oo wo 10 11 12 22 No Ww No > No uw DIGITALLY RECORDED ATEMENT OF MICHAEL THOMAS OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR JUNE 17, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES GENERAL EFTA00113577

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 8 WITNESS: wo MICHAEL THOMAS i=) 2 OTHER APPEARANCES: ; ee ee 4 DO GLAS MITCHELL, ESQ. 5 MONTEL FIGGINS, oO co wo EFTA00113578

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. Ee : The recorder is on. My ios) 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 7 employee Michael Thomas is being conducted as 8 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today’s date is June 17, 2021 and the time is 11 10:07 a.m. This interview is being conducted 2 at the Law Offices of Montel Figgins located at 4 Jersey. Also present are DOJ OIG Special Agent 5 | a. BOP employee Michael Thomas, Mr. Thomas’ attorney, Douglas Mitchell from the Law oO 7 Offices of Montel Figgins, and | a. Union Representative and Officer 9 Specialist at the MCC. This interview will be co 20 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent J 21 a. Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start again, I am DOJ OIG Senior EFTA00113579

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 MR. QJ: 91 am DOJ OIG Special Agent a MR. MITCHELL: I am Douglas Mitchell, attorney Douglas Mitchell, Law Offices of Montel Figgins. Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L. Qa a a. President of Local 3148. MR. THOMAS: Michael Thomas, T-H-O-M-A-S. MR. a : Thank you all. Mr. Thomas, you are here today as a subject in this OJ OIG investigation. This DOJ investigation concerns your alleged misconduct to include allegations of false statements, job performance failure, security failure, and reporting false information. This is an official DOJ OIG investigation and you are a wers to U being asked to voluntarily provide an our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Thank you, sir. Now we have a form here for our employees who provide voluntary answers to our questions. It’s the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to EFTA00113580

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says: You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 as amended. This investigation pertains to your alleged false statements, job performance failure, security failure, and reporting false information. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency proceedings, disciplinary proceedings, or both. And obviously, we have the DPA. Then there’s a waiver section. I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. Now if you want to take a look or anybody - the attorney or anybody - wants to EFTA00113581

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 take a look. That was read verbatim. But if you agree, there is a section that says employee signature. And then you can just print your name. MR. a: Just print your name right below it. MR. a : Thank you, Mr. Thomas, for signing. I am going to sign as the signature of the Office of the Inspector General Special Agent. Again, this is f PF and I’m going to print my name. Special Agent a. can you sign as the signature of witness. MR. QJ: his is Special Agent J. I’m signing as signature of witness. MR. Ee : Thank you, sir. Special Agent a. can you just fill in the date and time and then write in the place. So the date is again, 6/17/2021 and the time is 10:11 a.m. Thank you. Okay. And since there’s a union representative present, I have a form for you as well if you just want to take a look and review that. I’m not going to read that out loud for the record. MR. a: I’ve read them many a EFTA00113582

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 times. MR. a : You don't need to (Indiscernible *00:05:09) all that. Thank you, Mr. FY for signing where you said that you certify that you appeared as an official OIG investigative interview as a union representative and was provided a copy of this advisory and signing it and dating it. I am going to sign where it says name of OIG special agent. It actually doesn’t ask for my signature, so I will first print and then sign next to it. I’m dating it 6/17/2021. MR. a : Mr. Mitchell, is someone on the line? MR. MITCHELL: Well I was just setting up a conference so Mr. Figgins could dial in. No one’s there. MR. a: Okay. MR. Ee : Oh, okay. Is he going to be dialing in? MR. MITCHELL: Yeah, he’s going to join us shortly. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: Okay. MR. MITCHELL: That’s nothing. EFTA00113583

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : So shortly, attorney Montel Figgins will be dialing in. Alright. So did you understand the OIG form Mr. Thomas? MR. QJ: «= Thomas. MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes I did. MR. a : Great. Thank you. before starting, I would like to place you under oath. Can you raise your right hand please? Mr. Thomas, do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MR. THOMAS: Yes, I do. MR. a : Thank you, sir. If there’s anything that you don't understand or any kind of questions, please just ask for me to uh -. MR. THOMAS: I surely will. MR. a : Yeah. If you don't, I’1l rephrase it. MR. THOMAS: The language where if I don't understand, I will say something. MR. ae : Perfect. Thank you, sir. Alright. So what’s your current home address? MR. THOMAS: [, «ecasbey, New Jersey 08832. EFTA00113584

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : Thank you., sir. And what’s your date of birth? MR. THOMAS: [- wo MR. a : Do you happen to have any kind of ID on you just so we -- MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : -- know we’re talking to the right person? Okay. I’m looking at a New Jersey auto driver license and the name on it is Michael A. Thomas and the picture does match the person sitting in front of me. Okay. What’s your highest level of education? MR. THOMAS: Some college. I completed high school. MR. a : Okay. How much college did you have? MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t add to a little it. Sorrespondence courses when was in the bit Cc d h I th military and everything like that. MR. QJ: Okay. So was there like a course of study that you -? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? Just required. MR. THOMAS: No. Just like basic courses and stuff like that. EFTA00113585

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LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE And around when was MR. THOMAS: Uh, 2002, 2001. I’m thinking here and there. MR. a : Sure. Was it all from one institution? MR. THOMAS: It was some online course and stuff like that that I took. MR. a : Okay. Cool. While you were with the military? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, while I was in the military. It was all done while I was in the military. MR. a : Perfect. And what you do prior to working with the BOP? MR. THOMAS: I was at a Target - back room. MR. ae : Okay. And how long did you do that? MR. THOMAS: I did that for three months before I got this job here. MR. a : So it was primarily the military previously? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I got out of the military in '06 and then I started this in Thank you. EFTA00113586

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. THOMAS: Started with the BOP. Sorry. 2 MR. a : Thank you for your When were you in the military? ies) n o i] 0 o 4 MR. THOMAS: I started - I went in '98 to w oO a And what brar co Fs) Army? wo F Active duty the whole time. 10 MR. a : And when you -. Sorry. 11 MR. THOMAS: Demine Harris. 2 MR. GR: okay. attorney is getting on the phone with Mr. we're, uh - the ive) 4 Higgins. And with the Army, when you got out 15 of the Army, what was your rank? 16 MR. THOMAS: E4. 7 E4 sergeant? Is that a 8 9 that’s a specialist. 20 That’s a specialist? 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. QJ: Okay. «what was your -? 23 MR. THOMAS: Highest rank attainable E5 24 (Indiscernible *00:08:42) 25 MR. a : Okay. So you got to E5 EFTA00113587

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and then came back down to E4. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. a : Was it honorary 4 discharge? 5 MR. THOMAS: General discharge under 6 honorable conditions. 7 MR. a : Okay. Great. 8 you were in the Army, what was it that 9 -? 10 MR. THOMAS: My MOS? 11 MR. QJ: Yes. 2 MR. THOMAS: 13 Bravo. trying to figure out the word to use. 8 MR. THOMAS: MOS. 20 have you served with the Federal Bureau 21 Prisons? 22 MR. THOMAS: As of April 1, 14 years. 23 MR. a : Fourteen years? 24 was your enter on duty date? 25 MR. THOMAS: April 1, 2007. 4 MR. THOMAS: Sorry if I answered that 16 MR. Ee : No-no-no. Please. 9 MR. Ee : Perfect. And how long 12 were but EFTA00113588

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 w ~] MR. Ee : Okay. And when did you graduate from BOP training? MR. THOMAS: I don't know the exact date. MR. a : But you did attend? MR. THOMAS: It’s usually a year of probationary or something like that. Oh, you’re talking about the training at FLETC? MR. QM: At FLETC. Correct. So the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. 7 MR. THOMAS: November of ‘07. MR. a : Okay. And that was for correctional officer training? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. ae : Perfect, sir. And when and where was your first assignment with the BOP? MR. THOMAS: My whole career has been at the MCC. MR. Ee : Okay. That makes it easy. And what positions have you held while you were there? Just briefly. MR. THOMAS: Correctional officer and material handler specialist. MR. a : Just those two? MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113589

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 MR. Ee : Okay. And what does a 2 material handler specialist do? What does that 3 mean? 4 MR. THOMAS: It’s a -. 5 MR. a : What are your job duties 6 and responsibilities? 7 MR. THOMAS: It’s the commissary trust 8 fund. It’s the trust fund in the BOP. 9 MR. a : Okay. Does that mean 10 that you handle -? 11 MR. THOMAS: You deal with different 2 positions from laundry, commissary, back room 3 supply, and that’s mainly - yeah, that’s mainly 4 it 16 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. ae : And what was your grade 8 level? 9 MR. THOMAS: WS4 - WS4 Step 5 I guess. 20 MR. QJ: Okay.) what’s your 21 current cell phone number? 22 MR. THOMAS: [. 23 MR. a : Perfect. And we won’t 24 contact you. We’1ll go through your attorney. 25 But it’s just a question we ask. And your EFTA00113590

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 current email address? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, [. MR. a : Thank you, sir. And when 4 did you last work at the MCC? Physically ies) w ent? or) pre oO MR. THOMAS: Um, August 10th. I’m sorry. co i wo F And did you work both on i=) August 9th and August 10th, 2019? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 MR. a : Okay. And was that in 3 the SHU from 12:00 a.m. to 0 a.m. on both 4 days? 15 MR On both days? What do you 16 mean -? Yes. Yes Yes 7 9th, 8 9 20 MR. QM: | then again August 10th 21 8:00 a.m. - or 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. And 22 that was in the special housing unit? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. a : Also known as 25 Who was your supervisor when you last worked wu rt EFTA00113591

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) on the MCC? Or did you have one in particular? MR. THOMAS: My supervisor is Ms. a. MR. i) MR. THOMAS: Ms. [. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Great. Thank you. So just briefly, overall, what training would you is) attend while -. So I know you said you did the CO training down at FLETC. But what other training would you conduct while you’re with the BOP? MR. THOMAS: That I would conduct? MR. ae : Yeah. Like what training were you provided when you were with the BOP? Like annual training -. MR. THOMAS: Yeah, annual training. Annual training that’s usually done sometime - well it last from January to sometimes March from what I can remember. But that’s annual training. AART I think it’s called. MR. ae : Annual Refresher Training? MR. THOMAS: Yes. There you go. MR. QM: Okay. Great. Is there EFTA00113592

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 any other training that they would provide? MR. THOMAS: Um. MR. a : Like did you ever attend like SHU quarterly training or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: I have when I was off. So yes, I’ve done SHU quarterly training. Yes. MR. QJ: Okay. So would you do the annual training every year? MR. THOMAS: Annual training is every year. Yes. MR. a : And what would be the last time you think you conducted SHU training? SHU quarterly training? MR. THOMAS: I really couldn’t remember. MR. a : No, that’s fine. Alright. We have - this is actually your training records. Do you want to just -? I’m not going to ask you like to certify that these things are you know - it’s just to look at it and say for the most part, does that look like the training that you conducted. It shows from the most recent to -. To the uh, through the past. MR. THOMAS: Are these annual refresher EFTA00113593

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 training courses or -? MR. a : This is just like your training record. We ask like hey, can we have a BOP employee’s training record. They print something like this out which just shows that like on these dates were the dates that you completed training. So it looks like you completed the last annual refresher training on 4/5, which is - this is the annual refresher training course syllabus. This is the sign-in sheet. So I believe that would be the last time that you conducted your annual refresher training. And like for instance I believe that would be -- MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : -- your name and would that be your signature next to it? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. Ee : Okay. Great. So just point being, the last time you did conduct annual refresher training in April of 2019. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Awesome. Any time I provide you something, I’m just going to ask for you to initial and date it just so that EFTA00113594

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there’s no confusion of what actually was provided to you. And what you actually looked at. And it’s not - not certifying to the accuracy of this. It’s just certifying that this is what I showed you. MR. THOMAS: Any particular place? MR. es : Up top would be great. MR. THOMAS: Sign or initial? MR. a : Just initial and date. So again, it’s 6/17/21. So I’m going to take that this is not supposed to be connected. I’m going to take just your training records out of this because they’ve got a lot of your daily assignments in here and stuff. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : This was all supposed to be attached to that. So what you’1ll see is just so that we’re on the same page is just all the way from 2007 up to ’08, ’09, 2019. MR. MITCHELL: And when you say training, these were actual classes? MR. a : It’s just what they have in the BOP system. Every time he conducts a training, they log it in so they can keep a record of what training individuals conducted. EFTA00113595

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : And for this, the main point for this was that again, you did take the annual refresher training in April of 2019. Any questions on that? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. es : Any concerns? MR. THOMAS: Nope. MR. a : Great. Thank you, sir. Can you just kind of go through and find the Daily Schedule? There we go. His roster would be in there. Alright. And at that annual refresher training, like just roughly what do you recall that you had learned there? MR. THOMAS: It’s a bunch of different classes. MR. ae : Like ethics. Correct? MR. THOMAS: It goes from somebody speaking to somebody putting something up on the teleprompter and then you’re reading off it’s a variety of classes depending on how the instructor at that time would present the class. MR. a : Okay. Great. Let me see. So just to bring us back to this. It EFTA00113596

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 looks like the way that the BOP system is - this report that I just showed you. It looks like on 4/5 there’s a ton of different classes. And that just looks like probably what the annual refresher training covered. It would be like ethics, infectious disease, international security, key control, air spray, prison rape, report writing, self-defense, Weapons of Mass Destruction. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. But at different times. MR. a : Yeah. MR. THOMAS: They’re a bunch of different classes. MR. a : Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. And did they ever, at the MCC, did they ever provide you with like post orders and things like that? You know like -. MR. THOMAS: Yes. Post orders. MR. a : Post orders and their guidance and polices and things. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Awesome. Is there something that when they provided you did they say that you had to review them or they just EFTA00113597

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 give them to you? How does that work? MR. THOMAS: They’re posted on every housing unit. And -. MR. a : They’re all -. So when you go to a housing unit, the orders are actually in there? MR. THOMAS: No. They’re in a book. MR. a : They’ re in a book? MR. THOMAS: One of those books. MR. a : Okay. And do they ask you to like review them or how -? I’m just wondering how MCC goes about it. What do they do with making sure their correctional officers know what the policies and procedures are in their institution? MR. THOMAS: You have to sign them when you go to -. You’re supposed to sign them when you go to a post. MR. QJ: Okay. So like if, for instance -. MR. THOMAS: It’s on your own to review them and everything like that. MR. a : I got you. So have you ever been provided, reviewed, and signed the special housing unit order posts? EFTA00113598

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Do you remember - would that be like every time you’re in there or would that be like initial time? Or how does that work? MR. THOMAS: No. It’s -. If I’m not mistaken, I think it’s just to whenever you go in there. The one time you go in there, it’s - MR. a : So like the first time? MR. THOMAS: Every quarter you have to, if I’m not mistaken, you have to sign it. MR. a : Alright. MR. THOMAS: Every quarter. So like if you go in there between February to April. The first initial time you go in there, you sign it. And that was it. It’s not something you sign every day. MR. QJ: Richt. But like for instance in 2019, would you have been provided it and had to sign it? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: It definitely had to be in there somewhere. EFTA00113599

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : And you did? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure - . I don’t know. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : But you have been provided -. MR. THOMAS: I have signed them before yes. But I don't know if I (Indiscernible *00:18:34). MR. a : Sure. No problem. What is the BOP of MCC policy on conducting counts and rounds? Just broadly speaking. What you’re like sentence or two. MR. THOMAS: My interpretation of it? I don't. MR. Ee : Your understanding of let’s start with rounds. What are you supposed to do with rounds at the MCC? And we can even move it directly to the special housing unit so we don't get confused. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : In the special housing unit, how are you supposed to conduct a round? MR. THOMAS: You’re supposed to conduct the rounds every 30 minutes not at the same EFTA00113600

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 time but roughly about every 30 minutes. MR. a : So it’s every 30 minutes like -. MR. THOMAS: Not every 30 minutes on the hour or anything like that. Try to -. MR. a : So like a 30 to 40=minute gap. There’s like a 10-minute I guess window that you’re supposed to conduct it within every 30 minutes. Is that right? So it’s not exactly like -. MR. THOMAS: It’s not exactly -. MR. QM: 8:00, 8:30, 9:00. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It’s not exactly 8:00, 8:30. Just every 30 minutes. So if you go at 1:22, then -- MR. Ee : Sure. MR. THOMAS: -- you should go at sometime between 1:52 or whatever the case may be. It’s just every 30 minutes. MR. QJ: | nd is that for a whole 24-hour day? Every 30 minutes? MR. THOMAS: Yes. For every 24-hours. Yes. MR. a : Okay. So there’s no like you don't have to do it from this time to that EFTA00113601

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 w ~] wo 10 11 time. MR. THOMAS: No. It’s for a 24-hour day. MR. a : And how do you conduct a round? What are you supposed to do when you conduct a round in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: It depends on the time period. MR. a : Can you just explain to that a little bit? MR. THOMAS: Well if you’re just walk around. MR. MI: | Do you -? MR. THOMAS: And look in the glass. MR. ae : Are you supposed to be able to see a person and make sure that they’re there? MR. THOMAS: You’re supposed to see a person and make sure they’re there. MR. Ee : And alive and well? MR. THOMAS: Ugh, see human flesh and everything like that. Yes. MR. ae : Okay. And that they’re not in distress or need anything? MR. THOMAS: That they’re not -? MR. a: They’ re not in distress EFTA00113602

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 or need anything? MR. THOMAS: Under distress and -. Yes. MR. a : Okay. And what is a count to your understanding? A cell count. Or an inmate count. In the special housing unit. MR. THOMAS: An institution count? MR. es : No. What’s the - so when you’ re working in the special housing unit, do you not have to do a count on the weekdays from 4:00 p.m., 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. -- MR. THOMAS: You’re doing the institution count. The standard - it’s a BOP count. It’s an institution count - well I phrase it as an institution count. MR. Ee : So how do you - when you’re in the SHU, how do you conduct a count though? MR. THOMAS: Same way you do a round. MR. J: oh. MR. THOMAS: So you just walk around, verify live tissue and everything like that. And you see a person. MR. a : Are you supposed to count the numbers this time though? So as opposed to EFTA00113603

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 just going - in a round, I’m assuming you don't actually call out the numbers and certify a certain number. You just go through and make sure everybody’s okay. With a count, is it - you have to -? MR. THOMAS: In a count, you call out the numbers. And in a round you just verify. MR. QJ: Okay. And then what do you do after you get the numbers in the special housing unit? MR. THOMAS: Tally it up and put it ona piece of paper. MR. a : Okay. Like a count slip? MR. THOMAS: The count slips get time on the count slips. MR. a : Okay. Great. And were you provided training on conducting rounds and counts at MCC? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. When would have you received that training? During the annual refresher training? Annual SHU training? MR. THOMAS: Annuals yes. Annual refresher training. And SHU training. Either or. EFTA00113604

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. So any other training they would provide on that or are they the two primary times you would get that? MR. THOMAS: That’s the two primary times. MR. a : Okay. During your time at the MCC, how often would you be assigned to the special housing unit? MR. THOMAS: It depends if it was for overtime. Well besides when, just, well, assigned to be, just assigning for overtime. MR. a : So whenever you would conduct overtime you would be there? Or just - ? MR. THOMAS: Well if it was open and that’s what was open. Yeah. That’s what it would be. MR. ae : So in your - since 2007 through 2019, did you do it fairly regularly? MR. THOMAS: Fairly regularly. I mean -. MR. a : So you’re pretty familiar with -? MR. THOMAS: I’m familiar with both from 2007 to 2000 I haven’t been a correctional officer that whole time. EFTA00113605

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: I was if I’m not mistaken, I got the material handler position in 2010 or 2012 - something in between that time frame? MR. a : So I guess from 2007 from the time that you -- MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : You would do it as like as a quarterly posted bid? MR. THOMAS: Oh I never did it as a - I can’t recall ever doing it as a -. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I’ve done SHU more than a few times. MR. QJ: Yeah. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : So point being is you’re familiar with the way the SHU is operated? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I’m familiar with how everything goes in the SHU. MR. a : Alright. Awesome. So aside from doing the counts and rounds, what other training would they provide you in order to make sure that you were prepared to work in the SHU? Would they provide like suicide prevention training? Things like that? EFTA00113606

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: If I’m not mistaken, that’s on the ART. If I’m not mistaken, that’s on the ART. MR. a : Suicide? Is on the ART? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It’s one of the courses in ART. MR. es : Okay. What is? The course in ART? I’m sorry, I’m just trying to - MR. THOMAS: I really couldn’t tell you the exact name of the course or anything like that. MR. a : What you’re saying is ART has a SHU course? Is that what you’re saying? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It has -. No. I’m saying it has what you just said a suicide prevention course. I’m sure it’s something like that in ART. MR. Ee : Oh, okay. But I was trying to use suicide prevention as like an example of a training that you’re received to be able to work in the SHU. What I’m asking is like -. To make sure -. I could say -. MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think that’s an actual course to work on the SHU - to work EFTA00113607

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specifically with the SHU. It’s just an actual course that they provide at ART. It’s not specific to just one housing unit. It’s just an annual refresher like -. MR. a : SO that’s - that specific suicide. So I guess what I’m asking is, what training did they provide to you to make sure you could work in the SHU? Like - or. Let’s put it this way. During the SHU quarterly training, what type of training would they provide to you? MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember at all. MR. QJ: | You don't remember. MR. THOMAS: I don't remember often. MR. Ee : No. That’s totally fine. MR. THOMAS: Just regular SHU training. MR. a : But you have received the suicide prevention training though at the MCC annual refresher training? MR. THOMAS: At ART. MR. a : Okay. And what just very briefly, what types of things would they teach you at the suicide prevention training? MR. THOMAS: Oh. Um. I’m trying - um. EFTA00113608

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It’s just training like I don't know what’s specific with the training. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: It’s a um. They tell you how many happens in a year or in a quarter or something like that. I remember that they tell you cases of how people committed suicide. Sometimes it’s signs to watch for suicide. Um. That’s basically all I can remember with that. I don’t’ remember the training exactly. MR. a : Sure. That’s fine. Now as you said, you worked from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. on both August 9th and August 10th, correct? In the SHU? MR. THOMAS: August - well it’s August 10th I think. If I’m not mistaken it’s -. MR. ee: But August 9th and August 10th you did 8:00 a.m. till - MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : I’m sorry. I mean 12 a.m. to 8 a.m. on both days. MR. THOMAS: No. Not both days. MR. THOMAS: See this really has me confused. If let’s say the shift started at 12:00. Usually the shift starts at 0001. EFTA00113609

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Correct. MR. THOMAS: So if I came in, I came in on the 9th, but the shift didn’t start until midnight. It’s from midnight to eight in the morning. MR. a : Right. So what I’m saying is midnight on August 9th. So you know MR. THOMAS: Which is August 10th. MR. a : You probably got there on August 8th. MR. THOMAS: No-no-no. So I didn’t work - MR. QJ: So here’s your daily assignment roster. I just want to make sure. So August 10th, August 9th. It says that you were in the SHU both days. MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I do -. MR. Ee : I thought we talked about that earlier. I just wanted to make sure. So at the start of this interview, we talked about MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I did SHU. I didn’t’ recall that I did SHU two days ina row. EFTA00113610

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Right yeah. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : So I don't think you kind of called out maybe the two days leading up but you still did your overtime shift. MR. THOMAS: These are all overtime shifts for me. MR. a : Yeah, I know. MR. THOMAS: None of this is regular shift for me. This is all overtime for me. MR. a : Okay. Great. So just the point being I just wanted to make sure you did work there on both August 9th and August 10th from that midnight to 8:00 a.m. shift. MR. THOMAS: Yes. Okay. Yes. MR. Ee : Awesome. Just because I presented this to you. DO you mind just initialing and dating it? Does that appear to be your daily schedule for it looks like it started back on June 29, 2019 up until 8/10/2019. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. This is not a daily schedule for me. This is all overtime. As you can see, it’s all overtime. MR. a: Sorry. The daily EFTA00113611

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 assignments for overtime. MR. THOMAS: For overtime. Yeah. These are all -. MR. a : They’ re all your overtime shifts. MR. THOMAS: These are all - this is not my daily -. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: So it’s just all overtime. MR. a : And as you mentioned, that’s why it says the number of times in here where it’s the SHU. MR. THOMAS: It’s the SHU and internal mostly. MR. a : Right. Because they were overtime shifts working in the SHU. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Thank you for that clarification. Thanks. And what are your overall duties and responsibilities when you are assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Maintain the count of inmates. Make sure the inmates are fed. Depending on what shift you’re referring to, take over a shift, make sure they get their EFTA00113612

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 showers. Um. Make sure they’re counted and that’s basically it. MR. a : Okay. And are there any special requirements for inmates who are assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Not that I know of. No. MR. es : So are inmates that are assigned to the SHU -. Unless they have some classification where they could be hurt by another cellmate, are they all supposed to have cellmates? MR. THOMAS: Classification. Like I don't know if they still - some if I can recall, some a cell and rec alone. Maybe they were ina fight and they, what’s it called. When they keep away from all inmates. Um. But other than that some could be cell rec alone. MR. a : So for the most part, I should say, are inmates in the SHU supposed to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: That’s not -. I don't know. MR. a : My understanding was that they’ re all supposed to have a cellmate unless they meet some kind of a criteria like they’re a certain type of an inmate who would be harmed EFTA00113613

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 by another cellmate. Is that not correct? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 3 MR. a : You’re not sure? 4 MR. THOMAS: I’m not sure. MR. wi Fair enough. No problem. 6 Have you ever received training for medical ~] emergencies with inmates? 8 MR. THOMAS: In the ART. 9 MR. QJ: tn art? 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. a : Were you also an 12 instructor? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I’ve never instructed. 15 instructor? 16 anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 instructor. 19 VR. a: 20 medical emergencies, 21 when they cover that 22 during SHU training? 23 inmates? 24 MR. THOMAS: 25 think so. Never like a CPR I don't You’ve never been an instructor or No I’m not a CPR Okay. Alright. So for the ART is pretty much ? Do they cover that also Medical emergencies for recall. No. I don't EFTA00113614

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 lo \o MR. Ee : You’re not sure. MR. THOMAS: I don't think MR. a : Like you got at annual training? n oO. MR. THOMAS: The annual training. MR. a : Alright. Who is or was inmate Jeffrey Epstein reg number 76318-0054? MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. MR. a : Okay. Do you recall when Epstein was housed at the MCC? Does July 6, 2019 through August 10, 2019 sound familiar? MR. THOMAS: I don’t remember when he first got there. But I don't remember when exactly he first got there. MR. a : So these we just - this is just that overtime roster. When it looks like you were assigned to the SHU pretty regularly from 7/11/2019 to 8/10/2019. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. QJ: When you were there, was he in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. THOMAS: Sometimes. MR. a : I’m assuming not the EFTA00113615

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 whole time. MR. THOMAS: Not -. MR. a : Because I think he was on suicide watch. But when you were there he was - you know him from being in the SHU though? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I’ve seen him before in the SHU yes. Absolutely. MR. a : Okay. Perfect. Do you know why Epstein was assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? They never told you why? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : Okay. Was it high- profile? For suicide? Safety concerns? Anything like that? MR. THOMAS: It could have been a number of reasons that, his case was high-profile, whatever the case may be. MR. QJ: Okay. And was Epstein assigned to the SHU on both August 9th and August 10th, 2019? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And we kind of just covered this, but do you know how long he EFTA00113616

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was assigned to the SHU? Again, I believe it was July and August aside from those timeframes. Correct? MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. MR. a : Yeah. That’s fine. What was Epstein’s routine while he was assigned at the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Because you did the overnight shift, I can understand that. So are you aware that like during the day he would meet with his attorneys every day? And then he would be - so from basically 8:00 a.m. until like 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. he was? MR. THOMAS: I honestly really don't know. MR. a : You don’t even know. So when you worked in the SHU was it always that 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? In the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Well I mean I’m sure I have some evening watch ones. I don't know if I have some evening watch or not. But I’m sure I’ve done evening watch or anything like that but I didn’t look exactly at that. Maybe that’s all morning watch. This is all morning watch. Oh that’s day watch internal. EFTA00113617

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : So these like for July and August? MR. THOMAS: It’s all yeah. This is all morning watch. MR. a : So they would all be from 12:00 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That’s all 12:00 a.m. MR. a : And how is that identified as that -? MR. THOMAS: Oh. Right here where you see MW is for morning watch. They say DW is for day watch. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: But it’s all morning. MR. a : So all morning watch while Epstein was assigned to the SHU. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Okay. Cool. Now did you ever have any communication with Epstein during his stay at the MCC? MR. THOMAS: One particular time. MR. ae : Can you tell me about that particular time? MR. THOMAS: He was on suicide watch and I was watching him on suicide watch. EFTA00113618

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Oh you actually watched him when he was on suicide watch? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. Not while you were in the Shu though? MR. THOMAS: No. Not while I was in the SHU. MR. a : Alright. When you were watching him, was that a positive or a negative experience? MR. THOMAS: Just - I don't. I can’t label it under positive or negative. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: It was just watching him. MR. a : Like were his interactions with you - were they like -? MR. THOMAS: Oh, he spoke with me and everything like that. MR. Ee : Was he pleasant? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, he was pleasant. He wasn’t mean or anything like that. He was really incoherent where he was at. But other than that, he was just fine. He just sat there and talked with me until I mean the whole six hours. EFTA00113619

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. And do you remember around when that took place? MR. THOMAS: I really can’t recall. MR. a : Would have that have been -? Does it say it on this? Up. Actually it does on this thing it says suicide watch. Would it be on 7/23/2019? MR. THOMAS: That could have been his. That could have been that one. MR. QJ: Okay. So on 7/23/2019, I believe he had an incident within his cell. And are you familiar with -? So when you were watching him on suicide watch. Do you know why he was there? MR. THOMAS: Oh, for suicide watch. I mean it’s -. MR. ae : Yeah. Did you hear that he tried to take his life? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I’ve heard that. As you can see, I was internal that day. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Internal you just go up and you count all the housing units and everything like that. And I guess he tried to commit suicide. And then we brought him down to the EFTA00113620

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 suicide room. And I sat there and watched him for - I don't know what six hours, seven hours, whatever that is. MR. a : But prior to them sitting down or even after, did they inform you why he was there? MR. THOMAS: Well it’s suicide watch. It’s pretty self-explanatory? MR. a : But they didn’t provide you details? MR. THOMAS: No-no. Just if you’re there on suicide watch it’s kind of self-explanatory. But if you go on -. Depending. Suicide watch is one thing and observation watch is another. But if it says suicide watch, I’m sure he was on suicide watch because he was in a smock and um -. MR. a : What does a smock mean? MR. THOMAS: It’s just a cover that you put over so you don't have any clothes or anything like that. MR. a : Okay. Is it so they can’t harm themselves? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, so they don't harm themselves. Mm-hmm. EFTA00113621

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. And were you the only individual on that, observing him during suicide watch? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I was the only one watching him that time. MR. a : And you said there is a difference between suicide watch and psychological observation. What is the difference? MR. THOMAS: Well psychological observation you have your clothes. MR. a : Okay. But I mean as far as you as a CO. MR. THOMAS: There’s no difference. You’re still watching them. There’s no difference. MR. ae : Okay. MR. THOMAS: You’re still just watching them in the suicide. In observation, you just have clothes and suicide watch you’re ina smock and a blanket. MR. a : Okay. And did you receive any instructions with regard to Epstein when he was assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00113622

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 w ~] MR. Ee : Specific to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No. And are you aware that Epstein was assigned any cellmates when he was assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Um, I’m sure he was. Maybe he was. I don't really recall. MR. a : So you don't recall if he had a cellmate or not? MR. THOMAS: I know one time he had a cellmate. I don't recall like if he was assigned a specific cellmate or not. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Or for his case whatever the case, but I’m sure he had a cellmate. Unless he was cell or rec alone. MR. ae : Okay. Do you know if Epstein was required to have a cellmate when he was assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : And did anyone ever speak with you about Epstein needing a cellmate when he was assigned -- MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QM: -- to the SHU? No one EFTA00113623

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 provided any instructions? Um was there a sign posted within the SHU saying that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don’t know. I don't think so. I don't know. MR. a : Do you ever recall there being a sign posted on his door saying he was required to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Do you ever remember a sign being posted on the officer in charge’s desk area or computer saying that he was required to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: That’s - I don't go to his office. The officer in charge. I don't. MR. Ee : So is that different than where you would sit in the SHU area? MR. THOMAS: The officer in charge or the lieutenant office? MR. a : Not the lieutenant. The orc. MR. THOMAS: The OIC. Well the OIC has a desk. I didn’t see a sign. I don't remember recall ever seeing a sign -- EFTA00113624

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LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE MR. THOMAS: -- specific to Epstein. No. MR. a : Okay. So no one ever talked to you about the fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall anybody specifically talking about he needs a cellmate or not. MR. a : Okay. Do you know who Inmate Nicholas Tartaglione is? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : And who is he? MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. MR. a : Do you know if he was ever assigned as Epstein’s cellmate in July of 2019? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I remember he was a cellmate of his. When that incident happened, he was actually a cellmate of him. MR. QJ: So from July 23, 2019? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That’s the 23rd? MR. QM: Ss ves. MR. THOMAS: Yes. The 23rd. MR. a : So that was - he was his cellmate up until that date? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was up to 49 EFTA00113625

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that date, I just remember that particular day, Tartaglione was his cellmate that day. MR. a : Alright. And are you aware of any issues that took place between Epstein and Tartaglione? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : So you don't know what transpired at all for that -? MR. THOMAS: For them? No. No. MR. a : Okay. And you didn’t respond to any kind of incident? Did you respond on July 23rd? MR. THOMAS: To that incident. Yes. Me and another officer responded that time. And by the time we got there, he was -. Because I got there after the other officer got there. And we just took him out. MR. a : What other officer got there? MR. THOMAS: Um, who was it...? I don't remember the two officers that were on duty that day, but the other officer that was there, it was a. MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113626

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 w ~] MR. Ee : And he worked in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. He didn’t. I don’t remember if | was working in the SHU or not. But I remember when we responded, I remember it was me and aa. I remember a. I honestly couldn’t tell you who the other two officers on duty up there. Maybe | | was one of the officers, but I know when we responded, when we go there, I remember seeing a. MR. a : Were you working at the SHU at that time? MR. THOMAS: No. I was internal that day. MR. ae : Alright. So I’m assuming that you weren’t the first to arrive. MR. THOMAS: No I wasn’t the first to arrive. No. Absolutely not. MR. a : Okay. So that’s what I thought you meant by being the second one there. So can you just explain what you meant by that? MR. THOMAS: Um, from what I can remember. I wasn’t the first to respond to - I wasn’t the first person on that site on -- EFTA00113627

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: -- the scene of that. But I did eventually get there. Yes. MR. a : Okay. So you were one of the responders? MR. THOMAS: I was one of the responding yes. MR. a : And when you go there what did you see? MR. THOMAS: By the time I got there, they were actually - they were actually just bringing him out. MR. a : Bringing who out? MR. THOMAS: Uh, Mr. Epstein. They was bringing out Mr. Epstein. MR. a : Out of his cell? MR. THOMAS: Out of his cell. Yeah. MR. ae : Where were they bringing him to? MR. THOMAS: We was taking him to the suicide which is down on the second floor. MR. a : Okay. So they were moving him from the SHU to the suicide watch area? MR. THOMAS: To the suicide watch area on the second floor. EFTA00113628

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I remember. MR. a : And do you know why he was removed? MR. THOMAS: I guess they say he tried to commit suicide or whatever. MR. a : Okay. Did you hear anything about Tartaglione attempting to harm Epstein? MR. THOMAS: I can’t recall what he would say. I think he said he tried to beat him up or something like that. I think he said he tried to beat him up. I really don’t remember the exact details of what he was saying. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: But I think he said he was trying to beat me up or something like that. MR. a : So Epstein was claiming MR. THOMAS: Trying to beat him up or something like that. MR. a : Was he saying that he didn’t try to commit suicide but rather that Tartaglione was trying to harm him? MR. THOMAS: I remember him saying that EFTA00113629

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tartaglione was trying to beat him up. I remember him saying that. MR. QM: Okay. And did he tell you that? MR. THOMAS: He was just saying that. Yeah, he was just -. Well we were talking. MR. es : When -? MR. THOMAS: So yes, he did tell me that. We were just talking. MR. a : Was that when you responded or during your psychological observation or suicide watch observation? MR. THOMAS: It was just when we were in observation together. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: When I say he was really incoherent. He was just saying because actually me and || was there for a while. It wasn’t just me by myself for maybe about 10 - 15 minutes when we got him. Let’s say half an hour. Got him there. Got him de-clothed. Got him into the suicide room. And then the lieutenant was there. Who was the lieutenant there? Oh I can’t remember. Who was the lieutenant there? And because I don't have EFTA00113630

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 55 keys and stuff for that - for the suicide room. t name? Are you aware? 7) MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. MR. a : You don't know? MR. THOMAS: I really don't. MR. a : That’s fine. Did you - when you responded - did you see any kind of like orange homemade rope or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: No. I didn’t notice. MR. a : That was used to try to MR. THOMAS: I don't remember seeing any of that stuff. MR. Ee : No? So but you did have a conversation with Epstein about Tartaglione trying to harm him? MR. THOMAS: He said that Tartaglione tried. I remember him saying he was trying to harm him and that was it. Yeah. MR. ae : Okay. And did you believe that to be true? MR. THOMAS: I didn’t. EFTA00113631

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I really didn’t. MR. a : So do you think he was using it? Why do you think he said it? MR. THOMAS: Probably just wanted to get out of the cell. I don’t’ know. I really don't. I really don't know. MR. es : Okay. But you didn’t believe it. You believed that he was actually trying to harm himself rather than the other cellmate trying to harm him? MR. THOMAS: Inmates say things. I really don't know if it was. I really don't know. I really don't know. I just - me at that time, I was just sitting there. He wanted to talk. I’m there. Why not talk? MR. a : Absolutely. But it didn’t cause you concern when he was saying that another inmate was trying to harm him? MR. THOMAS: Well it was passed up and everything like that. Because when he came out, he said it to the lieutenant and everything like that. So everybody was known. But as far as anything - any concern. No. Inmates harm each other all the time. MR. a: Sure. Do you know if at EFTA00113632

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that time Tartaglione? MR. THOMAS: It’s alright. I can’t pronounce his name either. MR. a : Tartaglione was moved and no longer Epstein’s cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure if they said he tried to harm, I’m sure he was no longer his cellmate after that. I’m sure. MR. a : Okay. Do you know around how long he was on suicide watch and then psychological observation? Outside of the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Alright. So does July 23 to approximately July 30th sound to be about right? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. ae : Sure. MR. THOMAS: I don't work in that area. MR. QJ: No, that’s fine. So if Epstein came back to the SHU on July 30, 2019, do you know if he was assigned another cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure they wouldn’t put him back in with the same one. So. I would say yes. I don't know specifically, but I -. EFTA00113633

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 w ~] MR. Ee : But he had another cellmate? MR. THOMAS: Maybe he could have been solo. I don't know. I really don't know. MR. a : Do you recall checking = being that he’s such a high-profile. You know in the SHU. Do you remember ever you know when you were in the SHU, you remember seeing two people in his cell? MR. THOMAS: I really don't recall. MR. a : You don’t’ know? MR. THOMAS: I mean, it could have been two people. He could have been by himself. I really don't remember. MR. a : Do you know what inmate - MR. THOMAS: Exact or counts. MR. a : Sure. I’11 try to help your recollection. Do you recall an inmate named Efren Reyes, R-E-Y-E-S? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : So you don't remember that name? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a: So he was Epstein’s EFTA00113634

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 cellmate from July 30th through August 9th, 2019. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : Are you not familiar with that? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know who that MR. a : Okay. Were you there at all when Epstein was returned from the suicide watch / psychological observation area back to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? So you’re not sure if Reyes was already in the cell or not? MR. THOMAS: I’m not sure. Like I said, if you could look at the thing. I’m morning watch. So. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: They’re all in their cells tucked in at that time. So I couldn’t tell you who was in there or -. MR. a : Okay. And do you know anything about Reyes being removed from the MCC on August 9, 2019? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. EFTA00113635

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : You don't know that. So on August 9th when you probably got there and through August 10th when you worked there, that wasn’t discussed at all? That Reyes was removed and Epstein was without a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? You didn’t have that discussion with -? Who did you work with that night? MR. THOMAS: Well I know, the 10th I know who I worked with. The 9th I don't know who I was up there with. MR. QJ: «tn the suv? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : You’re not familiar with who you were in the SHU with? MR. THOMAS: On the 9th? MR. QM: No on the 10th. MR. THOMAS: On the 10th? Yeah. Ms. MR. a : So I’m sorry, when I said the 9th, I meant when you were - you probably arrived at the institution prior to 12:00 a.m. MR. THOMAS: Yes. I arrived to it but I didn’t go straight up there. I went down to my EFTA00113636

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 office for, I didn’t go straight up to the SHU. MR. a : Okay. Right. So that’s what I’m saying. You arrived there on the night of August 93th and then worked in the SHU from midnight August 10th to 8:00. MR. THOMAS: Oh see, okay. Now I see what you’re saying. Yeah. I got there let’s say at 11:50 or 10 minutes prior to try to be there a little early. But I thought when you keep saying the 9th because -- MR. a : Yeah, absolutely. MR. THOMAS: -- as it shows I worked on the 9th. That’s why. MR. QJ: Absolutely. MR. THOMAS: But if I got there on the 9th at 10:50, Ms. Noel was up there. MR. ae : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I can’t remember who the other person was. Because it’s usually two people. It had to be two people. I can’t remember who the other person was. MR. a : Sure. And so I'll just ask that last question to make sure that we’re on the same page. When you arrived. Prior to your August 10th shift on August 9th at EFTA00113637

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 approximately about -- MR. THOMAS: 11:50. MR. a : -- 11:50 p.m. Was Reyes discussed? Inmate Reyes. Or the fact that Epstein was without a cellmate. MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No. Okay. And do you know if Epstein should have been assigned a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he’s -. Well usually if you’re committed if they - someone commits - they usually try to not put them by themselves. MR. QJ: | Right. So if you come back from suicide watch or psychological observation, you’re supposed to have a cellmate. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : Correct? MR. THOMAS: But that would have been done prior to my shift. That wouldn’t have been done on the morning watch shift. No movement happens at the morning watch. MR. QJ: But -~ MR. THOMAS: That happens prior to my EFTA00113638

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 shift. MR. a : Absolutely. But just my point being people that come off of the psychological observation or suicide watch, they are required to have a cellmate. Correct? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. es : Okay. And is there some kind of like a hotlist that’s in there? MR. THOMAS: It is. I do recall. You’re saying hotlist. There is something called a hotlist. I don't know where it’s at or anything like that. But I’m sure they do have something called a hotlist. Yes. MR. QJ: | what is a hotlist? MR. THOMAS: The MCC definition of it. I don't know. I know it’s just inmates that are - it could be inmates that are cellie. It could be that means that they’re cell rec alone. It could be the inmate’s suicide watch. It could be the inmate’s mental instability. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Hotlist. It’s a culmination of a bunch of different things. MR. a : Why are people placed on the hotlist? 63 EFTA00113639

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't place people on the hotlist. I don't know. That’s psychology. MR. a : Yeah. So if it’s up there though for people to see that this is the hotlist. Is there like a reason? Is it something like these people all need cellmates? These people need special attention. These people -. What’s the -? MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. I couldn’t tell you on that. It’s just like a hotlist. I know it’s a hotlist. Some - the psychology put. I don't know if it’s particularly that all these people need cellmates or the hotlist or -. I know that there is something called a hotlist at MCC. I don't know where they - entails you to get on the hotlist. No. MR. a : Oh. So not what it takes to get on it. But why it’s posted there. Like if you’re on the hotlist, what does that mean? MR. THOMAS: Like I said, it could have been because you -. MR. a : So is there a description next to a name? Does it say you’re on the hotlist because of this reason? EFTA00113640

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember. I don't -. I can’t remember what it looks like. MR. a : Okay. But there is a hotlist within the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. There is a hotlist somewhere. MR. a : Alright. And do you know MR. THOMAS: I don't know if it’s posted or not. I don't think -- MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: -- it’s posted. I don't know. But I do recall something called a hotlist in the SHU. MR. a : So you recall a hotlist. You don’t remember seeing it? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember seeing it. MR. Ee : Okay. So you never like reviewed it or anything? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember reviewing it. No I don't. MR. a : Were you supposed to? If you were assigned in the SHU, were you supposed to say oh these people are on the hotlist. I EFTA00113641

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 w ~] need to take special care to these people. MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. No. MR. No? MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. MR. QM: so —-.. MR. THOMAS: I don't think it was anything special care or these people or not. Absolutely not. MR. a : So what would be the purpose of posting a hotlist then? Who would it be for? MR. THOMAS: It’s for the staff in SHU. MR. QJ: Right. MR. THOMAS: It’s for the staff in SHU. MR. a : So if you’re a staff in the SHU, doesn’t that mean that you’re supposed to look at it? MR. THOMAS: Supposed to for the staff. Yes. You’re supposed to look at it. MR. QJ: Alright. But you didn’t? MR. THOMAS: I would say no I didn’t look at it that night. No. MR. a : Fair enough. So do you know if Epstein was on the hotlist? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was on the EFTA00113642

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 hotlist. MR. a : But you do know he was on suicide watch and that he should have had a cellmate. MR. THOMAS: Yes. I knew he was a suicide person. Yes. MR. es : Okay. Now could SHU staff have assigned Epstein a new cellmate. MR. THOMAS: Could SHU staff do it? I don't know if SHU staff could do it. I know the SHU lieutenant or something like that could do it. But I don't know if SHU staff could just give him. I don't know. MR. QJ: «So who would be responsible for assigning Epstein a new cellmate? So let me if it wasn’t clear. Reyes was his cellmate. He was required to have a cellmate because he was on suicide watch. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And psychology made sure that - or was supposed to make sure that - everyone knew that he was supposed to have a cellmate. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a: So if Reyes leaves as his EFTA00113643

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cellmate on August 9, 2019, who would be responsible for placing a new cellmate with Epstein? MR. THOMAS: Honestly I don't know. Honestly I don't know. I’m sure it has to come from somebody higher up. Obviously a lieutenant or it could have come sometimes high-profile could come from the administration. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Whatever the case may be. So specifically I really don't know. But I know it’s somebody higher up has to give him - higher up than me - has to. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don't think an officer would just put somebody in there with him. MR. QM: Okay. Now is that discussed at all like during any of those trainings or the suicide prevention trainings? Is it discussed like hey if you know this guy is on suicide watch, make sure he’s got a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. I don't EFTA00113644

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 think it’s discussed like that. No I don't. MR. J: «No? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Alright. So how do you know that if you’re on suicide watch they should - the inmate should have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I mean we were told. You’re told before that if an inmate is - has previously been on suicide he has a cellmate. MR. a : So I guess what I’m asking is when were you told that? And where? MR. THOMAS: I’ve been there for 14 -. I mean I can’t remember exact -. MR. QJ: Yeah-yeah. So possibly training? MR. THOMAS: Possibly training. Word of mouth like that but I know -. MR. a : You knew it but you just don't remember where you learned it from? MR. THOMAS: That’s correct but then you have inmates that go on suicide watch and come back that don't have a cellmate. So I’ve seen that also have the inmates go there. Come off suicide and not have a cellmate. So it’s -. MR. a: Would there be a reason 69 EFTA00113645

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for a person who came off suicide watch not to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know the reason or anything. Like I said, that’s also the psychology personally handle that. But I’ve seen also with inmates come up there and they go into a cell by themselves. MR. a : Okay. But you’re -. And again I don't know that this was clear. If you’ re working in the SHU and you know someone is supposed to have a cellmate, are you authorized to provide them with a new cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. QJ: | You don't know? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. Ee : Have you ever done it? MR. THOMAS: No. I’ve never done it. MR. a : You’ve never done that? MR. THOMAS: No. I’ve never just put somebody inside a -. Are we talking with a suicide? I’ve never just put somebody in a cell with somebody else. MR. a : Okay. Should you -? MR. THOMAS: Especially not at morning watch. Absolutely not. EFTA00113646

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. As someone in the SHU working in there and knowing someone’s without a cellmate that should have a cellmate, should you report it to a lieutenant? MR. THOMAS: If they don't have a cellmate should you report it to a lieutenant? Mm. I don't know. I mean. Usually if that happens, the lieutenant, because with certain inmates you can’t just put somebody in with them like. It could be a racial thing. It could be he had a previous incident. He could be whatever the case may be. So I know officers don't want to just do it because then they say oh that person can’t be in with them. And also before you put an inmate inside so you have to check their background as far as steps so this person can’t be with this person. Or this one is affiliated with this and this person. So for an officer because some officers don't have the programming -. I mean don't have the thing just to say oh well I’m going to see inmate this and I’m going to put him into that. MR. QR: Okay. MR. THOMAS: So that’s why an officer wouldn’t just put an inmate inside with another EFTA00113647

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] - with someone. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. It has to come down from up top. MR. a : Alright. From your knowledge being that Reyes left and Epstein is required to have a cellmate and didn’t have one. Do you believe SHU staff should have assigned Epstein a new cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. QJ: No? MR. THOMAS: I don't -. MR. a : So per your training -. MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : And you know work experience. MR. THOMAS: Should SHU staff just has assigned him? No. I believe that should have come from somebody above him. MR. QM: Okay. MR. THOMAS: Somebody above the SHU staff. MR. QJ: «so if the SHU staff doesn’t inform anyone about an inmate required to have a cellmate that they don't, how do people higher above them learn that there’s no EFTA00113648

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cellmate with someone like Epstein? MR. THOMAS: Well whoever is on shift at that time. It’s a process. Like it’s if someone leaves and goes from R&D to -. A staff member can’t just let somebody leave. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MR. THOMAS: You know. I can’t just let somebody walk just because he can walk in walk out. MR. a : Absolutely. MR. THOMAS: Has to come from R&D oh this person was released. And then because then the base count changes. And then so it’s notified before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody left. Or -. MR. a : So -. MR. THOMAS: Now if it wasn’t you know that specific that Reyes left. You know what I mean. That Jeffrey Epstein. I know before it gets to the SHU staff happened to put somebody in there. It has to come from someone else to know that inmates left from a particular housing unit. Or SHU have to tell them the inmate left from a particular. Now whether they know that it was Epstein’s um cellmate EFTA00113649

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that left. I don't know. That’s above me. But it comes from way up from - it comes from before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody left. The only thing that a SHU staff is going to get is a call saying that oh yeah, base count changed that such-and-such is not there. MR. es : So if the people that are calling SHU and saying hey this inmate is leaving. So in this instance it would be on August 9th. SHU staff. You weren’t there. But SHU staff gets the call and hey, inmate Reyes is leaving. Do those people know that Reyes was assigned to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure they -. I mean. I’m sure they should -- MR. a : Or would the SHU staff be responsible -- MR. THOMAS: -- know that he was assigned MR. a : -- for saying hey he’s leaving but Epstein is required to have a cellmate. That’s Epstein’s cellmate. How does that information get passed along? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. EFTA00113650

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know when that particular - when that will happen. I really couldn’t tell you when that would actually go down in the - go down. MR. a : Okay. And this is specific to you. If - you said you didn’t - but would you have been authorized to assign Epstein a new cellmate during your shift on August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: Would I have been authorized to? MR. a : Right. So if you knew that Epstein was required to have a cellmate -. MR. THOMAS: If somebody would have told me to give. I wouldn’t have just taken it upon myself to take an inmate out from X and put him to where in to Epstein. No. If somebody authorized me to put him in there, then I would have put him in there. But -. MR. a : But you wouldn’t have that authorization to do that independently? MR. THOMAS: Independently? MR. QJ: «Right. MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00113651

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : So you couldn’t on your own make the decision. Hey, he’s without an inmate - he’s without a cellmate. I need to get a new inmate in there. MR. THOMAS: I’m going to say no. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I’m going to say no. Not especially with a high-profile. You’re not just going to put somebody in with somebody else. Absolutely not. MR. a : Alright. And obviously since you didn’t know, I believe I already know the answer to this, but did you notify anyone during your shift on August 10th that Epstein did not have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No. Alright. Now we’re going to talk a little bit about staff psychologists. Because you mentioned them. Do you know who the MCC staff psychologists were in August 2019? MR. THOMAS: Dr. QM. You're talking about the -. MR. QE: «ts br. BMJ the chier - EFTA00113652

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Oo w ot) oO oo MR. THOMAS: [x- MR. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 n) o + Bb Q my ct J fu No I’m not. EFTA00113653

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : So would have he -? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure if he went on suicide, I’m sure he met with them. But I don't know specifically that they go on this date that he met with them. MR. a : No, it’s -. MR. THOMAS: If he was on suicide watch, I’m sure he’s met with someone. MR. a : Now how places someone on suicide watch? MR. THOMAS: Psychology. MR. a : Okay. So if Epstein like you said was on suicide watch, would have psychology then placed him there? MR. THOMAS: Well a psychology will say that he has to go there and then the staff - the custody staff would actually take him to the suicide area. MR. Ee : Okay. And just briefly, what is suicide watch? MR. THOMAS: It’s a place where you watch somebody on suicide. MR. a : Like you said, did you say the second floor? MR. THOMAS: It’s on the second floor. EFTA00113654

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yeah. MR. a : So the second floor is a separate area? MR. THOMAS: It’s a separate area. Four cells. And in that pack you can, I’ve seen suicide watch be in the SHU sometimes. So it just -. MR. QJ: | And just on that note, where is the SHU? What floor? MR. THOMAS: Ninth. MR. a : Ninth floor. Alright. So. He was on the 9th floor. Went down to the second floor - Epstein that is. On suicide watch. So it’s on the second floor. And like how long are they there? Like who makes that determination I guess is what I’m saying. MR. THOMAS: I would say -. MR. a : Who’s in there? Is psychology like co-located with it or how is it -? The suicide watch area. How is that set up? MR. THOMAS: It’s a room on the second floor. It’s four rooms on the second floor. Single rooms. Big glass. Door. Food slot. Same on the other side. There are two EFTA00113655

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 w ~] adjoining doors. It has a shower there. So like if you have to shower then there’s a closet. MR. a : Is psychology near there? MR. THOMAS: The psychology is down the hall. MR. a : Also on the second floor? MR. THOMAS: Also on the second floor. MR. a : So would they - do you believe that they would meet with people that are on suicide watch? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure. Yes. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. MR. a : But you didn’t know? But you just believe. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I believe. I just believe it. I’m sure that they meet with people on the suicide watch. I’m sure. MR. QJ: «So when you’re watching Epstein on July 23rd, did you see a psychologist talk with him at all? MR. THOMAS: That was on the morning watch. But no psychologists is on duty. MR. a: Oh, okay. EFTA00113656

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 MR. THOMAS: -- at that time. 2 MR. a : So you were there from 3 8:00 - You were watching him. 4 MR. THOMAS: From 12 midnight to -- 5 MR. a : 8:00 a.m. 6 MR. THOMAS: -- while I was watching him 7 until, well exactly, from about 1:30 to 8:00 8 a.m. 9 MR. QR: Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: So um. 11 MR. a : Now when inmates though 12 like Epstein he’s on suicide watch and then 13 placed back in the SHU. How soon thereafter 14 are they typically provided a cellmate? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't know. 16 MR. Ee : Is it right away? 17 MR. THOMAS: I’m sure it’s right away. 18 MR. a : Typically? 19 MR. THOMAS: I’m sure it’s -. 20 MR. QJ: So it like you, 21 typically, like is a cellmate already in there 22 when they place him with someone? 23 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. It could be 24 either or. I’m sure that they made certain 25 provisions and stuff to make sure that he was EFTA00113657

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B82 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 put with somebody that he felt comfortable with or whatever the case. MR. a : Do inmates that are on suicide watch and psychological observation. Do they always go from there to the SHU? Or ever into somewhere else? MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? MR. a : So if someone’s on suicide watch or psychological observation. MR. THOMAS: On the second floor. MR. a : On the second floor. When they are released from that, do they always get placed into the SHU or do they go -- MR. THOMAS: No. They can -. MR. a : -- back into get general population? MR. THOMAS: It can be either or. If they have some more SHU time that they have to serve or anything like that they can go back to the SHU. But their SHU time is up and it’s -. I’m assuming -. I/’11 say it’s whatever the psychologists say. If they say that they’re cleared to go to population. They’1ll take them to population. MR. a: Okay. What’s the EFTA00113658

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 difference between suicide watch and psychological observation? MR. THOMAS: Suicide watch, one has a smock and a blanket. And observation they have clothes. MR. a : That’s the only difference? MR. THOMAS: That’s the only difference. We still just watching them out there. There’s no difference. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Or anything like that. Yeah. No difference. You watch them. MR. QJ: Same area, same cell, just what they’re wearing? MR. THOMAS: What they’re - yeah. Same area, same cells, and what they’re wearing. Absolutely. MR. Ee : Okay. And is it your understanding the Epstein was both on suicide watch and psychological observation? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was on psychological. I knew when I watched him he was on suicide watch at that time. EFTA00113659

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't. Maybe he was. I don't know. MR. a : Did any other inmates that were in the SHU when you were working in the SHU in July and August 2019. Were any of them also people that were on suicide watch or psychological observation? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : No? Would that be on that hotlist if they were? MR. THOMAS: It probably would be. I don't know if it’s something that other inmates. I couldn’t tell you there was 5X suicides or that. I couldn’t tell you. MR. a : Okay. Are there any other additional requirements for people to come off of suicide watch or psychological observation, aside from having a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Do they have to get -? Do you have to pay closer attention to them? MR. THOMAS: I’m -. I don't think so. I’d just say that everything is still standard practice. MR. a: Okay. So when you’re EFTA00113660

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 working in the SHU, do you treat everybody the same? Or certain people -? MR. THOMAS: No. I treat everybody the MR. a : So you don't look after certain people more than others? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't pay more attention to one person or another. MR. QR: Okay. MR. THOMAS: No. You look after everyone the same. MR. a : And is that the case with Epstein as well? You weren’t informed like hey, make sure you’re paying more attention to him? He’s your priority. MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : So no one ever said -- MR. THOMAS: No. absolutely not. MR. Ee : -- he’s the priority inmate? Okay. And I may have asked you this, so I apologize if it’s repetitive. MR. THOMAS: It’s all right. MR. a : But was Epstein required to have a cellmate during his stay in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. EFTA00113661

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B86 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : You just don't know. MR. THOMAS: I don't know exactly, but I don't know. I don't know. But I would say if he was previous suicide, yeah, he was probably required to have an inmate. MR. a : Are you aware that the staff psychologist every issued a requirement for him to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No. I’m not. I don't know. MR. a : So did anyone, including the psychologist, peers, supervisors, or others ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Do you have that email? MR. a: Let me see. Is there one more stack? MR. a : So this is an email from that | 7 from psychology. It says, to suicide watch psychological observation update, 7:30, 2019. Do you know if you ever received this email? It says, “Inmate Epstein is being taken off psych observation and needs to be housed with an appropriate cellmate.” Do you remember ever receiving that? EFTA00113662

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Um. Usually they send this out to everybody like it’s sent out to everybody but I don't remember seeing it. I’m sure if it was sent out to all staff, I’m sure it got to me. But I don't remember seeing it. MR. a : No. And I’m not saying that you received it. I’m just asking if you had received it. Like either by forward. Did anyone ever forward this email to you? Or did anybody ever -? Or did you ever see it? MR. THOMAS: No. My name’s not on here. MR. a : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No, I know. Your name isn’t on there. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : You’re right. That’s why I’m just asking if anyone ever forwarded that on to you? MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. Hm-mm. MR. Ee : And. Okay. Do any of these names that are on here -. Especially toward the bottom here. Any of these names people that would worked in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: It could be a bunch of these people that worked in the SHU. I don't know specifically who works in the SHU. EFTA00113663

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 MR. Ee : Okay. ut because you ty 2 weren’t on a regular SHU schedule, you may not 3 have -? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 5 MR. a : They may not hav 6 forwarded -- 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, that’s the chaplain. wo co oO =] | Oo ! oO rt rh x ny] ct ot y Oo ct 7] ° o Me B ie) n = ct a o 10 chaplain 11 MR. Ee : That’s okay. But you 2 never -. None of these people ever forwarded 3 this to you 4 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I -. 15 MR a : No one ever sent it? 16 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 7 MR. ae : Okay. Just because we 8 talked about it, do you mind just initialing it 9 and dating it? Thank you, sir. 20 MR I wrote '20, so I initialed 21 over it. I put the one. Because I initialed 22 over it. When writing it. 23 MR. QM: what’s this? 24 MR. THOMAS: I put 20. 25 MR. ae: This said 19. Yeah. EFTA00113664

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LIMITED w oO co wo i=) w oO co oO OFFICIAL USE MR. THOMAS: No. I put 20, so I put the one and I put my initials over it. That’s his initials. Got it. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I didn’t. MR. a : That he thought because it kind of looks (Indiscernible *01:06:36) MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. MR. THOMAS: No. No. Alright. Thanks. Son one ever informed you that even -. you needed to keep a MR. THOMAS: I mean I’m not a custody -. that you’re actually in the SHU -- Sure. I’m not a -. I didn’t know during yo times MR. THOMAS: Oh. -- people talking about oo ite) ur EFTA00113665

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LIMITED ies) co co OFFICIAL USE 90 MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : I’m in at midnight. MR. QJ: Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just the people because you’re always with at least one other person. Right? MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. Yes. MR. a : But that other person, er had this -- you ne MR. THOMAS: Nah, I don't recall. MR. Do you recall who the MCC warden in July and August 2019 was? MR. THOMAS: I can’t name, but -. vn. : ts it a MR. I was about to say MR. THOMAS: But you said the warden. EFTA00113666

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. a : Okay. Good. What 4 communications do you have with the MCC warden 5 with regarding to Epstein being housed within 6 the MCC? ~] MR. THOMAS: I don't recall any. ‘ 8 MR. QR: None? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 MR. a : So I’m going to go 11 through just a couple names. And the reason 2 why I’m going to ask the same questions. And 3 the intention is not to be repetitive, but for 4 you to specifically think -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Just -. 16 MR. Ee : -- these people to just 7 see if that helps let you recall. 8 MR. THOMAS: Jog something. 9 MR. Ee : Yeah. You know so you 20 can visualize that person. 21 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 22 MR. ae : So did the warden ever 23 provide you with special instructions with 24 Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I recall. EFTA00113667

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : Okay. Did the warden ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate while housed at the MCC or assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I recall. MR. a : Did the warden ever visit the SHU during Epstein’s stay at the MCC? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You don't know because you weren’t there during the days? Does the warden typically just work during the day watch? MR. THOMAS: No. I actually had an overtime shift with the warden sometime when he helped out with the -. He worked the SHU with me one time. But I know -. MR. ae : When did he do that? MR. THOMAS: I can’t recall. MR. Ee : Would it have been like in the July or August of 2019? MR. THOMAS: Nah, this was a long time MR. a : Okay. And that -- MR. THOMAS: A long time ago. MR. a: -- same warden? EFTA00113668

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ite] ot) 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That same warden. 2 MR. a : Okay. Do you recall any that you were in the SHU during July and WwW ct b- 3 @ ifs) 4 August during Epstein’s stay that the warden wi b A P- ct oO jon 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I’m on morning watch. 7 MR. QJ: «Right. That’s what I 8 meant. Because you had said that sometimes he 9 did though. 10 MR Yeah 1 MR. QJ: Okay. But not 3 my time. No. 4 know if the warden 5 his stay here at 16 7 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. Lee) 5 Who were the MCC 9 associate wardens in August 2019? b4 fAS: And - honestly I can’t 25 remember the other one. EFTA00113669

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 MR. QJ: Okay. vic 2 fF ever inform you about -? No. 4 MR. a : Talk to you about ies) i 5 Okay. Did any AWs or associate 6 No? ies) i Hed = KR b Q a + oO AJ A communications have with AWs, including Epstein being ive) None. 5 MR. QM: -- within the mec. What AWs did you communicate with and how were oO those communications conducted? Did you ever fos) ie] Pp if a is n 7) fu 5 het ct a Pp 3 iQ = bh rt ian AWs? Did you ever ) hem 20 is your day going? 21 MR. ae : Yeah. But not like 22 sitting down talking about different inmates or 23 24 25 Alright. And did EFTA00113670

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LIMITED ies) fos) OFFICIAL USE w wi Ws ever provide you with any information with regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: nd dia Epstein was required to have a cellmate? uding ever tell you that SHU while you were in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. with Epstein during his stay at MCC? Did any AW ever meet MR. THOMAS: I don't know. captain in July and August of 2019? Okay. Who was the MCC MR. THOMAS: I see his face but I can’t n ee his face. There you go. remember his name. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 13) 7) oO un EFTA00113671

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. QJ: Okay.) what communications did you have with Captain | with regarding to Epstein being housed --? MR. THOMAS: None. MR. QM: -- sat the MCC. None? Would you have any communications with the captain? MR. THOMAS: No. Passing by. MR. a : Just hello and -. MR. THOMAS: Hello and what’s going on and MR. MITCHELL: Right there. MR. THOMAS: Oh. MR. ae : And -. Um. We’ll just have like three more questions and then we’ll take a break. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : Did the captain ever provide you with special instructions with regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : Did the captain ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate MR. THOM S: No. ie] EFTA00113672

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. Ee : -- while housed at MCC or ies) i THOMAS: No. 4 MR. a : Did the captain ever t w it] w visit the SHU during Epstein’s y at the 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 7 MR. a : Did the captain ever -? 8 But not while you were in the SHU? Not while I was in SHU. No. 10 MR. a : Did the captain ever 11 meeting with Epstein during his stay at the wo F N ive) a) THOMAS: I don't know. 4 MR. QM: Not to -. R. a: Yep. Absolutely. Alright. You want to take a break now? And I - I don't know. t oO a Lee) 5 MITCHELL: Just one quick one. Yes. 9 MR. Ee : Yeah, absolutely. It is currently 11:18 a.m. This is Senior Special 21 Agent [RS GS anc 1 am pausing the 22 recording. [Whereupon, the above-entitled 23 matter went off the record and went back on the 24 record. ] This is Senior Special Agent | 25 PF and we’re resuming the interview EFTA00113673

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with Mr. Thomas. Everyone is present. I should also note that another attorney for Mr. Thomas is on the telephone. I believe that is Montel Figgins. Is that correct? MR. FIGGINS: That’s correct. MR. a : Okay. Great. Mr. Thomas, I just want to remind you, this is a voluntary interview. You are under oath. And we will resume. Any questions -- MR. THOMAS: Nope. MR. a : -- before we start? MR. THOMAS: Nope. MR. a : Alright. So the next section is regarding supervisors on August 9th and August 10th. Again, we know you don't work on August 9th, during the day. MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. MR. a : At least. You did work in the early morning hours. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Some of these questions then you might not know the answers to. Who were the MCC supervisors on duty with responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 2019? I’11 actually provide you EFTA00113674

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with this duty agent roster to help. So this is an MCC New York daily assignment roster for August - Friday August 9, 2019. And this is one for -- MR. THOMAS: The 10th. MR. a : -- Saturday, August 10, 2019. So -. MR. THOMAS: What’s your question? MR. a : So who were the MCC supervisors on duty with the responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 2019? So who would have -? Is it true that the SHU lieutenant -? If the SHU lieutenant is out of the office. MR. MITCHELL: Oh, I’m sorry. Can we do one question at a time? Because it just -. You jumped to the second and he didn’t answer it. MR. Ee : Well it’s because I wanted to explain that the SHU lieutenant was out. MR. MITCHELL: Okay. MR. a : So who then would be responsible to oversee the SHU if the SHU lieutenant is out? EFTA00113675

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. THOMAS: I - whoa. If the SHU 2 lieutenant is out? Who would be responsible? ies) I don't -. 4 MR. a : Would it be the ops or 5 activities lieutenant? 6 MR. THOMAS: For my shift or for the shift that I was on that time would be -. 8 MR. a : Mm-hmm. Just what’s your 9 understanding? So for August 9th, who would be 10 like for insta - 11 MR. THOMAS: So -. 2 MR. a : And we can start from 3 when you worked on August 9th. 4 (Indiscernible 5 16 MR. Ee : Who on August 93th would 7 have been responsible for overseeing the SHU if 8 the SHU lieutenant is not there? 9 I guess the operations 20 22 say? 23 MR Oh. Um, Sg. No w wu Mh ct oO ai gets off. It looks like EFTA00113676

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 w ~] rt her duty was from I think that they were a little different. But it shows on this that it rt was midnight to 8:00 w -m. I believe they actually worked 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. But after she would leave at either 6:00 a.m. or 8:00 a.m. Who would then become the person with oversight of the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I guess. It’s either -. MR. a : Would it be || or MR. THOMAS: It would be both [J and | that’s operations and the activities lieutenant. MR. ae : Okay. And then after them would it be | and a: MR. THOMAS: Oh. Yes. MR. ae : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Well actually. Well yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. MR. QJ: So is that how it works? These people up here, these are the operations lieutenant or activities lieutenant would have oversight of the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Well if I’m not mistaken -. It I’m not mistaken, I think, as I said, the EFTA00113677

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 captain is the SHU’s house. So I would say -. Well direct supervisor would be the -. MR. a : Yeah, like the first line supervisor. MR. THOMAS: First line super would be the operations lieutenant and activities lieutenant. MR. a : Okay. And would it be -- MR. THOMAS: That goes for J -. MR. a : -- one or the other? Would it be typically -? MR. THOMAS: Well operations are head of the whole building and then -. MR. QJ: So if you had an issue in the SHU, who would you contact? MR. THOMAS: The operations lieutenant. MR. ae : Not the activities lieutenant? MR. THOMAS: Well activities doesn’t come in until 6:00 in the morning. MR. a : Sure. So if the activities lieutenant and the operations lieutenant are both present, and there was -. I know you weren’t working this date during that time. But if someone, when they’re both EFTA00113678

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 on duty, who would be contacted? Activities or operations? Or is it either? MR. THOMAS: I - you would just say whatever SHU needed. You say operations. You Say operations . It really depends on the situation. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: Depends on the situation whether you would call the activities or the operations but 9 out of ten times mostly with this you call operations. MR. a : And does the activities lieutenant sit in operations? MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? MR. a : So how does that work? So for instance, if you -- MR. THOMAS: They can be anywhere in the building. MR. Ee : -- call operations. Are those two individuals together -- MR. THOMAS: No. They’re -- MR. a : -- typically? MR. THOMAS: -- normally not together. They can be anywhere in the building. MR. a: So would you ever call on 103 EFTA00113679

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 104 n say activities. MR. THOMAS: There could be an instance where you call and say activities when you don't want to bother -. It depends like I said D depending on the situation. Okay. And on your - w you were in the SHU on who would have been - who would have had oversight as lant on Aug MR. MR. And then I think that she left at 6:00 a.m. Who would wu have then taken over respi Would it have been i: MR. THC -? And I don't know exactly mz. a. a-. Um, I -. sibility? Who is lieutenant to pronounce his name, but No-no-no. Not on this. Not looking at this. EFTA00113680

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 ~] wo 10 11 Do you know who he is? Lieutenant a: MR. THOMAS: Um. MR. Lieutenant ia. MR. THOMAS: He’s a lieutenant at MCC. I think he’s might be just the quarterly SHU lieutenant I guess. MR. He was the SHU lieutenant? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Okay. Do you know if he was the SHU lieutenant in August of 2019? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I’m sure - I don't know. MR. ae : So that’s not something that you would know -- MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. MR. -- during the day -. MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. MR. : So that -? MR. THOMAS: I don’t know. a) So that’s nothing -? MR. THOMAS: But it’s like from the 3 co) =] re they posted it, it’s probably somewhere on the roster somewhere. But I mean if he say he’s the SHU lieutenant, he’s the SHU EFTA00113681

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 lieutenant. I don’t -. If he was that SHU lieutenant. If it was his quarter to have it, then he’s the SHU lieutenant. MR. a : Okay. Do you know if he was off on August 9, 2019? MR. THOMAS: I don't know (Indiscernible *01:17:42) MR. a : You don't know. Sure. Absolutely. Did you have any communications with Lieutenant || with regard to Epstein being housed within the MCC? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: «ors in the suv? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? No - any kind of emails or any kind of communication? When I say communication, I mean verbal -- MR. THOMAS: Oh. MR. Ee : -- emails, anything? MR. THOMAS: Um, not that I know of. No. Not -. I can’t recall any. MR. ae : Okay. So did Lieutenant | | ever provide you with any kind of special instructions with regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. 106 EFTA00113682

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. Ee : Did Lieutenant || every 2 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 3 cellmate when he was assigned to the SHU? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. a : Do you know who is 6 Operations Lieutenant | | og I guess he 7 was the operations lieutenant. 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 MR. a : Is he regularly the 10 operations lieutenant? 11 MR. THOMAS: It - it -. 2 MR. a : At that time? 3 MR. THOMAS: It varies. You know it’s a 4 rotating shift, so they could have switched 15 shifts at that time. I don't -. It varies. 16 It varies 7 MR. ae : Okay. So according to 8 this August 9th 9 MR. THOMAS: This says he comes in at - 20 is it 6:00 and 8:00 - 8:00 to 4:00 or 7:00 21 to 10:00, whichever one. 22 MR. QJ: okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Well it says 8:00, so it 24 would be 8:00 to 4:00. 25 MR. a : Okay. I think that, from EFTA00113683

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 w ~] ive) my understanding, some of the lieutenants were actually working two hours before. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QJ: So Is think he was actually 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Although it’s confusing on this, by looking at the roster. So when he was on, would have he been responsible for overall oversight of the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Yes. If he was operations lieutenant. Yeah. MR. Ee : Okay. Did you have any communications with | in regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QM: Or the suv? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : No? So not even any kind of - not even talking about Epstein, with anything to do with your responsibilities in the SHU - with JP MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Okay. And again, I’m going to say these names just to try to change things around. MR. THOMAS: Fine. MR. QM: bid Lieutenant J EFTA00113684

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 w ~] wo 10 11 every provide you with special instructions with regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Did Lieutenant | ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate while he was assigned to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Who is Lieutenant || a. | ti‘(‘<‘ You don't even know? MR. THOMAS: He just started there I think. I want to say he just started there. (Indiscernible *01:19:52) just a transfer now. He probably was there maybe two months. I think if I -. I vaguely remember him. MR. THOMAS: Do you know if he had any involvement or oversight of the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I probably spoke to him twice. MR. Ee : Twice? And do you know what those communications entailed? MR. THOMAS: Time (Indiscernible *01:20:01) MR. a : Anything to do with Epstein? MR. THOMAS: Or QR. EFTA00113685

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. Ee : Or operations in the SHU? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. a : No? Never provided you 4 any special instructions with Epstein. 5 MR. THOMAS: No. He never provided you special instructions with Epstein. 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. a : Never told you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? wo i=) MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. Ee : Okay. What about Senior N ive) = " Uh-huh. Do I know her? Yes. if you look at this. It looks like she was the gust 9th oO activities lieutenant -- Lee) 5 THOMAS: Mm-hmm. -- from what appears to to 10:00 p.m. Obviously 21 you weren’t -- 22 MR. THOMAS: I’m not -. 23 MR. a : -- there at that time. Correct? ho wi MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. No EFTA00113686

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 MR. QJ: | Alright. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn’t there. 3 MR. a : You weren’t there. 4 Correct. At any time did you have any 5 communications with SOS P| as far as 6 Epstein? 7 MR. THOMAS: Nope. MR. a : Did she ever give you any special instructions with Epstein? co wo t i=) a THOMAS: No. 11 MR. Ee : Did she ever tell you 2 that Epstein was required the have a cellmate? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. ae : While assigned to the 15 SHU? No? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. ae : Now we’re going to talk 8 to the staff members in the SHU on August 10th 9 when you were there. 20 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 21 MR. QJ: Alright. what Bop 22 employees worked in the SHU on August 10, 2019 23 from approximately 1200 a.m. to 6:30 a.m.? 24 MR. THOMAS: Um, Ms. Noel. 25 MR. a : And yourself? EFTA00113687

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. THOMAS: And myself. MR. a : Okay. And what was your role in the SHU on August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2. She was SHU l. MR. a : And what does that mean? MR. THOMAS: It just means that it’s just where you was assigned. It’s just where I was assigned. I was assigned there for overtime. f She was assigned there for overtime. MR. a : Is there a difference between SHU 1 and SHU 2 though? Like different responsibilities? MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t - you have to read the post orders. I couldn’t tell you. MR. THOMAS: -- exactly what the -. MR. ae : Is there a hierarchy? MR. THOMAS: I want -. It depends. I mean it really, really depends. That’s definitely hard to explain because is there a hierarchy? No. MR. ae : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Remember because she has -. It’s no hierarchy. MR. a: Is the person with the EFTA00113688

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 most experience in the BOP in command? Or how 2 does that work? When you’re in there with 3 another person. There’s only two of you. Is 4 there someone that’s kind of in charge? 5 MR. THOMAS: I’m going to say -. They’re 6 going to say SHU -. How it is the BOP. How it 7 is at the jail. They say SHU 1 is in charge. 8 MR. a : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: But then they -. with SHU 1 10 or somebody with more time. Like if I have 11 more time than SHU 1. How are you going to be 12 in charge when you have more time? It depends. 13 But then again, I’m non-custody. So it’s all 14 different dynamics when it comes to that. 15 MR. a : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But they will say SHU 1 is 17 usually in charge. If you bid for SHU 1-. If 18 you did a bid, they’1l say SHU 1 is in charge 19 of the SHU. 20 MR. a : Okay. 21 MR. THOMAS: But -. 22 MR. a : And you were SHU 2 that 23 day? 24 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2 that day. Yes. 25 MR. a: Okay. But because you EFTA00113689

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 had seniority, is that -? MR. THOMAS: It doesn’t play out like that. It doesn’t play like that. In a black and white sense, it doesn’t play out like that. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: You’re both equally responsible because she’s SHU 2 and I’m SHU 2. I mean it just - it doesn’t - and on paper it plays out that she’s SHU 1. She’s in charge and I’m SHU 2, but it really doesn’t play out like that. MR. a : So you’re both serving the same roles? MR. THOMAS: Were both serving the same roles, especially on morning watch. We’re both doing the same thing -- MR. ae : Okay. MR. THOMAS: -- were both serving the same. MR. a : Same duties a responsibilities. MR. THOMAS: Same duties and responsibilities. Well because you can’t do one thing without the other. So. MR. a: Okay. Because pretty EFTA00113690

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LIMITED ies) co co OFFICIAL USE much ev a. MR. MR. replace h If MR. He’s both fund like a.m.? And did you replac i) THOMAS: Did you im at 12:00 aT THOMAS: I can’t remember if they said it was Okay. I guess. U couldn’t remember THOM p 0 a oO w non-custo So we work - how I’m trust fund. He’s a material handler spe - like me, so I’1l probably 7:24:10). I couldn’t EFTA00113691

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LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE our exact communication when I started. I probably said what’s up. MR. a : Do you remember -- MR. THOMAS: Smacked him on the back of the head. MR. a : - any kind of conversations? MR. THOMAS: No. I really don't remember. MR. a : Okay. Did you speak with him at all with regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Anything to do with like Reyes leaving and Epstein being alone? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? What conversations did you have with Noel during your shift with regard to Epstein? On August 10th. MR. THOMAS: Uh, none. MR. Ee : You don't remember talking about him? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember talking about him. MR. a : Do you recall if anyone else was present at any time at all in the SHU on August 10, 2019? Between the hours of 12:00 116 EFTA00113692

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 117 a.m. and 6:33 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Um.... I’m sure a lieutenant came up. I couldn’t tell you when. I’m sure the lieutenant came up once or I’m sure the lieutenant came up. MR. a : And who would have been the lieutenant who would come up? Uh, Lieutenant a . remember that interaction at all? When the lieutenant came up? MR. THOM No. Not really. MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. Would have that been set particular time that she had to be there by 3:00 or 2:00 or 1:00 - anything like that. But I’m sure during the course of the day, during the course of the night, lieutenant fe came by SHU. EFTA00113693

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: She always walks by. She’s (Indiscernible *01:25:39) walk. MR. a : Do you remember if any - another CO came by maybe around like 5:30 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Um.... It’s supposed to be another CO that comes on at 6:00 to 2:00. I don't recall them ever coming up. It says a. But it’s, as you can see, it’s a 6:00 to 2:00 post. But I don't. Around 5:00, I don't remember any other -. I don't remember any other CO coming in. MR. a : Okay. What about like a breakfast cart? Who would provide that? How would that be done? MR. THOMAS: Well the breakfast cart that they push it into the hallway. I wouldn’t see the person down in food service that -. I mean they push down the hallway and ring the bell. And I don't remember who brought the food cart up. But the food cart came up and we seen in through our peripherals outside the hallway. MR. a : And then someone -. MR. THOMAS: It’s through a double door. MR. a : And then you go and you get it? EFTA00113694

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Then we go and retrieve it and we bring it inside the SHU. Yes. MR. a : And do you remember who it was that actually retrieved it that morning? MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember. I think she did, I did. I don't know. I don't remember exactly who did it. MR. a : Okay. So the only person that you remember that entered the SHU was MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. What was her purpose for visiting the SHU on August 10th? MR. THOMAS: She visited all the housing units. Operations lieutenant she walks around the building throughout the night. MR. a : Part of her duties and responsibilities? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Part of her duties. Yes. MR. a : Okay. Can you just briefly explain what’s the process of entering and exiting the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Um.... Wow, I can’t even EFTA00113695

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 remember the door. Um. You call for the door. It’s the 20. You call for the door to be opened. I can’t remember the exact number of the door. You call for the door to be opened. They ring the bell. You call for the door to be opened. Then you have an inner door that’s locked. You unlock that - you call for the person. The person comes in. If it’s a warden or anything like that, it’s usually a book that they have to sign saying that there entered into - that they entered in or whatever the case may be. They enter in. And then you open the door. MR. QJ: Okay. So you initially said that they call. Who? MR. THOMAS: Well one of the staff members inside call for the door. MR. a : Okay. So -. MR. THOMAS: So me or Noel had to call for the door to come in. MR. a : So someone comes at the outer door the first door someone’s got to go through. They call you guys in the SHU. MR. THOMAS: No. They ring the bell. MR. a: They ring the bell? EFTA00113696

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: If the outer door -. It’s -. The outer door, whichever number it is, the outer door. You ring the bell. It signals somebody’s at the door. You look and you see. I see. I say can I get your name, sir? You see whoever it is. You call for the door. Look to see if the (Indiscernible *01:28:05) I see JMNM covering at the door. I bring - I call for the door. He comes in the door. Then there’s another door that’s locked. You unlock that door and then they come in and then you lock that door back. MR. a : So my question is though on the outer door. Who do you call? The control center. MR. THOMAS: Yes. You call the control center. MR. a : Okay. And then does someone from the control center? MR. THOMAS: Looks down it. Well the control center verifies who is at the door and then they open the door. MR. a : Okay. And is there like cameras there? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, there’s a camera in the EFTA00113697

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 w ~] wo 10 11 hallway. MR. a : Okay. Great. So control center allows them in the door first. Do they notify the people in the SHU that someone’s coming in? MR. THOMAS: We notify them that someone is coming in. MR. a : Oh, okay. MR. THOMAS: Because we call for the door. MR. a : So they ring the bell, you call control. MR. THOMAS: Call control center. MR. a : Control then looks -- MR. THOMAS: And opens the door. MR. a : -- and lets somebody in. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. ae : Okay. And then they come to that. And then does control center have any involvement with them when you said you unlock the door? MR. THOMAS: No. Then it’s another key for another door. The inner door. MR. a : Okay. And is it just the people that are in the SHU that can allow someone to enter and exit? EFTA00113698

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: For that inner door? Yes. MR. a : Okay. And who was it -? How are the keys worked? Who maintains control of those keys? MR. THOMAS: Um, for the morning watch shift. There’s one control key and usually the number one person holds it. It’s the key that never leaves the thing. I can’t remember exactly what keys are on there. MR. a : When you say on there. Where are they maintained? MR. THOMAS: They’re maintained down in the control center. MR. QJ: But: are they like hung up somewhere? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. They’re hung up on like a dashboard that says -. MR. a : The control. Wait. I’m sorry. So I’m not confused. There’s a key that you guys utilize to open the door that’s in the control center. MR. THOMAS: Yes. That utilizes. Well the control center has the master keys for all the doors. MR. a: I’m sorry. But the EFTA00113699

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 control center opens that outer door. And then the inner door. Doesn’t the people that are assigned to the SHU have - use a key to -? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That’s the master key that never leaves the SHU. MR. a : Okay. So that’s the key I’m talking about. Where is that key maintained? You said the SHU -? MR. THOMAS: Usually the number one on SHU will -. MR. a : Like on their person? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. On the person. Usually SHU 1 holds that on the person the whole time. MR. a : Okay. So it’s not hung up somewhere. MR. THOMAS: No. It’s not hung up somewhere. The SHU 1 holds that on them at all times. MR. a : Okay. And do you recall on August 9th it was Noel -? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure. I’m sure she had it. I’m sure she had it. MR. a : It was Noel then? Noel - EFTA00113700

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Because I had the um, the oh! Door keys and cuff key. Or if I had my cuff key. MR. a : So if you have the door keys and the cuff keys, usually the other person is the one that has the outer key? MR. THOMAS: Yes. We have - MR. a : Or the (Indiscernible *01:30:16) MR. THOMAS: It rotates. During the course of the day it can’t rotate or anything like that. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: When during the day when like somebody’s feeding or somebody’s doing this and you -. That person would take this key I’m going to go feed this row or I’m about to go do this. So if somebody’s doing law library. It can rotate. But during the course of the night, usually SHU 1 has one key and then I come up with the -. I eventually grab another key. MR. a : Okay. So on August 10th you said you only recall ee . Do you recall who allowed her to enter? EFTA00113701

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LIMITED OFFICIAL ies) io ive) oO co MR. MR authori USE 12 pproach Epstein’s a : Who used the key? THOMAS: I don't remember THOMAS: No-no. I don't remember who a : And she was an authorized THOMAS: Who? zed visitor? Yes. Yes. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't You don't recall? Do you a EFTA00113702

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 ~] wo 10 11 with regard to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: She didn he doing or anything like that? ~ cr ask like how’s MR. THOMAS: No. I don't. MR. a : And then who would have allowed her to exit the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Me or either me or Noel. MR. a : Okay. And is it the same process? You would have to use a key to open it? MR. THOMAS: You have to use a key to open the inner door. Then you open the inner door, secure the inner door, and then you call the control center to pop the outer door. MR. a : And then do you recall -- MR. THOMAS: I don't recall who -. MR. QJ: | -- how long she was in there? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. MR. a : But she was the -- EFTA00113703

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ie) o Operations lieutenant. -- supervisor -? She was Ww ct 3 ® operations lieutenant -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Lieutenant (Indiscernible Ww * Bp Ww na w re was the supervisor in the SHU on 8 from 12:00 a.m. until-? wo F She was the - I wouldn’t say i=) supervisor -. Well was supervising the 11 building on August 10th. Yes. ibilities N Fs) 3 4 Responsibilities for SHU and 5 responsibilities of the institution. t oO Fs 7 other conversations 8 your shift on August No. 20 MR. QJ: | 8y phone call or email or 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm. No. No ion) id 24 any time ever provide you with special 25 instructions with regard to Epstein? EFTA00113704

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ie) wo 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. a : And again, never told you was required to have a cellmate? Ww ct oS fy rt a i) 4 MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : It didn’t come up the 6 fact that Reye w a i) left the day before and Epstein was without one? oO aw u Gc U fi That was ist not i=) communicated? How about Lieutenant | 11 WM?) Who is that? MR. THOMAS: A lieutenant at MCC. N Was -? Did Lieutenant ive) Fs) 5 approximately 6:00 a.m.? Are you able to tell 16 from looking at this roster? 7 MR. THOMAS: Well this one says he came in 8 at 8:00 to 4:00 or something, but I -. 9 MR. Ee : Yeah, they were two hours 21 MR. THOM 22 yeah, I remember seeing him. 23 MR. a : Okay. Do you recall 24 having any interactions with Lieutenant | | 25 prior to 6:33 a.m. on August 10, 2019? EFTA00113705

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. a : And did Lieutenant | | 3 visit the SHU at all on August 10, 2019 prior 4 to 6:33 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I remember. 6 MR. a : Okay. And no 7 communications though? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. a : And Lieutenant || 10 didn’t’ provide you with any special 11 instructions with regard to Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. a : And he did not provide 4 you any instructions with regard to Epstein 15 having a cellmate? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. ae : At any time even prior to 8 that? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. QJ: Okay. Did the control 21 center, R&D, or anyone else call the SHU on 22 August 10, 2019 about -? 23 MR. THOMAS: They would be gone by the 24 time I come in. 25 MR. a : All of those people would EFTA00113706

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have been? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : In the control center? MR. THOMAS: No, not the -. The control center would be there, but R&D would be gone. MR. a : Alright. So let’s say I did control center or anyone else call the SHU on August 10, 2019 about Epstein cellmate’s leaving? Or the need for Epstein to have another cellmate assigned? MR. THOMAS: No. That would have been done prior to my shift. MR. a : Okay. But not during your shift? MR. THOMAS: Not during the midnight, no. That would have been done prior. MR. ae : Alright. So being that you’ve been in the BOP since 2017. MR. THOMAS: 2007. MR. a : Sorry, 2007, that’s what I meant. I apologize. In that Epstein was required to have a cellmate, after Reyes left on August 9°, what should have happened? Who should have taken appropriate actions? Can you just kind of walk me through how that process EFTA00113707

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 should have taken place? MR. THOMAS: Um. I mean. By my knowledge, like you said, from being in for work, if he would have left, it would have been communicated to the officers via R&D that somebody had left. MR. a : And how would have -? R&D would have been the first people to notify? MR. THOMAS: Yes. R&D would be -. Yeah. R&D would be the first people to notify that an inmate has been -- MR. a : Released. MR. THOMAS: -- taken off the count. Been released. Taken off the count. MR. a : Okay. And then who would R&D contact? MR. THOMAS: R&D would contact the lieutenant and contact control center. MR. Ee : So R&D would contact both control center and -- MR. THOMAS: And R&D. MR. a : -- the lieutenant? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Would they at all contact the SHU? Or the place where the inmate was EFTA00113708

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 released from? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well R&D would contact the SHU and let them know that somebody had been released. MR. a : So in this case, Reyes was released on August 9th. Should have they called all three? They should have control center -. Or R&D should have contacted looks like Lieutenant a. or potentially mm. as well as control center and the SHU staff? MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world, R&D will call lieutenant’s office, call control, and call the SHU. I’m sure somebody had to call the SHU and let them know that their base count has changed. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Some - one way or another, somebody called control to let them know that the base count has changed. Who did they call? I don’t know, but during that - because the courts close at 8:00. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: At the latest. Yeah. I believe it’s 8:00 p.m. So somebody called and let them know. R&D got the first call that EFTA00113709

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there would be somebody gone off your count. MR. a : Okay. So it wouldn’t be like they called the ops lieutenant and the ops lieutenant would then call the SHU. R&D typically would actually call all three. MR. THOMAS: Usually. But I have been when R&D called all three. I have been here when the control center have called the SHU and let them know. Yo, your base count changed. Such-and-such has been released or such-a-bunch has been moved to a different housing unit. Yeah. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: But usually you get a call either from R&D or control center. MR. Ee : Not the ops lieutenant? MR. THOMAS: Not the -. I mean not -. I’ve been in when the ops lieutenant called, but nah. Not typically the ops lieutenant. MR. a : Alright. So it’s typically control center. MR. THOMAS: Typically your control center or R&D will call and let you know that their base count have changed. MR. a: And you’ve been present EFTA00113710

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 when that’s actually taken place? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I’ve been present when that’s taken place. MR. QJ: tn the suu? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I’ve been present in the SHU when that’s taken place. MR. es : Okay. So how soon after -? So Epstein is required to have a cellmate. How soon after Reyes’ departure should have Epstein been assigned a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: That comes from the SHU lieutenant and from operations and the staff member that had to be there. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. THOMAS: If -. MR. a : So who -? Who had the responsibility to fill Epstein’s cellmate requirement? Who had the responsibility to place Epstein with a new cellmate? MR. THOMAS: I don't know offhand. But -. I don't know offhand who had the responsibility. But it had to come from either the SHU lieutenant. I would say first since he’s a high-profile, I would say from the SHU lieutenant. EFTA00113711

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. And were you -? We touched on this before, but in this specific instance, were -. Well you weren’t there. MR. THOMAS: I wasn’t there. MR. a : So would have you, if you were there, would have you been it - uh, authorized to assign him a new cellmate? MR. THOMAS: If I was there and it came down from higher-up to assign somebody, yes. If I was there, yes. MR. a : So if someone else told you to? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If somebody told me. If the SHU lieutenant told me that oh listen, he needs this and such like that, yeah. Just go like that because he’s high -. I wouldn’t just put somebody in his cell. MR. a : Okay. What about SHU staff that weren’t informed by higher-ups? SHU staff there could have they assigned Epstein with a new cellmate even temporarily? MR. THOMAS: I -. Could they have? I -. MR. a : Authorized. MR. THOMAS: Were they -? MR. a: I mean that theoretically EFTA00113712

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 they could have as in like you can do anything MR. THOMAS: You can do anything you want. MR. THOMAS: But -. MR. a : But were they have been authorized to have -. MR. THOMAS: Nah. Not with a high- profile. No. I don't think they’re authorized. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't know offhand, but I wouldn’t say from my knowledge for being -. I wouldn’t say that they’d be authorized. It would have to come from somebody else. MR. Ee : Okay. So the people that are working in the SHU, what action should have they taken as soon as they were aware that Epstein’s cellmate had left? MR. THOMAS: What are we talking about? MR. a : So if they’re, you know, supposed to be conducting counts. Supposed to be conducting rounds. As soon as they notice, hey, Reyes is gone. Epstein is required to have a cellmate. Is it their responsibility to EFTA00113713

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 notify someone? Hey, get on the phone and call the ops lieutenant, control center, or whomever. MR. THOMAS: I would call. If it were -. I would call somebody. Call somebody and let them know. Operations. Epstein need a cellmate. Or -. MR. QJ: «Right. so the -. MR. THOMAS: SHU lieutenant if he’s there. MR. a : So the SHU lieutenant -- MR. THOMAS: If the first person -. MR. a : -- has gone on leave -. MR. THOMAS: If the SHU lieutenant has gone on leave, call the operations lieutenant. MR. a : Okay. Alright. Now we’re just going to talk a little bit more about rounds and counts. So the cell count. What, officially, what is that? Is it obtaining the official number of the inmates in your housing unit? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And can you just explain the process? You touched on it before, but now can you actually explain like -. So when you’re in the SHU for instance, and you’re EFTA00113714

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: What timeframe? Are we talking about? MR. a : So your timeframe. Let’s talk about when you’re specifically there. You’re there from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. Correct? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : And you were there for both August 9th and August 10th. When should have you conducted counts and how should they have been conducted? MR. THOMAS: How it happens is one officer goes up. You have the door key to the grills - the outside grill. You open the outside grill. One officer walks around, count, verified. Do one count, then the other office go around, count, and then you all combine your numbers at the end. You combine your numbers at the end of each tier. And then you tally up the numbers at the end. Most people write them down on a piece of paper, on your hand, back of a count slip -. It could be a number of different various where people write them down. But one person go arounds count, the next EFTA00113715

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 person go arounds, count. You all say - tell each other your number. I got 15. I got 15. Boom. Then you move on to the next tier. Do the same form for all six tiers. And then you tally up your numbers at the end. MR. a : Okay. So when one staff member is counting the inmates, on each tier -. MR. THOMAS: They’re the one standing at the grill. MR. a : At the grill. And can you just explain what the grill is? MR. THOMAS: It’s just a door. MR. a : Is the door closed or open? MR. THOMAS: Um, typically it’s closed. But some people leave it open. MR. ae : Okay. So one person remains outside of the tier basically at the door. MR. THOMAS: At the door with the key. MR. a : And then one staff member goes around, checks on all the inmates, when - and how do they check on the inmates? MR. THOMAS: They look inside the, and if it’s not covered, they look inside a window - EFTA00113716

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 look inside the glass. I can’t tell you the diameter of it, but you look inside the glass and you see where the inmates are -. MR. a : Now the 12:00 a.m. Is there a count that’s supposed to be done at 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m. -? MR. THOMAS: 12:00, 3:00, and 5:00. MR. QM: 4.11 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: All a.m. Yes. MR. a : And during that time, when you look in the window of the door, what is it you’re supposed to do? MR. THOMAS: You verify flesh. Make sure you can just see somebody - see somebody’s skin. MR. Ee : Do you need to see movement? MR. THOMAS: No because they could be asleep. MR. QJ: | Does that mean you're supposed to hit the door or anything? Make sure -. MR. THOMAS: No. You’re not -. MR. a : See if they’re good? MR. THOMAS: They’re still human beings. 141 EFTA00113717

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 No. They’re sleep is 12:00 midnight. Some are up playing chess. Some are up writing letters. And some are asleep. You don't hit the door to make sure that they’re moving. MR. a : Do you shine a flashlight in? MR. THOMAS: Some have a flashlight. You have -. MR. a : No, do you, as in -. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, I’1l have a flashlight. And just flash and see live breathing skin. They could be under the blanket or anything like that. And -. MR. QJ: Okay. And is the purpose to make-? What is the purpose? MR. THOMAS: To make sure nobody has escaped and see a body inside. MR. a : A live body? MR. THOMAS: We have a live body. MR. a : Okay. A live body. Okay. And that is the process in the SHU. Correct? Like not only in the institution but in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: That’s the process in the institution. EFTA00113718

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : Right. Including the SHU. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And when conducting counts, do COs have to speak with inmates? MR. THOMAS: We don't have to. MR. a : No? Now explain to me - what is a round? So you said you’re -. MR. THOMAS: Um, same process. MR. QM: Same? MR. THOMAS: It’s the same process MR. a : So every 30 minutes you actually have to take a count as well? MR. THOMAS: No you don’t have to take the count. The same process without the count - the counting of numbers. You just walk around and verify somebody is inside. MR. Ee : Just like you said with the count, each one has to go around and see if their numbers match up? Does each -? MR. THOMAS: No you don't have to round and see if the numbers match up. No. You just verify that there’s a body inside the cell. MR. a: But does someone have to EFTA00113719

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 stand at the grill and the other person walk down and have to switch places and do the same thing? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Both ways? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. So it is the same process aside from -. MR. THOMAS: Well aside for the count. Yes. MR. a : Okay. So it’s identical other than you’re actually counting during a count. MR. THOMAS: The same. Exactly. What you just said. MR. Ee : Okay. And with a round, you also don't need to speak with them. You just have to make sure that they’re in there and they’re alive? MR. THOMAS: Just make sure that they’re - yeah for the round. Just make sure that they’re in there. MR. QJ: Okay. um. And at all times do two officers needed to do the rounds and the counts? EFTA00113720

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 Yeah. 1 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to be. 2 MR. QJ: Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to. 4 MR. QJ: and w 6 MR. THOMAS: ~] inside the cell? wo purpose of conducing counts Okay. what is the primary and rounds? To make sure there’s a body no one has escaped and that there’s -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Make sure somebody’s 11 in there. 12 MR. a : Now are cell counts and 3 rounds documented? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MR. QM: ss okay. And do the Cos 16 sign documents after they conduct counts and L7 rounds? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. Ee : Um. Now if you - in this 20 case from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. there’s two 21 people that are assigned to the SHU. Correct? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 actually conduct the rounds. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. And two people have to Correct? And like you said, EFTA00113721

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : So if you and Noel are the only two officers in the SHU, were you both responsible for documenting the round sheets and the count slips? MR. THOMAS: Documenting the count slips. Not the round sheet. Whoever -. I mean it doesn’t -. If I’m not mistaken, there’s no direct responsibility. Whoever wants to do it or do it it’s no assigned or number one has to do this or number one has to do that. The only thing we both have to do is sign a count slip. As far as signing a round sheet and um -. MR. a : So both have to sing the counts. But for the rounds sheets, if one person signs it, are they basically signing for the both of you? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If you’re going to -. They sign it for the both -. Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : So both people are responsible for that signature? For the rounds? MR. THOMAS: Well because I can sign it. She can sign it. It doesn’t make a difference EFTA00113722

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 but -. MR. a : But she’s signing on behalf of the both of you? MR. THOMAS: Sign that the rounds were completed. Yes. MR. a : Okay. And what do you do with the documents after they’re signed? So let’s talk about rounds first. After the round sheets are signed -. Can you just explain to me what a round sheet is? Is it -? Do you keep everything on one document? MR. THOMAS: All for -. Excuse me for -- MR. a : For rounds? MR. THOMAS: -- for all three, shifts are all on one document. Yes. MR. Ee : So starting on each date from 12:00 a.m. to the -. MR. THOMAS: If it says 12:00 a.m., I can’t remember the exact date. It should start from 001 or maybe it’s 1201 and continue on. MR. a : Okay. And what about counts? Sorry, what do you do with those sheets? Sorry. After you documents the 30- minutes -. MR. THOMAS: Uh, they stay there. I guess EFTA00113723

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 they get sent to the lieutenant’s office at the end -. They get sent to the lieutenant’s office at the end of the day. MR. a : At the end of a day not the end of a shift? MR. THOMAS: Not the end of the shift. At the end of the day. MR. a : Okay. And who collects them? MR. THOMAS: Uh, internal usually collects them. MR. a : And what is internal? MR. THOMAS: Um, how do you explain internal? Um. The guy that -. The staff member that rides up the elevator and at the end of the day you collect five security sheets, round sheets, and all - a bunch of different paperwork and you take -. MR. Ee : Is internal like a part of control? MR. THOMAS: No. It’s a person in an elevator. Because inmates can’t ride the elevators by themselves because we’re in a high rise. EFTA00113724

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: So it’s not like a compound center. So the officer on, that usually collects all the rounds sheets if somebody else hasn’t done it, the officer on the elevator will usually do it. MR. THOMAS: Which is called internal. MR. a : Is it a lieutenant or an officer or either or? MR. THOMAS: It’s an officer. It’s an officer. MR. a : It’s an officer? Okay. Um. And do you call anyone with the numbers for either counts or rounds? MR. THOMAS: You call control center. MR. Ee : Do you call them or do they call you? MR. THOMAS: No. You call them. MR. Ee : You call them? And who do you call in the control center? Do you ask for someone? MR. THOMAS: No. You call C&A. I forgot. And don't ask me what C&A stands for. But it’s - because you have a control center and then you have another person -. And if it’s still EFTA00113725

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 two because it used to be one at one time, but you have the control center. And then another person in there um and the person is called C&A. And you would call them and they have a um, a sheet that they call for the count. That they verify for the count. MR. a : Is it just for the counts? Not of the rounds? MR. THOMAS: It’s just for the counts. MR. a : Okay. When you call do you give them a number? MR. THOMAS: Yes. You call and give them a number. MR. QJ: Okay. And is it just one overall number? MR. THOMAS: Yes. It’s one overall number. MR. QM: For the SHU. So it would be -. You wouldn’t say per tier. You would say -. MR. THOMAS: No-no. It’s just one -. No- no. No. They just say one base count of the whole SHU. MR. a : Okay. So on August 10 during your shift, from 12:00 a.m. to EFTA00113726

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 approximately 6:33 a.m., when did you conduct rounds in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: On August 10th? I didn’t. MR. a : No rounds were conducted? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall doing any rounds. MR. a : Okay. And when did you conduct cells during your shift in the SHU on August 10th? MR. THOMAS: Cells....? MR. a : Sorry. Cell counts. My bad. When did you conduct the counts during your shift? MR. THOMAS: I didn’t. MR. a : You didn’t. Okay. And did Noel? MR. THOMAS: I don't -. No. She didn’t. MR. a : No, she didn’t? So no one conducted rounds or counts on August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: No. On my shift, no. MR. ae : Okay. Prior to 6:33 a.m. on August 10, 2019, when was the last time you conducted a round within the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I -. EFTA00113727

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : Would you have conducted rounds on August 9, 2019? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Prior. The day. The day prior. MR. a : And do you recall if you actually conducted any rounds that day? MR. THOMAS: I probably did it for the rounds and then my counts. I probably did a couple there. Yes. MR. a : A couple? MR. THOMAS: I know I did my count. I don't know if I did my -. I don't know how many rounds that I did. MR. ae : Okay. Do you know if you did the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. --? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : -- on August 9th? MR. THOMAS: I would assume I did. Yes. MR. EJ: 9 Assumption? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. ae : So if we go back to the video, will we be able to see that you did those? MR. THOMAS: You’ll see if I did it. Mm- EFTA00113728

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] wo ios) hmm. MR. a : Alright. So you’re belief is that August 9th you did actually conduct those rounds? MR. THOMAS: I would assume I did my counts. Yes. MR. QJ: Okay. Were all the rounds that were document conducted on August 3] wo 9th? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. QJ: No? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Would you guess that they weren’t? MR. THOMAS: No. I would guess that they were before anything else. Before I said that they weren’t, I would guess that they were. Some rounds were probably conducted. MR. Ee : Okay. Some were conducted. So maybe some weren’t? MR. THOMAS: Maybe some wasn’t. I mean nobody’s perfect. MR. a : Okay. Alright. MR. a: (Indiscernible *01:50:01), one person have to do the round. Where’s the EFTA00113729

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 ~] wo 10 11 notebook? MR. THOMAS: That’s the round sheet. Yes. MR. a : Okay. So this is August through No 10, 2019. The round sheets shows 1 and it was only signed up until 6:00, 6:30. MR. a: Different dates. MR. QJ: | the (indiscernible *01:50:21) the tiers. Okay. Can you just explain are these - is this for the overall SHU and the different tiers listed on it? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. Now -. MR. THOMAS: Well this is not -. It’s not -. It’s not labeled at different tiers. No. It’s not labeled at different tiers. Well yes. Each paper is a different tier. MR. ae : Yeah. So like this says Tier G. That one is Tier H. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QJ: Correct? MR. THOMAS: Each thing is a -- MR. QJ: vier o. MR. THOMAS: -- different tier. mR. QJ: tier «. MR. THOMAS: Tier L. EFTA00113730

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 MR. QJ: vier wt. 2 MR. THOMAS: And -. 3 MR. a : That’s a different count. uw wi 4 Okay. So these are what’s signed after a round 5 is conducted? Oo MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. a : Alright. And these were ie] fu Bb bh | | 9 MR. THOMAS: All -. 10 MR. a : -- signed but none were 11 actually conducted? Is that correct? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. a : Okay. Are any of these 4 signatures actually yours? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. Ee : Okay. So whose 7 signatures are - whose initials are these? 8 MR. THOMAS: It’s Noel’s. 9 MR. Ee : Alright. But as you 20 mentioned before, you are both actually 21 responsible for signing? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. We’re not both 23 responsible -- 24 MR. a : I know, but responsible 25 for -- EFTA00113731

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: -- for signing. MR. a : -- conducting them. MR. THOMAS: Both are supposed to be conducting, but yeah. Both are responsible for conducting. MR. a : Okay. So why didn’t you guys conduct the rounds? MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t tell you. I was tired that day. As you can see by the paper, I do a lot of overtime which is -. I was just tired. Just exhausted that day. MR. a : Um. Alright. Can you just initial and date this? Thank you, sir. Um, and you said that you also didn’t conduct any of the cell counts on the SHU on August 10, 2019. Correct? MR. THOMAS: Cell counts. What do you mean cell counts? MR. Ee : The counts, so that was the rounds. These are the counts. MR. THOMAS: Counts. Yes. MR. a : Sorry. The inmate counts. I don't know why I -somebody wrote -. Okay. So the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., the 5:00 a.m. None of them were conducted? EFTA00113732

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Um. Are these the three where they’re -. Yep. Can you just tell me what it is we’re looking at here? It looks like this is the overall 12:00 a.m. -. MR. THOMAS: Institution count. Yes. MR. es : So this is the institution count? And this is the - for all three of those counts - 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. Awesome. MR. MITCHELL: And the number doesn’t change? Or anything? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Alright. So (Indiscernible *01:53:06) A2, B2.... So is that the time of the count? MR. THOMAS: No. That’s not the time of the counts on either one of them. No. That’s not the time of the counts. MULTIPLE INDIVIDUALS: [Indiscernible *01:53:25 to *01:53:30] MR. a : Look at the bottom. MR. THOMAS: Yeah, the time when it was EFTA00113733

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 w ~] wo 10 11 printed and the time it was printed. MR. QM: (indiscernible *01:53:37) at the top and at the bottom is the time of the count. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. What time -? MR. a : The first one was at 12:49 was when it would have been cleared? Is MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : And then this one would have been at 3:00, it looks like -- MR. THOMAS: 3:24. MR. a : -- 3:24. I don't know what the 3:19 on here means. MR. THOMAS: It means good verbal. GV means good verbal. MR. ae : Oh, okay. So good verbal MR. THOMAS: Clear counted. Yeah. MR. QJ: nd the next one was 5:30 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Okay. Alright. Awesome. Um. So that’s the overall count. And let’s -. Can you just tell me what each of -? What are EFTA00113734

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] uw \o these pages? MR. THOMAS: That’s just for - the hospital which is the suicide room. MR. a : So these -. MR. THOMAS: That means these three inmates were out of their cells. They were down at the suicide room. MR. QM: Okay. MR. THOMAS: I mean those four inmates. MR. a : And what about this? What’s that? MR. THOMAS: That’s just the paperwork that’s in the computer system saying that they were taken from one place to another. MR. QJ: okay. MR. THOMAS: They were taken from their cells to the hospital. MR. a : Okay. And are these the actual count slips? MR. THOMAS: These are actual count slips. MR. a : Alright. Can you find which count slips were the ones from the SHU on August 10th? MR. THOMAS: It would say ZA. MR. QJ: 1 think it might be the EFTA00113735

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 w ~] wo 10 11 next page. Okay. So that’s ZA. The very last page. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And whose signatures are on those? MR. THOMAS: Mine and Noel’s. MR. a : You and Noel. Okay. And you actually did sign that? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And it says 8/10/19. And what does the time say there? MR. THOMAS: 12:01. MR. a : Who would have filled that part out? MR. THOMAS: Um, the -. MR. Ee : Can you tell by the -? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That looks like my handwriting. MR. Ee : So your handwriting would have filled that out? Alright. And did you have conversations with Noel at that time? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall any conversations with her. MR. a : You don't recall? So was it like hey, we’re tired, let’s just fill this EFTA00113736

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 w ~] wo 10 11 out? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. It could have been. I don't recall saying that. But it could have been something to that nature. MR. a : Alright. Can you - so what number do you have on there? MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? MR. a : What’s that count? MR. THOMAS: 73. MR. a : Can you look at the first page? And see where it says ZA? What number is on there? MR. THOMAS: 72. MR. ae : Do you remember having any conversations with control center or the ops lieutenant about the fact that those numbers are different? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : So do you remember -? Were you the one who called that number in that night? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. a : You don't remember? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. a: You don't remember -? EFTA00113737

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 162 And I only say this just because of everything that’s surrounding this. These were the three counts prior and obviously -- MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. QM: «s -- this is kind of the reason for us interviewing you. MR. THOMAS: But then also, if -. MR. a : DO you remember if - it says here. You can look at the next -. So. MR. THOMAS: No-no. I’m just saying somebody -. MR. QM: «ss this is za. What does that number say? MR. THOMAS: 72. MR. a : Whose handwriting is MR. THOMAS: This one is mine. That’s mine. MR. Ee : So that’s all yours? And you did sign this one? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. ae : And this is the 3:00 a.m. count? MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And what does this say? EFTA00113738

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: 72. MR. a : Alright. So do you recall a conversation with the ops lieutenant with regard to that discrepancy? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don’t recall a conversation with (Indiscernible *01:56:31) the discrepancy, but I’m sure that another one was sent down changing the -. Because they wanted to clear, I’m sure that another one was sent down saying 72 with the correct number on it. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I mean I -. The person that I can see that’s down there definitely would have verified that. Oh, you have the wrong number. And switched it out. MR. ae : Okay. And -. MR. THOMAS: That’s just -. MR. Ee : Do you remember though speaking with the person on the phone and saying that -. MR. THOMAS: I don't. I don't. MR. a : You don't remember any conversation with them telling you you’ve got to do a new count. A new count slip. EFTA00113739

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall any conversation, but I’m almost -. I would be sure that he didn’t just let that just go with the wrong number on there. Or maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t. MR. a : Well I think it was a “she.” Would you have spoken to -? MR. THOMAS: It’s “he.” MR. a : Oh this person is “he”? So it wouldn’t have been fF that did this one? MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? MR. a : Who would have -? Can you tell which -? Because doesn’t the ops lieutenant have to take one of the counts? MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm. MR. ae : Can you tell who it was that took this count on 12:00 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t’ tell by not handwriting. It says -. Well I don't know who took it. It doesn’t say who took it. It just say who prepared it. MR. a : Okay. Do you at all recall speaking with fF about these counts on August 10, 2019? EFTA00113740

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't. No. MR. a : No? So is this the first that you’re even noticing that the count -? MR. THOMAS: That the count slip was wrong? Yes. This is my first time besides in the -. This is my first time in the -. MR. es : Would that be a big deal if you’re sending in a count slip that’s wrong though? MR. THOMAS: Would it be a big -? It’s a -. Yes. It would be a big deal as far as the wrong count being called in. And then the correct count slip would have been changed before the count was cleared. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: So I’m sure the correct count slip probably was sent down. It’s just obviously not here. MR. Ee : But being that it’s kind of a big deal, that still doesn’t spark your memory of any kind of correction to this? MR. THOMAS: No. It’s not sparking my memory by any kind of (Indiscernible *01:58:22) but I’m sure a correct count slip would have been sent down. EFTA00113741

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: It wouldn’t have just been left at 73 on there and that’s the wrong number. MR. a : So if that - a new count slip would have been sent down, is there any reason for them to have that count slip that was originally prepared attached to this document? MR. THOMAS: Unless it got misplaced. No. I don't know they would put that one onto this document. MR. a : Okay. Fair enough. Were any supervisors present? Or are supervisors -? So you already said you didn’t conduct any counts, so obviously no supervisors were present for any counts or rounds during your shift. Correct? MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Were they required to be present for any counts or rounds during their shift? MR. THOMAS: They’re required to take one count. I don't know which count they’re required -. I don't know what’s the book EFTA00113742

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 thing. But which one they required. But are they required to take rounds in the SHU while I’m there? I don't know. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't know if they’re actually supposed to have to do one round per unit or anything like that. I really don't know that. MR. a : So when you say they are required to take one count, do you mean in the control center? MR. THOMAS: In the control center downstairs. Yes. MR. QJ: Yeah.) They’re supposed to take an institution count. MR. THOMAS: Yes. Exactly. MR. ae : But are they required to go to the SHU and physically do either a round or a count -- MR. THOMAS: I -. MR. a : -- during each shift? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Did they ever do that during any of your morning - your shifts from midnight to 8:00 a.m.? EFTA00113743

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Did they ever come take a count with me? MR. a : Do a round or a count with you? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I’ve seen them do it before. I’ve seen them just come. Some will count a unit for you from time-to-time. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't recall that night - which lieutenant, but I’ve seen lieutenants, oh well I’m going to be here. I’11 count that unit so you don't have to worry about it. Since we’d be so shorthanded sometimes they - if they’re out and about at that time, they’1ll just take it then. They’1ll take the 3:00 count. Like I said, it varies. There’s no -. As far as I know, there’s no black-and-white way of how to do it. MR. Ee : Okay. So you don't know MR. THOMAS: As far as -. MR. a : -- requirement saying that you know a lieutenant needs to do a count or a round? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don't know of any EFTA00113744

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 requirement. MR. a : So you think when people did it in the SHU, you think -. Your understanding was they were doing it just to help you out? MR. THOMAS: Yes. If they did it while I was in the SHU. Yes. MR. a : Um. Do you recall when you worked in the SHU if there were any recent times -? Like I know you worked on August 9th. Do you remember at all -? I know it’s a different day. MR. THOMAS: On the 6th I think is -. MR. QJ: | Do: you remember at that time if a lieutenant helped or assisted with a count -- MR. THOMAS: I don't. MR. a : -- or a round? MR. THOMAS: I don't. I don't. MR. QJ: You don't? MR. THOMAS: I don't. MR. ae : Fair enough. Um. Alright. So you already said. We don't need to go through all these individually -- MR. THOMAS: Okay. 169 EFTA00113745

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- one by one. You said you didn’t do the 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. What conversation did you have with Noel about this during that time? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : I know I asked you specifically about the 12:00 a.m. But what about it during your shift at all? Like not doing any of the counts or any of the rounds. What conversations did you have with Noel? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember having any conversations with her about it. No. MR. a : So it wasn’t even discussed like, hey we’re just - it’s a long night, we’re all tired. lLet’s just not do these. MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. QJ: No? MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. I don't remember anything like that. No. MR. a : Alright. So no one of them were conducted, but no conversations with regard to it? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember any conversations with us talking about it or EFTA00113746

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 171 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 anything like that. MR. a : Okay. And on the 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. Did you call in the counts or did Noel call in the counts? MR. THOMAS: I don’t remember who called in the counts. MR. es : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. It had to be either one. There’s only us two there. I don’t remember who did it exactly. I really don't. MR. a : Alright. So like you said with regard to the rounds that are signed. Both are responsible. You know you’re supposed to both conduct it. One actually has to sign - MR. THOMAS: Somebody has to call it in. MR. a : Somebody has to call it in. So you’re both take responsibility for calling them in. You both take responsibly for signing the round sheets? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. So if you’re documenting these rounds. Did you document these counts? You obviously had to document EFTA00113747

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the counts at the time that they were called in. Correct? Because you’ve got to provide the count slip. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : So if you’re preparing that count slip, why aren’t you just -? How long does it take to conduct a count? MR. THOMAS: 15 minutes - 10, 15 minutes. MR. a : So if you’re preparing the count slip, why aren’t you just conducting them? MR. THOMAS: Like I said, just exhausted. Most of the time, as you can see by my monthly, I do a lot of overtime. Like I said. Again, I’m usually the internal. I do prefer internal. But as you can see, I do SHU quite a bit as well. And it’s just something that just happened. Um. It’s really no easy way of putting it. It’s just something that just happened. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Regrettably. MR. a : So how often would you document cell counts that you didn’t conduct? MR. THOMAS: Not often at all. EFTA00113748

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Not often? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Would it be like one per shift? Two per shift? MR. THOMAS: No. Like -. I mean like I said, no one’s perfect and everything like that. But I could say I’ve done - I usually get up and do a round. Just walk around and everything like that. And it shows that I walked around and everything like that. But it’s not very often that I just said, fuck it. Excuse my language. That I just disregard my jobs and my duties. It’s definitely not often at all. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: But um, like I said, I just - MR. a : It happened in the past. You just don't know how it -. MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did. It’s - I’m sure it’s happened in the past. Like I said, I’m not going sit up and say I’m perfect. I get everything on the dot - bullet that. But I try to get as most of it like that. Sometimes you have bad days. Sometimes you have good days. EFTA00113749

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 But with everything else, I just had one and I know it was a bad day. MR. a : What about rounds? How often would they be not -? MR. THOMAS: Same thing. Same thing. MR. a : Same thing? MR. THOMAS: Same thing. You get as many as rounds as you can. I don't know what’s the number of if it’s 7, 10, or 12 or whatever the case of the number it is. But you do get the rounds in and everything. Even if you get them done. If you don't get them done by every half an hour, you know what I mean. I’ve done them every hour one time. You know just being exhausted. MR. a : Right. MR. THOMAS: But I do get some done and like I said, this particular time I guess I didn’t get anything done. MR. a : Now is - does it have anything to do with like being the 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? You know, why do they have three separate counts at that time? Is there a -? MR. THOMAS: That’s an institution thing. EFTA00113750

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Is that when inmates like typically try to harm themselves? Is that why they’ re done more often from that time? MR. THOMAS: It’s actually changed. Before the count was done at 9:45. Now it’s done at 10:00. Like it’s -. I don't know the particular reason why. That’s just standard BOP protocol since I’ve been there. To just make those counts. MR. a : Okay. DO you know of other staff members that are also entering on these - their slip counts and rounds that they’re not -? MR. THOMAS: I don't know what other staff members do. I’m locked in wherever. If I’m on internal or if I’m on the (Indiscernible *02:05:17). If I’m on one unit, I don't know what another housing unit is doing. MR. Ee : Sure. So you mentioned that there were certainly were other times that you didn’t do counts or rounds. So obviously I’m assuming you weren’t always working with Noel. Correct? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn’t always working with Noel. EFTA00113751

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : So I’m assuming those counts and rounds weren’t conducted with another staff member. Correct? MR. THOMAS: No. I said they were conducted -. MR. a : Not all of them. MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did say maybe not all of them or maybe most of them. Or maybe all of them was conducted. You know what I mean? It’s not always as a (Indiscernible *02:05:48) just not done at all. MR. QM: well -. MR. THOMAS: But I have conducted my counts before. Absolutely. MR. a : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But I want to make sure that we’re certain that obviously you -- MR. THOMAS: that I said that I’m not perfect? MR. a : Yeah-yeah. That you didn’t conduct all of your counts that were documented. MR. THOMAS: You can be certain that I’m not perfect that I’ve conducted every single one of mine all the time. But I’ve conducted EFTA00113752

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 most of my counts for most of the time. MR. a : Okay. Gotcha. MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. MR. a : So when that happens though, would you have conversations with staff members in general? Like hey man, it’s just a long day. Let’s not do this one. MR. THOMAS: Um. Absolutely that depends on so many different variables. There’s really no conversations about well you know we’re not going to do this or anything like that. There’s really no conversations about that. MR. a : I would just think that if there’s no -. If it’s supposed to be done and there’s no conversations about it, that just seems like they’re never done. So what do you have to say -- MR. THOMAS: Not really because -. MR. Ee : -- like okay let’s skip this one. MR. THOMAS: -- you’ve got -. Like I said, I’m not the only one that does this actually looks a lot different from what I’m used to seeing. As you can see because right now, these only have stars. Some people have S by EFTA00113753

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 their name because they did more overtime than others. So if they - sometimes you could just be tired. Sometimes it doesn’t have to be a conversation. Somebody just didn’t bother you and you just did the round at all. I’m -. MR. a : Do you almost like wait for someone to take the initiative and if they don't take the initiative, you both just kind sit there? MR. THOMAS: No. No. Like I said, it just -. It could happen in any different variable way. You know what I mean? But most the time, I would say most of those guys in there do their counts. MR. a : Okay. Are more counts not being done in that morning shift though versus the day shift? MR. THOMAS: Again, I don't know what other people do. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: When they’re in their housing units or not. MR. QJ: Okay. And is it kind of a common practice at the MCC not to do rounds in the SHU? And the counts? 178 EFTA00113754

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~) wo LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 MR. THOMAS: No. It’s not a common 2 practice. I don't want to say that. 3 MR. a : You wouldn’t say it’s a 4 common practice? So this was an unusual even uw you’re saying? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Definitely an unusual 7 event. 8 MR. J: on. 9 MR. THOMAS: Definitely. 10 MR. a : Okay. I’m going to move 11 on to the next thing. Let’s just talk a little 12 bit about the SHU layout. Do you have a uh -? 13 Do you mind - just so we can get these away 14 from you - do you mind just initialing -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 16 MR. Ee : -- and dating the top 17 there? Both the rosters as well as the count 18 slips. We already did the rounds. Correct? 19 MR. a: The rounds -. Yeah. 20 MR. QJ: | So just initial and date 21 the top. It’s just to show that we’re - 22 MR. THOMAS: That we spoke about it. 23 MR. a : It’s what we discussed. 24 And this one we didn’t actually go over. My 25 bad. Thank you, sir for initialing and dating EFTA00113755

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 those. So this is the layout of the SHU. It looks like -. You said that there’s two levels in the SHU. Correct? It starts on the 9th floor. MR. THOMAS: Yes. It starts on the 9th floor and goes all the way up to the 10th. MR. es : Okay. Are you able to tell by this - by looking at the letters which one is the first floor and which one is the second? MR. THOMAS: No, I can’t tell. MR. a: That isn’t the cells. MR. a : So like the cell numbers and stuff. Do you know which ones are like L, H, all that kind of stuff? MR. THOMAS: By the numbers? No. I couldn’t tell you which number is what. What stay is -. Nah, I couldn’t tell you what number. That could be -. No. I really couldn’t tell you what numbers are what. MR. a : That’s fine. So they’re -. Are they basically? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure that this could be the top and this could the -. MR. a: Are they basically EFTA00113756

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 identical layouts though? MR. THOMAS: On everyone except for -. Yeah. Every housing unit is set up the same. Absolutely. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Except for -. MR. es : So it looks like they’re -. Aside from this. This says stairs. So it says kitchen area. Would the kitchen area be on the first? And which is the second? MR. THOMAS: The kitchen are is on every housing unit. MR. a : You have to tell me a (Indiscernible *02:10:04). MR. THOMAS: It’s ina -. MR. a : Like as far as so like this is what I’m noticing as a difference. These cells look like they’re all the same aside from here. It looks like there’s visiting activity. And then here it says kitchen area. And here it has this area. So by looking at that are you able to tell what’s the first and what’s the second? So I’m noticing the difference between this and this. MR. THOMAS: Right. Yeah. Okay. This EFTA00113757

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would -. No. Because this says office. I would have said this would have been the bottom, but this says office. Maybe -. This got to be the bottom because the visiting floor. But -. MR. a: This says M over here. See, this has M in front of it. This has K. MR. a : These are the tiers. MR. THOMAS: M, H. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, this is a tier. Okay. MR. a : That’s what I was saying by the (Indiscernible *02:10:57). MR. THOMAS: Oh in front of there. You said -. See I heard you say (Indiscernible *02:11:00). So H would be the -. This would. I think K is the -. Gis - Where’s G? Gis the top. There we go. MR. a : That’s what I thought. So and these are the L tier over here. MR. THOMAS: Oh because this is 10 South. That’s a -. This is 10 South. MR. a : And just since you mentioned it. What is 10 South? MR. THOMAS: Another housing unit inside the institution. EFTA00113758

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : Is it the super-secure, one inmate per cell. MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. MR. a : It has cameras in it. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Cameras all around and everything like that. MR. a : Right. So high-profile type of thing. MR. THOMAS: High-profile inmates and everything like that go in there. Yes. MR. a : Alright. So did you say then this is because that’s 10 South this is the second floor? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. I’m just going to write on top of this right here “second.” MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Second floor. And on this one I’m just going to write first floor. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You separated by floors but they’re all in one place. MR. ae : Sure. MR. THOMAS: Like it’s not -. MR. a : yeah-yeah-yeah. MR. THOMAS: It’s not two different EFTA00113759

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 separate floors. When you’re saying floor I’m thinking 9th floor, 7th floor. But this is all technically -. MR. QJ: «it’s all the suv. MR. THOMAS: It’s all the SHU. Yeah. MR. a : Correct. But there are two floors in the SHU. Right? MR. THOMAS: No it’s really not -. Well yeah. It’s not two floors. MR. a : Like a split-level almost? MR. THOMAS: I don't know how to explain it. It’s not two floors like that because then you would say it’s three floors. Because when you go down - you go down the steps into one. And you just go up the stairs but it’s all in one area. MR. a : Okay. So -- MR. THOMAS: Like this would all be 10 South. MR. a : -- when I say -. MR. THOMAS: And this all would be nine. And then all this would be seven. But right here, you’ll go down and then you’1ll go up. But it’s still all on the same floor. EFTA00113760

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. THOMAS: It’s all on the 9th floor. MR. a : So it’s all 9th floor. So is this the second level of the 9th floor? MR. THOMAS: The second level of the 9th floor. MR. QJ: «9 Should I change 2nd floor to 2nd level? MR. THOMAS: Yeah just like -. Yeah. Because you say floor you’re thinking like you went from one floor to another. Like this is the third floor and downstairs would be the 2nd floor. MR. ae : Sure MR. THOMAS: But this is all - it’s all on one. MR. ae : So 9th floor 2nd level. Is that correct? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Okay. I don't have a problem with that. MR. a : So 9th floor -- MR. THOMAS: First level. MR. a : First level. Alright. So can you tell me where is it that the officer’s station is set up? Where are you EFTA00113761

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 when you work in the SHU? Is it all ina centralized location? I’m assuming it’s on the first floor? MR. THOMAS: It’s on the first floor and it would be roughly it’ll be -. This is kind of set up crazy. But it would be over. No because that’s K, L, so this would be -. It’s in between K and - MR. a : This is the kitchen area. This is recreation. Would it be somewhere over like here or -? MR. THOMAS: Well see, because of the way that this is set up. It would be somewhere over here. But it’s not level with the tiers. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Like because how this is set up if I say that -. May I? MR. a : Yeah. You can even draw. MR. THOMAS: Alright. Like I’m saying it’s in this space here. Officers station. But it’s not on the same level as the tiers. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Like the way if I say officer’s station -- MR. a: So it’s like below it? EFTA00113762

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. THOMAS: -- you’re thinking it goes 2 down. If I say officer’s station here, you’re 3 thinking that - you’re thinking that it’s right 4 next to K tier and M tier. But it’s not like 5 that. 6 MR. a : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: Like this is -. The 8 officer’s station would be somewhere in this 9 general area right here. But then K tier is 10 over here but it’s downstairs. 11 MR. a : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: And then J tier is upstairs 13 but it’s still on the 9th floor. But it just 14 goes - like I said, it has steps here. Like 15 how it is. It’s got steps going down to one, 16 steps going down to two. So they’re not on the 17 same -- 18 MR. a : I understand. 19 MR. THOMAS: -- floor as the officer’s 20 station. 21 MR. a : So you think it’s actually 22 outside here and not more like in here? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It’s kind of like in 24 between. I would say more like here. Like in 25 between them. EFTA00113763

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. So from the officer’s station can you see like the doors to the cells? MR. THOMAS: You can see doors to the cells. Yes. MR. a : You can? MR. THOMAS: You can see inside the cells, absolutely not. But I can see the doors to the cell. MR. a : So you can see the doors but you can’t see inside? MR. THOMAS: You can’t see inside the cells. No. You could just see the door. MR. QJ: | Alright. Could you see he door to Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: You can see his door from. Yes. You can see his door from there. MR. a : Okay. So from the officer’s station, was Epstein pretty much the closest cell to the officer’s station? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : It wasn’t? MR. THOMAS: No, it’s not the closest. The M tier because if I’m not mistaken, Epstein was on the second tier. So he would have been EFTA00113764

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 on L tier. He would have been up here. So all the cells in M tier just right here would have been the closest to the officer’s station. M tier and even this tier would be closer than. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: If I’m not mistaken, Epstein was up this -. MR. a : Do you remember which cell he was in? MR. THOMAS: I - up -. This one. MR. a : DO you mind just marking that like put a star or something? Okay. But you could see his door, but you just couldn’t - But -- MR. THOMAS: Yeah, you could see -. MR. Ee : -- it wasn’t the closest. MR. THOMAS: Yeah, it’s not the closest to MR. Ee : Is it - does it sit up there though if you can see like from down here. You can see there? MR. THOMAS: I don't know why he would sit there in that particular cell. MR. a : But you can see the door? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. EFTA00113765

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LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE 190 MR. Ee : Okay. And - I’1l just go through -. And you said you couldn’t see actually inside the cell though? MR. THOMAS: No, you can’t see inside the cell. No. Absolutely not. MR. a : And you, approximately like how far would that be from the officer’s station? Epstein’s cell? The estimate was 15 feet. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : Does that sound right? MR. THOMAS: We’re good with that. MR. a : So on August 10, 2019, did you ever see anyone inside of Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : Not from the hours of 12:00 a.m. to 6:33 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: No. Yeah. From - I never seen anybody going inside that cell. MR. a : Okay. So you didn’t ever witness anyone - inmates, staff members, or -. MR. THOMAS: No. I didn’t. MR. a : Okay. And were you present in the SHU for your entire shift from EFTA00113766

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12:00 a.m. to 6:33 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Is there like a bathroom and everything in the SHU for you to utilize? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes there is. Yes. MR. es : But you don't recall ever leaving? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall going to the bathroom. I don't know if I -. MR. a : No, not the bathroom. I just mean like there was no reason for you to leave that door. That someone would have had to unlock or lock to let you into, the control center would have to let you out. MR. THOMAS: Well somebody -. Well no reason somebody had to go upstairs and count the other units, but - well, one of us had to up there and count the other unit. But there’s no reason to -. There is a reason if you want to go use the bathroom or get a drink of water you can go over there but I don't remember if I left or not. I don’t really recall. MR. a : So is your recollection hat you remained in the SHU from the hours of EFTA00113767

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) 12:00 a.m. to about 6:33 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : So point being you would have known if someone went in or out of Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And no one did? MR. THOMAS: No one went in as far as I know. No. MR. a : Are you aware of any issues with the camera system in the SHU on August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : No? Did you know if any of them weren’t recording? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. ae : No. And you never spoke with anybody about the camera system? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: | Did someone live monitor you all when you’re in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You don't know. Do you know if someone is live monitoring the range of these tiers? EFTA00113768

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You’re not sure? MR. THOMAS: I’m not sure. I don’t think MR. a : Does each -? Do you know how like camera systems are set up? What they’ re pointing at and what they’re supposed to be covering? MR. THOMAS: I don’t - because some of the tiers have cameras. I mean some of the cells have cameras. I don't know. MR. a : When you say some have cameras -- MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t tell you. MR. a : -- would that be just like 10 South and then 10 South lower are the ones that have cameras? MR. THOMAS: No because some of the other tiers - some of the other cells have cameras inside. MR. a : Some of the other cells do have cameras in them? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Aside from 10 South and 10 South Lower? EFTA00113769

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And what is the purpose of that? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. Just when I came here they had cameras. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: So that they -. MR. a : So not outside of their cells. But in their cells? MR. THOMAS: Inside of the cells. Yes. MR. a : Was there a camera inside of Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if his tier particularly have cameras. But I know some of the tiers actually do have - besides 10 South € Lower. G tier - if I’m not mistaken. It’s either G or H. But I think it’s G. Yeah, G. Besides G and 10 South, yes, some of the other cells do have cameras in them. MR. QJ: Okay. Anything that you know that would capture the Epstein cell area? MR. THOMAS: No. Not inside his cell. wR. CE: vo. MR. THOMAS: If he doesn’t have a camera EFTA00113770

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 w ~] inside his cell. MR. a : Okay. Okay. I’m going to move on to the next section. This is about sleeping. DO you recall sleeping in the SHU on August 10, 2019 between the hours of 12:00 a.m. and approximately 6:33 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: I recall dozing off from here and there. Yes I do. MR. a : Do you recall how long you were asleep? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. MR. a : Do you recall if Noel also slept on her shift? MR. THOMAS: I don't -. No, I don't know. MR. a : So you don't know how long she was asleep for? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. MR. a : Okay. Were you and Noel seated next to each other on August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: If you’re saying seated like how me and -? MR. ae : Yeah. MR. THOMAS: No. We’re not seated like that. It’s -. MR. a: How far away were you? EFTA00113771

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. THOMAS: Not even - maybe a foot, two far but we’re feet apart. I mean it’s not too not sitting like right adjacent and next to each other. It’s like how it is it’s an L shape. MR. a : Okay. But I mean you’re sitting with one another. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : You’re not like touching MR. THOMAS: We’re sitting in the same MR. a : But you’re sitting with - MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You’re sitting -- MR. Ee : -- with one another. Yeah-yeah-yeah. MR. a : -- in the same area. But like one person is facing gone way and another person is facing another way. MR. a : Okay. And you don't recall seeing Noel actually sleeping? MR. THOMAS: No I don't recall her MR. QM: nd you did doze off. EFTA00113772

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 You did sleep. But you don't remember about how long? MR. THOMAS: I do not. MR. a : Was it about two hours sound about right? MR. THOMAS: I really couldn’t tell you. MR. a : Okay. Do you know if you were both asleep at the same time? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Did you discuss like hey, I’m going to sleep, you stay awake? MR. THOMAS: No. We did not MR. QJ: 0? Okay. No discussions were had. Are you authorized to sleep during your shift in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No you’re not. MR. ae : Okay. Is that policy that you’re not allowed to sleep? Like how do you know that you’re not authorized to sleep. MR. THOMAS: You’re just not allowed to sleep at work. I don't know if it’s policy or not. Just don't (Indiscernible *02:20:59). MR. a : Okay. And you knew at the time, obviously. MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113773

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : Okay. And just to go back, you knew at the time you know you had to -. You knew that you were falsifying those records at the time of the rounds, counts, and those count slips on August 93th. When you - the 10th I mean. When you were actually certifying when you knew that you were incorrectly certifying them? MR. THOMAS: The count slip? MR. QJ: Ss Yes. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Have you ever fallen asleep previously while on duty at the MCC? MR. THOMAS: I probably have. MR. QJ: Yeah? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Is that kind of like understood if you work that shift you kind of can doze off? MR. THOMAS: NO. MR. GJ: «9 No? MR. THOMAS: No. during the hours of 12:00 a.m. to -? lot less active wu 198 EFTA00113774

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: I mean of course everybody’s asleep at that time. All inmates are asleep at that time. But it’s a lot - no bodies - no interaction or anything like that. So I mean sometimes you get bored and you know I mean you can sleep through what (Indiscernible *02:21:51) you just nod a little bit. It’s - I’m sure it’s -. It’s happened with me a few times but I mean I do get up from time-to-time and try to drink and definitely got a case of Red Bull on hand from now on. MR. a : Okay. What about Noel? Have you worked with her in the past? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. Maybe I have. I don't know exactly who I’ve -. I’ve been here 14 -. MR. ee: So do you recall her sleeping in the past? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. Hm-mm. MR. a : What about other people that you work with? You recall other people would also sleep? MR. THOMAS: No. I can’t recall if they were sleeping or not. MR. a: You’re just taking EFTA00113775

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ownership for yourself. You know you fell asleep, but -. MR. THOMAS: That’s it. MR. a : Okay. Did Noel ever try to wake you up when you were sleeping? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. MR. QJ: No? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think so. MR. a : Did anyone report -? That you know of? Did anyone contact you and try to wake you up? If people were watching you on the cameras. Did anybody say hey, wake up, or did Noel ever say hey, you’ve got to wake up? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: «No? «Where is a co required to be during their shift in the SHU? Is it just all over the area? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. QJ: Just walking around - just within the SHU? MR. THOMAS: It’s just with - yeah, just I guess in the SHU. Yeah. Well some -- MR. a : On your -. MR. THOMAS: -- it - you’re required to be EFTA00113776

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 inside the SHU. Yes. Because some -. MR. a : Is there always two people required to be in the SHU at all times? Can there ever be one person left alone in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I’ve seen when it’s been one person, but it’s -. If I’m not mistaken, it’s required for us to be I think a minimum of two. MR. a : Okay. So if you need to actually leave the SHU during that shift when there’s only two people there, what do you do? If two people are supposed to be there, do you have to call and see if someone else can come replace you? Or is it -? MR. THOMAS: Um.... Uh...if you’re talking about like for emergencies, maybe of course somebody has to replace you and maybe they might be - could be just short-handed and you just left alone. But I know sometimes we used to have to count next door. We used to go count um, nine - the 9th floor. So it just varies. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Um. MR. a: So do you have like a EFTA00113777

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 certain amount of time that you’re allowed to leave one person alone? Like for instance -- MR. THOMAS: I don't -. MR. a : -- if you’ve got to go help with a count? Are you allowed to say, hey I’ll be right back? And you get like a 10- minute window or anything like that? Or -- MR. THOMAS: I don't -- MR. a : -- how does that work? MR. THOMAS: -- know if it’s um, a particular number or anything like that. But if you’re going to go count 8, or you’re going to count 10 and then you’re going to go count 9. I don’t -. There’s no particular time. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. People walk different (Indiscernible *02:24:25) and I probably walk faster than say Mr. FY or yourself where some people might be walking fast. It’s -. As far as I know, there’s no particular -- MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: -- set time. MR. a : So you already said you didn’t leave the SHU on August 10th. Did you EFTA00113778

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 know if Noel left the SHU at all on August 10th? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't remember. I don't remember. MR. a : You just know you were there the whole time? MR. THOMAS: If I didn’t count 10. I don't know if I counted 10 or not. I don't remember if I counted 10 or not. MR. a : Now if you count 10 is that considered leaving the SHU? Because isn’t that count part of the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I’ve seen that that’s a different number. It’s a different floor. That’s actually - you’re not inside the SHU. You’re inside 10 South which is a totally different place. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: But if you -. MR. a : But you don't have to go through like control and all those door locks. That’s all kind of within that general SHU area? MR. THOMAS: Control has to pop the door. MR. a: Oh they do have to pop EFTA00113779

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the door? MR. THOMAS: They do have to pop the door for you get inside. The same process. You take the phone off the hook. You ring the officer inside and control has to pop your door. And then once you’re out, once control pops that outer door, the officer inside has to open up the inner door. MR. a : Okay. So it is its own separate unit. MR. THOMAS: It’s its own separate unit just like any of the -. Say if I go to - MR. a : So there’s two officers at 12:00 a.m. to 6:30 -. MR. THOMAS: No it’s one officer up there. MR. a : There’s only one officer in there? MR. THOMAS: It’s one officer up there. So that’s why somebody has to go up there and count. MR. a : Okay. Is it always then from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 one of the people that are in the SHU always have to assist 10 South? MR. THOMAS: They - most of the time they assist 10 South and sometimes they - more often EFTA00113780

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 than not they have to assist 9 North as well. MR. a : Okay. And what’s 9 North? MR. THOMAS: The unit across the hall. MR. a : Is that also like a special housing unit type of situation? MR. THOMAS: No. It’s a regular housing MR. a : Okay. But you don't know if that’s against policy or not? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if it’s against policy if you’re just helping out because you’re short-handed. MR. QJ: sure. MR. THOMAS: Short-handed then. MR. Ee : Alright. Are you guys authorized when you’re in the SHU to be able to access the computers for your own personal reasons? Like are you allowed to do internet searches and things like that? Limited personal use? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if you are or aren’t authorized or not but I don't know if it’s unauthorized or not. MR. a: You’re not even sure? EFTA00113781

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: I’m not. MR. a : They don't talk to you about like what you can and can’t do? MR. THOMAS: Well I -. I know you’re locked. You can’t just go shoot, search Facebook or YouTube and those things are not allowed on those types of computers. MR. a : Oh, okay. You’re not allowed to do like email or like Facebook or -. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You can’t do any of that stuff and you can’t access. As far as I know you can’t access your own personal email. You have the job email and everything like that. And that’s about it. MR. a : Are you allowed to do like regular internet searches though and things? MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Do you recall using the internet on August 10th? MR. THOMAS: I wrote my name and it says yeah, I recall using the internet at that time. MR. a: Okay. Do you remember EFTA00113782

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 what you were searching for? MR. THOMAS: Um, it says motorcycle. MR. a : Motorcycles? Alright. But do you know if that was authorized or not authorized? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. es : So you’re not sure. Okay. Are you aware if Noel also was utilizing the computer? MR. THOMAS: I don't know what she was on. MR. a : No. But do you know if she was using the computer? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If she was I don't know. Like I said, we’re facing two totally different directions. MR. Ee : Sure. Do you know, were you seated -? What desk were you seated at? Were you happened to be seated at the OIC’s desk? MR. THOMAS: There’s no - specifically this is the OIC station and this is somebody else here. It’s not labeled that way. MR. a : Alright. The reason why I ask, I’m told that there was a sign on the OIC’s desk that said Epstein is required to EFTA00113783

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 have a cellmate. So I was told that the OIC had like a specific desk. Do you call seeing that sign -- MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : -- on any of the computers or desk areas? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. MR. a : That Epstein is required to have a cellmate? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. MR. a : No. Alright. So as far as visitors to the SHU. You said that there was - Po lane came at 4:00 but you don't recall any - another CO coming in at 5:30 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. MR. ae : No? And the food delivery. You said that’s all outside of the SHU? You go out and get that yourself? MR. THOMAS: You go out and get that. I mean it happens I mean if I’m not mistaken it was just me and Noel up there. At some time the 6:00 count come. He’s pushing it in when he comes along. But I don't remember seeing the 6:00 cart come in at that time. EFTA00113784

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LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE 209 MR. QE: 9 alright. MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't remember if he was there or not. I really don't remember. MR. a : Okay. And you said no one entered Epstein’s cell between 12:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. that you know of? MR. THOMAS: Not by my knowledge. MR. a : And did you enter Epstein’s cell at all between 6:00 and approximately 6:30? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : And so never before the initial -? MR. THOMAS: The yes. The (Indiscernible *02:28:54) MR. ae : Okay. Do you know who the last person was to enter Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: I do not know. MR. QJ: Okay. = Do you know what would be the purpose of someone for the last person to enter his cell? When you give people food, do you do it through the food tray? MR. THOMAS: Food slot. MR. a: Food slot. EFTA00113785

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Food slot. So what would be a purpose to actually enter a cell? MR. THOMAS: During which shift? My shift? The overnight? MR. a : Yeah just what would be the -. So if you can think of a reason why people would go into inmates’ cells. What would be the reason why someone would have -? MR. THOMAS: Most of the time you don’t go in an inmate’s cell. Unless authorized. The lieutenant has to be there to go in there. MR. a : Into an inmate’s cell? MR. THOMAS: Well if you're talking about during the morning watch. I can’t go in there until the lieutenant comes. I wouldn’t just go in unless the lieutenant was there. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : So officers don't go into inmates’ cells unless lieutenants are present? MR. THOMAS: No not for all - if an inmate is harming himself, I’m not going to wait for a lieutenant -- MR. a: Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah- EFTA00113786

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 yeah. MR. a : Yeah. That’s understood. You know what I’m saying. But as far as just going in the cell, I’m not going to go in there unless the lieutenant is present. MR. a : Okay. Do you recall any issues with any other inmates on August 10, 2019? During your shift? MR. THOMAS: With me? MR. a : Yeah. MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : You had no - any issues? Do you remember like were inmates complaining about the cells being left on or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: Cells being left on? MR. ae : Sorry. The lights being left on. MR. THOMAS: Nah, I don't remember. They complain about a lot. I don't really remember. MR. a : Do you know of any other inmates that were like, came from suicide watch or were supposed to have special attention or anything? MR. THOMAS: Ah no. I don't remember. EFTA00113787

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : So you don't remember complaints about the lights being left on? Nothing? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : How do the lights work? Do you - are the lights left on down the range that (Indiscernible *02:30:41)? MR. THOMAS: The lights are left on down the range, but all inmates cover up their lights anyway. But even with the light switch it doesn’t cut off all the lights. It’s a light switch. As soon as you go into the tier to the left. And it shuts off the lights. But some work and some because you can shut it off and an inmate could still turn on his light. It doesn’t shut the power off to him. MR. ae : So they have access to their own interior lights? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes they do. MR. a : But the outside lights that you have access to - do they remain on? MR. THOMAS: They remain on 24/7, seven days a week, -- MR. a : They do? Alright. MR. THOMAS: -- 365 days. 212 EFTA00113788

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : And is that like they have to remain on type of thing? MR. THOMAS: I guess so. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Alright. Now we’re going to talk about the medical emergency. Was there a medical emergency in the SHU on the morning of August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Why was the medical emergency called? MR. THOMAS: When I went up to the cell to feed the tier, when I knocked on the door, I seen Mr. Epstein and I said to come to the door, come to the door. And he didn’t move. And then I said I’m coming in. And then I went in and he was hanging. MR. Ee : Okay. When was the medical emergency called? MR. THOMAS: I called it immediately. I couldn’t tell you the exact time. MR. a : But you called it? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I yelled to Noel to get help. EFTA00113789

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. Ee : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I yelled to Noel. MR. a : So you’ve gone to the door, saw what you saw, and you yelled to - immediately? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I yelled to -. Well when I got to the door, I couldn’t see what I was seeing. When I popped it open, I seen what I saw and I yelled for help. MR. a : So was the medical emergency called before you even entered the cell? Did you call Noel to call the medical? MR. THOMAS: Yes, I called for Noel to call for the medical emergency. Yes. MR. a : Prior to entering? MR. THOMAS: Right as soon as I entered. Right as soon as I entered. MR. a : Okay. So kind of like opened the door and you said call for help. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Exactly. MR. a : That type of thing and you ran in. MR. THOMAS: Simultaneously. Yes. MR. a : Okay. So at what time -? - So if the medical emergency was called at 6:33 EFTA00113790

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a.m., approximately what time was Epstein discovered? Do you think like a minute went by? Two minutes? Three minutes? Five minutes? MR. THOMAS: The - I can’t tell you the exact time, but I know whenever I popped -. Because I don't know what time the food cart came. The food cart came up. I don't remember if we set up all the tiers first or we set it up just -. That took us -. Usually how I do is I set up all the tiers and then I come back to the first tier and then I put it on. I don’t remember if I did so or not. But when I got to this particular -. When I got to his cell, I got there, I came with the food. I put them all on the walking food cart that’s there that you put - that you could take. Let’s say it was 15 inmates up there that you take. Usually in the morning there’s two trays. I walked up there. I had it all set up so if the food cart. I don't know who was one. Certain people, food cart come up early, some people the food cart come up late. If the food cart came up early, let’s say by the time I discovered - by the time I would let’s say if I EFTA00113791

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 216 10 11 12 18 19 20 went in there at 6:00, yelled the medical emergency at 6:01 and your question was -. MR. a : Sorry. So the medical emergency was called at 6:33. MR. THOMAS: 6:33. So I opened -- MR. a : So I’m saying -. MR. THOMAS: -- the cell at - if it’s closer. I opened the cell at 6:32. MR. a : Okay. So approximately probably like a minute? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It couldn’t have taken her because I yelled to Noel. She yelled. It couldn’t have taken more than 30 seconds for her to rush and yell for that emergency. MR. a : Alright. But you are the one that discovered Epstein in his cell? MR. THOMAS: Yes I am. MR. a : Okay. And who called the medical emergency? MR. THOMAS: I would assume Noel did or MR. QJ: Well the - MR. THOMAS: -- yelled it over the radio or whatever. MR. a: And that’s what I was EFTA00113792

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going to say. How was the medical emergency called? Did she call it on the radio? Did she have to call on the phone? How does that work? MR. THOMAS: I - if -. She could have called on the radio. She could have did either or. She could have called over the radio. SHU need assistance. She could have the radio over the phone. I don't remember -- MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: -- exactly which one that she did. But it could have been either or. MR. a : Do you know what she said? What did you tell her at the time? Did you say we need assistance? MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. I said. Yeah. Medical emergency. Need help. Need help. MR. ae : Need help. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. Ee : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't know my exact words. I’m sure I just said to say we need help. MR. a : Okay. When was the last time you saw Epstein prior to the discovery? MR. THOMAS: Um.... Prior to the discovery? That day that I sat with him. No- EFTA00113793

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 no. Probably the day prior. The day prior when I fed him. MR. a : So the day prior. MR. THOMAS: The day prior when I fed him. MR. QM: so —-.. MR. THOMAS: Yep. MR. a : On August 9th on your shift sometime between I guess in the morning. Around like between 6:00, 6:30? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Whatever. It’s between 6:00 and 6:30. MR. a : So approximately 24 hours before? MR. THOMAS: That I actually seen him or - MR. Ee : That you just laid eyes on him. MR. THOMAS: Probably when I did my count. Like when you’re talking about we actually fed right when I did my count that night. The night prior. The night when I did morning watch. MR. a : Alright. So you wouldn’t have seen him when -. Did you feed him? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure I did the feeding. EFTA00113794

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. Ee : But you don't actually 2 put eyes on people when you do the feeding? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. When you do the 4 feeding. So yeah, the feeding prior in that 5 time. 6 MR. a : So I’m just saying when 7 you looked at him. You looked him - 8 MR. THOMAS: Oh looked at him besides -? 9 He grabbed the tray and we spoke. Yeah. 10 MR. a : So probably about 24 11 hours before. 2 MR. THOMAS: Twenty-four hours prior to 3 that. Yeah. That morning watch on the 6:00 4 when did the feeing. 15 MR. QJ: kay. And did -- 16 MR. THOMAS: On the 9th 7 MR. ae : -- you notice anything 8 unusual when you last saw him? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 20 MR. SJ: No? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. Just took his tray. 22 MR. ae : Do you know who the last 23 person was to see Epstein alive? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. QJ: No? EFTA00113795

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 MR. THOMAS: Not there. MR. a : Do you remember hearing anything from Epstein’s cell between the times of 12:00 a.m. and 6:33 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : So you never heard like any kind of banging or rustling or you know coughing or -? MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. MR. QJ: Nothing? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No movement or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. MR. a : Alright. So you said when you discovered him, you were outside the door. You saw through the actual window. Correct? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QJ: nd that’s when you noticed something was off? MR. THOMAS: I noticed something off or anything like that. Yes. MR. a : And where was Noel standing? Do you remember? 220 EFTA00113796

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Um... I don't -. I can’t recall. MR. a : Was she near you? Was she on the same tier? Do you know if she was like somewhere else? MR. THOMAS: I don't -. She -. I really can’t recall. I don't know. To just be specific I really don't know where she was standing. If she was standing at the grill or if she was standing at the base. I really couldn’t -. I really don't remember. MR. a : When you’re feeding the inmates, is she typically near you? MR. THOMAS: No. She doesn’t have to be. She could like I said, it all depends on how that day. Like I said, we both were tired. She could have been setting up the rest of the tiers. If I didn’t set up the tiers. So until I yelled for that help, that’s the minute. And when I yelled for that help, she reacted to my yell. MR. a : Do you -? When you yelled for help, do you remember ever seeing her? Making sure she knew? MR. THOMAS: I really can’t recall. EFTA00113797

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : Yeah. You just remember yelling. MR. THOMAS: Because I’m in the cell. Yeah I’m in the cell at that time. MR. QJ: lxcight. MR. THOMAS: But I know she heard me. MR. a : You know she heard you. Do you remember like her responding or anything. Like I’m on it. MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. a : . Received? Copy? MR. THOMAS: I really don't -. MR. a : Anything? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : So you just know you yelled. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : You don't know where she was? MR. THOMAS: I don't know where she was. She was just at the grill or whatever. Maybe she was ta the grill. I don't remember exactly where she was at. But I yelled and I know she called for help because help came. MR. a : Alright. So when you did 222 EFTA00113798

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 ~] wo 10 11 see Epstein -. This is where we’re going to have to get into a little more detail. MR. THOMAS: Sure. MR. a : What did you see? MR. THOMAS: He was hanging by a sheet. MR. a : So what was he hanging from? MR. THOMAS: His bed. MR. a : From his bed? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. Ee : Did you see the picture? Actually there (Indiscernible *02:38:12). Sure. MR. MITCHELL: He needs a break. MR. a : You want to take a break - a little break? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I got another 10 minutes here. I’ve got to go. MR. QJ: | lcight. MR. THOMAS: The hour-and-a-half is up for the thing. MR. ae : So we have 10 minutes? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Alright. Ten minutes and then we’ll take another little break. We’re EFTA00113799

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 getting close. But. So this can help us with this when we were talking about the SHU. And just so can we get these maps out of there. Do you mind just initialing and dating this? Thank you, sir. Alright. So here’s some pictures I want to show you. Is this - was Epstein on L tier? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. See this is exactly what I’m saying. Like this is down from M tier but yeah he’s on L tier. MR. a : Okay. Where was his cell? MR. THOMAS: It would be back here. MR. QJ: Back on this side? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. Ee : Alright. What am I looking at here? Are you able to tell? MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t tell you what tier it is. But it’s just a hallway and that’s the food cart. MR. a : Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? Is this the door that you walked up to when you saw? MR. THOMAS: If you say it is, okay. MR. a: Alright. So you can’t EFTA00113800

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 even actually see that because it’s crossed with this crime scene. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : But um, do you have any reason to believe that that wouldn’t be the door that you went into -- MR. THOMAS: no. MR. a : -- where Epstein was discovered? MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. I have no reason to believe it. MR. a : Okay. When you walked in, does this look like it was the same type of cell? Because all I’m going to ask is where he was hanging. MR. THOMAS: He was hanging over here to this side. MR. a : Okay. So is this a picture where -? MR. THOMAS: Yeah because if you put them together, like the bunk it’s over to this side. MR. a : Alright. So was he hanging from something in here? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Hanging from - it was tied up right here and then I ripped it down EFTA00113801

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and I put him to the ground. MR. a : So was this what he was tied to? MR. THOMAS: It was more - it wasn’t just that little thing. It was more stringed then that that I ripped down. MR. QJ: lecight. MR. THOMAS: Maybe it’s down there or something like that. Like I see some string and stuff right here. MR. a : Do you just mind like marking where it was that - where the noose or whatever - the rope was tied? Just for clarity? What it was attached to? MR. THOMAS: It was attached to the bunk. It’s attached to the bunk. MR. ae : Is this it here though? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, it’s attached to the bunk to this general area eight here. MR. QJ: So just circle that general area. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Alright. You mind just initialing and dating that? Alright. MR. THOMAS: Am I doing the same with this EFTA00113802

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 one? MR. a : No-no-no. We’ll -. Well you can if you want sure. I mean you looked at it. And do you believe -? So did you take down this and somebody put it back up? MR. THOMAS: No. I -. It was attached to them and it wasn’t just that singular piece. It might have more rope to it. MR. a : Alright. There was more rope to it? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : But this is what was hanging? He was hanging - /t It was something (Indiscernible *02:41:36) I don't know if that’s a sheet or shirt or whatever the case may be. But yeah. MR. ae : Okay. MR. THOMAS: He was hanging from over there. MR. QJ: Prom this area? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. ae : Alright. You mind just initialing and dating that? Alright. So when you went in, you found him, he was still hanging. EFTA00113803

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 228 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : And what did you do? MR. THOMAS: I ripped him down and I yelled for help and I started for CPR. MR. a : So how did you rip him down? MR. THOMAS: Yeah I just ripped the sheet down MR. a : So you ripped the sheet first? MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And then did you like pick him up or did you just throw him on the floor -- MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. MR. QJ: | -- or did he fall in the floor? MR. THOMAS: Kind of just like got him to the floor. I ripped it off like that and then he dropped of course. And then I laid him onto the ground. MR. ae : Okay. So he dropped - fall? After you -? MR. THOMAS: Well it’s wasn’t -. As you could see, it’s not that -. If you can see by EFTA00113804

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 w ~] wo 10 11 the thing like that. (Indiscernible *02:42:30). Where’s the picture? MR. a : Right here. In the, can I have the picture back? MR. THOMAS: Oh. The ground it right here. MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: Like if you take he’s maybe like plopped to the- he was maybe about an inch-and-a-half or maybe an inch off the ground. MR. I: 9 so. MR. THOMAS: Like he was lower than the -. MR. ae : So after you ripped this thing, did he just fall first? MR. THOMAS: Just dropped down. Yeah. MR. ae : He dropped down? MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : And then you moved him? So alright. MR. THOMAS: I did not move him to (Indiscernible *02:42:52) MR. a : So you rip the sheet. He falls to the floor. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. EFTA00113805

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : And then you moved him where you could start MR. THOMAS: Yeah. So I could lay him down and start CPR. MR. a : Alright. Do you remember if his like if anything of his body hit anywhere? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. QM: Shen he fell? MR. THOMAS: No I don't remember his body hitting anywhere. MR. a : We just - the reason why we’re asking is like with the autopsy -- MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : -- we've got to make sure of that. MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah-yeah. The - it’s just like a drop down. MR. Ee : Alright. So he dropped -- MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- basically do you remember if he landed on his butt? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. On his butt. Yeah. He landed on his butt here. MR. QM: fe Landed on his butt? EFTA00113806

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 231 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : But his head remained upright? MR. THOMAS: Nah, I’m sure he -. MR. a : I don't mean upright like looking at you but I mean like he was -. His body remained upright. MR. THOMAS: I would guess he was just limped over. I would say just limped over. MR. THOMAS: And I just -. MR. a : And then you physical moved him you know to -- MR. THOMAS: To the floor. MR. a : -- the floor. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. ae : Alright. Do you remember if his - like anything hit harder than another when you moved him -- MR. THOMAS: I really don't -- MR. ae : -- to the floor? MR. THOMAS: -- remember other than. MR. a : Yeah. No worries. Alright. So he was still hanging. That was the position you found him on, you ripped it EFTA00113807

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 off. He fell to the floor. You then moved him to the ground. What was he wearing at the time? Do you remember? MR. THOMAS: Pants. MR. a : Was he naked or anything like that? Or he still had his clothes on? MR. THOMAS: He wasn’t naked. He wasn’t naked. He still had a -. I’m going to say he -. I want to say he had a jumper on. He had his jumper how they have - it’s not all the way up to the top right there, but it’s like around the waist. So maybe he had pants on. I do remember he wasn’t totally naked. MR. QJ: okay. MR. THOMAS: And he wasn’t in his boxer shorts or anything like that. But he was just and he had a - he had no shirt on. He didn't have a shirt on. MR. QM: fe didn’t have a shirt on. Alright. Was there -? You said this was still around his neck. When he fell off did that come away from his neck? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. He didn’t have anything around his neck when he came up. Yeah. EFTA00113808

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. And what was it that was around his neck? MR. THOMAS: It was either a sheet or a shirt. I don't know which one it is. A sheet or shirt. I didn’t really pay attention to it. MR. a : Now are the sheets and the shirts both orange? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. So it wasn’t - you weren’t able to tell if it was -. MR. THOMAS: I couldn’t tell you if it was a sheet or a shirt. No I didn’t. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I didn’t look to see what it was. Now what did he look like? MR. THOMAS: Um.... A white male...? I don't know.... MR. a : Was he like completely purple? MR. THOMAS: No, he was - no-no-no-no. Absolutely not. He wasn’t completely -. He was just - he just looked like he’d been hanging like he just hung himself. It wasn’t like he was red or blue or his lips were like a different color. It wasn’t any of that stuff. EFTA00113809

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 He was just -. MR. QJ: tt looked like it happened just recently or like you know -? MR. THOMAS: I mean I’m not a doctor, I couldn’t -- MR. a : Sure-sure-sure. MR. THOMAS: -- tell you if a doctor -. I just -. He didn’t look um. I don't say he didn’t look different. I mean he just -- MR. a : So he -. MR. THOMAS: -- like he just hung himself. It wasn’t no discoloration of anything like that if that’s what you’re trying to get. And it like - like he just hung himself. MR. a : Alright. So you don't - he didn’t’ look at that much different than when he looked when he was alive? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Didn’t look. MR. Ee : He looked pretty much the same? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Just the - not -. MR. ae : Okay. And you said or did you notice anything unusual in his cell when you went in? MR. THOMAS: No. No I didn’t. EFTA00113810

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ee : No? And you said that you started CPR. MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. MR. a : And what did you do -? MR. THOMAS: I started doing chest compressions. MR. a : Just chest compressions? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Just chest compressions. MR. a : Any kind of like mouth- to-mouth type of - MR. THOMAS: No. I didn’t do any mouth- to-mouth. I was doing chest compressions. It took maybe about -. It wasn’t that long before they came with the thing and they started doing all the other stuff. I can’t remember the medic name. The guy. I can’t remember his name. MR. Ee : Alright. So did he stay all kind - was it all kind of right there next to the bed? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, it was right there until - MR. a : Did you have to move him out at all? EFTA00113811

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. THOMAS: No because they did - they was doing the AED and everything right there inside the cell. MR. a : So right in the corner of that bunk? MR. THOMAS: It’s not in the corner it can stretch out like you know -. It’s like right - MR. a : No-no-no, I’m saying for you - when you’re doing your chest compressions. MR. THOMAS: No when I’m doing my chest compressions, he’s laying out like right here. A few feet. Maybe all right here but he’s laying about right here. MR. Ee : So after -. MR. THOMAS: Like about this way. wR. I: okay. MR. THOMAS: Without the wall of course. MR. QJ: | ut: so he was on the floor -- MR. THOMAS: He was on the floor. MR. a : -- while you were doing the -. MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113812

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 2 Wo —] MR. Ee : And you didn’t really have to move him so much -? MR. THOMAS: No I did not. MR. a : After you like moved him from the hanging position to the ground, to the floor -- MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Chest compressions immediately. MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. Ee : Alright. Did you do anything else? MR. THOMAS: Uh. MR. ae : Other than the chest MR. THOMAS: No. Soon thereafter there was a whole bunch of staff there. MR. a : Yeah-yeah-yeah. About how long were you doing chest compressions for? MR. THOMAS: Um.... I don't - maybe a minute or so. I don't - I can’t really recall. MR. ae : You don't remember. MR. THOMAS: It seemed like the blink of an eye before everybody was around me. MR. a : Did he seem like he wa i] EFTA00113813

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dead at that time? MR. THOMAS: No he didn’t. MR. a : He actually seemed like he was alive? MR. THOMAS: Well he didn’t -. I don't really want to say dead or alive. But he was - I was doing chest compressions. I mean I’m not a doctor so anything like that but I just know I just kept going. I don't know if he was dead or anything at that time. MR. a : Did you notice if he had like did you check for a pulse or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: The doctor was there. I know when I was doing chest compressions I didn’t stop to check for a pulse. The - I let the medical staff do that because it was somebody from medical doing that. MR. Ee : So how did you know to do chest compressions if you didn’t -. MR. THOMAS: I mean, I don't know if somebody look like they not breathing or anything like that, he’s not talking, I’m yelling out his name, he’s not -- EFTA00113814

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: -- responding. So. MR. a : Did you check for breath? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I did check for breath. Yeah. MR. a : So prior to doing chest compressions you checked for breath? MR. THOMAS: Yes I checked for breath. Yeah. MR. QJ: | nd how did you do that? MR. THOMAS: I just when I would go like this I was telling Epstein, like “Yo, Epstein - Epstein!” He wasn’t breathing. So that’s my interpretation of checking. I’m yelling. He’s not breathing, he’s not calling to me, he’s not saying anything. MR. Ee : So I guess what I’m asking is so when -. MR. THOMAS: Did I put my hand over here and check for breath? MR. a : Yeah-yeah. MR. THOMAS: No. I did not. MR. a : So you didn’t like -. MR. THOMAS: No. I was yelling for his name and everything to see if he was like doing any like that in there. I’m like, “Epstein - EFTA00113815

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Epstein!” And I’m pushing on his upper torso. MR. a : Alright. SO you didn't feel for a pulse or check for breath. MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't do all that stuff. No. MR. a : Alright. But you believed he wasn’t breathing? MR. THOMAS: I don't believe - I don't know if he was breathing or not. I know he was just hanging, so I was just trying to get him to start. MR. a : So you saw him hanging and just your natural reaction then was to -? MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. MR. a : So you don't actually know if he was breathing or -? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You don’t know if he was breathing. So you don't know if he was alive or not? MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was alive or not. No. MR. a : Okay. So just -. Alright. So you didn’t actually check for anything. You just went right to chest EFTA00113816

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 compressions. MR. THOMAS: Yes yeah went to chest compressions and yelling. And I wasn’t getting no response. MR. a : Okay. Did you like hit him or anything first? MR. THOMAS: No. No. Nah. MR. QJ: | bike trying to wake him up? MR. THOMAS: I just kept yelling his name. and I’m shaking him and doing chest compressions, that should be enough to wake somebody up for somebody to - “hey, hey” like that and I didn’t =. MR. a : Did they teach you CPR though? MR. THOMAS: Yes. That’s part of the ART. MR. a : Did they teach you that prior to doing CPR you’re supposed to like check to see if they’re alive first? MR. THOMAS: Prior to CPR the standard model is check for airways and everything like that. But in the course of the moment, I didn’t slow down and say let me see I check for responsiveness. And that’s exactly what I did. EFTA00113817

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 When I’m yelling your name, that’s checking for a response. wR. QJ: Right. MR. THOMAS: I wasn’t getting any response. MR. a : Okay. No, the only reason I’m going more into details is because you said you weren’t sure if he was alive or not. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Um, um. Alright. MR. THOMAS: I understand. MR. a : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. I’m just trying to figure out if there’s more questions I need to ask with regard to that -- MR. THOMAS: No problem. MR. ae : -- specifics. Um. At any time when you were doing chest compressions or any of that, did he ever open his eyes or seem to take a breath or -? MR. THOMAS: Not that I recall. I don't remember really. MR. QJ: Okay. =m. Alright. Did Noel ever enter the cell to assist you? MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't remember. I EFTA00113818

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) remember seeing her. I don't know if she wa 7] in the cell. There were so many people in that cell in such a short period of time, so I really don't remember if she was one of the people or not. I can only remember actually two faces at this present time. One is the medical person I can’t remember his name and the other one is uh, um, a. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : How do you spell | MR. a : | id Okay. Who is MR. THOMAS: Officer. MR. Ee : Just an officer that came in response? MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : And I’m sorry, you may have said this but I don't recall. When you - after you did chest compressions, you said you did it for like a minute before they responded. MR. THOMAS: Um, yeah. Maybe about a minute. Nothing more than a minute. EFTA00113819

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like - MR. a : So immediately almost? MR. THOMAS: It seemed like a flash. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: It seemed like a flash that everybody was there inside the room. MR. a : Okay. And when they came in what did they do? MR. THOMAS: Uh once the medical staff - uh I can’t remember his name. Once he came and was doing chest compressions, I know I got a little exhausted and tired and everything like that. He was doing chest compressions. He put the AED on and um, that’s about all I can remember that that guy put the AED on and I know he told me to stand back. MR. ae : Alright. And did you - did he check for breath or a pulse or -? MR. THOMAS: I really can’t remember exactly -- MR. QR: 90. MR. THOMAS: -- his and what he did exactly. MR. a : Do you know when they put the AED on? Did it ever advise for shock or EFTA00113820

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 anything like that? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, I don't remember. 3 MR. a : You don't recall? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 5 MR. a : So when they came in, did 6 you stay in the room or at that point -? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I stayed in the room. 8 MR. a : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I actually helped to carry 10 him downstairs. 11 MR. Ee : Alright. And was the 2 medical personnel =? 3 MR. THOMAS: He was with us the whole 4 time. 15 MR. a : And what was his name? 16 MR. THOMAS: I really can’t - 7 MR. J: «No? 8 MR. THOMAS: Um. 9 MR. Ee : But he’s the one who took 20 over chest compressions? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah he took over chest 22 compressions. He was in the room the while 23 time. 24 MR a : Alright. And you said 25 you were trained on CPR though? EFTA00113821

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Do you know when the last time you were trained on CPR? MR. THOMAS: Had to be ART. MR. a : ART? Are you always every year trained on CPR? MR. THOMAS: Every year at ART there’s trainings. MR. a : Okay. So like April of 2019 would have been the last time? MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : Um. Alright. So after medical emergency called, what -? Walk me through that a little bit in detail. What happened? So he came. The medical person comes in. He starts going chest compressions. About how long is he doing them? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know how long he was doing them before he put the AED on. I couldn’t tell you how long he was on before he actually put the AED. Because the AED - right on the -. Right - you see the one right there. In SHU. I know there’s one right there on the 9th floor. So I don't know how long ago that he was doing chest compressions EFTA00113822

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 before he actually put the AED on. I couldn’t tell you a specific time like 30 second. I don't know. MR. a : And at that time did you believe that he was alive or dead? MR. THOMAS: I was just -. I had so many things going through my mind. I was just hoping everything worked out. MR. QR: Okay. MR. THOMAS: I’m -. MR. a : So what was going through your mind at the time? MR. THOMAS: A whole lot. What’s going on. There’s a man in front of me, you know what I mean. That’s it. Just that it’s a man in front of me - hanging. I just seen him hanging. MR. a : yeah-yeah-yeah. Had you ever had to respond to something like that before? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : So you’ve actually had to take people off from hanging and things? MR. THOMAS: No. I’ve responded to like - I’ve maybe seen one other hanging, but they cut EFTA00113823

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 him down and like that but he was actually gotten alive when they were (Indiscernible *02:53:33). But yeah, I’ve seen a few. MR. a : Okay. And you have to do the same type of a thing? MR. THOMAS: Well nothing to for where they had to put the AED on a person. Just some chest compressions and they were revived and -. MR. a : Anybody else die from it? MR. THOMAS: Not that I would recall. No. MR. a : No. Alright. But now you did say you ripped it down. You didn’t cut it down. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I just tipped it down. MR. a : In the past they’ ve actually cut it down is what you just said? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Oh. I thought you just said that people were hanging and they cut it down MR. THOMAS: Maybe if they cut it or if they ripped it down. I don't know. Whatever they had at their disposal at that time. MR. a : Okay. Though did you ever have to -? EFTA00113824

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Cut somebody down? No. MR. a : Cut somebody -? No? MR. THOMAS: This was my first one. MR. a : That was your first time ever being the first responder? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. es : Okay. And do they train you on that? On if you come in and find someone hanging what you’re supposed to do? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember specific training on like that but I know -. If I’m not mistaken, it’s life, limb, or something for the bureau or something. I know I’m not supposed to just let somebody sit there and hang. MR. a : Yeah-yep. No, I’m just saying like do they teach you how to like respond to these things? MR. THOMAS: I - mm. Maybe it’s something in ART training. I don't know. MR. a : Okay. So you know CPR was done in ART but you’re not sure if it was in response to what -? MR. THOMAS: It’s in a particular response to if you see somebody hanging you do this. No. EFTA00113825

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Right. Okay. But is that something that occurs a lot? People inmates hanging themselves at the MCC? MR. THOMAS: Not a lot but you know sometimes people have you don't know what someone else’s stressor is or what -- MR. a : Sure. MR. THOMAS: -- they’re going through at home. Or what they’re in for. MR. a : Yeah. I guess what I’m asking is like does this happen like once a week, once a month, or once a year? MR. THOMAS: I’ve been there for 14 years. He’s been there a lot longer than me. Um. I’ve seen maybe about 7 hangings. MR. Ee : Seven hangings in that? Okay. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : So if you were to estimate about one every two years? MR. THOMAS: If you want to break it down to that. MR. QJ: Okay. what did you do after the medical emergency was called? MR. THOMAS: After I got him down to the - EFTA00113826

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. a : No, I’m sorry. After they responded, what did you do? MR. THOMAS: After they responded, I helped carry him downstairs. MR. a : You did help them? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I helped them on the stretcher carry him downstairs. MR. a : Now downstairs -. MR. THOMAS: To the second floor. MR. QJ: sto the -. MR. THOMAS: To the medical floor. It’s the second floor. MR. ae : So you went all the way from the SHU all the way to the second floor? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. ae : Okay. And you were with them the whole time? MR. THOMAS: Yes. I was with them the whole time. And the medical staff was with me. And it was a bunch of other people in the elevator at that time. MR. a : And what were you doing during that time? MR. THOMAS: I was holding the stretcher. EFTA00113827

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Because you were one of the people -? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. MR. a : So was it just you and someone else? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Me and three other people holding the stretcher. I don't (Indiscernible *02:56:01) who else was there holding the, staff, help bringing him down. MR. a : So it was an actual stretcher that you had to carry, not something that was like moving him? MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. It’s not a stretcher. They have stretchers on the wall and near like that that you have to carry. You get him to the thing and then you just go. MR. ae : Did they continue life- saving efforts? MR. THOMAS: The whole time. MR. a : So while he was being moved in the stretcher, people were like doing compressions? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Mm-hmm. MR. a : Was there anything like on his face trying to give him air or anything EFTA00113828

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 253 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 like that? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't really remember. MR. a : Okay. Do you have pictures of that stuff? Yeah. We actually have a ton of pictures. For each (Indiscernible *02:56:48). Do you remember - recall was this like in the -? MR. THOMAS: This is in medical. MR. a : That’s in medical? MR. THOMAS: It looks like. I don't know if that’s - 9th floor. Is that for -? No that says right here. That’s EMS. MR. QM: «that’s ems. Alright. So this isn’t anything that’s in the cell or anything like what we’re talking about? MR. THOMAS: No. That’s not. No-no-no, that’s not. MR. Ee : This is all after the medical? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That’s all medical. MR. a : Do you know if any pictures were taken while you were doing this medical emergency? MR. THOMAS: I doubt it. I’m sure nobody EFTA00113829

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LIMITED wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 OFFICIAL USE 254 stopped to grab a camera. MR. a : Yeah. No. Just because we have all these. MR. THOMAS: And again, I’m not still. I didn’t mean nothing by (Indiscernible *02:57:29). MR. a : So none of these pictures have anything to do with you? I mean they’re not. MR. THOMAS: No. No. I wasn’t. MR. a : Were you even in the room during that? MR. THOMAS: I wasn’t in the room for none of that. MR. a : Okay. It doesn’t look like we have any pictures of that stuff. But - So from the SHU all the way down to the second floor, you stay with him. You were carrying the stretcher, and someone was doing compressions. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And trying to revive him. MR. THOMAS: So you said that | | responded and a medical personnel. MR. THOMAS: I remember seeing | | and EFTA00113830

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 medical persons. It lieutenant was there. lieutenant was? MR. THOMAS: No. there. || sound familiar? you recall? MR. THOMAS: MR. i maybe was there. ve. duty agent roster. MR. THOMAS: It the morning. a MR. THOMAS: But prior but he probably probably him? And do was - I’m sure the That’s just -. Do you remember who the I can’t remember who was Does Lieutenant | Does that make or help THOMAS: I mean maybe I don't -. So we can go back to that shows that he came on in Yeah. you know that two hour So you think it was you remember making any statements after the medical emergency ride? MR. THOMAS: Id I could have been say like I said, I just s on't remember what I said. ing a whole lot. I mean een a man hanging. Sure. EFTA00113831

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: You know, I don’t remember exactly verbatim what I said or anything. MR. a : Do you recall Noel saying we didn’t do our rounds at 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall her saying that. MR. QR: Alright. MR. THOMAS: I was (Indiscernible *02:58:49) . I don't remember seeing Noel after this actually. After I carried him downstairs, I don’t even remember seeing Noel. MR. a : Do you recall saying to Noel that we didn’t do the rounds. We messed - Or - hold on. Did you say that it was not Noel’s fault and say we didn’t do the rounds? We messed up. MR. THOMAS: I don't remember saying that. I could have said it. I don't remember saying it. MR. a : So you don't remember saying it’s not her fault. MR. THOMAS: No. I don't remember saying anything. I could have said -. Like I said I don't know what I said exactly from that time. EFTA00113832

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It was three years ago. But -. MR. a : Alright. So my only question was so that’s the statement we have is that you stated she said we didn’t do the rounds. And you said we didn’t do the rounds. We messed up. It’s not Noel’s fault. And I was just wondering why you would say that it wasn’t her fault. MR. THOMAS: I don't. MR. a : Do you remember like -? MR. THOMAS: I really don't. I really don't. MR. a : Yeah. You were just uttering things. MR. THOMAS: Just uttering things like I said. I don't remember saying that. I don't remember not saying it. I don't remember when that was said or who said that I said that. Like I said I don't remember saying that. MR. a : Okay. So it wasn’t like -. The only reason that I asked is that, it sounds like you were taking responsibility for the rounds and counts. And I was just wanting to know if there was a reason why you would have been taking responsibility. Like we said, 257 EFTA00113833

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you’re both responsible. I don't know why you would -- MR. THOMAS: (Indiscernible *03:00:03) MR. a : -- take responsibility over her in saying it’s not her fault? MR. THOMAS: I don't know why I said anything like that if I said it. MR. a : You don't know. MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I don't remember saying it. MR. a : Okay. Um. MR. THOMAS: There was a lot going on. I really -. MR. QJ: Alright. So what is your understanding of how Epstein died? MR. THOMAS: Um, it’s been two years. He died from a hanging. MR. a : So do you believe he died from hanging? Do you believe he died from someone trying to murder - or someone hurting him? Do you believe that he died from the medical response? MR. THOMAS: I’m not a medical professional. I don't know. I’ve seen so many things and I’m faced with so many things. They EFTA00113834

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 just said that he died from a hanging. MR. a : And being the first responder to the person in there. Do you believe that is how he died now? Because you said, again, previously when I was asking you said I don't know if he was alive or dead. Do you believe he did die from hanging? MR. THOMAS: I never believe he died. I don't believe the conspiracy that somebody snuck into the jail catapulted -. MR. MITCHELL: Just answer the questions - MR. THOMAS: Oh. MR. MITCHELL: -- yes or no. MR. THOMAS: Oh. No. I mean yes, I believe he died from hanging. MR. ee: You do believe he died hanging. Alright. And do you believe that Epstein took his own life? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Did anyone else take Epstein’s life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? Did anyone assist Epstein in taking his life? EFTA00113835

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 ~] wo 10 11 MR. THOMAS: Ah, no. MR. a : Um, did Noel take Epstein’s life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : These are questions that we just have to ask because you guys are the first to be there and you guys were the ones on duty. MR. THOMAS: I’m here with you. MR. a : Did Noel assist Epstein with taking his life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Did you assist Epstein with taking his life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : Did you take Epstein’s life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : Did you have any part in Epstein’s death? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. ae : Prior to Epstein dying, did you have any communication - verbal, electronic, handwritten, or otherwise with anyone - BOP staff members or otherwise -. So EFTA00113836

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 civilians, inmates, anybody - about the safety and wellbeing of Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Prior to Epstein dying, did you have any communications - verbal, electronic, handwritten, or otherwise - with anyone - - BOP staff members or otherwise -. So civilians, inmates, anybody - about the death of Epstein or taking Epstein’s life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Did anyone ever offer you anything, such as something of value or favors, with regard to harming Epstein or taking his life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : Did anyone ever threaten you in exchange for harming Epstein or taking Epstein’s life? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Were any of your family members? MR. THOMAS: No. Absolutely not. MR. a : So now we’re getting more back into the administrative stuff. Why wasn’t Epstein in his assigned cell on August 10, EFTA00113837

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2019? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Are cell rotations - do they occur with inmates in the SHU? That you have to move them ever certain amount of days? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QM: «Alright. who is responsible? MR. THOMAS: That’s the SHU lieutenants. MR. a : That falls on the SHU lieutenant? MR. THOMAS: Yeah from the SHU lieutenant. Well it falls on the SHU lieutenant to pass down to the staff members when they’re going to do cell rotations or anything like that. MR. Ee : Alright. MR. THOMAS: It’s something that’s tracked. If I’m not mistaken, it might be tracked computerly. I don't know. MR. QJ: | that so -. In the computer, who is responsible for making that change in the computer? MR. THOMAS: Oh I don't know. MR. a : Did you know Epstein was not in his assigned cell? EFTA00113838

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : So this is the first you’re hearing that? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. Is that something that you guys are supposed to monitor or do when you’re in the SHU during your assignment? Are you supposed to make sure that inmates are in their assigned cells? MR. THOMAS: When I come on at 12:00, that’s all taken care of from - you don't move anybody at 12:00 at midnight. MR. a : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I just didn’t know if that’s something that you guys are supposed to like pay attention to. Like alright, this guys is supposed to be in this cell. This guy’s supposed to be in that cell. MR. THOMAS: It’s 70-something inmates or something. If 15 inmates come down on short staff and they got to move, maybe all 15 won’t get done, so maybe somebody is in a 21-day rotation, they’re probably laid over for like five or whatever couple days. But I don't know as far as you’re going by cell rotation and oh his cell rotations is up 21 days and he wasn’t EFTA00113839

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 moved there and he was in the wrong cell. I don't know that. I don't know. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I’m not custody. I wouldn’t deal with all that. MR. a : Okay. So who - I’m assuming it’s the officers who actually move them physically to different cells? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Who goes into the system and changes it in that BOP database? Would that also be the officers? MR. THOMAS: Officers or the operations - or the SHU lieutenant. MR. a : Okay. But that is nothing that’s done at that 12:00 a.m. to - MR. THOMAS: That is nothing that’s done at 12:00 a.m. No it’s not. MR. Ee : Alright. Do you know why pill bottles were found within Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: No I do not. MR. a : It’s - are they - inmates allowed to have medication within their cells? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure some are allowed. Yes. EFTA00113840

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : They are allowed? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure that some are allowed medications. I don't know what medications they need or anything like that. MR. a : Do you recall ever seeing - here’s a picture I’m showing you with medication that was in Epstein’s cell. Do you recall seeing this? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Does that look like something that he would be authorized to have with that much medication? MR. THOMAS: I don't know what they are. I don't know what they’re authorized and what they’ re not authorized. MR. Ee : Okay. Just because I showed it to you, can you do you mind just initialing and dating it? MR. THOMAS: I’m sorry. I keep closing this. MR. a : Nah, no worries. And so you don't know anything about like policies are related to what they’re authorized or not authorized -? MR. THOMAS: As far as that? No. EFTA00113841

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Would that be up to like medical? MR. THOMAS: Medical. Yes. MR. a : Okay. Are you familiar just in general, non-medical related, what inmates are authorized and not authorized -? MR. THOMAS: No I’m not. MR. a : You’re not even familiar with -- MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. MR. a : -- what they can and can’t have in their cells? MR. THOMAS: No I’m not. No. MR. QJ: Do you know if the SHU is any different than the rest of the institution of what inmates can and cannot have in their cell? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Absolutely. I’m sure it’s if (Indiscernible *03:06:02) different I don't know though because I’m sure it’s different because that’s the 23 on 1 so I’m sure it’s different from a regular housing unit on there to walk around. MR. a : What’s 23 on 1 now? MR. THOMAS: They’re locked down 23 hours EFTA00113842

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a day == MR. a : oh. MR. THOMAS: -- and then 1 hour is rec. MR. a : Um but as far as what they’ re allowed to have in their cells. MR. THOMAS: No I don’t know the book version of what they’re allowed and what they’re not allowed. MR. a : So do you know of other inmates are allowed to have medications in their cell at this time? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You don't know. How many changes of clothing and linens are allowed in inmates’ cells within the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. ae : You don't know. MR. THOMAS: That’s something that would be done prior to my shift. MR. QJ: Sure. So does this look like an exorbitant amount of closing and linens that are in Mr. Epstein’s cell in these pictures? MR. THOMAS: It looks like a lot um, but that could have just been -. I don't know what EFTA00113843

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that’s from the previous inmate that’s left over that they didn’t take his stuff. like again, I don't know. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: The inmate that left, they didn’t take his linen or not. And you can’t tell from these pictures which is ripped up and what is not ripped up is. Most inmates will get a bed sheet, rip it up, and put it up as all types of stuff that goes on. But I don't know if that’s something doing or not. It has to be broken down to alright, this is seven sheets. And if I have seven sheets or something like that then yes that’s excessive. But other than that, I don't know what they’re supposed to have within - what they’re not supposed to have, one sheet, one -. I really don't know. MR. QJ: «Sts it supposed to be a one-for-one exchange? MR. THOMAS: Yes. It’s a one-for-one exchange. MR. a : So they’re only technically supposed to have one -. MR. THOMAS: It’s two sheets one blanket I EFTA00113844

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 think it is. Or one blanket, one sheet, and one towel and one washcloth. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: And I can’t remember the full thing. MR. a : And do you -? MR. THOMAS: That’s not something that happens on morning watch. That’s something that happens prior to the morning watch when I stayed there from 12:00 to 1:00. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: That’s not something I have. 12:00 to 1:00 you don’t take the inmates out. MR. QJ: Sure. so - MR. a : And I don't know and you don't give them anything unless somebody’s coming in off the street. It’s already pre-bed was made that you're giving to them to put this over here. And usually they try to put them on G tier, single cell until they can find out what their affiliation is or anything like that. MR. a : Okay. But to you though, if there’s one person in that cell, does that look like it’s too much linen and too much EFTA00113845

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 clothing? MR. THOMAS: Like again, I can’t tell what’s ripped up and what’s not ripped up. MR. a : Okay. But -. Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating these? MR. a: I’ve just got a question. Did the cell look like that when you walked in? MR. THOMAS: Uh, I don't remember the clothes and stuff being on the floor. I don't remember that much linen being on the floor. I just remember -. Honestly I couldn’t tell you what’s there so I just remember him hanging on this side. MR. MITCHELL: Break’s already (Indiscernible *03:08:48) MR. Ee : Push pause? Alright. We're being asked to take a break. It is currently -- MR. THOMAS: 1:26. Oops. MR. a : -- 1:26 p.m. This is Senior Special Agent | FY and I am pushing pause on the recorder. [Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and went back on the record.] Alright. The recorder is back on. It is 1:38 p.m. on June EFTA00113846

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 ~] wo 10 11 17, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent [Rg ae We are resuming the interview. I just remind you it is a voluntary interview and you are under oath. Alright. So where we left off was we were talking about the linens. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : And we were showing you the pictures. MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. MR. a : Did you provide Epstein with any additional clothing or linens? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Po : Ever? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No. Is that anything that would typically happen between the hours that you work? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : 12:00 to 8:00 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Okay. Is providing inmates with extra clothing and linens a MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't -. I don't know if it’s a security risk or anything EFTA00113847

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 like that because I know when -. I don't know. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : And when - we touched on this but when inmates are provided linens, is it supposed to be a one-for-one exchange? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. And is that typically what they are utilizing in order to do things like hang themselves? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I really don't know what’s the typical thing. MR. a : That’s what they used in this case though it appears? MR. THOMAS: Yeah that’s what it appears in this case. You see the sheet or a shirt. I don't know what it is. MR. a : Okay. And somebody on suicide watch. Do you think it’s abnormal? Again, you didn’t provide the linens. But do you think that’s abnormal if he had extra linens if he was someone that was just on suicide watch? Or a -? MR. THOMAS: It’s not abnormal for someone to have extra linen and -. EFTA00113848

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : It’s not? MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. MR. a : So is that a -? If it’s supposed to be a one-for-one exchange is that like a constant problem then at the MCC? MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world. Ina perfect world it couldn’t be but I like I said, I’m not custody. I’m not always up there like that. And when, as you can see, all the linen and that stuff is already done. MR. a : Okay. And again, we talked about his briefly. But what material was used to take Epstein’s life in August 2019? MR. THOMAS: I don't know what is that a sheet or a shirt? I don't know exactly what it is. MR. ae : This orange cotton which could be either -- MR. THOMAS: A sheet or a shirt. MR. a : -- a sheet or a shirt. Okay. MR. THOMAS: A sheet or a shirt. MR. a : Does this appear to be what it was that removed from Mr. Epstein? MR. THOMAS: It appears to be. Yes. EFTA00113849

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. Can you just walk me through? Like this thing specifically looks like it’s still intact. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Did you have to rip it off or slide it over his head? MR. THOMAS: No, not -. What are you talking about was this still intact? Yeah. I took that off his head. I guess I took it off his head. I don't remember I did, but I guess I took it off him. But like I said when I ripped it, it was tied to the other portion of it. MR. QJ: Okay. So maybe -. MR. THOMAS: That’s what I mean when I ripped it off, like that just when I just pulled it off. MR. a : Okay. So maybe it could have also been possible was that this part that’s what was actually connected and this is the part that you possibly ripped? MR. THOMAS: Just pushed off. Yeah like that. It probably just slipped through or whatever the case be through that. MR. a: Okay. But um so you EFTA00113850

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 w ~] ripped it. You said you ripped it off. MR. THOMAS: Yeah ripped it. I just ripped it from the piece that’s still dangling. MR. a : You don't recall actually sliding it? MR. THOMAS: I don’t recall. If it’s still intact, maybe it did. I don't recall taking it off but -- MR. a : Yeah-yeah-yeah, and again, I don’t know that that was what was actually around his neck. MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : But that does appear to be probably what was around his neck? MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. Ee : Is that correct? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You’re not exactly sure. MR. THOMAS: I’m not exactly sure. MR. QJ: But: does that look like something like what you recall when you did take if off of him? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. Just because I showed it, you want to just initial and date. EFTA00113851

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i. you had a couple of follow-up questions. Can you do that now? MR. a: Okay. MR. a : With regard to when you conducted the (Indiscernible MR. THOMAS: No problem. MR. QJ: 9 well he -. Agent QJ just mentioned it too. So you walked in. And is Epstein to your right or your left? MR. THOMAS: My right. MR. a: Okay. And when you see him, right. Is he hanging? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QJ: 9 And where was in comparison to this - sorry. In comparison to this picture, whereabouts what his head? MR. THOMAS: Maybe a little bit below the circle. Maybe about right here I guess. I don't -. I can’t remember exactly or maybe a little bit below the circle. MR. a: And was his whole body on the floor? Was his butt on the floor? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a: What part of his body was on the floor? EFTA00113852

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall what was on the floor. I don't think anything was on the floor. I don't really remember. MR. a : Was his legs on the floor? Feet on the floor? MR. THOMAS: Well I’m going to say his feet was on the floor? MR. QJ: 9 You would assume because it doesn’t look that high. MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Because it doesn’t’ have the - yeah. MR. a : So you think his feet were on the floor? MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember exactly. But I mean I would assume his feet was on the floor. MR. a : So when you saw the - now see there’s a knot on the noose right here. What part of the neck was the knot on? Like when you see it, did you try to loosen it or tried to take it off, what part of the neck was that on? Do you recall at all? MR. THOMAS: I really don't. I really don't. MR. a: And when you pulled it. It EFTA00113853

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 looks like there’s a portion left back on here. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a: Was that attached to this? MR. THOMAS: I don't -. like he said, he said that was the portion that -. like I said, when I remember ripping all that down, I don't know if I just if it slipped through or whatever the case may be. I just remember going like this and he going to the ground. And then we started doing chest compressions. MR. a: And he came off easily? MR. THOMAS: Yes he came off easily. It didn’t come off too hard. MR. a : And you don't recall trying to -? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall taking the noose off. I really don't. I don't recall taking the thing from around his neck. MR. a: Do you remember if the linen ripped so it’s separated from this or if this is possibly the same thing as that? Do you recall when you ripped it. Do you remember if it like tore and broke and came into two separate pieces? MR. THOMAS: I don't. 278 EFTA00113854

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. EN: No? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. a: So when you looked into his cell. Was the lights on and stuff? MR. THOMAS: I want to say the lights was on. I think the lights was on. MR. a : Okay. You knocked on the cell. And he didn’t answer. So you had to open it? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a: Do you recall actually opening the - turning the key to open the cell or was the cell already open? MR. THOMAS: Nah. The cell was - I had to open the cell. MR. a: Okay. And you walked in. You saw this. Now I want to - in this picture, I saw something. This picture right here. The one you initialed. You see the mattress on the floor? MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : Was that on the floor when you walked in? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I don’t know. EFTA00113855

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Because he would have been technically he would have been laying here, right? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, he’s off to -- MR. a: On the right side? MR. THOMAS: -- the side. Yeah, you can’t see the -. You can’t see this side right here. But he’s off to this side. MR. QJ: «ana -. MR. THOMAS: Because there’s a lip like you said there’s a lip right here is covering that side of the wall. MR. a : And this mattress. Where does that belong. Up here on top? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If that one’s on the floor yeah, that belongs on the top. MR. a : And you don't recall all of this laying around or anything? MR. THOMAS: No I don't. No I don't. MR. a: We’re just trying to get an idea. Was the cell a mess or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: It could be a totally different things because I’ve seen inmates like it looked like that and they mattress on the EFTA00113856

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 floor. Some inmates sleep on the floor. Just because it’s a bunkbed, they don't have to sleep on the top. Some people just sleep on the floor. And then. I mean, I’m just saying because all that stuff was up top there, maybe he just slept on the floor. I don't know. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : Alright. Now we’re going back to the linens. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Was Epstein given any special privileges to have extra clothing? Or linens? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : You’re not sure. If he was, what shift would typically take care of that. MR. THOMAS: It could be day watch or evening watch. MR. a : So either of the two other shifts? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. a : Okay. Was - do you know if anything was in Epstein’s cell that should not have been in there? EFTA00113857

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. a : Can you tell me a little bit about cell searches and how they work in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Um.... They usually conduct it on the day shift. Because that’s when most people are around just in case you have an uncooperative inmate. And you check the cell for contraband. Contraband can be anywhere from a leftover tray being in there to too much papers. Inmates who get mail, too many papers left in there which is called nuisance trash. MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: But it all depends on anybody else. Who is conducting it. MR. a : And this isn’t regarding your specific shift. I mean it discussed your shift, but for cell searches this shows it’s the MCC New York Special Post Order Special Housing Unit. For here it says, “All SHU staff are expected to conduct searches of the special housing unit. The morning watch officer will conduct searches of the common areas and document their findings in the search section of the TruScape program. The day watch EFTA00113858

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 officers will conduct a search of every inmate’s cell who attends recreation. The evening watch officers will conduct a minimum of five cell searches during their shift. The entire special housing unit will be searched each and every week.” Um, do you know, is that your understanding of what the policy is? MR. THOMAS: Uh, yes. MR. a : Do you know if the other - if MCC was following this policy? The officers that were assigned. Were they actually conducting -- ? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. MR. a : Um do you have any knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I’m sure that they do. like I said, I’m not custody up there during the day and during the evening, so I don't know what their - what time and no specific time when those have to be done. So I don't know. MR. a : Alright. And again, just because I showed it to you. Do you mind just initialing page 5 of 14 on the uh special post EFTA00113859

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 w ~] wo 10 11 orders for the SHU? Do you know of any interactions that Epstein had with other inmates? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No. And you said the last time that you interacted with Epstein was when you fed him the morning before? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : And I apologize now it was so many hours ago, what was his state of mind? At the time? Could you tell? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Did he seem unusual? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. No? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Did it at all strike you that maybe he was getting ready to kill himself or anything? MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. No. MR. a : In distress? No? Did he complain about anything? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Did you talk with him at all? EFTA00113860

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 wi 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. a : You didn’t say good 3 morning or anything? 4 MR. THOMAS: If I did, I don't remember. 5 If I did say, here’s your tray. 6 FFE o you know of any Oo 7 threats that were made to Epstein? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. a : Do you know why Epstein 10 was in prison? 11 MR. THOMAS: Now I do, yes. 2 MR. a : Did you at the time? 3 MR. THOMAS: I really didn’t know who 4 Epstein was. 15 MR. QJ: vou didn’t? 16 MR. THOMAS: Or the stipulations behind 7 everything behind him. No. 8 MR. a : Alright. So at the time, 9 did you have any specific feelings in regard to 20 -- 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. ae : -- Epstein? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. a : No? Did you speak about 25 Epstein with other inmates? EFTA00113861

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: No MR. a : No. When the medical emergency was discovered, do you believe that you and Noel acted appropriately per BOP policy? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. es : Were you and/or Noel supposed to take immediate action or should have you waited for responding staff? MR. THOMAS: I think we’re supposed to take immediate action. MR. a : Okay. Did BOP policy say that you should have called a lieutenant and wait for their arrival prior to entering Epstein’s cell? MR. THOMAS: I don't know what the policy says. MR. a : Yeah-yeah. So is it -? Have you ever been taught that like it could be a ruse and if you go in there by yourself without responding staff, they could then overtake you and then potentially have you as a hostage? MR. THOMAS: Yes, I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that before. But then I’ve always heard EFTA00113862

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 it has to be two staff members to one inmate. MR. THOMAS: And me and Noel was there. MR. a : Okay. So you believe because Noel was there you followed the policy? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yeah. MR. QM: Okay. MR. THOMAS: I’m not worried about. MR. a : So you said that after the medical emergency, you actually went down with them to the second floor. Did anything happen with Epstein’s body on the way? Did you guys like drop the stretcher -- MR. THOMAS: No. MR. Ee : -- or anything like that? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : He remained - his body maintained? What about when you were getting him on to the stretcher? Was he - did he doa smooth transition from the floor up to the stretcher? MR. THOMAS: As far as I can remember. I don't really recall directly, but -- MR. a: You don't remember -- EFTA00113863

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: -- I don't think it was any different. MR. a : -- him dropping or landing -- MR. THOMAS: No, I don't -- MR. a : -- on anything like that? MR. THOMAS: -- remember any of that. MR. a : What about when he was going from the stretcher to whatever they put they put him on when you got to the second floor? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, once we got to the second floor and he got into the room, I was hands-off though. There were so many other people around, I didn’t - I wasn’t part of that. MR. ae : And did you leave at that time? Leave that room? MR. THOMAS: Yes, I left that room at that time. MR. a : Where did you go? And what did you do? MR. THOMAS: Um....um.... I don't remember exactly where I went. I think I went to my office and then I stepped outside. EFTA00113864

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ee : Okay. Did any supervisors or staff talk to you about the incident? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? Did you make any statements to anyone? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Did you sign any paperwork? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : What time did your shift end? MR. THOMAS: Right after that incident. MR. QM: Okay. So what time did you depart the MCC approximately? MR. THOMAS: I, uh, maybe about 9:30-ish I guess. MR. a : Alright. So it happened at like 6:33, but you did stay until -? MR. THOMAS: No, I stayed until because about 8 - let’s say about 8:00 something because when I was trying to leave and go home, I kept getting calls of course from everybody then and then um, uh, and the warden called me. And told me he was just concerned about me EFTA00113865

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 ~] wo 10 11 because of what I’ve seen and me being traumatized and so he sent somebody to come talk to me and they met me further down from the thing to come talk to me. MR. THOMAS: Somebody from the crisis wr support team -- MR. a : Okay. MR. THOMAS: --came to talk to me. MR. a : Alright. So probably around 8-ish is when you’re thinking? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, about 8-ish or so. MR. a : Okay. Did you handle or touch any of Epstein’s files or paperwork on -- MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: « -- august 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : During your shift, would you - do you ever -- MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : -- handle any files? MR. THOMAS: No. They’re in their sleeping. No, we don't touch any of those. vR. QE: «oun... MR. THOMAS: You’re talking about any EFTA00113866

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 files inside his cell? MR. a : No, the files that you guys have that you maintain for the inmates. MR. THOMAS: No, I didn’t touch any of MR. a : I think they are called 292s or something. MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah. No, I didn’t touch any of those things. MR. a : And do you ever touch them during your shifts? fa MR. THOMAS: During a shift? No. MR. SR: 0? MR. THOMAS: Well excuse me. Let me change that. After you finish feeding, you mark that you fed everybody. But that’s not a paperwork thing, I think - if I’m not mistaken that’s done on the computer. MR. Ee : Okay. So that’s not something you do -- MR. THOMAS: Yeah. MR. ae : -- like on August 9th, you wouldn’t have gone into Epstein’s file? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a: Have you ever seen 291 EFTA00113867

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 ~] wo 10 11 Epstein’s file? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? Do you know anybody that did potentially remove files from Epstein’s files? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : Do you know that anybody that went back into the SHU and removed any like tags or documents or -? MR. THOMAS: I was gone. I don't know. MR. Ee : Okay. But did you remove anything from the office? MR. THOMAS: I didn't remove any. No. MR. QR: No? MR. a: Can I ask, do you know where the file is kept? MR. THOMAS: Ah, no. MR. a : And so you never removed or destroyed any of Epstein’s paperwork? MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. MR. a : And you never removed or destroyed any signs related to Epstein? MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. MR. a : That were up in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. EFTA00113868

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. Ee : Um, did you ever access 2 any BOP databases such as BOPWARE, Sentry, 3 TruView, after Epstein was discovered on August 4 10th? MR. THOMAS: No. I haven’t been back to w itution. No. 7 MR. a : No? And you can only that from the institution? oO co wu Qa Q i] 7) n wo F Exactly. 10 MR. a : Did you ever disci 11 anyone altering any documents? i) a co n it) 2 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. ive) Fs) Removing any documents? 9 z 4 MR I did not. 15 MR Accessing any BOP 16 databases 7 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. Lee) 5 No. Did anyone tell you 9 that 20 they did not. 21 -- destroyed anything? they did not. 23 MR. a : Moved anything? No, sir. 25 MR. a : Or access to any EFTA00113869

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE databases? MR. THOMAS: No, shifts MR. THOMAS: No. _. a: administrative leave? MR. THOMAS: Yes MR. MR. THOMAS: can’t remember what my letter warden I guess. you directly? MR. MR. THOMAS: Um, informed you? MR. THOMAS: Yes letter say? MR. THOMAS leave pretty much. THOMAS : MR. MR. following August 10, Whoever is sir. Have you reported for any 2 bs 2019? No. Were you placed on By whom? in charge. I It’s the says. So they didn’t speak to no. I got a letter in Okay. What did the I’m placed on administrative Oh. And a whole bunch of pending EFTA00113870

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 something. I can’t remember exact lettering - 2 wording that they said. 3 MR. a : Okay. And is that what 4 you remain on now? Administrative leave? w MR. THOMAS: Um, no. I’m on -. 6 MR. a : Indefinite suspension? MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. a : Did you communicate with ~] 9 Noel after Epstein’s body was discovered? 10 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 11 MR. a : So you have not 12 communicated with her since? 13 MR. THOMAS: Uh, besides one time we had a 14 sit-down and talk after the case was over. 15 Well after the um, the thing, we just hada 16 union meeting. That was it. 17 MR. ae : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: And she did come there and 19 that type of thing. But we didn’t discuss the 20 case 21 MR. a : You didn’t discuss the 22 case? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, we did not. 24 MR. a : Okay. So who from the 25 MCC have you communicated with regarding EFTA00113871

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Epstein’s incident on August 10th? MR. THOMAS: Nobody. MR. I: = No one? MR. THOMAS: Nobody. MR. a : I’m assuming aside from your union representative? MR. THOMAS: Well I just actually just started to him more often. But yeah. MR. a : Okay. So he would be the only one? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Him. The union president. MR. a : Okay. Can 10 S - and this is something that I just thought of when you just took a break - something that I realized I didn’t ask. Can 10 South obtain access to the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. Ee : And can they do that without anyone allowing them to enter? MR. THOMAS: No-no. You’re talking about from the outside? No. MR. QM: so —-« MR. THOMAS: They have to come through the SHU to get to 10 South. There’s no other way EFTA00113872

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 w ~] ive) from anybody from the outside or from any other part in the institution to get the SHU besides from the outer door. MR. a : Okay. So could have - could have anyone from 10 South accessed the SHU without you or Noel being -? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a : No? And can you just show who was in 10 South when you were there? Can you show me on the Daily Assignment Roster? So who would have been in 10 South when you guys were there? MR. THOMAS: [. Of. Eg. MR. ae : And do you remember if. | | visited the SHU at any time? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. MR. ae : Would have they been the closest unit to you though? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. QJ: Okay. But you don't recall if -? MR. THOMAS: I don't recall (Indiscernible *03:26:38) MR. a : Okay. And for feeding or any counts or anything like that, did you guys EFTA00113873

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 w ~] wo 10 11 - would you typically interact? MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well if they just for the count to help them count. MR. QJ: | Okay.) Would that - would he personally -? What time would he be on too? Same shift as you? Until 8:00 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Same shift. MR. a : Would he possibly be the person that showed up at 5:30 a.m. in the SHU? MR. THOMAS: No because he was on for the morning watch. If he was on there from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. MR. a : Alright. But you don't MR. THOMAS: Somebody coming in at 5:30? MR. Ee : -- who showed up at 5:30 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't recall anybody coming in at 5:30. MR. QJ: Okay. So 4:00 a.m. was Lieutenant Po but you don't remember anybody at 5:30 a.m.? MR. THOMAS: No, I don't remember anybody EFTA00113874

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 -. You were there and there’s no way that anyone could have accessed the SHU aside from - MR. THOMAS: Yeah, nobody -. MR. a : -- Noel or you allowing them to get in? MR. THOMAS: To allow them to get in. Yeah. MR. a : Okay. And you said Epstein’s cell was locked when you -- MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : -- went there? And when you did find him and rip the thing off, did you notice that his body was either cold or warm? MR. THOMAS: I didn’t notice. MR. Ee : You didn’t notice that? MR. a : Is there anything that I’m missing? Anything you want to add to this? MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't. I guess I’m not well-versed in -. No. MR. ae : Please, well-versed in what? MR. THOMAS: Well-versed in the policy or anything, but no, I have nothing to add. EFTA00113875

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. a. would you like to -? MR. a: I just have a few follow-up questions. MR. THOMAS: Sure. MR. a: When we showed you that email from fe a. You said that you’ve seen that before. Right? MR. THOMAS: I said I’ve seen that before? MR. a: Is that - not that email specifically. But you’ve seen that type of email sent out from psych before. MR. THOMAS: I said I’ve seen that type of email that you know I thought -. I didn’t read the top of the email because some of them just say MYM all staff. Because they say all staff and it’s sent out to everybody. MR. a: Is it normally sent out to everyone? MR. THOMAS: No. Sometimes it is. Sometimes with that specific probably was just sent out to the SHU and staff. Because my name wasn’t on it. And I’m not custody, so it was probably just sent out to custody. MR. a: If it was an important EFTA00113876

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 301 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 decision, it’s something that needed immediate attention, would they have sent out - MR. THOMAS: Above my paygrade. MR. a : No would they have normally sent it out to all staff? MR. THOMAS: No. It doesn’t have to. MR. a : Okay. Now Agent | just asked you a question about could anyone have come in and out of 9 South. Out of the SHU. MR. a : 10 South. MR. a: Out of 10 South, but out of the SHU. If you were sleeping -- MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. QJ: -- is it possible someone could have came on to the - into the SHU and left without you knowing if you were sleeping? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a: Because you would have to let them in? MR. THOMAS: I would have to let them in. MR. a: Is there any other way they could have got in without you letting them in? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. a: Could someone else have a key that they could have used? EFTA00113877

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: It would have to 2 control. Keys are in - the only other 3 in control. 4 MR. a : So the only other ke 5 the control? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. a: Okay. So the count 8 We spoke about the count sheets and th 9 signature was Noel’s. Right? 10 MR. THOMAS: My - yeah. 11 MR. QJ: 9he initials -- 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. a: -- were Noel’s? 14 MR. ae : Not the counts. 15 the on the rounds. 16 MR. a: I’m mean, sorry, the 17 sheets. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. a: Noel took - initials 20 it 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. a: Do you recall when N 23 signed those sheets? 24 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't. 25 MR. a: If you guys - if the 302 come from keys are y is in sheets. e That was round were on oel video -. EFTA00113878

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 303 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Let’s just say you guys were both asleep at one point. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a: For a couple of hours. Would she have filled it up - signed those sheets before or after? Because she would not have committed those - she wouldn’t have done those rounds. Did you ever see her pull those round sheets out and initial them? MR. THOMAS: No. I really wasn’t paying attention to what she was doing. I really don't remember. MR. a : Have you ever worked in the SHU with Noel before? MR. THOMAS: It’s possible. I don't know - I don't really remember. Maybe I have. I don't really remember. It’s possible, but like I said, I don't know. MR. a: Okay. The reason I ask is that if you’ve never worked with Noel before, and you said that most of the times you do the rounds and the counts. MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a: Would it have been kind of awkward that both of you guys sat down, didn’t EFTA00113879

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 discuss the fact you’re not going to do the counts, didn’t discuss the fact you’re not going to do the rounds, and just sat down, slept, and - you know, went on the computer. But no one spoke about the facts but someone - between both of you guys, you initialed the round - the count slips and also the round sheets? MR. THOMAS: Speaking of, I don't believe that we had any conversations. I don't really remember any conversations that we had or anything like that. There are some things that are just not spoken about. It could have been - like I said, I was exhausted. Hey, listen, I did whatever-whatever. And she did whatever- whatever. And that was it. MR. a : Does it mean -? MR. THOMAS: There wasn’t no -. MR. a: If you worked with her in the past, does that mean you guys did the same thing in the past? MR. THOMAS: No. MR. QJ: And just knew that -? MR. THOMAS: No, it doesn’t mean that. Absolutely not. EFTA00113880

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 305 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: How come either of you didn’t nudge each other to say, let’s go? MR. THOMAS: I can’t say what happened. What was going on with her. I knew what was going on with me. I was just, as you could see by my um, roster. And that’s not my work roster. That’s just my overtime roster that you all pulled up and brought to me. It’s every day. Every day. And I was just ina -. Had things that I had going on at the time. MR. a : I think the point being there, and again because you’re under oath, we just want to make sure -- MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- that we’re clear here. Is the fact that -- MR. THOMAS: It wasn’t a discussion though. MR. Ee : -- it was like an unspoken thing that you guys did. But it seemed to be so natural that you didn’t conduct any rounds or any counts. So it just seems odd that that wouldn’t have happened like that in the past. If there was no discussions that were had. EFTA00113881

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I - if I did work with her, I don't remember if I did or not. I mean it’s quite possible. I don't remember everybody that I work with in the SHU. So um, but it wasn’t something that we just spoke about. MR. a : Isn’t it kind of awkward that the one night that both of you guys decided that the rounds are not going to be done, the counts are not going to be done, that this incident happens? MR. THOMAS: It is. MR. a : Is it possible that -- MR. THOMAS: But it’s never happened before so of course it’s an awkward thing. MR. a: Is it possible that you guys haven’t done any of the rounds or counts on shifts before? MR. THOMAS: No, that’s not possible. I wouldn’t put that all - to label one night for every night that happens in the SHU. Absolutely not. I wouldn’t label that. MR. a : He admitted already that he didn’t conduct all of the counts and rounds he’s documented, but he thinks he’s done the EFTA00113882

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 307 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 majority of them. Is that correct? MR. THOMAS: I said I’m not perfect. MR. QJ: Right. MR. THOMAS: And I’ve done my rounds. I’ve done all my rounds all the time but that I’m not a perfect person. I may have slipped up here or there sometime, but I have done my rounds. Just one particular night I was -. MR. a : But not -. I think what you said before you didn’t -. You’re not perfect. You haven’t done all of your rounds but that mostly. MR. THOMAS: I would say that on schedule that I do my rounds 90% - 95.9% of the time. And sometimes I don't do the half an hour, I do it at the hour. MR. ee: Well what about -? MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean? But it’s still the rounds getting conducted. MR. a : And what about for the counts? And now we’re talking specifically for the SHU. MR. THOMAS: We’re talking about specifically for the SHU, I usually get every count done - every count done. EFTA00113883

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 308 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. So and again, if we go back to actually the video and check to see if you’re doing the counts, is that - again, and I’m only saying this because I was to just remind you you’re under oath. MR. THOMAS: I understand. MR. es : And this is where that we can bring this back up to like -. MR. THOMAS: I totally understand. If you go back to the video, you will see that you’1l catch me doing my rounds or you’ll catch me doing my counts. Like I said, then that’s when I said whereas I’m not perfect. Like I said 95. Maybe one oh hold up you know he didn’t do this one. An hour went by but he did it at an hour and one minute. So then technically, by the paperwork that I didn’t do it every half an hour. Correct? If I do it over every hour, technically by the paperwork I didn’t do a half an hour round I did an hour round. MR. a : But you would have to still certify that you did it every half hour. MR. THOMAS: No, you don't have to certify that you did every half hour. I don't believe that it has to be. If you write on that paper EFTA00113884

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that I did it every hour, it’s just when a round was conducted. When I conducted the round. MR. a : So in order for the rounds to be completed, you don't have to actually sign it every 30 minutes? MR. THOMAS: It could be -. I’m not saying that it has to. It’s supposed to be done every 30 minutes. But if I didn’t do it every 30 minutes, and I did one an hour, that’s when I wrote that time on there. MR. a : Alright. So you wouldn’t then go back and fill in that 30 minutes? MR. THOMAS: No I wouldn’t go back and fill it in. MR. a : Like see how they have like - so you would leave one blank of it wasn’t conducted? MR. THOMAS: No, you wouldn’t leave one blank. Because somebody would tell you to fill it in. If I did it -. MR. a : That’s what I’m saying. MR. THOMAS: If it was from 12:30 to 1:00 and I did the round once, so I just put 12:30 to 1:00. Like you’1ll see some round sheets it EFTA00113885

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 says from 12:00 to -. I didn’t do it at -. But between 12:30 but I put 12:45. The round is still conducted. MR. a : So what are you saying? So like if it was -. MR. THOMAS: It probably wasn’t done ina half an hour block. MR. QJ: | So you put. MR. THOMAS: It probably wasn’t just done in a half an hour block but it was still conducted. MR. a : Right. So a round was conducted. But if it was covering two - if it was conducting an hour block, how would you fill in the two? Would they be identical? MR. THOMAS: As you can - no. Because as you can see right here, it’s not a specific time. Because this just says as long as it’s between this time. So if it was - I did it at 12:10, I started here at 12:10. And then I did the round here. It lapped over to 12:40 because I got to talking to an inmate or like that. It’s still - the round is still conducted. Then right here, then I did - you know what I’m saying. I go at 12:52 and I did EFTA00113886

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 311 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it at - I did a fast round. I did it from 12:52 to 12:59. The round is still conducted. But even though the last though, you’re caught up in the -. I understand because it’s in black and white. It’s not just done just like that. It can be done at any given time as long as the round is conducted. It doesn’t have to be -. By policy it’s supposed to be in the 30- minute block. That’s when you’re talking policy. But -. MR. a : Would 30 to 40 yeah. MR. THOMAS: 30 to 40 minute block but like I say, if I did it at 12:10 and did it at 12:40 and then right here I wanted to just - because I wanted to get a round done, I conduct it at 12:52 to 12:59, it’s still within that block. It’s still conducted. MR. a : Well that’s conducting a around. Correct. But what I thought you said it was like you might not do it for a whole hour. MR. THOMAS: But that - but I’m -. Excuse me, I apologize. That’s a 12:10 to 12:40 to 12:42, I’m saying that’s an hour. Because that’s pretty much - we’ve got 20 minutes - 10 EFTA00113887

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 minutes before and 10 minutes after. Then you have the hour. But that’s the whole hour. So if I did it for 12:00 to 1:00, then I did from 1:00 to 2:00. It’s still conducted. It’s just not conducted in your 30-minute span as you say. I didn’t do the in between but it’s still conducted. You see what I’m saying? MR. QR: 9X0. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a : Because you’re talking about one to two, that’s a whole hour. And we’re not talking about within 30 minutes. MR. THOMAS: But within the 30 minutes, that’s not doing it every 30 minutes like how it’s supposed to be done. But then if I did it 12:00 to 1:00, it’s still conducted, but it’s not conducted the correct way. A round is still conducted, but it’s not conducted the correct way. No? MR. a : No. Because -. MR. THOMAS: Do you understand? MR. a : No I understand what you’re saying. MR. a : Because if you’re saying you’re doing one round within an hour and you EFTA00113888

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have to document it one round every 30 minutes, so you can only then fill out one of these blocks. Which one are you going to fill out? Or are you going to do the e same thing in an identical place - 12:09, 12:09? MR. THOMAS: Yeah, you just -. MR. es : But at 12:30 will there be identical blocks that you’re - identical times that you’re -. MR. THOMAS: Well that’s up to the person. MR. a : But what you’re saying is that if you did it at 12:25 and ended at 12:35, that covered those 30 minutes. MR. THOMAS: No, you still put that in the one block. MR. a : You’re saying the start time and end time -. MR. THOMAS: No, you still put that in the one block. You’re being - if I did it from 12:25 and at 12:30, I would still put that in that one block. And then this next one, whatever the time is, like I said 12:41. And then 12:00 to 12:42 because remember, this is just a tier. This is not the whole round. This is just a tier. So what you’re saying is EFTA00113889

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 this whole -. See this is 12 - 1 to 1210. This is just the one tier - G tier. MR. a : Yep. MR. THOMAS: So then you’ve got 1211 to 1210. Remember, this is just one tier. MR. a : Sure. Each one of these is a different tier. MR. THOMAS: Each one is just the tier. So it’s MR. a : Yeah. MR. THOMAS: -- it’s taking a minute a tier. MR. THOMAS: So that’s one tier. Then you’ve got another one. 12:05 to 12 (Indiscernible *03:38:09). That’s just one tier. Not the - I’m doing 12:45 so then the whole thing. MR. Ee : Yeah-yeah. MR. THOMAS: So now you have to get so from 12:05 to 12:20-something is when that whole round was done in a 20-minute span. Do you got me or are you totally lost? MR. a: I understand what you’ re saying. You did it within the hour. EFTA00113890

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. THOMAS: That -. MR. RODRIGUEZ: Right? And you mark -. But here’s the thing. You’re signing off or initialing according to the fact that you’ve done the count within that time period. Is that right or wrong? MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. She initialed that she did it between 12:09 and 1210. MR. a: No-no. Let’s forget about it. Just talk about you. MR. THOMAS: Okay. MR. a: When you do your rounds. MR. THOMAS: When I do - well I haven’t done a round in over two or something years. do my rounds 12:00 to 12:10. I mean 12:00 to 12:30. In that block. If I did it the incorrect way, I did it from 12 - it’s still - I got it in between that time. But I still wrote it 12:00 to 12:30. So 12:00 to 1:00. MR. a: Okay. I can’t -. MR. a : I don't even understand what your question is. MR. a: No-no-no. I’11 come back to this another part. When do you think these initials were put on? 315 I EFTA00113891

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 316 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know when she wrote on the paper. I don’t know when she did it. MR. a: When did these round sheets get submitted? MR. THOMAS: At the end of the day. MR. a: End of the day. MR. THOMAS: End of the whole workday not the end of every work period - every eight hours. MR. a: You wouldn’t happen to know if she went back and signed these after -- MR. THOMAS: I wouldn’t know. MR. a : -- the incident happened? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know. MR. a: Initial log. MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I lost track of Noel. MR. a : It sounds like it may -. It looks like if this is you’re saying that she did these rounds at 6:10, 6:11, um. What time is -? MR. THOMAS: They’re not in order. MR. a : What time does breakfast get there? MR. THOMAS: Breakfast is no standard EFTA00113892

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 317 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time. Especially not on the weekends. You’re talking about on a Saturday. MR. a : The last one she wrote was 6:13. So you assume that she did it right before you know you discovered Epstein. MR. THOMAS: Could have been. MR. es : That would be the assumption. MR. THOMAS: That would be the assumption by the binder. I can’t remember what time the food cart came up. MR. a : But you didn’t witness her actually signing -- MR. THOMAS: No, I don't when she put her signature on that. MR. Ee : You don't remember like talking? Like hey, I’m going to grab the food cart. You take care of the round sheets? MR. THOMAS: No. Hm-mm. MR. a : No? Alright. Just so that that whole thing that we just talked about isn’t convoluted. What we talked about before was that you’ve done the majority of the counts and rounds but not all of them. MR. THOMAS: I usually just plan on doing EFTA00113893

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 my rounds. Yes. 2 MR. QJ: what’s that? 3 MR. THOMAS: I’m usually spot on with 4 doing my rounds. 5 MR. a : Well when we talked about 6 it before, you said you weren’t always. 7 MR. THOMAS: I’m not. 8 MR. a : You didn’t conduct all 9 rounds. 10 MR. THOMAS: I’m not perfect. I’m not 11 perfect. Maybe I missed a round or so that’s 2 what I said. 3 MR. QJ: Right. 4 MR. THOMAS: I’m not perfect. 15 MR. a : So we’re not pointing to 16 specific ones, but -- 7 MR. THOMAS: I can tell you -- 8 MR. a : -- were the rounds -- 9 MR. THOMAS: -- that I wasn’t perfect. 20 MR. QJ: «Right. The rounds and 21 counts that you’ve conducted, you believe that 22 you’ve conducted the majority of them -. 23 MR. THOMAS: I’ve done the - all my 24 rounds. Yes. 25 MR. QJ: «tf you have falsified EFTA00113894

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 some but not a lot. When I say falsified, you wrote in that you conducted them, but they weren’t actually conducted. MR. THOMAS: No. That’s not what I’m saying. I wrote that - I wrote that I wrote in my rounds. MR. a : For the count slips though. We’re saying -. MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I think -- MR. a : That wasn’t the first -. MR. THOMAS: -- you’re talking about the counts? This is the rounds or the counts slips. MR. QM: We’ re taking the (Indiscernible *03:41:16)) MR. THOMAS: I said I’m not -. I said that I’m not perfect. MR. QJ: Right. MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. I don't want to sit up here that I’m 100% perfect. What I’m saying is that I did my - I’m usually spot on with doing my rounds and doing what I’m supposed to do as far as the course of my job. MR. a: Okay. So you’re saying EFTA00113895

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 320 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that these - any time you’re worked in the SHU, and you marked off - people have marked off that you did them every 30 minutes. MR. THOMAS: I don't know what people marked off. I only know what I do. When I usually I get my stuff done. MR. es : So when you're in the SHU on all those overtime shifts that we just showed you, you’re doing rounds every 30 minutes? MR. THOMAS: I can’t say that I don't rounds every 30 minutes. MR. a : That’s the question. MR. THOMAS: Okay. I can’t say that I did rounds every 30 minutes. No, I can’t say that I did rounds every 30 minutes. MR. ee: So some of -. You’re doing them most of the time, but some of them are marked off when they weren’t actually conducted? MR. THOMAS: Maybe. Maybe. MR. a : Okay. And same thing with the count slips. You’ve done most of the count slips -. MR. THOMAS: No. I usually get my counts EFTA00113896

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 done. Usually I get my counts done. MR. a : But not all of them. So if we go back and we find sometimes you didn’t do it -. MR. THOMAS: You can go back -. MR. a : We’re probably going to find - if we’re reviewing video -. MR. THOMAS: Of 14 years, you may have me one time where I didn’t get one done. MR. a : But even if we’re just talking about like August and July. If we go back and review those, we’re going to find at least a few that weren’t conducted and that were written in. Is that correct? MR. THOMAS: I actually don't know. I honestly don't know. MR. ae : Because I thought we already covered this and you already said -. MR. THOMAS: We did already cover that. But I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. MR. a : I thought in my understanding from eh conversation was that yep, there’s count slips that I’ve created in the past. Most of them I’ve conducted, some of EFTA00113897

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 322 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 them aren’t going - you know. some of them, yes I just signed them and put in the count number. But I - you know, especially between the hours of 12:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. MR. THOMAS: That’s all my overtime right there is the 12:00 a.m. to -. MR. a : Right. That’s what I’m saying. MR. THOMAS: Except for one day watch. MR. a : Because there’s that. So like not every 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. count was conducted during a shift. MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. QJ: | Most of them but not all of them. MR. THOMAS: I don’t - I want to say - I want to say all but I honestly don't know. I want to say all. I want to say all. But then I’m not trying to get caught up in a lie and say, oh no, this one time that I didn’t do it. MR. a : No-no-no. I’m just trying to reconcile -- MR. THOMAS: That’s what I’m saying. MR. a : -- what we talked about like two hours ago. EFTA00113898

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 323 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. THOMAS: Exactly. MR. a : Because two hours ago - MR. THOMAS: I said I wasn’t perfect. And so maybe I didn’t get one done or not. I don't know. Like I said, I’m not perfect. I didn’t get maybe I didn’t get one of those, but I don't know. That’s exactly what I said two hours ago. MR. a : You know, my understanding was that you -. Okay. So you’re saying you believe actually your count slips are -. MR. THOMAS: I believe my count slips are good. I believe they are good. MR. a : Okay. So when we go back and review the video, we’re going to see that you were actually doing them? MR. THOMAS: You’re going to see that I get my counts done. Yes. MR. a : And same thing for your rounds? MR. THOMAS: You should see me get most of my rounds done. MR. a : Alright. Because now that you’re saying this, we have to go back and EFTA00113899

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 324 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 review these things. MR. THOMAS: I/’11 tell you that I’m saying that I should have gotten most of my rounds and if I didn’t get them all done. I’m not trying to lie and say I didn’t. MR. MITCHELL: Can we - can I -? Can we go outside for a second? MR. QJ: Absolutely we can take time out. It is currently 2:13 p.m. This is Senior Special Agent (Indiscernible *03:43:57) and we are taking a quick break. [Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and went back on the record.] Alright, the recorder is back on. It is currently 2:18 p.m. on June 17, 2021. Again everyone is present aside from - I don't not believe the other attorney is on the phone right now. And Mr. Thomas, I remind you again this is voluntary and you are under oath. Is there anything that you would like to add with regard to the rounds and the counts that you have conducted and certified in the past prior to August 10, 2019? MR. THOMAS: That I have not completed all my rounds. That’s it. MR. a : What about your counts EFTA00113900

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and the count slips? MR. THOMAS: I have not completed all my counts. MR. a : Alright. So in the past prior to August 10, 2019, there are times that you were in the SHU that you didn’t conduct all of your counts, but you did certify that they were conducted? Is that correct? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Alright. And same thing for the rounds. Are there times that you certified on the round sheets that they were conducted but they were - or you or the person that you were working with certified that they were conducted when they in fact were not conducted? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : And I know you were saying like before like estimates. But like how often would that happen? MR. THOMAS: I really couldn’t tell you. MR. a : Was it a regular occurrence? MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. MR. a: No? But it did happen in EFTA00113901

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the past? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : But you’re not sure how often? MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. a : Okay. a. would you like to follow-up with additional questioning on that? MR. a: During those times when you didn’t commit - conduct the rounds or the counts. Was it only with Toel Nova? I mean Tova Noel? MR. THOMAS: I don't remember if I worked if I worked with her before or not. MR. a: Okay. Which other COs were you working with when this incidents happened? MR. THOMAS: I’ve been there for 14 years. I can’t remember exactly who. I really don't know who I worked with at that time. MR. QJ: 9 So this has a span over 14 years? MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know. I don't know when this happened or not. MR. a: Okay. That’s all. MR. a: Okay. Anything else you EFTA00113902

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LIMITED ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE Ww iS) ~ want to add on that? MR. THOMAS: No. Not at all. MR. a : Any further clarifications? MR. THOMAS: No thank you. MR. a : Okay. It’s fairly - again you can and you may. MR. THOMAS: It’s no problem. I’m okay. MR. a : Is there anything you want to add to this specific instance? MR. THOMAS: No, I do not. MR. a : Is there certain belief that you have of why Jeffrey Epstein got into w the place that he was? Is there a reason why you think that that occurred? MR. THOMAS: I can’t speak for any of that MR. a : No? Okay. And are you sure we want to conclude this? MR. BJ: 9 Yes. MR. ae : So we don’t have to anything later in the date - anything revis you can think of? MR. a : Nothing yet. MR. a : You’re the case agent. EFTA00113903

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 328 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 So I want to make sure. MR. a: That’s it. Nothing. Because we covered pretty much everything. MR. THOMAS: No problem. I’m here whenever you all need me again. MR. a : Alright. Let me just do a quick review and make sure that we’re good. And hopefully this can be it. Alright. Are you confident with all of your answers again knowing that you’re under oath? There’s nothing that you want to clarify before we end this. This would be the time to do that. Any kind of additional -. MR. THOMAS: No, sir. MR. a : No? No additional information? MR. THOMAS: Nope. MR. a : No questions that we’re missing that we should ask? MR. THOMAS: Nope. MR. a : No. Um, alright. This is Senior Special Agent | a. It is currently 2:21 p.m. on June 17, 2021. And I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00113904

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 Oo w ot oO oo CERTIFICATE oO or General in the matter of: Interview of MICHAEL THOMAS EFTA00113905