1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 4, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES , Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 : ia recorder is on. My name is , and I’m a Senior Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office, and these are my credentials. This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons employee IN is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General investigation. Today’s date is August 4, 2021, and the time is 9:24 a.m. This interview is being conducted at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, known as the MCC, located in New York, New York. Also present is D0J/OIG Special Agent Do you want to show him your credentials? MR. : Thank you. MR. :_ This interview will be recorded by me, SS\ MMM. Could everyone please identify themselves for the record and spell your last name? To start, again, I am D0J/OIG Senior Special Agent J I am D0J/OIC Special Agent APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: And you, sir? I am Correctional Counselor Correctional Counselor? Yes, sir. And what did you say hat? Nine? MR. + (S-9, MR. : GS-9. Great. Thank you, sir. This is an official DOJ/OIC investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the surrounding circumstances, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the D0J/OIG? :_ Yes. : Thank you, sir. We have a form, it's the DOJ/OIG form 3-226/2. It's the United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation EFTA00114414

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wonnu wre is being conducted, pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there’s a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me." If you want to take a second to look at that, if you agree with it, you can, there’s an employee signature where you would sign, and then you would print your name under here, where it says employee's name. Thank you, sir, for signing. Do you understand the form? wR. MM: Yes. current home address? . i: PS, sayite, New York, 11709. WR. RM: | And your current cellphone number? MR. : : MR. | And what is your current position again? MR. : Correctional Counselor. MR. : And how long have you been in that position? MR. : Since February 2020. MR. : Okay. And what were you prior to that? MR. :__A Lieutenant. MR. : Great. Were you previously interviewed under this investigation? MR. :_ Yes. MR. : All right. Awesome. I'm just going to review the report that was generated, based upon your interview. I’m going to go kind of, a little slower through it, so that you can actually grasp and understand what it is that they wrote. I just MR. QR: Thank you. Al] right. The date and time, Wednesday, August -- MR. : Fourth. MR. : -- 4, 2021, and the time is 9:26 a.m. now. So, 8/4/21, at 9:26 a.m. Place: MCC, New York. I am-signing as the top line. Once again, this is ' and printing below. Special Agent , can you just sign as a witness and then put your name below? Thank you. WR. MM: This is Agent HM. I'm signing as a witness and printing my name. WR. GM: «9 Al] right. So, before we start the interview, I would like to place you under oath. Mr. a, can you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MR. :_ Yes, MR. : Thank you, sir. What is your date of birth? MR. : , MR. :__And your SSN? MR. Thank you. And your want to make sure that everything that they wrote is accurate. + Uh-huh. . And just stop me if anything is not accurate. MR. Okay. MR. : All right. It says, “The following interview was conducted ” Assistant United States Attorney, AUSA, MENS. MNS | 20° 1ce of the Inspector General, Special Agent Jl —, Also present for the interview was Federal Bureau of Investigation Special Agent 7 ,” and it says your date of birth, “was interviewed at the United States Attorney's Office, i New York, New York. After being advised of the nature of the interview, and the identities of the interviewing AUSA and Special Agents, rovided the following information.” stated he worked for the Bureau of Prisons, BOP, since approximately January 15, 2001." wR. ME: Yes. rm) EFTA00114415

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MR. oa “Prior to employment with the BOP, worked for the Building and Maintenance Union, the Marine Corps Reserve, and the New York Police Department Auxiliary.” MR. : Yes. MR. : “BERR stated he joined the BOP as a Correctional Officer and was promoted to Lieutenant in October 2015.” MR. : Yes. MR. : “He spent one year at the Federal Correctional Institution, Fort Dix, when he first joined the BOP and had spent the remainder of his tenure at the Metropolitan Correctional Center.” MR. : Yes. MR, fz. “Captain was his supervisor.” MR. :_ Yes. MR. : Who is your supervisor now? WR. QR: Right now, it’s HN. (Phonetic Sp. *00:06:15) He's my Unit Manager. WR. QR: «Okay. “WI stated a GS-9 Lieutenant’s responsibilities depend other. WR. MM: Okay. But if I was to actually look at that daily schedule -- WR. WM: «I believe it would show 4 to 12, or actually, if it was activities, Activities Lieutenants at that time were 6 to 2 and 2 to 10. Operations Lieutenants were on the 8 to 4, 4 to 12, 12 to 8 rotation. MR. : Okay. I see what you're saying. So, there’s no actual two hour change, when you’re looking at an Activities Lieutenant? MR. : Yeah, no. MR. : It is what the actual daily assigned roster said? MR. : It is what the time, yeah. I forgot what the, it’s been a while. I forgot the shift_number. WR. QM: “Absolutely. But, so, the Activities and the Ops Lieutenant were working the same hours? WR. ME: They wil, they piggyback, but let's say, like, the 2 p.m. Activities Lieutenant, I would be here on the, still under the Day Watch Lieutenant, and then the Evening 9 10 largely on which area of the prison he or she was assigned to, which rotated on a quarterly basis.” MR. 1 Yes, MR. : “Those duties include operations, activities, solitary housing, special investigations, and administration, as well as possible collateral duties, such as emergency protection.” MR. : Emergency preparedness. Same thing. MR. : Okay. Preparedness? MR. : It would be the EPO is what the = MR. : Sure. I understand. “BRB stated he was assigned as the Activities Lieutenant at the time of the interview, and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift.” Yes. And then on the daily schedule, it actually listed 4 to 12, correct? You just came in two hours early? WR. QM: Well, what lieutenants were doing, we always did two hour reliefs for each 12 Watch Lieutenant would roll in, if they're going by 8 to 4. Cause I, as an Evening Watch Activities Lieutenant, I worked 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. But if, like, if the Day Watch Lieutenant was still there 8 to 4, I would be working two hours with him or her. WR. MM: Yeah, so, I guess what I'm asking is, I thought at this time, in August of 2019, they were allowing the Ops Lieutenants to come in two -- WR. WM: We were. hour reliefs for each other. MR. QM: «So, you were actually working the same hours? Same hours. Okay. Yes, sir. Great. So, you were, both On and Activities were 2 to 10 at the . : Yes. . : Perfect. . : Well, I think that’s what I was assigned to. I can’t recall 100%. WR. MMM: «Sure. And these are -- We were doing two EFTA00114416

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wonnu wre . | I got interviewed. MR. : Sure. So, I’m going to give you, right now, the daily assignment rosters for both Friday, August 9, 2019, and Saturday, August 10, 2019. . + Uh-huh. . : It's just so that, if it helps you refresh your memory, cause we're talking about so long ago. All right. _ stated he was assigned as the Activities Lieutenant at the time of the interview and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift. His regular days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, on occasion, work overtime hours or switch shifts with other officers.” MR. QM: Wait, I’m sorry. Can you read that_again? I apologize. MR. a. Absolutely. Okay. So, after the 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift, which we just discussed. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : It says, “His regular days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, on occasion, work overtime hours or switch an officer acting as Activities. MR. a. Okay. So, then, people could switch, that were officers? yk. MMM. No. Only, a lieutenant can't switch with an officer to fill a post. They can backfill, if there’s, a lieutenant If a lieutenant is not there. Okay. So you can’t -- : They can use a GS -- -- you can’t ask an 8, say, hey, can you switch with me? It's only if calls in sick. WR. QM: No. Like, as an Activities Lieutenant, I would have to call in sick to the Captain. If I wanted a shift off, I could switch with another officer. I can’t necessarily switch with an 8 officer. MR. a. Okay. And looking at this daily assignment roster, I’m assuming you noticed that you were actually Ops Lieutenant? MR. : Yes. I was Evening Watch Operations the night before. MR. a. On August 9th? And then BBM was actually an 8, Acting Lieutenant? MR. MM: Yeah, she was a GS-8 won nu wre shifts with other officers.” WR. MM: |We're not officers. lieutenants. WR. QM: «that’s probably what they (Indiscernible *00:09:11). 1 Okay. So, switched shifts with other lieutenants, to be able to fill in for the Activities Lieutenant, is what you're saying? WR. MM: Yeah. Or, a lot of the times, we got mandated to stay. MR. —. Right. But only lieutenants could actually fill those positions, is what you're saying? MR. : Yeah. Only, well, a lieutenant, only a lieutenant can fill an Operations Lieutenant. MR. : Correct. MR. : You could have a GS-8 Officer cover as an Activities Lieutenant. MR. : Okay. MR. : Cause, like, that Friday evening, the night before, I was Operations and I had an 8 as my Activities Lieutenant. I had . : Okay. . : She was my Activities that night. WR. MM: «1 got you. All right. “As there were no Activity Lieutenants assigned during the overnight hours, he had no relief officers.” I don’t know why they would have wrote that sentence in there. So, I’m going to read this paragraph again, just to help clarify this. = stated he was assigned as the Activities Lieutenant at the time of the interview and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift.” Again, on Friday, August 9, you were actually the Ops Lieutenant and was the Activities Lieutenant. It says, “His regular days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, on occasion, work overtime hours or switch shifts with other lieutenants.” And in this case, again, you explained -- MR. Uh-huh. MR. : -+ that you can’t actually switch with lieutenants, only if you get bumped and that position is filled, can an We're EFTA00114417

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— row OHM wre a a ee ern We} a = WN SO © oo nm w 8 officer -- MR. Yes. MR. And then it says, “As there were no Activity Lieutenants assigned during the overnight hours, he had no relief officers.” You weren't doing overnight? MR. No. I got relieved and went home that_evening. MR. as. I’m not exactly, were you doing overtime shifts for the morning watch? Is that why they would have wrote that? MR. It could possibly be. I mean, we worked overtime shifts constantly. At one point in time, we were short-staffed lieutenants like you wouldn’t believe. We were filling this building with five or six lieutenants, we were running the whole building. That's one of the reasons why I became a counselor. I was never home. MR. Okay. So that is a little confusing. What it’s trying to say, though, is that if you're the Ops Lieutenant, on the morning watch, there is no Activities Lieutenant? wR. HE: No. Yeah, that, no. 19 MR. QM: «So what is the definition of a lieutenant_round? MR. A lieutenant round? Well, in the Special Housing or general pop? MR. Let's talk just Special Housing. WR. WEB: Okay. Special Housing, one, the lieutenant walks through the 27 door, that’s the outer door of the SHU. Sign in, in the log book. Go in, go, sit down on the computer, login, do the True Scope rounds. Got to enter your rounds in SHU. Go up to 10 South. Make the rounds up there. Same thing. Enter the information in True Scope. MR. So, when you go into 9 South, though, and you're entering in that you conducted a round, what does the round entail? MR. Well, making sure that the officers are doing their job. And like I said, if time permits, if you can, you know, do it, go down the range. Go one range, two ranges, three ranges. MR. a. And that’s where, so, this is where we have gotten, some people are saying they had to do, in order to conduct an won nu wre 18 There's only an Activities Lieutenant until 10 p.m, WR. SE: Right. “HE stated the responsibilities of an Activities Lieutenant include making rounds and placing inmates in Special Housing. During rounds, they ensure officers are properly carrying out their job responsibilities and give the inmates the opportunity to address with them any concerns. — stated he often attempted to walk all the tiers, based on time.” So, on this, we have heard different things from different people. As an Ops Lieutenant, or an Activities Lieutenant, are you required to go into the SHU, and I’m talking specifically at this time, so August 9th, August 10th of 2019. Was a lieutenant, or a SHU lieutenant, was a lieutenant responsible to go to the SHU and walk the tiers and do a round with the inmates? MR. : With the inmates? . : Yeah. So -- . : Well, a lieutenant is supposed to, is mandatory, supposed to make rounds. 20 actual round, you have to actually walk the tiers. Do you know that to be the case? MR. : Well, yeah. Cause the officer has to let you down range. NR. Okay. MR. : The officer has the grill Nobody could just go down range in SHU. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, the officer would have to open the grill. You go down range and then have to sign the rounds sheet at the end of each range. MR. QM: And I think I understand what you're saying. You're saying sometimes, there just wasn’t time to do it -- MR. Uh-huh. MR. -- but does that actually constitute a round, actually walking down the range for_a lieutenant? WR. QB: Well, not so much, the officers are supposed to be making the 30 minute rounds. key. Sure. : The lieutenant just has to make sure that that that, he or she has to go EFTA00114418

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wonnu wre 21 in that unit and make sure that the officers are doing their rounds. Check the rounds sheets or the log book, log into True Scope, and, you know, make, basically, is that lieutenant is confirming that staff are doing their job. MR. So, the lieutenant didn’t actually have to walk the tiers? MR. : No. MR. MR. :_No. MR. : And the ranges? All right. So, that was your understanding? So when you’re assigning the actual round that you conducted, it’s to say that you basically did a round with your officers, to ensure they were doing their job? MR. : Their job, and you go into the 10 South and do the same. MR. Okay. But not that you're actual] conducting a round? MR. + Huh-uh. MR. : Like, as far as conducting a round with inmates? MR. No. No, that’s, the whole 23 the count, my job is mainly taking the count. . : Right. . : You know, I could look up at the cameras, you know, but you have a lot of movement going around in Control. MR. : Sure. MR. : You know, throwing keys. If, let's, and there’s been many times where we were so short-staffed, we had one officer in Control. MR. Uh-huh. MR. : So, while I’m taking the count, I’m also doing C&A. I’m helping him throw keys. You know, but as far as clearing the count, yes. You cannot clear the count until you get a verbal, verbal, good verbal count from the Unit Officer, cause we have the PP1, the £1, in front of us with the actual accurate count, as per Sentry. So we have to compare those numbers. You write it down. We compare it. So, you cross it off on the Sentry paperwork, okay, 7, I'll call in a good count. MR. ae. But, as far as, like, the 4 p.m. count, the Activities or Ops Lieutenant has to actually be present in Control to do won nu wre purpose behind the 30 minute log book. Right. :_The 30 minute round sheets. . Okay. “(I stated on weekdays, the prison takes a count at 4 p.m. The Activities and Operations Lieutenant take a verbal count by speaking with each unit and match that number with the count slip from Internal. If correct, they clear the institution count. They cannot clear a count until they receive a good verbal count from every unit. He was not aware of any instances in which the count was cleared without speaking with every unit.” . :_No. . : So that’s correct, though? MR. : Yeah. Yeah. MR. : “BBB stated he would attempt to watch the camera monitors as the corrections officers performed the count to ensure officers were properly counting. He could not monitor at all times, due to the amount of activity in the Control] Room.” Well, it depends. During 24 . Yes, . : And about how many people are present in Control when that count is being conducted? WR. BM: «If we're fully staffed, we'll have two officers and the lieutenant in the Control Center. MR. three people in there? MR. Yeah. It’s the Control Room Officer, the C&A Officer, and it would be the lieutenant, Activities or Ops. MR. What does C&A stand for? MR. : Counts, truth be told, I have a total brain (Indiscernible *00:17:03). Count -- WR. : So, it’s like Control Number 1, Control Number 2 -- MR. : Two, yeah. MR. -- and you’re saying Control Number 2 is -- : Control Number 2 is C&A. Okay. : Old school, it used to be Okay. Okay. So it’s EFTA00114419

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wonnu wre called C&A. MR. : Okay. MR. : I know it’s Counts and Accountability, I think is what the acronym was. WR. WE: Okay. So that's the person who actually, like, receives the counts from people? MR. : Yes. MR. : Is that what you're Saying? WR. MM: «C&A is the one that does all the Sentry work for all the movement, you know, to make sure the roster is accurate, the counts, or the unit base counts and unit counts are accurate. MR. : That's Control Number 2? . :_ Yeah. : So, in this case, if you're looking at August, Friday, August 9, 2019, would that Control Officer Number 2, can you tell me who that would have been? WR. WE (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:49) for the 6 to 2 shift, and (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:51) for the 2 to 27 it should have been, at least at 4 p.m., the person that would be signing the documents and taking the count should have been this and not MR. : With the lieutenant. MR. : With the lieutenant. Okay. And after we're done with this, we'll just go over some of the counts, just to -- MR. 1 Okay. MR. : But we'll move on, just to make sure we can keep moving on this. I’m just going to read it over to, I can’t remember exactly where I left off. MR. : Fourth paragraph. MR. : Third paragraph? MR. : Fourth, — stated he was normally relieved (Indiscernible *00:19:24) before 10 p.m. MR. a. I’m just going to read this last paragraph over. “ stated he would attempt to watch the camera monitors as the corrections officers performed the count to ensure officers were properly counting. He could not monitor at all times, due to the amount of activity in the Control Room.” won nu wre 10. WR. MM: So, as far_as the 4 p.m. count, that would not have been ? WR. ME: well, MBB would have been in Control, cause he would have been the Control 1 Officer. WR. QM: 0h, 1 thought it was Control 2 for him. MR. QM: Control, no, Control 1, is Control 1 and is Control 2. MR. : Oh, okay. So, okay. So, what would Control 1’s typical responsibilities have been? WR. MM: At 4:00, the same thing. At 4:00, people are leaving, so that person would be over at the window, throwing keys. We call it throwing keys. . : Okay. . : It’s just, it’s an expression. He would be taking the keys, radios, OC and stuff like that from the departing staff, putting it back on the board, giving them their chits and receiving chits for equipment for the oncoming staff. wR. SE: okay. So, in this case, 28 Again, you said that you might glance up, but you're not_actually, like -- WR. MB: Yeah. Yeah, I wasn’t staring. MR. | Sure. Absolutely. MR. : You know? I would be answering the phones, writing down the actual : = Totally. MR. -- you know, the crossing off, and, you know, making the, especially if I had seen that, like, if a count was being delayed, I would be, like, what’s the problem? And I would look. You know. WR. QM: «1 got you. So, you're not, like, yeah, making sure they're doing their job -- ‘. i: the camera. MR, : == Cause you have your own job to be doing, is what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. “WI stated he would normally relieve, be relieved before 10 p.m., prior to evening count. He had heard of It's not, I’m not glued to EFTA00114420

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wonnu wre 29 an instance where the count was not properly completed, but he had, but it had been some time in the past.” So, if you're that 2 to 10 shift, do you do the 4, the eae shift would typically do the 10 p.m., is what you’re Yes. Okay. Do you ever do the 10 p.m. ? WR. BEB: «On nights that I was coming in for the overnight. MR. — But, I mean, as the 2 to 10 shift, do you ever do the 10 p.m.? MR. : I probably have, but I can't even recall when the last time I was. MR. QM: Yeah, yeah. It’s typically that relieving officer's duty, though? MR. MB: Yeah. lieutenant. MR. : Lieutenant, right. MR. :_ Yeah. MR. : And then it says, “He had heard of an instance where the count was not properly completed, but it had been some time The relieving 31 count is one of the most important duties corrections,” I keep on saying corrections, but I know it's correctional officers “perform as professionals.” MR. MBM: Right. It's accountability. Inmate accountability is the most important thing here. Maintain security. MR. : Okay. MR. : You got to make sure that they're all here at the end of the day. WR. QM: So, are you saying, like, basically, counts and rounds are the most important things that a correctional officer does? WR. MM: «Count, I mean, everything, controlling contraband, shaking down. Nowadays, with the K2, it’s ridiculous. MR. + Right. MR. : You know, there’s a lot on an officer's shoulders. Right. But of course, you know, we only do the counts at certain periods throughout the day. You know? The officers making rounds are what helps reduce the fact of won nu wre in the past.” Any information on that? WR. MM: No. I mean, it was probably, I remember when I said that. It was, you always hear of the horror stories, and when you come home, come in off your days off, you would be, like, oh, you know, what happened the other day? Or this, that, and the third. You : Right. That kind of thing. Okay. But I have never heard it where it has been detrimental. WR. MR: Okay. But it wasn't talking specifically about, like, August 9th (Indiscernible *00:21:12). WR. QM: No, no. I’m talking, like, ten years. I wasn’t even a lieutenant at the . : Okay. . : You know, I was still an “HB stated, asa lieutenant, he worked to enforce policy through verbal counseling and by example. Taking the 32 them doing the K2 or, you know, making weapons or tattooing or things of that nature. . : Sure. . : You know, so, of course, making rounds, being visible. That's what we like to say, and, like, when we're training or whatever. Be visible. MR. : Sure. MR, : Make the inmates see you. MR. : So, counts are basically to ensure everybody is there. And rounds are to ensure that inmates are kind of doing what they’re supposed to be doing? Okay. And that's a perfect, what's the word I'm looking for? Perfect expression. WR. QM: Okay. Perfect example. Yeah. “HEM stated the Special Housing Unit is responsible for doing rounds every 30 minutes. As the lieutenant, he would sign round forms, if they were correct. He had never signed off on forms that were EFTA00114421

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wonnu wre 33 filled out in advance, and would report any instances of that to his supervisors, if he was aware of it.” So, I’m assuming what you mean there is, if you knew they were filled out in advance? . +I wouldn't sign them. . : Right. . : I’m not putting my John Hancock on that. I would tell them (Indiscernible *00:22:58). WR. QM: | But, how would you know if they had filled it out in advance? You mean, if -- WR. WM: If I went there and sat, and if I walked into the SHU unit and it was 1:00, I'm just throwing the time out there -- mR. _ sure. MR. : -- 1:00 p.m., but I saw the rounds sheet, it was 1:00 when I walked in, but I look at the rounds sheet and the 1:30 rounds are already filled out. . : And would that happen? . : Very rarely. But I might, I don’t think I have seen it as a lieutenant, but I have heard of it happening. minutes, not to exceed 40. MR. + Right. MR. : You know? MR. : “BBB stated he had heard stories of officers not completing their 30 minute rounds in the SHU. Other than the Jeffrey Epstein death, he had not heard of an instance for approximately five to ten years." MR. i MR. : So, I’m assuming what you're saying here is -- MR. a in the days. MR. : But I'm assuming what you said, when you say other than Jeffrey Epstein, you did hear that they did not complete their 30 minute rounds? MR. QR: I mean, bureau-wide. have gotten in trouble for it before. MR. : Right. MR. : That's why, like, this whole, this was all new with the fact that how serious it got. MR. a. Okay. But you had heard that, had you heard that on August 9th and 10th, then, and I am assuming this means after the People 34 WR. QM: «But you never really, you never witnessed it? WR. MM: But, I was trained differently. I was trained, you don’t put your ink to paper unless it’s the way it's supposed to be, and if it is, tell the boss. WR. QM: Now, back then, August of 2019, had you heard that people were filling them out in advance? MR. :_ No. I didn’t. MR. : No? MR. + No. MR. : Okay. So you’re not aware of anybody filling them out in advance? MR. : No. I have no personal knowledge. WR. GM: “He trained officers to defer their round patterns, so inmates would not be aware of their timing.” MR. :_ Yes. MR. : And that means it’s just not to be on an exactly 30 minute -- WR. WM: Yeah. Don’t always make your rounds at 1:05, 1:35, 1:45. Alternate your rounds. The policy states, every 30 36 fact, that people weren't conducting their 30 minute rounds? WR. ME: The only thing I heard is the same thing everybody else has heard, out on the street. MR. : Okay. MR. : What you hear in the media, what you hear on social media, what you hear in the newspapers. They were very quiet here. MR. : Okay. MR. : Iwas here that morning of, after the fact, and we didn’t get told anything. WR. MM: «Are you talking about August 10th? MR. : Yeah. That Saturday. MR. : Okay. MR. : You know. There was a total blackout. We were kept in the dark. WR. QM: And you hadn't heard anything about, like, people not conducting counts or_rounds? WR. MMM: No. Just, well, like I said, the same thing you heard out on the street. EFTA00114422

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wonnu wre 37 MR. QM: «But, 1 mean, not from inside the institution? :_ No. No one was speaking about WR. WE: Well, I mean, the whispers, here and there, but nothing was confirmed. Okay. : You know? Of course, when something like this, look, it’s, I have been doing this almost 21 years. When something, God forbid happens like this, everybody Monday morning quarterbacks. MR. : Sure. MR : Everybody talks, oh, they must have done this, or they didn’t do this. That's all I have heard. Uh-huh. : I didn’t hear nothing official, if that’s what you're asking. MR. : Yeah. No, no, no. MR. :_I have heard rumor mills. MR. : I just wanted to know -- MR. : There were whispers. This, that, and the other thing. 39 MR. QM: Okay. But that was a correct, was that a correct assessment, which I . : Yes. Yes. . : Okay. MR. : I apologize. to go long-winded on it. MR. : No, no, no. Just cause when I said it, you said, no, but I just wanted to make sure you actually meant yes. MR. :_ Yeah, no. Like, I heard -- MR. : With what, I know, I understand -- MR. | nothing official. Yeah. MR. : Right, yeah, yeah. I just, cause for the transcript, it will read that you're contradicting what I said, and I just want_to make sure -- MR. | problem. MR. : -- what I said was actually accurate. Okay. MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : “BB stated he recalled suicides taking place in MCC in 2003 and another several years later.” So, I guess, I don't mean MR. QR: «1 would just assume people would have been talking inside the institution. I wanted to make sure that you also heard it inside the institution, not just through the media? WR. WH: Yeah. No, I mean, I, like, as far as a whisper here and a rumor here, I chose to stay away from it, because, one, I was a supervisor and two, I know what was coming . : Sure. . : I knew how serious it was going to be. And I was not going to entertain any of that. WR. MMM: «Sure. So, you had heard people saying that there were rounds and counts weren't complete; however, you didn't put any credibility to it -- MR. + No. MR. : -+ because it wasn't official? WR. MMM: No. It wasn’t, it wasn’t official. It was just rumor mills. It was whispers. It was Monday morning quarterbacking, for lack of better terms. what you're saying is that since you have worked, maybe there was about two suicides? MR. : I had one, I was personally involved in one in 2003, and that’s the one that I was, that I referenced. There was one years later. I don't recall what year it was, or the outcome of that one. I just know that the one that I was involved in, the officer in charge in the SHU unit got suspended for it. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, the rounds were made, but they weren't within that 30 to 40 minute, so the OIC got hit on that one. MR. a. And do you know why the OIC? WR. QM: «1 think the rounds, I think, if I can recall correctly, I think when he entered the round, about 40 minutes, but it turned out it didn’t jive with the camera. So they suspended him. MR All right. So, if the time that_he wrote on the paper didn’t show -- : Didn't jive with the camera. (Indiscernible EFTA00114423

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41 WR. WM: Like, the reason, the camera showed we were making rounds. We just didn’t make them between 30 and 40, that 30 minute, not to exceed 40, I believe it just didn’t jive with the camera. MR. > Okay. MR. : And they hit him. MR. : And were you actually working in the SHU at the time? WR. MBB: I was in the SHU at the time. MR. : Okay. MR. : Iwas one of the officers that cut that inmate down and we tried to do CPR on him. We did CPR on him. We got him down to Medical, and then they rushed him out in an ambulance. MR. HM: And just out of curiosity, in that case, at about what time was he found? MR. QR: 0h, that was, like, 3:30 something. MR. _ In the afternoon? MR. : It was before the 4 p.m. count. remember he was between the bunk and the window. WR. «But that’s important to note. So he actually had a cellmate at the time? . | ae MR. : And he still was able to successfully - MR. a. MR. : -- and it was deemed a suicide, not_a murder? MR. :_ Yes. MR. : Okay. MR. : Cause his cellmate never got charged. MR. QM: «And do you know what he used to hang himself? MR. : I believe it was cut-up bedsheets. MR. > Okay. MR. : If I recall correctly. MR. : All right. And that was the 2001 or -- MR. : That was 2003. MR. : That was the 2003 one? 42 WR. QM: Okay. So it happened actually in the afternoon? WR. MM: Yeah. That was on day shift. MR. QR: Did he have a cellmate at the time? MR. : Yes, he did. MR. : And the cellmate didn't notice? WR. ME: His cellmate said, yo, you want to take care of this? Oh, wow. : And he was strung up. . Was it also from, where was it, where was he hanging from? WR. QB: He had the thing tied up. He was between the bunk and the window. WR. MM: Okay. Was he attached to the bunk or what was he attached to? WR. QM: =I think he was attached to the window, if I recall. I honestly don’t remember. That was a long time ago. MR. : Sure, sure, sure. MR. : It was either the top of the bunk or to the window. He was between, I do 44 WR. QM: =I don’t remember exactly the dates or the stipulations on the one that happened years later. MR. a: Do you happen to remember the name of that inmate? WR. ME: Of that committed suicide? HM, | believe. MR MR. : Yeah. MR. : Okay. “BE stated he was on duty the night Epstein was brought to MCC. He was received at the rear gate and observed him being processed in.” MR. Uh-huh. MR. : “At the time of his arrival, Epstein was deemed okay to go to general population. [MMM was unaware of his high profile." WR. WM: Yes. I remember when he came in. The only thing that I remember that stuck out in my mind, he went to the same high school that_I did. MR. : Okay. MR. : I graduated from the same high school. Cause the cop, I think he was an EFTA00114424

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wonnu wre 45 NYPD task force guy with the FBI, he was from Brooklyn and we chatted, cause we had Brooklyn accents, and come, you know, me and the cop were from, like, basically, the same area in Brooklyn, and he was, like, what high school did you graduate from? And I said, Lafayette, and Epstein actually said, so did I. I graduated from Lafayette High School. MR. : Interesting. MR. : I processed him. Sent him up. I actually found out that they moved him to the Special Housing because of his profile status when I came back to work. So, you had no idea who I had no idea who he was. As a matter of fact, the next morning, my wife actually said, you'll probably be getting him soon. And showed me the phone, you know, the news feed, and I said, soon? We got him last night. Then I knew who he was. Okay. . : And then when I came, by the time I came back to work, though, he was already in SEC (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:35). hey, what's up? MR. : Right. When he was on, like, when he would be on one tier, I remember, I think, at one point in time, he was on H tier, if I'm not mistaken. The only time I would really see him on the tier is when I would escort him. MR. QR: «And what would you, what would be the purpose of escorting him? MR. : Down to attorney conference, for his legal visits. MR. a. Okay. So, would that be, then, in the morning, you would do that? WR. WE: «It would be all day long. He would get legal visits all day, into the evening. MR. QM: | And he would be going back and forth between the SHU? WR. WM: Well, most of the time, he would get brought downstairs and he would be there for hours. MR. : Right. MR. : There would be times he would be in legal visits through the count. i Yech 46 MR. QM: «Interesting. Okay. So, it was just within 24 hours, he was moved from general population to SHU? MR. : I believe so. I believe, less, I believe less than 48, definitely. WR. GR: Okay. A11 right. “BBB stated he knew Epstein to be in visits often with his legal counsel.” MR. :_ Yes. MR. : “Often until 7 to 8 p.m.” MR. :_ Yes, MR. : “Other than the intake uestions Epstein answered on his arrival, had no other personal interaction with . :_No. . : So you never just, you WR. ME: Never chatted with him. I would just escort him. Cause at one point in time, a lieutenant had to move him. WR. MM: Okay. And what about when you would visit the SHU? Would you ever check in on his cell or anything like that? Would you ever look through the door or say, 48 WR. QM: «The officers would have to do the out count. WR. QM: «Yeah, so my understanding was that he would basically be brought down around 8 a.m. and stay until almost 8 p.m. Is that -- WR. MBB: A lot of the times, he would. MR. | So not always, though? MR. : Sometimes, he would go back to SHU and then a different attorney would come in and he would be brought back down in the afternoon. MR. : Oh, I see. MR. : You know, he had legal visits in_and out of here all day long. WR. QM: Okay. So, you talk about when you would escort him, would be that kind of middle timeframe? MR. Yeah. MR. : So if he ever went back to the SHU -- WR. QM: Depending on what shift I was on. WR. ME: Okay. And when you were EFTA00114425

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wonnu wre 49 escorting him, would you communicate with him? MR. Basically, how are you doing? All right. Well, I don’t, I don’t get too chumny with inmates. MR. —. Sure. I would just, you know, with Epstein, I'm assuming, it might stand out in your little, you know, in your head a little bit more. Do you know the last time that you had escorted him or (Indiscernible *00:32:35)? MR. I was about to escort him the night before he died. MR. And what happened? MR. : Iwas in the lieutenant’s office, and the attorney conference officer said, hey, MM, he’s ready to go. But Mr. MMMM vias here, and was, like, I, 1 will take him up. MR. > Okay. MR. : And he said, you know, by the way, I'm going to take him up. I’m going to give him a legal call. Okay. I was, like, okay. No problem. is a GS-12, so. I was like, WR. WR: No? Okay. And then again, back to SHU, when you would visit the SHU and do a round, would you peek in on his window or anything? Would you check with him and say, everything -- MR. I mean, sometimes, his cell was right over where the OIC desk was. NR. Right. MR. : And I could look right into his cell, and most of the time, I would see him in it. MR. | Okay. MR. : And didn't interact with him though. MR. QM: But not actually check in and say, are you good or anything like that? MR. No. If I was making a round downrange, I would peek in. I would peek in all the cells, if I’m downrange. WR. a Right. . : But not on a regular basis, MR. «Okay. “GB stated he was not involved officially in regard to won nu wre no problem. He was being escorted by a supervisor, so I went back into the lieutenant's office. All right. : And that was the last time I WR. I: So, ME is the one who escorted him from attorney conferences on August 9th? . :_Was it the 9th or 19th? . : The 9th. So, August 9, . BB: Okay. Yeah. That Friday . : The Friday night. . : Right. Okay. . : I forget the actual date. I remember it being a Friday. I just forgot the date. WR. HM: «And do you remember, though, the last time you had interacted with him? WR. WM: No, I do not. I don’t 52 Epstein’s first alleged suicide attempt. His only other involvement with Epstein was to bring him food while in the SHU.” : Yeah, if he was on jf tier. Okay. : Cause on §f tier, the lieutenants have to, have the key to the wicket to be able to feed, but if he was on a regular tier, no. There was times when, and when he was a lieutenant hold, a lieutenant had to open his, be there every time his slot was opened. But he wasn’t always on a lieutenant hold. MR. : Can you explain that more? Cause § tier is like the 10 South of the SHU, right? WR. MM: tier is like a mini, it’s almost like 10 South. The inmates are self- sustained in there. They have their own shower. They have their own, you know, it’s basically, it’s a bigger room. It’s almost like the 10 South rooms. But also the same thing, the SHU lieutenant, or if the SHU lieutenant, afterhours, there’s no SHU lieutenant, only a lieutenant can open those (Indiscernible *00:34:50) boxes. The wickets. He was found on August EFTA00114426

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wonnu wre 53 MR. QE: «So, was Epstein ever on fj tier? ‘. a: remember. MR. QR: «So what does this mean by his only other involvement with Epstein was to bring him_food? WR. WM: Food. when they’re a lieutenant hold, even if they’re in a regular SHU cell, a lieutenant has to be present to open the slot. Even though the lieutenant doesn't have to open it himself, the lieutenant has to be there when the slot is opened. WR. WR: So, anytime inmates are served food in the SHU, a lieutenant has to be present? MR. QM: No. Not every inmate. Only if the inmate is a lieutenant move. Like, if a lieutenant has to be present, like, high security. Like if they're assaultive. I don’t recall. I don't Inmates could be put -- MR. a. So, was Epstein ever a lieutenant move? MR. |e not 100% sure. MR. : So, that’s where I'm just 55 He would get, like, the bag lunch from fj. MR. a. So, like, if he, when he was escorted in the morning, they would give him a bag lunch to bring into the attorney -- MR. MMM: Yeah. Well, like, they have, sometimes, I believe, he would get, I’m not sure, he could be escorted back to the Special Housing to eat his meal. MR. > Okay. MR. : Use the restroom or whatever, and go down, but they get to use the restroom when they're in attorney conference, anyway. WR. BM: Okay. So you’re not exactly sure how he was fed, then? MR. QM: Not down in attorney conference, no. WR. EE: Okay. every day, right? MR. : Yes. much every day. Cause he was there He was there pretty : Okay. That I recall. All right. So, the food, I'm assuming, would have taken place more at, won nu wre 54 trying to get the accuracy of this thing, so it’s only -- WR. MM: «I don't, I don’t remember. That's the problem. I remember -- a: So, do you remember ever bringing Epstein food in the SHU? : a: I fed him before. But that night hive also been just because I happened to be downrange. I can’t recall if, I don’t recall if he was ever actually a lieutenant . + Okay. . : I remember he had to be escorted from attorney conference. So that’s what, cause that’s what -- MR. QM: «How would his feeding be done, when he was in attorney conference? Would they, would you feed him? MR. : Sometimes, they would get a bag lunch. And they would take it up with So, as in, like, when -- I don’t remember if he ever ate in the attorney conference room, but he wouldn't get the food from the food cart there. 56 like, what time, you know, when he would get, return back at the 8 p.m. mark. Would that be when he would be fed? WR. MM: Well, he would, if he was given the food in I, like, not a. the bag lunches, he would have it given to him in attorney conference and he would take it with MR. | al Okay. MR. : You know, if he was going to eat past dinnertime, but also, a lot of the times, too, if he was, like, not just him. inmate. If they’re downstairs, the officers could also place the food in his cell, and he could have the food when he comes back from attorney conference. MR. QM: Okay. So, they can go in his cell ahead of time, put it in there, even if he had a cellmate? MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. And there was never problems with, like, the other cellmate - WR. QM: No. I mean, for the most part, the inmates respect each other. Any EFTA00114427

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wonnu wre 57 WR. I: Okay. “QB stated he was aware Epstein had been moved back to the SHU, and that he was required to have a roommate, per amass email he had received." MR. : Yeah. It went out to all lieutenants. WR. QM: «So, you received an email, saying that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? Yes. Okay. And was that requirement still in place on August 9, 2019? I believe so. Okay. “BM stated he did not have any conversations with anyone regarding Epstein’s need for a roommate, a cellmate.” So no one ever verbalized that to you? . : Just in the email. . : Just the -- . : And Psychology would let us WR. EEE Would Psychology actually verbalize it? WR. WM: =I mean, basically, yeah. 59 It’s from Psychology. Psychology generates it. MR. a. So, if you’re on the hot list, everybody gets a cellmate? MR. : Yeah. If it’s annotated in there. It will, every inmate's, in the hot list, a picture of the inmate is in there. That is, whether he or she is in for a Psych study or a forensic study or what have you, and it will say, you know, suicide attempts in the past. Or_cutter. Or what have you. . And where would that hot : The hot list is kept in SHU. . : Where in the SHU? MR. : It should be in a, either on a Clipboard or in a folder. MR. J: «And do you know where it was on August 9, 2019? MR. : It should have been, I’m not 100% sure. I can’t recall, but it should have been on a clipboard on the hook. MR. : And are the officers -- By the officers’ station. Are the officers that are in SHU requi red to look at that hot list? won nu wre 58 Like, for lack of, they would say that, you know, not on a daily basis. They would just say, any kind of, especially if they have had a suicide attempt in the past, they get put on what’s called the hot list. Psychology threats are always on the hot list. Inmates that are on the hot list should always have a bunkie. WR. QM: Okay. So, anybody on the hot list gets a bunkie? MR. : As long, if it’s dictated in there by Psychology. Psychology fills out the hot list. MR. : Right. . :_And it gets, they update it. : So, is Psychology’s hot list, is it just for the people that need cellmates or is it also people that can’t have cellmates? What is the hot list? WR. MB: what do you mean? Can or can't? What do you mean? MR. a. Can't, cause aren't there some people that have, like, you know, (Indiscernible *00:38:34). WR. QM: Separation, no, the hot list doesn’t pertain, the hot list is psychological. 60 MR. : Yes. MR. : All right. So, they should know -- MR. QM: They should be familiar with who is on the hot list. WR. GM: «So, is everybody that worked in the SHU, should have they known that Epstein was required to have a cel lmate? MR. a MR. : Is there any reason for someone to say that they didn’t know that Epstein was required to have a cel lmate? MR. : Unless they weren't assigned to the post and they were thrown in there on overtime or mandated to work overtime and they weren't familiar with it, that can happen. But if you're steady, assigned to that post, you should be familiar with the hot list. WR. QM: Okay. And is there any kind of requirement for people, like, overtime that are, you know, not regularly working in the SHU, to be either briefed on the hot list or to review the hot list when they joined? MR. MM: It all depends. Like, I mean, a good SHU officer, worth his weight in EFTA00114428

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wonnu wre 61 salt, would at least talk the staff member through it. But, like I said, there was plenty of times where the entire SHU crew were all overtimers. : Right. So, nobody came to work. : Okay. : Anda lot of the times, you would have SHU crews, never mind just SHU crews, institutional staff that would be zonbies, because they had been getting stuck four days ina row. Soa lot of the times, things, you know, it’s a lot to absorb. You just, you're trying to do the job. MR. a. Okay. $0, looking at the August 9, 2019, roster, and I’m going to say from the 8 a.m. hour on to the end of the day, for the people that were working in the SHU, can you tell me who you believe should have known that he was required to have a cellmate? MR. WM: For the day shift or the evening shift? MR. : Just from 8 a.m. on. MR. : 8 a.m. on. All right. Well, it looks, there was three officers, she have known what the hot list was? MR. + Yes. MR. : And should have she known that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? MR. MM: Yes. You have to sign for the hot, you have to sign that you reviewed the hot list. MR. GM: 0h, you do have to sign ; , Uh-huh. : All right. do you sign that? MR. : Last I checked, I don’t, I can't get quoted on this, cause I’m not 100% certain. We would sign it a lot, like, well, at least the lieutenants, would sign it when we would do lieutenants meetings and meet with Psychology and go, review the hot list, we would all_sign for it. MR. a. Now, I’m assuming the hot list is ever-changing, correct? WR. ME: Yes. Psychology always updates it. MR. QM: «So, how often does the hot list have to be signed? And who, when won nu wre 62 , and basically, QM is 6 to 2. -. a senior staff member. [x Phonetic Sp. *00:41:12) was a rookie. Officer col is a senior staff member. So, three out of the four on the day shift. So, you're saying -- ~ should have known? ihat about for the evening shift? WR. MM: Evening shift? Al] right. BBM had a couple of years on the job. The SHU floor was unassigned, because we were short. There was only three officers. is non-custody. So, I would not be super familiar with it, because he worked warehouse. Okay. Okay. And he’s with commissary. Was he a -- Noel was fairly new. She had, naybe, just a little over a year on the job. WR. QM: «But if Noel was a regular SHU person, that was her quarterly post, should 64 vk. a: Every time it gets updated, and they put a new one, it should be reviewed. = thay. . : And I don’t, I honestly haven't seen it in a while, cause now, my contact with Special Housing is limited, now that I'm a counselor. MR. : Did you make that note? MR. : Yeah. Can I ask a question on that? MR. : Yes. MR. : What exactly are you signing? MR. : That you reviewed the hot MR. MMMM: but, is that, like, a form or It’s a sign-in sheet. A sign-in sheet? Yeah. And you know that lieutenants had to, but do you believe the officers had to sign the review of the hot list? “e, : I'm not 100% sure, but I EFTA00114429

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wonnu wre i SCwoeoytnu wre as wr ee es on Dw Se Mmmm mee Wr rt Ow 65 know, as they have, they're require to review the hot list. They should be familiar with that hot list. Know who their psychological inmates are, just as well as reviewing the posted picture file. Okay. . To know who your high profile and your dangerous inmates are. MR. —: All right. So, at that time, you being an Activities or in this case, an Ops Lieutenant, would have you had to have reviewed and signed the hot list in the SHU? MR. : No, no, no. It's, I would sign it here. Like I said, in the lieutenants meetings, we would go over it with Psychology. WR. QM: Sorry. I mean, the SHU hot list, is what I mean. MR. MBM: No, that's the one that would be there. The hot list is just generated by Psychology. It’s not like there’s one for SHU, one for the lieutenant’s office, one for here. It stays in SHU, but Psychology would always make sure we familiarize ourselves with it. WR. WE: And is it only, is there 67 profile nature and the fact that he had a first suicide, suicide attempt, including these people that you mentioned in the SHU, is there any reason for anybody to say they didn’t know that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? I don’t know. You don’t know? No. I mean, the people that are assigned to SHU, but the problem is, if you look, overtime. He wasn’t assigned. Overtime. She got assigned to that post, but it probably, I don't believe it was her post for the quarter. You know? I’m not, I don’t, I can’t recall 100%. WR. WM: But as far as, aren't people that work in this facility, correctional officers first? WR. WE: «Of course. Of course. That’s the thing. MR. i And if they know that the high-profile nature and the fact that he tried to commit suicide, don't all officers pretty much know, if you try to commit suicide, you're required to have a cellmate? WR. BM: OF course. won nu wre only a hot list in SHU? That I know of. Okay. So, my question, sorry, I probably was unclear, is at this time, the SHU hot list, you being the Activities Lieutenant, or, in this case, the Ops Lieutenant on that specific date, August 9th, would you have reviewed and signed that hot a Not every day. Yeah, yeah. when i was -- a oe yes. Right. So, point being, like, ¥ Epstein was on the hot list, you would have signed and reviewed it? MR. MM: Yes. Of course. I mean, like I said, anybody at that point in time should have known that he was going to be on the net list. . after the first suicide attempt. MR. — Okay. And do you think anybody in the institution, with his high- WR. QM: © So, shouldn’t everyone have known that he was required to have a cellmate? MR. :__In that sense, yes. MR. : All right. And especially the fact that he is in the SHU, he is, at the time, I think, your most high- profile inmate. MR. | MR. : Do you believe that they should have known that he was required to have a cellmate? MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. “HE stated Lieutenant was the SHU lieutenant. He believed Lieutenant [J would have known Epstein required a roommate or a cellmate as it is a regular responsibility. He believed Lieutenant [MM would have enforced the roommate rule. stated he had worked the 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift on August 9, 2019. He was relieved around 9:50 to 9:55 p.m. that evening. He was not aware that Epstein did not have a roommate.” WR. BR: No. But, like, 68 EFTA00114430

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wonnu wre i SCwoeoytnu wre as wr ee es on Dw Se Mmmm mee Wr rt Ow 6 WR. QM: “te did not know I, Epstein’s former roommate, had left MCC leaving Epstein without a roommate. [aa found out the following morning. He had been working as Operations Lieutenant that evening. had been working as Activities Lieutenant. She had made the rounds.” All right, so on this, I'l] guess we'll just go one sentence at a time. So you didn’t know that day that Reyes had left the institution, is what you said? No. No. Now, is that -- I was unaware. : Now, is that something that if he, if he had left, is that something that you should have known? MR. MM: No. What happens is, when inmates go to court, and then they get released or transferred out, they don’t necessarily tell us. Basically, what happens is then, the only way we're going to know anybody moved is when we do the PP30 at the end of the night. Just to, you know, write down who -- MR. as. Is it PP30 or 38? Right? 71 BBM, his cellmate, leaves the institution. Should someone have notified you? WR. WE: «I would have liked to be notified. MR. [RM: «So, who should have notified you that Reyes was -- MR. : When he departed the institution, somebody should have been notified. Maybe not me, but somebody should have known. WR. MM: Okay. So, if he departed the institution at 8:38 a.m., and he’s listed as pre-remove, removed off of the records, how should have that went down? WR. WE: «If he was known to not come back, then he should have had gotten a new cellie. Like right away? As soon as humanly possible. Okay. So, if people claim that they didn’t, they weren’t, they assumed he wasn’t coming back, cause he went With All Belongings. So, if someone goes With All Belongings -- MR. : WAB means With All won nu wre 70 MR. QR: PP, I believe it might be a 38. I don't, off the top of my head, I don’t remember. I know it’s the quarter’s, the movement roster. I haven't done it in a while. MR. QJ: «Well, there’s some of those things we're going to review after -- MR. : Yeah. But I know it’s a Sentry, it's got to be entered in Sentry, and then basically, it gets transferred over to the lieutenant’s log. MR. : Okay. MR. : Right? At, you know, to monitor what movement you had, just to make sure your numbers jive with the institution numbers at the end of each shift. MR. QM: Okay. So, in this case, do you believe someone should have, being that it was Epstein, and Epstein’s cellmate, Reyes, left the institution? Should someone have told you this? ‘. i: directly? WR. QM: Yeah, as the Ops Lieutenant, you have Epstein, your most high- profile. He is required to have a cellmate. Should somebody have told me Belongings. back. MR. | And that’s pretty much -- MR. : Most of the time, they're not coming back. There are occasions where they cancel the bus, or they cancel the transport or Air America, they will cancel, and then they'll come back, but most of the time, when they go WAB, that means they’re going. They're either going home or going to whatever institution they're getting moved to. MR. a. Right. So, in this case, if people know that Reyes leaves at 8:30, he’s moved down by the OIC from the SHU to B. WAB. What should have happened at that point? WR. QR: So, I would assume that during the day, on a Friday, the lieutenant, the SHU lieutenant is here. WR. QM: So, if the SHU lieutenant is actually off that day, no SHU lieutenant, you got -- WR. MBM: A lieutenant should have, a SHU, a supervisor should have been notified. IR. a Okay, MR. : And been like, hey, he don't That means they're not coming EFTA00114431

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wonnu wre have a bunkie no more. MR. | Okay. And if that -- MR. : And then it should be, you know, then get him one. . MMMM: 11 ight. So, and if the OIC, let's, for the benefit of the doubt, OIC does inform one of the lieutenants, let’s say in this case, it looks like Activities was And the Ops was Uh-huh. And no action is taken by them. ihat would be the next thing that could have happened with this, to make sure, you know, Epstein, high-profile, doesn’t have a cellmate. What should have, how could this catch up to itself? How could we rectify the fact that Epstein was -- MR. : Well, that’s, then, if nobody is notified, no one knows. MR. S| Right. So, would the SHU, after is gone, the next, you know, and his crew leaves and then the next SHU crew comes in, should have they, then, said, hey, Reyes isn’t here. We're doing our rounds. There's nobody in there. he notified you of that? MR. : Imean, if he had direct knowledge, possibly. Like, that’s the thing. It was, no_one knew. MR. QM: «But, if he says he knew, he knew that, well, let's say if says, yeah, I knew Reyes left. I just wasn’t certain he wasn't _coming back. MR. : That's possible. MR. : But should have he notified you? MR. : I should have known about it. Whether or not it was from {i or from the SHU crew, especially cause he was a hot inmate. WR. RM: Okay. So, either or the SHU crew should have informed you? Yes. And no one informed you? I wasn't informed. Okay. I found out the next tay. Right. What about, know your Activities Lieutenant, you said, ts the one who did the round, correct? 74 . :. . : Should they have notified the lieutenant? MR. : I should have been notified. MR. : And who should have you been notified by? MR. : At least the SHU crew. They should have been, like, hey, this guy doesn’t have a cellmate. WR. SE: «1f BE, the former Ops Lieutenant, knows that, at the very least, Reyes left the institution -- MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : -+ possibly for court. Maybe he doesn’t know he’s WAB, but he knows that he left. Should he have notified you that Reyes was -- WR. MN: Well, if he had knowledge, you know, that’s part of taking over. You know, the changeover. Hey, anything happen? Anything I need to know? (Indiscernible *00:51:00). MR. : In this case, Reyes, knowing that, if he knew Reyes was Epstein’s cellmate, had left the institution, should have 76 . : Yes. MR. : Should she have known, Reyes is gone. Epstein is without a cellmate, when she did her round? WR. MBM: If she found it. know, cause I wasn’t there. WR. ME: «No, no, no. I'm saying, should she have, should that be, like, when she is doing her round in the SHU, is that something that she should have recognized? WR. ME: If she went downrange, maybe. But if she didn’t go downrange, and no one told her, it would be the same ballpark. No one told her. She is, you know, it’s unbeknownst to her. I don’t When she went to the SHU, (knocking on_door) MR. a. -- we're in here. When she went into the SHU, should the OIC crew, or not the OIC, the SHU crew have told her, Reyes is gone, Epstein is without a cellmate? MR. : Possibly. Yeah. I mean, a lieutenant is not going to know anything unless the officers relay that information to the EFTA00114432

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lieutenant. We're not superhuman. WR. BM: «So, if she did her rounds, and again, you said that she is the one who did the rounds, do you believe it was their responsibility to say, hey, Activities Lieutenant, just so you know, no one is in that cell. Reyes is gone. Just want to give you the heads up. Should that have happened? MR. a, MR. : Okay. And then she would have then informed you -- MR. QM: «Of course, listen, she would have definitely notified me. She is, for the lack of better terms, and I don’t mean to use profanity, she is a shit hot lieutenant. . Okay. She is on her job. : Yep. . She would have definitely, if she knew, she would have let me know. Okay. :__And we would have fixed it. . So, whoever was working on her, on that shift, when she visited, should certainly have informed her that Reyes was him that Epstein had passed away.” MR. :_ Yes. MR. : “He saw his body and told his officers not to speak to anyone and direct any questions to the prison public relations officer.” . :_ Yes. . : Do you know who that was at the time? MR. MM: It's usually the Executive Assistant, so it should have been Lee Plourde. . : Okay. So, Lee Plourde? . : Lee Plourde is the public -- MR. : Yeah. “He said the same to the hospital security.” MR. * MR. : Okay. So that was not people that were BOP, but the hospital -- WR. WH: No, yeah. There was hospital security around the room, too, and I was, like, no one goes in here unless it’s hospital staff or Bureau staff. MR. : Okay. “ stated officers (Phonetic Sp. *00:54:46) fi , and were on-scene at the won nu wre . ." ny understanding, yes. . : And WB never told you MR. QM: «No. I don’t recall her telling me. And like I said, just knowing her, and her caliber, she would have told me. VR. SM: Right. “HEED stated if he had known Epstein did not have a roommate, he would have ensured he did.” MR. :_ Yes, MR. : “And he knew him to be on the hot list.” . Yes. MR. : “BB stated the following morning, August 10, 2019, at approximately 6:30 to 6:45 a.m., he received a call from Lieutenant , informing him that Epstein had attempted suicide and he should go straight to the hospital, instead of reporting to the jail for duty.” WR. MM: Yes. That's what I did, I went straight to Beekman Hospital. 3). A stated, at the hospital, the escorting staff informed hospital.” MR. :_ Yes, MR. : Now, were they people that escorted Epstein to the hospital? MR. : That's what I believe, yeah. They had to be, because, like I said, I was on my way to the hospital. I went straight to the hospital. I believe those were the three staff members that they got to be the escorting staff. WR. QM: Okay. Now, as far as Epstein going to the hospital, do you know when he actually was deceased? MR. : I remember, my mission at that point, Lieutenant [J had told me, go straight to the hospital, tell the officers, you know, keep the area secure and record time of death. I think the hospital told me it was, like, 7 something. I don’t recall the actual time, and then I called Lieutenant [ij and gave him that time, and then he was, like, all right. We already got it. Bring yourself back to the institution. MR. QM: So, do you know if, prior to that time, he had shown any signs of life? EFTA00114433

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wonnu wre MR. | I am unaware. No. MR. : Okay. So did anyone mention to you or state to you, he died actually at the prison? MR. : No. MR. : They just pronounced him dead there? MR. QM: They told me they pronounced him dead. I don’t remember the actual time. It was 7 something, which was the time of death that the hospital recorded. MR. : Okay. MR. : And that's what I relayed back to Lieutenant IM, and then he said, all right, we got it already. Come to the institution. And then I left the hospital. MR. QM: §Do you believe that when he was found at the BOP institution, he was actually dead on scene? MR. QM: I don’t, I don’t know. I can't, I can’t answer yes or no. Okay. I just know, when I saw his body in ‘the thing here, the intubation tube in his neck and down his throat, and it looked been escorting OIG and I didn’t even know. MR. : Sure. MR. : Basically, Captain J just made me go along and go and try, assist in any way I could, anytime, any documents they needed or whatever. That's what I did. MR. : Sure. MR. : Pretty much the rest of the day. VR. SR: Okay. “BE stated he was not aware of the destruction of any records.” MR. : No. : “BBB stated he knew Officer Thomas for a few years and knew Officer Noel as a newer officer, but had no personal relationship with either.” . :_No. : All right. Cool. Anything that they missed or failed to capture? MR. No. I was being refreshed, as you were reading it. MR. —. And that’s for future, is what I’m talking about. MR. BB: Okay. like they were working on him. WR. MM: And they were stil] working on him? No, no, no. They had worked Okay. He was already deceased, but he still had he intubation tube down his throat. WR. okay. “HJ stated he had not taken any photographs of Epstein’s body and advised his officers to stay with the body until they could be relieved.” Yes “HMMM stated, back at the prison, he resuned his activities as lieutenant and was guided to collect log books and escort FBI agents as part of the death investigation.” MR. :_ Yes. MR. : Were any OIG there at the time? WR. QR: Not that I know of. There were SO many agents and people coming in and out, taking computers, I don’t, I could have WR. GM: «All right. Great. So now, so, everything seemed accurate, as far as this was written? MR. 1 Yes. Okay. Perfect. I just have a couple of 84 Yep. Please. Go ahead. You mentioned round sheets. Do you recall if here, at the MCC, in the SHU, the round sheets are kept at the end of each tier? Or_are they kept on the desk? MR. QM: They’re supposed to be kept at the end of each range. WR. MMM: So, as a lieutenant, at that point, when you made your, if you had made your rounds -- WR. MM: If I have seen the sheets on the desk, I would always tell the officers they need to be downrange, not on your desk. MR. : Okay. MR. : And I would not initial them, unless they were, I wouldn't initial them unless they were accurate. MR. : Okay. EFTA00114434

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wonnu wre . | MR. : So, on that note, then, when you would go into sign that document, would you always go downrange to grab it? MR. No. There was times where I would see it on the desk and I would be, like, these need to be downrange. MR. So, you're, when you walk into the SHU, you are supposed to walk downrange to do -- MR. MR. MR. MR. would -- MR. MBM: As of late, as of late, that is where they are now. It all depends on what shift, because the morning watch lieutenant, the overnight lieutenant, has those sheets already sent down to that person. MR. Uh-huh. MR. : In the thing, but you still have to go up and sign the round sheets anyway. Every shift, those round sheets have to be signed. Cause you have to ensure that the To sign it. : == to sign it there? Uh-huh. But oftentimes, that 87 want, for lack of better terms. Look, I’m (Indiscernible *00:59:40) I°1] call a spade a space. Right? If somebody is going to fudge around, it's easier for them to do it that way. MR, Uh-huh. MR. : Then if it’s downrange. If it’s downrange, you have to go downrange. MR. : Right. MR. : So, you’re going to look in each cell and then when you get to the end of that tier, that’s when you scribble your time. That’s why it’s easier for that round sheet and that camera to jive. MR. MR. MR. Uh-huh. Cause they’re downrange. Okay. Sorry. MR. Sorry. MR. No, no. And the point of the lieutenant signing it is not that the lieutenant did the rounds -- MR. QM: It's to make sure that the officers are doing what they're supposed to be. MR. : Okay. Do you recall any special instructions coming down from the Warden or the Captain, regarding Epstein? won nu wre officers are doing their rounds. ee round on August 9, 2019, should she have had to have gone downrange, especially on the range that Epstein was on? MR. If the round sheets were downrange. WR. QM: Right. And that’s where they are supposed to be? MR. a they’re supposed to be. MR. : Okay. And if they weren't, she should have notified SHU. Hey, you guys got to be keeping these down here? MR. m*. MR. : All right. And is the purpose of that, though, to ensure that people are doing rounds and that’s where it, when they sign that? WR. ME: Well, that’s where they’re supposed to be, for the sake of the officers, that’s, it's to prevent fudging the round . : Right. . : You know, if they're down on the desk, and you can just write whatever you 88 MR. MBM: Nothing as far as, like, that he was high-profile. You know. MR. : What was the, you mentioned instructions from Psychology, right? WR. QM: Uh-huh. which were basically the same, like, you know, he needs a bunkie. He is high-profile. MR. But there was no instructions, like you are never, as a lieutenant, there was no special instructions (Indiscernible *01:00:36). WR. QR: If he was a lieutenant move, our instructions were a lieutenant has to be present when he moved. So, a lieutenant has to escort him, that I recall. MR. a. That email you mentioned that you got. Who was that from? The mass email? MR. I believe it was from the Captain. WR. QR: We're going to go through all that. WR. BN: Or Correctional Services. I'm not, I'm not exactly sure who sent that out. WR. BB: Okay. EFTA00114435

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89 MR. QM: | It would be generated from all the department heads. MR. : Okay. That's it. That's all I had. MR. QM: Okay. But you're familiar with the SHU, correct? MR. :_ Yes. Yes. MR. : (Indiscernible *01:01:15) all right. Great. Looking at this camera angle, this is a still shot. Can you tell me what it is that we're looking at here? MR. QM: «This is the camera that’s up in, on the upper tier, by the 46 door, which is going into 10 South. This camera view right here is of the multipurpose area. These stairs right here, that you can barely make out, this would be § tier. Okay. : H tier. You can’t see L and M. J, K tier down there. This little shadow right here is the pipe, but that’s about all you can see of L tier. And then M tier is down those steps, and that’s the OIC’s station. MR. a. So, from this camera angle, this, if Epstein is in L tier, would you see a flash of movement, but you really wouldn't be able to see, judging from the way this picture is, you really wouldn’t be able to see much of the actual step climbing. MR. Okay. But could anybody get up to L tier without you seeing from this angle in the SHU? MR. Well, you would see them go this way. But whether or not they were walking towards the kitchen or going up to L tier would be hard to distinguish, just from looking at this. If the camera were there -- WR. QM: So, is this a blind spot? Could someone come from this way and go up L tier without you seeing? MR. : Yes. doubt. > Okay. : From, you could come from MR. MR. straight outside and then go up. MR. All right. And what, this staircase that is clearly visible, this is the officer’s station, right? MR. : Yes, MR. And right to the left of Yeah. Without a won nu wre 90 be able to see if people were going up and down L tier, from this camera angle? MR. You would be able to see a quick movement, but not the full, cause you can't see the steps. MR. ae Is there a way for them, over this way, to like, go over here and go up here without you seeing them come up, or is this so close -- MR. No, no, no. This is totally, this is elevated. This area right here, this is a staircase door. MR. Okay. MR. : This is an elevated position. You can’t, this camera would see staff coming up. MR. a Oh, but as far as this angle, though, could you, could you, if anybody was going up and down L tier -- MR. And if anybody was coming this way -- WR. BM: -- could you tell that from here? WR. QM: «= -- and going up, you would be able to, like I said, you would be able to 92 the officer’s station, what is that staircase going to? MR. ZZ going to J tier. MR. : Okay. Awesome. Can you, on this SHU map, so this first page is the first tier. MR. : Wait. Which, first tier? MR. So, this is the, we have the SHU layout. It’s not perfect, but this is what was provided to us. MR. : Yeah. Cause I’m trying to, all right, so -- MR. So, this is, like, for instance, you know, you will see the first letter is what the, so this is tier. It looks like this is M tier. And the second one, over here, this is the second floor, this is my understanding. Here’s J, L. MR. pl can barely see it. MR. : Yeah. Maybe that’s ff. I don't know. . : May I? . : Absolutely. This is, so, what I'm going to ask you to do is, from looking at this -- EFTA00114436

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wonnu wre 93 MR. | Okay. There it is. J. MR. : -- keeping in mind where the officers’ station is -- MR. : And this is L. Okay. MR. : -- and where this is, can you kind of point to me, can you put the location of where this camera is on here? Oh, shit. Looking down? Recreation. So, if you're looking at . , would be up here. : Right. So, like, the angle, Tike, you can put a circle, and I'm pointing towards, so I guess put a big circle where the officers’ station would be. WR. MBM: = A01 right. This is J tier. That’s right there. And there's the wall, right there, so, right there, this is L tier, going up and M would be down, yeah. That's right. So, this is basically where the -- MR. So then you can put OC in the middle. wR. MM: orc. 95 lieutenant's office up there. That's here, in the corner. And I think the camera is above the lieutenant's office. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, maybe like right here, maybe? I'm not 100% certain. But it should be, it’s somewhere over here, the camera and the camera pans that way. MR. —. Can you just put a star there and in that open spot next to it, just write camera? All right. Perfect. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? And then we're also -- WR. WBBM: Eight, today is the 4th, cause it’s my daughter’s birthday. MR. a. Oh, is it? Happy Birthday. Twenty-one. How old? Twenty-one. Oh, wow. Can you initial and date that that we're looking -- MR. Sure. Date it, too? MR. : Yes, please. All right. So, all right. Thank you. That confirms what 94 WR. QM: «For O1C, perfect. And then, so, if you're looking straight at this, this is that, can you put a star next to whatever, whatever staircase you're looking at in this video? Okay. This is J tier, right J tier. All right. J. And this is M. : Okay. I'm assuming that’s the one going down. WR. BM: Okay. Great. And then as far as, this is what you're looking at, right here, where would you believe the camera would be? MR. QM: © Judging from the way this is, it looks like the camera is panning from, like, here. That way. So, if this MR. : Oh, right. tier -- is, this is MR. : ff. MR. : == right, so, would it be, like, kind of over here? WR. WE: Here's the, this is the 96 this is, thank you. And this is someone else’s drawing. I just want to see, this kind of (Indiscernible *01:06:32) this is actually what we said here. Yeah, so it looks like, and this is everything. Cool. Now, was there, you said, you mentioned a bulletin board that had the hot list? Where would that be? WR. MM: Well, I can’t, right here, it’s hard to tell from that, but usually, the hot list should be somewhere right up there on the hook. WR. QM: «Okay, so this is the bulletin board here? WR. MM: Yeah. And there’s also, now, I don't, not then, but there was, there's, there was stuff up here, but not, I don’t believe it was a bulletin board. It’s a bulletin board now, if you go up there. ; 1 = All right. But there was, the hot list used to be right there. It should have been right there, by where the phone was. MR. a: All right. So, I’m going to write above it, B board. So this is where the bulletin board was? EFTA00114437

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wonnu wre . | MR : And you believe the hot list would have been on that, is what you're Saying? MR. MR. tier? MR. QM: | That was, those are the steps going up to J tier. MR. a. So I’m going to write J right here with an arrow going up. WR. QM: Uh-huh. And K tier would be the one going down. MR. —. And is that going down . : Yeah. . : Or over that way? MR : No. Down that way. There, to the left. WR. QM: Okay. But J was going up? Yes, : All right. And then I’m MR, MR. going to write up here, L tier would have been right here, going up? Yes. And this was, you said J 99 you're looking at this photo, is this a photo of L tier, going up? MR. :_ Yep. MR. : And would he be over here? MR. BM: «He would be the first cell, right, in this corner most, right here, is the shower. But right next to the shower is the first cell. WR. WM: So if you're walking up the tier, you open the door, he’s right to the right? MR. J: He's going to be the first cell to the right. MR. a. The first cell to the right. Okay. And I know you can’t really make out this. Do you have any reason to believe that wouldn't be his cell? MR. Well, I can’t even make out the number. MR. QM: Right. And then, you know, this is the tier. This is L tier, going down. Is this a camera, right here? MR. : Yes. MR. Is this camera supposed won nu wre 98 MR. | MR. : All right. So that's all accurate? MR. + Yep. MR. : Perfect. Okay. So, you said that this one also checked out, this looks exactly the same as where you were. Qh, do you know where Epstein was located? MR. : He was on L tier. MR. : And do you know where, like, in looking at this, where his -- : It should be right there. : That one? Can you put a, I don't know, a box in there, I guess, and put, yeah, JE or something there? MR. :_ JE. MR. : Perfect. Thanks. MR. : His cell could look right down onto the OIC desk. If he looked outside his window -- MR. i MR. foo at the officers. MR. Okay. And you already initialed and dated this. Great. So, if MR. MR. So he could see? he could look right down to be recording everything going on here? MR. : That’s supposed to be recording everything, facing this way. So, like, it would see you walk, it would see, if this is me, first person, coming up this way, it would film everything from the grill back to where it is. MR. And is this where the round sheet is supposed to be located? Yes, Is there, do you even see anything, where it could be? MR. QB: «It might be that speck right, no, that’s too high. It might be, there might be a little hole, I can’t tell. MR. But that's where it's supposed to be located? : Yeah. At the end of the -- Right underneath the gotten moved. I believe that right now, they’re down there, but they might, I think they were on the wall here, at the beginning of the tier or on the other side. I’m not 100% EFTA00114438

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wonnu wre certain. WR. WM: Okay. So, back then, they wouldn't have been at the end of the hall? They were probably at the beginning of the tier? WR. WE: «1 know at one point in time, they were, the clipboard was being rested on that coax_pipe. MR. a Would this be underneath L tier, or_would that be where it would be? WR. MBM: No. It’s always on the inside of the range. MR. —. Always on the inside? Okay. MR. :_ Yeah. MR. : So it would have been after you opened the range door, but not at the end of the hall at that time? WR. MB: «1 know I, like I said, at one point, they had it on the wall to the side, but at one point in time, they were putting the Clipboard, they were just resting it on that pine. As Tong as it was downrange, 103 and I don’ t, I didn’t tear up anti = Perfect. And I've been getting these rida from ou guys. Oh, you still do? Okay. Yeah. Do you still have, like, all te _— from back then and everything? No. I mean, anything that I had, t i just closed out of, but the thing is, I didn’t, I don’t even remember having any direct emails. All the official emails, like, I, like, sent them to my trash bin, like even these, I mean, this was just telling me not to destroy anything, and I didn’t destroy anything. M Okay. So, I didn’t save these. Okay. But as far as, so, did you “understand, like, as far as if you received an email pertaining to Epstein, were you supposed to save that, or could have you deleted that? 102 it needed to be downrange. WR. QM: So, even at that time, it Was supposed to be downrange? WR. MM: | They always have to be downrange. Okay. Yes. Per BOP policy? Yes. Okay. And this is just, so, we had to review a lot of emails and I see, this one, I think, was directed to you. It says, “BOP official legal hold notice for inmate’s death.” What was your, was your understanding of that not to destroy any documents? MR. :_ Yes. MR. : All right. Did you destroy any documents? MR. : No. Not at all. MR. : So you still have all your emails from then and everything? WR. QR: 1 don’t have anything. Like, I know the AUSA had my memo. I don't even have a copy of my memo. 104 WR. MM: «what do you mean? In, like, as far as_from staff? WR. MM: Yeah, like, for instance, this is another one that, I think this is the emai] that you would have received, regarding Epstein being required to have a cellmate from July 30, 2019? WR. MBM: 0h, yeah, yeah. I would get them and delete them. WR. SE: | A01 right. delete those? WR. MMMM: Yeah. And as long as I knew, you know, that was it. WR. MM: So, you didn't understand, like, this to mean, like, not to delete anything pertaining to Epstein? MR. : No, but the thing is, at least I never got anything like this, after it happened. WR. QM: «Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m talking about, like, prior to, I think that this is asking you to save anything that was related to Epstein, correct? MR. : Yeah, no. I get what that, you know, that, I didn’t think that that was No, these, So you would EFTA00114439

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wonnu wre 105 what it meant. Like these. These were just routine things. I thought it meant -- MR. a. Okay. Well, that came from yours. So, you didn’t, I was able to get it, at least. Okay. MR. : You may have deleted it, but my point being is, like -- MR. QM: Uh-huh. Well, 1 misunderstood, maybe. I’m thinking destroying means shredding. MR. a. But if you received an email pertaining to Epstein, you thought you could delete it? MR. : Yeah. I guess so. MR. : Right. Fair enough. MR. : There's, like, stuff like this, if it’s sitting in my trash bin. I don’t always empty my trash. I mean, anybody in the Bureau could pull those emails anyway. MR. a Okay. Let me see how -- MR. : Yeah, I thought it meant, like, physically, like, destroying stuff. Like, I wish I could even have a copy of my memo, but AUSA has it. 107 MR. MM: «Right. All right. So, yeah. So you didn’t actually read it, I’m assuming, like, where it says emails? That's the first thing it says. MR. : I probably mis, no, like, I remember the first one I received, I called the staff attorney. Iwas, like, what does this mean? And he was like, just that you're still, it’s still active. WR. GM: | Okay. Would you mind, just, anything we talk to you, it’s just initialing and dating. MR. pa No problem. MR. : It's just to say what it is what we looked at and talked about. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : And you already mentioned, you remember receiving this emai] from Psychology -- MR. : Yeah. NR. : fron i. i = WR. : Yeah. Or. J. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Yeah. WR. QM: «Cause, like, for instance, this says, “Please preserve all electronic files; example, emails or documents.” MR. QM: Right. I missed, I totally misunderstood. WR. | A01 right. misunderstood that? MR. : Yeah. Okay. : I wouldn't do it naliciously. MR. a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and that’s what I wanted to know -- MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : == cause a lot of people got this, so you're the first person I'm even asking about this. MR. Uh-huh. MR. : So I was just curious, it’s like, what is your understanding. So, did you not know -- WR. MM: Yeah. 1 thought it meant, actually, like, physically, like, destroying things, like, you know, in the shredder. WR. QM: «Saying that he was required to have a cellmate? : Have a cellmate. So you do remember that? So, you Okay, great. MR. Uh-huh. MR : And you knew he was required to have a cellmate? MR. : Yes. MR. : Do you mind just initialing_and dating that? MR. : Sure. MR. : Was that the same email that you mentioned before? Cause you mentioned that there was_an email from Captain WR. QM: I believe there was one, as far as when he, anytime he would be put as a lieutenant hold. This is the one I was talking about, like, Psychology would send out that, about having the cellmate. MR. + Oh. MR. : Thank you, sir. Now, as far as this, you said no one told you. So this is a_memo from, at the time, SOS WR. | Ub-huh. EFTA00114440

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wonnu wre a: a. 1 says, “Past information from Special Housing Unit.” It says, “On Friday, August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS : _ on to oncoming staff member, Officer and present shift staff, SOS I and Officer — that innate MMM was going WAB and possibly may not return. Also that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from his attorney visit.” Did you know anything about that? MR. :_ No. MR. seeing of this memo? MR. That's the first I'm seeing of it. MR. : All right. So, a couple things. First, if passed on to these people and those are the people that worked on your shift? MR. MMMM: Yeah. Yes. Is this the first you're Right here. . No, wait. What_does it say? No, was day shift. [BM was day shift. is the only one. MR. =, Okay. So, oncoming staff 111 MR. MM: I wasn't told. Like I said, I found out the day after it happened. Well, the day that it happened, when I came in. MR. : Now, on the second note of this, if knew that Reyes was WAB, should have he ensured that he got a cellmate prior to his departure, at 1:50 p.m.? So, if Reyes left at 8:38 a.m., WAB, into ff, he's keyed out of the system. Should a new cellmate have been assigned to Epstein, even prior to leaving? MR. It would have been prudent to do it as soon as possible. MR. : Okay. So, | og have then notified any, you know, , and it looks like Py during his shift, that, hey, we need to get Epstein a new cel lmate? MR. WE: «Anybody that was on that, that is mentioned there, should have been, if the knowledge got passed, it was never passed to the lieutenants. MR. Okay. But, okay. And then if the lieutenants knew, so, for instance, and MN, if BD told then, hey, should won nu wre 110 nenbers ME, WJ, and officer I, so let's see. When would have III been working on this, like, what -- . : 2 to 10. . : So, ME would have been Uh-huh. And the present ones were When would he have been working? MR. : HE would have only been working as -- MR. + Till 2:00. MR. : 2:00. So, if he told, before he left, 2:00, RIM, a. and | MR. : MR. : Right. Should any of those people have notified either you or 112 Reyes is gone, should have he notified them that he was WAB gone? Or, so, if he believed he was at_court, WiAB -- MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : -- and let's say, for instance, is the Ops, so he’s kind of like the boss, right? MR. Uh-huh. : If BB knew, yep, 1 MR. know Reyes is gone. I know he is Epstein’s cellmate. Is there any reason, and especially if he went WAB, is there any reason, any argument for to be made that, well, I didn’t know if he was coming back or not? MR. If he wasn't notified that he was WAB, it would, you wouldn't know. MR. : Okay. So, if he wasn't, if he didn't know he was WAB, it is an argument to be made to say, well, he could have come back, is that correct? MR. 1 Yes. MR. Okay. So, he would have had to have known that he was WAB? MR. If he didn't, he would have had to have known he was WAB, if he knew he EFTA00114441

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wonnu wre 113 wasn’t coming home, like, coming home, coming back to the jail. MR. a. Okay. All right. If he knew he was WAB, he should have acted and gotten him a new cellmate. If he didn’t know he was WAB, then it was okay for him not to issue him_a new cellmate? WR. WM: Yeah. If he didn’t know he wasn’t coming back or if he was even gone, he wouldn't know. That's why I said, if the white shirts didn’t get notified, we don’t know what’s happening. MR. —: Yeah, yeah. But you had, so, let me ask you separately. If says, yep, I knew Reyes was, I knew Reyes was gone. I knew Reyes was Epstein’s cellmate. And he didn’t know he was WAB. Was it okay for him not to have acted? WR. PE: No. not okay. WR. QM: But if he wasn't told that he was WAB, he was just told he went to court. MR. QM: I mean, at that point in time, I would have been a little worried that 115 there was_an issue, no. MR. a. Should have he told you that there was gone, being that it was Epstein, he was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was at court? vR. a: have notified me. MR. MM: «So, regardless if he was WAB or not, he should have notified you that was at least at court? WR. ME: At that point in time, so, see, this is where it's hard to tell. Look, when you're Operations Lieutenant, you're moving, you're working the entire institution. Yep. You're filling overtime. As you can see, Tilting that roster was a nightmare. . : Uh-huh. . : All right? You're doing this, you're doing that. You're doing a million things. Right? You may not even know that this guy even went to court. MR. - But if he says he knew? MR. : If he says he knew -- If he was told, it was If he knew, then he should won nu wre 114 he was alone, but you're talking day watch, there's constant movement. WR. GM: Well, if Epstein’s down in attorney visits until 8 p.m. -- MR. : Yeah. That's probably what happened Yeah. He's in attorney conference, thinking by the t time he goes back upstairs, this guy is coming back from court. Okay. I'm assuming. And what time did work until until that day? MR. : I relieved him at just about probably 2:00. MR. —a Okay. So, if he is saying, I knew was gone, but I didn’t know he wasn’t coming back, would that translate to mean he didn’t know he was WAB? MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. So, if he didn't not to know he was WAB, was it okay for tell you that Reyes was gone? WR. MBM: If he didn’t think that 116 WR. QR: «He says he knew he went to court. He just didn’t know that he wasn’t coming back. WR. QM: That's different. If he knew, if he said he knew, then something should have happened. WR. MR: So, if he knew he went to court, even if he says, I didn’t know if he wasn’t coming back or not, he should have at least notified you, though, hey, heads-up, Reyes is at court? WR. MM: Uh-huh. Yeah. Or it was just, or at least tell the OIC, like, listen, if Epstein comes back up and this guy is not back from court yet, make sure Epstein has a bunkie. “5 : Okay. You know, something should have be ut in place. a So, WEBI should have at least, Poy have notified either, should have notified, it sounds like, both you, as well as, in this case, who was the OIC at the time? MR. : Day watch O1C? [J , 5 So, iP EFTA00114442

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wonnu wre Wwonmnu wre MR. : SHU-1 is OIC. MR. :_ Okay. So, but even though , 50 a was the OIC, though, I think, for, like, the whole, is it always SHU-1? Cause I thought [I was just the OIC, like, in the SHU, I thought it worked that, like, was -- WR. SRB: Whoever is assigned as SHU-1 is the OIC. That's the OIC position. WR. MR: A01 right. Cause my understanding was that at this period of time, was known as the OIC of the SHU. MR. QM: If he, unless he is assigned, if he is assigned to SHU-1 -- MR. : Just SHU-1? MR. : -+ for the quarter, then you're the OIC. MR. : Okay. So, in this case, though, = = should have notified ? MR. | ae he knew. MR. : If he knew that, if he knew that he was at court, but again, wasn’t sure he wasn’t coming back, what should have he told HP 119 MR. QR: If he knew that, if he knew that he was going to not have a bunkie, I should have been, I should have known, being that I was coming on. MR. a. So, this is where I’m trying, just try to focus on my words. - 7 % m sorry. : Right now, I'm asking, if = - at court, but didn’t know that he wasn't coming back. He just knew that Reyes was at court, should have he told you? MR. : Yes. MR, : Okay. So, regardless if he was coming back or not, he should have notified you? MR. : Well, see, that's the thing. We don’t always, we don’t know who went to court until we do that roster of the movement. WR. QM: but if we talk to I, and he says, yep, I know Reyes was at court. MR. pi MR. : I just didn’t know if he was coming back or not. MR. i MR. : Should have he relayed 118 MR. QB: That make sure that if Epstein, when Epstein comes back from legal visit, he gets a bunkie. MR. a. Okay. And [J never informed you? : : Okay. And should have he informed you? MR. a. he knew -- MR. : If he knew that he was in -- that he wasn’t going to get a bunkie, I should have been told. MR. TO Great. But what I’m asking, sorry, I think we're confusing here -- MR. : If he knew that he was -- MR. : -- even if he didn’t know that he was, so, if his argument is -- MR. : Just the fact that he was out. MR. | Right. MR. : If he knew, yes, I should have been told. WR. QM: «So, if he knew he was at court, he should have let you know? 120 that information to you? wR. ME: Yes. the profile found. wR. : Okay. relayed that information? Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to Do you mind just initialing and Especially because of So, he should have get to that. date that? Uh-huh. And he did not, correct? No. Thank you, sir. remember, while we’re at it, do you remember in this case being rt shift says it ends at 2. Well, , she’s on an overtime shift. So, she doesn’t actually start until 4. . + Uh-huh. . : Is it okay, do you know if would have had to have stayed from 2 to 4 until he was -- WR. MB: Not necessarily. there's a lieutenant on the desk. WR. QM: «Okay. So, the fact that if you're, you know, either you or IM is Do you As long as EFTA00114443

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wonnu wre there, could have ended at 2? MR. :_ Yes, MR. : And there could be a gap from 2 to 4 with -- WR. GE: Yeah. common. MR. : Okay. MR. : You know. Especially when we didn’t have a regular lieutenant scheduled for the 2_to 10 activities. WR. WM: Okay. So, would you always get, as a lieutenant, especially as Ops and Activities, would you get the prisoner production lists? MR. : Yes. From i. MR. : And then was that something that you were supposed to review? MR. : It’s basically, if we needed it. MR. : Okay. MR. : Yeah. MR. : So, for instance, this one. It shows that it was dated Thursday, August 8, 2019, prisoner production for August 9, 2019. That was actually was sent to the lieutenants? Yeah. I pulled this from your . | I got it. . : So, I'm just, I’m curious, is this something that, like -- MR. QR: Transfer within doesn't, it don’t jump out at me, cause I’m used to seeing, like, pre-remove, pre-hold. MR. a, Okay. So, there’s the PP38 that_you were talking about. MR. Okay. MR. : It shows from 8/9/2019. Uh-huh. So that’s the daily log. Yeah. On the third page, it re-remove, 8:38." Yes. If he was just going -- That’s the time that he was keyed out of the institution. MR. QM: «So, if he was just going to court, would have he been listed to pre- won nu wre Uh-huh. It's from, it says -- Yeah, he used to work here. Now he works for the U.S. Marshals. MR. : Okay. MR. : Yeah. MR. : And then this is the attachment to it. Uh-huh. So, it says the second list down was Efrain Reyes. Are you able to tell from this at all what it was that was going on with Efrain Reyes that day? WR. QM: Sorry. That would probably be the time that he had to go down to court. : Okay. Down to fi. Does this transfer within mean an ? , MR. I'm not familiar. It doesn't say that on our stuff. MR. a. But this would have been what you got, right? This is the email that 124 remove? WR. MB: No. It would, I believe it would say SDNY or EDNY, or whatever, whatever court he was going to. eso pre-remove -- . + Uh-huh. : == does that assume that he’s not coming back? Yes. Okay. So, at 8:38 -- Now, that has changed before. Like, they've been pre-removed and then come back -- MR. : Okay. MR. : == because something got cancelled. WR. MM: «11 right. So, is this something that you got, like, as the Ops and the Activities Lieutenant, are you supposed to be kind of aware of this stuff? WR. MB: Well, we would get sent this, mainly, I hate to say this, there would be sometimes issues with the officers in the morning, getting the inmates out to court. , if it was listed as EFTA00114444

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wonnu wre 125 : os Okay. MR. : And they wouldn't have the actual court list, so if they had to call us and be, like, hey, I, you know, [i is calling for this guy and I would just bring this up, and be like, yeah, he’s on the list. But we wouldn’t study this. We would just, we were included in the Marshals loop, because we would be the supervisors. MR. —. Now, if he was actually being transferred to another institution -- MR. Uh-huh. MR. : -- would he be also listed on_the court list? MR. BBB: No, he would be on the moves for the day. MR. EE All right. So, here is an email from also the U.S. Marshals Service, from a -- MR. : Okay. MR. : == subject, “Transfer of Prisoners from NYM to GEO.” GEO. GEO. What's GEO? It’s the private jail. . | And then the 38 -- MR. : On the 38, see, like, CCT release, full-time release, FT release, or like you see here, the pre-remove status and stuff like that. MR. ME: «Yeah, so that’s kind of where we're trying to, we're trying to put these pieces together. Why would he be on an email here, saying that prisoner schedule report, listing him as court. Here, saying he’s being transferred, excuse me, to the GEO. MR. : GEO. MR. : And then on the 38, showing he's pre-removed. MR. : Yeah. I guess, I'm assuming, I could be wrong, this is just the way our computer, the way our system puts it in. Like, this right here, the FT release, that means this guy maxed out. He’s not going to, like, a halfway house or anything like that. Where is it? Pre-remove means he’s being transferred. WR. (MI: «Pre-remove means he's being transferred? MR. ME: | Transferred. 126 . i In New York? . : Yes. I believe it's in New I’m not sure. WR. QM: Okay. And this one is also dated Thursday, August 8, 2019. It says, “The following prisoners are to be transferred.” Here it says, “Reyes, Efrain.” And his reg number. “Please schedule a transfer for Friday, 8/9/2019." Do you know why he would be listed on this email, on August 8th, as well as a prisoner production on August 8th? Is there any -- WR. MR: No. No. the Marshals were doing. WR. MM: «Have you ever seen something like that before? MR. : What, moving an inmate? MR. : Well, so, on this, it says he’s going to court, right? MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : But on this one, he’s being transferred. MR. : Quite honestly, it’s, I know I've seen, like I said, like on the 38, I'm just going, I’m sorry, I’m going BOP-wise. That’s whatever it says 128 MR. QM: «And do you know if this thing next to him would be that transfer within thing? Would that be -- WR. QR: 1 don’t know. have, I can’t answer that. : Okay. . *01:29:42). Honestly, I Where’s that guy? officer says transfer -- Pre-remove. -- and he’s pre-remove. But these other guys don’t seem to say transfer within. So, is this something like, if this is being sent to the lieutenant, should you be able to look at this and say, like, transfer within, that means he’s out of here? WR. QR: Honestly, I can’t answer : : Okay. I have never looked, I have honesty never Tooked at that part. Okay. I have never looked at it. . So, when you receive this, do you, as the Ops Lieutenant, Activities Lieutenant, look at these things, these EFTA00114445

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wonnu wre Wwonmnu wre 129 prisoner production lists? MR. : I would glance at it, and I would see what it is, but I would normally, I’m not going to lie. I would put it off to the side, because I would only really use that if there was a problem with the officers getting the inmates to court. MR. : Okay. MR. And then, you know, calling the vestanaks over, saying, hey, I'm trying to get this dude down from 7 North, and they’re not sending him, and then I would look. MR. a All right. MR. : I didn't look at it every So, the fact that these are being sent to the MCC -- MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : -- saying he's transfer within here, and he’s here being, you know, this one is, the prison production list, and this one is being the transfer order for these two people. MR. | MR. : And then obviously at 131 BB staff. MR. ME: kay. So, MB gets the actual transfer notice. MR. Uh-huh. MR. : On this prisoner production list, it looks like, you know, Efrain Reyes saying that he’s leaving and it says a transfer within. MR. | MR. : As does the other person on this email. MR. : Yeah. MR. : This a -- MR. MR. » == BBB also says transfer within. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : None of the other guys seem to say transfer within. They all say, like, status hearing, sentencing, change of plea. All that kind of stuff. . Uh-huh. MR. : So, being that we got this going to MM, then we got this going to, also, custody, saying that, you know, he is 1 8:38, he is listed as pre-remove. 130 So, we're being notified that Reyes is leaving the institution. With these notifications from the U.S. Marshals Service, who should have acted? Who should have known, Reyes isn’t coming back? I mean, whoever saw it Who, is there somebody, like, that’ s responsible for, like, saying, like, all_right? MR. : Everybody in this address box gets it from the Marshals. It goes out at the same time. Sure. And that's what I mean, there’ slot of people there. MR. Yeah. And that’s the thing. MR. : There's a lot of people here, and there's less people on this one. MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : This one, it looks like it’s, does this look, can you indicate from the transfer email, can you tell at that time who those people would have been? MR. : Okay. Everybody here is the 132 being transferred within, is it the captain that should have known it? Is it, who is the one that should have said, like, yes, we know he’s leaving this institution. This is Epstein's cellmate. Who should have been able to take action on this? WR. MM: «1 can’t, I can’t, I don’t . : os You don’t know? I don’t know. I don’t know who would have been the main person responsible for it. I mean, I guess everybody, I guess it’s for everybody's eyes, but it wasn’t something that routinely got utilized. WR. MM: «Is this something that would have been, if this is a transfer within, this transfer notice, is this something that the SHU staff would have been notified of? Saying -- WR. : No. SHU -- WR. ME: «Cause they’re not on this. eR. a: it. SHU, I don't believe -- the COs were tagged on EFTA00114446

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wonnu wre 133 WR. QM: «But I'm saying, like, as far as, here's the, you know, whatever -- MR. Well, the inmates, whatever comes on that, whatever [J gets from the Marshals Service, they put out their own court list to the staff. MR. Huh. MR. : The officers get regular court lists generated. So those names of those inmates would get put on the court, the call out list. NR. Okay. MR. : And for the court list, and that court list gets handed out in the morning. MR. ae. Okay. So, as far as this, it looks like we know he’s being transferred, and now that we're seeing that these two guys that were being transferred are both listed on this prisoner schedule report as transfer within -- MR. Uh-huh. MR. : -+ what should I have done? Should have they, are the people that are listed on that court list, are they also the people that are being transferred to other MR. QR: «It would just say the inmate’s name and that he’s got to be in, it SayS a.m. court and p.m. court, from the last time I saw the actual court list. A.M. court, meaning he’s got to be down there at 6:30 in the morning, once opens. > Okay. : P.M. court would be afternoon. . | All right. . : And SHU gets that legal, that court list, just like every other housing unit. WR. «but again, it for instance, knows that he’s the one who walks him down to i. he walks Reyes down. He knows he’s WAB. Again, you're saying, you know he's WAB. He ain't coming back unless something gets cancelled. MR. MR. cancelled. MR. :_ Basically. . : All right. So, it sounds is the one who actually should + Uh-huh. Like a transport gets won nu wre 134 institutions? WR. BBB: No. Everybody on the court list, it would say exactly what they are. If they’re on the court list, it would say, you know, court. It would say, or, it would say, you know, WAB. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, and then they send that out to the housing units, including SHU. MR. : So, again, if, you know, going back to that memo, knows, it says, would it say WAB or court? Or both? WR. MM: I believe it just says, if it’s WAB, it would say, it would say, I think it says FT remove, or I’m not 100% sure. I haven't seen one in so long. MR. Okay. All right. So you're not exactly sure what it said, but -- MR. :_No. MR. : -- it's all the same document of the people they need to bring down that morning? MR. : Yeah, but it’s, all of this is not on that. MR. Right. have, at the very least, notified his superiors, hey, we need to get him a new cellmate. Is it okay that he has wrote this memo, saying, I passed it on. You know, I knew at 8:38 he was WAB, but I passed it on to the 2 p.m. people, make sure he gets a cellmate? MR. I don’t, like, can you, I’m sorry. WR. QM: «So, I’m just trying to figure out who messed up here. Cause obviously, Epstein’s required to have a cellmate. MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : We saw from that email. We know is being transferred. We know he’s gone. MR. + Uh-huh. MR : So, we know the day before it happens, there’s emails that go out. We know at 8:38, -_ listed him as pre-remove. He’s gone from this institution. However, Epstein never gets a new cellmate. MR. Uh-huh. MR. : Somebody doesn’t take action. So, what I’m trying to figure out is, EFTA00114447

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wonnu wre who should have taken action? WR. MM: =I mean, I don’t, I can't make that_decision. I don’t know. MR. QM: «As the Ops Lieutenant at the time, you can’t figure that -- MR. : I mean, as an Ops Lieutenant, I should have been told by somebody. MR. |: Right. MR. : I should have known about it. MR. | og Uh-huh. Al] right. And so, when is passing, would have known, though, if he were WAB? MR. : I should have been notified, truth be told, the way, I was brought up in this agency, I should have been notified by the OIC. WR. QM: Right. So, but you weren't on the schedule? Like, in the daytime? MR. : In the daytime, no. MR. : So that’s where, I'm not even focusing on you. MR. -* I get it. I get it. MR. : I'm focusing on the the OIC. WR. MR: A01 right. And do you remember, I know you said you didn’t know he transferred, but should his, you know, should you have known by these documentations, from this prisoner_report? WR. MB: If I had read that, well, this, I don’t, I have never seen this before. MR. : Right. This one. MR. : But that? MR. : From looking at it? MR. : Iwould just, from looking at it -- MR. | Would you even know? MR. : -- I don't remember, recall the transfer within. I would always only look at the names. And know that they have to be generated for a court list. WR. QM: Okay. So you just know these people are going to court? You don't even know that the transfer was (Indiscernible *01:37:52) the transfer? MR. : I don’t always know, off the top of my head, like, this guy is going here, this guy is going there. I just know they have won nu wre What should have knows, WAB? MR. : The OIC should have notified day watch Operations. MR. —. Okay. So, IM should have known, he should have been, he should have known, yes, he is WAB and he needs a new cellmate. . + Uh-huh. . : Then what should have he WR. MB: Made sure that he got a cellmate. WR. QM: © Should have he notified the captain? Or should have he just gotten him the cellmate? WR. MBM: He should have got on the, told the SHU OIC, hey, get, he needs a bunkie, ASAP. WR. MM: Okay. So, it basically falls onto the Ops Lieutenant to have, he needed to have taken that action? WR. WH: «To make sure that, ensure 140 to be presented so there’s no problems, like, I said, I would only really refer to that if | contacted me and said, hey, LT, this guy, I’m waiting an hour so far for this guy. Can you get on the office? And I'd look, okay, yeah. Hey, Jones, inmate (Phonetic Sp. *01:38:11) from 7 North, you know, you got to get him to court. Okay. . :_He’s on the court list. MR. : All right. So, and as the court list, does the Op, like, would have had that court list, saying, if it said WAB, would have he had that, , the Ops Lieutenant, have the court list? WR. MMM: Yes and no. Sometimes, the internal would drop a copy of the court list off to the lieutenant's office. Mainly, the main people that need it was internal, and the housing units. MR. : Okay. MR. And SHU. MR. : All right. So, the Ops Lieutenant isn’t actually provided a copy of the court list? EFTA00114448

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wonnu wre 141 . | not required. MR. : All right. Okay. mind just initialing and dating these? (Indiscernible *01:38:54). MR. BM: While you do that, the transfer email, the one that you signed, who was that from? MR. |g It’s from J. MR. : And you mentioned before, HE sed to work here? MR. : Yeah. He used to be BOP. MR. : Just to clarify. Was he working here during this Epstein time (Indiscernible *01:39:07). No, he was already gone. Okay. . He's from the Marshals Service. The Marshals Service. WR. MB: But before, he said he was working here, and now he’s, I just want to clarify for the record. MR. : No, he was -- MR. : Gone at that point? MR. : == gone long before that happened. Do you 143 whichever it is, this, I have to print out the daily log, the three daily logs from the midnight to 8, prior, the day shift, and the evening watch and there’s a thing that, and it gets emailed to the exec staff, the captain, and I believe it used to get emailed to the executive assistant, if I'm not mistaken. Okay. There was a certain amount of people on oe thing. MR. I: “But is it supposed to be done, basically, the morning, the morning watch shift ends at 6 a.m., correct? MR. + Yes, MR. : So it's supposed to be, like, sent out before 6 a.m.? Yes. . All right. So, I have these emails from Tuesday, August 6, 2019. This one was sent at 5:16 a.m. The next one from August 7th was sent at 5:03 a.m. For some reason, I wasn’t able to look at Thursday, but Friday, August 9th, was sent out at 5:11 a.m. And then Saturday, August 10, 2019, it wasn’t sent out until almost, it says almost 9:30 a.m. won nu wre 142 . : Thank you. Thank you. . :_ This too? : Yes, please. The other way, you can them in order. Thank you. MR. These too? MR. : We're going to keep them, just so if we have to refer to them. MR. Okay. MR. : That's easier. All right. So, what time is the daily activities report and the lieutenant’s log usually sent out in the mornings for the day before? MR. QM: It's done on the morning shift. WR. GM: So is it always supposed to be done before 6 a.m.? WR. QM: Yeah. As the morning watch lieutenant, I have to make sure that before my shift is done, I send out the whole thing, and that’s the roster, cause if you look at the back, the last person to sign it is the evening watch lieutenant. : Okay. I now, as the morning watch lieutenant, you know, the 10 to 6 or 12 to 8, 144 9:26 a.m. Do you know why, any reason, why that could have happened, if, if (Indiscernible *01:41:21). MR. : You know what? It might have been because she didn’t go home at the end of her shift, because that kicked off. WR. MMMM but if that didn’t kick off until 6:33 a.m. -- MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : -+ her shift, she says she, the person relieved her by 6 a.m. -- MR. ae MR. : == at 5, so somewhere between 5:30 a.m. and 6 a.m. -- MR. + Uh-huh. -- is there a reason why she wouldn’ t have sent it out before her shift I don’t know. You don’t know? No, I don’t know. All right. And then the next day, though, the next couple of days, Sunday, August 11th, it actually doesn’t, isn’t sent out until 6:15 a.m., and then the day EFTA00114449

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wonnu wre 145 after that, August 12th, it actually isn’t sent out until 6:36 a.m. WR. MMM: Yeah. It all depends on, like, what, like I said, I mean, that's a different story. That was an emergency situation, but there’s things, other things that happen. You get tied up. You got to get pulled, you know, got to go see the captain. You got to go, you’re in MM, dealing with something, and then you don’t get to close out. Especially if you're doing a double, too. MR. a. Okay. So, in this case, though, in these cases, like, for the morning watch Ops Lieutenant, do they sometimes get relieved and that’s when they work on, oh, I got to get all the, I got to get the activity, or I got to get the daily log and lieutenant's log up-to-date now? MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : And then stay behind to do that? WR. BM: «As far as, well, after you're relieved? MR. |: Yep. MR. : It does happen. 147 MR. I: | A11 right. Thank you. Now, here is the one that we were just talking about, that sent out on Saturday, August 10, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. As you'll see, this is August 10th. So I just want to draw your attention to a few things. Friday, August 9th, that starts at 12 a.m., then we get to 8:30 a.m. On this daily activities log, it shows at 8:38 a.m., Reyes, from the SHU, or from 206-220 UAD to pre-remove. Who would have filled that out? Do you know? The Operations Lieutenant. At the time? Yeah. Day watch operations. : All right. So, is it should have called and told the Operations Lieutenant, hey, this person is pre-removed and that’s how, how would they get that information? MR. QM: No, well, normally, we would do a 38. WR. MM: Okay. So, as in, that, he would have been entered in the system at that time, saying remove? MR. : Uh-huh. That would, yeah, MR. i Right. MR. : You know, you can’t, the bottom line is, as a lieutenant, you should not be leaving and leaving stuff incomplete. MR. — Okay. And it’s that Ops Lieutenant's meron ity to complete it? Yes. And then once it’s completed, are they then supposed to send out, send it out to everybody? wR. WE: Yes. Operations Lieutenant -- NR. : Right. MR. : == is the one that sends out the paperwork. The daily paperwork. MR. QM: «0 A11 right. So, the fact that, if something wasn’t sent out before 9:30, does that indicate to you, you know, you, well, it’s because she hadn't finished it yet, so she stayed behind in order to finish it? MR. QJ: That definitely could be the The morning watch Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? MR. : Sure. and then, cause as the inmates leave the institution, this has to get updated. MR. : But wouldn't, I mean, we do have the 38 that I showed you at 8:38, but would this be [J doing that, or the Operations Lieutenant? WR. MBB: No. The day watch Operations Lieutenant would print out a 38. Okay. To do this. : : Okay. . : Basically, we would read off . BB. So, would only, so, a this specific thing from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., this the res a of, for instance, in this case To be able to ae at h operations. Yes. oe could, should could anyone es | , like, you or even oor who sent this out -- MR. : Anybody could go back in and update the log. : And is that a problem, if EFTA00114450

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wonnu wre 149 they do that? MR. BB: 1 don’t know. it is, but I don’t -- MR. QM: «No, no, no. I'm not, I don’t know that it’s a problem or not. WR. WE: No, we, we, we, it’s common practice. It’s like, if, you know, we could go back and correct, cause this way, look, also, if an incident happened on day watch, I’m not talking about this incident. If, let's say, there was _a use of force. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : And that day watch lieutenant is running the use of force team, the oncoming lieutenant could, like, update the log, so that lieutenant could finish what, you know, he or she was doing with the move. WR. MM: Okay. But in this case, I guess now at 8:38, now, he’s listed as pre-removed right here. . | MR. : Who do you believe would have entered that? MR. QM: It should, in my opinion, it would be the day watch Operations Lieutenant. 151 MR. I: «So, if someone after this shift did this, would they have to, like, is there a way to just kind of enter a line in here to do, you know, extra? How would they modify this? Would they have to modify everything or can you just enter in -- No. You could add a space. Add a space? Add a space. . : And then do (Indiscernible *01:46:31). MR. QM: And then just enter the time and enter it then. WR. BM: «And as far as you're concerned, that’s actually not an issue, if they go back and correct something or -- WR. BM: Not that they go back and correct. If you go back and have to add, because now you're involved in the thing. Like, let's say if I was coming on and you were the day watch Operations Lieutenant, I was the evening watch, and I’m relieving you. a Right. . : And you’re like, hey, we got a use of force going on upstairs. Right? I 150 MR. QR: «And then, again, if it’s listed as pre-removed, would they have known, hey, Reyes is gone? He's not coming back. MR. : That should be an indicator, yes. MR. —., Okay. And again, that would have been , 50 MM entered this and it actually says, pre-remove. Hey, Reyes is gone. Epstein needs a new roommate or cellmate? MR. | a MR. : All right. Do you remember anything regarding, I know this is at 3:15 p.m., but it says, — placed on dry cell from ZA." Do you remember anything involving that? MR. | do not. I don’t recall. MR. : All right. I'l] show you some emails later. But, this, again, do you believe that would have been the Ops Lieutenant that would have entered that? WR. MM: Yes. Only a lieutenant is doing this log. MR. a Okay. MR. : That’s the lieutenant’s log. 152 got to go run the team. Can you just finish my log? That_kind of thing. MR. : Okay. MR. : You know? Not so much go back to dot another lieutenant'’s I’s and cross another lieutenant’s T's. MR. i Okay. MR. : Just like piggyback off of one another. MR. : Okay. MR. : And I’m sorry, I have to keep leaning in, cause I don't have glasses. MR. : No, no, no. I’m sorry. I'm sorry. So, 3:15, there’s this, and this is where the confusing part is. We're not sure who exactly, so this was your shift. MR : Uh-huh. MR. : So, would have this top part been something that you would have added, or then brought over? It does say it up here. So, does this all just get transferred from this space over to here? WR. MMMM: Yes. Uh-huh. And then, anything then has to be added or added or taken away. EFTA00114451

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wonnu wre 153 MR. a”. So, on this one, it says, “ , dry cell with staff in Pl " It says, “Good verbal count announced.” Now, this is where it starts getting a little tricky, because we have to -- WR. WM: Uh-huh. Yeah. I had gone home almost at 10:00. This is where, like I said, where the piggyback would be. MR. : would go, just and close out, because she would be the one here, when the clear count took place. MR. I: «Okay. So, this is where things get a little whacky, because we’re saying, it looks like somebody would have possibly modified this, especially, see, look. This one is Saturday, August 10, 2019. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : Starting at 12 a.m., Lieutenant assumes duties. The SHU says 73-5. Well, at 12 a.m., it actually came over as 72-5. At 12:35 a.m., minus one SHU correction, , dry cell. [I was not keyed out of SHU -- MR. GE: Uh-huh. do that, though? . :_I can’t answer. . : If it came over as 73-5, and this list is listed at 72-5, does that make any sense to do that? MR. BB: No, I would want to go back and verify everything, because then if the count is not right. I would want to ensure that the count is right. WR. GR: | A01 right. over the counts then. MR. QM: «1 can’t really answer the question, though. I don’t know why it was done. MR. a here, just to close the loop with , here is, so, for instance, here is a, to the lieutenants, it says it's from (Phonetic Sp. *01:50:02) So, let's go PA, physician’s assistant. . Okay. So, it says, you know, inmate name. Here is another one that's from the captain to you, asking you to use a specific form. It looks like this is a synopsis from [MMMM on what actually, I guess, 154 MR. QR: -- until 12:35, although he was removed at 3:15 p.m. We're going to get into the counts now, but all these counts are off. That's not what the counts were. MR. + Uh-huh. MR. The counts were actually plus one for all of these, although they should have been, these should have been the accurate numbers, but they weren't. Huh. It came over, on the counts, “these are listed as 73, 73, 72, 74, 75, . | one more. . : Right. And it’s because this was corrected to go back down to 72-5, and this was 73. So, I’m just trying to piece this together. Would that be, why would have she done that, if she has got listed that there was this correction, why would have she gone back and changed al] that stuff? WR. MM: =I don't know. Maybe cause she didn’t want to go back and change it. I don't know. I can’t -- WR. WE: Does that make sense to transpired. MR. + Uh-huh. MR. I'm assuming maybe you sent it to him or . So, here is one that J sent to you on Friday, August 9, 2019, at 6:07 p.m. And this is the, you know, synopsis of what happened. “On August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:40 p.m., SOS , While assigned to the Special Housing Unit, proceeded to enter the 9 South visiting room. As I walked towards the door, I observed through the visiting door innate {MEIN attempt to grab an unknown item from his visitor. Once inmate reached to grab the item, I (Indiscernible *01:50:55) the door and called for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the visiting room, I gave inmate a direct order to walk to the visiting room to conduct a visual search. Inmate — complied and a visual search was conducted. Operations Lieutenant was contacted and inmate was removed from the unit.” So, should have this been listed as 3:15 p.m., or should it have been listed as 1:40 EFTA00114452

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157 p.m.? Do you know? MR. : No, the 3:40 p.m. would be the time that he was placed on dry cell. MR. > Okay. MR. : Would not necessarily be the time of the incident. WR. GR: | A01 right. where he did the visual search -- MR. MRM: This is the time, this is the time of the incident. MR. :§ -- but not the time, This is the time of the incident, dry All So, this, okay. cell would have been a different thing. right. Do you remember, I mean, do you remember at all that incident on that day? MR. QM: I don’t recall. It happened so often, so. wR. QM: Sure. Now, would HMM, it says that he sent you this at 6:07 p.m. Would have he sent this to you from inside the institution? WR. MM: Yeah. It would have been from the computer. Email. MR. —. Okay. So, if he’s not listed on anywhere. He’s listed as leaving at 159 MR. SY: Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? Sorry. MR. : No problem. MR. : All right. Now, here's the inmate history move. Just to, so, again, close that loop. So, it shows , here are his inmate history quarters. And it shows (Indiscernible *01:53:05) : -- that on 8/2/2019, he was as brought to the SHU, Z, and then it shows on 8/10, right next to it. Yeah, I'm just, just give me a second. So, yeah, then it says that 8/10/2019, at 0035, that’s when he was moved over, I guess, to, what does that stand for? That's the I cells. So, RO1 is the I cells? Uh-huh. So, that’s when he was keyed out of the system, at 0035. Which does correspond to that, 12:35 a.m. MR. MM: Yeah, he was probably never punched out, and they, somebody probably ghost- won nu wre 158 1:50 p.m. Is it, we're able to tell where ae: WR. MBM: That's odd. That is very odd. MR. QR: And it all makes sense that he was there at 6:07, because all these inmates’ emails are going back, you know, use this one. That was at 4:38 p.m., from the captain to you. And from the PA was the one at 3:11_p.m. So, I’m trying to figure out, why was a: at 6:07 p.m.? MR. : That’s very odd. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. No? I don’t recall. But that would have had to have been sent from in here? Especially from an officer, right? R. MMMM: That's, yeah. An officer doesn’ i have the outside email access. I didn’t, as_a lieutenant. WR. SE: | Right. definitely here at 6:07 p.m.? MR. : If that came through at that time, that’s on the government computer. So he was counted him. WR. MR: Okay. So, do you mind just initialing and dating that? Thank you, sir. All right. Now, we're going to go into these, just while these lieutenant sheets are up, kind of go into some of these counts. All right. So, here we got the 8/9/2019, Federal, or, sorry, Bureau of Prisons count sheet. This is the E-1, correct? Yes. And on the E-1, at ZA, what does the nunber 6 show? MR. 77. MR. : All right. So, 77. Let's go back to this guy and see what the number says. All right. So, it looks like 77. Okay. Now, what does the /5 mean? 10 South. 10 South? Wait, what, I’m sorry, what? So, this /5? Yeah, that’s 9 South/10 South. WR. SR: | A01 right. daily, on the daily lieutenant’s log, it shows So, on the EFTA00114453

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wonnu wre 161 77/5, and on the E-1, it shows 77 for ZA and 5 for ZB. And we go, we look at the corresponding count slip for ZB. It says 5. For ZA, it says 77, correct? MR. i MR. : All right. Mind just initialing and dating that? MR. - that the 5A one? MR. : SA, yeah. All right. Thank you, sir. Okay. So, now this is where we start getting a little bit into the weeds here. So, this is the 4 p.m. count, correct, on August 9, 2019? + Uh-huh. All right. So, the E-1 shows for ZA, there is, it says for the census column 76, for the count, 75. And is that because one is -- MR. WEB: One is keyed out, right here. Look. Right here, one is from attorney conference. This Atty right here? MR. : Yep. MR. : Is attorney conference, so you had one out count and two attorney conference. 163 MR. SM: «A101 right. So, that’s correct, then? MR. :_ Yes, MR. : Based upon that? MR. : Yep. MR. : All right. Do you mind initialing and dating? MR. : Just a question on that. Keep in mind, you started off the day at 77. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. :_ Efrain Reyes was removed. We'll get into that. 74, Yeah, I'm just, what's . | this be 74? . : I'm just, I just want to know, according to this, cause we can go back to things. MR. + Okay. MR. : All right. So, here is the 8/9/2019. It shows, this is for the 10 p.m. count. So, this ZA says 73 and 73, correct? WR. BE: Yes. MR. QM: So, Epstein is in attorney conference. We got one there. So, inside the SHU should be 75, correct? 1 Yes, All right. So, for the 4 p.m. count, (Indiscernible *01:56:10) count in progress, it shows there should have been 75 or should, this said 76. What should that have said there? MR. :_If he was keyed out -- MR. : So, looking at this E-1 - WR. QM: |The £-1 is showing that he was in attorney conference. MR. a. Right. So, should this number on the lieutenant’s log have said 75 or 76, based upon this? Should it have said this, 76 number_or should it -- MR. : It's whatever this is. MR. : So, this should have said 75, as of this -- . :_ Yes. Yes. MR. : All right. Now let's go look at the corresponding. ZB shows 5. ZA 75. wR. 75. 164 WR. I: «All right. So, the 10 p.m. count, good verbal announced. What does that say? MR. : 72. MR. : 72, so the daily lieutenant’s log says 72 here, but this says . Uh-huh. . : Okay. Do you know why that would be? WR. QM: 1 don’t know. There might have been somebody, math was messed up, as far as the lieutenants. As long as this is right, and this jives with the officer’s counting in the units, that’s what matters. That means we don't have an escape. This, you know, people, I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world. MR. : Okay. MR. : You know, you make a, what's the word, an arithmetic mistake. WR. MM: Sure, sure. Do you believe, though, this would have said 73, since this over here says 73, on the next day? WR. MM: =I mean, it should. If there EFTA00114454

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wonnu wre 25 was no movement. MR. a: Right. : Between the evening watch MR. and the morning watch. MR. a Right. And we'll go through the numbers, like you were just Suggesting, later. I'm just trying to correlate what this says, what this says, with what this says. MR. > Uh-huh. MR. : You know, so they are different numbers here. All right. So, the fact that this says on it? MR. Uh-huh. MR. : Would that mean that he would have been the one that actually takes the count? WR. MBB: He was the one that took the count. MR. So, even though, when we go back before you said that, I think you said that Control 1 would have been doing the keys and all that stuff. MR. : Uh-huh. . : And MM, did 167 MR. I: Al] right. So you're gone now. So here’s MM. We get.1. But on the, where would it have shown [i on this? MR. Wherever he was keyed out of. MR. QM: «Would it have been this RA? MR. QM: Yeah. It should have been ZA. It should have been somewhere over here in this column. MR. All right. So, we got no, we got_a count slip for a 1, MR. Uh-huh. MR. But nothing on the E-1, saying there was anybody in there. And then we've got ZA, 73. So, this one says 95 plus 1, on top of the 1, and then we go over to the ZA count slip. Or not, sorry. 9 South plus 1. 9 South plus 1. Sorry. . That's why, they ghost- counted him from 9 South in a MR. All right. So, if you read this, this one says, for ZA, says 73 plus 1. won nu wre pronounce that? MR. . MR. : would have been, but looking at the actual E-1, it looks like HBB actually took the count? MR. : Yeah. Well, at 10:00, though, nobody is coming in or out, except basically whoever is on 2 to 10. : Okay. : And also at 10:00, he’s WR. QM: 0h, he’s alone? So, HE is not there? Yeah, cause [MI goes home All right. So, is there. Who was the one on the 4 p.m.? MR. H ? MR. : Okay. [RBBB did the 4 p.m. Okay. So, is the one who did the 10 p.m. All right. Now we’re on the same page. Now we’re going to look at the corresponding count slips. You would have been gone by this count, correct? MR. Yeah. 168 MR. : Yeah, plus 1. MR. : Does that mean that that actually should be 74, if they're saying plus 1? WR. MM: Unless that’s the plus 1, I don’t know how they did the numbers. How they did the math. MR. Okay. Have you ever seen anything like this before? Plus 1s? MR. I've seen them ghost- counting. WR. QM: «Have you seen plus 1s on our count slips? MR. :_ No. MR. : All right. What about the fact that -- MR. QB: Cause honestly, in 21 years, this is the first time I’m seeing a plus 1 ona count slip. MR. a. Okay. So you have never seen a plus 1 before? MR. :_ No. MR. What about, have you ever seen anything where every single count slip is crossed off, aside from these two? EFTA00114455

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wonnu wre 169 WR. WM: Yes. I don’t know about these two. I know as, when you're taking the . : Yep. . : -- I normally, that’s how we get the clear count. MR. Sure. MR. : When we do the good verbal by, what we do is, we make one line. When the unit officers call -- On the E-1, right? : == we make the one line on Once I get all the paper, cause what we'll do is, like, once I have a good verbal, I do the one line and I see every unit has got a good verbal. That’s when I tell Control, we got a good verbal count at whatever time. And then we say, awaiting paper. And once internal brings down all the count slips, whoever that person is that’s taking the count will have those count slips in front. Not everybody does it. Ido it. Iwould, I'ma crosser. And what I do is I verify everything and that’s when I make my X on the E-1. MR. a. Does this suggest 171 MR. |: All right. And it was -- MR. : If the lieutenant was in there, she would, her name would be here. MR. : So who would have taken over for you? You said you only worked until 10? . | & worked until 10. . : So who would have taken over at 10? HE velieved me that MR. night. VR. I: «So, HY would have relieved you at 10? MR. : And then she worked until 6 in the morning. MR. —: Okay. So, she didn’t start at midnight. She started at 10. Okay. MR. Yeah. That's why I was saying the Ops Lieutenant, we used to do the two hour differences. MR. So, is it possible that HE actually took this count? MR. :_I'm trying to, may I? MR. Yeah. Absolutely. Are you able to even tell -- won nu wre 170 anything to you, though, the fact that every one of these count slips is crossed off, aside from , where there is no one actually on the E-1 -- MR. : And SHU. MR. : == and then SHU, which has the 73 plus 1, on the E-1, it says 73. On the count slip, it says 73 plus 1, but on the daily log, it says 72. Any, does that indicate anything to you, the fact that those aren't crossed out? MR. QM: The only thing that jumps out at me is that it might have been somebody else that did these two count slips versus these. MR. : Like someone who was taking the count, like JP? vould would have been the person that, like, crossed these things out? MR. crosser or not. MR. But who, if it wasn't HBB, who would it have been? MR. QR: | At that point in time, it was only him in Control. I don’t recall if he was a 172 WR. MMMM: She did take it. This is her signature. All right. So, MR. took the 10 MR. prepared the count. : Okay. . This is her, this is her loop in there, taking the count. MR. : All right. So, took the 10 p.m. count. Okay. And then, this is where, so, can you tell from this E-1 on August 10, 2019, at the 12 a.m. -- WR. | this is 3:40. MR. : Sorry. Oh, no, So, you're saying the 12 a.m. count, no, no. al right. Not the 10 . HB: The 10 p.m., IB did by himself. . EE. took, so, forget Yes I'm sorry, the time is, I EFTA00114456

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173 WR. QM: Yeah, absolutely. So, HMMM did the 10 p.m., the ones that have the count slips with the 9 South plus 1, and the 73 plus 1. did the 12 a.m. count. MR. : 12, yeah. MR. : And the 12 a.m. count is the one where it goes from the E-1 at 10 p.m., the day before, with 73, the 12 a.m. E-1, is 72, and now let’s go to the corresponding count Slips. ZA, what’s the number on that? MR. + 73, MR. : 73. So the count slip says 73 for 12 a.m., but the E-1 says 72. Yeah. Can you think of why that would be? MR. MM: Like I said, the only thing that comes to mind is a ghost count. WR. QM: Okay. Then the RA stil] says 1, though. Can you ghost count someone if they’re putting in count slips for 1? MR. : No, cause then there would be, it would be off by plus 1. MR. QR: And then i now has 1 in there, correct? 175 lieutenant only has to do one count on a shift. MR. a. Sure. And is there any indication that anybody on here did anything, other than MR. I: No. That's his -- MR. : Okay. And then again, ZA says 72, 72. 7B? 7B says 5. And RA says 1 Uh-huh. : And again, there are the corresponding count slips now. The count slips for ZA do say 72, and ZB says 5, and the RA says 1. Same thing with the -- MR. 5 a.m, MR. : == the 5 a.m. count. Same deal. We don’t need to go into the rest of them for this. So, does this indicate to you for all, does this indicate anything to you for all of this? Does it indicate that they weren't conducting their counts at all? Let's take this out of the picture and let’s directly focus on the E-1 and the count slips here. The fact that at the 10 p.m. count, they’re listed . : One, yeah. . : So, 72 in ZA, 1 in RA. This is, this is jiving with this. That’ S working. MR. QR: Now it’s working, here it wasn’t. WR. WE: From what I understand. From what_I’m, the way I’m reading it. MR. a. Right. Have you ever seen anything like this before? MR. a. I have never seen plus 1s written on the count slip. WR. QM: «Plus, what about count slips that_aren’t corresponding with what's -- WR. MBM: 1 have seen staff, but normally, you have, you call that unit officer and be, like, hey, I need a new count slip. The count slip is wrong. That I have seen. MR. : All right. MR. : Plus 1s, I have never seen. I have never seen anybody write a plus 1 on a count slip. MR. : Okay. And then 3 a.m. again is a Does this mean that -- MR. : (Cause he’s alone, yeah. A 176 73. The count slip says 73 plus 1. And then the 12 a.m. says 72. Count slip says 73. And then on the daily lieutenant’s log, the guy, , is keyed out at 035 hours, because he was keyed into the SHU the whole time. . Uh-huh. : And then everything is, from that point forward, is corrected to 72. So he was never present in the SHU. We have got the 10 p.m. and the 12 a.m. counts, we both have count slips for, saying that he’s there in RA, and somehow, their numbers, there is only 72 people in the SHU. So the count slips are showing 73 people. There's only 72 people in there. The E-1 at 10 p.m. says 73, even though there's only 72 people in there. MR. + Two. MR. : The E-1 at midnight does show 72, but that’s only because at 12:35 -- MR. : It was corrected. MR. : It was corrected. And the count slip says 73, although there were only 72 people in there. Does that indicate to you that the people in the SHU were just basically going off of what the E-1 should have EFTA00114457

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wonnu wre said, versus counting it themselves? WR. BBM: «It's possible. I mean, I know that they are charged with falsifying documents. MR. : Yep. MR. : I know they say that they did not conduct a count, so I guess so. I guess that’s what they, I don’t know. MR. GM: How would have they gotten the number 73? So, 73 is what is on the . Uh-huh. . : There is only 72 people in the SHU. But they’re listing 73 on the count slip. MR. : It could have been easily, in my opinion, it could have been easily as they were going off of the SHU locator, and the locator wasn't corrected. What’s the SHU locator? It’s basically a chart with the cell assignments and the inmates names and numbers written in it. So, basically, you have what inmates are in where. Right? MR. WE: So, it’s like a document? 179 MR. MB: Not to the locator, no. That’s a SHU thing. MR. a. All right. And then some people in the SHU could have had access to, what are the people in the Control utilizing? MR. : Control have the E-1 access. Lieutenants have an E-1 access. All right. Not everybody has full Sentry access. WR. HE: A11 right. So, going to this 10 p.m. count, do you know if, so who, on the ZA count slip, it says [IMM and Noe1, correct? WR. MM: That's definitely J. Yeah, Noel, all right. I don’t know what I’m looking at. I'm sorry. I don’t have my readers. : Sure. N-O-E-L, yeah. : Do you know if either of these people would have had access to this E-1 data? vk, a: it. I do not know if they had 178 WR. QM: It’s not, like, an official BOP thing. It's something that was brought, it’s like made in Word. It’s basically like, almost like a blueprint. But it’s of, it will have the cells, and it will state what names, like, the SHU staff use it to also, when they’re doing the showers, right, they'll mark off who got their showers. MR. : Okay. MR. :_And everything like that. MR. : Is that something that only the SHU staff has? MR. QM: That’s only, that’s upstairs. Unless you're -- MR. a. Does the E-1 people, does Control have access to that? Not everybody has access to So, the thing, though, that, if they’re using this thing that you just, what did you call it again? MR. :_ The locator. MR. : So, if they’re, the SHU staff is using a locator, does the people in Control have access to that locator? You don’t know? I do not know. Okay. Computer Services would have a record of who has access to what on Sentry. WR. GM: 1] right. Fair enough. And do you know anything about them falsifying their counts? . : I do not. . : No? Like I said, I only know what I have read and what I hear. WR. QM: Okay. And what have you heard? WR. QM: «The same thing that you, they’re being charged with. I heard that they were Sleeping and they didn’t count and -- MR. —. Had you heard at all that either the 4 p.m. or the 10 p.m. counts weren’t conducted? WR. GR: No. counts. wR. SR: | A01 right. midnight, 3, and 5? MR. : Yes. I heard the overnight So just the EFTA00114458

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wonnu wre 181 MR. QR: «But you hadn't heard about the 4 or 10? MR. BM: «I was told that at 10:00, not that I was told, from what I heard, at 10:00, he was alive. WR. WE: Okay. Again, though, going back to this lieutenant -- MR. :_ Do you want me to sign this? MR. : Yeah. I’m going to have you do that now. Going back to these lieutenant logs, do you know why, how that could be off, too, though, if the E-1 and the count slips are all saying 73 at 10 p.m., why would they be writing 72 here? MR. : Honestly, I don't know. Like I said, some people are better in math than others. It could be just a simple arithmetic mistake. WR. QM: «But do you think that being that it came over as 73 is the one that corrected being out, and then she doesn’t send the activities report daily log out until 9:30 a.m. Do you think that she would have gone back in there and maybe she just -- 183 not covering up anything. And at that point in time, once that happened in the morning, she wouldn't have been able to do this anyway, cause the FBI was already here, taking everything. MR. a. Well, if someone says that at 9:30, well, this is all, this is all done electronically, right? She sent this out electronically? MR. : You get, have to email that, yes MR. understanding that this is actually created in, like, a Word document, that is in a shared folder? MR. QM: It’s in the shared folder. It’s in, but only lieutenants have access to Right. And is it my Right. : And the captain. MR. : So, if someone is in that shared folder, and they can tell, someone is modifying that thing right now, and it’s at, like, 9:30. WR. WBN: «0h, well, that’s the thing. 182 . | don’t know. I don’t know. MR. : Would have she been authorized to do that? WR. MM: No. I don’t know. I can’t answer that question. I have, I'm not -- MR. a. But you had mentioned that people can go in and (Indiscernible *02:11:57). MR. : It can be done. You can go back and do it. MR. : Now, should she have? MR. : No. Not that I know, unless she saw that, unless she was trying to make the correction, to make sure that everything was right with the count. MR. : And that’s what I mean. MR. : Which we, you know, we all try to look, you know, to better, at the end of the day, remember, accountability is the most important thing. MR. a Yeah, yeah. MR. : So, we would try to make sure that it’s there, and it’s not to, like, cover up or anything like that, cause at this point in time, nothing was wrong. So, you're 184 But if there is, only one person can be in there at the time. NR. : Right. MR. : If I try to go into that log program and another lieutenant was on it, I wouldn't be able to. WR. MM: Right. So, if the captain notices that someone is in there, modifying that log -- MR. Uh-huh. MR. : -- at that time, is that okay? MR. QR: I'm sure that would bring, like, flag something. The captain would be, like, what's going on? : Right. Yeah. But, okay. But if you , and you were the one modifying this thing, and you are going back and basically, you know, changing this stuff, do you think that would be acceptable? Or should have she left it as it was and just left her one saying 73, I corrected it, brought it back to 72 and left the day before, the August EFTA00114459

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wonnu wre 185 9th date alone and just stuck with August 10th? MR. :_I believe so. MR. You believe she should have just stuck with August 10th? : I do my own things. Right. : It’s not my job to correct another lieutenant. MR. All right. And do you believe there would be something wrong with her doing that, though? Going back to August 9th and changing things? MR. : No. practice. NR. Okay. MR. : You know, it’s something that we have always done that, you know, from the very first time. I personally don’t like correcting other people. MR. : All right. MR. : But you mentioned it would have been that, if you piggyback off each other. MR. MR. Because it was past Yeah. Something came up. She 187 something? You don't think there’s anything wrong with it? You just wouldn’t have done it? MR. I wouldn't have done it personally. mR. a Right. MR. : But I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with what she did. MR. —. Did you want to talk about these anymore, about the lieutenant logs? MR. No. We covered it. MR. All right. Okay. MR. I don’t know if there is a certain order I’m supposed to -- WR. QM: «No, yeah, I just keep it, I kept them in order. They're all in order of the counts. Thank you for initialing and signing everything. And we had to go past that, so, this would be, thank you, sir. MR. : You're welcome. MR. : This is the last thing we have got. All right. So, we have only got two more documents or something. So, these are the, what_are these? MR. :_These are the round sheets. MR. So, is this L tier? won nu wre (Indiscernible *02:14:29). MR. Like I said, like, for instance, I go home at 10, right? She is relieving me at 10, but there is still going to be a good verbal and a clear count after I'm . : And that’s true. . : But then she would have to go -- WR. ME: She's actually starting on August_9th. WR. QM: She would have to be going back into mine in order to put the, clear the count, because she can’t put 10:30 good verbal and 10:45 clear count on her log, cause it’s after midnight. Does that make sense? So, she will go, like, things like that, you piggyback. Just like if, like, we end up, we do the two hour relief thing, you know, you got to, you piggyback, but otherwise, I don’t go back to, like, correct another person. That's me, personally. MR. But she did start on August 9th, and what you're saying is you don’t find it problematic that she did correct 188 Would that be where Epstein was housed for 8/9/2019, _in the SHU? MR. + Yes, MR. All right. And did you say you had heard that these were not conducted? WR. MM: Well, like, for instance, case in point, I don’t know who this is, but I wouldn't have, when I made rounds, unless he made rounds around this time, or prior to this time, these were never finished. MR. Okay. So, this person, if you didn’t go do the round, who, do you believe, would have gone in and actually signed off on that? WR. QM: It would be the either/or. I don't recognize -- Does that look like -- I know this is me. MR. : Okay. So, you actually did a round in there? MR. I did the rounds somewhere, no, wait a minute, is this me? WR. MMM: I thought you said did the round. EFTA00114460

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wonnu wre Wwonmnu wre 189 MR. QE: QB did make the round in SHU. I don’t know why I’m, I don’t know why my signature is on here. WR. WM: That is your signature, though? WR. WE: It looks like my MM. But I didn’t make rounds in SHU. I know that. I didn’t make the evening watch rounds. MR. MM: «Shoot. I didn’t print off the list for the lieutenants, cause there's, but that is your signature on there? MR. : That looks like my MR. : And would have you had to have gone _to the actual SHU to do that? WR. WEB: Yes, I would have had to have, and I didn’t make rounds up there that night. MR. QM: | Any idea how that would have gotten on there, if you didn’t, you weren't in there? MR. : No. No. MR. Do you know if anyone asked you after the fact to sign off on something? MR. WE: Not necessarily. No. I don't. But I 191 MR. QM: «The morning watch went, upon HE coming in, oh, you know what? I'm not, I don't remember doing it, but the only thing I could think of is when it gets picked up, but the thing is, this don’t get picked up, it don’t get sent down until morning watch. So, I don't, I don’t remember, I really don’t remember signing that. But I really don’t remember signing that, and it looks like the morning watch lieutenant didn’t sign, either. Cause then if you look at this, I wouldn’t have signed, if I saw rounds not done. Remember, I said that earlier. So does this at all look like it ‘could have been, like, cut and paste or why, why would that be modi fied? MR. : I don’t know. MR. : Do you have any reason to believe that that is not your signature? MR. WM: «I don't recall signing it, but that looks like my J. I always initial. I don’t ever fully sign. _I always do the I, as you can see, I do the § in the circle. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t recall. I don’t recall signing it, but that is won nu wre 190 know I didn’t make rounds up there, but that looks like my I. And this is the first I’m seeing this. WR. MM: Yeah. It does look exactly like what you have been doing. I didn’t even notice that before. So, this is your signature on the 8/9/2019 -- MR. + Uh-huh. MR. : == 30 minute check sheet, but you did not_visit the SHU on August 9th? WR. MM: No. I did not make rounds. My Activities Lieutenant made rounds that night. WR. GE: «Would it have anything to do with the fact that she was an Acting Activities Lieutenant? WR. QM: =I mean, no, because I don’t remember, I don’t recall signing the round sheet for that shift. WR. QM: «Cause it looks like all of, it looks like all of them are you, right? WR. ME: Well, some, one thing right here, too, it’s not signed off on here, either. MR. : So the bottom aren't signed off on. Well, who -- 192 my signature. I didn't make rounds. The onl thing I could, I could assume is maybe = asked me to sign because she made the round, but she is not an actual lieutenant. But I don't recall. WR. ME: «But would have she had, like, literally have been allowed to bring, take the -- MR. QM: No. No. That’s the thing. They can’t leave the unit until morning watch. This gets_sent down for the morning watch. MR. : All right. MR. : Like, when [J came in for Saturday morning watch -- . + Uh-huh. -- this, after midnight, between 11:30 amd 12 is the last round for the evening shift. Then this gets sent out. That’s why I'm looking at this, look, it’s on this one. It’s on this one, but where is it here? It's not here. It’s not here. So, what, was one tier, two tiers done and not the other? There’s six tiers up there. WR. QM: «And they're al] for 8/9/2019? So, we got some kind of discrepancy EFTA00114461

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wonnu wre going on with these. WR. WE: «I don’t remember signing that. MR. :_(Indiscernible *02:21:12). MR. : And you would, you would have signed it before 10 p.m.? Before you . | Before I left. . : So you don’t remember ever visiting the SHU? MR. : I might have been up in the SHU, like, to move an inmate or whatever have you, or like, to lock somebody up, but I don’t even remember if I did or not, honestly. I don't remember. MR. QM: «Do you believe that you I don’t remember signing it. Okay. WR. I do not_remember signing the round sheet mi I know J made rounds that night. WR. QM: So, what, I guess what I'm asking is, what is this? So, this one still says 8/9, but for ZB -- “. | & ny WR. WM: 0) right. So, your signature is on these, but you don’t recall Signing it, and you did not do rounds? WR. WE: «I did not make the round in 195 But that is, I can’t, that's So, if you didn’t do a round in SHU, were you off, could have you signed it? MR. MBM: What do you mean? Wait, I'm MR. QM: «So, you signed it, saying that you did a round, but you didn’t actually do a round? MR. QM: I didn’t make the rounds in And I don’t remember signing this. MR. > Okay. MR. : Could I have signed it, like, hey, you missed a signature? Possibly. But I don’t remember signing it. Cause I know I didn’t make rounds that night. WR. MM: | Right. So, your Signature is on there, saying you did a round, but you did not do rounds? SHU. won nu wre 194 . magi s 10 South. MR. : But 10 South, you got to go through the SHU to get to 10 South. MR. Yes. MR. : Who is that person? MR. : I'm not sure. I don’t know. I don’t recognize it. It could be . It looks like an §§ and something else. MR. ue & So, do you believe that in some way, then, do you believe that you did not sign the 8/9/2019 count sheet? I don’t remember signing it. Right. Right. I could have very well -- I guess what I'm asking is, Tike, do we now have to look into, oh, crap, this stuff might have been, Tike, copied and pasted and put onto something else? MR. : I don't know. Well, actually, I don’t know. I can’t answer that question. I just don't, I do not, I can tell you I do not remember signing it, but I do remember, I did not make rounds in SHU. I don't remember signing it. I don’t. ‘R.A righ. WR. QM: Huh-uh. But I didn’t, I wasn’t there. I didn’t make the round in SHU. WR. WB: why do you clearly remenber that you didn’t go in the SHU that night? I'm sorry? : Why do you remember that you 196 never went -- WR. WM: Because I was trying to hire overtime for the morning watch shift most of the night. At that point in time, with how short we were lieutenants, and how short we were staffed, an Operations Lieutenant would spend at least four hours a shift, trying to just fill the overtime. And I remember, cause I even, I think, if I recall correctly, I remember, I even mandated Noel to work in SHU that night, for the overnight. WR. WR: So you think you spent most of the time in the office, trying to -- WR. QM: Yes. I was doing the roster, trying to fill the roster when said, hey, I got it, MM. 1°11 take Epstein upstairs, the night before. MR. a. Do you think anyone could have filled your signature in? EFTA00114462

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wonnu wre 197 MR. QM: Unless, unless they traced it. MR. MM: «But that does appear to be your signature? MR. : It's my I, but it doesn’t look the same on all of them, like, this one, it looks a little different than here. WR. QM: But, for, 1 guess, the next person to come in and sign would have been this individual. MR. : That's MR. : MR. : Yeah. MR. : So, do you have any reason to believe that | would have signed for you? MR. - No. MR. : If she noticed that this block was_empty? MR. : No. No. MR. : So you don’t believe HE would have done that? WR. MM: No. I don’t believe HE vould have done that at all. MR. ME: So you do believe that 199 MR. QM: «So, because this has such a high level focus now -- MR. Uh-huh. MR. : -- this is something that is actually, unfortunately, brand-new to us -- ; , a : == we're going to have to somehow resolve that. MR. > Uh-huh. MR. : Do you have any, any kind of explanation to how that could have happened then? You didn’t do rounds in SHU. You never even went in the SHU, and you could only sign this document from within the SHU. MR. Uh-huh. MR. : And this is the documents that were obtained. MR. WEB: No, this could get signed in the lieutenant’s office, after it’s collected. MR. QM: A01 right, so this could have been collected -- MR. MB: Every night, this gets, the six round sheets gets sent down to the lieutenant's office. MR. BE: So, do you think -- won nu wre 198 this is your signature? MR. : I believe it’s my signature, but I just don’t remember signing that. I don't. MR. QJ: «And you don’t remember even going to the SHU. MR. : I didn’t make rounds that evening, no. WR. MR: And you don’t remember actualy even ee into the SHU that -- Not that I recall. No. : So that’s (Indiscernible *02:25: 05) like how could have your signature got on there? WR. MB: You would have to, you would have to, you would have to review the cameras, but I don’t recall signing this paper. And I know I didn’t make rounds, because even when I went in with you guys in the FBI and the AUSA, she even told me — name before I even said it. I said, my Activities Lieutenant made rounds that night in SHU, and she said, that's Acting Lieutenant, Ms. | said, you are, I said, correct. I still recall, I recall that interview. 200 MR. QM: | That might have been when I signed it, but this would have, I wasn’t here on morning watch. MR. — What about on August 10th, when you did come back from the hospital? You came back, right, on August 10th? MR. : Yeah. I was here the whole day. I didn't go home. I don’t remember exactly, but I know it was, like, around 4:00 ish, 5:00 ish, when I got home, when I left. MR. : So, I mean, it doesn’t look like, these things Took like they were , you know? Uh-huh. After Noel -- That might have very well been what ha} ened. MR. a. That you signed it the next day? WR. MMMM: I might have signed it when it was sitting on the lieutenant’s office pile. MR. a. All right. Can you give me the 4 p.m. count again, now that you're saying that it’s sparking my memory that people are saying that other documents weren't signed, EFTA00114463

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wonnu wre 201 as they should have been, the 4 p.m. count? Were there places that you, as the Ops Lieutenant, you were supposed to sign that you didn’t here? MR. WM: «This was, this should be signed off by the day watch Operations Lieutenant. WR. WM: So that's day watch? That wouldn’t have been you? WR. MM: Yeah. Yeah. Cause here I am, I signed that one, right there. WR. QM: So, you said this one on page, the third page should have been that oe that one? It could have been I -- Count time, 4 p.m. -- BBB or myself. But then you say you started at 2? WR. QR: Yeah. could have been me. MR. : And you did the count? MR. : It could have been J, either/or. ‘. a: No, I'm saying, it Who did the count? MR. RM: © Anything else on here that —— to have signatures by you guys? MR. aa: Yeah. I don’t know who, I don’t know who signed that one right there. MR. — That's — saying that she signed -- MR. : No, that's from, it’s from WR. M- 0h, cause she was stil] in attorney conference for the 4 p.m. MR. : Yeah. This is, I don’t know whose signature that is. MR. : But that’s not yours? MR. :_ That's not mine. MR. : So, at 4 p.m., the attorney conference approved by, you can't actually even make that out. wR. MM: I can’t. that is. MR. QM: «If that’s supposed to be the Operations Lieutenant, this is not you, by looking at this daily roster, can you deduce who it could have been? ? It’s not , because -- It's going to be IM or vk. I don't know who wos wre . ™ took the count. MR. : Okay. And you didn’t participate in the 4 p.m.? MR. :_No. MR. : Did you participate in the count_that day? WR. MM: I'm not sure. remember. I don’t remember. WR. QM: But so at 4 p.m., you were from 2 to 10. [IM was only until 2. And this is the 4, so shouldn’t you have signed that? WR. QM: =I could, I could have been the one that should have signed it, cause I signed this one right here. I signed that, I know I signed that out count. MR. — So what is this one that doesn't have a signature? What is that for? WR. BBM: This one right here? That's the total out count and there was one cadre from 11 South out. WR. MM: Okay. So that one doesn't have a signature, but the fourth page does and that’s your signature, you said? WR. MB: «That's me. = one of the two. x. a: =. is gone at 2? MR. : Oh, no, no, cause he’s gone But that’s You see, I I don't 204 You can have 4 p.m., if at 2. Both of them were gone at 2. not me. That’s definitely not me. do thel the circle everywhere. MR. : So, is the one that would have provided this to somebody to sign? WR. MB: Yeah. She would have given the out count to the Operations Lieutenant. MR. : All right. So we have to who signed this? MR. : Yeah. Cause I don’t know who that is. I don’t know whose signature that is. WR. QM: «And none of these people on here that are working that day look like anybody that that could, that would have the authority to do that? WR. MM: No. There are only two people, these are the only was the captain, the lieutenants, and QJ, and myself are the only people. I mean -- ask EFTA00114464

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wonnu wre 205 WR. SR: «It's not HJ. It’s not you. MR. An acting, an acting lieutenant could sign, if they're in that capacity, but she was still attorney conference when this was done. MR. All right. MR. : So, I don’t know whose signature that is. And then this -- :_And that's mine. MR. : And that one is yours, so for the official out count. Is this weird to you at all, this, the fact that somebody else's Signature is on that? MR. Yeah. I don’t know who the fuck, cause I know I didn’t sign it. And I know, this was probably just a slip of the, I forgot to sign it, the other one. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : Because I signed everything else. WR. QM: So the one, so one is that you were supposed to have signed was signed by someone else, and another one looks 207 you forgot to sign. On the fifth page, fourth page, you did sign. Seventh page, shows the official count from ff. That is not your signature. All right. And then the last one is you as well. MR. :_I signed. Uh-huh. MR. Which is the official out count from the hospital. So, the attorney conference room, you got to figure out whose Signature that is. And no one would have been authorized, as you know -- MR. : A lieutenant is supposed to sign the out count. MR. But it could have been a lieutenant? But there are, as far as you know, there is no other lieutenants that were actually even in the building at that time? MR. Unless this was done before, an out count has to be in 45 minutes prior to the count. So that means it would have had to be done no later than 3:15. Unless that was done before went home, I don’t know. MR. : But it doesn’t even look like it would be a . MR. It doesn't. won nu wre 206 like you forgot. . -, forgot. . : So, it would have been WR. : No. was the one that was in MB. This is the I, coming from ii out count. MR. QM: «So who would have provided this to you, to sign it? MR. ; MR. : All right. So, would have given that to you to sign? MR. a MR. : But in this case, it sounds like she didn’t? WR. QM: No. I don’t know. I don’t remember if she didn’t. give it to me right off the bat, or if I just forgot to sign it. It could be, I forgot to sign it. . : Okay. . : But I don’t know who that is on that other one. I don’t even, it looks like, it just looks like a squiggly line. MR. a. So, on the 4 p.m. count, after the E-1, so there's, on the third page, 8 20 MR. : PEBBNP ooh, that could be ? MR. : I don’t know, it just, it looks like a squiggly line. But that's definitely not my signature. You have been watching me sign papers all this interview. I do the i circle -- MR. : Yeah, no, I know it's not yours. That's what I'm just trying to figure out who itis. MR. : Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. MR. No, there's no question. It’s not yours. Do you remember that day, though, you're positive you came in at 2? MR. I don’t even know why it Says non-custody here. NR. A Somebody indicated that someone manipulated that, and that it shouldn't say non-custody. MR. : I was custody at the time. MR. : So, somebody, somebody has told us, doesn’t make any sense that there’s an NC there. Do you agree with that? MR. QM: I agree 100% there. It would have said, it would have said nothing. EFTA00114465

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wonnu wre 209 It would have said nothing, because custody don't have that, NC stands for non-custody on the roster. WR. QM: The fact that this was printed out on June 2, 2021, would that auto -- WR. WM: That's because I was a counselor already. MR. a. -- would that populate to non-custody automatically? MR. : Yes. Because I'm non- custody now. MR. > Okay. MR. : I'ma counselor. MR. : So, when we printed out, that date, these things would be automatically generated with your name, NC. MR. a: Yes. MR. : So would that be why then (Indiscernible *02:33:27). MR. QM: That's probably why. I didn’t see that this was printed this year. WR. QM: Okay. Al] right. So, it would be printed, based upon what you are at the time, but you were custody at the time? MR. : Iwas a lieutenant at the 211 just saying that, so, in his first suicide attempt, correct, do you remember who his cellmate was at the time? MR. WRB: He was that cop guy. I forgot his name. Tartaglione. Tartaglione. T-A-f-T-A-f-L-1-0-N-E. Yeah. So, there's an email dated August 7, 2019, to all the lieutenants, Saying that Tartaglione was going to be in attorney conference on Friday, August 2, 2009. Now, (Indiscernible *02:35:03) Epstein was in there at the same time. Do you know if they would have had any interaction in there? Together? WR. HE: No. rooms. WR. QM: So they would not have gone together? WR. ME: Unless, like, when they were going in, or coming out. WR. = Okay. MR. : If they were coming in or They were in separate won nu wre 210 Yeah. WR. BM: A11 right. So, okay. So we can’t put any real credence to NCs when we see the, based upon the print (Indiscernible *02:33:48). WR. WH: No, after, like, I became a counselor, February 2020. . : Okay. . : So I have only been non- custody since then. WR. GR: | A01 right. time. And then this one was just an email, saying that I was, this is just confirming that, it’s just an email that you sent to someone a MR. : . MR. : , just saying that you were Activities, and had to go to the hospital to make sure staff weren’t bothered by media, while his body was there. “Today, I am . | ag watch. MR. : Day watch Ops. Okay. That was just in case you had any kind of need for recollection that you actually worked those days. Here you go. So, here is something, 212 out at the same time, but otherwise, they're in two separate rooms. WR. QE: So they're not even seeing each other or interacting? WR. QM: No. They will be in, and as a matter of fact, they're SHU inmates, so the SHU inmates, the SHU cell, the SHU cells, the attorney conference cells for the SHU inmates are the same as the SHU cells. They’re locked in with their attorney. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, they couldn't even, like, come out and pass each other. WR. WM: Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? . : Sure. . : Did you have any involvement with that initial July 23, 2019? No. Have you heard any rumors about Tartaglione attempting to harm Epstein? MR. : No. I heard that he was helping him. He is the one that notified the staff that_he needed help. WR. GR: Okay. EFTA00114466

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wonnu wre . fm”: what I heard. MR. : So, you didn't hear anytning about him trying to harm Epstein? On the street. And what -- People talking shit. Do you think -- And I’m not even talking about Bureau staff. I’m talking about, you know how much shit, pardon my language -- : Yeah. -- I know we're on camera -- Yeah, yeah. -- on tape here, do you know how much trash I got from people that have known me my whole life, and I tell them Straight out, I can’t answer your questions. I'm not going to answer your questions. NR. + Right. MR. : Don't talk stupid trash to me. I was, like, don’t, don’t even go there. MR. TO Do you think there's any validity to any kind of a claim, saying that Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein? WR. WE: 1 don’t know. I’m not in 215 space, so there should be an initiative to have adequate bed assignments available in the Special Housing Unit.” So, were people that were attempting to harm themselves previously not being referred to suicide watch, are you No. As a matter of fact, if I, I, at one point in time, if I felt like a new intake, if I was, let’s say, Operations Lieutenant on an off-shift, and we didn’t have Psychology here, if I felt they were a threat to themselves, I would put them on watch, and then all I would have to do is notify Psychology. MR. : Okay. MR. : Like, I would wake up the on-duty psychologist at home and say, hey, doc, I'm putting inmate on observation. MR. : All right. So, the only change here was that the captain wanted to be notified? . | - I believe so. : All right. And he wasn't notified prior to that time, is that what he’s saying? won nu wre the cell with them. WR. GM: Okay. But from any information that you have received, do you have any reason to believe? MR. QB: No. I know, from what I know of Tartaglione, he’s trying to beat his case. He's trying to fight his case. So I don’t think he would want to add any undue thing to his case. WR. ME: Okay. Okay, so I’m just going to, so this was after the fact, on Friday, August 16, 2019, the captain, J = ns, sent a message to a number of people, it looks like all the lieutenants, to include yourself. It just says, “Lieutenants, there has been a significant change concerning the placement of inmates on suicide watch at MCC. Starting 8/16/19, when an inmate expresses intentions to physically harm themself or behavior warrants placement on watch, please make sure the captain is notified immediately by phone. If inmate companions are needed to sit on the inmate, the overall approving authority is the warden. Inmates will no longer be able to remain on SHU bed eR. a: be. 7 1 os Okay. As long as we notified rca . a: Sure. So, people were, it’s ne a change in practice. It’s a change in agg to the captain? Yes. Okay. A lot of those things change like _— e socks. aol Yeah. If you don’t mind, just anitial and date these daily assignments, then Sure. For the 9th and 10th. I tov we tee been keeping you awhile. Just want to finish up these questions. (Indiscernible *02:38:42). So what is your understanding of what happened to Epstein on August 9th and 10th, 2019? MR. QM: «My understanding is that he committed suicide. That he hung up. 216 He wasn’t, he didn’t have to EFTA00114467

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wonnu wre 217 WR. QM: Is that, you understand of how he died was from suicide and hanging? MR. That's what I understand. Yes. MR. QM: Okay. Do you have any information with regard to any suspicious activity that occurred on August 9th or 10th, 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in his cell? . :_No. . .. I'm just going to go over just some broad, general issues and just ask you if you have any information on it. So, we just talked about his first suicide attempt on July 23, 2019. Are you aware if Epstein was placed on suicide watch after that? MR. QM: I’m not sure. I’m not 100% sure. I think he was placed on observation after that_incident. Okay. : If I'm not mistaken. MR. : And is observation, suicide watch, are they basically the same thing, just a matter of, if you give your clothes or not? 219 MR. MM: Yes. That's where I fed him. MR. _ Okay. MR. : Cause lieutenants have to feed the inmates. MR. Oh, so that notation of feeding on this was actually not regarding the MR. QM: «It was probably, it might have, it may have been in the SHU, if he was a lieutenant hold at the time. But when he was on observation, I have fed him down there. WR. MM: Okay. So you had interaction with him when he was actually on -- MR. Yeah, basically just, as far as opening the slot, handing him his food trays, collecting his trash, locking the slot, you okay? You okay? Okay. And, can I talk to the Psychology Department? Go get the psyche. That’s it. MR. QE: «Anything that he said to you that was cause for concern? MR. :_No. MR. No? Anything more than can you get me this or get me that? won nu wre MR. QR: It’s a matter of the clothing. Observation, they were allowed to have their regular attire on, with an inmate companion. Suicide watch, they were in the smock and had the, like, the sleeping bag, the suicide sleeping bag. MR. — And that is outside of the SHU, correct? : That is outside of the SHU. What floor is that? MR. : In the event, in the event that suicide watch on second floor was overbooked, overfilled, we would do suicide watch in SHU, but it would be a staff member watching. MR. Okay. And is it your understanding, though, that Epstein was removed from the SHU and placed on either suicide watch or psychological observation after the initial incident on July 23rd? MR. I've seen him down on suicide watch and observation on the second floor. MR. QM: So, you actually did see him there? . | That was it. MR. : Okay. Do you believe that Epstein was prematurely removed from psychological observation or suicide watch? MR. No. I mean, the Ph.D. psychologist felt that it was appropriate. They’re the doctors. MR. Have you heard any rumors about anyone else having any say in him being removed? MR. :_ No. MR. Have you heard any rumor about the judge calling the warden and asking him to have him removed so he could continue with his attorney visits? I have never heard the WR. QM: «No? By anyone, streets or inside or otherwise? MR. : No. MR. Okay. We already talked about Reyes being removed. Although you received that email the day before, that wasn’t something that you reviewed, so you didn’t know that Reyes was actually being removed from the EFTA00114468

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wonnu wre institution or transferred, correct? WR. MM: No. No. Yes. Yes. Correct. MR. : And no one told you? No. Aside from that email? Aside from the email. . Okay. And that, again, is that, oh, you already answered it. Do you know anything about other falsified counts being conducted in the MCC prior to August 10, . : No. MR. | Do you believe that counts were being conducted in the MCC, prior to August 9th and 10th, 2019? MR. | would hope so. MR. : Anything about the SHU, though, I mean, if they’re sleeping in the SHU, we have heard rumors that maybe in the SHU, they were sleeping a lot. Had you heard anything about that, them sleeping during their shifts in_the SHU? MR. : What, the staff? MR. : Yeah. 223 MR. QM: «How, I mean, I spent time in the Marine Corps and I remember going 36, 40 hours on three hours of sleep and that was rough at 18, 19 years old. MR. = Right. MR. : You know? Doing 16 hours, it’s not human. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : Qur bodies are not made for that. WR. MM: Okay. So, being that they were exhausted and people were sleeping during their shifts, especially with the focusing in on the SHU. Do you believe that it’s likely that counts weren’t being conducted prior to August 9, 2019? . I hope to God not. . : Okay. : I really do. I can’t confi rn nor deny it. I just hope to God not. MR. a. What about rounds? Do you know if they were being conducted in the SHU prior to that? MR. QM: © I would hope, once again, I would hope so. 222 MR. QM: Well, all I could say is this. The staff were walking around like zombies. . : Right. . : These guys and girls were getting stuck four days a week, sometimes five days a week, doing 16 hour shifts. I have never in my career have seen so many write-ups for officers refusing mandates. I have had to write-up countless officers because they refused a mandate, when I told them they had to stay. And then, but at the same time, I didn’ ts I felt bad for them. Uh-huh. 1 really did. were water T was a zombie. gett hit, like, twice a week, Okay. and I was a zombie. I'm also i 47 now. I'm not a young kid anymore, and some of these kids, 20 something years old, they would literally, they would be standing up and exhausted. MR. —, So people are just too exhausted to do their job, is it? Because they And I was only 224 But you're unaware for I'm unaware. Okay. I can’t confirm. : All right. What do you know about the MCC, and particularly the SHU cameras not working on August 9th and 10th, 2019? WR. QM: 1 found that out when everybody else did. I honestly didn’t know they weren't working. WR. QM: §So, during your, especially on August 9th, when you were working, did anyone ever notify you that the cameras were not recording? MR. : No. MR. : Is there any way for you to have known? WR. QM: No. I don’t know. The only thing, like in the lieutenant’s office and in control, we can see the cameras, but we don’t know if they're actually recording or not. MR. a. So, there's nothing to indicate if they're recording? MR. : Like, that's kept somewhere EFTA00114469

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wonnu wre 225 else, like in the Computer Services people. MR. BM: Do you know at the time where that was kept? WR. QM: 1 think, if I’m not mistaken, there’s one on 3, by the com room, and I'm not sure if there is one down here on 1. MR. QM: «Do you know if, at the time, do you know if the cameras where the recording would have been kept in the SIS office? MR. WM: Well, there's, where the cameras, like, the hard drives are in the back of where the com room is. MR. : Okay. MR. : Which is part of the whole SIS shop back there. WR. ME: «So, if someone wanted to knock the cameras offline and intentionally stop them from recording, like, where could have they done that from? WR. MM: «I'm not 100% certain. I don't know if it could be done from back there or not. I just know that that’s where the room is. 227 MR. QM: I've been here, listen, I’ve been here 20 out of my 21 years on the job. I'm rounding it off. I mean, I don’t have exactly 21 years. I’ve seen this place on a steady decline. MR. GM: «1 know. What about the cameras? Weren't they all fixed? MR. MB: | They were just recently fixed. Now, the cameras are phenomenal. MR. : Okay. MR. : Like, when I was a lieutenant, I wished the cameras were as good as they are now. You could actually see faces of inmates fighting. MR. > Uh-huh. MR. : And identify them. But before that, you couldn't. MR. a. Who is responsible for the cameras? MR. QM: The com room. I’m sorry. Not the com room. The com shop, the com techs. WR. QE: «And do you know who that would have been at the time? MR. QM: who was here? I think HE. think BB. I'm not sure of who 226 MR. QR: «And do you know anything about anyone knocking the cameras offline? MR. :_No. I do not. MR. : Have you heard any rumors about that? No. Do you have any kind of, even theory or explanation of why the cameras were not recording specifically in the SHU? MR. :_ No. MR. : No? And you hadn't heard anything about that? WR. QM: Not until I heard it from, you know, what everybody else going on around, like, yo, the cameras didn't work. The cameras didn’t pick anything up. And the newspapers. MR. a. Is that surprising to you, for you to hear? MR. : No. Cause everything here is gone. This building is decrepit. Okay. : I'm sorry. I can't put it | MB. 0h, 0. That's why we're here, is to figure out -- WR. : Do you know if [J would have been here at the time? WR. MM: «1 don’t remember. remember when he started. : Okay. : He's the head of Facilities, I don't And who is, what's his iho is i a Right now, he is the lock the lock shop. Lock and Security -- WR. WM: «Do you know where he would have been at the time? WR. QM: =I don’t remember. I think he was, was he plumbing at the time or was he in the lock shop? I’m not sure. MR. a. Do you know if he had anything to do with cameras? WR. BM: «I'm not, I'm not 100% EFTA00114470

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wonnu wre 229 certain. "wR. MN: So, MB is in charge of the cameras. Who would have he reported to, do you know? veh a a. Well, I think, I guess his and the assistant. The assistant, who? Facilities Manager. All right. So, there's a Facilities Manager and an Assistant Facilities Manager? MR. :_ They are, and they're not. MR. : Okay. MR. : When we're fully staffed, there is usually a boss and an assistant. MR. — Okay. MR. : I don’t recall who it was at the time. MR. QM: Do you know if Epstein was in his assigned cell on August 10, 2019, when he was found? vk. J: he was in that corner cell, I'm not 100% sure. I know that’s all I know. 231 MR. QM: §Do you have, do you know if Epstein was always in that cell that you described? MR. WM: No. Like I said, at one point in time, I think he was down on H tier. I do know -- WR. MM: Let's say, after he returned from suicide watch or psychological observation, do you know if he was always -- MR. :_ I don’t remember. MR. : You don’t remember? MR. :_ I don’t remember. MR. : Do you know if, at least for the days leading up to August 9th, was he in that same_cell? MR. QM: I mean, at least a couple of days, I believe, yes. I’m not 100% certain, though. WR. QM: Okay. And you mentioned, this will be the last of the big topics, you mentioned that you knew that was allowing Epstein to place a telephone call on August 9, 2019? MR. QM: Yeah. when I came around to escort him, he said, I got it. I’m going to 230 Who would be responsible, if he, in the BOP database, the system, he is assigned to a different cell than he is actually physically located? Who would be responsible for making that change within the : :_Oh, within Sentry? . : Yeah. . : As soon as the, basically, the SHU Lieutenant would have to stay up on top of that. WR. QM: So, it’s the SHU Lieutenant's responsibility for that? WR. WE: «To make sure that everything is where it’s supposed to be in his unit. MR. a. Does Ops or lieutenants or anybody that visits the SHU and do rounds, are they responsible at all for -- MR. : No. You're not going to pick up a PP30 -- MR. : Sure. MR. : == when you're making rounds. Like I said, your predominant, the predominant function of doing the rounds is to make sure the officers are doing their job. 232 bring him up to SHU, and I’m going to give him a legal call. I said, okay. WR. QM: «And do you know why he was being afforded a legal call? MR. : No, I do not. MR. : Especially the fact that he is already in with his attorneys? MR. : And his attorney had left already. I do not know. WR. I: Do you know if it was actually a legal call that he placed? MR. : I don’t know. I don’t know. MR. : Do you know anything about it at all? WR. QM: Other than he brought him on the elevator and that was the last I saw of Epstein. WR. MM: «And did you talk to WB about that at all after the fact? MR. : No. No. MR. : Did you see J after he returned him? WR. QM: No. I think he went home. I think he left the buildin a: EFTA00114471

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wonnu wre i SCwoeoytnu wre as wr ee es on Dw Se Mmmm mee Wr rt Ow 233 . | MR. : All right. Did you find it unusual that he was being allowed to place a MR. QM: No. I mean, we have done it for other inmates before, too. Like, if, let’s say, you know, oh, I forgot to ask my lawyer, it’s all about, what’s the word I’m looking for? Convenience. If it’s not inconveniencing the person or the time, or if it's going to be an issue or a security issue, or something like that, and you feel like doing it, you can do it. There's nothing to say -- MR. What if Epstein told them that he is actually not calling his lawyer, but he’s calling his -- MR. Mother. MR. -- mother? MR. I don’t know. MR. Is that at all, do you believe that to be an acceptable practice, to - WR. WM: I wouldn't, I wouldn’t do it. If you’re telling me you need a legal call, you're going to call your attorney. 235 about someone else taking Epstein’s life? MR. Nothing. Except for the, pardon my language, the BS rumors that you hear out in the media, on social media, and in the public. MR. BM: Okay. What do you know about others assisting with taking Epstein’s life? MR. | don’t believe that. MR. : What do you, when you say you don't believe it, do you know of any rumors or -- MR. QR: No, I don’t know of anything, and I don’t believe it. I don’t, there is nothing I know about it. And I have seen, not just at MCC New York, you hear about it throughout the Bureau. Somebody could hang themselves, just leaning forward on a bed. And it only takes a couple of minutes. So, did Epstein take his . | believe so, yes. MR. : Did Epstein act alone in taking his own life? MR. I believe so. won nu wre 234 . i Right. MR. : I'm not going to put you on with the attorney and then sit there and hear you say, oh, hi, Mom. No. Cause if you tell me a legal call, I’m giving you a legal call. MR. Do you know, would have HEM needed approval to allow him to place a call like that? MR. MB: Well, you, MBB is a unit team member, and unit team would normally do the legal_calls for the inmates. MR. Okay. So, would have, if it was a legal call they provided him, but not to his legal team, to his mother, would have he needed to obtain approval for that? MR. I don’t know. I’m assuming yes. I don’t know. I never heard of any, I never heard that it was to his mom. I always, he told me, I’m giving him a call. MR. ae. Okay. So that’s all you know about it? MR. That’s all I know about it, and he got on the elevator and brought him up to SHU. WR. I: Okay. What do you know WR. I: «Did you have any involvement with Epstein -- MR. : Absolutely not. MR. : What would have prevented Epstein’s death, in (Indiscernible *02:52:11)? MR. In all actuality, if he really wanted to commit suicide, nothing would have prevented it, because anybody that really wants to kill themselves can kill themselves. Epstein’s cell overlooked the OIC’s desk. He was watching the staff. He knew when he could and when he couldn’t. MR. Okay. So do you think that if they were actually conducting their counts and rounds as they should have, would have that_helped in preventing the death? MR. It could have helped, but it wouldn't have totally prevented it, because it just takes minutes to kill yourself. If I wanted to do it, I would wait for you to make your round. I now know, I have 30 minutes to kill myself. It only takes two or three. MR. : What about the fact that he was mandated to have a cellmate, and the cellmate was removed and no one backfilled it? EFTA00114472

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wonnu wre i SCwoeoytnu wre Re eee we whe ——as onan Mmmm rm Oe ee nm w 237 Do you think that would have helped? MR. Yes or no. Remember what I told you, in 2003. That dude committed suicide and he had a bunkie. MR. And then in the same token, though, you said Tartaglione was the one that notified them when he attempted the first time. MR. MBM: Yeah. So, like, yes and no. That's why I said yes and no. Like, if that inmate is asleep, and let’s say that inmate is a heavy sleeper, Epstein could have strung up while he was asleep. MR. — Okay. And then this is just the last overall question that I have and then I'll turn it over. What are some of the systematic problems inside the MCC, and specifically, the SHU that allowed for Epstein to die? MR. QM: I'msorry. Can you just restate the question? MR. —. So, what are some of the problems in the SHU? We just talked about, obviously, if they didn’t conduct their rounds and the counts as they should have, the SHU MR. : The SHU was? MR. : SHU. Yeah. I mean, even until this whole thing happened. MR. : Why? MR. : We had, we had £1 Chapo for two years. . : Right. . : Without a hitch. . But he was also not in He was in 10 South. MR. : He was in 10 South. MR. Do you believe that Epstein should have been in 10 South or tier? MR. I mean, my personal opinion really doesn’t matter with the grand scope of things. I'm not a decision maker. MR. Well, just with 20 years at MCC, do you believe he should have -- MR. I feel he should have been on 10 South. MR. a: Okay. And why? MR. : Because that is the Super Max Unit. That’s even more higher security than SHU. And it’s also a lot, it’s easier, With won nu wre -- and people didn’t act in order to get him a new cellmate, what are some of the other problems, systematic problems? It sounded like you may have mentioned that people were too tired to work (Indiscernible *02:54:04). WR. MB: Well, that’s the only thing I got. Especially at that time. Right now, staffing got a little better. It got a lot better, and staff got put on 12 hour shifts. So, this way, they have more time off. And they can’t get stuck for 16s every day. Right? That’s now. Then, they were tired. They were tired. And you also didn’t, you never had a regular crew. What I mean by a regular crew, you never, you didn’t always have the consistent staff in there. And you had staff that were exhausted, on top of exhaustion. And the SHU unit, in my opinion, always has, when I was even, when I was a SHU officer back in the early 2000s, that was the post. That was one of the most high-profile posts in this building. 240 let's say, for instance, on a staff member that’s totally exhausted. There's only six cells up there. And you don’t have to craw] up and down stairs. You walk from the first cell, it’s like aU, almost. MR. Is it also true that every cell has their own individual camera? . :_ Yes. : And who monitors those WR. MB: «The officer that is working the unit has the screens up and, right in front of his or her station and the same cameras can be seen in the com room. MR. Okay. So, is anybody actually monitoring in the com room? MR. Not on the off-shifts. : Okay. What shifts? Day shift. Just day shift? There used to be, when the e, the night shift. But for the most part, it was the day shift. MR. _— Okay. So, but the person that’s actually assigned to 10 South, and is EFTA00114473

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wonnu wre i SCwoeoytnu wre Re eee we whe ——as onan Mmmm rm Oe ee nm w 241 this the same for, does the 10 South guy also review J South? The f tier cameras, as well? MR. I believe the cameras are in there, too. You can see them on that screen, yes. WR. WE: So, 10 South would watch both -- . : Yeah. Uh-huh. . : == 10 South, as well as fj . : I believe so. . : And all of them have cameras? WR. ME: «1 could be wrong, but I believe so. MR. Okay. But you believe that by placing him on 10 South, he would have had more visibility? MR. Yes. opinion. WR. QM: Okay. Is there anything else that you want to add that we haven't addressed? That's my personal No. 243 then when you meet back up at the front, I got 15, 15, okay. Then they go to the next tier. Cause I might have 15 and you might have counted 14. We got to redo that count. And then until we both jive, and then go to the next tier, same thing, another tier, another tier, whatever, how many tiers there are in the unit, then we come up with our total number, and that’s what we call into Control. Say, hey, ZA, MMMM and Smith, I got 55. Fifty- five is a good verbal. All right. Thank you. Sign the count slip. You sign, I give it to you, you sign the count slip. Send it down to internal to control. MR. : Nothing from me. MR. Nothing? All right. Nothing else? MR. :_No. MR. MR. Nope. MR. All right. It is currently 12:22 p.m. on Wednesday, August 4, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent , and I am turning off the recorder. Any questions for us? MR. BM: You have about covered everything. Just a last question. Are COs allowed to conduct rounds, counts by themselves? WR. QM: If there's less than five inmates. MR. If, let's say in the SHU. Are they allowed to do counts by themselves? MR. QM: No. There's more than five inmates. Ten South, if there’s four inmates on 10 South, the officer doesn’t need another officer to count. MR. QR: If they did the count by themselves, is that an actual count? Is it considered as a count? MR. QM: It’s not a proper count. It’s not a proper count. I mean, I could count, easily count 96 inmates, 100 inmates, 20 inmates, whatever it is, by myself. It’s not going to be an official count unless you have a back-up person. You have, the way the policy works is one officer is supposed to stay at the end of the range, one officer goes downrange, counts the inmates, come back and that other officer goes down and counts the range. And 244 won nu wre CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of HE | Transcriber EFTA00114474