that says that is required by policy anywhere. MR. QJ: Yeah. =No. Our specific question was just, what did it mean by SHU program? MR. a : Yeah. Okay. I gotcha. MR. a: Okay. Do you know if any plan was made on how to address the situation, EFTA00115767

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 if Epstein’s cellmate, | i. was removed as Epstein’s cellmate? MR. a: Well, I mean, any inmate requiring a cellmate is still the - whether it’s on the 292 or on the hot list - that information is still, would still be there. So, the staff and the SHU would still be required to provide a cellmate. MR. a: And what was that something that you were - I know you mentioned already you were not involved - but that is not something you were aware of, that if there was a secondary plan, hey, just in case || gets removed, there’s some actions that we need to take? MR. a : No. I mean, I do remember - I'm trying to remember if this was before or after - but I do remember that the warden had already identified a couple of people, if the cellmate was ever removed. But I can't tell you who they were, or when that conversation happened. I mean, that could have been months before. I don't know. MR. a: Okay. And you were aware that -. Has the warden spoke to you about 25 EFTA00115768

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this, or you found out later? MR. a: That’s what I'm saying. I just remembered that conversation. Whether it was before or after, I don't know. I don't remember the details of it. But I do remember having a conversation with him, at some point, whether it was before they had already identified him, or if it was after that he had said he had already identified him. That, I can't tell you, and I don’t want to put words in his mouth. MR. a: And as far as you know, there were a couple of inmates, other inmates, that he already had chosen, -- MR. a: It seems that -- MR. a: -- just in case that -? MR. a: -- yeah. He had already identified either one or two, it seems like. Whether - again -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a: -- whether that conversation was that he told me after the fact, or if he told me before. That, I can't remember. MR. a: And you don’t recall if he mentioned the names of those inmates to you, 26 EFTA00115769

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 either. Right? MR. a: He may have, but I don’t recall that. MR. a : Now, let me ask you this, sir. So, our understanding, through talking with other people, was that the captain provided a list to the warden, and the warden contacted you, and you guys kind of hashed out who should be with him. I think you were -- MR. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- you guys had, like, a list of, like, three different people. MR. a: That sounds - but I mean, I'm not saying that didn't happen - that sounds legitimate. MR. Ee : So, are you thinking that the plan was probably if there were a list of three people, if one person was selected, then one of the other two people would probably be the next person, or would there be a whole separate other conversation with regards to that? MR. a : I mean, no, I mean, I would imagine - and again, we’re just having a what- if conversation here, because I can't tell you EFTA00115770

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the details of what happened two, two anda half years ago - if he had a list of three names, it was probably an assurance that at least one of them was still there, or because it’s a jail, so people were constantly being released. As an example, if his cellmate got released that day. So, my guess is, the warden probably did have two or three names already, just in case one of them - or two of them - was released by a judge at some point. MR. a : Awesome. Thank you. MR. a: Should those names have been provided to the SHU lieutenant, or the OIC, just in case, in case JJ got removed, should they have been aware who those inmates were? MR. a: I mean, is there a requirement to? No. Because the hot list would have told them to make sure he had a cellmate. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: At that point, they would have to figure out who that cellmate would be. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : Now, I don't know if they had the names, or if it was provided to them. But EFTA00115771

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to say policy says they must be provided, that’s not written anywhere. MR. a: Okay. The after-action report. It lists that, on August 9th, at 8:00 a.m., inmate i. the cellmate, departs for court. Inmate | does not return to the institution. MR. GJ: 9 Mm-hon. MR. a: Based on your understanding, do you know if | was actually, like, actually went to court, or was he transferred out of the institution? MR. a: Well, that information was provided to me by whoever did the after-action. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: -- I mean, I don't know. Whoever actually did the leg work of the after- action, onsite, which was a team of staff I sent there, they would have looked at the documents to make that determination. MR. a : Okay. But you don’t recall, at this point, your understanding was he, did he go to court, or was he transferred? MR. a: I don’t have a clue. EFTA00115772

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Okay. a: I don’t. I don’t know. MR. a: The reason we ask is, based on what we looked at, it looks - based on our investigation - we identified that the U.S. Marshals Service had sent emails to the MCC, on August 8th, saying that || was being transferred to the GEO prison, on August 9th. MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a: And being that Epstein was required to have a cellmate, what should have happened once that notification was made, that | | was being transferred? MR. QJ: 391 think you are talking about two different departments. That information was probably sent to the Receiving and Discharge Department. Someone in R&D is not going to know whether an inmate is required to have a cellmate, or that he is even a cellmate of Epstein. MR. a: But doesn't R&D do court list, or the take out list for the day, they put an inmates name, inmate | name, along with the words WAB - With All Belongings - next to it. That’s our understanding what EFTA00115773

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 Ww 1 transpired. And they would have sent that over to the SHU. And if an inmate was -- MR. QM: st don’t -- MR. ae: -- released from -. MR. a: -- I don’t know. I don’t know how - I’ve never worked at MCC - so, I don't know how they do that there. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : That would be an internal process. MR. a: Now, if that notification was made, let’s just say that was the process, they did notify the SHU -- MR. GJ: 9 Mm-hon. MR. a: -- that an inmate was leaving, and -- MR. QJ: 9 vm-hon. MR. a : -- leaving WAB means With All Belongings. Who is responsible to make sure that Epstein had a new cellmate? MR. QJ: «on the 8th? He still hada MR. QJ: 9 0n the 8th, he had. This will be the 9th morning. MR. QJ: 90h, the day he left. EFTA00115774

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. a: The day he left. MR. a: The OIC would be. MR. MJ: 9 The OIC would be? MR. a : Whoever was in charge of SHU at the time that his cellmate was removed should be reviewing for, to find him a new cellmate. MR. a: Okay. And on the after- action report, this is quoted in there, “On August 9th, 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. officer, briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. relief, and the other two 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers of the likelihood inmate J, Register Number 85993054, would not be returning, and that inmate Epstein would require a cellmate upon returning -- mR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a: -- from attorney visit. MR. BJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate upon his return to the SHU.” MR. a: All right. So, they were notified that his cellmate wasn’t back? MR. a: Yes. He was notified that he EFTA00115775

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 would not - inmate || - would not be returning, and Epstein would require a cellmate when he returned back from his attorney visit. MR. QJ: ell, no, that’s -- MR. a: See, but he wasn’t in SHU. MR. a : -- just to clarify, a. it doesn't actually say that he wasn’t returning. It said, “The likelihood that he wasn’t returning.” So, our question more surrounds - and it sounds like you are going to point back to your investigators - but how did they know, how did they get this information? Or do you know? MR. QJ: 9 How did they get -? MR. a : So, this information that is reported in the after-action report, our investigation shows that it is inaccurate. So, we are just trying to reconcile some of this information. MR. BJ: 9 Okay. MR. a : For instance, our understanding is that, when || left the SHU, he was listed was WAB, With All Belongings. When the OIC actually escorted both Epstein and i. together, Epstein to attorney EFTA00115776

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 conference, and || to 34 Receiving and 2 Discharge, they actually had a conversation, 3 saying, don’t worry, the OIC telling them, I'm 4 going to get you a new inmate. I'm going to w get you a cellmate. 6 vR. : new ~] 8 “Yes. Make sure you get 9 And it was known, at that 10 coming back. So -- 11 MR. QJ: 9 Got it. L2 ve. 7: -- Mm-hmm. And a’ response was, I'm sorry. him a new cellmate.” that he wasn’t we're trying to 3 reconcile, because there is a lot of people 14 that are saying that inmate || went to 15 court. However, we have emails from August 16 8th, to both, two different -- 1? MR. QJ: 9 Right. 8 MR. a : -- emails from the 9 Marshals Service. One that went to just 20 Receiving and Discharge, and another that went 21 to a number of people in the institution, 22 including all of the lieutenants. 23 MR. : ae: 24 MR. 25 August 8th, Mm-hmm. and it went that, And that happened on within it, it EFTA00115777

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Wo wi 1 said that he was being transferred to GEO. 2 MR. QJ: 9 Mm-hon. 3 MR. a : So, our question just 4 kind of was, with regard to this specific 5 point, if you knew how they obtained that 6 information. And then, the second part of that 7 would be, on August 8th, with the people that 8 did receive this information, that was actually 9 part of custody and not Receiving and Discharge 10 -- 11 MR. J: 9 vm-hon.. 2 MR. a : -- should have -- MR. QJ: = Yeah. 4 MR. ae : -- should have they taken ive) 15 any action, and if so, what actions should have 16 they taken? 7 MR. ae: Well, one, I don't know where 8 they got that information. I would assume -. 9 I mean, other than the actual report, there is 20 attachments of documents with that, correct? 21 MR. QJ: swith the -. Yeah. So -- 22 MR. QJ: 9 Okay. 23 MR. QM: -- «well, with the -- 24 MR. QJ: 9 -- (indiscernible *00:27:00). 25 MR. a : -- with the after-action EFTA00115778

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Lo fen) 1 report? No. We did not have any -- ies) w 6 have 7 MR. : Okay. MR. a : -- and a lot of the 9 points after it co “Because we didn't “” 10 video, we weren’t to 1gs with video, yerify t 11 and because -- -- we didn't have -- t ioe) a) -- this, I mean, and had a limited kind F F ts] fe] OD ry o I be | | | | 8 o fw an be he 1) He k rh kK | | N RB Fs 1 1 some of No 5 5 -- (Indiscernible *00:27:2 23 positive, this turned into such a large scale 24 investigation with the OIG and the 25 were limited on what they could do. They had EFTA00115779

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 limited access, unfortunately. So, their investigation was (Indiscernible *00:27:31). Their after-action review was pretty limited. Based on their access to a lot of stuff, I would imagine. I'm sorry. The other part you asked was? MR. a : So, yeah. The first part MR. MJ: §9 (indiscernible *00:27:42). MR. a : -- and again, the, kind of the reason why we are doing this is, one) to find out if we are missing anything; and two) we just don’t want to totally contradict the BOP report -- MR. a: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : -- and to see if, like, hey, where it’s, like, let - we wanted to say - let’s talk to the regional director at least to see if he knew anything. Like, did he learn anything after, maybe, this report was finalized, or if maybe if he can help us kind of, like, at least clear up how some of this could have, you know -- MR. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a: -- the discrepancies EFTA00115780

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ies) OFFICIAL USE taken place. that, we -. was my question? track of my own train o Hold on. Now, wo o But the follow up to I’ve even lost thought. wi aw Somehow, I think, if I 6 remember, you hing about all the lieutenants were aware that he was leaving the oO AJ Correct. when should they nN 5 Go back -- ive) a) Oo a] | Going back to t fea) Fs) 2) w K -- email -- But I don’t remember two and Lee) 5 9 a half years ago, but I do remember what you 20 just asked (Indiscernible *00:28:36). Yeah. No Nm a (Indiscernible *00:28:37). 23 So, you are ying they were all aware the 9th 24 and the day before Well, we’re not -- EFTA00115781

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) lo \o MR. a: That he was -. MR. a : -- we're not saying necessarily they were aware. We’re saying that we have emails saying that they received an email from the Marshals Service, and within that email was an attachment that said that he was being transferred. MR. aa: Okay. MR. a : So, based upon, you know, all of the lieutenants, and other custody staff receiving that email, should have they known that he was being transferred, based upon -- MR. a: The day before? MR. ae : -- the day before, on August 8th. Correct. MR. a: No. Not necessarily. I mean, that changes - especially in a detention center - that changes hourly. I mean, they could have showed up that morning to pick up everybody and said, oh, disregard on -. I'm sorry. What did you say the other inmates name was? MR. a : Yeah, they could have -- EFTA00115782

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 2 MR. a: -- the Marshals could have 3 shown up that morning and said || is not 4 going, and changed the intake, or the - I don’t 5 even remember what they call those forms 6 anymore - discharge form. So, to make plans 7 the day before, I mean, if you want to go above 8 and beyond, sure. But is there a requirement 9 to? No. The requirement is that he had a 10 cellmate. He had a cellmate until the next 11 day. And technically, he wasn’t even in the 2 SHU, because you said he was at, with his 3 lawyer, right? 4 MR. ae : Right. So, he was with his lawyer up until, you know, that nighttime. w 16 Probably about 7:00 p.m. -- 7 MR. QJ: 9 Right. 8 MR. a : -- and that’s been a lot 9 of people’s excuses -- 21 MR. ae : -- saying that, hey, we 22 had until -- 23 MR. QJ: 9 Right. 24 MR. a : -- 7:00 p.m. to get him 25 there, but -- EFTA00115783

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LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE 41 MR. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a : -- our investigation is kind of, you know, revealed that they knew - and when I say “they,” I mean at least the OIC MR. QJ: «Right. MR. a : -- and -. MR. aa: Yeah. Once he was actually, technically, once he was removed from SHU, they knew he was removed and transferred, yeah, then someone should have started taking action at that point. MR. a : And then, or a lot of these people are saying, well, we didn't know if he was technically going to return because he went to court. But we’ve learned that, at least institutionally, and I don’t know if this is a BOP -- MR. QJ: «Right. MR. QJ: -- thing or not. But when it’s listed as, “With All Belongings,” that means, at least at the MCC, that they are leaving -- MR. QM: -- the cc, they will be EFTA00115784

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 -. And then, it says, it says pre-removed on the PP-38. So, it is showing -- mR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. a : -- that they are actually being removed from the institution. They are not expected to come back. MR. QJ: 9 yeah. MR. a : By any means. MR. a: With All Belongings is a local lingo. And that is an internal thing. So, that is not really a technical, Umm, term. It would be - like you said - if it said transferred, that’s one thing. If it says for court, that would be another thing. Well, it just depends on how that is coded on there. With All Belongings, that doesn't - I mean, I’ve never even heard that term before. So -- MR. a : No, that’s good that -- MR. a: -- in 28 years. MR. QJ: -- no, that’s great to know. But are you familiar with, like, the PP- 38s, though? MR. a: It’s been a while. I mean, I remember some of it. But it’s been a little while. EFTA00115785

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 43 MR. a: What was his -- explained to us that pre-remove means that he you know, the MR. Ee : And he wasn’t going to be ye wrote WAB, -- good to know that is - -- that is an MCC thing, spoke to said, yes, we knew WAB means he wasn’t 3) coming back. EFTA00115786

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 w ~] wo 10 11 locally, then yes, they probably should have started making a decision at that point. MR. a : All right. And then, going back to who was ultimately responsible, at least, it sounds like the OIC? Especially since the OIC said he knew he was WAB. He is the one -- MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. a : -- who really should have started that process? MR. a: He should have at least reached out to the SHU lieutenant and made them aware of it, then they would have started that process. MR. a : And this is where it becomes convoluted, and a little - because the SHU lieutenant wasn’t there that day. mR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. Ee : So then, you know, then it is, like, all right, should he have told the activities -- MR. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a : -- lieutenant, the operations lieutenant? Should he have gone straight -- EFTA00115787

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 45 MR. a : Everybody has a supervisor. MR. a : Right. So, who would have been his direct -- upervisor? Would it be the activities, ops, or -? MR. a : It would be the - I mean, he has two, really - activit lieutenant, operations lieutenant, would be his direct. MR. a: Really, the operations lieutenant would be his direct supervisor. Activities, really, isn’t a direct supervisor. So. he should MR. QM: 11 right. have notified them, and then, they should hav - I'm assuming -- MR a: And that would have probably got -- ae : -- notified -- m7 MR hat probably would rt a : -- the captain. EFTA00115788

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 w ~] ive) on MR. QJ: 9 -- the ball rolling, at that point. MR. QJ: Okay. And if they didn't, so, if they also knew. So, let’s say there is this individual named Carlos Perez, MR. a : -- he also knew that | | was Epstein’s cellmate, and that || did leave the institution. But he is the one who said - and this is what lines up what your 1) after-action report said - that m7 went to court, and he didn't know if he was coming back or not. MR. RJ: 9 So, did he -- MR. ae : He also said that he -- MR. a: -- I'm sorry. It may be in there because he was, he may have told the after-action team that, and that might be why it’s in there. MR. ae : Okay. And so, they probably got it based upon those interviews. MR. a: Yeah. It could have been just simply an interview. For the reason. EFTA00115789

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. So, I think the warden would probably be more appropriate to speak with the specific WAB term, then, because our understanding is that the operations lieutenant would have had that production list, that would have listed im as WAB. So, him saying that he knew that -- MR. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a : -- he was leaving, if he saw the WAB, he should have known, well, he wasn’t coming back. MR. a: Right. Yeah. If that’s what they use it for, and he was aware of it, then yes. I agree. MR. a : Okay. And you think that would be more of an operations lieutenant thing and not an activities lieutenant? MR. a: Yeah. Operations. I mean, they both work together, but operations is responsible for the shift, and the activities is just kind of responsible for going around and reviewing documents, and policy, and you know, just kind of make sure everybody is doing their job, so to speak. MR. a: Okay. Great. And what EFTA00115790

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 is your thought of the fact that -. So, Perez, who was the operations lieutenant, he knew this information, but he didn't pass it along to his relieving operations lieutenant, who was Mr. Cannata. Do you think that would, that is pretty problematic, the fact that he said that he knew m7 was gone, but didn't know if he was, or wasn’t coming back? Should have he notified his relief? MR. a: On the day of? MR. a : Correct. On the 9th. MR. a: That - yeah, I agree - that’s -. I mean, if knew that, he is telling us he knew that he needed a cellmate, and he was aware of it, and they hadn’t had anybody by the end of his shift, he should have passed that onto his relief. MR. a : Okay. Sounds great. All right, a. Back to you. MR. MJ: Is there anything else on that topic? Because I think the next topic jumps. MR. a : No. I think that we are onto the next topic. MR. a: Hey, Mr. a. before I go EFTA00115791

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 forward -- MR. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a: -- you mentioned that the after-action team, that they might have got the information from Perez. Do you know if they did any interviews? MR. a: I don't know what -- MR. QJ: §39 (Indiscernible *00:35:41). MR. a: -- I mean, without looking at the actual report, and the documents that he used, I couldn’t tell you. MR. a: Okay. No problem. MR. a: Yeah. I mean, I haven’t seen that thing since whatever the date of it is. I never looked at it again after that day. MR. a: Understood. I'm going to go ahead and jump into the next topic. What is your understanding of what happened with the MCC cameras, and why they weren’t recording in the SHU on August 9th and 10th? MR. a: My understanding was the, what they call the DVRs, the recording devices, were not operating properly. MR. QB: okay. MR. a: But I don't know, I mean, I EFTA00115792

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 don’t know - still don’t know - the end result because I know they were still trying to - what’s the word? - retrieve some of the data off of, because it’s digital, it’s not tapes. So, the last I heard, before I retired, or not before I retired, it’s the last I heard right after the incident, I know, I think the FBI or you guys, somebody had the recorders, and kept trying to see what they could recover from them, but I don’t know the end result of that. So, I don’t, I really don’t know even what footage they got. MR. a : Okay. Well, based on our investigation, we’ve learned that the MCC, SIS Lieutenant a. and the || || became aware on August 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC cameras were not recording. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: They contacted the Comtech, H, «|». «22k they had also notified Captain m7 a. that the cameras were not working. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: Are you aware if this is accurate? EFTA00115793

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: I'm not. I mean, if they were, they became aware on the August 8th, and they reported it on August 8th? MR. a : Is this the first time you’re hearing about this, that this notification was made and the cameras were not working on August 8th, the day before the incident? MR. QJ: = mean, I don’t recall it. I'm not saying it wasn’t told to me after the incident with it. Been told to me on August 8th. That would be anything to report. But was I made aware after the fact? I don't know. I can't remember that. MR. QJ: Okay. Were you or your office notified about the cameras not working at the MCC, prior to August 10th, 2019? MR. a: You would have to go back in the work orders and look at that. I have no clue. I mean, you are talking 19 facilities, and you get calls every day. It’s not the only place that we had to replace cameras in. So. MR. a : Well, let me be specific. Were you aware if the MCC cameras were scheduled to be replaced? MR. a: I don’t know. EFTA00115794

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. a: Okay. Well, based off of work orders, and the email communications that we've reviewed, the MCC ordered new cameras and DVRs and system parts, and to have them delivered to the MCC in approximately October 2018. These were -- MR. QJ: «11 right. MR. a: -- the cameras that were installed immediately after Epstein’s death. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: In August 2019. Is that accurate? MR. a: Sounds good. I mean, I don't know. MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a: It sounds -. If you are saying that’s documented, then it is. MR. a: Yeah, well, based on what we found out, it looks like, it sounds like the system had a history of failure. MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a: And based on that prior year, based on that -- MR. a: Wait, you’re saying they had already requested and received the EFTA00115795

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 replacements, then? MR. a: Yes. And it was sitting -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a : -- there since October 2018. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a: Yeah. I mean, that sounds legit. I don’t get -. The Regional Director is not involved in that detail, I mean, that was something that the facilities Comtech, or the facilities administrator would have looked it. We would have made a decision based on need. So, it sounds like we did the right thing and got them what they needed. MR. Yeah. Now, you said who would have been responsible, the facilities manager, and -? MR. a: So, if they needed the cameras, and they sent up a request, it would come up through the facilities officer in the region, and then up through the central office, and then, they would send out the money, which sounds like they did. MR. a: Okay. And then, did you see, it says 2018 -- EFTA00115796

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Yes. MR. a: -- a year before -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a : -- they actually had it sitting -- MR. aa: Yeah. MR. a : -- they had everything sitting there -- MR. Okay. MR. -- at (Indiscernible *00:39:38), they already had it sitting there, but when should have the new camera system have been installed? MR. QJ: =o mean, I'm not a Comtech. I don't know the -. I don't know if there were parts that they still needed. I don't know. I mean, there is a lot of questions, leading questions there for me to ask before I say when they should be installed. Just because they showed up today doesn't mean they could be installed tomorrow. Now, a year later sounds a little extreme. But again, I don't know if they had run conduit. They needed to buy wire. If they didn’t have a Comtech. There is a million questions to ask before when should be EFTA00115797

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LIMITED w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 OFFICIAL USE wo w installed. MR. a: Well, based on our conversations with SigNet and you, do you know who SigNet is? MR. QJ: No. MR. a: The company that works as -. That is the company that services the camera system for the MCC. MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a: And the techs out there, the last time we spoke with them, they said that all the parts were already ordered, and -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a: -- they were just waiting on a phone call from the representatives at -. MR. a: Yeah. I'm not saying they shouldn’t have been installed. I'm saying I don’t know because I don’t know all the details of the situation of that work order. If they had everything in place, and they had all the wires run -- MR. a: Yeah. MR. a: -- I think it would have been installed long before that incident. MR. a: And that was my question. EFTA00115798

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Due to the fact that there was a history of failure with the DVR, with the camera system, and the fact that they had a replacement system already waiting -- MR. a : Yeah. MR. QJ: 9 -- (indiscernible *00:40:58) some kind of priority -? MR. QJ: Now, without knowing the details, yes. I mean, without knowing the unknown, if there was something there I'm not aware of, but there is nothing there that I am not aware of, yes, I would think it should be installed by that point. Unless there is some unusual circumstance that I'm just, you know, I don't know about, at this point. MR. a: And based on your experience, if that everything was there at the MCC, who would have been responsible to make sure the new system was installed? MR. a: The facilities manager, supervisors, that would be communications tech does the actual work. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : And they would have to coordinate that, also, with the captain. So, EFTA00115799

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ~J] uw to take cameras down, so they would have to coordinate with the captain if there was areas that were shut down for short periods of time, stuff so far were circumstance, like that. MR. MR. And based on what you told me Uh-huh. -- you’ re no you sai ere ' t, y d th lot of variables, but if all the parts there, MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. and everything was available -- Yeah. Without -- -- (Indiscernible *00:41:58). -- yeah, without -- (Indiscernible *00:41:58). -- without some very unusual that is, I don't know why they wouldn’t have been installed at that point. to explain it is, MR. SigNet, this they were incident. MR. took the cameras. MR. I see. Well, the other way based on a conversation with there a couple of days after Yeah. Mr. Epstein, after the FBI Yeah. EFTA00115800

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: And they were able to set up all the cameras. MR. a: So, that sounds like they could have been installed at that time. Again, I don’t want to put words in people’s mouths, because I'm not there to say, you know, that they installed them. That, you know, was the Comtech there? Did they have a Comtech? There is a lot of questions to answer, not being onsite. I don’t know why they would not be installed, is what I'm saying. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: And it sounds like they should have been. But if there is some information I’m not aware of that could lead to them not being installed, I'm not aware of that information. MR. a: Based on what we have found out, and you asked, in terms, you know, we (Indiscernible *00:42:52), but our understanding is, the system actually stopped recording as of July 29th. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: And so, there is no recordings in the system. So, there was - the EFTA00115801

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE wo ite) cameras were not recording. And on August 8th, ike Lieutenant | and || | | tried to review video footage. rt bh ie) oO * a) bh Mm-hmm. MR. a: And they realized they -- they told Com Tech a. and supposedly also told Captain a. However, the system was not fixed. And when, ou after the incident happened on August 10th -- Hmm. MR. a: -- the question was, how come stem wasn’t fixed? If everything was Right. -- they were notified on the how important is it for the camera system to work at a prison facility? You’ re asking me that? a: mR. QR: ves. a: Oh, I mean, I think this EFTA00115802

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 incident explains it all. Honestly, they are extremely important. I mean, there was a time in the Bureau we didn't have cameras. Honestly, there were no cameras in the institutions. But now that we have them, we’ve come to rely on them for everything. To say how important it is, I mean, there is not a document that says somewhere that they will be here, they will be there. That’s, you know, the facility decides where they need them at, and then, they are approved up the chain from there, but they are an important part of our security, because basically, they are reviewed any time there is any incident. So, whether there is a fight, assault, accusations of sexual assault, you name it, any kind of significant event, the first thing the facility does is pull all the cameras, in those areas, and reviews it. MR. a: And just to clarify, I mean, based on what our knowledge is, it looks like you could live view the cameras, but none of it was recording. Now, being that they found out on August 8th that the cameras were not recording. EFTA00115803

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a: Should they have made a (Indiscernible *00:44:48) a few days, one to two days to fix it, or should it have been fixed immediately? MR. aa: I mean, it would have been a priority, yes. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: One or two days, I don’t think that is a long period. I mean, if I was a warden and my Comtech came to me and says, hey, the cameras on this range are not working, I would tell them to get them fixed. Now, if it has been a week later, and they are still not fixed, I would probably ask why. But if it is not fixed the next day, you know, I'm giving them time to work on it first. I don’t know what the problem is. And the wardens at the facilities are not Comtech experts, and not experts in communication equipment. So, to say, you know, you got the next two hours to get it fixed, that seems to be extreme. If it has been a while, that is probably a question of why is it -? Why -? I guess my answer would be, if it has been a couple days, they EFTA00115804

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 should at fu wi bas ct y 0] O) ct fu rt Cc a) Oo fh b ct wu rt ct a fu rt N ‘do is) pe =] rt Ww a] be ) i] ts) rt oO ~ wu ket Understood. a. 4 do you have any other questions on the cameras? wi aw Nope. 6 MR. ae: Okay. I'm going to move on 7 to the next topic. On the r-action report, 8 there was a summary for August 9th, 2019. “At 9 7:00 p.m., Epstein was 10 by the institution duty officer. This would 1 have been” -- 2 MR. ive) a) 4 MR On what day now? 5 MR This is on August 9th, 2019. f Co 5 This the day before Epstein was -- Lee) 5 wo 5 xs om wy J No nN I 2) ie] ini 6 om Qo rt No 5 p.m., Epstein was 25 provided w fs] fa) a hs fw al call by the institution duty EFTA00115805

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 officer. This call was done on an unmonitored line. MR. QJ: 9 m-hon. MR. a : It is extremely concerning why this call would have been placed, and why it would be done on an unmonitored line. MR. QJ: 9 vm-hon. MR. a: Without further interviews, it is not possible to determine the reason for this call.” Why is it extremely concerning? MR. a: Because all inmate phone calls are recorded. So, why would an employee go on their own and provide a phone call to an offender that is not on the inmate system? I forget what they call that system, but on the inmate telephone system. MR. a: Okay. So, I will give you a basic understanding of what -- MR. a: And they probably, I'm assuming, they didn’t interview the person that gave the call because of the OIG investigation. MR. a: Okay. MR. QJ: 39 (Indiscernible *00:47:14) MR. QR: «nc J» veah. MR. a: And does the report suggest EFTA00115806

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 they didn’t interview him, right? 2 MR. a: Yeah. It says they didn't do 3 the interview. But we were able to interview 4 the person, and this is what our understanding 5 was of what transpired. oO a Mm-hmm. 7 MR. a : That on Augu y before Epstein was found dead -- t 9th, that is Les] ct sr oO oh fw het wn wo F Mm-hmm. 10 MR. a: -- “Epstein made a request to 11 the MCC unit manager, PI -- 2 MR. QJ: 9 r-hon. -- and provided him with the ive) Fs) t wi a Okay. t oO a So, that he - so that Epstein 7 - could call his mother. 8 MR. a : Okay. 9 MR. a : | checked Epstein’s 20 pack and PIN and found out that it was not set 21 up yet. Therefore, | took Epstein to a 22 shower area in the SHU, and plugged a phone 23 into the legal line. mm dialed the 24 number, a man answered, he handed the phone to 25 Epstein, and then Fs left for the day. EFTA00115807

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. a: Okay. MR. a: Fs stated that the SHU C.O.s were around, and he did not specifically instruct anyone of them to monitor the phone call. Instead -- MR. QJ: «okay. MR. a: -- he called the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein after his allotted time.” Do you recall hearing about this prior, or is this the first time you are hearing about this? MR. a: The only thing I heard is what you just, was in the report. All of that is new. MR. QJ: okay. So -- MR. a: What I should say is, as I’ve been saying, is I don’t recall hearing that, but that sounds like something I hadn’t heard before. MR. a: Okay. So, a couple things that stood out to us is the fact that, you know, the phone call. He asked -- MR. QM: = Yeah. MR. a: -- to speak with his mother, EFTA00115808

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and the phone was plugged into the legal line, there was no -. Are inmates allowed to make phone calls on the legal line? Are they ever given an opportunity on the -? MR. a : For legal calls. He was -. How long had he been there? His - I mean, I don’t have access to this - I'm assuming he has made previous calls, and his PIN number would have been issued to him the day he arrived. MR. a: So, that is the thing, we found out that, the pack and PIN was never set up. Because he was always in attorney conference. MR. QJ: 0h. He never set it up because he was never in there during the time to do it. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: So, | allowed him to make the phone call on the legal line, and we were told, sometimes people make phone calls on the legal line, but you would have a correctional officer sitting next to them, and then monitor the phone call. MR. a: Yeah. Someone should have EFTA00115809

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 been there. Especially the fact that it wasn’t a legal call. So, someone should have been there. Honestly, it should have been done on a speaker phone, since it wasn’t a legal call. And it should have been in a log somewhere. I mean, I'm not saying it wasn’t logged, but there should be some record of that call. MR. a: So, we were told by the captain that he instructed, he had a conversation in regards to this, with a. and he told | to log it and monitor the call. MR. a: Which what I just -- MR. QJ: 9 (Indiscernible *00:49:52). MR. a: -- exactly what I just told you. MR. a: Yeah. But there was no log kept about it, and there was no one monitored the call. MR. QJ: Yeah. Yeah. MR. a: But | made the phone call. Epstein had to say that he wanted to speak to his mother, except his mother was deceased. MR. QJ: 9 Abn. EFTA00115810

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: So, now, and the person who picked up was a male that picked up the phone. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : And the phone was handed off. How -? Is this a serious concern, or the safety, and a sign of a safety violation? MR. a: Yeah. I mean, you described the situation. We don't know what happened on that phone call. It could have potentially led to the incident, but we don’t, we will never know. Yeah. All inmate phone calls are supposed to be monitored. And I believe - and I could be completely wrong - but I believe every Special Housing has a monitored phone that is not - that doesn’t require a PIN for that purpose. Now, I could be completely wrong. MR. QJ: «= (indiscernible *00:50:52). MR. QJ: 9yveah. It seems I recall - and again, I have been out of the game for a long time - but it seems like they were requiring all of the Special Housings to have a phone, and you would have to check with the central office on this, but it seems like every Special Housing was required to have a phone, EFTA00115811

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that could be monitored, that was recorded, but did not require the PIN, and that is why I said the log, because it seems like they had to have a log in there. It was for incidents like that, where the phone system is not working, or MR. a : Yeah. MR. a: -- they don’t have access to it. And it was more of a family emergency. Now, I could be completely off. I could be wrong. But it seems like there was something in place that there could be monitored calls done when not using the inmate PIN, in the Special Housing. MR. a: You said it was required. Is this policy? If you recall. MR. a: Again, I'm telling you something that I believe to be accurate, but it was two and a half years ago. MR. a: Understood. MR. a: And it could be simply something and it does, seems legit in my head and it’s not. But -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a: -- I seem to recall that EFTA00115812

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 there was always, in the Special Housing Units, a phone in an office that could be recorded, that was not part of the inmate telephone system. MR. a: Who would be the best person for me to get information, in regards to that? MR. a: Oh, I don’t even know who works in the Bureau anymore. Probably the head, the correctional services administrator in the central office. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: Whoever that might be now. I have no clue. MR. QJ: Okay. =I appreciate that. MR. a: And I think the assistant director of that division is still | | WSs (Phonetic Sp. *00:52:32), but I don't know that he is still there or not. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: Again, that could be completely inaccurate, but - and I'm just going back to, when I was a warden, before a regional director, and it seems like I had a phone in the Special Housing that they could use for those type of phone calls. For recording when EFTA00115813

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 an inmate didn't have access to his PIN for some reason. But that could be completely off, too. I can't remember now. MR. a : Understood. MR. a: But going back to your question. Yes, that would be concerning because all phone calls should be recorded, or at least monitored, that are not legal calls. MR. a: What could happen if a call like that is not monitored? I understand if Epstein, but if other inmates were allowed to make the same type of phone call. MR. a: Mm-hmm. Anything could. I mean, you name it, it could happen. I mean, stake plots (Phonetic Sp. *00:53:21), drug deals. I mean, anything that shouldn’t be -- MR. a: Understood. MR. a: -- happening in the prison could be happening on the phone call. MR. BJ: okay. [EL you got anything else on the -? MR. ae : No. MR. a: Okay. Mr. a. do you know anything about Epstein changing his will prior to his death? EFTA00115814

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 MR. ae: No. Not really. I mean, if 2 somebody mentioned it after the fact, I may 3 have, but I don’t recall that conversation with 4 anybody wi aw oO u o “ rt ue] R p. oO ial ine o a Pp uo QQ oO wu cr a N Fs Ww es) Mn ie) that is rumors we heard. = iething we heard. 5 know -. We believe that it happened, but we r oy rt K ct oO Lee) 5 wo came from. 22 MR Yeah 23 MR Do you know anything about 24 that information? 25 MR. a: Do I know what? EFTA00115815

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 MR. a: Do you know, do you recall 2 how you learned about that information, that he 3 changed his will? 4 MR. a: I don’t remember even if I -. 5 You are saying, do I remember someone telling 6 it to me. I don't know that I even know that. 7 Okay 8 MR. : That doesn't sound familiar, 9 it didn't. 10 kay 11 there something in the 2 changed it? 3 That is a separate 4 question that we had. It is not in the after - 5 . I mean, aa. is that in the after-action? 16 MR Ee : Not that I recall. So, 7 did you -- 8 MR. a : Gotcha 9 MR. Ee : -- had you heard about 20 this, and you are saying you never heard about 21 this Is that right? 22 MR. a: I don’t remember hearing 23 about it. No 24 MR. a : Okay. No. That’s fine. w = ie] wu 5 3 ° 0 2) 5 No EFTA00115816

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 2 MR. a: Okay. During our investigation, we reviewed -- 4 MR. QJ: 9 vn-hon. -- a number of emails. We ies) w a oO ie] wm 3 oO wu a H Oo ifs n one email from you to Warden 8 MR. | : Okay. Dated August 10th, 2019. The wo F 10 email reads - this is the day that he was found 11 - and Epstein was found, it la to 72 between 12:00 a.m. N c 2) c o rt change from 3 Do you recall this email? 4 No. 5 Do you recall if there was an 16 incident, there was an issue with the count? 7 MR. QJ: 9 Not really. Les] 5 | I ju rr oF wu te wo a3 No. Was there a count 20 incident that night, too? 21 MR. ae: This is August 10th. So, 22 this is the morning of. This is between - 23 yeah So, Epstein -- 24 mR. QM: = Yeah. EFTA00115817

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 August 9th. Epstein was allowed to make a phone call that night, on August 9th. He was placed back in his cell. And he was found on August 10th, Saturday morning -- MR. QJ: 9 vn-hon. MR. a: -- at approximately 6:30 a.m. MR. QJ: 9 vm-hon. MR. a: So, when he was found, this is the day. On the day of that, you send an email out, asking why the count, from midnight, ~) wi between 12:00 a.m. and 3:00 a.m. on August 10th MR. QJ: 9 vm-hon. MR. QJ: 9 -- why did the count change from MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: Do you recall there being an issue with the count? MR. a: I mean, honestly, if I sent an email, there was. But I don’t recall why sent it, or what I saw to make me send it. MR. QJ: Okay. Well -. MR. a: I mean, on that day, as you can imagine, that day was pretty hectic. So, asking the, I mean, I probably sent a million EFTA00115818

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 emails that day. MR. a: Okay. Do you -. What did you learn with regard to the activities of the MCC SHU counts and rounds on August 3th and 10th. In 2019. MR. aa: I couldn't begin to guess what I learned on that day. I have no clue. MR. a: Okay. Do you recall there afterwards, do you recall any, knowing that there was any issues with the rounds or the counts that were conducted? MR. a: On the day of? MR. a : On the day of. MR. QJ: well, I think we found they didn't do the rounds. MR. a: That would be the overnight counts. The overnight rounds. Right? MR. a: Right. The night that he - whatever time he committed suicide. I mean, I think part of that was finding they didn't do rounds. MR. a : Okay. Were you aware that, aware of the SHU counts and rounds, were or were not conducted by the SHU staff on August 9th and 10th? So, I'm now asking about both EFTA00115819

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE U 1 days. 2 MR. QM: «well, no. (Indiscernible *00:57:10). ies) a w Oo oo BOD 7 roy I | | o a wu Oo rt H ~ o a) Kh # 5 oO 2 aware that they learned that the rounds weren’t 3 conducted Do you know how that information 4 came about? How did you guys learn t the 5 rounds were not conducted? oO MR. a: I couldn’t begin to gue wasn’t aware of that. Lee) 5 Okay. 9 MR. a: I mean, that is -. I mean, I 20 have no -. You are asking me how did I learn 21 something two and fu iam w bh Hh he oO w ini io) w a Oo w f=] Q wu +t 22 particular date, or who told me. I -. 23 MR. a : No. And the reason -- I think the whole world -. No 5 EFTA00115820

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : -- the problem, the reason is, again, with this email review, it was just, this email came up from you to the warden, and just saying what happened with the counts. But there was, he obviously, you guys must have spoken about it afterwards, because there is no response from him. So, the -- MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a : -- follow up would be that, like, he probably got on the phone with, and probably explained it to you. MR. a: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I’m assuming. I probably talked to him a thousand times that day. So. MR. a : Totally. MR. a: Yeah, yeah. MR. ae : So, and one of the points, within the after-action report, was that it was discovered that rounds and counts were not conducted. So -- MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. ae : -- the question to you is just if you recalled what the conversation you had, if any, with the warden, with regards to the counts, and if you know how it was learned EFTA00115821

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LIMITED w ~] ive) OFFICIAL USE ~) wo that these counts and rounds were in fact not conducted. MR. a: I really don’t -. I mean, I mean, I don’t even want to begin to guess. Probably, they sent me the counts for the night before, because it would be something that I would have asked for. In an incident like that. Something pretty routine to request. And I was probably looking at them, and noticed that something changed. I don't know which counts you said -- MR. QJ: sell, it did. So -- MR. a: -- it would have been, like, (Indiscernible *00:58:42). MR. a : -- so, as background on the lieutenant’s log, it shows that there were os) 73 inmates assigned to the SHU at 11:59 -- MR. a: Oh, see, I was -- MR. Ee : -- p.m. MR. EJ: 9 -- looking at the lieutenant’s logs. MR. ae : Probably. And then -- MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. a : -- at 12:00 a.m., it shows that there is only EFTA00115822

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 w ~] ive) MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a : -- there is a change from MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a : -- from one day to the next, showing 73 -- MR. a: A change in the log. MR. QJ: -- to 72. MR. a: So, what that would be is if I saw the 73 at the beginning of the log, and if I saw 72 at the end, I would have went through each line in the log to see where the change was. So, it must have not been put in the log somewhere, what the change was. MR. a : Yeah. And we, and most of these questions, we know the answers to. We are just trying - again, we don’t want to jump to a conclusion of maybe you know something that we, you know, we don’t. So, we just wanted to know if you -- MR. QJ: «9 vm-hon. MR. ae : -- if you had any recollection of what the response was, or if the warden, or whomever was able to provide you any additional information with regard to that. EFTA00115823

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LIMITED Ww w wo Ww its) OFFICIAL USE 81 But it sounds like -- MR. J: 9 Mm-hon. MR. a : -- you can't recall. MR. MR. can on now. MR. MR. about MR. ae: Because this is a lot now. MR. going to MR. people t probably going to be waiting on me soon. MR. Ee : Yeah. Absolutel 20 minut Would that be MR. a : All right. of the other things that was in the after- the next, EFTA00115824

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B82 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 action report, it shows that the institution duty officers. Now, what is an institutional duty officer? What -? MR. a : The institutional duty officer. So, it’s a supervisor. I need to walk out. I want to make sure there is nobody in here. So, the institution duty officer is a supervisor. Typically, the department head, and they just are at the facility at non-duty hours. So, typically, they stay until 8:00 or 9:00 at night during the week, and they are there on the weekends. And just kind of monitor the operations of the facility. On behalf of the warden. MR. a : Okay. So -- MR. a: And yeah. They (Indiscernible *01:00:49). MR. a : -- so, are they -. MR. a: They just kind of report what they saw or heard during the weekend. MR. a : So, is an IDO something different than, like, the operations lieutenant or the i. or -? MR. QM: = Yeah. EFTA00115825

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : It’s a totally different MR. a : Yeah. So, the operations -. Yeah. The duty officer is more the eyes and ears of the warden when the warden is not there. MR. QJ: Okay. And it say, “IDOs do not routinely visit SHU each day, as required by the institution supplement,” and then, it gives a number. It says, “Additionally, the IDO reports consistently document the condition of SHU as satisfactory when observations have shown the SHU to be less than satisfactory.” So, our main question there was just, who was this IDO that you are referring to? So, that is an actual position title? MR. a: Yes. No, no, no. Each department head, typically it’s, at facilities, in every facilities in there, there’s somewhere that will have a list of positions that require you to cover as the IDO. So, like, your education department head, your food service administrator, your unit managers. Those are EFTA00115826

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 all department heads. And so, they have to rotate through the duty officer schedule. And say, I want to say it is a Tuesday to Tuesday schedule. In most facilities. And so, they come in Tuesday afternoon. They will stay until 9 o’clock each night. And they work straight through to the next Tuesday. And just kind of reporting to the warden if there is any concerns. If any incidents happened at the institution. The duty officers want it, reports it to the warden. That kind of stuff. MR. a : Great. So, we will have to -- MR. QJ: Yeah. It is an -- MR. a : -- talk to the warden. MR. a: -- it is an assignment that comes around. It usually comes around maybe two or three times a year. To each department head. MR. a : Okay. So, this transitions to lieutenant rounds. We have been hearing different things about what a lieutenant round actually entails. Do you know if -- MR. a: Yeah. EFTA00115827

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- when a lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU, are they required to conduct a round of the actual inmates themselves, or does a lieutenant round just consist of them checking in with the SHU staff officers to make sure everything is okay? MR. a: You say required? I don't know what the policy specifically says. The expectation is they should be doing rounds on every range, because they are supposed to be monitoring the facility itself. So, how are they going to know what’s happening if they don’t go down range? MR. QM: Sure. So, the expectation would be that a lieutenant is actually conducting a round the same way that a staff member would be conducting a round? MR. a: Not necessarily the same way. They are not doing cell by cell, you know, counts and stuff like that. But they should be going up and down the range, checking on inmates. I'm not, you know, I'm not going to say they are going to expect them to stop at every cell and talk to every inmate. But they should be going down range, and if inmates EFTA00115828

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 holler at them, 2 stop in 3 that is 4 MR w and check on most lieutenants need something, them from time Now, and that 86 or they to time, is what telling us, but we have a 6 select few that are trying to tell us that, no, 7 lieutenants aren’t required to do that. Alla 8 lieutenant is supposed to do is to make sure 9 that the staff members are okay, and that they 10 have everything that they need. Do you think 11 that that is 12 un. : 13 poor to average lieutenant, then. Okay. Yeah. I would say it’s a pretty z » And then, let me see, 17 what is this purpose for? 18 MR. want to check on the 19 officer, because they can just call them. They 20 don’t have to go down and see if they are okay. 21 MR. QM: Right. Exactly. So, I 22 guess that is the good point. They 23 call on 24 MR. Right. 25 MR. a: -- the phone, could just they EFTA00115829

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 wouldn’t have to actually do that. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : Do you know if, when they sign, like, there is a - on their round sheets - there is, like, a lieutenants’ signature. And it says that they conducted the round in the SHU. Do you think that that, then, means that they actually conducted a round, going down range? MR. a: It means actually going - yeah - to me, that means actually doing rounds. MR. a : Okay. MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. QM: 4.11 right. MR. a: And there have been, and I will tell you, there have been lieutenants in the past that have got significant discipline for having the logbooks brought to the lieutenants office, because they wouldn’t even go to the units. For that very reason. They have to go to the location and actually look around, and see what is going on, to make sure everything is okay. MR. a : Okay. Great. a. I'm going to skip ahead. I'm going to skip EFTA00115830

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 some of this since we’re on -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a : -- tough on time. Let’s see. So, here is one. So, we have a, there was a timeline in the after-action report. And this is the actual incident itself. It says, “On August 10th, 2019, at 6:33 a.m., a body alarm is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU staff reported that Epstein was unresponsive in his cell.” It says, “Sentry does not reflect this accurately. Staff entered the cell and attempted to wake inmate Epstein. Control center announced a medical emergency, and CPR was initiated.” It says, “At 7:36 a.m., inmate Epstein was pronounced dead by the emergency room physician.” Do you know - and this is where we get a confusing information - do you know if Epstein showed any signs of life between 6:33 a.m., when he was found, until 7:36, when he was pronounced dead? MR. a: No. I don’t. I don’t recall ever hearing anything about his status between the time that they found him to the time they pronounced him. MR. a: Now, is there any EFTA00115831

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unofficial policy, saying that an inmate can't or shouldn’t be pronounced dead at the institution? Because that just causes problems, and you should always wait to get to the hospital? MR. aa: I mean, there is, you hear those rumors. I mean, I remember when I was an officer, and no inmates dies in prison type of thing. But no, I mean, you try to resuscitate, but there have been inmates, from time to time, very rarely, that are pronounced inside the facility. And typically, what happens in that situation is the rescue squad arrives. They start, you know, resuscitation or whatever, and they determine that this person has expired, they will call the, you know, whatever is required at that jurisdiction, the a. and the | will pronounce them, based on the information provided from the rescue squad. I'm not sure what the requirement is in New York on that. MR. a : Okay. Now, going on in the report, it says - this is after the timeline - it says, “SHU has multiple cells equipped with video recording capability. EFTA00115832

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Inmate Epstein was not housed in one of these cells. And there appears to be no set guidance on when to utilize these cells.” Do you know if Epstein should have been placed in one of these cells, with the -? MR. aa: No. Those cells should not even have existed. Those were left over from 9/11. After 9/11, when they started bringing in all the terrorists. There is actually requirements not to have those areas recorded because it’s a PREA violation. So, most facilities only have one or two cells that will have a camera. And that is typically only for an inmate who may be placed in four-point restraints, for continuous monitoring. Or ina suicide watch cell. But just for general cells, that facility just had a lot of them because they were never removed after 9/11. MR. QJ: «411 right. So, the fact that this says this in the after-action report, you kind of disagree with that? MR. a: The fact that it was, I mean, the fact that it was available, could they have used it? Sure. But is it required? No. MR. QJ: «411 right. And do you EFTA00115833

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 believe that it should not have been utilized? It just sounds like it shouldn’t, because you said, it sounded like there was some violations, the only reason they are there for, like, more like terroristic things. MR. aa: Well, I'm sorry. What does it say again? MR. QJ: | the specific point says, “SHU has multiple cells equipped with video recording capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in one of these cells, and there appears to be no set guidance on when to utilize these cells.” MR. J: 9 Right. MR. a : So, it doesn't really say anything, but it is addressed in your after- action report. MR. a: And the reason is because they were there. And the reason of that, they did the investigation for me, was aware they were there. And basically just saying is, you got this, this technology, you need to have something in writing about when and how you can use it. And since, it is not saying they should have used it. EFTA00115834

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : No. And that’s right. MR. a: (Indiscernible *01:09:05). MR. a : And that’s where my question to you, should have they? MR. a : I don’t think so because, especially, you know, unfortunately, with who he was, and the kind of money he has, he could have used that against us. For violating some kind of privacy right or something. And so, that is why, typically, those cells are not used. In very rare instances they are used. And I don’t even think they exist now. I think they were removed some time later. Or disconnected. But I think his point was, you have them, you need to have something in writing saying how they are used. MR. ae : Okay. So, this is going to be my last thing, because you’ve got to run, and this is, I'm going to read you kind of a more, it’s a whole paragraph, so it’s a little bit of a lengthy. So, just bear with me, if you don’t mind. MR. a : Sure. MR. a : This is from the after- action report. It says, “He was also an inmate EFTA00115835

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 who had risk factors for a 7] io] n ault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. MR. J: 9 Mrn-hom. MR. a : Although these issues were noted, well-documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in a cell alone. MR. QJ: Right. MR. a : Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds -- MR. EJ: 0 r-hon. MR. ae : -- of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate.” MR. a: Correct. MR. a : The report then continues. “It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned cellmate. MR. QJ: 9 vm-hon.. MR. a : The captain personally instructed the lieutenants, individually. A mass email was distributed by psychology. And EFTA00115836

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it is apparent some SHU officers were aware. Although many people acknowledged this is an important fact, ultimately, the final staff responsible did not ensure the requirement was met. Including vital directives, such as cellmate requirements, and a mass email, does not ensure those who truly need that information do in fact receive it timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was actually placed with a cellmate when removed from psychology observation. After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, ora fail safe system, established to ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate going forward.” Did you follow all that? MR. a : Yeah. I did. MR. ae : It seems like that’s your kind of ultimate conclusion, or the - not yours personally -- MR. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a : -- but I mean, like, the after-action sounds like -- MR. QJ: §9=Right. MR. a : -- the ultimate conclusion there was, hey, if he actually had a EFTA00115837

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ite] wi 1 cellmate, this would have much less -. This ies) a Unlikely. 4 MR. a : -- wouldn’t -- That less likely happened. 6 MR. a : -- correct. And is that w a 9 MR a : -- what your kind of 10 overall understanding -- 11 MR. ae: Yeah 2 MR. a : -- of the after-action 3 was? 4 MR. a: I mean, yeah, that is the 5 Bureau’s stance on that is, with any suicide, 16 is the chances of suicide are much more 7 diminished when they have a cellmate. Doesn’t 8 mean it’s not going to happen, because it has 9 happened. But it is less likely that that 20 would be the outcome. 21 MR. ae : So, and on, I know that 22 that is a really, there is a lot of different 23 ways you can answer this question, but, like -- 24 mR. ER: 9 m-hon. ultimatel in this No w i] i} i @ Ke EFTA00115838

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 case, from what you recall, and from just what we've talked about today, who ultimately was responsible for making sure that that -? I mean, I know we talked about the OIC -- MR. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a : -- is the one who knew -. MR. a: I mean, and to conclude your investigation. MR. a : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just mean, because, I mean, the OIC knew he was WAB. That Ops Lieutenant is saying that he knew he was gone. But just didn't know he wasn’t coming back. But then, that Ops Lieutenant didn't provide that information -- MR. a: Yeah. (Indiscernible *01:12:38). MR. ae : -- to the -. MR. a: From what you told me, what conversation we’ve had for the last hour, and the information you provided me, it sounds like, one) that a lieutenant, at some point, I don't know which one, or how many, failed to follow up on the information they had; and two) it sounds like an OIC on one or multiple shifts failed to follow up, as well. EFTA00115839

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re) ~ LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. Ee : Now, and that sounds like 2 what we are in agreement to. I just didn't ies) know, well, you know -- we wanted to ask the wi md a | | 6 question, being that you are the regional 7 director. You were the -- 8 MR. QJ: 9 Right. 9 MR. a : -- regional director at 10 the time. To see if, like, you agreed -- 11 MR. QJ: 9 Right. 2 MR. QM: -- with that. That it 3 sounds like it was a failure of the OIC, as 4 well as of the lieutenant. Not to pass it -- 15 MR. QJ: 9 veah. 16 MR. Ee : -- up to the captain or 7 to his relieving shift. 8 MR. a : Yeah. I mean, especially if, 9 you told me that the lieutenant was made aware 20 of it that day, that he was relieved and moved 21 out. Then it sounds like there should have 22 been some steps started, at that point. 23 MR. a : All right. Great. So, 24 would you, from what you know, think that, you 25 know, if the counts and rounds weren’t EFTA00115840

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 w ~] wo 10 11 conducted, as well as the Epstein not being housed with a cellmate, those would be the two ct most contributing factors of the reason why he MR. a: Oh, those are. MR. QJ: -- died? MR. a: Those are. Other than others I may not know, the not doing your rounds, not doing your counts, and not putting a cellmate in with him, those are definitely the two things that led to this. MR. a : Great. And then, my - sorry, I did say that was my last question - my I guess final, overall conclusion, or overall question would be, do you know, is there any reason to believe that Epstein didn’t take his own life? MR. a: I have no information or reason to believe that. No. MR. QJ: 411 right. Great. a. do you have anything further? MR. QJ: No. That’s it. MR. a : I can't thank you enough for taking the time -- MR. QJ: 9 Okay. EFTA00115841

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE wo to MR. Ee : -- we know you are -- MR. a : -- doing this on your personal -. helpful, but this then, and -- MR. a : No. You’re -- intentionally tried to I tried. I after all that happened. MR. I know. I totally understand. We can't thank you enough. this stuff, we would I hear enough of it on to hear it from other EFTA00115842

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 people. 2 MR. QR: «Richt. [EBB is the 3 case agent, so if you have anything, you know, 4 you can go through him, or if you need to a get 5 hold of me -- oO es) 2) a w 7 MR. a : -- you can go through him. co wo F And just, I was going to tell 10 you, so, a. as I mentioned to you, my 11 phone doesn't take calls from any number that 2 is not in my contacts. So, I did -- ive) Fs) Right. 4 MR. a: -- I did add your cell number t uw ct o | Ke Q ie) 5 ct wu aQ ct a) t oO a Okay. 7 MR. ae: But that is the only number co that it will come through. oO a3 Understood. Okay. Because, 20 you know what? My number is blocked when I -. 21 Automatically blocked. So, if I have to reach 22 out to you, I know that it’s got to be 23 unblocked before I give you a call. 24 MR. a : Okay. Not a problem. 25 MR. a : Thank you very much, sir. EFTA00115843

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. a: Thank you. (Indiscernible 4 MR. a : Enjoy your dinner. 5 MR. a: All right. Thanks, guy 8 MR. a : It is currently 6:25 p.m. on October 13th, 2021, and the interview has wo i=) concluded. N ive) oO co ho No w EFTA00115844

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Bucarcn. Pose Eat Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00115845