10 11 12 13 18 19 20 21 22 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 ra Hills, CA 91301 e: (818) 431-5800 yD EFTA00113967

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 APPEARANC ioe) io ioe) oO oo USE OFFICE OF WITN THE INSPECTOR GENERAL EFTA00113968

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co 20 No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 3 ee : The recorder is on and it’s currently June 14, 2021 at approximately 9:37 a.m York Field Office. And these are my credentials. I’1l1 show it to you again. Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer that right? as part of an official U.S. Department of stice Office of the Inspector General investigation. Today is June 14th and the time is approximately a.m. The interview is being conducted on the third-floor telephone And EFTA00113969

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LIMITED This int ew will be Oo Oo surrounds to voluntarily 19 tions. Will 2 interview with the DOJ 23 a : I’m going to pro Form 3-226-2. The title of the to Employ EFTA00113970

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. I’m going to read it out to you first. And then I’1l1 let you review it also. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, and/or both. Now this is the waiver part. This is for you. I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. Do you understand? ME: ecerstand. EFTA00113971

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO fos) ioe) oO oo its) nN ion) wi OFFICIAL USE 6 a : Do you want to move forward with the interview? ee : Please sign your name and print your name. for signing and (Indiscernible *00:03:37). signing the form. I elf am signing the form. I’m going i oO ey] to print my name on it. And also going to do it. g 4/2021 at 9:38 a.m. his am now signing as the D Mame aS a witness. Before starting the interview, I would like to right hand? Do you swear Li i) to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? owledge and belief. know if you do not understand EFTA00113972

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LIMITED 13 15 Lod 12 OFFICIAL will repeat it or you. So we’ll go your backgr current home date your current cell 1s your D 7 g D Q O EFTA00113973

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 military. 8 2 10 a : Do you remember when you 11 13 17 year after I started. the it was in 1995. 24 When and where 25 was with the BOP? EFTA00113974

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 ee : FCI Terminal Island. hat, how long were g Oo 9 The way that 1 and then th do it. Oo EFTA00113975

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LIMITED Oo) Oo OFFICIAL U How long were you held with the Correctional s a lieutenant. promoted as December 2010 that I EFTA00113976

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 11 you transfer? 8 f J t at bh be t =} i O KR 0) as a lieutenant? EFTA00113977

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LIMITED ies) w oO co i=) ioe) OFFICIAL USE 12 when I was at Jessup. I went there as a 9. I got my 11 and I just lateraled over here as an depends on what 2=n working in ition? a : Okay. And - bear with me. what was your ay. And what shift did you 9th and 10th? watch shift : | chat time, we were coming in I believe it was from 10:00 to 6:00. I think that’s it. We would and then we got off - we got EFTA00113978

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co io ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE 13 a : So you would come in at 10:00 wu 3 wu s o | wu 3 what time our relief came. But those ) it hours that we we working around. time. schedule were midnight tc But we would come in and relie around, you know, between the of 10:00 and 6:00. I’11 put it like that. a : Understood. Okay. And who when you worked at the MCC n Sup 9th and 10th? Who did I think it was Captain ptains in and out it’s hard to keep track n EFTA00113979

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) co 23 OFFICIAL USE 14 you assigned during August 9th and 10th where un were you assigned? lieutenant. a : Okay. And as an operations .Q lieutenant, what are your daily duti and of course the inmate population. We and the institution. We do - we hire overtime. We make runs throughout the institution. And do various other duties. We have checks and balances that we have to do throughout the night. a supervisor, who worked for me during that shift. HS: os you remember who you r taff was during that shift? n No. No I do not. communicated with? EFTA00113980

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ee : I mean I communicate with all my staff. ee : There is not one person during the course of a shift that I don't communicate with. Especially when I’m making rounds. And especially during that time, I communicated with them even more because we were below the bottom of the barrel then when it came to staffing. So we really didn’t have a lot of -. We didn’t have anybody back then. We didn’t even have enough staff at that time to even respond to body alarms. Or to do uses or forces. You know. Especially on morning watch. It’s already tight. But we was even tighter. So that was one of those nights when as much as -. Well that night as like every other night. As much as possible I tried to talk to staff because staff were doing back- to-back mandations then. And you had staff that were being mandated every day of the week Monday through Sunday. Or Sunday through Saturday as we say in Bureau. Because that’s when our week officially starts - Sunday. ee : When you say mandated what do EFTA00113981

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 N uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 you mean by that? ee : Mandations are mandatory overtime. That’s when you’ve exhausted your overtime roster. That’s the people that sign up for overtime. You’ve gone through that. There’s no one available. Or you get everybody from that list that wants to do overtime or that’s available. Then you announce it over the intercom system. That’s voluntary. Whoever wants overtime outside of that, you can assign them overtime from there. And then we go to mandatory overtime. That’s when we have nothing else left. And we have to utilize the staff that we have currently on duty that’s not officially on a double-shift. That’s not officially on 16 hours. ee: So I’m going to ask a couple more questions. How many hours where COs working during that time period? ON average? Because there were days when staff would be late. There were days when there wasn’t EFTA00113982

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 anybody even after we mandated everybody on the 2 shift. We didn’t have anybody to fill a bunch 3 of posts. We had vacated posts. We had a lot 4 of stuff. It was grueling during that time. 5 And I think we had been doing that for at least oO fu a year if not more than a year. wo Did you previously meet with i=) agents regarding the Epstein investigation? 2 a : Do you recall meeting with 3 them on August 14, 2019 in regard to the 4 matter? 16 day it was But s, I recall meeting with 7 them 8 a : I have a summary of the 9 report. What I’m going to do is I’m going to 20 read it out to you. And once I read it out to 21 you, we’re going to have some follow-up 22 questions because there’s some holes in there 23 that we would like to fill. This is like the 24 summary part. FY informed that she No w had been employed with the Bureau of Prisons EFTA00113983

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 since December 11, 1994 and promoted to 2 lieutenant around 2010 and has spent her entire 3 the Metropolitan Correctional wi jon Cc cr p-. oO it) | her correct that. Oo te oO rt 7 It’s not correct. So if you hear something 8 that’s not correct -- 10 Ee : -- just say that that’s 11 not correct. 3 a : If you hear anything, please 4 interrupt me and I’ll -. 16 lieutenant prior to coming here. I had - asa 7 matter of fact, I was promoted. I was given a 8 temporary position not to exceed a year as a 9 lieutenant back in I think it was 2000, 2001 20 when I was at MCC San Diego in California. And 21 I did - even after that year expired, I 22 remained in the lieutenant’s office for the 23 next three or four years after that until I 24 transferred. And so when I came here, when I left there, I went to be a counselor. And then EFTA00113984

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 ioe) York. This is 8 my fifth institution. io H o o 1) i] 3 om ) RK o o) bh a i) ioe) November of 2014. oO No Wa 25 that wrong. In addition to describing her EFTA00113985

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 administrative duties, Po described how a count at the MCC works and that the lieutenants are responsible for supervising one count per shift. Po described that during the count, two guards assigned to the area are to unlock the main gate that separates the cells from the open and common area where the guards are. One guard will walk down range and actually look into each cell and count the number of prisoners inside. Once the count is complete, the guard will return to the gate and exchange places with the guard that was left to secure the gate. That guard will then walk down range and count the number of prisoners in the cells. Upon completion, the guard will return to the gate, secure it from the outside, and record the numbers that came from their count. Those numbers will be compared to the master list of prisoners on record for being assigned to the cells. In addition to the numbers being recorded and compared to the master list or the I. sheet, the guards will call in or receive a call from internal and give a verbal record of their count. And internal. EFTA00113986

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 ee : Wait a minute. What is that again? ae : I’ll repeat that back. In addition to the numbers being recorded and compared to the master list or i- sheet, the guards will call in or receive a call from internal. a : Go ahead. You can tell me. take the count, once they have gone around to each range and both of them had counted each range, before they leave that range, they will compare their count for that particular range. And they would do that in each subsequent range. When they’ve completed, they call the control center. And they will call in their unit. They will call in the count that they got for that particular unit. They will give them their name, who conducted the count, and at that time, the control center will let them know whether they have a good count or a bad count. Internals position is to pick up those count slips after each unit has counted and place those counts slips out into their 21 EFTA00113987

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 respective sally port to be picked up by internal. They do not call. Internal has absolutely nothing to do with their count unless they get a bad count. Sometimes internal, or if we have other extra staff, they will go up there and they will assist them with the count. You know just to see maybe if one of them miscounted or something like that. They would just be like an additional person. A new set of eyes, basically, to assist them with the count. a : So before I continue, I hada question for you. Can you say the difference between internal and control? What exactly their duties are? ee : The internal officer is an officer who mans the elevator. He’s responsible for moving inmates around in the institution. He has - they have checks and stuff that they do throughout their shift. But mainly they’re responsible for moving inmates up throughout the institution. They respond to body alarms. They pick up the count slips. And they just have general duties throughout the night. They assist with the count EFTA00113988

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 throughout the night. But yes, once those 2 office if they w a bad count, they 3 count again. And then if they get another bad 4 count, a subsequent bad count, then internal or 5 Ww else available at the time 6 that’s not assigned to doing something else 7 will go in and conduct another count. But 8 internal would never just - they never report 9 to internal the results of their count. 10 11 On t 2 shift who was in internal. 3 a : Do you remember who was in 4 internal that night? a : What about control? don't want to guess. No. oO co 20 -. This is from those 21 nights. See I didn’t expect to remember. 22 That’s why I was just asking if you were table No ion) ct 0 bt Oo 12] fu ct ct a i] if @ | | 25 Ee : -- things and be able to EFTA00113989

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LIMITED ies) w oO co io 3 3 with two rosters. One t think you the 10:00 p.m. So -. a : The 10:00 p.m. And she too. August 9th and then also from August 10th. So I’m going to mark it Exhibit 1 on August 93th. 2 for August 10th. me know who the internal was and who the control was for those I'm currently looking at the assignment roster for Friday, rt u a : Let’s start with that on. And then the ning. EFTA00113990

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 3 c o a D a w o ra) trol ntrol room Oo And called with 25 call the control number two. EFTA00113991

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LIMITED Oo) Oo OFFICIAL U ee : And who was that again? ld he internal? Who was that? vening watch shift, you h an internal instance would ¢ slips? They would go to each EFTA00113992

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 3 Whether that be medical - wherever we had 4 inmates at that time, they would have been 5 picking up those count slips. Or sometimes if 6 unit team or somebody like that is here. And 7 they’re on the unit at the time, you know, 8 say if they’re on their way down 9 say I’1ll take the count slip down. So 10 it just depends on what day it 11 have going on during that specific time. But 2 for the most part, when no one else has 3 delivered the count slips down, it would be 4 | tsi*S Well, on this day, Friday, August 9th. It would have been between FY and | or both. 7 Ee : Great. Do you mind just w oO 8 - this is only so that we know what document 9 you’re looking at - do you mind just initialing 20 and dating and then circling the people that 21 you just discussed? 22 ee : Do you want me to 23 date each one? 24 ee : No-no. I’m sorry. Just on the top of the form, just an initial and the EFTA00113993

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE ie) o date. And then you can just circle the names of the people that you just said. Just for the purposes of the documents that we discussed will be attached to the transcript of this. k sure that we have the fu oO And it’s just to me right document. Thank you. We’1l come back to this. a : So I’m going to also present you with the roster for August 10, 2019. you do the sz internal and specific though between the hours of and 8:00 a.m.? ee : So between 10 p.m. and WN:—«s think the roster -. What’s the time that starts on the roster for August 10th? Midnight? ee : Midnight. Yeah. a : So let’s identify from midnight to let’s EFTA00113994

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 GE: «800 a.m. The same shift 2 that you were on. io) 4 Ww K om wu Dp ay. So I’m looking 5 at the assignment roster for Saturday, August 6 10, 2019. The control number one officer was 7 Ms. | who is non-custody. She worked in 8 the R&D - Receiving and Discharge department 9 for - she was on overtime. For day watch, 10 control number one is Officer i. Control 11 number two is Officer PI who was on overtim i) . For ev nN 0) ning watch, in the control ive) on o sition there was Officer || and Oo Pp 4 control two was Officer P| who was also 5 non-custody. 16 Ee : Now when they - when the 7 SHU officers would call control for the counts 8 during that shift, who is it that they would 9 have called? And which counts would have been called? For that shift? I think you said that 21 typically, actually i rr | | No Nm 23 ee : -- works from 10:00 p.m. 24 to 6:00 a.m. but it shows on their schedule 25 it’s 12:00 to 8:00. EFTA00113995

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LIMITED ho ho ho No i) ioe) w io © Wa OFFICIAL USE 30 wo 8:00 to = O co 4:00 to midnight. That’s correct. So who on the schedule then when the cial hous off would call in, who was it would call into? call control two. Now this is not all- use if control two is would call control one. Because control two would be you know sometimes handling back-to- answering ot wu =] 2. stuff to that nature as well. I mean EFTA00113996

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE ue] i) oO ie] p it) iT] mt i) Q w my hb fu 5 ite] Pp: 5 al K fe) 3 cr io” o (e) c rt i] bo jon tv) number trol would hav morning watch. There wouldn’t have been e been calling because I They would h a tI time or not. work from Those were would y watch call it. They special housing Well like I said, worked been calling -. control two -. a minute. Wait EFTA00113997

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LIMITED OFFICIAL So that’s so yeah. Let’s 2 say for instance the 12:00 p.m. count, the 3:00 ies) a.m. count, and the 5:00 a.m. count. Who would 4 have been called then on August 10th? wi They would have been 6 calling control number one because I don't 7 um -. They would have been 8 calling -. I want to say they was calling 9 control number one. Because at this time, it 10 look like we had a control number two. Because 11 there was a time when internal number two would 2 fill in for the control number two. But it 3 doesn’t look like this was during that time. 4 ee: To your best guess, who 15 of the officers in the special housing unit, 16 who would have been called? For the 12:00, the 7 3:00, and the 5:00 a.m. counts, who would have 8 been called on those? 20 calling the control center number one. 21 Ee : And who was that? t would have been Officer | said, was on overtime. She’s non- No ion) oo cas) o n Pp Ph ct ct a fu No cS o) ~ = b- = i) + 1) No wm a =] if ct 2) QA a) works in the R&D department. EFTA00113998

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO co io ioe) oO co © nN ion) wi Lo OFFICIAL USE 33 where she’s for those same c 2:00 -m 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m., who from internal would have ty i) Q fw use on morning watch, it looks like there was two. But I’m trying to remember at that time if um -. ternal two would assist there on morning watch there was Officer | and Office K || who was on overtime. i” was on overtime for midnight to 8:00. So betw ld have been picking That’s internal would And internal number EFTA00113999

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 two was Officer ia. he was on overtim 0) 3 much. é ee : Can the same with 5 that? Just 6 ae : Just circle the names 7 just initia 8 9 know what I’m 10 doing? t No H 3 o ct rt b rt y @ is) fu ct @ c Ww re) rh + a hy H oO es] ct o H fe) = a @ K 1) 14 ee: Yeah, I know. You want 15 16 the 18 ie) 19 going to mark as 20 will be Exhibit 1. 22 If you’re doing exhibits, this is 95 EFTA00114000

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ee : Because we’re probably going to have to go back to this, I wouldn’t Wo wi ies) mark them as exhibits. 4 ee : Okay. No problem. ee : Because this is always going to be Exhibit 1. 7 a : I understand. Just to w oO 8 clarify before we move forward. How many 9 counts take place at the MCC? Daily? 10 ee: It depends. During 11 the week we have the -. Let’s start with day 2 watch. Day watch we ve the 4:00 p.m. count. 3 Evening watch we have the l( p.m. count. 4 Morning watch we have the 12:00 a.m., 15 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. So five. On weekends 16 and holidays, we have an additional count of 7 10:00 a.m. which is added for weekends and 8 holidays. 9 a : Okay. Thank you. So I’m 20 going to go back and I’m going to continue 21 reading from that spot. So I’m going to reread 22 that line and we’ll move forward. 24 a : In addition to the numbers 25 being recorded and compared to the master list EFTA00114001

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or I- sheet, the guards will call in or receive a call from internal and give a verbal record of the account and internal will compare that number to the number that they have on file and advise the count matches and is good or does not match and a count needs to be conducted again. You clarified that. You explained how the control and the internal works. The count slips prepared by the guards are then placed in the area for pickup by another guard assigned in the MCC and brought to control for review. In addition to the official counts that are to be conducted at specific times during each shift, JR- | informed that the guards are also responsible for conducing rounds every 30 to 40 minutes. During the rounds, the guards simply walk the range and view that the prisoners are alive and in their cells with no issues. The number of prisoners is not recorded, but simply the fact that a round was conducted. And the officers who conducted it is. When asked, WSs Gated that she has no knowledge of rounds or counts not being conducted and that no one would tell her if that were the EFTA00114002

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u ~] LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 case. ies) w oO co io QoQ 12 ee : That would be in SHU. 13 4 its 16 but on the other units, and even in ed to be irregular. supposed or something like 23 EFTA00114003

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 hangover just for that -- ee : -- so that the rounds can be irregular if you get tied up. Because when you’re making rounds, inmates will stop you. They will hold conversations with you and ask questions. You know and so it’s hard to keep those rounds within those guidelines because there’s always something to trip you up. When you’re making rounds you may notice something out of place, so that would stop you. But as far as those rounds getting conducted, those rounds are supposed to be conducted on an irregular basis. But do understand that there are things that will trip you up. So sometimes you may be on time. Sometimes you -. It’s hard to fall within those guidelines because you’re - it’s live time. Everything is live. So you can’t predict what’s going to happen while you’re making your rounds. a : Understood. And that was a summary of your interview. So as you can see, we have a few questions we want to follow -. ee : And we’ve got -. EFTA00114004

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LIMITED OFFICIAL a w tm Ww wo 2 emergencies. You have inmates that are 3 complaining, wait until you start making your 4 rounds to complain about being in pain or 5 something that’s hurting them. Or a lot of 6 general stuff. They’ll ask you questions just 4 i about anything when you’re making rounds. Mm-hmm. wo 10 a : I’m going to go back to my 11 interview now and I have a few questions for 2 you. If there were instructions of guidance 3 from upper management, how would you receive 4 them? 15 ee : It depends. During 16 that time, they made -. Whoever was in the 7 office may come and say something to the person 8 in the office. And it was left up to everybo 9 else to get that information from that 20 individual. 21 a : in the office at that 22 point? I mean is a certain person assigned to 23 the office or it could be anybody in the 24 office? EFTA00114005

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) w ~ Like a - when I say the office, I’m talking about like the lieutenants’ office. So sometimes they would just - and more often than not - they would just i a ct Dy wu rt o in the office. An bh i) n supposed to get that information. a : If there were instructions from the lieutenants, who would give it? ee : We would expect the captain to give it. es : Did the instructions that would come from above the captain? Or was it always from the captain? RE: on don't -. mean, from time to time, some of the AWs would put things out. But the normal chain would be through the captain because that was our immediate supervisor. a : Okay. If you had important details to discuss with your subordinates or who report to you, how would you communicate that to them? ee : One more time. ae : If you had important details or instructions you wanted to discuss with your EFTA00114006

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 subordinates or COs, correctional officers, who report to you, how would you communicate those instructions to them? ee : I usually did it when I made my rounds. And I would tell them. But you could also do a thing such as 3-3-3s. And that way, that’s when everybody come on the line and you could do it that way. But you really didn’t have time. It was easier to just tell everybody individually because that way you’re with them in person. And it’s just easier for you to do it at that time because if they had questions, then they could ask you questions. And when you’re doing over the phone at the hole, you’re sitting in the office. So you’re really not getting anything done, you know. At least if I’m making my rounds, I’m getting my rounds done and I’m doing my - passing down information to my staff at the same time. And also it lets me know that you got it. I’m telling you. it’s just you and me. There’s no distractions in the background. There’s nothing else going on. But it just depends on the person. MN: oxy. EFTA00114007

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 information to each individual staff. ae : Would you communicate that directly with your COs or would you tell another CO to pass on the message? ee : It depends on what the information was. I mean things that you want them to know and definitely. If it was something that was a new policy or procedure or something like that, you would definitely want to tell them yourselves because at that time, like I said, there wasn’t anything coming out in writing. That’s generally how new policy and procedure is put in place. You know you either receive a memorandum saying starting with this memorandum or starting with - effective today or some other date, this is what we’re going to be doing. That’s generally how that information is put out. Or some type of manual or something like that is updated. Those are the ways that it’s generally put out. That way you have the information there and you can refer back to it as needed. ae : What if it involved an inmate? Like certain instructions for certain EFTA00114008

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo 95 OFFIC 43 How would that come out? Would that or would that be writ on, like I rmation. on shift during th i) 9th when came day, you said you were working ernight. on shift August 9th nighttime? Morning watch? hnic fou remember? 9th going into a A about EFTA00114009

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LIMITED 1 Oo) Oo OFFICIAL ao ugust 10th day. And come back at 10: EFTA00114010

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 that’s what I wanted to yu don't recall but o ct My + a 1) i) Q Zz i) on i fe @ what is that showing? What time did you leave on August 9th mornir left probably - it w was relieving 10 me. I probably would h left probably f o o fu -m. By 6:00 a.m., 17 would you happen to have heard if there was an oo being re 19 come afterwards? Let’s 22 ee : I don't recall. What day did Epstein die? No EFTA00114011

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LIMITED Oo) Oo y- ee : Well that’s when he ee : He was found August 10th morning. riday morning. hy morning. morning. 1 did the you left. And then came back August until 6:00 a.m. a : Now I’m talking about August EFTA00114012

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE 47 August 9th -. a : The reason I’m asking is I’m just trying to clarify. Would you have known instructions came about inmates having to be brought out for court or anything like that. Would you have about it before you wu 0 H I mean I may h Okay. But does it happen s after or it happen that are going to court? I mean if it involv me. Say if we had an inmate up on 10 South. those inmates up there are generally 3- inmate th EFTA00114013

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO 22 FY : No problem. Now with you work in the rs SHU suicide before? Do you recall around EFTA00114014

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo Oo a wu Ao i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 4 wo remember? Like a n hort summary what transpired? the special housing unit. I think when we got oO fh there and Officer Thomas was working that day. When we got there, the officer informed us that an inmate had tried to hurt himself. So we go up to the cell and it’s Epstein. seemingly out of it I guess you could Fh B 2) ie) ial it) say. But when we tap him and we move him, we y , A could see him kind of looking up at us. But then he would close his eyes like he didn’t want us to know that he was actually conscious. He wouldn’t respond to us. rom But we knew that he was okay. He was breathing. And like I said, he would look up at us from time to time. When he didn’t think c that we were looking at him. ee : What happened after EFTA00114015

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 Was Epstein placed on suicide watch or psych all night 19 long he was on suicide watch? I don't rom suicide watch? EFTA00114016

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co 20 No N No Wa observation? Or -? don't remember if he went from suicide watch t Pp h ops or if he went from suicide wa straight back to the special a : So suicide watch - where doe sing unit. a : Second floor. What unit? a : Medical? ee : It’s right out -. It’s like an extens to the medical unit slash -. At that time, we had - is our medical floor aside from the housi OFFICIAL USE 51 fe) EFTA00114017

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LIMITED oO w ot) oO co OFFICIAL USE assigned with a cellmate? to go through each. Did you instruction from Captain J in Do you recall cting that a : And who is that? It’s 76318-054 email wu from Darlene a is the inmate is being EFTA00114018

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE with an oused What’s the appropriate cell ieutenants group, don't he sent it to more than hrough the recipients. the likely in alphabeti even remember EFTA00114019

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 committee meeting was just the 5 hig w ot) 14 going to through the 25 co EFTA00114020

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LIMITED EFTA00114021

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 6 7 co ions with them about Epstein requiring Lod t J t c ) 0 No rar ho ho mn) i Q oO oO EFTA00114022

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LIMITED oO oO OFFICIAL U a : How about know who you recall who was period? fou remember if he had talking about July had one or EFTA00114023

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw o 1 with you. No. equirements of him having a cellmate either? tt aware of any ies) a] 1] I wasn’t even aware 5 some information 6 the fact that he needed to have a 7 cellmate. I would think that they would be - 8 that that would be something that they would 9 verbalize °o Oo ral w K 11 ee : That they would make sure that we individually -. That they would i n sure that we all read that WwW a J o a ~ rr oO =] 7 i oO 16 ee : I mean if it was 7 something that was critical -. Because he was 8 on suicide watch. And because of the 9 circumstances that surrounded him. I would 20 expect for them to follow-up and make sure that read that email and we were all aware he was to have a cellie. No Nm ct a fw rt No ion) would you expect to do EFTA00114024

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) uw \o psychology to follow-up with us. I would expect for definitely the captain to get with us individually and tell us. ee : Hold a lieutenant’s meeting or something to let us know that we were to make sure that he had a cellmate. a : Okay. If - let’s say. Have you ever dealt with an inmate that required a cellmate before? No. a : But do you -? Okay. You never have. But if let’s say an inmate was required to have a cellmate. And that cellmate was removed for whatever reason. Do you know what the procedure would be? ee : If an inmate was required to have a cellmate. And everybody knew. Because when you’re talking about an inmate that needs a cellmate, it’s not just the lieutenants who work with that inmate. The officers are the ones who are assigned to that inmate housing unit. Around the clock, 24/7. So you would definitely want that information. EFTA00114025

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That should be an all staff email to be honest with you. Because that way everybody in the institution knows that there’s an important reason why that inmate needs a cellmate. And that way if at some point in time it’s not happening or there’s a lapse in that, everybody knows. So you’ve got - because you have staff making rounds around the institution on the housing units and all of that stuff all the time. You know. different members of the institution staff. So that would be an all staff email just to alert everybody in the institution that, you know, if you’re ever in that area and you come across this inmate and he doesn’t have a cellie, then you need to follow-up, ask why, make sure somebody knows that that inmate don't have a cellie. ae : I’m going to clarify. Based on the fact that based on what we - our investigation. Inmate Efren Reyes was assigned as a cellmate for Jeffrey Epstein. CS: 02 ee : And he was required - according to psychology - he was required to have a cellimate. Now Inmate Efren Reyes was EFTA00114026

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) removed from the MCC on August 3th morning during the day watch. Now based on - I’m going to read you the names again. Right. And you just tell me. You might not know it directly, but who would be responsible to take what action when they found out that Efren Reyes was removed. If there was a requirement, that Epstein had to have a cellmate at all times, and his cellmate was removed, who would be responsible to take action? And I’m going to mention the names. Let me know what their role would have been and what action they should have taken. ee : You’re telling -. You want me to tell you that. That’s if in fact they knew -. ee: Yeah. If in fact they knew. ee : Yeah. If in fact they knew that he was supposed to have a cellie. ee : You know. Not assuming that he had a cellie. go back and circle back to this. Not only - so EFTA00114027

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 if he’s naming a name, say what action should taken and who should told them ioe) to the need to have Well I would wi 6 know what position those officers had -- io 15 (Indiscernible i) rt it] n w w iat oO & o - 8) us G fw 3 fu a. eel 17 from his cell l 18 think he was removed from the institution © 0 7) h- n = somewhere around 1:30 p.m. So No 0 5 + ct 5 w fs) ¢ K ct Ae} j Q ct a i oO ' AD he was gone. ho rar y much ho 3 =] O ct t fh pu ion a 1) O) coming back. So I'll No rt with ytain N EFTA00114028

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 2 should have known. 3 a : How would he have known? Who 4 should have made him aware of it? 5 ee : Let’s just - instead of 6 going through it, let’s just first start with 7 going from the bottom up. Who should have 8 known that he was removed? And how should the 9 chain of command have gone up? Looking at that 10 duty schedule roster. 11 es : Yeah. Based on that. Who 2 should have initially known that he was 3 removed? 15 known initially that the inmate was removed. 16 Now whether or not they would have known that 7 he was Epstein’s cellie is something different. 20 information had put out because Epstein was a 21 high-profile inmate. He had just attempted 22 suicide. That should have been an all-staff 23 email. That should have alerted everybody. 24 And not only tt but when that happens. 25 First of all, when Epstein originally arrived EFTA00114029

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to the MCC, Epstein should have been placed on 10 South. That’s our - what they consider the maximum-security unit here. He never should have been placed on 10 South anyway because you’re not guaranteed that anybody in this building is going to maintain a cellie because it’s an administrative institution. Inmates come and go all the time. So there’s - they don't have a sentence date. And with that said, that means that at any point and time while we’re sitting here, the courts can release somebody and that inmate is gone right now. So to put out an email to certain individuals and not make that an all-staff email so that it would -. And I guess we have to go back and say what was the intentions of that? If it’s something that you feel is concerning and that absolutely needs to happen because you still feel that this inmate is at risk, then you say to yourself, well why is he being released from suicide watch? Or psych ops. Why, you know? If you feel that this inmate still needs this type of supervision. And if the answer to that is yes, he still needs that type of supervision, then you would EFTA00114030

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recommend that, you know, why don't you keep him?? Why aren’t you maintaining him? You know. On watch? If he requires that type of supervision? Or why - since you didn’t do it to begin with - which they should have done. Considering he was high-profile, he was an at- risk inmate, just the fact that he was a high- profile inmate, he should have been placed on 10 South. After he attempted suicide and they determined that they was going to remove him from that and required him to have a cellie. Then they should have either made it an all- staff email, made sure everybody was aware - everybody. Not just -. And it’s difficult because people are on days off, people are on vacation, people are on sick leave, you see what I’m saying? ME: oy. ee : So for somebody like Epstein. Epstein should have automatically gone to 10 South where he would have had 24- hour monitoring on him at all times. ee : Okay. Assuming that the CO - Let’s start with the COs. Assuming the COs in the SHU knew that this was a requirement. EFTA00114031

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL USE 66 If he was removed at 8:30, who is responsibility would it have been to notify upwards? ee : It would have been any of their responsibility if they were there at the time and they were aware that he was being moved or if they knew that he was even supposed to on for the oe) I ee : Day watch on August 9th would have been Officer a. Joiner, a. and a. a : Okay. And what would - if they knew that Epstein was required to have a ficer cellmate, what should they have done? Epstein required a cellie, and his cellie was released, if they knew he wasn’t coming back. I mean I don’t know if they knew that when the cellie left that he was never coming back. I don't know what any of these people were told. So I’ 3 just assuming here. If his cellie was EFTA00114032

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 released, and they knew for a fact that he 2 wasn’t coming back, and if they knew that he have a cellie, which I doubt. Ww w U un c ue] ue] is) un D oF c Oo 4 Because I didn’t even know it. So -. a : Let’s just assume they knew. 6 Let’s just go from there. If they knew. w 2 a i) c b @ on 5 12] , the lieutenant’s tl oO Fh rh Bb a 0) oO 5 oO oO rt 2 them 4 called the lieutenant’s 5 would the lieutenant’s office have done? 7 followed up. They would have been like okay, oO 8 if they didn’t know already, they would have 9 determined what’s the status of this cellmate. 20 What is -? Is he coming back? They probably 21 would have moved Epstein out of that cell or 22 immediately put another inmate in the cell with 23 him. 95 . Ru whe arn? res 25 : But when you're EFTA00114033

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE o ao 1 talking about somebody like Epstein, you just 2 can’t just put any inmate in that cell with 3 Epstein. So you know, you kind of have to seek 4 guidance on that and tell - let somebody know 5 what you have going on so they can determine 6 who they want in the cell with Epstein. Which 7 is why it goes back to 10 South. That’s why he 8 should have been on 10 South because you can’t. 9 He’s not one of those inmates that you can just 10 put anybody in his cell with him. eked 11 es : Who would you have - s guidance from? oO nN Ww o v t fea) 4 Oo wu if] ri) B Q 5 i Te} oO ct fw 3 oO = r 3 =] fu ct oO 7 for Epstein Who do you think? Because you 8 said he’s high profile. Who would you -? No Nm | | ct ion w rt re) is 23 cellie that he had had been released and asked 24 him you know how do you want us to move 25 forward? EFTA00114034

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co its) No No Wa i) OFFICIAL USE Who do cell with him? uld report it to tt would have captain and they someone higher up should have assigned a ellmate o aware had a cellmate that he was supposed to based upon that email first time, I’m here. group somebo lieutenant or th brought it up and if they and They would have a. these that knew, they would h somebo And um -. How soon should have an told somebody. If th EFTA00114035

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo ho N No Wa OFFICIAL USE a: I’m not going to go through plained this from the bottom wanted to clarify. conauct shift? rounds in the What rounds did you do. Do count or rounds did you do in EFTA00114036

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LIMITED Oo Oo probably mid-morning I y round rant round a : Mid-mornin lieut Lieutenant rounds. morning night. I was running Let’s clarify this there mid-morning. Probably. EFTA00114037

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO fos) wo ioe) oO fee) © ion) wi OFFICIAL US tH ~ } a : Now I just have two to conduct r Q nds? To make sure that the ‘re still breathing. That there is ng illegal or unauthorized going on inside the institution. Just to make sure okay. have to conduct counts? conduct counts and rounds? u explained in o is your previ = responsible for conducting the rounds. it) fu supervisor, mentioned in y ur previous interview that should also n conduct one rounc per -. One count or one round? I EFTA00114038

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ee : Each lieutenant is required to make rounds during their shift. Whether that be the operations lieutenant or whether that be the activities lieutenant. Just a lieutenant. It doesn’t have to be both. If I’m operations lieutenant and I have an activities lieutenant assigned, both of us don't have to make rounds. The lieutenant - a lieutenant just have to make rounds during each - m pective shift. they have to go to or can it be anything? making rounds, the idea is to go to each there specific units that fo housing unit. | «= Now depending on what you have going on during the night, sometimes you may get that done. Sometimes you don't. I mean there may be a lot going on at the institution that you may not get around to making the rounds done during your shift. a : Okay. I want to take a quick detour. I’m going to show you two documents. Can you show me what that is a map of? i] EFTA00114039

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LIMITED problem. How many o — w let Oo I’m going \\ r rt oO cument. ho Wa wu EFTA00114040

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 all the housin units. Well it 3 i sing units and how many 4 unit at 5 inted. time is that for? o 5 wv rt te) a= n ie] 5 fe! ) w 5 11 WN: Can you find the count for in there? You can flip through it. ioe) oO oo wo No Wa unit, it would be ZA. And August 10, EFTA00114041

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 16 will tell y there might going. It’ll te did the counts. 1 recall who -? on the docume And who did the 12 midnight? with the count d from the unit and he was had re on - he was being housed in the holding cells in R&D on I don't know what. I don't remember w EFTA00114042

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~ I LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 some reason -. I want to say. I don't know if ies) he was on dry cell or what his status was. I don't think he was wi 6 on suicide watch. I can’t remember. 7 a : You said dry cell. Now dry 8 cell. Is that in R&D? 9 ee : No. That’s not in 10 R&D. Usually dry cell is done in the special 11 housing unit. So I can’t remember what his 2 status was but he was -. I can’t remember if 3 he was on dry cell or if he was on - if that 4 was an extension of the I can’t 15 remember, but there was an inmate down there. 16 And he was being housed down there with the 7 watch on that particular night. And they were 8 counting him on the unit because they hadn’t 9 received any guidance as to how he was going to 20 be counted. Because R&D, mind you, is the 21 intake unit. It’s not a housing unit. 24 theoretically are not supposed to be staying - spending the night down there. EFTA00114043

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LIMITED OFFIC 3 s do. 5 an inmate to would it be for? Are they o fy rt leaving the 7 (Indiscernible *01:14:14)? 8 oO oo No EFTA00114044

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LIMITED ies) w oO ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 7 io Their count w originally 73. But then you U have an inmate in RA from special housing. an outcount. You do an outcount when an inmate is in a different area than where he is housed. inmates. If 73 is your base, if you’ve got an inmate from that area on outcount, then that’s not a good count. a : Right. So the count. So let’s get it right. According to the records, how many inmates should have been at the 12:00 p.m. count. How many inmates should have been in the SHU? because when y initially did this, that’s how they was counting the inmates. It wasn’t until I started doing that count that I realized that something wasn’t right. So EFTA00114045

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 oO 1 that’s how we got around to there’s an inmate 2 in R&D. You know that’s being housed down 3 there on watch. You know. That’s how we got to 4 that it’s like oh, there’s an inmate in w wm im o K oO c ~ S ° = r a fon ct p oO 5 o c n ct w ini ct w it) — b 5 ei 6 questions. Why is he there? What’s the deal 7 ; +m? R a ; nfor : ~ 7 with him? Because none of this information was 8 passed down. Oo Oo oO x fw fe fe) H oO Q fe} t to ask 11 the staff what’s going on. I’m going to clarify. I’m nN Ww Q fe) pp 5 wW rr oO wW oO on nt] 0 * My question is at midnight, 4 who did the count for the SHU? 5 ee : According to this, it says Thomas and Noel. 7 WN:«ss Alvight. If they did the count and how many people are supposed to do oO co 9 the count? 22 the SHU and they did a head count, right. How 23 many people should they have down? 25 gotten 72. But what I’m telling you is when EFTA00114046

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 this count was done, they were counting this inmate that was in R&D on that count because no one had told them that the inmate was actually somewhere else. And he was being counted in that area. So they were logging -. So what I understand - and that’s how they understood it. That that inmate was being carried on to their count. ee: Even though they didn’t get eyes on the inmate? Even though they don't know physically. If they physically cannot see the inmate, they’re allowed to put it in their count? HE :| §9= Because the inmate is being ghosted. They could call R&D and ask and say he is the inmate there. Because there was a staff member on the inmate. The problem was not how many inmates they had or what’s counted. The problem was the status of this inmate that was in R&D. ee : They didn’t’ know the status of the inmate in R&D whether he was going to be -. Whether he was staying there altogether or how they were supposed to EFTA00114047

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B82 w ~] ive) indicate him on their count slip. They didn’t know any of that. That wasn’t until they brought this to my attention. And this was the original count slip. There was another count slip that they supposed to have been completing. And place that in the Sally port, but apparently nobody picked it up. So this was the original count slip that was submitted. ee : But they were supposed to -. Once we corrected this issue, with the dude in - with the guy in R&D and put him on an outcount. And place him in R&D, then they were supposed to go back, recount. They were supposed to recount and then they was to submit another count slip. ee: Okay. That’s what I’m getting to. HN:—- So©:swho found out that there fu was an error with the count? Did they notify you or did you found -? ee : Right. Right. When they called. I think we kind of hashed it out together. EFTA00114048

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LIMITED ies) w oO a 2) fo) a w kK to 0) Q i] Cc 7] 0) H Q wo ° N ive) oO oo No N N ion) OFFICIAL US nm 4 oo ios) Okay. You know because they were saying that they had an inmate that was not on the unit. And they was like well what uess -. I don't know what had happened, but they knew that the guy wasn’t on the unit. So they was trying to get it corrected. ee : And of course we king questions. Where is this inmate n ct i K rt i) 2. wu n at? What is he doing there? How long he’s been there. Dah-dah-dah-dah. But again, this is count time. So y ve just got to do the best you can because we’ve got a count to clear. You know. a : Do you recall. Sorry. You had a question. ME: «| jest want to that we’re clear. So did they call in 73 sure le without saying this is with a guy that’s not actually here. Or did they just call in 73 and someone said how is this 73 if you guys only EFTA00114049

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U Oo 13 calling -. 3 and - t o No-no-no-no-no. 17 Ee : -- someone said how 22 ee : No-no-no-no-no. When 23 in 2y was like 9 EFTA00114050

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LIMITED Oo) a s what our numbers e, but one guy is not here. didn’t know And th the status of that inmate. ee: Yeah. Like wait, how are no-no. on the unit? EFTA00114051

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co io ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE oy So he - so Thomas is the one who called that count? Rather than Noel? Thomas. I don't think I s Yoel about though. But you -- Ee : -- believe it was Thomas. said well how you have your unit right now? How many bodies? And he said 72. And I 1 because I need to call to see this body. -. I need to know And you EFTA00114052

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo And then send me a new count slip. a : So you instructed them to do they did the said -- I was in the with the I ew guy, would they be required to actually do a new count? Or just fill out a new count slip? o doa Just to make sure. EFTA00114053

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LIMITED io 3 OFFICIAL USE 88 new count? I told them to you provided to n't know specifi y if it was a said, you know, what did you all count. He said we counted 72. And know, count again. two p - you believe it I can figure out whether or not -. I want to know EFTA00114054

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 wo ether or not this is actually in SHU. 2 3 in R&D. 4 and make 5 ing to m I’m 6 I’m thinking to 7 I called. And there’s 8 nobody down there. I wanted to make sure that 9 this is actually the count. 2 ee : And I want to make sure 3 so that something else is clear. When 4 that 5 s rounds Not conducting rounds with the C s 7 to go around to 8 That’s 9 round? opposed to participating in a count 20 or a round with the conducting of inmates? 21 Do you follow -- We are not required cell and look at the EFTA00114055

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 inmates. When we make rounds, we get with the officers. We make sure that -. I mean if we choose to do that we can. But -. requirement? For your requirement, that one per shift of round. That’s to do rounds with your officer - or with your staff - as opposed to conducting a round with them? ee : No. There was nothing here said to us or in policy telling us that we needed to go around -- : sere. ee : -- on each housing unit to each individual cell and check on the inmates. If we chose to do that based upon something that we knew wasn’t right or something that we had heard or something like that during the course of our shift. Then that - and we felt as though we needed to double check on it. Because our officers are our eyes and ears. And during that time, we didn’t’ have a whole lot of time. We would spend half of our shift just trying to fill overtime. At that time. ee : So are you supposed to EFTA00114056

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LIMITED ho KK i) ie) wo Ww wo nN Wa wi OFFICIAL USE 91 I can’t remember at count per shift is what we’re required to do as a lieutenant. ee : One count with inmates? One count in the So -. You’re i) wn putting with -. For “ance, in this case, if Noel and Thomas are in the SHU, they’re doing a 12:00 a.m. O00 a.m. count, and a 5:00 a.m. count. Are counts with them? EFTA00114057

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 cally, I’m talking about the 12:00 a.m. or any 4 lieutenants that have 5 with them? 6 No. 8 No. that oO a =] a t > D tai fi) = wu 7) ct wu ct 12 ee : And you hadn’t done one J t ur requirements are not toward t o 0 wu K 0) Q. ct Oo ry K fol oF) rt fu aa hh 3 3 5 ny i] w 23 24 center. We’re required to take one 95 EFTA00114058

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 93 ee : Sure. And this is the one you did. You did the 12:00 a.m.? eee : This is the one count thing right. Ee : -- calling you that is calling you and providing yunt and tha the count that So he didn’t call control rol, but you were the person oO Right. EFTA00114059

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U 10: But I didn’t tak Oo know when the inmate was count. Would they EFTA00114060

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo 19 OFFICIAL USE a : No-no. But asked fo you fixe r the - show you the 10 - two more documents. . Let’s do nt. What is a look at this docume a : And what’s t moved prior to this count, to technically the count for the wrong? And w Ww mm . he count the officers were told because is not a have been mc Something -. the i- for hat’s the for RA? on what EFTA00114061

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co wo OFFICIAL USE wo an been some guidance that - where they was told because this inmate was there all night with a watch on him. a : Which inmate? The one in R&D? taken to -- a : What was the watch for? ee : -- just put an inmate in R&D and just leave him there. There’s nobody to watch him. R&D staff leaves at 19-nn c 10:00. o you can’t just leave an inmate there with nobo for an inmate that they do not get their eyes EFTA00114062

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 MS: epending on who gave SE SE w ~ 2 them the instruction as to how that inmate was 3 going to be accounted for. wi H rh rt a w ct | if) w het | bh hh 6 that. If that inmate was 10:00 7 count, depending on how they were guided 8 because I mean they know the an inmate can’t 9 be in R&D by himself eit! So depending on 10 how that inmate was being counted, t y 1 have been given instructions somebody to 2 ghost him. And count him in SHU. I don't 3 know. I can’t explain that. 4 a : So COs have the ability, it’s 5 to do 16 that? 7 ME; "© co what? don't have eyes on, oo eal mH rr a i) 1} 9 from another 20 your count? 22 someone in their chain of command that would 23 ou know? EFTA00114063

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo i=) ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL USE over the lieutenant’s head because no lieutenant is going to - that knew at the time - that I worked with at the time - would have an inmate in a different area knowing tha tha rt inmate was not going to be coming back to tha rt a oO Cc i] 5 Q = =] pp rt right now is we don't know when the inmat i) moved. Right? can’t tell you when the inmate was moved. That happened before I got there. What specific time he was moved, I don't know. didn’t’ Let’s say the inmate was moved and th get the aut ization Would the count have been from the captain. wrong? I don't -. You know s far as I know, it could have been someone above the captain. I don't kn I can’ ct provide you with an adequa answer because -- oing to go past that. No problem. ee : So I’m going to show you. wo oo I EFTA00114064

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LIMITED oO io Ww oO oo wo KK Ww OFFICIAL USE 99 Ss. I’m going to more document. What is F? that should be the ee : Yes. This would have been for the 4 what is outcount? right here. count is the - pointing to. That would be inmate EFTA00114065

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 5 housing -. I have -. It could be a number of o what is the count Oo 22 going EFTA00114066

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LIMITED ~~] ~ OFFICIAL U think it was -. ign it and date it ee : I don't remember what time. It was like halfway between my shift later on in the morning. Thomas and EFTA00114067

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE Noel. 102 J =] E Did you speak to them? n Yes. ee : Okay. And everything was complaints or U They were fine. recall your 10 So came left. twice them I get South and make my rounds don't rec 1, but I spoke to I stopped there. I uth and I made my rounds up there. Hh fe) ia 0 4 back and I spoke with them again be U fe) he (e) fc spoke with tt 5 Yeah. I spoke with initially. And I told them you know when back out -. I’m going to run up to 10 books a gn my I’ll there. And then back with get up on my way down. their round shee EFTA00114068

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 Now you mentioned that you 2 don't know - you never heard of the requirement 3 for Epstein needing a cellmate. Right? w we kK Oo = Q p- Q =) rt ny o Oo 6 According to what you said before, you didn’t 0] ven know the COs knew that requirement. co If I didn’t know, I oO = 3 oO = ct i oO ey didn’t know. And according to that 10 se I don't even see -. Where is that 1 email? Because I want to see who did they N fu Q + c ry] I b ifs o 5 o ct a oY] rt rt Oo Hi Ph Bb rt a) fu fe ifs ie) 5 rt is om = iv] im I WwW 5 Oo rt a o kK ifs) o 5 rt rt a w ct rt oO 5 it up to all and. oO co 21 And this was supposed to be 22 that he was required to have a cellmate while 23 he was in the SHU. 25 MYM all. EFTA00114069

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 104 os) iB 2 rt wn 0 n re} e w fu B io) think it should have gone to all staff. K This is only ver is in that Suicide wa a wu These are ced in that -- Because I can EFTA00114070

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 assure you that’s not all of them. not all of them. n 3 Yeah So I don't know how they actually chose 4 it. But you said you know you were on it but 5 you don't recall receiving it. 6 ee : I do not recall 7 receiving that. 8 ee : Now do you know -? I 9 don't know how it works here. I mean are you 10 in front of your computer? Do you read your 11 emails? How is that? 3 will be honest with you. I didn’t have time to 4 read any emails because in addition to not 15 having a lot of staff, we had a bunch of 16 incidents that were going on during that time as well. 20 alarms and stuff like that that was going on. 21 And because of the fact that we were so short- 22 handed, you didn’t have time to read emails and 23 stuff at the time. You just had too much to do 24 with the time in your shift. It was just way 25 too much. EFTA00114071

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LIMITED io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 106 I can I didn’t it work -? you walk me through s had a cellmate. had a cellmate at all? had a cellmate or not. h @ ME: i2en 211 of this had a cellmate and the inmate was removed. But as far as me having personal knowlec or not he had a cellmate, I didn’t EFTA00114072

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 4 1 if he had a cellmate or not. I assumed he had ies) w 6 needs a cellmate. Where was the communication breakdown there? 9 It should have been everybody. 11 is though, who is responsible for that? nN The - you would think ive) ct + wu rt psychology would have called us or 4 somebody should have been making sure. 16 through that. From p who should - 7 who dropped the ball here? 8 ee : Well I’m not going to 9 say anybody dropped the ball because it’s all 20 about responsibilities to - 21 Ee : But somebody - psychology 22 I guess made the note. So is it the person she gone around and aside from 25 sending this email should have she spoken to EFTA00114073

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) aa 5 o rr on fu rt “- w iQ fe) F =] Q oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 108 people or had a meeting? What should have happened? she -. I just i u feel as though they that - to communicate -. Like I said originally. My whole thing was Epstein should have been placed on 10 South to begin with because he was that type of inmate that checked all the boxes for - to be one of my follow-up questions is what the difference between the SHU and 10 specifically to this, like what should have psychology done differently? ee : I would have made sure - I just would have -. I just would have made sure that everybody -. I never even would have sent Epstein back to -. I would have never even put him back in that position again. Hs: «= So if he had -. ee : If he had a cellm because even saying that he had a cellmate. te iv] EFTA00114074

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LIMITED No No iN ies) .) w co ioe) co © ion) H OFFICIAL USE 109 Even telling somebody that he should hav Still wouldn’t vented him from trying to harm himself. We had just went that. him. That got to the thro. scenario when they g memo being done. ee : The other lieutenants though in this case, they knew that he was a cellmate. Correct? here? So it interviews, it like you were the one that didn’t know. that would have been? Who should have made sure you knew that he needed a cellmate? would think whoever t he needed an inmate. EFTA00114075

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 saying. Everyone else know. So like all the 2 other lieutenants and the captain. They all 3 said that they were aware that he was required 4 to have a cellmate. So the question -. So I 5 don't know if they got the information from the 6 email, if there was an all-hands. Who should ~] have made sure that you knew that he had a 8 cellmate? 9 ee : Okay. So if they 10 knew that. If everybody is saying that they 11 knew he should have had a cellmate, then why 2 didn’t he have one? 3 Ee : That’s the -. 16 Ee : That’s the reason 7 we're talking with you. That is the big issue 8 of why didn’t he have one? Who? Where was the 9 communication breakdown? 21 Ee : So should have the 22 captain told you that? Should have the person 23 who relieved you that day? Should have that 24 person told you? Hey just so you know, Epstein 25 doesn’t have a cellmate. EFTA00114076

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 111 relieved for someone o by the 1 email saying that we were notified tt Yeah. That lieutenant. : You relieved him. I would have - Yeah. That would he would have relieved that’s August 9th. You het -m. So let’s how it shows here. EFTA00114077

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LIMITED Oo) Oo OFFICIAL U 112 that would =ning watch of -. I would w would then -? Or something. In the real world in a real institution that which it should. Sure. wrong. EFTA00114078

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LIMITED Oo) Oo or that at that particular time Mm-hmm. Um....this with a numk - an unusual amount EFTA00114079

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 w ~] of shanks, cell phones, drugs. Inmates were going out of their mind on drugs and all this other stuff. We had inmates fighting, inmates getting stabbed, inmates getting slashed. There were -. In addition to everything else that we had to take care of. We were doing uses of forces. We didn’t’ have adequate staff to even do a use of force or even to respond to a body alarm a lot of times. There were incidents where we as lieutenants were the only people here and had to do things. So -. ee : So there’s just overwhelming -. You guys were just completely overwhelmed. In the weeds. ee : We -. At that time, there was just so much going on. ee : You would be hell- bent to stay abreast of every little thing that was going on. You just -. When your relief came, you know, you was like let me get some fresh air. ee : Just let me -. In this circumstance. We’re going to try to reign it in specifically to -. EFTA00114080

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 ME: everything was going fine -- 115 4 and ona 5 6 was - Reyes - you know sometime nd 2:00. So I’m assuming the way w ould have worked is the CO should have 10 notified a lieutenant. The lieutenant maybe notified the ops lieutenant. The uld ye notified the oO oo 2( looking at the 22 done. 24 ee : I can’t tell you what EFTA00114081

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U ee : Because - but would that not standing. -- | | for instance. He was on the was gone a cellmate. What 116 EFTA00114082

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LIMITED 1 Oo w oO oo 95 OFFICIAL 117 told them put iy else in the cell with him. think he would would h with him and called | and dude don’t h wants to have a hand in picking and choosing D @ i) OQ i t it o) t+ a al Ph of his high-profile s still done that temporarily? Or should have writt EFTA00114083

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo 95 Ee : You would ha something that I would have done. Ee : What, temporarily? ee : I’m not saying that the board that every ratio lieutenant that was here that day and was that I’m not Ss no o to EFTA00114084

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 119 ee : What the difference between -- Ee : -- 10 South -? Ee: )« «important it is. ae : So what’s the difference 0 South and the SHU is that SHU is for general on 1) rt = i) i) 3 b betw population inmates. ee : You know. You’re not have a cellie there. You know. ve a cellie and not. high-profile inmate. All high- profile inmates they usually assign to 10 South. Epstein had just -. Even before he is] committed suicide. Everybody knew and that’s not just here. That’s people in the region. up to Donald Trump knew d when you look at Donald Trump all the way down the line, you know, to the regional director, the correctional services administrator. All those people should have been involved in where EFTA00114085

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U you know because the 5 Oh 6 in Oo 19 Ee : In 10 South, do inmates EFTA00114086

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been put up there from day one. Most especially after he attempted suicide. So if you didn’t place him up there from day one. When he attempted suicide with a cellmate. Okay? Let’s not forget that because when he attempted suicide, he had a cellmate. Ee : Yeah but isn’t the reason why he didn’t - wasn’t successful partly because of the cellmate? My understanding was because once you’re - once you commit suicide, you want another person to try to prevent it from actually a suicide being successful. So if they want someone in there to basically watch him, wouldn’t they want him in the SHU versus 10 South? that -. ee : You’re not guaranteed but I think that the purpose of him being required a cellmate was that they want someone in there. And that’s why they wanted him vetted. Because the purpose was so that someone could be watching him partly. If he’s trying to hang himself, there’s obviously going to be another cellmate in there saying what are you going? 121 EFTA00114087

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 ioe) o } tH) o O ct ot oO m supervising another inmate. So by 7 you saying - because I don't even agree with 8 inmate companions io 11 inmate companions who would antagonize the 12 person on watch just so they hang their damn ioe) 16 here and put somebody who you know is as high- 17 profile and as important as everybody made 18 Epstein out to be at that time, y a 19 s ho ra 23 24 95 Zo EFTA00114088

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 personal opinion. That’s my professional Oo opinion. I’ve work w 3 enough to t 15 said important to you -- holo oO - and you wanted to oo EFTA00114089

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 monitors right by o 4 x) i) 2 a QQ h circumstance, who 15 I mean a lot of 17 Ee : Who should have informed 18 you could any EFTA00114090

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 requiremen ct w o QO vM] Cc if) it) fu fu ; 3 P- ct wn i) i) 3 in bh b a o everybody else knew. You didn’t. So I’m just figure out where that communication oO | I io t ioe) ct + @ said you didn’t oO oo wo 21 lot t this insti fu “shoulda-woulda-coulda,” ing to say 23 then we should have had adequate staffing. EFTA00114091

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 staff here that were dead on their feet. 3 ee : You know. Trying to 4 watch an inmate. And when all those 5 circumstances that was going on, there was a 6 lot of things that we should have been doing 7 that wasn’t done. So it’s not just about what 8 happened to Epstein. It’s about everything 9 else surrounding his death that occurred that 10 didn’t happen. 11 Ee : That’s one point. 2 ee : That should have been occurring that didn’t happen. 4 a : Okay. Now let’s - I’m going ive) 15 to take it out. Let’s say you’re on shift. 16 Inmate attempted to commit suicide. You know 7 there’s an issue with the inmate. You’re 8 leaving the shift Do you have a conversation 9 with the person you’re relieving - I mean 20 whoever’s relieving you? Do you have a 21 conversation with that person and advise them 22 what happened during your shift? 23 Yes. I would -. 24 Why would you do it? 25 Just to, what reason -. EFTA00114092

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 explain something to you. ae : No-no-no. I just need an explanation. ee : No-no-no. I’m going to give you an explanation. But I’m going to give you the explanation that best suits the question that you’re -- ee : -- asking me. When we do these pass downs, everybody is different. Some people tell you verbatim everything that happened. Some people don't. That’s just the nature of the beast. You know. I could sit here all day and say somebody should have told me something. Or you know if they had the information. But when you’ve got so many things on your mind and you’ve dealt with so many things during the course of the day, you know, people don't want to continue to stand there and do it. People forget. I mean they could have been standing there talking to me for five minutes with all the things that go on during the course of the day. You know. That’s not just here. That’s every place I’ve EFTA00114093

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LIMITED ies) w Oo co wo ive) OFFICIAL USE 128 been when it comes to pass down. Some people will tell you a bunch of stuff depending on when it happened during the course of the day and whatever else came behind it or came before it. People they -- a : No, I understand that. No- no. I just -. remember. say as Agent | already mentioned. If or) ct I get that. But let’s ju n there was instructions form the captain down Let’s say Lieutenant ma was aware of the instructions, and was clear and the lieutenant. instructions that Epstein had to have a cellmate. And he knew that the cellmate was removed. What was -. perfect world. What was his role? When he left the shift. What should he have done? a have.” What should he have done? a: already had -. No-no-no. It’s not “would They would have If you’re telling me that this inmate left at what time? EFTA00114094

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 HE: Wel) be left the cell at 2 8:30 and by 1:30 he was gone from the ies) institution. hould have at 10:00 at night, he st So by the time Ww Ht Q Oo rt y oO K oO 6 already had. That should h already been co 9 we’re asking. Who should 12 have known that he didn’t uld have he, what should h ve a cellie. ioe) 14 person, o 15 done? work for the BOP anymore. 16 So we’re just asking what should have happened? if he was still -- co 20 22 that he was supposed to have had a cellie. And EFTA00114095

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 on that, they should have questioned to see 2 what was the circumstances surrounding that. 3 When they determine rat the circumstances were 4 based upon the fact that if he was coming back 5 or whether or not he wasn’t coming back, then Oo they should have made arrangements for him to 7 get another cellie. 8 a : Okay. I’m done. Can I see 9 the roster one more time? 10 Ee : Yeah. And then let’s 11 stay specific to your instance, so we don’t 2 k you like what should have they 3 done? So as far as yours. If you - and again 4 you weren’t. But if you were aware that he was 15 required to have a cellmate. 16 action that you should have or could have taken 7 between the hours that you were working? 9 ee : Could cell mates have 20 been reassigned at that time of night? 21 ME: 8'0r ing watch is not 22 the time to be moving inmates around becau it 23 presents too much of a safety issue. ee : And being that, we EFTA00114096

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 ve adequate staffing, then -. Morning - You’re not even supposed to be ioe) oO io 3 o figure out what’s 20 ut a he’s How am that’s not KK ct oS 7] rt is) c eh Noel and Thomas - that he was EFTA00114097

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LIMITED Oo wo Ww oO oo OFFICIAL USE 132 they knew that he was suppo to have a cellie and he didn’t, Ee : In this instance they didn’t -, it sounds like y. And did they - communications EFTA00114098

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 1 Ww 6 ct y D Q i] be bh =] fu + 0) i) more like this. And I don’t mean to rush but we 2r no answ knew, ike what EFTA00114099

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 captain and he should have made sure a cellmate 2 was put in there. If PY knew, same thing. 3 He should have notified the captain, he should 4 have put someone there. If you knew, you 5 should have notified the caption, you should 6 have put someone there. That’s just the kind 7 of what the ops lieutenant does. Would it be 8 basically the ops lieutenant if it came up to 9 that person? They notify the captain. They 10 make sure it’s done. Is that a fair assessment? 3 assessment And you’re just notifying - and 4 the only reason why we’re letting the captain 15 know is to let him know. Hey, you know you 16 guys, we keep telling you this guy should be on 7 10 South, but you keep him on SHU. And we keep 8 really, 9 20 -. 21 one reason staff ever -? No ion) H a) ct x 0) o) EFTA00114100

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) discussions about him needing to be 10 South with anyone prior to -? ee : Everybody was telling them that he needed to be on 10 South. Everybody knew that. ae : Alright. So prior to him even dying, you know, prior to August 10th. It was the captain and above were notified, hey we need to get him on 10 South? something. If we as lieutenants are responsible for knowing everything that we’re supposed to know. And we’re running this Ph institution off the cuff, we don't know what’s going to happen here at any given time of the day or night. If we’re required to know that, you think that these cats in the region and in the central office and at the executive staff level don't know the same thing that or more than we know? ee : So I guess the question is have you ever had any conversation - did you ever have any conversations with the caption yourself at that time? EFTA00114101

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 136 that Epstein should be on 10 But during happening, I co Epstein be on 10 South. tion is Q rt a fw rt you sayin what I EFTA00114102

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U acknowledge at leas provided to him? group of o sion or more that don't know what the was ee : I just mean prior to him dying you told him this? Prior to him EFTA00114103

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 Wo o 1 dying. And after he died. I mean. 2 ee : Okay. Sorry, I’1l hand it back over to you. I apologize for ies) ae wi Oo ie) you have anything els o on 6 that topic? Because I’m going to jump through co No. The main things, wo the email. Qo = n 5 ct H © ie] m B 0 fof 4 7 @ cellmate requirements 2 responsible for te bt bh r 45 ite] y @ K rt y wu rt ) fu rt w ie] ae bh O =] ive) should have been taken. What did she know -? 4 a : That’s (Indiscernible f fo] n Cc K o 7 going to jump to 8 a 9 And you mentioned how 20 cameras are so important in 10 South. So now 21 we’re going to talk about the cameras that were 22 actually in the SHU. 24 a : So basic question. 25 access to see what was happening on the EFTA00114104

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LIMITED ioe) oO 9 3 23 OFFICIAL USE 139 enant did y ie) king about? us who Ee : You want to know about it] y 5 fe) rs rt T z The control cameras. We h oO hh Ph HA 0 o Do normally job at all? EFTA00114105

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LIMITED w fo 4 ~~ mn nt u 3 23 OFFI CIAL USE 140 that. But we’re not sitting there. We don't we wouldn’t be W the whole time during the cameras to not what I mean. time - around I just want to know. At that time period, did de the MCC that were not workin Ee : Did you know the cameras EFTA00114106

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 aware. 4 Ee : So even though you were the lieutenant at that night did you not know - ies) w oO 8 I would know that I would be aware of if 9 would be the cameras 10 that I have access to which I can look on the 11 TV monitor and see that they’re actively not Or one of the other staff ie) 0 K B =] Q fu rt rt a i) ct b 3 tt) to cameras would call WwW 3 o 3 o @ a] wn = a o a fu a ra a Q 0] its] ie) f Cc 4 and tell me or say something to me about that 5 camera not working. i August 10th during your shift or I guess late oO a Les] ib oc o c ifs) rt 9th, early August 10th, that any cameras 9 in the SHU were not working? No Nm MEN: «8s far as you remember, of the cameras working in No Ww 0 a] i) ct S 0) bh 0 ue] ie) K rt bh: ie) o No ct 5 i) K @ = a @ oO =] oO n that you were able to monitor No w a s K @ w b i} + bh 3 oO EFTA00114107

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LIMITED to fx om the 1 3 the time was working. Oo monitor. F o H rt p i 5 wr B ct shows like common area. oo 24 ee : But are there cameras on EFTA00114108

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U Oo) up -- on our camere my] oO Kt w wn b 13 No 15 And t - 16 in the lieutenant’s 17 ld control center? 18 Would they that would EFTA00114109

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo 95 And I’m person who would be watchi Who South watches the would telling who is required to watch them would be the it. But who -- 10 South. is watching one is watching s far as I know. Q EFTA00114110

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LIMITED ho KK i) ie) wo Ww wo Wa wi OFFICIAL USE 145 to it I gue is what we Who - if someone wanted to look at the range within housing it, who would h 3) y- But your point i n, who s watching that. So if it’s and how? people who are responsible for the cameras wo onsible communication guys. o you know who -? And th know if t EFTA00114111

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO co io ioe) oO co © nN ion) wi OFFICIAL USE people in the that their cameras were down? would know that. I have no way of knowing that. reported it. So that’s the question would be like, if the range camera in the who would know? Who would they noti was responsible? Do you follow? So how would know that the range camera was down? es : You don't know? access to it and they know - they can see it on a monitor or something like that and see that it’s not working. I don't know outside of that you know -? oO n ct a oO wn c a mt 0 EFTA00114112

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 communications would be the ones that would Oo w ot) don't work in oO don't know if t co 19 e) cnow, another one would know, or if 2¢ same time. I don't conduct their business. EFTA00114113

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LIMITED No No No No ies) w oO fos) ive) oO oo wo ion) wi OFFICIAL USE 148 down there. Yes. ee : Would he be potentially the one responsible for fixing it? he would be responsible for fixing it. But if ing to say he was notified of it, he would have done it. 7 p U We Oo o he rh t i fw rt fs) 5 wu t © O ue] ha © B =] ct yp p nn institution wanted. this clear to know what the Oo communications instructions were regarding -. Ee : And we’re not asking you those questions. I’m sorry. We’re not asking re not looking at you to solve all the problems. We just need to know like as far as like if a camera goes down, who fixes it? access to a camera and that camera went would call the communications department to have them take a look at that camera and t oO it, to fix it or w EFTA00114114

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 needed to be done. 2 ee : And roughly how quickly - 3 ee : And that depends on 4 who answered the phone. That would be whoever 5 was working down there at the time, depending 6 on which one answered the phone. That’s who we 7 would relay that information to. We weren’t 8 picky about talking to a specific person. It 9 would be like if they work in that area, then 10 10uld be capable of doing whatever it is 11 that we need to do to restore the cameras. Or 2 whatever manner they need to go about getting 3 it done. 4 ee: How quickly usually does 5 that get resolve If a camera goes down, do 16 they really get it back up and running pretty 8 ee : If they’re here and 9 they can replace it, they replace it on the 20 spot. 21 M:N the spot? 23 ee : Would it be abnormal for 4 it to take -. So if someone reported it ona n ho No w Thursday, would it be abnormal for them to wait EFTA00114115

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 until Monday to fix it? 3 say that bec 4 circumst io 12 right at this very Do ioe) 3. What was 14 his 15 16 s his 17 title. name? 23 u came 24 when you came on the shift. Do you recall hearing about EFTA00114116

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 151 Eps n making a phone call? -? I’m just going to -. Is S say an inmate had call. And the with or EFTA00114117

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 59 nteraction. When he committed the suic d with I interac EFTA00114118

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 think that’s what we’re showing you before was 2 the SHU layout. I think it was 15 feet - the 3 closest cell to where the people are sitting 4 . cannot -. I don't care where wi 6 yu are inside a housing unit. You cannot see 7 from any - unless you’re standing there in that 8 window, you can’t see inside mebody’s -. the window oO 10 the whole time? 1 ee : I mean you may be 2 able to see if their light is on or something 3 like that. Whatever that window - whatever 4 you may be 5 corner of something or 16 7 Is the window open the 8 u have to open it and 9 22 Ee : And about how big is that 23 window? EFTA00114119

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LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 15¢ the window to window. never p So is ita large thi It’s a little It’s not a big, EFTA00114120

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) © OFFICIAL USE huge window where -. So would it be like No. It wouldn’t ? Roughly 16X12 at the window. in th allowe plac than SHU And it is that. inmates. What are they eir cell? What kind of d to the ed in SHU. depends on what inmates have You have EFTA00114121

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w oO 2 Administrative Detention. You have inmates 3 that they’re on disciplinary segregation. You 4 have inmates up there that are up there for 5 protective custody. You have inmates up there 6 for various reasons. So there is different 7 items that each, depending on their status, 8 they are allowed to have. 9 a : So there’s no set SHU policy 10 on what inmate is allowed to have and not have 11 in the cell? 2 ee : I don't know what 3 their polices - what their policy is. If they 4 have a set policy here, in general, I’ve never 15 seen a set policy for this institution in 16 particular about what the inmates can have or 7 what they couldn’t have if they’re in SHU. 8 a : Okay so no -. 9 ee : But I’m sure there 20 has to be something. 21 a : So what kind of holding was 22 Epstein under? What would he fall under? 23 ee : I don't know what. 24 To be honest with you, I don't know what, 25 because he wasn’t up there for disciplinary EFTA00114122

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 w ~] ive) J action. He wasn’t up there pending disciplinary action. So I’m going to - and I don't want to say he was up there for protective custody. Because like I said previously, and I'll continue to say that, for someone in his position, he never should have been up on SHU. a : Now someone in the SHU. Are they allowed to have the same types of items as a normal person in a regular cell? Or they have only a limited amount of items? EE: «on, Epstein, to be honest with you, there’s no telling what they didn’t allow Epstein to have in his cell. ae : Why do you say it like that? ee : I say it like that because I know that he was always trying to get things that he wasn’t supposed to have. And to be honest with you, I don't know if they approved them or not. a : What was he trying to get? ee : He was - when he was in attorney conference he was trying to get his meals delivered - his hot trays and stuff like that. Regular inmate trays delivered to EFTA00114123

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 attorney conference. Things of that nature. 2 So -. ies) a : Did he get special 4 privileges? 6 did or not because I worked nights. So I w 7 didn’t’ have a ions with Epstein co wo i=) 1 pill bottles in his cell? was or not. 4 a : Are inmates allowed to have ive) that oO How many changes of co 9 clothing or linens are inmates allowed to have 22 there on SHU. My previous 23 in SHU, they don't have any 24 When they get 25 their shower, their rec and shower, they’re EFTA00114124

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) 8 wo No Nm 23 OFFICIAL USE 1 w ite) given a new set of clothing at that time. But don't maintain any additional clothing in the special housing unit outside of that. I don't know what they do here. But that’s how it was alwe done at my previous institution. a : So inmates shouldn’t or three different pairs of -? know what their policy is or was time because things change here. Because oO things around here change on a moment-to-moment Epstein interaction with other inmates? Did he have any i un if) Cc Oo ifs with any inmates? interaction was with other inmates. a : When was the last time you interacted with Epstein? H ws t told you. WN: Okay. Do you know why in was in prison? allegation that - engaging in EFTA00114125

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LIMITED Oo w oO oo OFFIC sexual acts with underage females. feelings regarding why he tu speak about a : And when did you hear about fu rh ct 1) H EFTA00114126

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 was here working. I had went downstairs to 2 finish some work that I had that I didn’t get 3 to finish during my shift. And at some point 4 in time, that’s when I heard that um that they 5 had had a medical emergency up in SHU. 6 a : But were you here on the 7 premises? 8 ee : Yes. I was still 9 here. 10 a : Did you respond up there at 11 all? 2 ee : I called up there to 3 make sure everybody was okay. And they - when 4 I asked who was up there they was telling me 15 that they didn’t have but one or two staff 16 members up there. s I went up there to 7 see if they needed some help because I knew 8 feeding and all that stuff still needed to be 9 done. 20 HN: Sos when you went up to the 21 SHU after the incident, was Epstein still in 22 the SHU or was he removed already? 24 ae : He wasn’t there. Did you get 25 to see the inside of the cell? EFTA00114127

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w co ioe) co © ion) OFFICIAL USE Did you 162 No. Nope. communications with Po or Tova Noel after this incident? was okay. And I wen after that, when Aft communications watch and suicide SHU, so suicide watch to the J n n rt bh RR = el was t to help them feed I came back up out tier, she was er that day, with igned to the SHU. Are they they assigned assigned to the SHU, are tl EFTA00114128

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LIMITED Oo Oo No Ly 25 a : You mentioned eve EFTA00114129

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co its) No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 164 working overtime during that time. Right? hing. point in time. I don’t’ know if it was around that time, but yeah. If a lieutenant t We was required to stay and work that shift. a : Would that be -? So that would be the day wa ither or. Well dependin 1) working. involved with responding to the July 23rd incident where Eps commit suicide? understanding that he tried to commit suicide? about his cellmate attempting to kill him? reference that I guess he had mentioned at that time that his cellmate had done that to him. EFTA00114130

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 But when I went back and spoke to him he never 2 mentioned that to me. He never said anything. 3 ee : When you say, you 4 actually questioned Epstein? 6 ae : And what did he say to 7 you? 9 anything. He really didn’t say anything about 10 the incident. He said that he had gotten up to 11 get some water and the next thing he knew -. I 2 think that was what he said. He had gotten up. 3 would have to look at my memo. I think he 4 said he had gotten up to get some water or 15 something like that. And the next thing he 16 knew we were there. 7 Ee : Okay. And what number 8 were you in responding? 9 ee : I don't know what - 20 if I was first if we went because usually when 21 we respond to an emergency, we -. Even if I 22 get on the elevator first, the elevator may 23 stop and pick up somebody else along the way. 24 But I think it was me and I don't know. I 25 don’t’ remember. EFTA00114131

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 4 what to t cell? wi was lying on the o al = 2) Oo a] x= D But appeared to be unresponsi 7 ed up to him, we would see 8 9 t have t ioe) o he was trying rt re) 17 we were doing. And then he would close his would never resp to us. He bh wy w oO maintain that m 20 or something like that. I 21 I don’t’ know what was g through his mind. you know if someone iN w wn ny] 5 0 Cc 3 e) 7 I rt I don’t know if N iN EFTA00114132

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 167 Okay. Point being, like if he’s claiming someone tried to kill him, but also at the same time is saying that he’s trying to commit suicide. anything around his neck. for you to believe that actually trying to kill proof that his cellmate him. And I’m trying to officer said. I don’t’ what the officers were telling me. He didn’t’ have Is there any reason his cellmate was No. I mean I had no tried to do anything to remember what the even remember offhand I don't know if they saw him with something around his neck or what they observed. But I can’t remember. I would have to refer back to my notes. Because that was a long time ago. MS): Sere. So if counts are not conducted. And I’m more important than rounds? Or assuming -. Are counts re they both just as equally as important? They are both independently important. important. with counts. If counts I mean they’re both So let’s go first are not conducted, who EFTA00114133

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is -. So if counts are signed off on. You’re given a count slip. If those counts actually weren’t conducted. So if let’s say for instance that during your shift, the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. If they were not conducted - those counts- who is responsible for that? For them being signed and certified? Who - so I’m assuming the people? Noel and Thomas are the ones assigned to that shift. And they are the ones who certify that those counts were conducted and then provided to you. Are they the only ones that are responsible for providing false information? ee : Providing false information? Ee : Correct. So if they’re saying they conducted counts but they didn’t. So they were providing you with something saying either 72 or 73, but those counts were not conducted. ee : How would I know if they weren’t conducted? ee : Right. That’s what I’m asking. So are they the only ones that are EFTA00114134

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO co io ioe) oO co © ion) wi OFFICIAL USE responsible for falsifying that? ee : Who else would know did them or no I mean -- That’s what I’m you. And that’s what I’m re the ones that are -. There is no reason whatsoever for us to ever believe that someone is not conducting their counts or doing what they’re supposed to be doing. You know. We’re not out e with them. I mean we have no way of knowing what -. 7) f Hh a] im as I know, no one has any way of knowing what I’m doing w EFTA00114135

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 w ~] to have confidence in and you have to know your staff. That’s what it comes down to. You have to walking and talking. It’s not just about the inmates. It’s not just about you know what we did with Epstein. It’s about every inmate that was being housed at MCC at the time. Every inmate had the potential to hang themselves or kill themselves or do whatever. It wasn’t just about Epstein. We’re responsible for every inmate in this institution. : sere. ee : And I have - if I have absolutely no reason to believe that a staff member in this building, or doubt, unless they reveal something to me that would make me doubt what they said is true. have no reason to believe that a staff member isn’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing. Ee : So if you were told that the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. counts were not conducted on August 10th, does that surprise you? EFTA00114136

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U that would Oo 12 do it that night to be honest with 13 that they 15 heard that they 16 staff members 17 counts 18 heard tf y- And you 23 ting counts or rour 25 I don't know of them EFTA00114137

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 or any other staff members not conducting like that. And you didn’t -? oO te) What about with the ed to you be su didn’t’ do rounds shift? t ioe) K (D 3) H 14 sed to find out -- 15 16 18 wo You would be wait what? I would be 22 they didn’t do 23 any 24 25 g cifically with regards to falsification of EFTA00114138

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 rounds and counts? Who has to sign off on the counts and round a : What do you mean? ies) w that oO fos) wo 11 Ee : That they provided you 12 that information. t ioe) That they 14 turned in know how many -? Supervisors would have to 23 would me a Supervisor would tf to be on during every EFTA00114139

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) 20 No Wa OFFICIAL USE 174 count. to the SHU. So in the sp tion proce about whether or not is doing it. It’s ee : -- prior to this incident implemented sin ensure that counts and rounds are being EFTA00114140

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oO io ioe) 15 hierarchy? Was Was one subordinate or oO oo wo 23 working together. like person that’s in cha of the other? EFTA00114141

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LIMITED Oo Oo OFFICIAL U with counts and rou tak I mean we all have What do you mean? It’s wrong The count is off. The number EFTA00114142

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 ee : You mean the count 2 slip? The count slip comes to control -? 3 a : Yes. 4 ee : And the count slip is 5 wrong? 7 ee : Then if control is 8 aware of that, and especially if control is 9 taking the count. Then control will call them 10 back and tell them I need a new count slip 11 because this one is not right. And usually the 2 only time that that would happen is would be 3 like in the incidents where we may have moved a 4 staff member during that time. And we need to 15 go back and update that count slip that we were 16 originally getting. Or like in this case with 7 the inmate being in R&D. We needed to go back 8 and get another count slip that reflected the 9 new count which was 72. Once we put the inmate 20 in R&D. 21 a : Okay. On that same topic, if 22 the count was wrong, and you told them that 23 they needed to go back and do another count. 24 ee : Not that the count 25 was wrong. That the count slip was wrong. The EFTA00114143

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 number that was reflected on the count slip was 2 wrong. 3 a : Did you see them do the 4 count? 6 a : So the number they reported 7 was wrong. The count should have been -. 8 ee : They said that they 9 had -. They said that they had their count was 10 73 but that they had there was an inmate that 11 was in R&D. So that was the problem. They 2 never did a count slip saying - they never said 3 my count is 73 and left it at that. They were 4 clear to say that the count is - SHU has 73 but 15 there is an inmate that is down on the third 16 floor in R&D. Or something to that effect. 7 They notified me that there was an inmate that 8 was off their housing unit. 9 a : So you’re saying the count 20 wasn’t wrong. 21 22 slip was wrong. 23 ee : The count slip was wrong 24 but s explained it when they 25 delivered it. EFTA00114144

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE But you 2 bit before that the count ies) count slip was wrong. w wrong. oO Why did ~] back and do the count? oo tated a ust 7) wasn’t wrong, the The count slip was 3 Gc wu OT wr rt hem to go Because I needed to 9 find out what was going on with this dude in 10 R&D so that, you know, if they in fact -. If 11 we made changes to whatever the status was to 2 this guy in R&D. If he was in fact going to be 3 there overnight or whatever the case may be, 4 then we needed to get him off of their count. 15 So while I was verifying that, I said, you know 16 what, just go back and do it again just to make 7 sure. While I’m looking into this thing with 8 this dude. I didn’t say that to them. I’m 9 thinking to myself. I’11l have them go back and 20 do another count while I check on this inmate 21 that was - 22 a : There’s a possibility the 23 count was wrong then. No No wn What do you mean? You said go back and verify EFTA00114145

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 if the guy was still there or not there. 3 and verify if the guy was still there. I said 4 while I verify what’s going on with this guy in 5 R&D still in R&D. That’s what 6 I’m talking about. I wanted to verify if he 7 was still in R&D. And if he was, if he was 8 going to be staying there. Because I wasn’t 9 aware that there was an inmate in R&D. So from 10 my own, and I wasn’t verbalizing this. I was 11 saying this to myself. 2 ee : But the point being is 3 you got a count that was a 73 and you said do 4 it again. Correct? 15 ee : The count slip that 16 was 73 was broke down because they had put the 7 count slip out. 8 ee : Right And you -- 20 Hs: 2-0 asked them to do the 21 count again though. Because you got a count 22 slip - and this is where I just want to make 23 sure that we’re all on the same page here. So 24 you did though, take action. You got a count 25 slip that seemed to be inaccurate and EFTA00114146

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 do the count 2 again. 3 ee : I hadn’t even gotten 5 6 said, when 7 they said the count 8 or wherever they was 9 but there is an inmate 10 1 how they called 2 the u in? There’s 73, but there’s one 3 inmate in R&D. And you said, can 4 count again? 16 the count. They was 7 8 informing me 9 weren’t e sure ould do or how 20 should go about it. 23 wanted it to be known that there was an inmate 24 off their housing unit that was somewhere else. Sically on the housing unit. And EFTA00114147

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 that was the whole question as to how do they 2 want us to do - how are we supposed to count 3 this guy? What’s the deal with that? So I’m 4 saying, you know, let me - I need to figure 5 this out. Because I wasn’t - I didn’t even 6 know that there was a guy in R&D at the time. ~] So I need to verify that there is a guy in R&D 8 and what’s the status of this dude in R&D, why 9 he’s there. All these questions I have to ask 10 before I can even tell them anything about it. 11 Ee : So at what point would 2 have they filled out the count slip? After you 3 did the verification? Would have they then 4 created the count slip? 15 Ee: «They would hav 16 created a new count slip. 8 ee : And that count slip 9 apparently was never picked up because -- 20 HE: «Never picked up or not 21 recorded. 22 ee : -- because the one 23 that you all was able to get a copy of was the 24 73 and not the one that reflected the in count 25 which would have been 72. EFTA00114148

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LIMITED ies) w oO co ive) co wo OFFICIAL USE 183 there was a count slip that was created? : If I had saw it, it would tf n during t time that I would have taken the and I would have attached count slips and went on ee : The point being is t you don't know. You don't know if there was a count slip. H Fh I Let me tell you something. Based upon the fact that I’ve worked with these g un for a certain period of time and I know what they’re capable of doing. EFTA00114149

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 w ~] ive) I can for the most part tell you what somebody would do and what they wouldn’t do. I have never had a problem with a staff member not correcting their count slip or not sending me another - a corrected count slip. ae : Now we’re only asking you because I have personally not seen it. So I’m asking you if there’s another one, do we need to go try to find this. Or do you not know. find it. I mean it’s two years later. to find it at? If it wasn’t picked up - I mean the fact that they could have put it out there and no one picked it up. ee: Here’s a question. If they did do one, right, it’s expec rt 0) jon rt =) wu rt rt Sy 0) ke should have for that one. Right. A new one. Yes or no? Because of the error, it was expected that they would have filled out a new one with the correct number. ee : I’m sure that they filled that they filled out another one and probably put it out in and it was an oversight EFTA00114150

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 Ww K fe) Cc o (e) 5 rt ram og C = k rh | or no. Did you see it I didn’t’ see wi O 6 it 8 io t Ww } it) t ct fw jen Pp Fh Hh o K i) 5 rt 'S be wu a (D Bb ct it) 14 nding. I mean 15 in the same place. TI it in a different place. I it. We just to 20 ee : I can’t tell you something 21 that I didn’t see. If I didn’t see it, I t ie) 5 rt put it or EFTA00114151

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fen) LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 happened to it. ies) getting at. 4 sure. we w said you have no reason to believ 6 didn’t. That indicates that they did. And we 7 just want to make sure that you’re correct. 8 You’ve never seen it. You’re actually not sure >y did or not. 1 WENN: «ts that correct th count slip. gh? ive) co wo 22 23 can make something right that’s wrong or need 24 correcting, then that’s what I’m here for I’m 25 not here to like I said, and I’1ll say EFTA00114152

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE bR co ~J] 1 thousand times. I’m not here to cover for 2 nobody. I’m not here to provide false answers 3 for something that somebody had done, but at me time, you all are throwing these 5 questions at me about what somebody would have 6 done. I don't know what’s in somebody’s mind - 4 9 not asking -- 10 | 2 -- Swith the stuff -- 11 Ee : -- those questions. 2 We're asking you -- 3 aken 4 15 you see 16 it. So that’s what we’re trying to get you to 7 answer more like yes, no, hey I don't know on 8 that front. So we’re trying to keep it 9 consolidated and ask you direct questions. 20 What did you know? Did you know if they did 21 another count slip? 22 ee : Well what I also know 23 is there’s no reason for them to not have done 24 it. I’ve never had a reason or a circumstance where somebody didn’t do a corrected count EFTA00114153

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LIMITED No No No No ies) w oO co ive) oO co wo ion) wi OFFICIAL USE 188 slip. I mean it’s - there’s really nothing to ee : And this is only because of the way you’re answering tt you ensured that they did a new count slip? : I had no reason to. nsibility to ensure that they created resp fu fw Oo unt slip? responsibility to tell them. Well they knew to cre fu te it. If the count was different, they knew to create a new count slip. I’m not required to wait around for that count slip to manifest itself in SHU when I have a thousand other duties to do. to do a new count but it’s not your requirement to follow up to obtain a new count slip. generally happens would go pick that EFTA00114154

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 189 down to the control center. attach it to that count. been Noel or Thomas’ re sibility to conta internal to tell them to come get it? Or your re nsibility to SHU would tell them. It circumstan know who would ee : I mean we all could us could hav EFTA00114155

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo No Wa OFFICIAL USE 190 done it. If control - if I see that control -. way. something. If internal here and I see them there. And I’1l you go grab would be an in this internal and tell homas and Noel contacted internal to come They may have. And I ‘re not aware? And control may have EFTA00114156

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LIMITED 1 oO oO OFFICIAL 191 that out? warden? The captain? The AW? it. sno had a requirement. Who should hz EFTA00114157

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LIMITED ies) w oO co io 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 192 yn suicide watch. He’s required ) C mail. I mean a cellmate. 0) I’ve never seen that done here. But we didn’t to remember a time when il 7] an eme ue) Kh b. is) KR ct o t Epstein that I had p inmate ing an inmate in the ther inmate. To be honest with Now speaking to we showed you the email that you said you emails that have gone unread? EFTA00114158

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 time to read at that time because of everything 2 that was going on during our shift and in this 3 building. 4 Ee : And is that just a 5 constant issue of just trying to keep up with 6 emails as well as do your job? 7 ee : That was a constant 8 issue. Yes. Because there was so much going 9 on in this building at the time. much 10 chaos. That you didn’t have time to read. 2 EE: 9 ou didn’t have time 3 to read a lot of the emails that you’d gotten. 4 But most importantly, if you’ re talking 5 about information that’s that important, you 16 know. Whoever is sending out the information. 7 Whoever got the information should always be 8 trying to make sure that everybody knows that 9 this is important. We have to make sure that 20 he has a cellie because like I said, the 21 officers are the main ones who come in contact. No N a 5 Q rt om fu rt goes back to our No ion) ) Ee : If the chain of command EFTA00114159

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ioe) oo © ion) OFFICIAL USE 194 went up to || during that time and that he was required to have a cellmate and didn’t, what should hav llmate was removed, he uld have - said was, I believe, he should put in place. have done. SHU lieutenant at one point. So he probably oO er inmate to the cell. supervisor. situation bec Ee : And if the inmate that EFTA00114160

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LIMITED 1 Oo Oo OFFICIAL 195 the end o Ph done at his shift, sho ave he then pa 1 information on to the 2rations lieutenant to be able to handle the situation? That’s if he knew about he probably would have handled it -- I don't know what he he would have Do you think a shift, EFTA00114161

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LIMITED is) ho ho No i) No ioe) oO io ioe) | | ral fe) a] 0) o) QO o 5 fu H t fe) wo Wa wi OFFICIAL USE 19 he should have done. What he should have done and what he could have done and what he would have done is on nal manual no instructio that we’re ct 5 i rt ct D b b H i if oO o KK ia b- ine ct b o ct a P- Q +t @ o K : ow’ 1) nev exact scenario for everything that happens. K to use your common sense and good said about your hou ini un wu K o ine P- Hh } a + O = > fu spec the duty agent roster says. said you would Oo if) ct oO K work -. 8:00 a.m., you were actually 10: P| have p.m. to 6:00 fw a.m. What would a EFTA00114162

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 9th. Looking at the duty roster. What times 2 would he have actually - have worked according ies) ct 0 that? worked -. he would have came in around wo > p 0 6 6:00 and worked until 2:00. he would wo i=) 11 have That’s correct. nN ive) Okay. If he didn’t -. 4 If | didn’t tell f that, would } 5 it then been the nsibility for 16 the COs to again report it up the chain of 7 command? Or because they reported it 8 previously, would that have covered them with 9 hey we got it up to the ops lieutenant. That 20 person’s suppos 21 follow what I’m saying? So for people working 22 in the SHU. They had already reported it up. 23 It got to a. At that point, is everybody 24 in the SHU covered? They reported it. Or 7 25 should each subsequent shift EFTA00114163

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reported, hey he’s supposed to have an inmate - he’s supposed to have a cellmate in here. He doesn’t. ee : That’s if they knew. There is no reason for me to believe that those guys that was there on SHU that if they knew that, whether or not before they left, I’m sure they would have questioned that again as to what you want me to do about this particular situation. ee: Okay. So should have each -. So then let’s say if Thomas and Noel did know. And they knew he was without a cellmate. Should have they then told you? When you did your rounds? Like when they’re calling control. And you’re stopping by at 4:00 a.m. Would have it been their responsibility to say hey, just so you know, he’s required to have a cellmate and he doesn’t. ee : I’m not going to say that that’s what they should have done because there’s no rules and regulations regarding that. But they - I would have - if it was me, I would have mentioned it. EFTA00114164

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 know, somebody told them just make sure, he’s So even if a cellmate in SHU at that 4 point, they’re not actually required to notify o If what? If s that io ioe) oO oo wo EFTA00114165

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 200 ee : Okay. Fair enough. hat’s it. You done? a : (Indiscernible *02:48:29) HS: os you know of any - ow of any policy violations wha | sti‘és or August 9th and 10th oO RK wu K oO 9u talking about -- es : No-no-no. Just in general. a : In general. Ing you know of any policy any kind : What I do know is ere who abuse their thing and correctional responsibilities of other departments when it’s ? c learly not their responsibility. You have a lot of people that come here that really are not \ sed on what it is they’re supposed to be doing - their responsibilities. So they pawn EFTA00114166

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that off on other people. But there’s a -. There’s no clear and defined form of policy and procedure here. There’s no consistency that goes on here. Everything is hodge-podge. A lot of times, people are required to make decisions off the cuff or to do -. Because when you come here, if you don't have or while you’re here - or working here. There is no formal guidance that teaches and guides staff to know what they’re supposed to be doing. There’s nothing written in stone regarding what you’re supposed to be doing and what you’re supposed to be doing on a daily basis. There are post orders and stuff like that. But they’re not in depth enough to let staff know this is what you’re supposed to be doing. There are a lot of things that - decisions that people make off the cuff that’s not ever put in writing. And that they would tell whoever’s here at the time. And I guess expect that information to get disseminated throughout the institution. And it’s not. That’s not being done. That’s not being done. So you have a lot of - we have a lot of new staff here. And a lot of them are falling between the cracks EFTA00114167

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because they just aren’t getting information to them in a manner in which they should. ae : On what you just mentioned. So you’re saying that there’s orders or decisions coming down from up above? And it’s not being properly communicated out. ee : This is how. This is how this place has always been. You -. People in-in-in-in um positions will require the people up under them to carry their load rather than them carrying their own load. When if - if I’m a lieutenant, my duties and responsibilities and authority end at a certain level. At that point, the captain and above takes over. A lot of times, you don't see that. They expect you to do your job and their job as well. We can’t -. There are certain decisions that we can’t make. If it was up to me, Epstein would have been up on 10 South. So those are the type of decisions where you tell people that these things are wrong. You give them intel about certain things. And here we are. We done found a loaded gun in the institution. That - those type things should never happen. Never happen. EFTA00114168

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 23 OFFICIAL USE 203 =) =) my rt n a] bh bh H J wy oO b somewhere. unts and rounds need to counts and rounds -? EFTA00114169

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LIMITED OFFICIAL Ll io) 4 204 ct hey were 2 aware that there was a cellmate requirement, 3 reported the matter to someone Yea h, but you have wi oO other people that are - were responsible for wu 7 disseminating that information to - ie] Fa fw het everybody to make oO | | °o n is iad it) ct os fu rt everybody had that information. And 1 everybody knew that. ive) 4 ee: -- I guess like yourself, 5 you received an email but you didn’t read it. 16 So that’s where there’s one of those things 7 that yeah, there’s definitely things to work Les] ie) is rt uv c + bet 3 u Cc fn rt ro) saying when you say, like 9 there are things that sound like they were 20 probably done wrong here like counts and rounds 21 aren’t being conducted. People aren’t 22 reporting information up the chain if they’re 23 being told to do so. But as well as everything 24 else, you’re saying as an institution. EFTA00114170

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 into the Bureau, you didn’t even have email. So how was - and you still now is no different than back then. You still have inmates who was with in potential danger. The same situations that existed in the institutions then. It’s the same instances that exist now. So if back then they were able to make sure everybody was on the same page and that information was disseminated and it got to everybody. Why should it be any different here? You can’t rely on an inmate because first of all, in order to know, you don't just send out. That’s the whole purpose of walking and talking. To disseminate information that way. Because you’re never guaranteed that when you send out an email that somebody is going to read it. I have a ton of emails on my computer at home that I don’t read. So nothing is guaranteed. You have to know. When you’re in charge and you’re running something, you-you-you-you need to know that whatever you put out there, that if it’s that important, if it’s that important, why are you sending it through an email anyway. Why aren’t you calling somebody on the phone? Back it up. Call people on the phone. Make EFTA00114171

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) sure everybody knows. ee : I think the purpose is to put it in writing. But yeah, so email but also verify verbally. ee : You need to verify that if you’re sending those emails to s to that n pertinent people who should have acce information that everybody knows about it. | sti‘és Do you all have all staff like where lieutenants are all present where they can verbalize something to you? Is that i] done here? ee : Do we have what? ee: So you’re saying that not only an email but people should verbalize it. But there’s a ton of people that need to know things. So is there a process in place where someone like the captain, say? If the warden tells the captain make sure he has a cellmate, is there a process in place where the captain can get in front of all the lieutenants and that - is there -? tell them this? Or i access to every lieutenant here. The captain’s 7) office is -. EFTA00114172

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LIMITED ies) w fos) Ww oo OFFICIAL USE 207 ee : But how would he go about rbalizing? Would he have to tell each o individual lieutenant? important. were all of us. Not just time. He should have told have made sure that we all knew that. since you didn’t know. have an email but should have verbalized it. should have informed me. I’m the ops lieutenant. I should needed an inmate. Who was EFTA00114173

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 should have told you that verbally? 3 tH 0 K het on fe) om kK ey fe) p o ioe) 13) fu @ bh 5 3 it] tam b =] Te} 07) is RK O w They should have made knew wher io know but you. So who t ioe) 5) t o t Everybody didn’t were involved required to have an t ie) 7 o K oO wu = bh ay ny ct fu ct :) i) = iat A who said that you ion to you is they all Who should have been the one to tell 25 told them. Just because EFTA00114174

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LIMITED OFFICIAL Oo w ot) oO oo doe 0) wn told USE n’t mean that before th them should h yming that warden, the A Who verbally tc So whoever verbally verbally told you? in whether or not you understand what ike psychology, the W. can’t all It should be one should hz EFTA00114175

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LIMITED ies) w fos) Ww oo 20 No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 210 het oO c person that disseminates information. That’s how we all know what ha When you one person -. mean that that one person would have to work know what’s es : And being that the work when you work at nights sounds like from July 30° to especially. I rt the time that this happened. a : At some point in time. -enant? His requirement to time. I’m sure. T me point in e captain seen me between July 30th and every day at some point EFTA00114176

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 211 ain should s a chain. stion is who is that chain Who was onsible for letting ny captain? uld have made sure that we all that information. That we knew. have told b wn cr ion oO Q uy ce] rt My] b 3 4 > wu rt rt) 5 wu T Hi 3 ge in) tting at. EFTA00114177

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 212 and wellbeing. Whoever had a stake in that should have been making sure that everybody knew. Whether it was the warden making sure or € if the warden contacted the captain and told the captain hey make sure all your lieutenants know -. ee : Whether it was the warden telling the AWs, the AWs telling the captains and telling them to tell us. Ee : But the person above you. So let’s say. Take this as like what I’m telling you. ee : It could have been -. It could have been another officer, sir, that knew and didn’t. the warden told the captain, the captain you know telling the lieutenants. Should have it been both your relieving ops lieutenant as well as the captain are the ones that should have EFTA00114178

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LIMITED 1 13 15 Lod 12 OFFICIAL U you this? D ee: |: the email came out on July 30th. Well in th an one? 1s case it , but you said ‘'m savina - I’m saying . could have been oO B T we known that way, way before that day Ee : And so that’s my question EFTA00114179

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 knew. The warden knew. You didn’t know. Who 2 should have told you? Should have your 3 relieving ops lieutenants told you? Or should 4 have your captain told you? 6 that he was left without a cellie. And who came in contact with me should have, you know. 8 ee : Okay. So the highest level basically the highest officer. So if wo 10 | | knew it would have been - and he didn’t 11 tell the captain, it would have been his responsibility to either told the captain and nN ive) ct he ops lieutenant next to him. And that ops 4 lieutenant should have told the captain or you. 5 The point being the information never go to fea) het i) c ee : Sure. No. And that’s co a cellie on that day. 24 somebody supposed to do is clearly left up to 25 that individual and what their knowledge is and EFTA00114180

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LIMITED ioe) io ioe) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 215 o how much they know. How long they’ve been on the job and how well they do their job and so re not all - we all think alike. We don’t share the same brain. how one person handle it is not ne handled it. But -. ard to WN: Sst one left. In re August 9th and 10th. wW H wn rt Py U) K o a] =] Ke ct Pp. =] Q rt a w rt oO forgot that we didn’t ask should ha that we might have ee : Concerning Epstein? a : Concerning Epstein. a : Okay. ee : Not that I can think EFTA00114181

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N a fon 1 of. 3 ee : Alright. It is currently 4 12:39 p.m. on June 14, 2021. This is Senior 6 turning of the recorder. co wo co EFTA00114182

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 CERTIFICATE 217 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: haa oa Marci Bratton, Transcriber EFTA00114183