10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00113316

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ies) OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL co co EFTA00113317

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. Ee : The recorder is on. My 2 name is fF and I am a senior the U.S. Department of Ww n ve] o is] pb wu bh wu Q oO 5 ct = rt a 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New w ss O RR "y b oO a oh Fh bh b Q oO and these are my 8 MR. QJ: 411 right. And this interview with Federal Bureau of wo i=) nN ive) 4 MR. ae : a. is being conducted 5 as part of an official U.S. Department of 16 Justice, Office of t 7 investigation. 8 2021, and the time is 9 This interview is being conducted at the 20 Metropolitan Correctional or the MCC, 21 located in New York, New York. Also present is 23 interview will be recorded by me, SSA Dennis 24 a . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell your last EFTA00113318

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LIMITED w wo 19 20 No Ww OFFICIAL USE 4 name? To start, again, I am DO ial Ag oO ecial Agent ese are my y credentials. MR. i: Thank you, sir. MR. a : And can your name for the record, and your position title? Thank you, sir. stigation into ein, and the tances, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our Will to a voluntary with the DOJ/ MR. QE: EFTA00113319

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Thank you, sir. This is a form that we give to our voluntary - or to our employees who are requested to provide information on a voluntary basis. It says, United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if do not choose to answer our questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there’s a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have EFTA00113320

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 w ~] been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” So, you can take a look, if you’d like, at this form. And if you agree with it and understand it, you can sign where it says employee signature, and then print your name where it says employee’s name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) if you’d like. MR. i: Okay. Okay. You said sign my name right here? MR. a : Yeah. Where it says employee signature. And then, you can just print your name underneath, where it says -. Okay. MR. i: My full name? MR. GJ: 9 Yes. MR. ae : Yes, please. Thank you, sir. Okay. And I am signing where it says signature of Office of the Inspector General Special Agent, and I am printing my name below. Again, this is | tti‘séSC‘*d The date is 8/5/21, and the time is -- MR : 2:38. MR iz MR. QR: «38. 2: o-- 2 -- EFTA00113321

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 ioe) 6 MR. a : Did you understand t io you under oath. Mr. a. could a i) gw ial 15 during this inte t o Bs K A 17 MR. ae : Thank you, sir. Please oo wo I address 23 24 MR. a : Thank you, sir. And 25 that’s in Newark EFTA00113322

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LIMITED 1 Oo w oO oo 95 OFFICIAL your 2. fu ct D MR. a : And what is your current MR. ia: Malcom X Shabazz. Newark, New duate MR. ee: And when did you high Thank you, sir. And what do prior to working for the B MR. a: I used to for private EFTA00113323

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE io i) 1 corrections, Corrections Corporation of 2 America. Ww id tam fw Q KR o wu ct Now, do No, sir. 6 MR. a : And how long have you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? wi aw 8 MR. a: February will be 20 years. oO a Okay. Great. Do you i=) remember your entry on duty date? 11 MR. a: February 10th of 2002. MR. a : Thank you, sir. And do you graduated from BOP N Fs WwW ke 18) Cc HK o aQ wu hb be = a i) 3 4 training, around, like, the - even the year? 5 MR. aa: I can't. I don’t remember. t oO a Would it have been right It was a little later. 9 MR. Ee : But you’ve attended it? co Fs) = 12) correctional 22 officer training down at FLETC? 23 MR a: Yes. 24 MR. a : Okay. Great. And what current position with the BOP? iS t it) ke 12) c K EFTA00113324

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 ies) w ~] oo wo i=) ive) w MR. a: I'm a senior officer MR. a : And what does that position entail? MR. aa: It just means that, you know, I’ve worked every post, and I’ve been on -. Worked about every post, and I'ma little bit more trained than the people that’s now getting the custody side of the house? MR. a : Okay. Great. What is your grade level? MR. a: My grade level is eight, step ten. MR. ae : Great. Thank you. And are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? MR. BR: Yes. MR. QM: Ss Was he housed within the McC in July and August of 2019? MR. a: I believe so, but I'm not too sure. Because Epstein wasn’t a big deal to me. MR. a : Okay. And what do you mean by that? EFTA00113325

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Meaning that, he’s just - he was somebody that was being processed through the federal government for committing a crime. MR. a : Okay. What about after the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news attention and everything that had been placed upon it, did you think it became a little bit bigger of a deal then? MR. i: I guess it was a big deal of how, you know, the job was treating them. You know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide watch. MR. a : Okay. And you’re saying that based upon the fact that he killed himself? MR. a: Yes. MR. Ee : Okay. And we can get into that more later. What was your position at the MCC in July and August of 2019? MR. a: If I remember correctly, I was internal number two. MR. a : Okay. I'm sorry. Were you a senior officer specialist -- EFTA00113326

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. QM: yes. MR. a : -- as well? Perfect. And they’ re the same duties and responsibilities that you just described? Basically, like, a very knowledgeable correctional officer? MR. a: Yes. Yes. About that. Yeah. MR. a : Okay. Did you have any interactions or involvement with Epstein during his stay at MCC? MR. ER: No. MR. a : No. Did you even communicate with him at all? MR. FR: No. MR. ae : Did you see him at all? MR. i: I seen him once. I think he was down on suicide watch. One time. MR. ae : Okay. And were you working at suicide watch? MR. a: No. I think I was activities, maybe. So, I had to go through, sign the logbook, maybe. I don’t -. I can't remember what post, or what post I was on, or maybe I was internal. You know, and, you know, we have a shortage of staff. So, I wear many different titles during the day. EFTA00113327

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) 3 | Rr Ww MR. a: So, I can't really tell you how I saw him that particular day, but I know I did MR. a : Okay. So, when he was on suicide watch, you remember, you know, you have acted as the activi lieutenant, though, in MR. a : Okay. Great. od C4 a ty c ct ct a wu rt Q fu ket ' QO w S ct remember MR. a : Sure. Do you happen to remember if you worked at the MCC on August 93th and 10th of 2019? The day leading up to and the day he was - the day of - finding him in his MR. aa: Yeah. I believe so. The day of? I was certainly here. The day before? I can't remember. MR. ae : Okay. Great. Do you know what you were doing that day? And I have a duty agent - I have a -- MR. QB: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- I'm going to give you EFTA00113328

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 the daily -- 2 MR. a: I was -. 3 MR. a : -- receipt, and I’1l try 4 to -. Here you go, and here is the daily 5 assignment roster for both Friday, August 9th, 6 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2019. I have 7 taken the liberty of just highlighting your 8 name next -- wo a oO ~ wu kK 10 MR. a : -- position title. 11 MR. a: Control one. And internal WwW id ip is) 13] 5 Ae) c Q G n rr wo ct a ke 12) co 4 were control number one, and then, August -. 15 MR. a: No, now, which one is the day 16 of? 7 MR. ae : And so, we got the day 8 leading up to it will be the 9th. 9 MR. aa: Okay. 20 MR. QJ: nd that’s where it 21 that you were -- 22 MR. a: Control one. Yes 23 MR. a : -- you were control one. 24 Okay. And that says that you were control one 25 from 4:00 p.m. until midnight? EFTA00113329

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. QM: yes. 2 MR. a : Okay. Great. 3 the following day, it says Saturday, 4 10th, 2019. You were internal number w overtime, from midnight through 8:00 6 MR. QR: yes. ~] And then, August two, on a.m.? MR. a : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in case 9 we ask you about anything -- 10 MR. QR: 9 Okay. 11 MR. a : -- with regard to, you 12 know, either you or other people that were 13 working on that, on that day. So, as - let’s 14 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 15 state that you were control number one. What 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? 17 MR. Ha: Okay. For control number one? 18 MR. a : Control number one. 19 Correct. 20 MR. QJ: The duties entail -. 21 MR. a : And specifically, we’re 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to 23 midnight shift. 24 MR. a: Okay. 4:00 p.m. to midnight 25 shift. Duties entail of just, you know, being EFTA00113330

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 w ~] the eyes and the ears for the lieutenant. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a: We reviewed the camera, and we watched the cameras a little bit. We popped doors. We answered phones. If anybody is calling, asking about their loved ones that are incarcerated here. MR. a : So, you’re in the control center, correct? MR. QM: yes. MR. a : Are you one of two officers in the control center? MR. : Yes. MR. ae : All right. So, what is the difference between what the control number one officer does, and the control number two officer does? MR. a: Okay. Control number one officer. Control number one officer actually, you know, popped the doors, do all the paperwork. MR. ae : Okay. So, when you say paperwork, like, if they’re counts, you fill out the paperwork? MR. a: Not the counts. That’s the CNA EFTA00113331

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 officer, or the internal unit two officer. The control officer, the control officers handles ies) the door, the popping of the doors, listening 4 to the radios. w a Answer it. Okay. And 6 so, and who actually is supposed to take care 7 of the counts, then, during that time? 8 MR. a: The counts are CNA. Or 9 now/internal two. does CNA 10 MR. a : Okay. And wha 11 stand for? 2 MR. a: CNA is - what is that - Counts. 3 Oh, it’s been a long time since I had to, like, 4 pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is 5 — 16 MR. Ee : Is that somebody that’s listed on this sheet? Lee) 5 i | internal number two. oO a3 Oh, so, CNA is internal 20 number two? EFTA00113332

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 actually would be the person that’s supposed to be doing the counts? mR. QE: ves. MR. a : All right. And what about for, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, for internal number two, from midnight through 8:00 a.m. What were your duties and responsibilities? MR. i: Yes. That was me, internal number two. My duties was to generate the count. Generate the PPE1. Make any moves, if any inmates move from one unit to the next unit. Answer the phones. MR. ae : So, when you say inmates move from one unit to the next unit, do you mean, like, keying them into different -- MR. Ha: Yes. Keying them into -- MR. a : -- so, keying them out of one, and keying -- MR. MM: 9 -- key them out of a -- MR. a : -- into the other. MR. Ha: -- out of a housing unit, and moving them to the next. MR. a : Okay. So, not the actual physical movement -- EFTA00113333

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 io 2 MR. a : -- you’re talking about Ww 0) be o is] ct a] ie) 5 Pp Qa wu bh bh 4 MR. a: Electronical. Okay. In the w 3) 4 Fs) K i) ty] 8 MR. a : Perfect. So -. And also, my duties are to oO a i=) actually go upstairs and do the count. To help 11 out internal with the count. MR. a : Okay. So, not only are you taking the count and filling out the nN ive) 4 paperwork, but you’re actually physically going somewhere? f Co 5 “ oO ty 7 MR. ae : And where are you going Les] rt 0 wo a3 I have to go - at that time - I 20 had to count Nine North, and unit two. 22 know Nine South. What is Nine North? 23 MR. a: Nine North is a housing unit. 24 MR. a : Okay. So, just a normal, 25 regular general pop housing -- EFTA00113334

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 20 MR. a : -- housing unit? So, that’s what you were doing in that specific date? i] that w internal number two goes and counts Nine North? lways the MR. a: Yeah. That’s how they have internal number two set up for their post. MR. a : So, alwa very -- counting the -- every shift? Basically, we help out If you was working as the internal officer, and you needed my help to, you know, because you know that I'm MR. a : Okay MR. aa: You would say, hey, i. I need you to count nine and two, or just say, I sed to help you. © count both sides of 11. fa] oO o ion is) c rt MR. a : So, you’re basically the EFTA00113335

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 2 MR. QJ: -- control number - 1 mean, is it control number one, that we’re ies) 4 talking about? Control number two. 6 MR. a : Control number one i wi aw its] o foe) OD K 0) fu om og | | and then, control i=) Control number one -- - mR. J: -- is the as not leave control. 4 MR. ae : Control number one i] WwW Fs) ' | 0 c oO a K oO n 7 MR. ae : Okay. Control number two 8 actually is the one that -. Okay. So, the 9 person who is control number -. Control number 20 20 All right. you 23 wouldn’t have left then on Friday, August 9th. 24 You would have been in there the whole time? EFTA00113336

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : During your shift. MR. a : And then, you’re saying that on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, when you were internal number two, that’s when you woul have left your shift, and helped with the counts? MR. QE: Yes. MR. QM: okay. But internal number two, you were actually taking s their wu the counts and writing in the documentation? MR. a: I'm taking count, and also, I'm going upstairs to actually physically do the count. MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: In two houses. MR. ae : All right. But as control number one, the day before, you weren’ actually supposed to be involved with the counts? MR. a: No. The only thing I do is i) t there. Once you complete the count and you tell me, and we have a good verbal, I announce it on the radio, I log it in the logbook, and then, you say, clear count. I announce it on d t rr EFTA00113337

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 23 the radio. Write it in the logbook. Clear count. MR. a : Okay. And on these dates - and I'm sorry to pop back and forth - but on Friday, August 9th, 2019, when you were control c number one, who would you be primarily be working with? MR. a: At that time, shortage of staff, you could have any -. MR. a : I mean, on this specific MR. a: You have a different partner almost every day. On this ecific dé working with a. if he was in - PY - if he was internal number two. would be working together? y, I'd be ith | that day. I think it was a. and then, he went home, because | goes home at 10:00. Because I was working with a. and then he went home. MR. a : When did he go home? EFTA00113338

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 MR. a: I think he went home at 10:00. 2 MR. QM: at 10:00? WwW a Hed 5 ion eal ' I 4 MR. QJ: So then -. 5 MR. aa: -- probably was in there by 6 myself for a few, but I can't remember. I can't remember. a lot of Les] Fs) oO ct a fu rt =] fw oe oO n 9 sense. We’re going to go over the actual 10 counts because you actually took the count at 11 10:00 p.m. 2 MR. QR: Okay 3 MR. a : So, that makes sense. 4 So, was he supposed to go home, or he had to go c w Za Oo 3 oO i} c oO aw K o n He’s supposed to go home. 7 MR. ae : Okay. So, at the 10:00 8 p-m. count, then, as control number one, you 9 actually take it -? 20 MR. MM: yeah. Like, when you're in 21 there by yourself, and there’s a shortage of 22 staff, you got to play both roles. 23 MR. QM: Okay. At 10:00 p.m., 24 though, was there supposed to be two people in 25 there? EFTA00113339

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. MR. a : So, that’s what I mean. So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the count happens after the person - control number two - leaves. Right? MR. Ha: Yes. So, control number two is supposed to print up everything, and since he’s off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork that he generated, and do the count for him. MR. a : Okay. So, control number one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. count. Correct? MR. QM: 9 Control number one is not responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if you are in there by yourself, now that’s your second job. MR. a : Okay. So, who is responsible for it, then? MR. Ha: Whoever is supposed to he posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It’s two different. Like, see here, we have a lot of job titles that kind of, like, they took from us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever EFTA00113340

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 time control goes in. At this t was on eights, when he was on ei shift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 to 12:00, and 8:00. When CNA comes in for eve evening watch is 4:00 to 12:00. When evening watch comes in, con in, control two comes in. Now, know, had a big idea and said, h to, you know, we need to stop ge We need to modify the hours. So two people in control. So, they hours, and made control number t point, though -. From that time. Right. So MR. QM: So, I think this MR. QR: 9 -- 2:00 to 10:00 MR. QM: -- 2:00 to MR. Ha: -- now? MR. a : -- Correct. where I'm saying, it’s, like, if 26 ime, when he ghts, every My fault. then, 12:00 to ning watch, 4:00 to 12:00. trol one comes somebody, you ey, you need nerating money. , we don’t need modified the wo. , at this is, what, 2:00 So, that’s they’re EFTA00113341

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 n 1 leaving at 10:00 -- ies) a -- and the count is being 4 conducted at 10:00, and they usually get, you w know, they leave usually a couple minutes oO before, too. It sounds like, at tt time, on August 9th -- oo Fs) 2s o = H | | 9 MR a : -- you would have been 10 the one -- 11 MR. a: -- took the count. 2 MR. a : -- who took the count. WwW id K @ n 4 MR. ae : So, that’s where I just want to make sure we’re not getting -. Because w oO I'm getting confused with all this. 7 MR. QR: 9 Yeah. fos) 5 wn is) Oo =] he} Cc Q G 1) rt wo ct 7 . i a a oO 9 as control number one, you would have taken the 20 count? 21 MR. a: Yes. If my name is on that 22 form, I took the count 23 MR. a : Right. And no one else 24 would have been in there with you to take that 25 count -- EFTA00113342

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: No. MR. a : -- it would have just been you? Okay. All right. Because I was getting confused. All right. And then, as far as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number two, you would have also taken the count. Correct? MR. a: Yes. MR. QJ: the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? MR. Ha: Yes. If they filled that post, like, my name is there, so, they filled that post with overtime. So, that was me. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. i: So, I did that post. I worked that post. I generated the El. I went upstairs, conducted the count on the two housing units that I have to count, and then, I would go back downstairs, and finish the count on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me up, saying, hey, this is EN with the count of 14, and I would say, good count, bad count, and then, cross it off the on paperwork. MR. a : Okay. And then, we talked about who you worked with on August 9th. EFTA00113343

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 2 wo You its) aid that, although this says a. you think it’s somebody else? MR. aa: I think it’s can't remember. He don’t come in -. Oh, well. He’s internal. So, that’s the person that I'm helping to conduct the count with. he is doing MR. ae : -- he’s actually physically going to the different units? MR. Ee : Collecting count slips, 7) and things like that MR. QE: yes MR. a : And you’ re sisting, you EFTA00113344

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 30 MR. Ee : -- with him. But you’re also taking the counts? MR. aa: Yes. MR. a : Okay. Thank you. And who did you report to on these days? Are you always reporting to the MR. QR: yes. n been both times, because s listed, he was relieved ack then. They were working two he start of their shift. So, MR. aa: Yeah. I don’t - you know - I don’t recall (Indiscernible *00:21:20). The only thing I could try to recall was what I was aed doing because that’s all I could do. MR. a : Well, per th documents, at least, it shows Po would have -- if] ft] se EFTA00113345

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Yeah. It shows her name. MR. a : -- been the person you’re reporting to. Okay. Were you previously interviewed under this investigation? MR. Ha: Yes. You know, the first time. MR. a : Were you interviewed more than once? MR. i: No. Just once. MR. a : Okay. I'm going to just review the report that was written in regard to that interview. I just want you to - I'm not going to provide it to you because it’s written on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was present. So, it’s our information to have. So, I’ll read it to you. And just, if you can just stop me if there is anything in there that is not accurate. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : Okay? So, it says that, “Mr. i. Senior Officer Specialist at the Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional Center,” and it says, yada, yada, yada. “Was interviewed at the United States Attorney’s Office, Southern District of New York, 1 St. EFTA00113346

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 w ~] Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for the interview were FBI Special Agent | a. FBI Task Force Officer, TFO Ft a. Office of the Inspector General Special Agent a. and Assistant United States Attorney Ee AUSA EJ advisea that the interview was in lieu of an appearance before the federal grand jury, and is voluntary. SA | provided || with an OIG Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis form, which la signed, and was witnessed by SA's | | and a. SA || retained the original, and a copy is attached in the 1A section of this report. After being advised of the identity of the interviewing investigators, and the nature of the interview, JJ provided the following information. || worked for Corrections Corporation of America from approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started working for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 2019, || was assigned internal two on the morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 wu 3 This post helps with the count, getting paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00113347

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not require help for the count because there are officers stationed in those units that do the counts. During the morning watch shift of August 10th, || prepared the count by getting the paperwork together. Officer a. as the control officer, took officer’s phone calls, receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an officer calls into control with the count for a particular unit, control advises if the number was a good count or a bad count. Control has many different functions. So, when an officer calls in a count, control takes the officer’s word that the count was conducted. ia didn't think that control received the verbal count from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. However, he could not say for sure because he wasn’t the one taking the calls for the counts. || was assisting in doing the counts in the other units. || signed off on the counts because during that shift, he was the senior ranking officer. On the morning of August 10th, 2019 -.” Is that all correct? EFTA00113348

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 2 MR. a : Does that sound accurate. It sounds accurate. 4 MR. a : All right. Because the person | said -. I thought she said that Ww 5 K © wu i= w 6 she wasn’t taking the calls. | 8 MR. a: She wasn’t taking the calls? a: wo F 11 MR. a: We help each other. aa: Mm-hmm. You know, we help each N Fs) ive) a) 4 other. So, if I'm upstairs doing a count, and 5 it takes me a little longer to come downstairs, fea) n a oO = vill pick up the phone and take the counts. Now, if I go upstairs, and the Lee) 5 9 counts, you know, it’s a little faster, I will 20 come downstairs and I will take over the 21 paperwork, just, like, you pass me your 22 paperwork, I will let you do what 23 Let you finish doing your task, and I will take 24 it right back over where you left off. EFTA00113349

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. QM: and I will -- 2 MR. a : Because, yeah -- aa: -- (Indiscernible *00:25:11). 4 MR. QJ: -- 01 think her & wi ies) i 5 explanation was, she helped with, li you ved with , you were invo the counts, taking the counts on the phone, and @ | | 9 oi] Ke oO wu 5 10 MR. a : -- and writing the 1 counts. Is that accurate, actually? 2 MR. a: Yes. That’s accurate. ive) Fs) So, this actually is 4 inaccurate the way it says that she took all 5 the counts, and the phone calls, tt 16 MR. ia: I mean, I can't really remember Lee) 5 Okay. 9 MR. aa: -- what actually happened, but 20 like I said, we try to help each other out -- 21 MR. QM: sure. EFTA00113350

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want to make sure I understand, because your responsibility on August 10th was actually to take the calls, and take the verbal -- MR. a : -- counts. Correct? MR. a : Okay. Great. “On the morning of August 10th, 2019, a body alarm went off at approximately 6:33 a.m. | | responded to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, along with another officer. The Nine South officers, medical, and Lieutenant || were already at the location. With medical performing CPR. | | went to get a stretcher and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the medical unit. When emergency medical surveys arrived, they started performing CPR, took Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported him to the hospital. | | followed the ambulance to the hospital in another secure vehicle. | | stayed at the hospital until he was relieved from duty.” MR. a: Yes. EFTA00113351

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recall any specific state that Epstein was in when he responded to the scene. | | did recall that Epstein was still loose, because Epstein had to be put in restraints before he could be transported. However, there was no movement by Epstein on his own.” So, was Epstein still alive? MR. a: Their policy states that nobody passed away inside the institution. Like I said, when I responded, when I got to the post, in Nine South, he was already doing, performing CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. MR. a : Okay. MR. QM: They was already performing CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, someone needs to go get that gurney so they can carry him down to medical. So -- MR. a : And I understand -- MR. MMM: 9 -- (indiscernible *00:27:13). MR. a : -- that you’re not able to say if he was officially alive or dead, but was he showing any signs of life? MR. Ha: I don’t know. Once I see somebody performing CPR, that means something bad is going on. So -- EFTA00113352

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 w ~] MR. Ee : Did you see his eyes MR. a: -- honestly, I cannot really tell you what he looks like. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a: Because it’s been so long ago. And the only thing I know, they was performing CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if you’ re performing CPR, he’s definitely going to have to go down to medical. MR. a : Okay. So, you can't recall - even though this was a big incident, and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or anything like that? MR. Ha: I can't recall. MR. ae : Okay. yo acknowledged that he wrote a memo about the incident. This was due to the fact that when one responds to a body alarm, it has to be documented. [J did not recall any interactions with Epstein prior to Epstein’s death.” And that’s the end of that. MR. a: Okay. MR. a: Does all that seem EFTA00113353

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] accurate? MR. QM: Yes. attach that. Okay. I'm All right. So, we go over the count sheets that wer shoot. All right. So, these are count sheets for the (Indiscernib This one is -. I'm going to move here. So, this one wasn’t you. showing you, kind of, where I hav just the time, and then, I have, we're particularly interested in, be RA and ZA. MR. a : ZA stands fo Nine South. The Special And RA stands for R&D. MR. QR: yes. here is the one for 8/9/2019. It Correct? All right. this was the 5:00 a.m. count. Co All right. not going to are going to e done. Oh, just the le *00:28:43). this over I'm just e highlighted you know, what are going to r the SHU. Housing Unit. Great. So, looks like rrect? It shows in EFTA00113354

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, it’s 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One in attorney conference. And one in -. Or I'm sorry. 75 that were actually physically present in the SHU. Correct? MR. QE: 9 Mm-hon. MR. a : All right. And then, we’re going to go back, and now we’ll start looking at these count slips, just so we can kind of get an idea. All right. On the second to last page, there’s a ZA, it shows 75. I just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, time 4:00. It says Noel and | | signed for them. Correct? MR. Ha: Okay. MR. a : And then, attorney. It actually says three. A total of three, because they were from other units. All right. So, and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? MR. a: Yes. MR. a : All right. So, we’ve got the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we get to where you come in. So, this is the EFTA00113355

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 41 10:00 p.m. count. Correct? printed out at 9:33 p.m. - or R&D - both show zero. which is 5 N 'p i 73 on both columns. Correct? K 1) n MR. MR. a : All right. And would this be means you took the verbal count, as well? All right. And then, up EFTA00113356

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE here, we have an NS+1. were not crossed off? one on the R&D, and this plus one on the ZA, Noel. Correct? Would you be the ones 9:00, 10:00 p.m., it looks all of these count slips? Do you know why these were they your handwriting? n MR. a: Yes. 5 K o 0 hat 3 4 So, that is -- NS+1? nine S looks like my And do you know what Sometimes, they asked us to, you know, at the Sentry, it’s too late to punch in the body, oh, well, punch in the EFTA00113357

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 inmate into the specific housing unit because the count, you know, the count down states that, after, what? 8:00, after -. If the count is being conducted at 12:00, you have until 10:45, I think, to punch in any new inmate that is going to a specific unit. So, at this time, I believe - because only a lieutenant could tell us, to ghost count. MR. QR: Okay. MR. Ha: So, basically, the numbers are here, the numbers are right, but on this specific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs to be moved to Nine South. MR. QJ: Or: that they otherwise, Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. MR. Ha: Yeah. MR. ae : Because RA, or R&D, shows zero. MR. QE: 9 Mm-hon. MR. a : Correct? MR. a: Yeah. So, he’s in -. So, basically, he’s in RA right now. Because that’s why we got that little count slip saying RA plus one. Basically, he’s supposed to be Nine South. He’s supposed to be Nine South EFTA00113358

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LIMITED ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE plus one. But 44 right now, he’s in RA. MR. a : Okay. So, what is - when it says -. Should this say it’s supposed No. That’s supposed - yeah - to be minus one, but I guess that was an error by me. the one who wr MR. Ee : Okay. So, and are you MR. QR: like my handwr 9S+1? By looking at that. Now, this right here don’t look iting. MR. Ee : The plus one next to the ~ a) handwriting. Yeah. That don’t look like my But I know that Nine South, that nine and S right there is mine. MR. ae : So, he Nine South plus \ MR. a : Okay. And is there a reason why thi s wasn’t crossed out? EFTA00113359

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LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE 45 MR. Ha: I don't know. MR. a : Okay. And is there anything that you can think of, why wasn’t the person that was in R&D, why weren’t they € changed out of the SHU and put into R&D tw 2 internally, in the MR. a: I'm not too sure. MR. a : For El. So, by the way that this is -. Do you know if you did this at OP system fo 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you remember if you did it after the fact? MR. a: I can't remember, sir. MR. a : All right. But in order to do this, you’re saying that an Ops Lieutenant would have had to authorize that? MR. ae : So, you would have spoken MR. QJ: nd do you remember if you spoke to that person, though -? MR. a : All right. So, the fact » would that be an inaccurate count? If there EFTA00113360

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was only 72 people in the unit? MR. Ha: Yes. It would be an inaccurate count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that one. MR. a : All right. Did you drop the ball or did they? Because, look, I don’t want to say that you dropped the ball here, because it looks like, to me, there were 73 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at midnight, although this is 72 here, and this last page, it shows ZA, they’re still saying 73. And then, to get even a little more confusing, when I look at -. When you look at these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it starts the shift at 73. MR. a: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : And then, at 12:35, number one, negative one SHU correction, a. dry cell. And if you go back to this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., it says, fF was placed on dry cell from ZA. So, it looks like that was finally corrected at 12:35 a.m. EFTA00113361

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Okay. MR. a : So, does that help jog your memory at all about what happened here? MR. FR: No. MR. a : Do you think that, being that this count, this 73 matches up with this count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the midnight count slip still says 73, but at 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count slips, after midnight? MR. a: Hmm. I believe so. I can't really recall, but it looks like I dropped the ball somewhere. MR. a : But how would you have dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 73? MR. a: Because as you see right here, it says 73. So, something went wrong with the numbers. Something went wrong with the -- MR. a : Yeah. MR. Ha: -- numbers, but I know for sure that we had 73 or 72 at that time, on those units. EFTA00113362

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Yeah. No, I mean, so, our investigation, we believe, is showing us that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. However, the people in the unit were reporting 73, because that’s what the documentation showed, 73. So, they weren’t actually conducting their counts. They were reporting what they thought the numbers should be. MR. i: Yeah. MR. a : So, that’s what we’re asking you, if they’re reporting 73, and your document shows 73, I don't see how you’re dropping the ball. Do you? MR. QM: I mean, somehow, somehow, you know, like, you showed me my handwriting right here, on the highlight -- MR. ae : Well, that’s where a portion of me wanting - believes that you probably did this. So, every count slip here is crossed off. Aside from these two. Why would that be? MR. a: I don't know. MR. a : Do you know if these count slips would have been re-created? MR. a: I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00113363

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 w ~] ive) looks like FY handwriting. That looks like Noel’s handwriting. So, you know, everybody has a, you know, like, a certain type of handwriting. MR. a : Okay. Yeah, so, can you think of a reason why you would cross all these off, though, and not these two? MR. a: I'm not too sure. I can't remember. MR. a : Have you ever seen that before? MR. a: Sometimes, it happens. MR. QJ: anc -. MR. Ha: Like, especially if count slips come down late. Sometimes it could happen. Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another task, and I just, you know, looked at it, looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, I stapled everything together. That could happen too. So -- MR. QR: okay. MR. Ha: -- because sometimes, we have another task to go do. MR. a : Now, at the 12:00 a.m. count, on August 10th, does that mean that EFTA00113364

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 50 Po was in there taking the count f there, and you said you can only put a plus one on a count slip if it’s approved by the Op ifs) Lieutenant. MR. a : Does that tell you se plus ones probably count? after MR. a: No. I don't know. you said you couldn’t do the -. uldn’t put these plus ones at 10:00 p.m. took the count -- mR. QJ: -- sat 12:00. MR. aa: So, this had to be done before 10:00 p.m. Or during -- MR. ae : Well, the counts had to Q oO | I MR. a: -- or during 10:00 p.m. but these marks EFTA00113365

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 73 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, they didn't necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. Correct? MR. Ha: Yes. These have to be done at 10:00 p.m. MR. a : But the actual Nine South plus one, and this -- MR. MB: Yeah. MR. a : -- plus one -- MR. Ha: Yeah. That’s after. MR. a : -- can't be done after the fact? MR. QM: Maybe a little bit after. Maybe a little bit after because the count probably didn't clear until -. The count didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this probably was during that timeline, from either 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be brought about or generated. MR. a : All right. Well, so, this person who is in R&D, it’s this person, like I just mentioned, a . This is an inmate quarter history. This person wasn’t removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. EFTA00113366

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : When - again - she was there. Ops Lieutenant ee. So, are you sure that this Nine South plus one, and this plus one would have taken place at that 10:00 p.m. count? MR. QB: Yeah. MR. a : Because why - if that were the case - why wouldn’t this have happened well before the 12:00 p.m. count? Because again, this R&D slip, there’s not even somebody there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. count? Or why would have she caught it at 12:35 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 73 on their count slip? You follow what I'm saying? MR. a : Does that make you think about them a little bit differently? MR. Ha: 73 is what the count is supposed to be? MR. a: No. 72 is what the count EFTA00113367

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LIMITED ies) co co OFFICIAL USE MR. a : The count w b- to Pp. o oi] K oO 7) The count slip is MR. QM: So, at 10:00 p.m. guy 73. Your El shows uy ts) are reflecting supposed to be 7 MR. QE: MR. a : This one, they re MR. ia: -- I dropped the ball - MR. aa: -- I must have dropped right there. though, with this, you’re telling me th handwriting had to have happened at the p.m. count. MR. 7) And you I'm askin , these there’s 73. So, you have a good count. flect -- the ball ve , at his still EFTA00113368

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~] oo wo i=) MR. a: I believe so. Yeah. I believe so, because why is it there? You know? And -- MR. aa: -- (Indiscernible *00:42:2 oO ). MR. a : -- own idea is it’s there is because you now have the person, the Ops Lieutenant, at 12:00 a.m. saying, hey, go back to this count slip, put these plus ones, so it 6 o Hh b oO Q ct i] ct a w ct A where these people actually were. Did that make sense? MR. a : Do you understand what he -- MR. ae: About the fact that -- MR. a: -- I know what he’s saying. MR. a : -- the actual (Indiscernible *00:42:44) of that inmate missing. MR. QM: 9 Yeah. MR. ae: Didn't happen until passed to midnight, because if not, the corrections would have had to happen at 10:00 p.m. mR. QE: ves. MR. QJ: yeah. So -- EFTA00113369

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo wn MR. Ha: Now, now -. MR. a : -- if this was caught at 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn’t be messed up. That person would have been keyed out. Right? MR. QB: 9 veah. MR. a : But he wasn’t keyed out until 12:35 a.m. MR. a : But their slip is still MR. a : -- at 12:00 a.m. MR. Ha: Their slip is bad. MR. a : So, the count slip is bad. That count number is good. That is the real count number. The question is, when did this happen? To me, it looks like the people in the SHU were just reporting the number they thought they were supposed to be giving to you. 73. They didn't realize that this guy wasn’t in there. He was actually in R&D. He was in R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. count is bad. The 10:00 p.m. count is bad. And finally, at midnight, it’s caught. So, I EFTA00113370

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don’t - the way I look at it - it’s not a drop the ball on you. Because you didn't know that that guy wasn’t in there. So, we’re trying to help you put the pieces together of, if this is your actual handwriting, when would have that happened? To me, it seems like you’re relying on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured it out is because she’s getting count slips. I don't know when this count slip would have come in, but there’s a count slip for R&D at 10:00 p-m., and there’s another count slip for R&D at midnight. But like we said, this is the one thing that’s bad, this is bad, if that actually came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in R&D. MR. Ha: Okay. MR. es : But the thing that we’re trying to piece together, and what we’re trying to talk to, is two) because of when were these things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you know, notations made on these two count slips; and second, why are they the only two that are EFTA00113371

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. I don’t have no answer MR. a : You don’t remember that hat question. at all? you remember, at all, any were had with the SHU that night, with regard to these counts? Or MR. a: I can't recall. Do you we’re told that the Ops Lieutenant, a - aa. claims she may have had a conv 5 remember - so, i) i a) wu rt b (e) 3 with the SHU, and where this person is - do yo remember that at all? wouldn’t have been on the phone for that. MR. a : But wouldn’t you have EFTA00113372

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LIMITED ies) w Oo co wo i=) ive) w OFFICIAL USE been next to her, control, correct? mR. QE: ves. talking, different task, have to do, too. a: MR. QE: MR. But cleaning out the folders. MR. 10:30 p.m. time? MR. MR. nothing that you can on, with these count MR. ER: No. MR. ae : And is it fair to say, though, you do not know when you put these Nine S plus one on the R&D, and then, the plus one on the ZA? MR. QE: right here. Now, tho I probably was because I have paperwork that I around this uw o if she was in ugh, But, you know, like, if focused on a Okay. around the Okay. So, kind of help shed slips? I don’t have nothing. y handwriting So, the plus one next to EFTA00113373

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE wo ite) I don’t think that’s me. But I MR. QE: know for sure that’s me. Right there. What do you know is for sure? one here MR. a: It looks similar, but I don’t believe that’s my handwriting. But it could be. It could be. isn't yours, and just the nine S is yours. Or maybe this plus one MR. a: You know, it could be my handwriting. And I can't -- MR. ae : It could be. MR. aa: -- I can't remember. You know, All right. MR. a: -- a while. MR. ae : It’s been a while. But -- anything like this EFTA00113374

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ever happened before? That you can think of. MR. Ha: Probably. I mean, you know -- MR. a : Have you seen -- MR. a: -- it’s not a -- MR. a : -- things like -? MR. a: -- it’s not a, you know, it’s not a -. It’s not a, you know, it’s not a science. You know? Mistakes do happen. Because we do drop the ball. That’s why we have to, you know, view each other, and be, you know, and work behind each other, and look over each other’s shoulder. It can be possible. MR. a : So, any one that we’ve showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I’ve never seen anything like that before. But this has actually happened in the past, where you’ve seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine S plus one? MR. a: Sometimes. Like I said, you know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., R&D should have gone home already. MR. a : Yeah. So, they have a guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, watching him. EFTA00113375

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LIMITED ies) co co OFFICIAL USE 61 MR. a : Correct? And that’s where wR. [: = ther A is no count -- 0) MR. ae : -- slip from -- MR. Ee : -- for the 4:00 p.m. O Fh MR. a : He’s never keyed out So, again, I haven't been looking at you as dropping the ball on this. So, plain to think dropped the ball here. I should have caught it. I said something about it. And maybe MR. a : But how would have you -. EFTA00113376

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ha: -- maybe actually had a fault over it, you know? Started, you know, complaining about it. I don't know. You know? MR. a : How would have you known that it was nine S plus one? Would SHU have to have told you that there was somebody? MR. QR: ves. MR. ae : So, you believe you called the SHU, and they told you? MR. Ha: I don’t -. I can't recall if I called SHU or not. I probably was doing what I was told. Because, as an officer, that’s, you know, I know that’s a no-no. You can't put that. MR. a : Okay. So, if there are only 72 inmates in the SHU -- MR. Ha: That should have been minus one. Like you said. MR. Ee : -- but this slip that they gave you in the first place was wrong. Correct? Shouldn't have their slip that they provided to you say 72? MR. QR: Yes. MR. a : So, does that indicate that they didn't do the count, to you? EFTA00113377

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: No. You could still do the count. I mean, you could still do the count, but if somebody, you know, higher up said, yo, this is what you need to put on the count slip, that’s what you put on the count slip. Now, you know, like, somebody dropped the ball. MR. es : And that’s where, again, my opinion has always been all along that it was the SHU that dropped the ball. So, I want you to keep in mind, again, because there’s still Noel and Thomas. On this 10:00 p.m. one is Noel and a. On the 12:00 a.m. one, it’s Noel and Thomas. Both of their count slips say 73. So, if somebody told somebody at 10:00 p.m. that there was actually only 72, which is what I'm gathering you’re trying to say, why at 12:00 a.m. would of they continued to write 73? MR. a: I don't know, sir. MR. a : And that’s where -- MR. QM: 9 (indiscernible *00:49:33). MR. a : -- and that, again, that’s where I just want to make sure we’re not tripping over ourselves here because that is, to me, highly unlikely that if you spoke to the EFTA00113378

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 SHU at 10:00 p.m., a 2 someb 3 write 4 5 6 7 8 12:35 9 10 11 2 just 3 4 15 offic 16 lieut 7 8 take 9 20 21 22 name, 23 that 24 look 25 last, ody in R&D, the 73 at 12:00 a MR. QE: es : wR. BR: -- as : I'm MR. MR. generate MR. QR: And who I'm pre MR. er, enant took the this MR. QR: she took count -- Like the c was preparing t see i at it, last from the -Mm. nd told them, we got y wouldn’t continue to Would they? not Especially if -- Indiscernible *00:49:55). -- the El now, because at that it says 72 -- the El. Like, at this time, I Right I put my name as the paring. Now, if the count, you know, like -- And the lieutenant can't -- correct? , the lieutenant wrote her ount. Me as the officer his, I should have took a f the numbers all jive from count. But I figured that EFTA00113379

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE is) w the El was correct, and it cleared, in good verbal, and it cleared. So, nobody didn't think nothing of it. MR. a : So, if the Ops Lieutenant is supposed to be taking the 12:00 a.m. count, and the 12:00 a.m. count slip from the SHU is saying 73, whereas the El says 72, is tt on the Ops Lieutenant? MR. i: Bad on both parties. MR. a : Would you be assisting her with this? MR. QR: No. MR. a : During that time. s Oo, on this part, how would you be involved, if she’s doing it herself? MR. Ha: I should have took a look at the numbers before I gave it to her. MR. a : But it looks like this was printed out at the same time that -. this person was keyed out at 0035. MR. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. So, MR. ae : This El was printed out MR. QR: Mm-hon. MR. QJ: «So, it looks like was EFTA00113380

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ) oO the exact same thing. She keyed out this person, a. from SHU and placed him in R&D, at the exact same time this El was printed out. MR. a : Correct? MR. QM: so —-. MR. i: Okay. Now I see where you’re going. This is way after the 12:00. MR. Ee : This is way after the 12:00. But this count slip says 73. The 10:00 7) p.m. count slip also says 73. My point being is, I don’t think you did anything wrong here. I think this thing, the El, shows 73. They’re rt providing you something that says 73. So, to me, you're good. But the question is, when did these things come into play. One of these notations. MR. QM: oI can't remember. MR. a : You can't remember? MR. Ha: I can't remember. But I know that Nine South is mine. MR. a : So, you know that you wrote this? EFTA00113381

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) oa ~] MR. QR: 9 yeah. MR. a : And you believe you would have wrote it, though, per the Ops Lieutenant’s direction? MR. QR: 9 Yeah. MR. QJ: 411 right. So, Lieutenant |S who was the Ops Lieutenant, would have instructed you to do that? MR. QR: 9 Yeah. MR. Ee : And don’t you believe that she would have done that, told you to do that after she realized that person wasn’t in SHU, that person was in R&D? MR. i: Oh, probably. Probably, it was a miscommunication about where that inmate was truly at. MR. a : So, does that make you think, re-think what you said, then? You said, at 10:00 p.m., you would have - 10:00, 10:30 p.m. - you would have made those notations, but now, does it make you think, oh, you know what? It probably was afte ta] the 12:00 p.m. count that I made those notations? MR. QR: No. EFTA00113382

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL because this wi I did t MR. talking MR. wouldn' count, having fact, a there? USE a co Per her instruction. No. I wouldn’t have did this I would have known this is, you know, 11 w P- Hh come back the ass and bite y his about -- Mm-hmm. nd the Nine South plus after -- No, no, no, I'm not -- midnight. the whole concept. I'm simply talking about one. Oh, I H Hmm. don’t -. t have did that oOo t ct wv oO hb N o after, at going backwards. a conversation with her, mber i) So, do y rem then, after the nd letting her know FY isn't can't remember. I'm sorry. You know, I'm just, again That was EFTA00113383

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE 69 MR. Ee : -- the reason -. So, if you did notice it, how would have you noticed the -. Oh, well, I did p.m. count. You would h ld have had to tell during the 10:00 p.m. count, that this h happened? MR. Ee : And then, again, this is The 35 and the 35. Do you follow me? MR. Why wouldn't that have happened until then? Especially if you noticed this. Why would the SHU have continued to MR. a: Can I ask a question? EFTA00113384

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 come on her shift that night? 2 MR. QR: on. MR. ae : Do you recall? 4 MR. a : We were talking about ies) 5 10:00 p.m. 6 MR. ae: Was she around when this 7 10:00 p.m. count came in? 8 MR a: Yes. She should have been on 9 duty at that time. 10 MR. a: Do you recall -- 11 MR. a: Now, what time -- 3 MR. aa: -- what time did she come on 4 duty? I can't really remember because they’ve 15 been changing their times, you know -- 16 MR. QJ: 9 Okay. 7 MR. a: -- so, I can't really remember 8 at that time. 9 MR. a : Do you recall any 20 conversations with her? Forget the With 21 her, regarding somebody being in R&D? 22 MR. QR: 9 umn. 23 MR. a: Or the El being wrong, 24 between 10:00 p.m. and midnight. 25 MR. a: Hmm. No. I truly can't EFTA00113385

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 recall. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: So, I have follow up on the 10:00. Right? So, you did the 10:00 p.m., right? And I just realized something, too. If this count slip came up, right? The 10:00 p.m. count slip came up, and the SHU is on the -. Right? How come the El didn't get updated? MR. MM: = can't -. MR. a: What is the normal procedure? Let’s say it turns out that you’re doing the count, right? MR. a: And we (Indiscernible *00:55:40). MR. a: And you have a body in R&D. Right? And there’s a count slip here. What should have happened? MR. a: What should had happened is another El should have been generated. Like, this one was, after the 12:00. MR. a: But that one was generated. MR. ae : I just want to make sure I -. (Indiscernible *00:56:04) MR. a: (Indiscernible *00:56:03) MR. QJ: 9 (indiscernible *00:56:03) EFTA00113386

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. QE: MR. QR: No, 9:30. ve. (: MR. QB: MR. QE: p.m. count. MR. QE: MR. : Oh, 9:33. And this is for th And this is for the a So, you’ve saying El is for the 10:00 p.m. count, was printed out at 9:33 p.m.? MR. QE: un. : Yes. And being the fact slip came up from R&D, you’re saying El for the 10:00 p.m. -- A new El should have generated, but we’re supposed to not Or no. I'm not normally, normal too clear on how -. ly, we don’t do -. e 10:00 that a that a new been do that. Like, I Normally, we don’t generate another El unless somebody tells us to. El. But I should have just Who would have to that a new El had to be generated? ve. QR: ourselves to generate an El. Normally, we take it Like, did a new tell you upon I should EFTA00113387

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 had generated a new El. MR. QJ: «Should -. Okay. At that point, being the fact that there’s a body in R&D, right? And somehow, it got marked because it looks like it was associated, it says nine S, to the SHU slip. MR. Ha: Yeah. MR. a: That there was a body moved. Should there have been a flag that there was somebody missing in the system? MR. Ha: Yeah. There should have been a flag. MR. a : So, what should have happened? Was the count right, at that point? MR. i: Paper wise, no, the count was not right. MR. a: So, what should have happened? MR. a: A new El should have been generated. The inmates name should have been, you know, sent to CNA, so we could process, to type them into the system. MR. a: What should have happened to the count slips? MR. a: They should have been trashed, EFTA00113388

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 and new count slips should have been generated. 2 MR. a: Do you recall having any 3 conversations with anyone in the SHU that 4 night? 5 MR. QR: No, sir. 6 MR. QJ: «what about R&D? 7 MR. a: If it’s 10:00 p.m., R&D already 8 left 9 MR. a : But keep in mind, this 10 somebody, this | is in there, right? 11 MR. a: In custody. 2 MR. a : According to the count slip, 4 MR. a: In custody. 15 MR. a: -- in custody, but he’s 16 sitting in R&D right now -- 7 MR. || : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. a : -- because they have a body 9 sitting in dry cell, and he’s watching over -- 20 MR. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. 21 MR. ae: -- the person in dry cell, in 22 R&D. Now that, when | sends to you - 23 sends a count slip, and FY says, hey, 24 listen, I’ve got a body sitting here, right, 25 and you see the El, should a conversation been EFTA00113389

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 ~) wi had with a. also? MR. QM: Yes. mR. QJ: «anc -. MR. Ha: Like I said, | is just a correctional officer. He probably was pretty new. So, he probably didn't know, either. You know what I'm saying? You know, he probably didn't know to call CNA, or -- MR. a: But know what, though? MR. QM: 9 -- (Indiscernible *00:58:43). MR. a: Sorry. What would he not MR. a: Probably not know -. He probably thought that the inmate was already in the system, because he’s sitting on the post. MR. a: No, no, but I'm saying that, you have an El sitting in front of you, with zero, sitting in R&D. He’s sending you a slip for one person. MR. a: Should a conversation had been had with a. hey, listen, who do you have there? mR. QE: ves. MR. a : Was a conversation like that EFTA00113390

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 ever happened that night? MR. Ha: I don’t recall. MR. QR: 9 okay. MR. a : Okay. And you’re just -. Point being on this, that’s your handwriting, you just don’t remember what happened, or when it happened? MR. a: Yes, sir. MR. a : Correct. But you do - you’re sticking with - you do believe that you would have written that stuff during the 10:00 p.m. count, and not after it was recognized at 12:35 a.m. -- MR. BR: Yes. MR. a : -- so, you think that you did this actually during that count? MR. QM: yes. MR. a : That’s just what’s baffling to me. But if you did that during that count, wouldn't you have contacted the SHU, to let them know that their count is wrong? MR. MMMM: yes. I think either A, either I would have did it, or send it what I did it, but I don’t recall talking to Nine South and EFTA00113391

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 myself. 2 MR. a : Right. And per the Ops 3 Lieutenant, she said that she had the 4 conversation with them, and she said she had 5 the conversation with them during the 12:00 6 a.m. count. 7 MR. a: I'm not too sure. 8 MR. a : Okay. 9 MR. a: I can't -. 10 MR. a : And you don’t remember 11 that conversation? 2 MR. aa: I don’t remember. 3 MR. a : All right. So, you 4 believe the R&D unit, at least the Nine S is 15 your handwriting. On the 10:00 p.m., ZA count 16 slip, the SHU count slip, you do not believe 7 that plus one is your handwriting? 8 MR. aa: No, I don’t believe, but it 9 could be mine. 20 MR. QM: Okay. 21 MR. a: Because I did take the count. 22 MR. ae : All right. And you don’t 23 know why you would have crossed every other 24 count slip off, aside from this, these two? 25 MR. ER: No. EFTA00113392

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And you know if you’ve ever done that in the past? MR. QR: No. MR. QJ: Okay. All right. All right. Let’s move on. If you do remember anything about that, again, in our mind, we’ve been going upon the fact that the SHU is reporting what they think the El is supposed to be, you know, the El says and what they’re supposed to be reporting. They’re reporting they’ re incorrect numbers, from at last 3:15 p.m. They have one less than the number that they’ re actually showing on their count slips. That’s for the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. count, and even the 12:00 a.m. count. So, if you can remember anything with regard to that knowledge, but after the fact that we speak, you know, and when these things happened, we would so greatly appreciate you calling us -- MR. Ha: Okay. MR. a : -- and letting us know. When we go through documents, rather than bombarding you at the end, we ask people to initial and date those documents. So, I’1l just - while we’re at it - I'm going to show. EFTA00113393

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Is this 3:00 a.m. count on August 10th, 2019, was that you, as well? MR. a: That’s mine. MR. a : All right. Great. So, this first El, it shows - again - ZA now shows 72, ZA says 72. RA says one, RA says one. And the same thing with these count slips, the back ZA says -. Now, the ZA does say 72. So, they changed from their 12:00 a.m. count slip, where they’ re reporting 73, to now the 3:00 a.m. count slip, they’re showing 72. RA is, again, showing one. Correct? MR. a: Yes. MR. QJ: | And would this be a big deal, if this kind of stuff happened? Where the Els are bad, the count slips are wrong. MR. QM: yes. MR. QM: nd being that this is, like, a big deal, this isn't at all sticking out to you -- MR. a: I mean -- MR. a : -- remind you that -. MR. Ha: -- yeah, but, like, this is the first time, you know, I'm talking about these Els, y’all are the first people that brought EFTA00113394

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 this to my attention. MR. a : Oh, so, you never even knew that until now? MR. a: I never knew this until now. MR. a : And even at this time, though, when it was happening, no one ever brought it to your attention that, dude, these count slips aren't matching up what the El says? MR. ER: No. MR. a : So, you don’t even remember that taking place? MR. a: No, sir. MR. ae : All right. And then, here’s the 5:00 a.m. count, created by you. Or, you know, it shows, again, one in RA, 72 in ZA, or the SHU. And here’s the RA count one slip. Here’s the 72 for ZA. Again, Noel and Thomas. All right. So, these all look good. Now, is this normal, to print out the -. So, the 5:00 a.m. and the 3:00 a.m. counts were both printed out at 1:22 a.m. Is that normal? MR. Ha: Sometimes, the computers go down EFTA00113395

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LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 81 MR. Ha: So, me personally, I know that the computers go down. Meaning that Sentry, for the BOP, normally goes down. So, I try to print up several copies, so just in case if the computers go down, I have copies already. MR. QM: okay. MR. Ha: Now, on a typical, normal shift, when the computers are up and running, Sentry is up and running, I try to print it out an hour of the count. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a: Within the hour, you mean? MR. a: Oh, within the -- MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. i: -- within the hour of the MR. a: Okay. MR. a: You know, 45 minutes to an hour of the count. MR. QJ: §9=Do you recall, any time that night, receiving any replacement count slips? MR. Ha: I can't really -. MR. a: Any conversations about, hey, listen, there’s a second set of count slips coming up from the SHU? Or anything to that EFTA00113396

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE ffect? i] And again, do you mind just, all these documents, just initial and to that this interview. Just the top of each one. And this is just for accuracy? 3) ces) hat these are the Fs) I I fn ct wu rt 0) cr Q s) a Cc =| D 3 ct 0) un J Oo = oO QA Oo & a oo EFTA00113397

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Yeah. So, by you putting your initials and dates on it, we can say, we can positively confirm this is the document we talked about. MR. Ha: Okay. MR. a : So, we can't go back later and, like, change something and say, no, we talked about this document, and say, no, no, no, no, it’s got my initial and my date, you know, my date on here. This is specifically what we talked about. Do you follow what I'm saying? MR. a: Yeah. MR. QJ: | Just to show what the documents you were presented, you know, what documents you were presented. So, it sounds, like, by when you’re saying that you think you dropped the ball, it sounds like what you’re saying is, you knew that someone was gone from the SHU, and it was in R&D at 10:00 p.m., but you never contacted the SHU to let them know, or to ask them about it? Or you just don’t remember? MR. a: No. I just don’t remember. EFTA00113398

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: You know, I apologize if I can't help you anymore. Since this is the first time I'm hearing about this, y’all bringing it to my attention. MR. a : But you do agree that the SHU should have been providing count slips that said 72, both at the 10:00 p.m. and the 12:00 a.m. count. Correct? Being that he was moved from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., the day before? Or on August 9th. MR. Ha: I do agree because that’s a part of your post orders. And I, you know, that’s a part of our function. MR. QM: Yeah. So -- MR. MBM: 9 (indiscernible *01:07:12) custody. MR. ae : -- the count slips were bad. And regardless of what you can remember, the 10:00 p.m., or actually, the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m., and the 12:00 a.m. count slips provided by the SHU were all bad because this guy was moved to the R&D holding cell at least 3:15 p.m. Correct? MR. a: Yes. MR. a: Yes. They all should be EFTA00113399

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 one less than what they were reporting? MR. Ha: Yeah. Yes. MR. a : Okay. Thank you. And again, though - and I want to be clear on this - by you putting 9S+1 on the RA count slip, and plus one on the ZA count slip, that would have had to have been by the direction of the Ops Lieutenant? MR. i: Yes. Somebody higher up than MR. a : Okay. What is your understanding of what happened to Epstein on August 9th and 10th of 2019? MR. Ha: My understanding is that he committed suicide. MR. Ee : Okay. And what is your understanding of how he died? MR. a: He died by hanging himself. MR. Ee : Okay. Do you have any information with regard to any suspicious activity that occurred on August 93th or 10th, 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in his cell? mR. BR: No. MR. a: All right. I'm just EFTA00113400

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LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE B86 going to over these very generally. These issues. What do you know of Epstein’s alleged first suicide attempt on July 23rd, 2019? MR. a: Nothing. I don’t think I was here at that time. I mean, I think I was either off, or I called out. So, I don't really know about his first hanging. MR. a : Okay. Now, was he -- suicide watch? MR. a: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And then, being placed on suicide watch, when they returned to the SHU, was he required to have a cell mate? MR. Ha: Yes. I believe so. MR. ae : Okay. Is everybody that returns to the SHU required to have a cell mate if they’re on suicide watch? MR. QR: yes. MR. a : Okay. Do you know if Epstein was prematurely removed from suicide watch? MR. a: I don’t know. But I believe so because, you know, I mean, he’s fighting a very EFTA00113401

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 big case. MR. SE: | Me-hon. MR. a: And so, if he tried the first er time, I definitely believe he would try again. MR. a : And do you know why he was removed from suicide watch after the first attempt? MR. i: I'm not too sure. There was speculation, you know, they said rumors about the court system, you know, since this case is so big, he needs access to his lawyers. He needs access to his paperwork. So, maybe, maybe, maybe his lawyer pulled in some paperwork to a judge, and the judge probably said, yo, he needs to have access to his paperwork. I'm not too sure. MR. a : So, you had heard that, possibly, the judge contacted who? The warden? MR. QM: Possibility. I don't know. MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: No. I'm too small on the food chain to know this information. MR. a : And who did you hear -- MR. QM: All that. EFTA00113402

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) MR. Ee : -- that from? MR. Ha: It was just rumors, and word of mouth, of, you know, how us officers talk. MR. a : Okay. But you had heard that the judge contacted the warden? MR. a: You know, I can't say it’s for MR. QM: Right. MR. i: It’s just, you know, what, you know, it was, like, drinking. You know, drinking, having a couple beers, this is what’s going on in the building, this is what I heard. Some of it is true. Some of it is very not true. MR. QM: Sure. MR. Ha: So, I don't know. I can't really say that’s definitely. MR. a : Okay. And what do you know about Epstein’s cell mate being removed > from the MCC on August 9th, 2019? c MR. a: I think he got released. I think he got released. MR. a : So, he was transferred. But - all right - did you have anything to do with -. Did you know his cell mate was Efrain EFTA00113403

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ao wo 1 ? Did you know that? 2 MR. a: I heard of his name. But I'm 3 not too sure since I don’t work nights at all. 4 MR. a : Okay. Had you heard that he was transferred, or released? 6 wR. QR: 9 just -- w 7 MR. a : Like, removed from the 8 MCC? 9 MR. a: -- I heard that his bunkee was 10 released. 11 MR. CR: Okay 2 MR. QR: 9 Now, that’ how sure it is, how definite, I don’t know. 4 MR. ae : Now, with you being in all I heard. Like, 7] f ive) 15 the positions that you were in on August 9th 16 and August 10th, working in internal and control, would you have anything to do with 8 that, with making sure the SHU was aware that 9 Reyes was not coming back to the institution? 21 MR. QJ: No? Okay. What time did 22 you begin work again on August 9th? At 6:00. 23 Or -- 24 mR. QJ: 94:00. 25 MR. a : -- at 4:00. So, what EFTA00113404

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 time does the -. If inmates aren't back from -- what time does the Okay. That’s R&D’s job. R&D’s job is to, you know, delegate all the courts, and we don’t touch that. Now, if an inmate comes in late, like, you know, like you showed me, like if an inmate comes in late, or have to stay in R&D late, and I have to move him later, to another housing unit, like take him off of RA and put him, or put him in Nine South, ZA. That’s what I do. I just type, type, type -- Mm-hmm. MR. a: -- transfer. All right. So, and let’s Who should have keyed fF out of the SHU and placed him into the R&D? Take him out of SHU, place him into R&D, it’s supposed to be CNA. EFTA00113405

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : Okay. And then, who - if this happened at about 3:15 p.m. Let’s see, the (Indiscernible *01:13:08) - who, on this daily schedule for August 3th, should have done that? If it happened at about 3:00 in the afternoon. MR. QR: of it happened at 3:00 in the afternoon, whoever was in CNA, CNA during. MR. a: We’1ll explain the situation a little bit. He was a SHU inmate. He had visitation. He went into the visitation, and officers saw him possibly receiving contraband. MR. a : Visitation in the SHU, though. So -- MR. QJ: «9 In the suv. MR. QJ: -- this is sxu visitation, the SHU officer saw the contraband, and moved him to R&D dry cell. MR. a: Oh, okay. MR. QJ: | And moved him to medical, I think, and then R&D dry cell. MR. a : Does that make sense? So, who would have been -? But that happened at 1:40. EFTA00113406

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. i: Yes. So, that happened -. 2 MR. a : So, the visitation at 1:40, we just know by 3:15, at least, he was ies) 4 put into R&D dry cell. w a MR. aa: That should have been control 7 MR. a : And who was in that 8 position at that time? a: This wo F 7) et o fw he w 11 MR. QJ: 411 right. was the one who was supposed to make sure that N 4 MR. a: No, it would have -. 5 2:00? Okay. I don't know what this is. 2:00 16 to 8:00. 7 MR. QJ: 9 Mm-hon. aa: 6:00 to 14. Wait a minute. Lee) 5 9 Control number two. It should have been -. 20 Well, who’s supposed to be there? Because this 21 is what -. Could you -? 22 MR. QJ: 9811 right. : a: 23 MR Okay. You said by, in between 24 times -- 25 MR. QJ: tt looks like 1:00 -- EFTA00113407

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LIMITED w ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE MR. a : -- was when it happened. But then, he was placed - we know, at least - in R&D, according to the lieutenant’s log, at 3:15, he was placed into R&D dry cell. So, I don't know. Well, if they found him with some kind of thing on him, and he went to -. Would he have to go to medical first? MR. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : So, he would go to SHU. Would he then go to medical? And then, from medical to R&D dry cell? MR. Ee : In order for him to pass something? MR. QB: 9 Yeah. MR. Ee : Is that how it would work? MR. a: It’s supposed to work like that. It’s supposed to -. Normally, we take an inmate straight to -. If our scanner is working, we’re supposed to take them there first. Go put him through the scanner. Once EFTA00113408

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he goes through the scanner, now he’s supposed to go an available dry cell. Now, I don't know if they used R&D, or if they used our HA unit. HA unit is normally where we put everybody for dry cell. MR. a : Yeah, no, this was an odd thing that they put him in R&D, right? MR. QM: And then, you know, if sometimes they choose to put him down in HA. Sometimes they choose to put him in R&D. Sometimes they choose to go straight to Nine South. If there’s available - Nine South - if there’s an available, empty cell. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. i: They will take him straight to Nine South, and put an officer in front of his door to watch him. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: If there’s an available cell. Because normally, sometimes, most of the time, Nine South gets a little crowded. So, we don’t have an available cell to put an inmate that’s supposed to be on dry cell. So, they have to figure it out, where are they going to put him, either in R&D, put an officer, or HA, put an EFTA00113409

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE fe] wi 1 officer. 2 MR. a : But in this case, though, 3 if at 1:40, it’s found out, and then, by at 4 least 3:15, he’s moved to R&D. Who should have 5 - at 3:15 - coded him into R&D, and out of SHU? Oo wz a Oo Ikay. Control number two. It 7 should have been in between Viera (Phonetic Sp. 8 *01:16:44) or J. 9 MR. QM: «411 right. So then, if 10 it was at 3:15, I'm assuming it would have been 11 | because -- ive) a) a : -- that’s from -. He 4 started at 2:00. Correct? 15 MR. QR: ves. 16 MR. Ee : All right. But you said 7 that you don’t even think | worked that 8 day. You said it was somebody else? 9 MR. aa: I'm not too sure. I can't 20 remember. 21 MR. QJ: 411 right. And this is 22 the position that would have been for 23 Fernandez. So, I'm circling his name and 24 writing Fernandez movement. 25 MR. ae: You said you’re not sure if EFTA00113410

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 | worked that day? 2 MR. a: I'm not too sure. Okay. Yeah. And | 4 was listed on the 4:00 p.m. count. ite] nn ies) a w 5 e) — w kK 6 MR. a : So, that would have been 7 | that should have done it? 8 MR 9 MR ay. What about 10 with Reyes? And if the SHU knew that Reyes left 11 WAB, but they believed he went to court, rather 2 than transferred. So, if they know he’s WAB, ive) and he went to court, is there an argument to 4 be had that they thought he could possibly have 5 returned that day? 16 MR. ia: To be honest I don't know. Since I don’t -- Lee) 5 If someone’s listed -. 9 MR. aa: -- since I don’t work Nine Okay. 22 MR. ia: -- and I try to - I tend to 23 stay out of their business. No 5 But when there’s a court wi list and it shows WAB next to someone’s name -- No EFTA00113411

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- or then, I shouldn’t say court list. What’s it called? Because you just corrected us. Not the court list, but that would be -- MR. a: The call out. MR. a : -- the call out list. MR. QE: Yes. MR. QJ: so, if the call out list says, “Reyes, WAB” should they know that he’s not going to return? MR. BR: ves. MR. a : Okay. So, would there be anything for someone in, like, control or internal to do, at around the 4:00 count, to verify that he is actually, in fact, not returning? MR. a: No. Since Nine South is the only small entity, we try not to - you know - like, it can be -. You know, we can drop the ball. Like, if I'm control, you are internal, we can drop the ball because we assume that Nine South already know. Because they are, you know, those men and women that work up there, they already know. EFTA00113412

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And why would they already know? MR. a: Because they work there. But, like I said earlier, a lot of, you know, a lot of staff have left at that time, either they quit, either they retired, either that they, you know, found another job. So, we was lacking a lot of staff during this time. MR. a : Okay. MR. Ha: So, everybody is on overtime. If you look, I was on overtime. So, when a lot of people was on overtime. Now, like I said, maybe - you know what I'm saying? - maybe, if I was more diligent in Nine South business, maybe I could have said something. But I wasn’t, since I wasn’t working that post. I didn't think nothing of it. MR. a : But if it says WAB on the call out list, didn't you just say? So, if the people that got Reyes at 8:00 in the morning, produced him to R&D, or whomever that he goes to when it says WAB, wouldn't the assumption be that he’s not actually returning? MR. a: Yes. MR. a: Was that the case? EFTA00113413

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ha: If it says WAB, he’s definitely not coming back. MR. a : And that should be known? Definitely not coming back. So, if someone says, WAB, if it said WAB, but we believed he was going to court, and there’s always the possibility that he could return. Is that an argument to be had? If it says WAB. MR. i: I mean, once in a blue, yes. Some of them do come back. Either one thing or another, maybe they was very disrespectful to the Marshal, or maybe the court said never mind. Sometimes, it does happen. MR. ae : But that’s, like, is that more of, like, a one in a thousand type chance? MR. Ha: I guess. MR. ae : Yeah. So, it’s -- MR. a: I'm not too -. MR. Ee : -- extremely unlikely, if it says WAB, that he’s coming back. Correct? MR. a: Yeah. But it does happen. Some people, you let go, I thought you was leaving. Oh, something happened. MR. a : Okay. Now, I’ve heard that something happens if it has to do with, EFTA00113414

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 like, a transport, if something was cancelled. MR. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : But if by, for instance, he leaves at 8:00, he’s WAB, by 2:00 p.m., if he’s not back, that means, certainly, he got off on the transport. Does that mean, basically, by 2:00 p.m., if somebody that’s WAB is not back, they’re certainly not returning? MR. i: Yes. MR. a : Okay. And in this case, if someone is WAB, would control have any - or internal - have anything to do with, at the 4:00 p.m. count, contacting SHU, to make sure that they’re aware that that WAB person, in fact, isn't coming back? MR. ae : No? Okay. Okay. Do you know about any other -. I know we went over these counts that, you know, we said we believe are incorrect because the numbers weren’t right, that the count slips. Are you aware of any other count slips that were incorrect around this time period? MR. a: Not to my knowledge. MR. a: No? Are you aware of EFTA00113415

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 rounds not being conducted and being falsified prior to August 10th, 2019? MR. a: Not to my knowledge. MR. a : Had you heard that the rounds were not being conducted in the SHU on August 9th and 10th of 2019? MR. Ha: Not to my knowledge. MR. a : Even after the fact, you hadn’t heard that, in the news and all that? MR. Ha: The news was saying a lot of bad things. MR. a : And what about when you said you go get beers with your buddies, even hear it, don’t you? Didn't you guys talk about the fact that the rounds and the counts weren’t conducted in the SHU? MR. Ha: Whenever I get stuck to work Nine South, those cameras might not see what the inmates do, but I know they definitely see what I do. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: Oh, my fault. I apologize. The cameras definitely don’t see what the inmates do. But they sure see everything I do. So, when I'm up there, I try to stay on point, EFTA00113416

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LIMITED w ~] ive) OFFICIAL USE 102 because I need my job. MR. a : Sure. So, point being, though, do you know if people were falsifying rounds? MR. Ha: Not to my knowledge. MR. a : No? Okay. Are you aware - speaking of cameras - if the MCC SHU cameras were working on August 93th and 10th of 2019? MR. i: I believe they was working. MR. a : You believe they were working? MR. a: I believe all the cameras were working back then. MR. QM: «411 right. And then, had you heard that they weren’t working? MR. Ha: Through the media. When they was talking about the cameras didn't work. MR. a : And what is your understanding of -? Do you believe that they were working, and if we’re not able to get recordings, do you believe that someone deleted those recordings? MR. Ha: No. I don't think anybody that bold. EFTA00113417

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 MR. RR: No. 2 MR. a : Have you heard anything about deletion of cameras, or people knocking ] ies) 4 cameras offline, or -- No. 6 MR. a : -- them not record wi oe co a3 is) 1 MR. QJ: «9 Who would have ive) oO co 22 MR. ia: I'm not really sure, sir. 23 MR. a : Okay. Do you know if 24 Epstein was in his assigned c oO 11 on August 25 10th, 2019? EFTA00113418

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LIMITED ies) w oO co wo i=) ive) w oO co oO OFFICIAL USE 104 MR. i: I believe so. But I don’t work Nine South, so I can't tell you. Had you heard anything about him not being in his assigned cell? MR. QR: No. MR. a : No. Do you know if cell searches were being conducted in the SHU in July and August of 2019? They should have been. day, we have to do -. If you work in any post, Nine South to any housing units, you’re supposed to conduct five shakedowns per shift. MR. a : Is that five shakedowns, during the day and night watch? MR. Ee : But not -- MR. QE: Day watch. Evening watch. But not morning watch, five during the day, MR. a: Yeah. Not morning watch. And do you know if they were being conducted in the SHU? you’re supposed to do and five during the night? EFTA00113419

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LIMITED ies) co OFFICIAL USE 105 MR. i: To my knowledge -- MR. a : Yeah. But you don’t know MR. ia: -- I believe (Indiscernible ng about them not being conducted, though? y. When the SHU, were they conducted? knowledge of Epstein placing a telephone call in the SHU on August 3th, 2019? MR. a: I'm not sure about that. MR. a : Had you heard that one? MR. Ee : No. What do you know MR. ia: I don’t know nothing about MR. a : What do you know about sting with taking Epstein’s life? EFTA00113420

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. Ha: I don't know nothing about that. MR. a : Did Epstein take his own MR. Ha: I believe so. MR. a : And did Epstein act alone in taking his own life? MR. a: I believe so. MR. a : Did you have any involvement with Epstein’s death? MR. Ha: No, sir. MR. a : What would have prevented Epstein’s death? MR. QM: I'm really not too sure. Once an inmate or a person has their mind made up, they don’t tell you when they’re going to do it. They just do it. This individual, I don't know. I know that he was facing a serious crime. I don't know if he wanted to do that on his own, or he was protecting somebody. I don't know. But to try to prevent, I think we kind of tried everything that we wanted, but he would have probably have succeeded somehow. MR. a : Okay. What actions should have been taken to prevent his death? EFTA00113421

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 107 MR. i: I think they should have kept him in suicide watch, and had somebody watch him at all times. But I mean -- MR. a : What about -- MR. a : -- what about ensuring that he had his cell mate? MR. a: Oh, that, too. MR. a : What about ensuring that rounds and counts were being conducted? MR. a: Yeah. On G-tier, G-tier is pretty spacious. But if he wanted, you know, to hurt himself, he could have did it there, too. MR. ae : But does -- MR. ia: He could have did it on Ten ‘s) 5 -- yeah. But they’re more closely monitored than the SHU. Correct? EFTA00113422

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Yes. MR. a : Okay. What are some of the systematic problems inside the MCC - and specifically, the SHU - that allowed for Epstein to die? MR. a: Lack of staff. MR. es : Lack of staff. Is it all MR. i: Lack of staff. MR. a : -- okay. MR. Ha: Yeah. And how could I -? Right now, we have a problem with lack of staff. The staff that they are hiring right now is fall on the money. This job is not the first job that they apply for. It’s just the first job that called. So, with that knowledge, everybody needs a job. You need to pay your bills, right? You need to pay food. You know, you need to take care of your family, your wife, your kids, your husband, et cetera. So, when this job calls, they go. When you hear about the feds, you’d be, like, wow, the feds called me for an interview. This is a top-paying job. Everybody believes it. It’s not the top of the food chain. Especially not now. In New York, EFTA00113423

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the rent is going up. Everything is going up. So, this job is really just another job. It’s not a career anymore. It’s a job. You pay -. It’s a job. So, a lot of the men and women, they come, they see the headaches that we go through. And they look at their paycheck, and then, they look at the headaches that they go through at home. Because when you get your mandated every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, at first, your wife or your husband believes it’s good. The money is coming in. But after a couple of months, your wife or your husband will start believing that you are cheating. Because, like, this, you know, we’re law enforcement. All law enforcement cheat, right? What people believe. So, a lot of individuals that I talk to, they said they’re not losing their wife, so they quit. Or they moved on. Found another job for the headache. So, we always going to lose staff because the headache don’t outweigh the reward. MR. MJ: Juice isn’t worth the squeeze? MR. Ha: Yeah. And if they want to fix EFTA00113424

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) the place, they’re going to have to (Indiscernible *01:29:23) the money a little bit, maybe we get better quality. MR. a : ave things improved since August of 2019? wR. RR: No. MR. a : You don’t think they MR. a : That’s a shame to hear. Well, speaking of, so that we can lock down this | thing, just to leave, this is - I was just explaining it to you - but this is actually -. So, here, for instance, is the actual report. It’s from | ti‘éS He was the OIC SHU, the SHU OIC at the time. And it says that the incident occurred on 8/9/2019, at 1:40 p.m. “On August 9th, 2019, at approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS a. while assigned as the Special Housing Unit officer, proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting room, as I walked towards the door, I observed, through the visiting room door, inmate | attempting to garb an unknown item from his visitor. Once I made fF reach EFTA00113425

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to grab the item, I called the door and called for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the visiting room, I gave inmate | a direct ” order to walk -”. Gave him an out of -. “To walk out of the visiting room, to conduct a visual search. Inmate FY compiled,” Oh, “Complied, and a visual search was conducted. The Operations Lieutenant was contacted, and inmate FY was removed from the unit.” So, with this knowledge, when should have he been keyed out of the SHU? MR. a: He should have been - right now, since he’s in SHU - they probably believed that he was coming back to SHU. Because where is they going to put him at? You know -- MR. Ee : Yeah. MR. Ha: -- it says, Seven North. So, basically, he’s going to go to SHU soon. So, they probably took him downstairs. It says (Indiscernible *01:31:18). It says, the unit says Seven North, and you said he was -- MR. a : Yeah. MR. Ha: -- Nine South visitation room. Oh, okay, okay. Now, I see it. Where is that? Yeah. So, Nine South probably means that he EFTA00113426

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 keeps coming back to SHU. Because that’s where 2 you place all our inmates that has an incident Ww Kh uy ue] Oo K ct 4 MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. So, like this, he’s coming back wi aw 6 to Nine South, (Indiscernib foe) n o o ct =a Bb if } 5 3 wu rt i) ra + w bh wn ue] 3 wo i=) 2 should have been -? WwW Fs) K i) i] 5 is the time that he should have actually been, 16 then, placed - keyed out of SHU? ie] id fal fw 9 MR. aa: Unless they was putting him on 22 cell from ZA. 24 MR. a : So, this is when he was 25 . So, here. So, I mean -. EFTA00113427

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 113 MR. a: So, if you just look at this (Indiscernible *01:32:12). He was already in the SHU. MR. a: Yeah. He was already in the MR. a : And so, this one, we've ghlight that. But so, this one, IM FY on dry cell, with staff watch and R&D. 3:15 p.m. That’s when it D happened. MR. a : So, at 3:15 p.m. then, I'm assuming, not 1:4 but at 3:15 p.m., Ve that’s when he should have been keyed out of the SHU, and keyed into R&D? MR. FE: ve MR. ae : All right. And that goes back to, | would have been the person in | ts) control? MR. QJ: 411 right. would it -- MR. ia: But if they believed -- MR. a : -- if he’s going from MR. QM: 9 -- but if they believed that he EFTA00113428

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was going back to SHU, yes. They could have 2 just left him in SHU. Because they believed 3 was coming back. 4 MR. QJ: ell, that’s a w MR. QR: 9 Yeah. 6 MR. a : When he goes down to ~] medical. If he’s at medical -- 8 MR. a: Oh, we don’t come out wo = a 10 MR. Ha: -- from medical. 11 MR. Ee : -- what’s that? -- and then, from -- 114 he 2 MR. a: Medical is just -. Medical is 3 just a, it was, like, okay, I call you up to 4 come pick up an inmate, from my housing unit, 15 you take him down to medical. I'm not going to 16 go on the computer and take him off my unit. 17 MR. ae : Yeah. So, what 8 asking, though, is, if he went -. In this 9 instance, if he did that, would they first take 20 him to medical, and then place him on dry cell 21 in the R&D? 22 MR. Ha: No. The PA will probably come 23 up to talk to him, but otherwise, they wouldn’t 24 take him down to medical. 25 MR. QJ: Okay. And so, would this EFTA00113429

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) notification been made on the radio for control ) p.m. fF was being placed from ZA to R&D? MR. QR: No. MR. a : So, control may not have even known to key him out. Correct? MR. a: Yes. MR. a : So, it doesn't even mean that, necessarily, | would have contacted wi to even know at 3:1 and told. Whose responsibility would it ve been to key him out, at that point? If a lieutenant -- MR. J: Now, if -- MR. ae : -- ordered this? MR. a: -- if, if a lieutenant ordered this, Nine South should have called control and said, hey, I got an inmate taken off my count. Because -- MR. QM: 9 -- they should know before anybody else know. MR. QJ: «So, even if the OIC told - or the SHU - told the Ops Lieutenant, and the Ops Lieutenant was aware, the SHU should have still contacted control and told them? EFTA00113430

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 ] Lieutenants? Ww is) c an o. =] ct on oO ct Zz o ue) a 5 MR It should be the SHU? 6 MR 7 MR. a : And specifically, should 8 it have been, if fe knows that he’s 9 t ioe) 7 0 c 7] o : =] BP ct officer - yeah. He’s called control 16 done that? t co Fs) t ie) Fa H count. 22 initialing and dati 23 MR. a: How should 24 notification have been made? 25 MR. a: During the cour mind just on should a EFTA00113431

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 sometimes we have (Indiscernible *01:34:55), and then, with the phone calls, you basically (Indiscernible *01:34:55). You have to have an incident report (Indiscernible *01:35:02). MR. a: What’s (Indiscernible 5:15)? How long do they normally have to *Ol: ios) make that phone call? They’1ll know, hey, listen, (Indiscernible *01:35:21)? What do you know about (Indiscernible *01:35:26)? MR. QM: 9 (Indiscernible *01:35:29). MR. QJ: «9 (indiscernible *01:35:31) at 3:15 MR. QB: Yeah. MR. QJ: 9wWhen -. MR. a : Well, it happened at 1:40 MR. Ee : And placed on dry cell -- MR. QJ: «But that -- MR. a : -- (Indiscernible MR. a: -- according to that memo, it looks like that he was placed in dry cell at 3:15. Before what time should that phone call EFTA00113432

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have came? MR. Ha: It should have came, you know, an hour after -. Depending on how Nine South is moving. Because Nine South is - Nine South is lacking staff. We won't have a (Indiscernible *01:35:58) of the full staff. So, that means, if they’re doing visitations, or if they’re doing showers, if they’re doing medical, if they’re doing psychology, they’re doing all library cards and all this other crap, they are moving. Yeah. MR. a: But here’s the thing, you said, the fourth count -- MR. QR: 9 yeah. MR. a: -- there’s a 4:00 p.m. count coming up, should they have made notification for the phone? MR. a: Yes. And should have made it way before, before they forgot, because you can't - the longer you take, the more you could forget. MR. a : Should they have made notification before the 10:00 p.m. count? MR. a: Yes. They should have made notification a half an hour to - oh, no, a half EFTA00113433

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 an hour to ten minutes after the inmate (Indiscernible *01:36 MR. a : Just not immediately, 35). MR. Ha: Yeah. Because the longer it takes, the busier you are, you forget something. Maybe you forget your keys. You know? MR. a : We were informed that, once it’s happening, the movement, that notification should be made. Moving inmate from SHU to R&D dry cell. MR. QB: Yeah. MR. ae : Isn't that correct? MR. Ee : It’s only, it shouldn’t occur. It should happen immediately. Definitely not more than 15 to 30 minutes later. Correct? = wa i.e) kay. MR. a: Now, if the SHU staff at 4:0 p.m. did the count, as they were supposed to, would they have realized the fact that there was an inmate missing? 119 0 EFTA00113434

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 2 MR. QJ: 9=olf they did the 10:00 p.m. ies) count, as they were supposed to, would they 4 have realized there was an inmate missing? oO w od od a a K o ri) Now, I don't know if -. I 7 have something separate, all together. 8 MR. a : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 9 Please. I'm just searching. 10 MR. a: As being control, right? Is 11 there video monitors for different units? 2 MR. QR: ve is) 3 MR. a: Was there a monitor for the 4 SHU? 15 MR a: Yes. But there’s a small -. 16 There’s a camera that’s way up on the wall. 7 MR. a: Is it, like, a corner -- 8 MR. aa: Yes. 9 MR. a : -- angle? 20 MR. QM: It’s a corner angle. 21 MR. QJ: 9 bet me look, if I had, like, 22 a picture of it. I don’t have a picture of 23 that. But -. 24 MR. a : I may. But you can start 25 asking your questions about it, though. EFTA00113435

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: When they do, when you’re in control, right, and they’re calling you, like, different units are calling you with the count numbers, do you look up to see if they’re actually doing the counts? MR. a: Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. Because we have work that we have to do, too. Now, the person that’s taking the phone calls, that’s what you’re doing. You’re taking the phone calls, verifying the count with the El. The person that’s sitting next to you, that’s in control with me, he or she may be doing their paperwork, because there’s paperwork to be done. We have to count keys. We have to count radios. We have to do all the equipment inside the control center. So, if I'm doing count, that person may be doing the equipment checks. And/or popping doors. MR. a: Okay. Do you recall looking up at the camera that night, to see if they were actually doing the counts that night? MR. a: I can't really recall because I was helping out with the count, too. Different units. MR. a: Do you recall, at any point, 121 EFTA00113436

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 looking up - not just for that night, different nights - looking up and looking at the camera, and looking at the C.0O.s and realizing that, hey, listen, they’re giving me the count, but I know they haven't done the count? MR. a: No. I'm not -. I mean, we relied on trust. I mean, this is a part of your job function. Your major job function. So, we believe that you should have had to have done the count, because Nine South has two officers. So, they count themselves. Any unit that has two officers, they count themselves. Everybody else, they’re going to need backup because there’s only one officer per unit. MR. a: Have you ever heard of counts and rounds not being done at the MCC? MR. Ha: I mean, you know, you heard the rumors from the news. MR. a: From the what? MR. Ha: From the news. MR. a: Other than this incident, have you heard any rumors of any C.O.s saying, hey, listen, I'm too tired, I'm not doing the counts, or I'm not doing the rounds, or one of them might be, they’re just not doing the EFTA00113437

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 ~] wo 10 11 counts or the rounds? MR. Ha: No, no, no. I haven't heard MR. a : Have you ever heard of C.0O.s pre-filling the rounds and the count sheets? m Meaning, they come on shift, they fill out the forms, keep it, and sign at the, you know, initial it, fill it all out, and just pass it on. MR. a: When the time comes. MR. QR: No. MR. a: You never heard of any C.O.s doing anything like that? MR. i: No. Because I definitely don’t do that. MR. a: That’s it for now. MR. a : Anything we’re missing? MR. a: You asked me everything -- MR. QJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. MR. a: -- and the kitchen sink. MR. ae : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. It’s all -. Can we just ask you, please, if you can remember anything more about the 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. count, EFTA00113438

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specifically if there were any conversations that were had with either the Ops Lieutenant, or the SHU, about, like, ghost counting, or about when you wrote in - if it was, in fact, you, who wrote on those two count slips - or anything at all, that you might help, for us, to clear up. What was done -- MR. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : -- and when it was done. MR. Ha: Okay. MR. a : Because again, in our mind, the count slips are inaccurate. You were going based upon what was said on the, you know, on the El. And their count slips were matching that El. So, for me, I'm still very confused on when that 9S+1 on the R&D, and when the plus one on the ZA count slips were actually done. I know you’re saying that you believe that they were done at the time of the 10:00 p.m. count, but being that it doesn't look like it was appeared to have been caught until after the - or during - the 12:00 a.m. count, I'm just still not convinced of that. so -- MR. QB: 9 Right. EFTA00113439

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 w ~] MR. Ee : -- because to you, you said you believe it was done at the 10:00 p.m., you don’t know for a fact. Correct? MR. a: No, not for a fact. MR. a : You just, being that it shows on the 10:00 p.m., but you don’t think that you would have gone back to an earlier count -- MR. a : -- is what you’re saying? Even if someone was, it was caught during a count that you still had the paperwork to? MR. FR: No. MR. ae : Do you know what I'm saying? Like, even if there’s one count later, which there’s only two hours after that count, you don’t think you would have, then, gone back to that count that you did just two hours later, and put that plus one on there? MR. BR: No. MR. QJ: N0? All right. So, you’re - to you, though - you’re pretty positive you would have done it during the 10:00 p.m.? MR. QB: Yes. EFTA00113440

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : And do you believe that, then, would be why the Ops Lieutenant would have caught the fact that there is one person assigned to the SHU, who was actually in R&D, and would have corrected the E1? MR. a: Yes. I believe, I believe that if there was a little bit more communication, we probably would have caught it a lot faster. MR. a : Well, it sounds like you knew it. I'm just - now, I'm just super confused if that’s when it happened, why the El, you have a count slip that doesn't say on the El. MR. QM: Like I said, if, you know, if I'm correct, I should have changed it. MR. Ee : You should have changed the E1? MR. a: I should have just changed it, regardless. MR. QM: Okay. MR. a: Without doing the ghosting. MR. ae : Okay. MR. Ha: I should have changed it. That’s why I said I think I dropped the ball on that one. EFTA00113441

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 MR. QJ: «411 right. believe it was a ghost count? MR. aa: Yeah. 4 MR. ae : And you believe, though, ies) 5 in order for it to be a ghost count, an Ops 6 Lieutenant would have said it’s okay to ghost count? Yea its] foe) OD om og r =] jon u a @ 5 a a) ie) ue) n 10 Lieutenant that was on there was - 11 a. and she didn't make the change until the 2 12:00 p.m. count. Ww rs] K 0) wu ys 4 MR. ae : And do you see where that F wi Q (e) 0 a 5 rr fu Qu. A is te] Mm-hmm. Yeah. 7 MR. ae : So, in thinking about t oO a 8 that, is there anything you think that maybe 9 you’re a little bit inaccurate on? 20 MR. MM: I mean, if, you know, like, I'm 21 just wish that I, like, caught it and changed 22 it a lot earlier. You know, I should have just 23 changed it. 24 MR. a : Yeah. And again, my main 25 thing is, I think you’re beating yourself up on EFTA00113442

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that because I don’t think that there was anything for you to catch. You didn't know. But I could be mistaken on that, and that’s where I'm just really hoping that, if you can think about it, and you can kind of put together, oh, yeah, that is what happened, or, okay, that’s what - that’s how it transpired, that’s how it went down. If you could just contact us, myself or a. and just let us know. That would be greatly -. We would so appreciate it because when we do these things, we got to be accurate. The highest levels of the government are going to get - or look at these things. And being that these counts are off, that’s kind of a big thing. MR. a: Yeah. MR. ee: Especially with regard to, you know, with the night before, and the morning of, Epstein -- MR. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : -- being found. And so, we just want to make sure that we’re being as accurate as possible. I/’11 give you a card so that, if you can think of anything, you can certainly contact me. And we can modify EFTA00113443

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 whatever it is that needs to be modified, or do 2 a supplemental. All right. Any questions for No? All right. Well, we w a for your time. oO can't thank you enough 7 MR. a: Mm-hmm. Thank you, too. co Fs) All right. wo id P =] A. b a Oo is! ® I helped a little i=) bit. 2 MR. a : Yes. Thank y 3 Appreciate you. God Bless you. I'm going to 4 turn the recorder off now. It is certainly This is EM, senior Agent with DOJ/OIG, and I'm turning off c uw > b wo ue] 3 c oO i?) Me] oO Q b wu = the recorder. co oO EFTA00113444

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 8 Interview of [a 10 : 11 Brcaren (ose CCT 12 Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113445