oo wo co DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-01 )614 oO DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INS CTOR GENERAL JUNE 16, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00113909

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LIMITED co wo co OFFICIAL APPEARANC USE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00113910

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LIMITED Oo w ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 3 MR. Ee : The recorder is on. My I am a Senior Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General New York Field Office. This interview is with Federal Bureau of Prisons c It is being tment of Just eral inve Inspector is June 16, 2021 and the time is yiew is being cond ed by telephone. Mr. || is calling from telephone Special Agent EFTA00113911

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Perfect. MR. a: Is that good? MR. a : Thank you, sir. This DOJ investigation concerns the overall review of this investigation has to do with job performance failure and security failure. That’s what we’re looking into as the DOJ OIG. And this is - as I mentioned - an official DOJ ingestion. You are being asked to provide answers to our questions voluntarily. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with us? MR. a: Yes. MR. a : Thank you, sir. We place people under oath. It’s going to eb a little bit different. But do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during our interview? MR. a: Yes. MR. Ee : Thank you, sir. And if you don't understand any of my questions, please feel free to ask me to rephrase and I’1l do my best to make it clear. As I mentioned, I’m just going to go through a couple of different interview questions in the beginning just to kind of get your background. So you EFTA00113912

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 said you’re down at the Federal law enforcement 2 training center right now, sir? 4 MR. QJ: and 5 home oO io And ioe) said your last 14 four number were -? MR. Ee : Awesome. What’s your 17 highest level of education? MR. aa: Some college. 19 MR. PF : Where did 20 colle oO oo ie) 24 MR. aa: I’m sorry? 25 MR. a : When did you attend EFTA00113913

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 on college in Guam? MR. a: Ooh. That was in 2007 MR. a : Did you receive like an associate degree or anything? MR. a: No just a couple credits here and there. MR. a : Okay. And how long did you work for the Bureau of Prisons? MR. QJ: 9 From 2004 to 2006. Then I left the Bureau and I came back in 2012 until I left recently and was in 2020. MR. a : 2020? Okay so it was over a year ago that you left. Or do you remember the date? MR. a: Uh, I believe my last day was -. On the books with - because I was on leav @ - so on the books, technically with BOP my last day was October 11 of 2020. MR. QJ: Okay. And who do you currently work for? MR. a: Customs and border protection. MR. a : And when did you start working for them? MR. QR: October 13 of 2020. oO EFTA00113914

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : And that’s the purpose of your training down at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center is to get officially trained by them? MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : Alright. Thank you, sir. When you were last with the Bureau of Prisons, what was your title and rank? MR. a: I was the lieutenant GS11 lieutenant. MR. a : Perfect. Okay. I’m just going to ask you -. As mentioned, I’m going to go over an interview port that was created. Was it true that you were interviewed by both the FBI and the OIG back in 2019 regarding the Epstein matter? MR. |g I believe so yes. I know OIG was there. I believe one of them was an agent with the FBI and they had I think an AUSA there as well. MR. a : Okay. Great. I’m going to read you that report. And if you can just stop me if anything is inaccurate and as mentioned, I’m going to ask for you to fill in a couple of the blanks. EFTA00113915

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE o 3 working for the BOP in 2004 at Fort Dix, New 4 Jersey. || eventually ended his employment 5 with the BOP and then later returned to the BOP 6 as a lieutenant. | has - so when did you wo co OD a 3 bh =] in i) = o Okay. 10 MR. a: I had a couple different 11 positions before I became a lieutenant. So. 2 MR. a : Okay. || has since 3 been assigned to various other BOP facilities 4 including Florence and Englewood. || began 15 working at the Manhattan Correction Center, 16 that’s not correct though. It’s the Metropolitan Correctional Center. Correct? 8 MR. aa: Yes, sir. 20 New York, New York approximately one year ago. 21 Do you recall from when to when did you work at 22 the MCC? 23 MR. aa: Yes. It was I believe I got 24 there in like April 2018 around that. Don't 25 quote me on that. I’m not (Indiscernible EFTA00113916

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) wo *00:05:37) around that time. It was right before summer I believe. MR. a : And that is - did you work there until you departed the BOP in 2020? MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : Okay. || is currently employed as a GS1l. || works in the special housing unit and the operations unit. || is sometimes assigned to the SR2. What is the SR2? MR. Ha: It’s a relief post. I wasn’t -. At the time of all this, Epstein, I was not the special housing unit lieutenant. So I want to make sure I was clear on that. MR. a : But you were a special housing unit lieutenant in the past? MR. |g Yes, sir. MR. a : Okay. Great. You’ll be perfect to answer some of these questions then. But the SR2. I’m sorry. What is that? MR. a: It’s like a relief post. So you kind of work some day-watch shifts, some evening watch shifts, and morning watch shifts. So it’s like a variable change post. EFTA00113917

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: They’re a (Indiscernible *00:06:26) supervisor. MR. a : And were working in both activities and operations there. MR. a: Yes, dir. MR. QJ: Se imary responsibilities while working in operations include logging the movements of the building and managing overtime issues. || also does rounds in the SHU and goes down range to address any issues that inmates have. So when you say you do rounds in the SHU, would you actually conduct rounds with the inmates? Or are you saying you would visit the SHU and do a round with your staff members? MR. a: I’m sorry. Say - repeat the question one more time? I’m sorry. MR. ae : So when this say that || also does rounds in the SHU, does that mean when you would visit the SHU would you actually do rounds with the other correctional officers that were in the SHU? So you would do rounds with the inmates? MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. QR: okay. MR. a: Rounds with staff, make sure EFTA00113918

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there’s any issues. Do rounds with the inmates if they have any issues. And then I depart. units as well and do the same thing with officers in the housing units. MR. es : Perfect. It says: | | stated that the assigned operations lieutenant will visit the SHU approximately once a day and sign the signature sheet. The lieutenant brings the signature sheet to the captain to sign and file the sheet into the logbook. So when you would visit the SHU, as an operations lieutenant, would you conduct rounds with the inmates at that time? MR. a: It also depends on the workload. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: For instance, let’s say there’s a use of force or some other disruptive inmate you’re dealing with. You know as operations lieutenant, you’ve got to address, and that’s why you have the activities lieutenant. And if you can’t make it there in time, or if he can’t address that, you’1ll kind EFTA00113919

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of cover up and go through the rounds for the operations lieutenant. MR. a : When the Epstein matter occurred on August 10, 2019, prior to that time, was there ever a requirement that lieutenants had to conduct one round in the SHU with the inmates per shift? MR. QJ: Yeah, that was policy. That wasn’t necessarily operations or activities. A lieutenant had - was obligated to go there and make rounds. Of course, like I said, working in various institutions, MCC New York is a very unique beast because it’s constant movement going on. Constant issues. But like I said, depending on the workload or situation, there’s not an issue they’re dealing with, yes. You have to go there at least once a shift. MR. a : Now just so I want to be clear on this. Is it just go there to check in or is it go there to actually -? MR. aa: No. Not just to go in there, sign the books, and go. Of course just make sure the staff’s okay. Do your rounds down range. Make sure there’s any issues - inmate issues - you log them down. See if you can try EFTA00113920

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to answer them. And go through the other housing units and do the same thing. MR. a : Okay. So it was - but at that time, in August 2019, prior to Epstein being found dead, was there a requirement that every shift that either the operations or the activities lieutenant conduct round -- MR. a: Yes. MR. QM: -- in the SHU with the inmates? MR. a : Okay. Good to know. Alright. i is not involved with the count in the SHU during the week unless there is an unscheduled emergency count. | typical involvement with the count is limited to making sure rounds have been completed. The only shift scheduled in the SHU for a lieutenant is the 6:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m. shift. There is no nighttime SHU lieutenant scheduled at MCC. || has worked at other BOP facilities where a nighttime lieutenant is scheduled. All BOP employees are required to participate in an annual refresher training. The last training was held at Po in New York, New EFTA00113921

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 York. There is also quarterly training for new correctional officers assigned to the SHU and others who are mandated to attend. The training discusses the signs of suicide and what an employee should do if an inmate attempts or successfully commits suicide. The details of these trainings are found in post orders which are displayed at the MCC. Now for people that would do overtime shifts not normally be assigned to the SHU, would they have received guidance or training on how they’ re supposed to operate when they’re in the SHU? MR. Ha: Usually - well you’re saying if the training it’s worked as a special housing officer. Correct? MR. ee: Correct. So I know like, for instance, in a special housing officer, they do quarterly SHU training. Right? MR. Ha: Yes, sir. So whoever - whoever - okay so let’s say you’ve got your regular SHU officers there. So before the SHU, they take over that SHU, before the quarter begins, they have quarterly SHU training with that staff. That’s where a lot of the rules EFTA00113922

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that are implemented in special housing reviewed, and pretty much all your policy in special housing is reviewed before that - you take over that shift for that quarter. Now for other officers that just do their overtime, and stuff like that, it’s the annual refresher training that you get once a year. MR. QJ: Okay. So at that once a year training though, do you get - was that sufficient in order to know the rules and policies and regulations for when they did work in the SHU? MR. a: Uh, technically yes. Yes. They’ re - the - it covers everything - special housing, the rules, and regulations and how movement is in special housing. My opinion, coming from different institutions, is that it’s always a lot of stuff going on in special housing because you have the (Indiscernible *00:12:00) or the ADX. I believe you should get some more training. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: That’s just my opinion. MR. a : Fair enough. Alright. So | had not heard about Epstein until he EFTA00113923

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 arrived at the MCC as an inmate. | | was not working at the time of Epstein’s attempted suicide and was told about the incident afterwards. Standard practice at MCC is that if an inmate is placed on suicide watch, a cellmate will be placed with that inmate. The psychology unit gives correctional officers a hotlist which lists the names of any inmates who are on suicide watch and require a cellmate. So if some of the -. If the officers that are working in the SHU knew that Epstein had tried to commit suicide previously, should have they known that he needed a cellmate at all times? MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : Alright. And is that regardless if that was their quarterly bidded post versus like someone -. MR. a: Yeah because in special housing, you have to house the (Indiscernible *00:12:59) the officers’ stations or right behind it. Or the one at MCC New York and any other institution, it’s right there at the officer’s stations. So you have the list, pictures, and that’s the hotlist. So anybody EFTA00113924

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that’s at suicide risk has to have an inmate. And yes. They should have. MR. a : Okay. It says: Epstein was placed on suicide watch, was brought upstairs to the SHU, and discussions about who Epstein’s cellmate would be. | was not present at any of those meetings. Once Reyes was selected to be Epstein’s cellmate, || spoke with Epstein and Reyes about it. And neither inmate had an issue with it. || physically placed Reyes into Epstein’s cell. Oh, so you were the lieutenant at the time? MR. Ha: Yes. I was the operations when they cleared that specific inmate to be with Epstein. And I put him up there. Put him in the first cell. And when I left, he was still - that was his cellmate. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: It says: Then there is an agent note and says at this point in the interview, | was shown a printed email from AUSA i. a. || stated he recalled receiving an email which was prior to assigning Reyes to be Epstein’s cellmate. Now I’m assuming that email was the one from July 30th EFTA00113925

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from psychology saying that Epstein was required to have a cellmate. Do you recall? MR. a: Yeah. Briefly. Yes, sir. I know we had a lot of emails about Epstein. And then that one I know he was required to have that. And then they specified which inmate was going to be his. MR. QJ: Okay. =It says: On 8/9/19, so on August 9, 2019, | | was assigned as the operations lieutenant on the 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. shift, which is actually worked 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Correctional officers during the morning watch shift knew that Epstein and Reyes were to be kept in the same cell. Reyes was removed from Epstein’s cell during the shift for a court appearance and was released. A new cellmate was not immediately placed into Epstein’s cell. | Was aware of Epstein being alone and was waiting to see what inmate would be assigned as Epstein new cellmate. MR. Ha: Okay. MR. a : | believed that the captain or psychology unit will make this assignment. So did you have any conversations EFTA00113926

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 with anybody -? MR. EJ: 9 No. MR. SR: No? MR. a: No. That was - would be -. No, that’s a little bit different of how it was said. MR. a : So let me -. Here, I’1ll read the next sentence and you can tell me if this is correct. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : It says: || did not tell any members of the relieving shift or captain Darden that Reyes has been released from MCC or that Epstein was currently without a cellmate. [RBBB did not work on 8/10/2019 and heard about Epstein’s death in the news. MR. |g No. So this is exactly how it went down. So with everything else, 100,000 things that was going on in that building, usually when people go to court, we don't know if they come back or not. There’s nothing specified okay, this person comes back. Sometimes they do go to court, they post bail, whatever the case may be, they get transferred. We don't know until later on that day or after EFTA00113927

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the shift. But that’s - when I heard that, it’s kind of weird how they stated that because at no point do we kind of have an idea that, oh right now this inmate is not coming back. Because especially in the detention center, a lot of these guys do come back. Some of these guys come late. Some of these guys come like 7:00, 8:00 on the next shift. It all depends. So that’s why I don't know with that statement - I don't agree with that tone. MR. a : So did you know that Epstein’s cellmate Reyes was not coming back? MR. Ha: No. I did not know. MR. QJ: 0h you did not know. Alright. Because yeah, I mean. MR. a: Yeah. I did not. MR. ae : So I know the institution was called at 1:50 advising that he was not coming back. MR. Ha: See I didn’t know that, sir. MR. a : You did not. Alright. So you’re saying how they wrote this is actually not correct. MR. a: Yeah. Not correct. I did not know that. EFTA00113928

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. Who - should have you known it if you were worked until 2:00 p.m. and then they called at 1:50? Should someone have advised you? MR. a: Either me or the oncoming lieutenant. So because when we do the lieutenant exchange, we go in (Indiscernible *00:17:22) all the building, and like I said, any other issues that we’re dealing with. Somebody doesn’t want to return to their cell or inmate fight or whatever the case may be. There’s a lot of stuff going on. That’s why I tried to tell the individuals during that first interview. During the day, it’s not like okay yeah this person goes here. It’s kumbaya all day. It’s fast moving all the time. So yes. So some things do get slipped through the cracks? Yes. Do all of them? No. But at the time with that, I was not - to my knowledge at that time - that I knew that he was coming back. MR. a : Alright. And that’s what I was going to ask you. Are you positive that you didn’t - you were not informed that he had left? EFTA00113929

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. Ha: Sir, to tell you the truth. Like me right now even thinking back then. I was not sure. I’m not sure. I was not aware if he wasn’t gone. I don't remember getting any time of notification saying he was not coming back. MR. es : So you don’t recall is what you’re saying? MR. a: Yeah. I don't recall. I did not get any type of correspondence saying that that inmate was not coming back at 1:54 or whatever the time that you stated. MR. a : Okay. MR. QJ: «That -. MR. a : Yeah, I think it was at 1:50. So when they call over to say there’s somebody is not coming back. Who do they call? MR. aa: They usually it’s the operations lieutenant or if they’re might be R&D. And R&D lets us know that this inmate’s not coming back. I never got any type of notification from R&D or the captain himself. Honestly, sir. And being with the inmate being so high profile, usually a person like that will come from our next-step-leadership which EFTA00113930

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would be the captain. I never received any correspondence from him. MR. a : No, and I’m not talking about Epstein. I’m talking about Reyes. Was Reyes also high profile? MR. aaa: No, I’m just saying then that he was in the same vicinity. If they - because they made a big issue to make sure that’s his cellmate. Because I remember a couple of times with the correspondence I got from him that this is the inmate that he needs to be with him. And make it happen. Put him in a cell with him and that. So I would assume being that he is kind of tied to Epstein for housing purposes, and they knew that he was not coming back, I should at least have got some type of notification from the captain which I didn’t at that time. That I do know. MR. Ee : Alright. So I thought you were saying that if they knew that he wasn’t coming back, they would call the operations lieutenant. Were you saying? MR. a: Well either R&D will know - Receiving District - because they deal a lot with the court cases and they’1ll disseminate it EFTA00113931

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from operations. Or if they check. Because sometimes, honestly, sir, if they call the operations lieutenant, sometimes we’re not in that office. Or we’re moving around and about whatever the case may be. It all depends on the day. So majority of the time, it will come from R&D or if somebody does notify us, like you said, more than likely be the lieutenant’s office or R&D or - for that situation - I would think the higher-ups would know and let us know. MR. a : Alright. Because I’m looking at the notes now from eh FBI. And it says the same thing. New cellmate wasn’t placed. | was waiting to see who new cellmate would be. And it would be decided by the captain or psychology who would make that decision. So do you remember talking to them about that? MR. Ha: Honestly sir, no. I don't -. MR. a : And it said that Epstein couldn’t have just been placed with anyone. MR. a: That is for sure. That he was not going to be placed with just anyone. MR. a: That is true? Is that EFTA00113932

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 what you said? MR. a: Yeah. That - they didn’t want no - any other cellmate to be with him other than Reyes. MR. a : Um, right. Okay. Alright. I’11 just keep going on. || explained that correctional officers travel between the 9th floor and the 10th floor of the MCC via staircase. Now are you talking about the MCC in general or are you talking about in the SHU? MR. a: I’m - you mean the staircase in SHU? MR. ae : I don't know. The way that that sentence says is | | explained that correctional officers travel between the 9th floor and 10th floor -. MR. QJ: ooh, that’s okay. So the 9th floor is the special housing. Now the staircase to go to the 10th floor which is the high-profile inmates go. MR. QJ: «bike 10 South. Right? MR. a: 10 South. Yeah. That’s the staircase that they’re -. MR. a: Okay. So in the general EFTA00113933

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SHU area is that was explaining how you get from the SHU up to 10 South. MR. aa: Exactly. MR. a : Okay. Correctional officers can take an elevator from the 9th floor to the 11th floor, but it does not stop on the 10th floor. The 10th floor is not a full floor and is similar to an attic. There are bathrooms for use of correctional officers on the 9th and 10th floor. Female correctional officers mostly use the 10th floor bathroom because it’s more comfortable and private. Correctional officers pick up the house phone and have the control unit open the doors for them to access the bathroom and to complete their rounds. | also explained that overtime during the nighttime shift for correctional officers in the SHU is not often sought after. This is because it requires officers to be mobile and to prepare the paperwork for the morning shift. Alright. So you already talked about how -. So during the August 9th and 10th. Every operations lieutenant or activities lieutenant should have conducted a round within the SHU and like 26 EFTA00113934

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 ~] wo 10 11 witnessed or participated in either a round or a count? MR. aa: Yes. Uh, yes. MR. a : Do you know if anybody did during your shift? 4 rr ither yourself or the activities lieutenant. MR. a: My shift it would have either been -. I don't remember going to the SHU. know I was dealing with a lot of stuff that day. Um. More than likely, if I can’t do it, it was my activities lieutenant that um, that would knock that out. MR. a : You would have asked your activities lieutenant? Is that what you said? MR. QJ: | Alright. MR. aa: Well if he knows I’m busy, or I’m dealing with something during the day, he’ll go up there and do the rounds in SHU. MR. QJ: Alright. And it looks like that would have been a. Are you familiar with QP MR. QR: ves. MR. a : Okay. Do you -. I mean I know we’re talking about a long time ago but EFTA00113935

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 w ~] wo ive) being that this was such a big incident. Do you know - do you recall if you asked him to do it? MR. QJ: «Sir, I would be lying if I said I did remember. I don't. MR. a : No, no worries. So then the person that relieved you was | a operations lieutenant and then | relieved the is] a. So during their shift, one of them should have also witnessed a round or a count in the SHU? MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : Okay. And are you positive that was policy at that time? MR. aa: At that time, a lieutenant has to at least go to SHU to make rounds ever shift. MR. QJ: |S Right. And with the inmates, not just to stop by. MR. QJ: Yes. Not just hey, how you doing. It’s actually go down range and do your rounds in range. MR. a : Alright. And then after that, the nighttime shift it would have been. You know I guess for officers it would have EFTA00113936

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 w ~] ive) been10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. That was [Ry || and it actually says the activities lieutenant -. Oh no, activities lieutenant came on at 6:00. It was just the operations lieutenant. So Po would have she been required to do the same during the same with the SHU - in the SHU? MR. a: Yes, sir. Every lieutenant should (Indiscernible *00:25:13). Everybody got to show their face at least once a shift. And now when I say show your face, you have to with the officers and with the inmates go down range. even though it was from 10:00 p.m. to 6:0 oO a.m., should have also gone downrange -- MR. |g Yep. MR. a : -- and done a round with the inmates? MR. QJ: Yes. Because that would have covered that morning watch shift. MR. ae : Alright. Great. And being that you were the lieutenant, you know the SHU lieutenant, you know that this is policy. Correct? EFTA00113937

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ha: Yes, sir. MR. a : Alright. Great. And it’s not something that was implemented after this fact? It was actually -. MR. a: No, it was -. That’s in every SHU around the Bureau. MR. a : Okay. Great. Now so if you were not informed about Reyes being removed from the institution. What should have happened and who should have taken - or who should have ensured that a new cellmate was assigned to Epstein? MR. Ha: Okay. So. Again. Repeat the question one more time. I just want to make sure I grasp what you’re asking. MR. Ee : So first of all I guess I should ask do you recall on that day were you gone by 2:00 p.m.? MR. a: Uh, if not 2:00 p.m., usually we try to relieve each other 15 minutes early whatever. Give a little exchange and we go. Oo Usually I’11 probably be out right at 2:0 MR. QJ: «MR. LARGENT: So by 2:00 p.m. you would have bene gone? MR. a: Yes, sir. p.m. EFTA00113938

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Alright. So if this information comes in and again, you said usually, typically, directly, they call and they usually typically call the operations lieutenant and provide this information that this person is not coming back? MR. a: (Indiscernible *00:26:56) I’m going to say 80% of the time, R&D would know. Okay, this inmate, because they’ve got the whole transfer of inmates, where they’re going, and what’s going on. So if they knew that one was on the court list or whatever was not coming back, you know, they usually would know. Or sometimes, you know, they’1ll notify us by calling the lieutenant’s office. That’s what I meant by that. MR. ee: Okay. So typically, R&D would call the ops lieutenant, the ops lieutenant would contact the lieutenant’s office, and they would notify the SHU? Is that how it would work? MR. Ha: Yeah. And then without fail, the such-and-such inmate needs to have - he’s not coming -. Well especially with that one. He needs a cellmate because his cellie is not EFTA00113939

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 coming back. And the whole issue of him getting that special cellmate would definitely be a - how do I put it. Somewhere not that in suicide watch and we couldn’t get involved. MR. a : I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear. What was the last thing you were saying? MR. a: So it’s, you know, especially with that, not any inmate could go with him. They should have put him on suicide watch until they confirmed which would be his next cellmate. Because I know not everybody could have gone with him. So that’s why that information should have disseminated a lot quicker. Because you know, they couldn’t find. It was a specific inmate to get with him which was Reyes. Now to get another one, they would have another backup inmate to go with him if that person didn’t come back. So I would have thought they should have put him at least in suicide watch so they can kind of figure out who they were going to stick with him being that he couldn’t be by himself. MR. a : Okay. Now do the ops lieutenant and the activities lieutenant are their shifts like the same? Would have | EFTA00113940

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 also left at about 2:00 p.m.? MR. Ha: Uh, see that time, that’s why I’m kind of confused. At that time, you just reminded me. Because I knew we went -. Usually the - typically shift for operations is eight hours. And I know at one time being with the shortage and everything, they started flipping it to 12-hour shifts. So I’m trying to remember what time | came in because if he -. MR. a : Well underneath his -. So it’s difficult because you guys aren’t all coming in at the times that is listed on the actual roster. Sounds like you’re all two hours beforehand. Like your shift says 8:00 to 1600. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : But it sounds like you’re actually coming in at 6:00 a.m. and leaving at 2:00 p.m. Is that correct? MR. a: Yeah. That was the stuff they were letting us do because of traffic especially in detention centers. They let the lieutenants come in and work the 6:00 to 2:00 instead of uh, 8:00 to 4:00 trying to EFTA00113941

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) disseminate from you know the traffic and the commute and stuff like that. MR. a : No | as the activities lieutenant, it shows that he was in there from 6:00 to 2:00. MR. a: But again, he would have been leaving exactly with me. Because that’s why in MR. QJ: Alvight. MR. Ha: -- activities they work 6:00 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00. MR. a : Alright. And so it was only the ops lieutenants that were the two hours before the activities lieutenants were actually whatever it ts] ays on the schedule? MR. a: Yes. That was their official post - 6:00 to 2:00. MR. a : Alright. So this call comes in at 1:50 according to the official records. So it’s right on the cusp of either you guys leaving or the next crew coming in. MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : And then it just -. So | who was the guy who relieved you, he said he never knew about it. No one ever Wo rf EFTA00113942

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 informed him. MR. a: Yeah. MR. a : And that’s the weird part is that your interview report says that you did. My only question for you was going to be like who informed you and did you really that information to anyone else? But -. MR. a: No. I don't recall saying that I knew. I knew he left. I didn’t knew that he was gone. You know because we have a - as an operations lieutenant, you have a list of who is going to court. So I knew he was leaving, I didn’t know he was not coming back. MR. QE: oh. MR. a: Maybe that’s where they misconstrued what I was trying to say. Yeah, I knew he was leaving. But I didn’t know he was not coming back. MR. Ee : So do you know why they would have wrote -. And this is again in both the report as well as in their handwritten notes, yo was waiting to see who the new cellmate would be. It would be decided by the captain or psychology to make that decision.” MR. a: I’m not sure, sir. EFTA00113943

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 w ~] ive) MR. Ee : No? So you didn’t have a conversation with the captain or psychology about like hey, I’m waiting on you to make that decision? MR. a: Sir, I have to be honest. I don’t’ remember talking to the captain about that. MR. a : Right. Yeah-yeah-yeah. And that’s what it says and then later in the interview report that’s where it says. And that’s the reason why we’re talking is just to figure out -- MR. QJ: 9 Yeah, 1 -- MR. ae : -- where the -- MR. aa: -- to be honest -- MR. QJ: -- he -. MR. |g I don't remember. I don't know what this - I don't remember talking to the captain about him waiting for a cellmate. So that’s pretty much saying okay I knew he was not coming back, I’m just waiting for the guidance from the captain. Which I don't remember having a conversation with. MR. a : No-no. And that’s what it says. It says, ‘i did not tell any EFTA00113944

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 members of the relieving shift or captain Darden that Reyes had been released from MCC or that Epstein was currently without a cellmate. | | did not work on 8/10 and heard about Epstein’s death on the news.” So yeah, obviously the way that it reads, it looks like - you know at least it says, the information was provided to you and then you didn’t do anything with it. So that’s why -- MR. a: Yeah-yeah. MR. a : -- we're talking to you. MR. aa: That’s why like when you’re explaining it, I’m like wow, man, that’s not how it went down. I knew he was leaving, but I didn’t know he was not coming back. I never -. I don't recall ever having that conversation with the captain well yeah, I’m waiting for you to let me know who you want me to put in there. MR. Ee : Okay. And would it have anything to do with like you getting a call as you were running out the door or anything like that? Or like telling | hey make sure this is handled? Or something? MR. a: No, sir. You - for myself. Just wait. I know you don't know me from a can EFTA00113945

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 in the wall. But when I worked special housing, there was been many nights - many, many nights that I stayed there 4 or 5 hours after just to make sure everything is done. So me getting call like hey, take care of that. No. MR. a : Okay. What other questions should we cover with him there MR. a: Hey Mr. i. when you made your rounds to the SHU, do you recall seeing any kind of paperwork on the desk saying that Epstein needed a cellmate? Like a large piece of paper or something? MR. a: I don't recall, sir. MR. Ee : But you said that there was a hotlist that he was on. MR. a: Yeah, oh yeah, the hotlist. The hotlist. I thought what -. MR. a : No-no-no. He’s asking you specifically. So the information we have is that they - on the officer in charge the OIC’s desk - there was like a colored paper that said Epstein is required to have a cellmate. And that’s what he’s asking. EFTA00113946

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. Ha: I think that was a list the officers -. I guess whatever officer was there left a note for the oncoming saying that he needed a cellmate. So I don't know after I left if that got disseminated. I’m not sure. I know that yellow note - sticky pad or whatever - that they said they wrote. That was from the officers that was there to the oncoming officers that were coming on. MR. a : Okay. So if the SHU officers knew that he was supposed to have a cellmate. Once they found out that Reyes wasn’t coming back, what should have they done? MR. Ha: With the officers should have done first of all, what they should have done was notify the oncoming - whoever the on-shift lieutenant was saying that this inmate doesn’t have a cellie. Who do you want me to put in there? So from here, that’s when the shift lieutenant should have called and notified the captain and say hey we can’t just put anybody with him. Who do you want us to put him? You want to put him on suicide watch or what until we kind of figure out who we’re going to put int here with him. That’s what should have EFTA00113947

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 happened. MR. a : Okay. So once they realized it, they should have -. Now should have that happened with every new shift. If the people are relieved on the morning watch to the night watch - or day watch to night watch, night watch knows that he’s supposed to have a cellmate, should have they again contacted the ops lieutenant? MR. a: Yes. MR. a : And then same thing for the morning watch? From the -? MR. Ha: Yes. MR. QJ: Okay. So every shift should have again -. MR. a: Yeah. Somebody should have called. Somebody should have called. MR. a : Okay. And no one called -? As far as you know, no one called you and contacted you and let you know that Reyes was not coming back? MR. Ha: Sir, I don't recall anybody having that conversation. I knew he was leaving from the outgoing stuff going on. I don't recall anybody calling me and saying he’s EFTA00113948

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not coming back. And me waiting for the captain to let me know who I should put on him. Because if it was like that, the captain should - if he was the man, so he should have known. So I don't ever recall -. MR. a : But like you said, the R&D would have called the ops lieutenant not the captain. Correct? Wouldn’t it be the ops lieutenant’s job to call the captain? MR. a: Exactly. And that’s why he -. By you saying that I was waiting for the call from the captain, means I knew that and I was waiting for the captain to give me more correspondence on who he wanted me to put on. MR. a : Yeah, no. And we can forget about that part. The part I’m asking about is do you know if anyone ever told you that Reyes wasn’t coming back? MR. a: Sir, I don't recall anybody telling me he was not coming back. But that’s I knew he was leaving. I never received any correspondence saying he was not coming back. I never got a call or nothing like that. MR. a : And would it be a call typically or an email? Or how is that usually EFTA00113949

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 done? MR. a: Call. It can be an email as well. But majority of the time it will be a call. MR. a : Okay. And you don't recall receiving a call? MR. a: No, sir. MR. a : And you don't recall telling the FBI and the OIG back at you know in let me see what date it says that. It was in August 2019. You don't remember telling them that? MR. a: I’m not saying I don't remember unless I misconstrued how I said - how I was trying to put it out there. Kind of like when I explained it to you, that’s kind of like how it’s was - how it was probably trying to mean at the time. Or -. MR. Ee : Alright. So are you thinking like what you -? Are you thinking what you told them was something more along the lines of I knew that he left to go to court but I didn’t know he wasn’t coming back to the institution? MR. a: There you go. EFTA00113950

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ee : Alright. And then do you know how they would have -? Do you remember at all if you could try to place yourself back into there, where they would have come up with the shole you’re waiting on a new cellmate to be assigned? MR. QM: Sir, I don't - 1/11 be honest. I’m not sure. MR. a : Yeah-yeah. No worries. I’m just going to - MR. a: I’m trying to go through all these years. How many years past are we - one or two? I’m just trying to remember everything. It’s just, you know -. MR. a : Sure. MR. a: I don't want to give you a false thing that says, yeah that’s what I said if I really don't - it’s. It’s kind of vague for me. MR. QJ: Okay. What else do we want to ask him while we’ve got him on the phone? Since he especially since he was the lieutenant in the SHU? MR. a: Mr. a. you wouldn’t happen to recall who the officer was in the R&D EFTA00113951

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that day. Right? MR. Ha: No, sir. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: In that building during the day, like prior to Epstein, that building every day it’s just always moving. Like we have 30 inmates going to court every day. So not including the fight that’s going on down - going on in the first or second floor - I mean, the fifth and seventh floor, we have other inmates going on with this, stuff with the officers, the inmates. There’s always something going on. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: So that’s what I was trying to explain to the people that interviewed me the first time. It’s a lot of stuff - a lot of lot of stuff going on. I’m not saying it’s an excuse or nothing like that, but sometimes the - there’s just the motion of stuff going on in that building. You know? MR. a : During your visits to the SHU, did you ever tell anybody that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? Just in general? MR. a: Yes. That when I first put EFTA00113952

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 him in there, my - he was - he’s going to have this inmate. This is his inmate and he’s supposed to have an inmate. MR. a : And when you say you first put him in there, is that after he came off of suicide watch you’re referring to? MR. a: Yes. Yes. The first time when they found Reyes and they specified this is going to be the inmate that’s going to be with him. MR. a : Okay. And did you note though not only is this going to be his inmate, the inmate that’s going to be his cellmate, but was it ever discussed that at all times he needs a cellmate? MR. Ha: Every inmate that’s on suicide watch needs a cellmate. That was the norm. MR. a : But did you ever -? I guess what I’m asking is like so if these people say, hey I didn’t know that. What I’m asking is like, do you remember ever saying that to them? That hey, guys, he’s on suicide watch. He needs a cellmate. Or is that conducted in training? Or how -? If they claim that they didn’t know that how to what EFTA00113953

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 can we say back to them and say you should have known that based upon - this person told you or it was conducted in training? Or how -? MR. a: During SHU training, you have a block of that SHU training is with the psychologist. And she goes over all the suicide risks and once he comes off the suicide watch, she always states and goes in depth with the suicide part of the SHU training. And inmate needs a cellmate coming off suicide watch regardless if it’s a felonious accusation or not because he’s going to get a cellmate. MR. a : Okay. Now is that the SHU training that’s the quarterly training you’re referring to. MR. Ha: Both. The quarterly training and the annual training refresher course. MR. a : So that’s also addressed during the annual training? MR. Ha: Yes, sir. MR. a : Okay. Great to know. Do you recall having any conversations with people just though and maybe not even in the SHU, just in general, with regard to other lieutenants about the fact that Epstein needs a cellmate at EFTA00113954

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 all times? MR. a: I don't recall, sir. MR. a : You don't recall. Alright. Do you have any reason to believe that Epstein’s death wasn’t due to suicide? MR. a : No? There was no foul play involved. MR. a: No. No foul play. It’s just - people just didn’t do their job. That’s what it boils down to. MR. a : And speaking of not doing their job, are you aware that people in the SHU were not conducting rounds and counts? MR. a: I was not aware of people not doing their rounds and counts. I was assuming that everybody was doing their job like they’re supposed to do. Do their rounds, do their counts, to make sure whatever you put on paper is what you’re supposed to be putting on paper. MR. a : Oh, okay. And on your shift, it says the ops lieutenant or activities lieutenant, would you regularly go to the SHU and conduct those rounds and counts with the inmates? EFTA00113955

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. Ha: When I was a shift lieutenant? Yes. If and I’m not saying -. MR. a : I mean not the SHU lieutenant. When you were acting as the ops lieutenant or the activities -. MR. aaa: As an ops lieutenant. If I was busy, if I did do a use of force and I’m doing an actual (Indiscernible *00:42:20), it’s either myself or my activities lieutenant. Somebody on my shift was up there to do their rounds. MR. a : Okay. And in your opinion, who then with the limited information that we just gave you, the fact that you know they’re getting the institution is getting -. Somebody in the institution is getting a call at 1:50 saying that he’s not coming back. Where - how should have this played out? Who kind of dropped the ball there in your opinion? MR. BR: oon. MR. a : Because it’s documented that the institution was called at 1:50 saying that he wasn’t coming back. MR. a: I don't know who dropped the ball. I think everybody dropped the ball. EFTA00113956

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Because if we - let’s say we start with R&D. If they didn’t specifically speak to somebody or do an email that people don't regularly check - especially at that time. Or the captain, you know, the captain should have known. Regardless, but let’s say it passed that first section. When the next shift section comes, you’ve got to go up there and do your rounds. So right there, Epstein - he’s a high profile. He obviously does not have an inmate - suicide risk. That’s the second block that missed. The third block hit the morning watch shift. So to point exactly where the ball dropped, I don't - I can’t really specify exactly. MR. a : Sure. Now I just want to -. I don't know that we really have many more. I just want to remind you though, you are under oath and this is more of an administrative matter right now, but if you know - the lying thing is what could bring it to like a criminal. So I just want to make sure that you’re confident with that statement that you did not receive a call or an email saying that Reyes wasn’t coming back. EFTA00113957

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 ~] wo 10 11 MR. a: Sir, like I said, I do not recall a phone call. If an email went through, I don't know if I didn’t check it or nothing like that. But a call - I don't remember. I don't recall. MR. a : Verbal call? Any kind of communication? MR. a: No didn’t. I don't recall a verbal call of communication or if somebody stopped by my office. Hey, he’s not coming back. MR. a : And you also don't believe you told the FBI that you received that ra’ information? Or the OIG? MR. QR: ves. saying. I don't -. I didn’t exactly say I don't - I’m not unless how I worded it came out wrong. MR. a : Because obviously this was a big deal. Right? MR. QJ: Yes, sir. MR. a : So something like -- MR. a: I wouldn’t just go and lie and MR. QJ: -- this -. What’s that? EFTA00113958

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I wouldn’t just say hey, I wouldn’t lie and say I never got a call. I truly do not recall receiving a phone call of somebody telling me he was not coming back. MR. a : And you also are saying that you didn’t tell the OIG or the FBI during your interview with also the AUSA. Because we’re going to have like you said, four witnesses that were in the room to talk to them to say, hey did he say this? Because he’s saying that he didn’t. MR. aa: Sir, I’m trying to refresh my memory. I don't recall saying. If I did say it, then I said it. But I don't recall that happening, sir. MR. a : Okay. because like when I was saying about the big event, I’m just saying like obviously Epstein dies. You would think that one, it would stand out in your mind: oh man, I got a call about Reyes not coming back. And then two, you’d remember because hey, I just got interviewed by the FBI, the OIG, and the U.S. Attorney’s Office all in the same room at the same time. MR. a: Yes, sir. EFTA00113959

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : So and again, being under oath, knowing that if you’re lying that could actually bring this from -- MR. a: Yes. MR. a : -- an administrative matter where you don't work for the BOP anymore to a potential criminal matter. Are you confident with that statement? MR. a: Sir, I don't -. I’m being honest with you. I do not recall stating that. I don't. If I did, then I don't know if I was nervous or -. I don't recall them calling me, sir. I don't. Right now, in June 16 of 2021, I do not recall them calling me and telling me that he was not coming back. MR. Ee : Okay. But as - so we’ll go past that. But again, if they had called you, you would have -. Your next course of action would have been to tell the captain. Correct? MR. a: Exactly. Tell the captain. MR. a : And you didn’t do that. Right? And should have - if they did call you - should have you told a. your replacement? EFTA00113960

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) uw ios) MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : Okay. And obviously you didn’t do either of those. Correct? MR. QR: No, sir. MR. a : Okay. Anything else we MR. QJ: No. MR. a : Alright. This is my cell phone. If for some reason that’s - you can recall and your statement change. Please let me know. because again, it’s a moment we’re Q wu talking about administrative stuff for a department you don't work for anymore. So if it -- MR. QR: 9 Okay. MR. Ee : -- you know, if you can recall that conversation, if you can recall the interview, if you can recall statements that were made, please. As soon as possible -. MR. QJ: Sir, I - I - I’m - right now I’m being completely honest with you. If I said that, like right now, I don't remember. And I don't know -. We’re talking about a year and a half ago. MR. a : But that’s not something EFTA00113961

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 w ~] wo 10 11 you’d remember. You know with the biggest case in the news and still in the news today. You know what I mean? MR. a: Yes, sir, I know. And I truly do not remember them calling me and saying he was not coming back, sir. MR. a : And again, it doesn’t have to be - it can be verbal, call, text, email - any of that. Communication. You don't recall any communication with anyone telling you that Reyes wasn’t coming back? MR. a: I’m trying to remember an email. I don't remember a call, sir. Right now. I truly don't. MR. QJ: okay. MR. QJ: «okey mr. - MR. |g Yes. MR. a: The next day, when after the incident happened, did you get called on - called into the MCC? MR. GR: No. MR. a: So you weren’t present on Saturday then? mR. BR: No. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. EFTA00113962

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LIMITED ies) w Oo co wo ive) wo OFFICIAL USE wo wi MR. Ee : Any follow-ups? MR. QJ: Nothing? MR. ae: Nothing else I can. MR. a : Okay. Well we really appreciate your time. We’1ll relay this. Obviously this information goes to the highest of levels. So if you do recall, especially in the very near term. Again, please call me back and let me know. Again, you’re under oat! we do appreciate your time. And good luck at training. And I hope CBP works out. MR. aa: Alright. Thank you. MR. ae : Thank you, sir. You have a good night. It is currently 5:2 Wednesday June 16, 2012. This is Senior Special Agent | PF and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00113963

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the forego ate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording rtment of Justi 18 23 EFTA00113964