10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00111908

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ies) OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL co EFTA00111909

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ios) 2 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 3 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 York Field Office, and these are my 5 credentials. 6 MS. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a : This interview with the 8 Federal Bureau of Prisons psychologist, Dr. | a. Did I get that right? MS. EJ: 9 ves. 11 MR. EJ: Is b ~] wo i=) oO ing conducted as part of 2 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 3 of the Inspector General investigation. 4 Today’s date is October 27, 2021. And the time 15 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conducted 16 at the OIG; New York Field Office; located on 7 the 29th floor of One Battery Park Plaza, New 8 York, New York. Also present is: 9 MR. a : DOJ/OIG Senior Special 20 agent QR] NMJ» 00 these are my 21 credentials. Oops. Here you go. 22 MR. QJ: 9 This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Special Agent | tti‘w@wd 24 Could everyone please identify themselves for 25 the record, and spell your last name? To EFTA00111910

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wo I Ep voluntarily provide Will the y DOJ /C MS. a ree to Ye un And your last name. Thank ¥ Can the record? that. you. Je questions. voluntary interview with EFTA00111911

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Thank you. I'm going to provide you with the OIG form III-226/2. It states the following, “United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General. Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provided Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceeding, or both.” The waiver states, “I understand the warnings and assurance stated above, and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has EFTA00111912

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LIMITED ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE on been u “Please review it. And 7) ed against me. if you agree, can you please sign where it says, “Employee Signature”? Also, print your name right below that. MR. a : Please MS. J: 9 vr-hon. MR. a : Thank you. Thank you. I am signing on the signature of the Office of Inspector General, Special Agent. Okay. And I will -- the witness, -- sign as and place the date, and time, and place on there. On the form. Thank you. Before starting I would like to place you under a. can you please Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? Please let me know if you did not understand any questions, EFTA00111913

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL and t £ oO Ph oO with enfo on i bein Augu inve stat USE I will try to repeat it, or try to rephrase or you. What is your current home address? And what is your dé 7] rt oO you showed us your MR. the U.S. reement offi her picture her Thank What is t, and signature. you. current cell number? Do you recall g interviewed by the FBI and the a) inmate Jeffr st 2019, regarding It’s ao. have here is called 302. their report of stigation. It’s a summary of y s that you made in the interview with EFTA00111914

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ao 1 them. I'm going to go -. I'm going to read it 2 out to you. Please let me know if there is any 3 discrepancies, or you feel that anything is 4 inaccurate, and we will correct it. 6 MR. ae: On the record. Anything else 7 before we start? 8 MR. QR: | Nope. 10 date of birth: was interviewed at 1 11 Saint Andrews Plaza, New York, New York, 10007. 2 U.S. Attorney’s Office. Southern District of 3 New York Present at the interview was the 4 | Office of Inspector General; Special Agent 15 ee: Assistant Attorney 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:54), 7 and FBI Special Agent Ee . 8 After being advised of the identity of the 9 interviewing agents, and the nature of the 20 interview, Dr. JJ provided the following the chief 21 statement. Dr. la i i) 22 psychologist at the Metropolitan Correctional 23 Center (MCC). Her background includes a 24 bachelor’s degree in criminology, a master’s in 25 mental health counseling, a master’s in EFTA00111915

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 clinical counseling, and a doctorate.” What is the doctorate in? MS. a : Oh. The second master’s is in clinical psychology, not counseling psychology. And the doctorate is in clinical psychology. MR. a: Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. “Dr. JJ was the staff psychologist at East Jersey State Prison for two years. +406:05:33}-And she completed a one- year post-doctoral fellowship and internship working at an in and out - in/outpatient mental health treatment center. And she did that externship at Federal Detention Center in Miami, working with the battered woman’s program.” Is that accurate? Go ahead. MS. a : Okay. My post-doc was at a private forensic practice, forensic psychology practice. The Institution for Behavioral Sciences in the Law. That was my post-doctoral internship. My internship was at the University of Miami. Jackson Memorial Medical Center. That’s where I did inpatient and outpatient rotations, with a minor in forensics. And my externship, when I was in EFTA00111916

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE doctoral program, Center in Miami. MDC Brookly was at the Federal Detentio “Dr. | worked as a sta hologist at the Metropolitan Detention from 2003 to Well, now, more. Probably More than 13, probably. So, that is still your role Yes. And now t 10 n EFTA00111917

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MS. a: -- I'm no longer the chief 2 psychologist there. But up until a day ago, 3 yes 4 MR. ae: Okay And so, what is the 5 new role with the -? 6 aa: Well, I am awaiting a position, likely in central office. 8 MR. a: Okay. And what, do you know 9 what your role would be? What your title would 10 be a A mental health treatment 2 coordinator. But it’s going through the 3 paperwork right now. So, it hasn’t, you know, 4 I haven’t received official notification -- t fea) 77) i} i} w if] Oo Hh oo a] = rnd IB H ket 0 G ion 0) p on — 0) rt io] its) ct i ke 9 in New York? 21 MR. ae : Okay. Great. 22 MS. a: But I am doing my TDY work 23 right now, at Fort Dix. In New Jersey. 4 MR. a : Okay. So, I am just seeing a lot of ho No w n EFTA00111918

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 patients over there now. MR. a: Anything else on that? MR. a : Hmm-mm. MR. a : “Dr. | oversees three forensic psychologists.” This is talking about the time period when you were interviewed. MS. a : Yes. MR. a : I guess, before we do, I don’t think it said. When did you first start working with the BOP? When was your enter on duty? Ms. QJ: =n 2003. MR. a : Okay. Great. Thank you. MR. a: “Dr. YY oversees three forensic psychologists, one staff psychologist, a drug abuse coordinator, and a drug treatment specialist. Her duties include ensuring all patients are seen, and the appropriate documentation is completed. She consults on individual cases, as needed. She ensures the forensic reports are out on time. She reviews all the reports she signs off on. At this time, Dr. | is seeing patients, is seeing more patients than she normally does, due to staffing. Her typical hours are 7:00 a.m. to EFTA00111919

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3:30 p.m. Monday to Friday.” MS. a: Okay. MR. a: “Dr. | provided information on the intake process as it relates to psychological services at MCC. All inmates complete the psychological services intake questionnaire” - that’s PSIQ - “themselves. It asks for the inmates mental health history, as well as any symptoms they are feeling at the time. Based off the PSIQ, inmates are rated a care code reading.” MS. a: Okay. First, we interview them. What we do is, we review the PSIQs once they are filled out. If significant items are marked, we will interview the inmate. After we complete the intake screening, we will classify them with a care code. And that will determine how frequently the inmate will be seen. MR. a: Okay. I think it goes into the codes itself. MS. aa: Oh, okay. All right. MR. a : “Code one means there are no concerns about the inmate’s mental health status. They have no needs and will not be followed up with, unless requested to, by EFTA00111920

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 either the inmate themselves, or staff.” MS. a: Okay. MR. a: “Code two means there is some history of mental health issues, but the inmate has them under control. Psychological services will follow up with these individuals monthly.” MS. a: Yes. MR. QJ: 9 “code three are more severe cases, and they are seen every week by psychological services, to ensure the inmate is stable. If the inmate isn’t stable in general population, they will be moved to observation. If they continue to deteriorate, they will go to the hospital.” MS. a : We will try to send them to a BOP medical center. Or we will try to stabilize them in the facility. We have a psychiatrist who is actually, he is a central office psychiatrist, but he was actually located at MCC New York. So, if they started to decompensate the interview, and they were that acute, we would have the psychiatrist see them, and potentially medicate them, and try to stabilize them at our facility. If we cannot do so, then we will try to do an emergency, EFTA00111921

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 what is called a 770, and have them designated to one of our medical centers for stabilization. We don’t have a contract with the hospital here in New York. MR. a: I don’t know if you - what’s - what decompensating means? MS. a: Oh, that means that their symptoms become more acute, their mental health functioning is deteriorating to the point where they display evidence of either severe mood symptoms, like acute mania, or psychosis, where they are actively hallucinating, or have delusions. Or maybe they just stopped taking care of ADLs, as well. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: And that would cause harm to them. Because of their illness. MR. a: Thank you. MS. a: Okay. MR. a: Do you have any questions on that? Okay. “Code four inmates are seen every day by psychological services, and are under constant psychological observation.” MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a: “Dr. | pointed out that EFTA00111922

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a code one can be on suicide watch. Often times, those cases involve manipulation techniques used by inmates to get what they want from staff. For example, if an inmate is not getting along with the guard, or they want a new cellmate, they will claim to be suicidal to get out of their housing area. If an inmate does this two or three times, they will be bumped to a code two, so that a psychologist will meet with them monthly. Suicide watch means an inmate is eminently suicidal. If an inmate is placed on suicide watch, they are under constant watch by staff. They have a special mattress, blanket, and smock to wear. And their cell lights are on 24/7.” MS. a: Correct. MR. a : “Suicide observation is a lower classification.” MS. a: Psychological observation. MR. a: Correction. “Psychological observation is a lower classification. It is not at all Bureau of Prisons facilities. Everything is the same with suicide observation inmates - psychological observation inmates, except that they are allowed to have their 16 EFTA00111923

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 clothing, and some materials, such as books. Suicide watch can be detrimental if a person is left on it for too long. So, observation is used to see how an inmate is doing before releasing them back to general population.” MS. a: Correct. So, psychological observation, they are observed constantly, with regard to what they have, they can obtain. They can have those things that you listed. But we have to determine, and sometimes it might be one thing at a time. Like, we might give them their underwear, and see how they do with that. And then, we will, you know, give them a book. But it’s not like once you get stopped down, you get all of those items. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: Okay. It’s determined by a psychologist, and it is notated on their logbook, what they can and cannot have. MR. a: Okay. “Any psychologist at jail can take an inmate off suicide watch, but they do consult with Dr. | on occasion. Many times, the executive staff at the jail meet, and inmate psychological status and services are discussed.” EFTA00111924

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: Yes. MR. QJ: «scan you explain to us a little bit more about the meeting? What exactly is discussed? MS. QJ: yes. So, we have, like, Mondays, we have an opening meeting, and Fridays, we have a close out meeting. And Tuesdays, the days may have changed from then to now. I think it used to be Thursdays, used to be a SHU meeting. And so, certain members, all the members of the executive staff are there. And then, certain department heads attend these meetings. And during the meetings, they will ask me, you know, is there anything for psychology. And then, I will discuss the inmates that are on suicide watch. And what my plans is for those inmates. Or if we were discussing the Special Housing Unit, I’1l discuss inmates that I feel need to be observed closely. Should have cellmates. Or may suffer from mental health problems that I feel we just need to keep an eye on, or make sure they are in more visible, highly visible cells. Any mental health concern I have in the SHU, I would EFTA00111925

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 mention at the SHU meeting. MR. a: Okay. Anything else? MR. a : Yeah. I mean, do they have input into psychology? Like, does the executive staff, do they get to provide recommendations, or ask, you know, can this person be taken off, or this person taken off, or this person taken on, or is it -? MS. a: Well, we make the decisions as far as, we’re the only ones that make the decisions whether someone goes on watch, or off watch. MR. QJ: Right. MS. QJ: 9 vThey may, you know, not agree or whatever, but that’s our decision because that is our profession. MR. QJ: Right. MS. a: But with regard to the logistics in the prison, and how, where the inmates are housed, and things like that. We will make suggestions to executive staff. MR. ae : Okay. MS. a: A lot of times - and most of the time - they do listen to psychology. There may be times they disagree for maybe EFTA00111926

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correctional reasons that, you know, they may have their own ways of viewing where they housed someone. Maybe therey will be an inmate up there, or too many that they are separated from, or maybe they are a gang member. I mean, there may be other reasons why they can't follow our recommendations. And so, there might be exceptions to that rule. So, now, pretty much what we do is, if, like, let’s say we have to house somebody alone in SHU. We have to - we put whether we recommend or not recommend. Now, we do that. And I never recommend an inmate be single celled. Ever. So, if they decide, that’s on them. And usually, it’s because an inmate may be too violent, or may be +tAdiseernible #06:15:55}+sept out from all other inmates in the facility because they are so, in all these gangs, and they are cooperating. And there is just too many bloods, let’s say, and there are blood, and they may have to be by themselves, or they may have assaulted other inmates, or officers, and they just can't be celled with somebody. For whatever reason. Or the U.S. Attorney's Office has said this EFTA00111927

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 person needs to be by themselves. We’re afraid for their life, at that facility. So, I'm never going to recommend somebody be by themselves because it’s never a good idea. But there might be extenuating circumstances where someone needs to be housed alone, and in that case, you know, we would recommend an increase rounds, or, you know, keeping an eye on that inmate. MR. Ee : Now, as far as I understand, what you are talking about with—-is when they come off of psychological observation or suicide watch, but when they actually go in and come off of both suicide watch and psychological observation, do they get to provide an input into that, or is that solely a psychology issue? MS. a : Whether they come off? MR. a : Go in or come off. MS. a: No. Just a psychology. MR. a : Okay. So, they don’t have any input into that? MS. a: No. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: I mean, they may make some EFTA00111928

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LIMITED ios) w wo i=) nN ive) oO co wo OFFICIAL USE 22 statements, but if we don’t agree, -- us u Pp. MR. MS. a: -- those decisions are up t Oo a : Just a question, as a follow recomme hemselves, based on a threat or ndations on housing an inm , my understanding, based on that statement, is that means every inmate is housed with a by ecommended by psych them cellmate, unless specifically ology, that they be housed sel a: -- is always going to a : Recommend. EFTA00111929

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MS. a: A cellmate. But there might ive) Fs) Okay. 4 MS. a: Which preclude them from being housed with <= w nother inmate. a oO a So, any inmates that has a 7 history of possibly havinge suicide watch, or 8 any, or psychological observation, ps 9 recommends that they be - recommends that they 10 be housed with a cellmate. MR . ae : Now, psychology -- N a Wa i Oo al wu te 4 MR. Ee : -- always they be housed 5 with a cellmate. Co id w es Q cr 7 MR. a : It’s the custody may say they deme want them with a single cell. fee) ct a 7 rt wo a3 i?) is) ct p. rt No N 5 | p wy 5 a < Oo Ps = @ t 3 w 1) wu K m 23 held on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays. 24 Generally present at those meetings are Dr. 25 a. the warden, two associate wardens, the EFTA00111930

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 captain, supervisory attorney, duty officer, and the executive assistant. Department head meetings are held on Wednesdays. Dr. i. HI) (Phonetic Sp. *00:18:27)?” MS. QJ: 9 vm-hon. MR. a: “Completed the PSIQ for Jeffrey Epstein on July 8, 2019. Epstein did not mark anything on his PSIQ. And had it not been Epstein, he would have been sent to general population, and rated a care code one. Dr. | consulted with Dr. | i. about Epstein’s risk factors, aside from his psychological health, including high-profile case and sex offense charges.” Who is Dr. mm: MS. a: He was the suicide prevention coordinator in central office. Now, he has been moved up to a higher position, but he is in central office, and he called me right away, when Epstein came, because of his risk factors. We call those static risk factors. Those are risk factors for suicidality that can't be changed. So, in other words, if you come in and you are a sex offender, and you are high- profile, like Jeffrey Epstein was, that is EFTA00111931

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going to take place throughout his incarceration. It is not like he would just come in depressed; we could give him medication; he could get better. Those factors would always be there. So, you know, he was concerned. Also, when he came to the facility, that we should keep, you know, a close eye on him. And, you know, he was reviewing our notes and everything, from afar. So, he did call us when he was placed on watch and everything, and he oversaw. MR. a : Okay. MR. QJ: So, he has access to your notes? Does that go into some kind of a database? MS. a: Yes. The psychology data system. MR. Ee : Okay. MS. a: I don’t know if he reviewed the notes, but he called -. I'm trying to remember. I remember him calling me and just being in touch with me. You know, is everything okay? And, you know, making sure we assessed certain things. EFTA00111932

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 MR. Ee : Okay. So, all throughout Epstein’s stay, he was kind of reviewing your fen) ies) notes, and -- 4 MS. QJ: 9 uh-huh. w ig | i} iam b if] ta ct w ct c ta aa: Or calling me and checking oO in. And who would co Fs) 9 to that database, in those notes? 10 MS. a: All the psychologi in the 11 department. Central office personnel would 2 have access to it. at 3 other institutions can access the notes 4 because, let’s say he was transferred to 15 another facility, and they wanted to see his oO notes from the BOP. They would have access. 7 MR. ae : Okay. And when you say 8 central office, you’re talking about just 9 psychology central office, or do you mean 20 everyone that is -? 21 MS. 22 MR 23 MS 24 MR 25 MS EFTA00111933

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 MR. Ee : -- personnel. 2 MS. a: -- I know. Yes. Okay. So, no one outside if ies) a Not that I know of. oO wi Fs] th Okay. J 7) Because I don’t work up 8 there. But I wouldn’t its] id BK oO wu “ 2 already might have missed it. 4 MR a: Did Dr. || make any recommendations to you? Regarding Mr. Epstein. t oO 77) No. Just to keep a close eye 7 on, when I put him on watch. He just called 8 and just, he asked me various questions on how 9 So, he 20 just wanted to make us aware that, you know, he high-profile. I obviously, we But, you know, also to keep an eye 23 on him, and to keep us alert to his risk ho No w bd * wu fon = oO 5 tH ue} a o hn 5 KR oO rt c 4K 5 oO ion EFTA00111934

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 from court that day, Dr. | ordered he be placed on watch status, to allow psychology to make a complete - to complete a thorough suicide risk assessment.” Is that correct? MS. QJ: 9=Right. MR. a: Okay. MR. es : And that was on -- MS. a: And that was precautionary. MR. a : -- okay. MS. a: Because of his risk factors. I wanted him assessed. So, I remember he was placed on watch, and he was waiting for me to come in and do his interview. And, you know, I came into the watch area, and he was, like, are you Dr. i: And he’s, like, get me out of here. You know? Because he didn’t endorse anything. He didn't say he was suicidal. He had just come from court, and he was just waiting to come off of watch because, you know, watch is very depriving, like we said, you can't have anything there. Like, not even clothes. It’s just -. You know, so, for him to be put in that situation. He was really unhappy about it. And then, you know, I explained, it was for his safety, and EFTA00111935

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ie) wo 1 precautionary, and I just wanted to make sure 2 he was, he would be celled appropriately, and 3 that he was okay. So, it wasn’t that he had 4 endorsed anything, or said he was suicidal. It 5 was strictly precautionary. 6 MR. a : And that was -- ] wo ct a No oO = WwW Fs) ' | for the record. Okay. 16 was angry he was placed on observation, but he 7 continued to report no history of -”, suicide- 8 aly? 9 MS. a: Suicidality. Yeah. Yeah. MMMM: §« Suicidality. “No substance 21 abuse. No major medical concerns. And no li but No Nh oO D K ct K B a) rom rh w Q rt oO K rt) ts ue] a rt @ BP to] = ou i) is] ie) h Bb ct i) . No ion) a) S =] io] 1] jon = rm ct a 0 a] “wo Epstein was kept in EFTA00111936

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 observation, pending a suitable housing placement, given his risk factors of being an alleged sex offender. High-profile, and having one living brother relative. She quoted Epstein as saying, ‘Being alive is fun.’ Dr. | believed it was a genuine statement.” Is that accurate? MS. QJ: =A what? MR. a: A genuine -- MR. a : Genuine. MR. a: -- genuine statement. MS. a: Yeah. MR. a : Okay. “Dr. | provided the interviewing agents with a copy of the suicide risk assessment, which was placed into this case as reference three. On July 10th, 2019, Dr. | met with Epstein in observation. Epstein was still in observation, due to housing concerns. He continued to be psychologically stable at that time. Epstein was aware, even if he got bail, he would be at MCC for several more weeks.” That statement, “Epstein was aware even if he got bail.” Was your understanding that he was going to get bail? EFTA00111937

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: If I recall, I remember he was hopeful. Now, I don’t have my notes in front of me, so I don’t want to swear to what was in each note -- MR. a: Yeah. MS. a: -- because when I don’t have them in front of me, but from my recollection, yes, he was hopeful that, you know, he would be able to get out of jail. MR. a: Okay. So, based on -- MS. a: At that time. MR. a: -- your conversations with him, he was expecting - hopeful - to get bail - MS. a : Yes. MR. a: -- from being -. Okay. “Epstein made several demands and voiced many complaints to Dr. a. which she passed onto executive staff.” What kind of demands? MS. a: I remember a lot of, like, even his laxative, like, he wanted Colace (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:50), and he didn't like the laxative he was getting. And, you know, he just made a lot of demands. I would have to refer to my notes, but it was just -- EFTA00111938

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Okay. MS. a: -- you know, individual, his individual needs. Things that he wanted. MR. a : What about -- MS. a: You know? MR. a: -- complaints? It mentions that he voiced many complaints, also. MS. a: Maybe that he was on watch. I mean, I remember he didn't want to be on there to begin with. Things about the jail, in and of itself, I guess he wanted, I remember him wanting to go to the Cadre unit (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:23), because at that time, we had Paul Manafort (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:25) there. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: And he wanted to be - he knew those people were in the prison - so, he wanted to go be placed on a Cadre unit, which are inmates that have already been sentenced, and are serving small amounts of time. MR. a: Okay. MS. a : At which we couldn’t put him in, because he was pre-trial. But he wanted to be with, like, other inmates he knew that were there, that were more high-profile. EFTA00111939

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE Lo ot) on that? YE MS. a: I remember him complaining m7 Anything e MR. QJ: We have all of your not and the notes, you know, from ps Would you want those for while we are or do you think t a: -- you know, I have a pretty if you are going EFTA00111940

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) Wo rf MR. QJ: -- 1 just -- MS. a: Yeah. MR. a : -- wanted to know if you would actually prefer them in front of you. So, while we are talking, you can reference them. Because if you can, we could easily get them for you. MS. a: Okay. I will see how the questions -- MR. QJ: 9 sure. MS. a: -- proceed. And if I am uncomfortable with one, I will let you know. Yeah. MR. ae : Absolutely. Ms. QJ: 9 okay. MR. ae: “Epstein’s cellmate for the Special Housing Unit was decided by the warden and the associate warden. Dr. | was not included on that decision. Her thought was decided upon cellmate, Tartaglione, had a -.” Sorry. I don't know if that wording is wrong. “Her thought was decided upon cellmate, ” Tartaglione, had a lot to lose -. MR. a : Just before we go on. So, you said that it was decided by the warden EFTA00111941

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LIMITED ies) w io ioe) its) No Ww OFFICIAL USE 35 and the associate warden. Do you know what the individuals? Like, | would be the associate warden was? I don’t know who, but I know associate wardens. I don’t 1g that period of time. And I'm trying to remember the other one. Was it K n K @ wo rs) ct ie) Oo — | if | | was I think it was a MR. a : Who was before ma: EFTA00111942

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] ie) 10 11 lo oO MS. a: Yeah. They -- MR. a : -- okay. MS. a: -- they make the housing decisions. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MS. aa: You know, and who they felt he should be placed with. MR. a : And then, let me just read that sentence for you -- MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. QJ: -- so that -. It says, “Her thought was the decided upon cellmate, Tartaglione, had a lot to lose given his history and charges, which made him a low-risk to Epstein.” MS. a: Right. I guess that was more of an opinion. MR. (J: 9 Mm-hon. MS. a: You know, because my thought was the reason;—they placed him with that inmate is, you know, he is pteeing—facing the death penalty or life. Tartaglione. For these alleged murders. And when you are pre-trial, and you are in that situation, you are on your best behavior, and not looking to hurt EFTA00111943

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ioe) co OFFICIAL USE somebody, and get yourself into more trouble. MR. MS. : So, a lo 9f times -- MR. MS. son? facing the you know what he a: I don't know what his situation is now. I know his atto know, fight, has been fighting for him for a long time. the death penalty. You know, to I thi MS. a: He was law EFTA00111944

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) lo o it was some drug related thing, and there was four bodies, I think, and I don’t know that much about his case. I have met with him ona couple of occasions. MR. QJ: Okay. MS. But, you know, he doesn't come off as being, you know, he’s not, like, a gang member, or violent, or trying to prove anything, per se. MR. a : So, his goal was to clean and to do what was right, so he could if) tay potentially beat his case? MS. a: That’s what most people do, MS. a: You know, it’ go to pens that they become that way, unless, not until they to you know, you are very young and antisocial, you will act out. MR. a: So, just to clarify, he wa pre-trial, or was he already facing a life in 0] prison? MS. a : Yeah, I think he was -- EFTA00111945

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lo \o You said life in prison, and MR. QE: death penalty? -- he was still pre-trial. They both were pre-trial. Okay. So, he was trying to 6 avoid the death penalty 7 MS. a : Yes. 8 MR. a: 9 prison? 10 MS. QJ: 9 Right. 11 all together. 2 MR. a : Got it 3 MR. 4 MR. 15 MS. 16 get off all together, bu 7 but -. 8 MR. a : Okay. -- and trying to get life in Or maybe just get off mind, he felt he could t that is unrelated, Thank you. “On July 9 llth, 2019, Epstein was taken off of 20 observation, and housed in the SHU. Dr. [x 21 met with Epstein in the attorney conference 22 rooms that day, because Epstein was there all 23 day. Both Epstein and his attorney were 24 mocking Dr. | for thinking Epstein was 25 suicidal. Epstein continued to make demands, EFTA00111946

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 such as wanting to wear a brown uniform to his attorney meetings. Dr. | continued to pass those concerns onto the SHU Lieutenant a. MS. a: I think so. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: Yeah. MR. a: “On July 16th, 2019, after Epstein’s bail hearing, he was called for,” or, “he called for Dr. | to come to attorney conference. Epstein didn't report any psychological concerns, but chastised her because his needs weren’t being met. Dr. MMMM felt Epstein thought of her as his personal assistant. Epstein requested a kosher diet, which she again passed on.” MR. ae : Wait. Before we go on. It says he chastised you because his needs weren’t being met. MS. a: Okay. Well, this is, he, you know, while he was on watch, and when I would talk to him, he would tell me all these different things that he wanted. Like I said, the special laxative. A certain diet. Certain housing arrangements. You know, he had a lot EFTA00111947

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of requests. And I guess, in the beginning, you know, I tried to help him as best as I could, and when I say personal assistant, I don’t really like that word. But what I was really trying to say is that the officerts would say he would always say, where is Dr. a. where is Dr. | ogg You know, that, so that I could, maybe I had pull and could get certain needs for him met, within the prison setting. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MS. a: So, let me put it that way. It sounds a little better than that. And then, you know what? I wanted to follow up with him, and do a session, but he was in attorney conference, like, eight hours a day, during my entire shift. So, I would have to go up there just to check on him, and make sure he was doing okay. So, when I would ask if he was suicidal, he would be, like, I was never suicidal, and, you know, he would laugh, and the attorney would laugh at me. You know, so, it was just kind of - that’s what I meant. And then, when he would chastise, he would become angry. EFTA00111948

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 MR. Right. You know, because he was very ies) demanding and entitled. So, if he got angry 4 when his needs weren’t met, because he was used K a it) sume. n wi ct O rt a wu ct b 5 a ie) fh = b hh oO n ct far oO H ou know, 6 in the outside where, you know, at the snap of inger, he could have certain needs met. oo Hd 5 ron pe. i] the prison, it didn't work that way. oO AJ And just so we are clear i=) | | ive) 4 need. It’s his wants, I guess, would be -- is Ss it] wn f fo] a | i oO oO ct rt o K i] n Because did he have -- Lee) 5 its] n 2) oO al wu te 21 MS. we w te 23 needed? 24 MS. a: He had everything that basic 25 inmates had. EFTA00111949

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 w ~] ive) MR. QR: okay. MS. a: I guess one where psychologists refer to, you know, people engage in certain behaviors to get their needs met. So, their wants and needs. So, yeah. MR. QM: okay. Ms. QJ: wants. MR. a : But do you believe that he had everything he needs? Like , he needed. MS. a: For the most par know he wanted a CPAP machine while he was on ct I mean, I watch. And I was, like, no. Because there was cords, and things like that. So, you cannot have your CPAP machine. And he wanted to get off of watch at the end, because he wasn’t sleeping well, and he said he had sleep apnea, and he wanted his machine. So, I wasn’t going to take him off until I felt he was ready, or give him that, until he was off of watch. MR. QJ: okay. MR. a: “On July 18th, a SHU review was attempted on Epstein, but he was not seen because he was in attorney conference. On July EFTA00111950

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23rd, 2019, Dr. | received a phone call regarding Epstein, because he was found in his cell with a loose noose around his neck, and had been placed on suicide watch. She ordered a suicide risk assessment be completed on him. Dr. aa.” Is that -? Did | -? “Completed the suicide risk assessment later that morning. During the assessment, Epstein told Dr. | he did not remember what happened. He denied suicidality. Had future plans. And he wanted to learn. He wanted to fight his case. And he was acting like a big kid. Dr. | | learned that Epstein had told staff that his cellmate, Tartaglione, had tried to kill him. Dr. || kept Epstein on suicide watch.” What was your understanding, and did you have a conversation with Epstein, after that point, about his interaction with Tartaglione? What exactly transpired -- MS. a: Yes. MR. a: -- on that incident? MS. a : And that was the issue. I mean, he never retracted that statement. I mean, he said that he thought he was a pedophile, and that he had taken this piece -. EFTA00111951

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I don't know if it was a piece, or a piece of cloth, or whatever. And went like this around his neck. And -. MR. a : Now, he told you this? MS. a: Yes. He told my staff that, as well. MR. a : So, he told both you and your staff? MS. Yes. I had seen him subsequently. Again, I don’t have my notes in front of me -- mR. I: sure. MS. a: -- but I remember him telling me that. So, at that point, when we were doing the suicide risk assessment, and Dr. | | was, we had to conceptualize what actually happened. You know, whether this is something he inflicted on himself, and you know, the reasonings why he would do something like that. Or whether it was there was indeed an assault of some form. And so, then, you know, it was referred to SIS, too. So, he wasn’t ever really forthright on what occurred, while he was on watch that time. MR. a: Did you ever believe - based EFTA00111952

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 on your conversations with Mr. Epstein -. Sorry. I’1l just end that. Based on your conversations with Mr. Epstein, did you believe what he stated, in terms of Tartaglione trying to kill him? MS. a: Honestly, I did not know what to believe at that point. So, my mind was opened that there were potentially three things, different things going on, and a 33 percent chance of it being any one of those things. Because you don’t know what happens behind closed doors, in the SHU, or whether they did have a disagreement. MR. QJ: 9 You know what? It actually goes into your hypothesis -- MS. a: Yes. Okay. MR. a: -- let me read that -- MS. a: Okay. MR. a: -- and maybe you can state -- MS. a: Okay. MR. a: -- if that’s right. “Dr. | had three hypotheses, in no particular order, regarding this incident, of what this incident meant. One) it was gamey by either Epstein, Tartaglione, or both. Meaning, there EFTA00111953

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was something they wanted, and they weren’t getting. So, this is how they were going to play the system to their advantage. Two) it was rehearsal by Epstein, who really was suicidal. Three) it was an assault committed by Tartaglione.” Was that the three? That is your three hypotheses? MS. QJ: yes. MR. a: Was there any one of those that you were leaning towards? MS. a: At that point, I didn't know because -- MR. BJ: okay. MS. QJ: 9 -- you know, he was just placed on watch. The SIS investigation hadn’t taken place. I had -. There was enough evidence it could have been any one of those, because the phone call I received in the morning, when he was placed on watch, the lieutenant at that time had told me it was -. She was, like, this doesn't - because they have been around a while - this isn’t a real thing. It was like a little string, and, you know, he was, he seemed fine. And then, when I turned around, he would 47 EFTA00111954

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 be rocking back and forth. So, she, you know, at that initial time, it almost looked a little gamey. Like, that maybe he just went like this with a piece of string, at that point. He had lost his bail. I'm sorry. MR. a: No problem. MS. a: Let me just turn off my phone. At that point, he had lost his bail hearing. The judge denied him -. I'm sorry. MR. J: 9 Bail. MS. QJ: 9=he judge denied him bail. MR. a : So, right before the 23rd, the judge denied him bail, and then this happened? MS. QJ: 9 Right. MR. Ee : Okay. So -- MS. a: So, there is, that is the gamey piece. I mean, if you want my conceptualization, that, you know, that maybe he did, you know, this sends a message, I can't take jail, put me on house arrest. I'm either going to hurt myself or someone else is going to hurt me. Get me out of here. Because he came in very entitled. Like I said, he hada lot of money. He was meeting with his EFTA00111955

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 attorneys every day. He had a lot of money at that point. It’s not like he had lost trial. And Tartaglione had a lot to gain, to save a life, because he is facing life. You know, when you get a letter that you save someone’s life, that’s helpful in your case. I'm not saying that’s it, but I mean, I'm just trying to think of hypotheses. So, that was where the gamey stuff came in. That was the gamey piece. The report from the lieutenant, the gains that both of them could have by this behavior. Could that be why that happened? Number two. He is genuinely upset, and he was, it was a rehearsal behavior, and perhaps he really wanted to hurt himself. So, we need to be cautious. So, it could be the gamey thing. It could be the cautious thing. Or maybe Epstein and Tartaglione had it out that night, and he said something pompous or whatever, and the other one got upset, and he did, you know, put the rope around his neck, and that really frightened Epstein, and that is why he went into, like, this fetal position. Maybe he was scared. You know, could it EFTA00111956

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 w ~] wo 10 11 have been any of those? And subsequently, I think one of his attorneys was convinced that Tartagliione had assaulted him. Not because, I guess he told his attorney the same attorney. So, it could have been any -. I say 33 percent chance it could have been any of those things. MR. a : Now, I understand that that’s what you thought -- Ms. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. QJ: -- on the 23rd. Did that 33 percent chance change, after time, that you believed it was one over the other? MS. a: I never knew. MR. QR: No? MS. a : I mean, I never -- MR. Ee : So, you still -- MR. a : -- thought that they were all equally plausible? MS. QJ: well, I guess towards the end of watch, I thought the assault wasn’t as plausible. Because that he really wanted to hurt Epstein, because later on, Epstein was saying he would go back and cell with him. So, why would you want to go back and cell with EFTA00111957

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 somebody that was trying to hurt you? So, but again, I didn't do the SIS investigation. So, and I never was privy to it. MR. SE: | e-hmn. MS. a: So, I don't know what the findings were. But after that, that made that one less plausible. So, made the other two more plausible, at that point in time, which was either it was a rehearsal behavior, or two) it was a game - it was gamey - to get him out of jail because he was just denied -- MR. QJ: 9 who did he -- Ms. QM: 9 -- bail. MR. QJ: 9 -- who did he make that request to? That he wanted to go back within the cell with Tartaglione? Was that to you directly, or -? MS. a: I think he might have mentioned something like that, because when I was trying to figure out where to house him later, I remember him mentioning that to me. I don’t know if I put it in a note or not. MR. : | e-hon. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: But yeah. So, I began to EFTA00111958

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 think that that was - it was less -. 2 you want to go back in a -? But maybe he’s not 3 thinking clearly. I don’t know. But that made 4 me feel less about that. When he said that 5 MR. SR: | e-hon. 6 vn. SR: Anything else on that? 7 MR. a : Now, being that he just 8 lost bail, had you heard that Tartaglione was 9 actually the one that notified the SHU staff 10 that there was an issue with Epstein, and that 11 is what made them respond to the cell? Had you 2 heard that? 3 MS. a: I mean, I had heard that he 4 called out. 15 MR. a : That’s what I mean. 16 MS. QJ: Yeah. I had -- 7 MR. QM: so -- 8 MS. a: -- I had heard that. 9 MR. Ee : -- with those -- 20 MS. QJ: «But I don’t -. 21 MR ae : -- factors in play, does 22 that make you believe that, you know, aside 23 from the fact that he wanted to go back with 24 Tartaglione, you know, at the end of his watch, 25 or observation, does that also make you think EFTA00111959

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wi ~ wo 10 11 maybe it was less likely that he attempted to harm himsei£, or does that play into your decision? MS. a: Still, those two, I just will never know. At that -- MR. QJ: okay. MS. a: -- for that particular circumstance. Was it, you know, a pact between them, or maybe it wasn’t even Tartaglione trying to get any gain. Maybe it was Epstein trying to call attention to himself, so that he could be - so that he could go back to court, and get that bail, and that they would feel like he wasn’t safe there. MR. a : Right. I guess -- MS. a: And let him go home. MR. Ee : -- my question maybe -- MS. a: Yeah. MR. a : -- wasn’t that clear. MS. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. a : So, I think you used the example that Epstein, after he was coming off of observation, and you were looking to see where he was going to be housed, or who he was going to be housed with, he mentioned that he wo ios) EFTA00111960

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 54 was going to go, you know, he would be willing to go back with Tartaglione, and that was the reason why you thought, maybe, that one of the three was probably less likely. Ph n ct aff to say something is going on with Epstein, come check him out, does that also play into that, or no, you just placed that simply in those other two, that -? MS. a: Simply in those other two. And that -- MR. QR: Okay. MS. a : -- that, I don’t know what to make of that. MR. ae : Okay. Sounds good. MS. a: Whether it was going to be something to help, whether he really was worried about Epstein. MR. a : Okay. I’1ll never know, and -. MR. a : Sounds good. MR. a: This may not be something that you might know. It’s more towards health EFTA00111961

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 services, but maybe you had a conversation with 2 health services Do you know if they ever 3 medically examined him for any broken bones, 4 anything, kind of damages? Just, I know he had 5 here, the ligature mark on his neck, right 6 after the July 23rd incident. 7 8 MR. Was there any -? Did they wo examine him? Like, do you have an xray, MRI, N Fs) Ww | i Any kind of injuries? I don't know. 5 MS. That, I don't know. You would have to look in BEMR. Yeah. For that. oO oO In where? co U wo 5 BEMR. B-E-M-R. BEMR. Nhat’s that? That’s the medical record. No No Ww Nm OD Oo x o wu tet = 0) b t = o y w 0) ct a fu rt 24 MR. a : But as far as when you 25 are meeting him, though, at that time, did you EFTA00111962

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 uw oO notice any injuries on him? MS. a: Just the mark. MR. a : Just the mark. MS. QJ: on the back of his neck. MR. a : Do you remember if he was complaining about any potential broken bones, or collar type issues, or anything? met with Epstein. Epstein reported he was fearful to return to his cell with Tartaglione because Tartaglione had called him a pedophile. Epstein reported Tartaglione had put - had been playing with the bedsheet before Epstein fell asleep. And then, next thing Epstein remembered, he was waking up snoring. Epstein denied being suicidal, and reported being unhappy with this legal situation. He had been eating, drinking, and sleeping. Dr. Po took Epstein off suicide watch, and placed on EFTA00111963

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w x) ” 2 MR. a : Nowe, on that, when the 3 inmate goes from suicide watch to psychological 4 observation, is the executive staff conferred 5 with? 6 aa: Yes. 7 MR. a : They are? And do they 8 provide an opinion on that, or was it just to 9 let them know? 10 MS. a: No. We just let them know. 11 MR. es : Just to let them know. 2 Okay. So, they don’t have to say, oh, yes, we 3 agree, or please keep him on suicide watch, or 4 anything like that? 15 MS. a: If they feel that way, they 16 can express it, and we will keep it in mind, though, and again, we make those decisions. 20 MR. QJ: §9Now, being that this is July 21 24th, the next day, and he had possibly tried 22 to hang himself -- 24 MR. a : -- on July 23rd, and they 25 took him off - Dr. QR) takes him off EFTA00111964

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 suicide watch and places him on psychological observation. Is that normal practice? MS. aa: Yeah, because psychological observation is, he’s in the exact same cell, he’s being constantly observed. She spent a long time with him. I think she interviewed him, like, over an hour, an hour and a half. And she just felt that there was no eminent risk of at that time. Like, while he was ina suicide watch cell, he wasn’t going to do anything to harm himself. So, we stepped him down. I think maybe gave hima -. I don’t know if she gave him underwear, or gave him something, so that he was more comfortable. So, it wasn’t so depriving. Because he kept adamantly denying wanting to harm himself. And, you know, she came and talked to me. I didn't sit in that interview because she’s a licensed psychologist, and she felt it was safe to step him down, because he would still be by himself in that cell, constantly observe with the lights on all night. Nothing would have changed. MR. ee : So, I guess -- MS. a: So. EFTA00111965

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : -- what he wants to know, though, is, was that normal? Is that normal practice -- MR. a : -- for her to do that? MS. a: We do that. I mean -- MR. a : Okay. MS. a: -- not all facilities have the step down, the psychological observation. Some people just have the suicide watch. And then, they will give them privileges while they are on suicide watch. But we have that, so, if you want, because suicide watch is so strict, that he couldn’t even have a pair of underwear. He couldn’t, you know, have a piece of mail. Nothing. So, we didn't feel he needed that strict of supervision, but we still wanted him constantly observed, to see, and we could always step him back up, if he engaged in any behavior, because he would be constantly watched. MR. a : All right. So, suicide watch and psychological observation are extremely similar. MS. a: Very similar. Except that we EFTA00111966

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 can give a little more privilege. Like I said, we could give him a book to read. Or we could give him a pair of - start with the underwear. Or, you know, he could have toothpaste, and give it back to brush his teeth. That type of thing. It wasn’t as strict. MR. es : And at the MCC, when an inmate potentially attempts to harm themselves, how long are they typically on suicide watch versus observation, before -- MS. a: Well, that -- MR. a : -- they (Indiscernible *00:47:51)? MS. QJ: 9 -- depends on how the inmate presents. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: I mean, I have had people on suicide watch for long periods of time because they can't verbalize any protective factors, which would be reasons they have for wanting to be alive at the time. Reasons they have to live. Factors that we would look at to say, hmm, there is more factors here that suggest he wants to be alive, and that he has reasons to be alive versus not. Versus risk factors. EFTA00111967

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 So, at that time, he had verbalized enough protective factors that Dr. FY felt comfortable stepping him down to psychological observation. I don’t have her SRA in front of me, but if you read it, it would have his reasons for wanting to be alive, his presentation of not exhibiting any acute mental health symptoms, not being depressed. So, she stepped him down at that point. MR. a : Okay. Now, do you know, when they are on psychological observation, are they allowed to have attorney visits? MS. a: They usually consult with us to see if we feel comfortable with that. And I do allow it. A lot of times, as long as, you know, there is a lieutenant present, or there is an officer present there. MR. a : Okay. And in this case, do you know if Epstein was allowed attorney visits while he was on observation? MR. I: § so -- MS. a: I don't remember. EFTA00111968

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MS. a: It’s very possible. MR. a : -- okay. And do you know if the institution was contacted by anyone, such a i) Epstein’s attorneys, or the judge, asking that he be taken off of suicide watch and placed on observation because he wasn’t being afforded attorney visits, or for any other reason? MS. a: No. I don’t recall that happening. MR. a : Okay. And on that same note, do you recall either the judge, an attorney, or anyone from the outside, contacting the institution when he was taken off of observation and placed back in the SHU? MS. a: I don’t recall speaking to any attorney about that. MR. Ee : No, not you speaking with them. But I mean, them contacting - I'm assuming they would contact the warden. MS. a: That, I don’t know about. MR. a : And the warden never had that, or anyone, any of the executive staff, or anyone had any conversation with you or staff, EFTA00111969

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 saying, this is what we are getting from the 2 outside, the judge contacted us, or the 3 attorney, you know, the attorneys -? 4 MS. a: I don't know. 6 Hmm-mm . 7 MR. a : So, that was - you don’t 8 believe that was at all factored into the 9 taking off of suicide wa 10 MS. a: Oh, no. It would never be 11 factored anyw 2 Okay. 3 Yeah. 4 So, regardless, if they 5 you, that wouldn't be a factor? t oO 77) No. I mean, that wouldn't -. hey would never influence our decision. Okay. 9 MS. a: One way or another. 21 MR. ae: You mentioned before, when Lee) 5 22 somebody is taken off of suicide watch and 23 placed back in psychological, step down into 24 psychological observation, they are given back 25 one piece of item at a time. EFTA00111970

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MS. a: Well, no, sometimes it could be more than one. It depends on the situation. MR. QR: okay. MS. a: But what I am saying is, when you were reading the paper -- MR. aa: Yeah. MS. a: -- it sounded like we just give them everything. We make those decisions. We may step them one at a time, if it is more significant. We may give them a book. Anda pair of underwear. I mean, we may give them -. It is just whatever, it is at the discretion of the psychologists that interview them, on what they are going to allow the inmate to have. MR. a : Do you know how it worked with Mr. Epstein? Was he given one =ime—item at a time back -? One or two items, or was he given everything back? MS. a: I don’t remember. I don’t think he was given everything back, initially. That’s for sure. But -. MR. a: Okay. I'm going to keep going. MR. QM: sean. MR. a : “At that time, Dr. | was EFTA00111971

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 not any clearer on which of her hypotheses might have been true. Epstein could have been using his charm to breed doubt about what happened. Psychology had not been contacted by Epstein’s attorneys with concerns regarding his mental health. On July 25th, 2019, Dr. [J met with Epstein, who was in good spirits. And greeted her by saying, ‘Welcome back.’ Dr. | confronted Epstein on the attempted suicide incident, in an attempt to get answers. Epstein said he was baffled over it, and told Dr. | to give him some ques to help him remember. He continued with his requests and complaints, and did not want to go back to the SHU. Epstein told Dr. a. ‘I have a life, and want to go back to living my life.’ Dr. | kept him on observation because her questions had not been answered, regarding their suicide attempt.” MR. a : Or the suicide attempt. MR. a: “Regarding the suicide attempt.” MS. a: True. MR. a: “After a conversation with Dr. a. the national suicide prevention EFTA00111972

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 coordinator from central office, Dr. F got 2 involved in Epstein’s housing. Dr. || 3 recommended housing Epstein with a sex offender 4 in SHU, which Dr. | passed; on via email; 5 to executive staff. On July -.” 6 MR. a : Do you know which 7 executive staff you sent that to? 8 MS. a: No. I know I gave a bunch of 9 documentation, when I had my last interview. 10 There may have been an email. I don’t remember 11 who -- 2 Sure. 3 it was so. 4 And did you concur with 15 his recommendation? t Oo 77) is w y “On July 26th, 2019, Dr. 9 | met with Epstein. Ep 20 needed to establish trust with Dr. J.” Lee) 5 tein said he it) 21 What did he mean by that? 22 MS. a: He kept saying this thing, if 23 you want -. It was this weird thing he said, 24 something. “If you want my trust, I have to 25 trust you.” And that was trust that, if he EFTA00111973

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asked for certain things, that I would follow through with those wants. You know, if I said I was going to do something, I would follow through with it type of thing. I just remember that. MR. a: Basically, he wanted you to provide something, so he can reciprocate? MS. QJ: 9 Right. MR. a: Basically, if you wanted answers from him, you had to provide him with - Ms. EJ: No. MR. a : -- is that what -? MS. QM: «sit wasn’t like that. It was just - again, I probably would have to refer to my notes for that one - but it was just a weird thing that he used to say. Like, if you want, if we want to have, like, this trusting relationship type of thing, then, you know, I have to trust that you are going to follow through with your stuff, and you -. And then, you can trust me. I don't know. It was strange. I don’t really know what he meant by that. MR. a: Okay. “He continued with EFTA00111974

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) oF oo complaints and jokes, making reference to Dr. | being Jewish, like him. It is against Jewish religion to commit suicide.” Is that something he mentioned, or is that a statement from you? MS. aa: No. He joked about it one time, in attorney conference. I didn't know how he knew I was even Jewish, but he said something to me, like, what’s a nice Jewish girl like you doing here? You know, working in - or some comment like that. MR. a: Okay. MR. QJ: anc -- MS. a: But it is against the Jewish religion to commit suicide. But he didn't say anything until that one time in attorney conference. MR. a : And you were in there, in the attorney conference, with him? MS. QJ: well, because I went to go check on him, remember, because I -- MR. SJ: 9 e-hoon. MS. a: -- I know he was never in his cell. EFTA00111975

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LIMITED ies) w co ive) co OFFICIAL MS. joke. MR. MS. MR. reads USE in there, front of the attorney, was never ava And he state He made, like, a lit the ilable. d that? like, in tle, a little way that it he stated “It is came that might notes. I don’t know if But he -- I don’t -- I don’t but he -- know been in he mentioned where that EFTA00111976

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. Ee : -- in the attorney -. MS. a: -- say anything about it’s against the Jewish -. Oh, maybe he did. I don’t remember. He may have. He may have, in a joking way, said something like that to me. I don’t remember, to be honest. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: I would have to see -- MR. QR: Okay. MS. a: -- if that is one of my notes. Or if it is something that was just in passing at attorney conference. I just remember that one incident. About the Jewish thing. Like, what’s a Jewish girl like you doing here? Or something. MR. QM: okay. MR. a: “Epstein said he did not like pain, and didn't want to hurt himself. Epstein had been interacting with the companions assigned to him regularly. On July 27th, 2019, Dr. | met with Epstein, who was anxious about going back to SHU, due to the fact he did not know how he got the marks. Epstein did not answer Dr. | questions about that night. She had begun working more therapeutically with EFTA00111977

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wi ~] wo 10 11 him, and provided him with handouts to cope with housing. Lieutenant Doctor’s investigation into a possible assault regarding this incident still had not returned any . Dr. i kept Epstein on psychological observation.” MR. a : Just real quick on that. It just says, “He was anxious about going back wu o swer i) to the SHU due to the fact he did not know how he got the marks.” So, he had changed his story of how he got the marks, at that point? MS. a: He didn't change the story. He just didn't say anymore it was Tartaglione. He was then, I don’t know how I got the marks. So, he -- MR. Ee : So, he went -- MS. a: -- he kept changing his n ct 2) ia] ke MR. ee : -- all right. So, he went from Tartaglione did it, to I don't know how I did it?+ MS. QJ: Right. MR. a : Or how it happened?— MS. QJ: 9 Right. MR. Ee : And do you know why that EFTA00111978

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 happened, or did you question him about that? 2 MS. a: Yeah, but he just kept being 3 vague, like he didn't know anything, or that, 4 like, he blacked out, or he doesn't recall how 5 it happened. 6 MR. a : Was he questioned, like, 7 well, before you said that Tartaglione did it, 8 and now you are saying you don’t recall. 9 MS. a: I don’t know if Dr. | | 10 confronted him in that way, because we are not, 11 like, investigators. 2 MR. QM: Sure. sure. 3 You know, so, we don’t -. 4 on’t always think that way. t wi a Okay. ' oO mn So, I don't know, but 7 think, likely, she probably mentioned that, and 8 then, he was, like, oh, well, I don’t, I don’t 9 know. He was very vague. 20 MR. QM: Okay. 21 24 MR. QJ: «9 “on culy 28th, 2019, Dr. -ein, who appeared the same. EFTA00111979

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 His logbook showed no signs of suicidality, and he was participating in his legal meetings. There had been no contact from Epstein’s legal team regarding any mental health concerns.” MR. a : Okay. So, there it says that he actually was meeting with his legal team. MS. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. QR: Okay. MS. a: So, being that he was on psych ops, that he wasn’t acutely, eminently suicidal, that he had been denied any current thoughts of hurting himself, and over the past several days, while on watch, he hadn’t displayed any self-harm behaviors. Or any odd or unusual behaviors. Likely, we didn't have a problem with him going there, as long as there were staff up there -- MS. EJ: 9 -- to watch him. MR. a : So, he would actually go from observation to the attorney conference rooms? MS. a: And then, be escorted back. Yes. 73 EFTA00111980

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LIMITED No No No ies) w co ive) co wo ion) OFFICIAL USE 74 the suicide -- 50, it wasn’t that watch area. MR. a : Do you know if th day meetings? Like, he normally had, or was i MS. a: I don’t know how long the Yeah. aus it V don’t know, he was meeting with the attorn from, like, 7:00 or 8:00 a.m., up until, like, 7:00 p.m., At least outside of this MR. ae : -- but you don’t know if ould never remember, while he was on EFTA00111981

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~) wi LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch, how many hours a day. I think he was 2 probably there for a significant period of 3 time. 4 MR. a : While he was on observation? w J] i a Oo io fu het 8 MS. a: But then, he would be 9 returned to psych ops while someone would sit 10 on him. 11 MR. a: But is that normal, though? 12 I mean, someone who is on psych ops be - you 3 mentioned that somebody who was in psych 4 observation should be monitored constantly. 15 Right? There’s someone monitoring -- 16 MS. QJ: 9 Yeah. 17 MR. a: -- them? 8 MS. a: But he was right in front of 9 the officer that worked at attorney conference. 20 He was right there. And right by the 21 lieutenant’s office. So, they could be 22 observing him the whole time. 23 MR. a: Okay. So, someone -- 24 MS. QJ: 9 Right. 25 MR a : -- is sitting there, watching EFTA00111982

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 him -- MS. a: Yeah. MR. a: -- at all times? MS. a: Yeah. There was somebody there. Like, the way our attorney. I don't know. Have you been to our attorney conference room? MR. J: 9 Me-hoon.. MS. a: Do you know where the officer sits there, there is an attorney conference room right next to him, that has windows. That’s where Epstein was every day. MR. a : So, you could see in? MS. : Full. Yeah. You could see his, like, white - you come off the elevator - you saw his white hair. Like, he was right there. MR. QR: 9 okay. MS. a: Like, he could be seen by attorney conference officer. At all times. And he was with his attorneys. So, I mean, God forbid, he started banging his head for second, the officer was right outside his window. MR. a: Okay. the if one EFTA00111983

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LIMITED w ~] ive) OFFICIAL USE 77 MS. a: Yeah. So, we felt, you know, it was okay, and again, he wasn’t on suicide watch. We didn't think he was eminently suicidal. But precautionary, we had him on psych ops, because we - the vagueness of his MR. a: Okay. MS. a: And not feeling completely comfortable putting him in until we observed him over a period of time. So, that is why. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: Because he wasn’t on suicide watch anymore. So. MR. a: Anything else on that? MR. J: «No. =I gue note, if he is meeting his, with his attorneys, fa s just on that while he was on observation, are his psychological needs being met? MS. QJ: well, that’s why we had to go up there, and talk to him. MR. ae : Right, right, right. MS. a: So, we would go up there and interview him. MR. a : And around how long would EFTA00111984

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE s five to ten minutes. ies) i 4 MS to check in. But a lot 5 of on suicide watch, t were, too I 6 mean, we would review the suicide watch book throughout the night, because we are not there co 24 hours. oO AJ Mm-hmm. i=) So, we would look at his book 1 from before his visit, through the night. And 2 then, we would see him daily. Mm-hmm. 4 MS. a: We would see him -. And ive) Fs) 5 maybe, of times we saw him before he 16 saw his attorney 7 Sure. 8 I don’t, I don't know if 9 - 20 So, as far as -- I personally went up there 22 once 23 -- but what -- 24 MS. a: I don't know if Dr. | 25 maybe went there once or twice, because when EFTA00111985

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 she went back there to see him, he was with his attorney. MR. a : Now, would that be any different than if he were not seeing his attorneys? Was that the same amount of time that psychology would see him, if he was with his attorneys, or staying in the cell where he was being observed? MS. a: Yeah. We usually, like, 15 minutes. I mean, it’s not a therapy session. MR. a : Sure. MS. a: We’re just, you know, doing a mental status, seeing how they are doing. Are you eating or sleeping? Are you having thoughts of hurting yourself? We read the book. MR. ae : Mm-hmm. MS. a: In its entirety, for the past 24 hours, to see, did he voice anything to the companions that he wanted to hurt himself. Did he take his meals? Did he eat his meals? Did he shower? Is he, you know, is he displaying any behaviors that are consistent with depression? So, we look at all of that. And then, we interview him. We do the mental EFTA00111986

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 status. We ask him how he’s doing. And so, that would be pretty consistent. It might have been a little shorter on occasion, if he was up there with his attorneys, because his attorneys were there. So, it wouldn't really be confidential. But we do -- MR. es : Oh, so, when you were conversing with him, it would be in front of his attorneys? MS. a: -- yeah. Me. I: Okay. MR. a: Is that normal? MS. a: Yeah. Well, because he was in there with his - he has a right to his legal meetings - so, he was with his attorneys. It wasn’t every time. I mean, there might have been one or two occasions where we had to see him up there, because he was in the meeting with the attorneys. So, yeah. We talked to him in front of his attorney to make sure he was okay. MR. a : Now, when you say he has a right to his attorneys, if he was on suicide watch, would he have the right to his attorneys? EFTA00111987

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 w ~] wo 10 11 MS. a: Normally, I really do try to get them to meet with their attorney. I mean, that’s only if they are actively, like, cutting, or -- MR. QM: Yeah. MS. aa: -- wanting to hurt themselves, then I would have a lieutenant up there. MR. a : Sure. MS. a: Like, I always try to give people the right to be with their attorneys because that could make them even more depressed. MR. ae : Sure. MS. a : If you deprive them of being able to work on their legal case. MR. ae : Okay. MR. QJ: «11 right. “on July 29th, Dr. | visited Epstein. Epstein expressed that he would like to stay in psychological observation because it is safe. Epstein had been requesting his CPAP machine, so that he could get a good night’s sleep. Due to the machine having a cord, this could not be accommodated in psychological observation. EFTA00111988

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B82 w ~] wo 10 11 Epstein was given a chance to stay in ” psychological observation - MR. a : A choice. Not a chance. MR. a : Sorry. MR. a : Epstein was given -. MR. a: “Epstein was given a choice to stay in psychological observation one more night without it, or go to the SHU with it. He chose to stay in psychological observation one more night. Dr. | consulted with the executive staff, prior to this decision.” MR. a : Yeah. MR. a: “On July || transitioned Epstein back to the SHU. ies) Oth, 2019, Dr. Dr. | sent an email, updating the appropriate staff for Epstein’s transition off psychological observation, and the need for him to be housed with a cellmate.” MS. QR: 9 Okay. MR. QJ: 9 Bear with us. MS. a: So, that contact was at his cell. It wasn’t with the attorney. If there was, like I said, a couple of contacts that n were in attorney conference, they were field - most of them were at his cell, we caught him EFTA00111989

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 before he went up to his legal visits. That last visit was in person. I remember that visit. a : Okay. MS. QJ: 9 with the cpap. a: Now, do you recall, when Dr. || transitioned Epstein back to the SHU, was that solely the decision of psychology, or was there any recommendation from executive management? Like, the warden, the associate warden, or somebody from the outside, asked before. MS. QJ: No. That was our decision. After him being between suicide watch and psych ops for almost a full week. It was our decision that he was not eminently suicidal, and could be transitioned. MR. a : And just to, I mean, Epstein expressed that he would like to stay in psychological observation because it was safe. So, he actually preferred psychological observation over the SHU? MS. a: Because he wasn’t being able EFTA00111990

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to be housed where he wanted to be housed. He didn't want to go to Special Housing. Like I said, he wanted to be housed in the Cadre unit. He wanted to dictate his housing arrangements. When they weren’t what he wanted them to be, and I guess maybe he heard rumors, or whatever, that the SHU was, like, a bad place, or a scary place, he didn't want to go back there. But a lot of inmates don’t want to go to SHU, and that is why, earlier, when you said a lot of people fake mental illness, or fake suicidality, so that they can come down to our suicide watch area, and just interact with the companions, and hope that maybe someone will slip them something they couldn't have while they were in the SHU. Or just to get a timeout because it could be loud up there, because inmates will scream outside their cells, because I don't know if you are familiar with an AD-SEG (Phonetic Sp. *01:06:16) unit, or a Special Housing Unit, where inmates are in a cell, with a cellmate, like, 23 out of 24 hours a day. So, it gets loud and rowdy. So, a lot of times, people try to come down. It’s, like, almost, like, the Marriott, EFTA00111991

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo wi 1 you know, to come to our suicide watch area, where it is peaceful and quiet, and they don’t 3 have to hear things, or if they are having 4 problems with officers up there. So, it’s not 5 uncommon for any inmate to try to avoid going 6 to the Special Housing Unit. 8 MS. a: You know, it’s not an 9 uncommon occurrence. 10 MR. a : Yeah. And I'm assuming - 11 - 2 MS. a: I never have any -- a : -- (Indiscernible 4 *01:06:50). a: -- inmates say I want to go the, you know, the SHU. 7 MR. ae : From observation? No. ive) a) c Ww th U f fo] on i Q tan ct ie) co U 22 MS. a: Unless they are so sick of it 23 because they have been deprived for so long 24 down there, that they feel that their wants and 25 needs will be met, or better suited up in the EFTA00111992

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE oy SHU, then they will be, like, okay, I’1l go back, I’1ll go back. MR. QJ: -- in observation, he was a: Not ne wanted to go to the Cadre Unit, which is a MS. a: With all the other, with tons places he didn't want to go. MR. ae : -- rather be in observation than the SHU. that has n K oO wu 1) jailed before. EFTA00111993

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co s. He’s probably afraid, He’s in, you know, his late sixti oO like anybody would be. MR. a : So, he preferred the general housing unit over the SHU, though? Cadre Unit. Is that different than the general housing rticularly, the dorm-style Yeah. Maybe I'm not -. housing units, you are celled with a cellmate Because in the regular Cadre Unit, Mm-hmm. -- at night. there ¢ tiers of dorms. So, it io MR a: Oh, it’s per -- MS. a: -- it’s more open. MR. a : -- it’s per tier, would it OFFICIAL USE 87 EFTA00111994

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo oo 1 MS. a: I'm not sure per tier. I 2 know there is about - it can house, like, 100, 3 120 inmates The dorms 4 MR. a : With no, like, doors, or 5 not separated? 6 MS. aa: No. There is just a tier. 7 There is a -. No. 8 MR. a : So, he -. So, we had 9 always heard, up until this time, that he 10 wanted to be housed alone. What you are saying 11 is he wanted to be actually housed with more 2 people? 3 MS. a: Well, that is where -. Well, 4 he wanted to be housed there, where Manafort 15 and other people had been housed, where Cadre 16 inmates were housed. Maybe because the Cadres 7 were, he felt they were less dangerous. 8 MR. a : Okay. 9 MS a: I don't know. I know when he 20 came in, he didn't like being on the unit. 21 That was for sure. 22 MR. QJ: | and is the Cadre -- 23 MS a: You know? 24 MR. a : -- Unit the low -- 25 MS. EJ: 9 Yeah EFTA00111995

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. Ee : -- security level -- oo ite) Ww 5 | | b 7 =] at] rt 0) ts] 4 MS. a: Yeah. Because those w Oo 3 oO o) ct y w rt sentenced, to lower fon) n m 5 rt U =] Q o i] have been wanted to 8 be where the lower sentence inmates were. 9 MS. 10 MR a: That was the only place, I think, he was wiling to go. In our N Ww a 12) = | 0 K ifs] wu rt ions. 5 MR. a: Was Paul Manafort still point? 7 Ms. QJ: I don’t know if he had f foal ct s oO iad o w rt ct x fu rt 8 recently left He thought he was still there 9 because he was only there briefly. 20 MR. MJ: 9 So, he’s not asking -. 21 he, as if he knows Paul Manafort, and he wants 22 to go be housed with Paul Manafort. He just No ion) a =] rt n ct 12) oO e -. He just wanted to be in the 24 same area as Paul Manafort was housed. EFTA00111996

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] somebody else, mor there, and he said person was. un. SE: because they were I don’t know what that’s how, that’s it was part of his wants to be associ people, and these inmate. You know, comfortable being MR. I can't remember w 30 Okay. And there was somebody else. ho he said. There was e high-profile, that was he wanted to be where that Okay. Maybe he felt it was safer surviving there, or whatever. his thought process was, but -. I think it’s -. I mean, personality. I mean, he ated with higher-level were, that was a higher-level so, he would feel amongst those type of people. Okay. Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to keep going. a: importance of SHU the following reas “Dr. YY discussed the inmates having a cellmate for ons: it decreases isolation; EFTA00111997

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it decreases privacy; provides a distraction; provides a rescue opportunity.” MS. a : Yes. MR. QJ: 9 “at risk settings for inmates, including housing, single cells, and private spaces. SHU employees receive training on suicide prevention quarterly. All employees receive suicide prevention training once a year. Dr. | provided slides from MCC’s suicide prevention training to the interviewing agents, reference that, referred to as references any denying, attached to his report. She stated all lieutenants should be aware of the cellmate policy. Both due to the training regularly provided, and psychological services constantly reminding them of the procedure, and needs of specific inmates. Dr. | noted, after Epstein’s death, his old cellmate’s label was still on his door. That is one of the things that the psych department looks for, in their daily rounds in the SHU, that there are two bodies in each cell.” Now, that label on the door, if an inmate is removed, should that label have been removed, too? MS. a: Yes. EFTA00111998

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. a: How soon? MS. a: It should have been done immediately, especially since he was housed with Epstein. MR. a: Why should it have been removed immediately? 7] MS. a: Because then his cellmate wa bailed out, and wasn’t coming back. MR. a: By removing it, would that also give SHU officers, inform the SHU officers that there is only one inmate in that cell? MS. a: That would have helped. Yes. Most definitely. It wouldn't have been the only way they should know, but it definitely would have —helped the situation. MR. Ee : Are we talking about August 9th right now? MS. a: I don't know. MR. a: Yeah. Because it says, “Dr. HMMM ote that after Epstein’s death, his old cellmate’s label was still on his door.” MR. Ee : Okay. So, who would have been, on August 9th, the one who would have done the rounds in the SHU? MS. a: The psychologist?+ EFTA00111999

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MR. Ee : I guess, it sounds like - 2 = 3 MS. a: Well, psychology, psychology 4 rounds is weekly. We do weekly rounds. And 5 monthly SHU reviews, which are more intense 6 rounds. So, we didn't see Epstein every single 7 day. 8 MR. a : Yeah. Okay. 9 MS. a: That, we didn't do. We don’t 10 do daily rounds. We do weekly rounds. 11 Sometimes, we are up there, we are up there 12 almost every day, especially when we were, our 13 SHU was full, because there is always inmates 14 that have concerns or needs. So, if we are up 15 there, and an inmate has a concern, we go to 16 that tier and see those inmates. 17 MR. ae : Just those -- 18 MS. a: But as far as going cell to 19 cell, we do that weekly. 20 MR. QJ: -- okay. Because this, 21 yeah, this last sentence said, “This is one of 22 the things the psych department looks for in 23 their daily rounds in the SHU -- 24 MS. a: In our rounds -- 25 MR. a: -- that there are two EFTA00112000

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE each cell. bodies in MS. In are doing our weekly rounds, you are not rounds. oO week that was have to look at the it was done on that Hm ” our rounds. Like, if we rounds, and we notice that Okay. someone doesn't have a if we know that person is say why is this inmate housed by So, when they said daily doing that every day. m-mm . They meant your weekly And do you know what day done back then? don’t. No? do not know the -. would SHU logs. it Okay. And do you know if Friday, on August 9th, the EFTA00112001

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 wo ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MS. a: No. But I do know, on August 8th, before I left for vacation, I personally went up there, just to check on him, and he had a cellmate at that time. MR. a : Right. Okay. MR. RJ: 9 Anything else? MR. a : Nope. MR. a: “Dr. | was aware that Dr. fF attended the close out meeting that week, and discussed Epstein’s desire to have a single cell, but his need for a cellmate. Dr. | was unaware regularity rounds by the correctional officers were not being completed. She is considered executive staff, so officers would not tell her they were not being completed, and inmates wouldn’t tell her because of fear of retaliation by the guards. Dr. | noted Lieutenant i is very regimented, and regularly does what she asks. Dr. | was not aware that Epstein signed a new will on August 8th. Had she known, it would have been considered a red flag, and Epstein would have been placed on psychological observation. The attorneys did not tell anyone EFTA00112002

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) oO "y "y H = He a mn tt wo a How did you learn that he had signed a will? mett 1g that you learned firsthand, from the attorneys, or by MR. a : Do you know if he actually, in fact, signed a new will on the MR. Ee : Okay. Did you bring that up during the interview, or did the agents ask you about it? MS. a: That, I don’t remember. MS. a: How it came up. have asked me a question, if I knew about it. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: And I may have said, probably said no. I didn't know about it directly from EFTA00112003

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 them. I knew about it from reading it in the paper. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: But one thing I did say, after reading the paper, gee, that would have been helpful information. Because had I known that, I would have said, that is a red flag, and let’s put him back on, and just watch him for a few more days, and see if we can get more information from him. About why he would do that, or what was going on. MR. a : Should have the attorneys notified you? MS. QJ: well, the attorneys have their own ethical, you know, confidentiality issues. MR. ae : Mm-hmm. MS. a: So, you know, a lot of times, attorneys call us all the time if they are concerned about their patients. I mean, I get, I used to get, like, several a week, where attorneys would call in and say, you know, I'm worried, I talked to my client on the phone. I don’t like how he sounded. Can psychology check on that inmate? And I was, like, why EFTA00112004

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 didn't they do that this time? Because they always do that. And we do. We go immediately. So, if that was true, I wish someone would have called us, but they didn't. MR. a: All right. Thank you +tadiseernmibie—-+*$4+45+34,Did you have the key to the restroom?+ I think that that4s +iadiseceranibie*~$41:15+36}+person needed it. MR. QJ: on. MR. a : Is this the only one we have? MR. QR: Ssves. MS. a: But, you know, again, like, attorneys have their own ethical -. Like, they can't -. I don't know what their ethical standards are, but I guess, if he didn't say he was going to kill himself, and he’s just signing a will, they don’t -. I don’t think they have to tell, call us. It would be a choice if they had a concern, that he was going to hurt himself. vR. I: okay. MS. QJ: pot -. MR. a: Well, before -. MS. a: Yeah. Yeah. EFTA00112005

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Did he ever bring up changing his will in any of his your meetings, or the psychological meeting -- MR. a: -- psychological meetings with him? Ms. BJ: = No. MR. a: That was the first time you guys had, you ever heard that would be from -- MS. QJ: 9 Right. MR. QM: 9 -- (indiscernible *01:16:30). MS. a: After the fact. I read that, and I was, like -. MR. QJ: 9 And now, why would it be a red flag? MS. a: Because he is in jail. He is not happy being in jail. He is facing a lot of time. He’s high risk. And he is signing a will. You know, I definitely would have interviewed him. I can't say 100 percent he would be put on psych ops, but if he didn't give me the answers that I was looking for, he would have been put on some form of observation, until we could get the answers that we were looking for. EFTA00112006

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) MR. a: “Dr. | mentioned that was the first day ever, she ever heard about the will being changed. There was no discussion with Epstein before -- MS. QJ: No. MR. a: -- about the will.” MS. a : Epstein never shared that with me. It was something that I read after the fact. MR. SJ: 9 e-hoon. MS. a: And again, I don't know if it’s true or not true. MR. a : Sure. MR. a: “On August 8th, 2019, Dr. | attended the SHU meeting. She couldn’t recall all who was there, but it included unit team members, executive staff, and attorneys for MCC. Nothing significant was discussed about Epstein at the meeting. She conducted SHU rounds, to see Epstein.” Is this what you mentioned before, that before you went on vacation? MS. QJ: = vm-hon. MR. a: Okay. “He had a cellmate at the time, and Epstein had the lower bunk. He 100 EFTA00112007

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 didn't have any visible problems, appeared in 2 good spirits, and reported getting along with 3 his cellmate. He had received his pack number, 4 which allows him to make phone calls, and he 5 had asked for his books from psychological 6 observation.” When he received his pack 7 number, do you know if it was active, and was 8 he able to make phone calls with it? 9 MS. a: That, I don't know. That, 10 only unit team would know. 11 MR. Ee : Do you know around what 2 time the SHU meeting would have been held? 3 MS. a: Thursdays. Thursdays, at 4 that time, they say that my meetings have w changed with different -- 16 MR. Ee : Sure. 7 MS. a: -- every warden changes it. 8 MR. a : And what time -- 9 MS. a: -- I believe they -- 20 MR. QJ: | -— did you work? 21 MS. a: -- were in the morning. 22 Like, around 9:00. 23 MR. a : Okay. 24 Ms. QJ: 9Like, 9:00. 25 MR. a : So, if around, like, EFTA00112008

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 3:00, 3:30, the Marshals sent an email saying 2 that his cellmate was going to be transferred, 3 that wouldn't have been discussed at that SHU 4 meeting? 6 MR. a : And did you know anything w 7 about any emails -- 8 MS. BR: 9 No. 9 MR. a : -- regarding -? 10 MS. a: And I didn't know the inmate 11 was -. The inmate -. I didn't know that he 2 went to court that day, or anything. I was not 3 even in town. 4 MR. ae : Right. I'm saying the day before -- 7 MR. ae : -- on August 8th, there w 8 was emails that were sent from the U.S. Marshal 9 Service, saying that his cellmate Reyes was 20 going to be transferred to another institution. 21 I was just wondering if that was at all 22 discussed -- 23 MS. QJ: =No. Not that I -- 24 MR. a : -- that wasn’t discussed. 25 MS. QJ: 9 -- and I, likely, I don’t EFTA00112009

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 know. Yeah. I was -. Huh. I don’t remember hearing that at all. wR. Okay. MS. a: Because that would have been MR. a : Even after the fact? MS. a : -- that would been something that, you know, the lightbulb kind of would have went on. MR. a : Sure. MS. a: I was pretty shocked to find out that he didn't have a cellmate. MR. QJ: Right. MS. QJ: «after he killed himself. That was the first question I asked. When I was away, and I was went to Vancouver, and the times difference was off, and my flight was delayed. I had slept for, like, two hours. It was very strange. I went into the restroom, you know how you bring your phone? I know, TMI. I pressed my phone, and all these alerts came on, and everyone was texting me, and then, I saw that he had hung himself, and I was just, like, how could that happen? And the first thing, when I called my associate warden, the EFTA00112010

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 first thing I asked i 7] te? fu , Gid he have a cellm 2 Because that was the first thing that came in ies) my mind. And she was, like, no. 4 MR. QJ: what -?) So -- w co wo i=) a: You know, 1 And then, I was just, like, 2 crying, because I was, like, why? Like -. MR. a : And did she respond to 4 where his cellmate was? don't know, Dr. a. You know, this was all just that morning. ive) 3 n't. She was, like, I oO Lee) 5 Right. 9 MS. a: I mean, she was probably, you And that was it. I 21 mean, later on, I found out what happened, 22 which was that his cellmate went to court. He 25 MS. a: -- bonded out, and that they EFTA00112011

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 didn't replace the cellmate with him. 2 MR. a : -- so, that is not 3 accurate information. So, who told you that he 4 went to court and bonded out? 5 MS. a: That was later on. I don’t 6 remember the person who told me that. 7 MR. a : But someone told you he actually went to court, and not transferred to co a different institution? wo i=) az 11 MR. QJ: Okay. iz 2 MS : That’s what I had h : That he had gone to court, 3 and then he was -. That might not be accurate, 4 though. He was bailed out, or he wasn’t, 15 didn't come back. 7 MS. a: That’s what I had heard. 8 MR. a : Sure. But you don’t 9 remember where you heard that from? 20 MS. EJ: 9 dmn-mn. 21 MR. QR: okay. 22 MR. a: Well, just to clarify, I 23 think you mentioned it already. There was an 24 email that came up the day before, from the 25 Marshals, on August 8th, in the afternoon, that EFTA00112012

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) stated that he was being transferred - Reyes was being transferred - to another facility. He wasn’t going to court. So, that morning, would, he wasn’t going to court. He was actually transferred out to another facility. MS. aa: Okay. Okay. So -- MR. QJ: 9oNow, if an email like that came out, whose responsibility would it have been to make those notifications up, hey, listen, Reyes is now gone? MS. a: I mean, everybody reviews that. I mean, the captain’s review that log. The warden. The executive staff. I mean, I guess they would all see that. MR. a : Would psychology have t court production list? MS. a: I don’t always review the court production list. No. MR. Ee : Yeah. No. You weren’t even there. Ms. QJ: =No. Yeah. MR. ae : I'm just saying -- MR. a : -- like, on, like, ont guess there would have been a court wo ct a - b 106 he he he EFTA00112013

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 production list that 2 WAB, With All Belongi 3 Ms. QM: Rig 4 access to that. Some 5 correctional services 6 FFE 107 would have said Reyes, ngs. ht. I mean, I don’t have of my staff have that box. Mm-hmm. 7 MS. a : And they do review it, 8 sometimes. But I'm not so sure we reviewed it, 9 anybody in my department. 10 MR. a : Yeah. And again, I know 11 you weren’t even -- 2 MS. a: Yeah. 3 MR. a : -- there, but so, should 4 have someone reviewed that? 15 MS. a: That’s not something that we 16 did on a regular basi 9 - we don’t manage han 8 MS. You 20 MR. a: 21 MS. EJ: as 22 looking all the time. 23 event happened, we mi 24 with that. And revie 25 when I get the Marsha know, we - custodial wise ds-on like that. Mm-hmm. we're not much. Like, I think now, since this ght become more involved w those things. Like, 1l’s list, I was, I look to EFTA00112014

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 make sure they don’t have any histories of 2 things, or there is a no Marshal’s notices. Mm-hmm. 4 MS. a: More so than ever now, we ies) a Ww oO oO Q wu c n i) kK oO c 5 i3) = 8 not something that is our job to review, and to the SHU list, and make sure ts) ct x i) =] Q 9 3 ue} ow 5 oO bh ct i=) is cell, you know, that is nN ive) 4 MR. ae : So, when Reyes was listed as WAB, and was removed from the institution on f fo] rt s oO OQ ie) i= 5 rt 5 i= 3 Oo oO i a) fw S Q oO it) kK _ ct fom im =] Q | | Lee) 5 | 1 n a oO c = jon someone have wo notified psychology? Now, this isn’t Epstein. 20 MS. EJ: 9 Right. 21 MR. ae : This is his cellmate. 23 MR. a : Reyes. 24 MS. a: I don't know so much as 25 notified us, but at least made - or I would EFTA00112015

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 think - someone would make arrangements to say, well, this guy is coming out, we’ve got to get someone in with Epstein. There would be no need to call psychology. Unless Epstein was demonstrating any psychological issues, because we were -- ve. I: okay. MS. a: -- following him as needed, and during our weekly rounds, anyway. So, if he displayed, if he didn't display any mental health problems, they probably wouldn’t just call us. MR. a : So, were there any problems, as you see them, that no one notified anyone in your department that Reyes was gone? MS. a: Well, the only problem is, if they had planned on housing Epstein alone, and not replacing Reyes, then we should have been consulted, and spoken to about, do we think MS. a: -- but that whole - not -- MR. a: But that was never EFTA00112016

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 changed -- MS. a: -- not likely -- MR. a : -- so, he was supposed to be housed with another cellmate -- MS. a: Yes. MR. QJ: -- so, the fact that his cellmate was gone, and he is supposed to be housed with a cellmate, should have they -? Should someone have contacted psychology to let you know this cellmate is gone, we need to get another cellmate in there? Is that something that you should be a part of, or is that something that was just custody? MS. a: That is mainly custody. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: That is mainly custody. Now, things are a little different. I mean, again, things are put into place. That may not have been in place before. Things we may not have been as involved with. with. Because of lessons learned. So, now, when they house anybody alone, they let us know, do you recommend this? Like I was EFTA00112017

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 w ~] wo 10 11 telling you, there is a sheet. Do you recommend this? And we always say no. vR. SR: r-on. MS. a: I tell my staff, never recommend a single cell. Like, if we think someone is going to be single celled, we are notified. Oh, this person is going to be -. Dr. a. come sign this, this form. But before, we didn't do that. Okay, when Epstein was there, we did not do that. MR. QJ: Okay. MS. a: If they had a plan to put him by himself, we would have been notified. The fact his cellmate was leaving, we wouldn't have been notified, unless the intention was not to replace him with somebody else. Because the intention was always to keep him in the SHU with a cellmate. MR. : Now -- MS. QJ: 31 think custody’s intention were, too. MR. ae : -- as far as people -- MS. a: It should have been. MR. a : -- that worked in the SHU EFTA00112018

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- or, for instance, anybody in custody, do you think there is ever an excuse, especially in this specific instance with Epstein, that for people to say, we didn't know he was supposed to have a cellmate. Is that - do you believe that that is an excuse? Or a reason, I should say. Not an excuse. And this is not, I'm not talking about psychology now. MS. QJ: §9=Right. MR. a : What I'm talking about is custody or -. MS. QJ: No. 1 know what you are saying. I mean, it comes from management and it goes down. MR. QJ: 9 Me-hoon. MS. a: You see what I'm saying? So, as far as I knew, the lieutenant up there, as far as what he had shared with me, is that he let the officers know. And that there was a sign up there, from what I understand, on their desk, that said he had to have a cellmate. Okay? MR. a : Now, did you ever see a EFTA00112019

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 sign? 2 MS. a: I did not see that sign, I don’t go behind that desk. When I go. So -- 6 MR. a : Because we knew that WwW o o Q fu c n o wi th 7 there was a sign stating that they had to do 8 It was a big orange sign. oO w =] ct | | i=) 11 MR. Ee : -- we have never come signs saying that he had to have a nN wu Q K ie) n n U U A WwW Qo o be be 3 rT] rt o Ae] it) bh jon 0) Fh K 2) 3 rt 7 oO very first day -- U f Co id a p. Q a cr 7 MR. ae : -- that he was actually 8 housed with Reyes. 9 MS. a: Right. But I mean, that is 20 something that is monitored by the 21 lieutenant, and the operations lieutenant. 22 They were aware because the captain was aware, 23 in executive staff. 25 MS. a: And the captain is under the EFTA00112020

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) warden, and the warden would have wanted him to have a cellmate. wR. QJ: Right. MS. a: A 100 percent. MR. a : Absolutely. MS. aa: And supported our recommendation for him to have a cellmate. So, where the ball was dropped, I'm not 100 percent sure. But I know executive staff were aware, and I know that was a strong recommendation on our part. Whether the officer’s, whether it went down the chain, that, I will not know because I am not in custody. MR. : Mm-hmm. MS. How -- MR. But didn't you say -- -- how they advised them, you know, the morning of their shift, this is what you need to do. I don't know. MR. QJ: «isn’t it something, though, that you guys discuss, or psychology its) discusses during training, saying that, hey -- MS. a: Well, yeah. MR. -- inmates that are at K isk for suicide need to have, if they are EFTA00112021

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 coming off -- 2 MS. a: Oh, absolutely. suicide observation. WwW a ' I 4 So, that is where I mean -- 5 MS. a: That is where -- 6 mR. RR: -- by, like -- 7 MS. a : -- like, the yearly training. 8 I mean, you would nk, you know, with the 9 yearly training, with the annual training, with 10 the SHU, there is also a SHU training, a 11 quarterly training that I teach suicide 2 prevention. So, I teach suicide prevention 3 quarterly, to SHU staff. Where I have a slide 4 show that talks about the cellmate, and the 15 need for the cellmate. So -- 16 MR. Ee : What about during their 7 annual refresher training? Is it also 8 discussed? 9 MS. a: Yeah. Also. Yes. So -- 20 MR. QJ: so -. 21 MS. a: -- it’s quarterly and annual. 22 MR. ae : And you say that 23 thing during the annual training? 24 MS. a: Yes. 25 MR. a : Okay. So, not only are 7] same EFTA00112022

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 the SHU staff getting it in their quarterly 2 training, but every staff is getting it in the ies) annual training. 4 MS. a: Yes. w a Okay. oO 7 MR. So, that is what I mean 8 by, is there ever an excuse, saying that we 9 didn't think he needed one? If they receive 10 this training, shouldn’t have they known -- a: Right. And also, I don’t 2 know, I mean, he inmate. I ive) think everybody was aware of that. F F Oo w BO ry rel i} ioe i} Oo 7 MS. QJ: -- if he didn't have a 8 cellmate, they would know, even if they thought 9 he wasn’t supposed to, they would know that he, 20 they should be rounding every half an hour, and 21 checking on, particularly a high-profile 22 inmate 23 MR. a : Now, does -- 7) ct wu Fh Mh .f) ingle EFTA00112023

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 w ~] wo 10 11 member of MCC, regardless if custody or not, do they take that annual refresher training? MR. QJ: So, Rap -- MS. a: They are required. MR. a : -- you know -- MS. a : Yes. MR. QM: Okay. MS. a: They are required. MR. a : Okay. Perfect. MR. a: Okay. “Dr. | never suggested a cell room with a camera for Epstein, because she wanted him to have a cellmate.” MS. a : I don’t make those decisions, as far as who goes on Ten South. Ten South is a high security unit where we house many of the SAMs inmates. I don’t know if you are familiar with the SAMs, but they are in Special Administrative Measures. On occasion, we have had high profile inmates, but that is at the discretion of the warden. Not psychology. Whether he wants to house a high-profile inmate up there. We had Bernard Mayta (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:19) up there. We had El Chapo (Phonetic EFTA00112024

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) 4 Sp. *01:30:20) up there. We had the Russian arms dealer up there for a while. So, we have had people there. But the warden - and I don't know why, because I was not in those meetings decided that he was not going to place him in Ten South. So, if you are not going to be in Ten South, you are going to have a cellmate. You know, as far as I am concerned. But I did not -. I was not -. It was not up to me whether he be placed on Ten South and a camera. MR. Ee : Was that ever -- MS. a: My recommendations were not sought. MR. ae : -- yeah. I was going to say, was it ever -- MS. J: No. MR. ae : -- even discussed with you? MS. a: It was told. It wasn’t old? I'm MR. QM: what w wu 7) rt MS. a: That he was not going on Ten 118 EFTA00112025

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co ho No w OFFICIAL South. MR. MS. be hous informe incarce incarce wasn’t dec was going t ine being on Nine USE ed there. Okay. That the warden had decided. nformed by legal. And I said, oh -- And when were you d that? Earlier -- that before? Wa 7] earlier in his ration. = . Yes . a: es. Okay. Earlier in ration, I received a phone call that he going to be housed in Ten South, that i ided, by the warden, that he wasn’t o put him up there. So, when I was old that, knowing if he was going to be South, then I would say certainly 119 EFTA00112026

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) suggest a cellmate. But I would have had no problem him being on a camera in Ten South. MR. a : Would you have a preference? From Ten South or Nine South? MS. a: If I was asked, I would have preferred, I would have said Ten South because oO I had been there for so long, and had seen so many high-profile inmates up there, and being on a camera 24/7. MR. a : So, you said psychology always recommends a cellmate, but in this instance, you would actually recommend him being housed alone with a camera on him? MS. a: I think having a cellmate is a good thing, but when somebody is this high- profile on other levels, in retrospect, it would have probably been not a bad idea. MR. a : So, in retrospect, and obviously, we can all Monday morning -- MS. BJ: = ves. MR. a : -- quarterback. MS. a: Yes. MR. a : And unfortunately -- MR. a : -- that is what we are EFTA00112027

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LIMITED ies) w co io ive) co OFFICIAL USE doing. MS. South Nine MS. h would y ou been more don’t Sure would have re I don’t make told. ght oO, , I was kay But it you know? as I know y want propriate o to those going to 121 you ver EFTA00112028

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I was told by legal. Which was the warden has decided he will not be on Ten South. They are going to house him on Nine South with Tartaglione. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: Let me finish that -- MR. es : Yes. MR. QJ: 9 -- (Indiscernible *01:33:20). That’s the last paragraph. “Rooms with cameras aren’t always perfect due to the guard having to maintain a constant eye on the camera screen. She noted she has never gone to attorney conference for any other patients or inmates. She believes MCC psychological services did all they could for Epstein. And ultimately, the lack of a cellmate, and under staffing contributed to his death. Three suicide risk assessments were completed on Epstein, which is unusual. One of those was completed due to a judge’s order.” Is it normal for a judge to request a psychological - ? MS. a: It is not uncommon, especially when the judge knew he had been on watch before. EFTA00112029

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 ~] wo 10 11 MR. QJ: 9 vn-hon.. MS. a: So, I think, I don’t think he was ordered the first time, to be placed on watch. I think it -. I don’t remember which time it was that the judge ordered it. But judges will, if there is, if they have ever been on suicide watch in the past, when they leave a court proceeding. If it was the time that he was denied the bail, I don’t know which was the time that the judge ordered it. MR, a: So, your -. MR. a : Would your notes say when MS. a: Possibly. Possibly. MR. a : Possibly. MR. ae : So, you don’t think it was the first time, though? MS. a: I thought the first time I did it precautionary. I don’t know if it had the judge’s order. MR. ae : Now, when you say there are three risk - suicide risk as essments were wn 7] included, completed on Epstein. EFTA00112030

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. Ee : Or Epstein. When he first came on, when he, on July 23rd, what was the third? MS. a: I think that is when he came back and was denied the bail. MR. a : And do you think that was probably the one that the judge -? Because obviously, you do it when they come on, right? And then, you do it if they try to attempt suicide. MS. a: Or maybe the judge -. I don't know if it was the first time. Maybe it was the first time. Because I think the second time was Dr. aa. Which I really complimented her on. I think she did it out of precaution, because of what happened in court. MR. ae : Okay. And that was -- MS. a: I think she did it on her own instinct. Not because she was told to. MR. QM: Okay. MR. a: Wait. I have an event that took place on August -- MS. a: Okay. MR. a: -- August lst. It looks like the correctional systems received a form from EFTA00112031

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 w ~] wo 10 11 the U.S. Marshal Service, the previous day stating that Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies. I guess he went to court. And he reported suicidal tendencies. So, the Marshal Service reported that to correctional systems, and correctional systems notified that to 17) psychological observations. Psych MS. a: That was August lst. MR. a: Do you believe that might be the third time? MR. Ee : That would have been, like, the day after he came off of -- MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. ae : -- psych observation. MS. a : Right. And they always put suicidal tendencies on every single one of them. So, I am thinking, because he was just coming off watch, he might have said, I was on watch. MS. QJ: But 1 don’t -. MR. a : -- you think the Marshals do this frequently? EFTA00112032

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LIMITED ioe) w io ioe) its) OFFICIAL USE MR. th have, nto of watch, MR. e third instance again -- jail. MS. m7 . Uv ot if he had and they were aware Kay. But you with -? Because we was was, Yup. jon | a D and he was mad. EFTA00112033

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE second time, Marshals -. I nH s wu Qo actually MR. MR. two from times. MR. your report, it I believe don't The that I know. Is kind of - 27 was when, maybe when the know. I don’t know. So, we know the two. I'm just trying to -- third one -- -- to figure -. was when he had, Yeah, Marshals -- -- I know. They are my I think the oth court. lst? On the August think I have to so. to look at my Yeah. No. EFTA00112034

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 o 1 was probably taking so long - it kind of jumps 2 really quickly from July 30th to basically the ies) i) nd. 6 I was wondering -- w 7 a: Okay. 8 MR. a : -- if we were miss 9 something there, and that sounds like maybe 10 that is what we Oo tal wu fio ' hh re) e& = wu 5 ct 1] Qo 4 ti) cr fe] 2 look at my notes, I could do that. ive) Fs) Do you know? Because 4 I think - 5 MR. a : I’1ll just -- F oO w | I rt ian fw rt = Bb b b J oO b ue] le ° c co this with you. I think we already did. This 20 HN? Sho is that? i the forensic 1) removed him from watch the EFTA00112035

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LIMITED ies) w co oO ies) oO tes) OFFICIAL USE MS. QJ: 9m-hon. MR. a : Just because we’re hological observation allowed giene products, two novels, to attend his legal visits, and to shower.” And as we already stated, he was authorized legal visits while he was on Okay. All right. MR. Ee : Yeah. MS. a: So, she did those authorizations. yk him off. and then, it says, and that part says, ‘ Ei stated she Now, when she ussed the decision to with Dr. | and associate warden z- a. “do you know which step down she is down Epstein talking about? she talking about wa toed servation? That’s what -- EFTA00112036

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL USE 130 -- okay. father than observation to SHU? MS. a: Correct. MR. a : Okay. And with =; warden a. is that a normal thing that she would discuss that decision? She ssociate wu would discuss that with an ass Is that normal? a call, just because he was who he was. We don’t do it with every single inmate. We send out a notification like, all executive staff. And every day, on who is on watch, he was removed from watch. An average inmate, maybe they wouldn’t have had a discussion. because it was MR. ae : And this is where -- MR. a : -- it goes into the -. knowledge that around this if 7 time, executive staff, or anybody at the EFTA00112037

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LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 131 institution, was contacted by either the it) wu _ Bp Q J 0) 5] ] o Q n ct Oo 2) o and put to so the attorn We never got a call like MR. a : And you don’t know t i - mentioned that to you MS. a: Not that I know of. concurred with her determination regarding wu B b ie) mh rt a 0) EFTA00112038

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 w ~] ive) MR. a: I have a few follow up questions. MR. a : So, this is the very end. MR. a : This is the very end. MR. a : It’s taking longer than we expected. MS. a: It’s okay. MR. a: When inmate Reyes was chosen to be Epstein’s cellmate after he was brought back to the SHU, do you know who was involved in that decision-making? MS. a : Executive staff, most likely. Or correctional staff. Probably the captain. The captain and the AW over programs. MR. a: And do you think that everyone, in terms of captain, the lieutenants, and even the SHU staff would have known who Reyes was, that he was Epstein’s cellmate? MS. a: I mean, I would hope that was discussed. But again, I don’t know if it was discussed with them. But the captain should have passed it onto the lieutenants, and the EFTA00112039

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LIMITED w ~] ive) OFFICIAL USE 1 wo ios) lieutenants should have passed it to the staff. MR. a: And based on the recommendation, as you mentioned, from your office and also through the chain of command, they should - everyone should have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? MS. a : Yes. MR. a: And if everyone knew Epstein needed a cellmate, they should have technically also known that his cellmate was Reyes? MS. a: I would think so. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: I would hope so. MR. a: And when they came up the, came up with the name, with the list of names to place as a cellmate for Epstein, did they have other names also chosen? Or just Reyes? MS. a: Hmm. That, I don't know. MR. a: Okay. You are not aware? MS. RJ: 9 Because I didn't make those decisions. MR. ae : Do you know if there -- MS. a: At the time. MR. a : -- was a plan, if he was to leave, someone else would go into his place? EFTA00112040

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 o r ou ct iu) 4 3 Be nv] rt bh Oo ny medications? ie) wu 3 I 12 his chart. 13 MR. SE: 15 MR. QJ: «Not that -. -- I don’t remember. I don’t f o = t fos] a wu bet 19 MS. a: I mean, from p 20 MR. Ee : I want to show -- 21 MS. a: I don’t remember. 22 MR. ae : -- we will jump into K ct ty wu + EFTA00112041

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Ww wi 1 minutes. 2 MR. a: I just had a quick question. 3 You mentioned that he told you the first time 4 that he had a bail hearing. 6 MR. | Do you recall him mentioning, 7 in your last meeting with him on Aug 8th, 8 that he was scheduled for another bail hearing? 9 MS I don’t recall. 10 MR He didn't mention that? Zz m7 a: I don’t recall. He may have. a: mz 2 3 MR Okay. 4 MS. He may have. I know he was 5 trying to get several hearings, so it is very 16 possible he did. 7 MR. a: So, what we have here is an 8 after-action review. It was conducted by the 9 Bureau of Prisons. 20 MS. Yes. 21 MR. ae: And I'm going through some of No No wi Bb OH c= | 3 & 8 Ss) wu EFTA00112042

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. a: Basically, do you know what an after-action review is? Ms. MMM: 9 yes. I do. MR. a : Okay. So, this was done by the team that was sent down to do on running Mr. Epstein’s death. And maybe the -- MR. a : Immediately after their death. MR. a: -- immediately after. MS. a: Okay. MR. a: There is a note. “On July 9th, 2019, at 12:35, health services completes a history and physical for inmate Epstein. This assessment was done in lieu of an intake screening, which should have been conducted within 24 hours of arrival.” It looks like he arrived on July 6th, but the intake screening wasn’t done for him. MS. a: That’s medical. MR. QJ: 9 That’s medical. Okay. MS. a: We did it the next day. We do them within 24 hours. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. “On July 18th, 30-day psychology reviews are conducted for the entire SHU population. Inmate Epstein was not in the 136 EFTA00112043

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 SHU at the time due to an attorney visit. The review was never conducted.” MS. a : He was probably seen in attorney conference, but it wasn’t conducted if he wasn’t in the SHU at the time. MR. a: Should they have followed - psychology - have followed up? MS. a: I would have to see my records. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: To see if there was a reason, or if we put in a note, subsequently. MR. a : Understood. And you said, the notification by the U.S. Marshal Service on August lst, you said that would be routine, if he came off of suicide watch or psychological observation, went to court, and they saw that, they would normally make a routine notification? MS. MJ: = They often do. Yes. MR. a: Okay. MS. a: Unless they are not privy to it. You know? But if they are, they would, to cover everything. MR. a: But you don’t know -- EFTA00112044

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] wo 10 11 wo oo MS. a: Yeah. MR. a : -- anything specifically he was doing on August lst, that would have caused them to make a note? MS. QJ: No. MR. QM: okay. MR. a: Now, I don’t have these documents in here, to show you, but it was flagged that, “The psychology intake screening contains errors in identifying details. Inmate Epstein is referred to as a black inmate, anda different inmate’s name is used within the report.” MS. a: Yes. One of the psychologists made an error. Perhaps. It was a template-ish error. I don’t know. MR. ae : Okay. MS. a: To be honest, it was probably a template error. She was probably writing it quickly, and when she proofread it, she didn't catch it. MR. a: Okay. “There -- MS. QJ: = vm-hon. MR. a: -- there are errors within the risk of sexual abusiveness report, such as EFTA00112045

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Ww wo 1 referencing an inaccurate program statement, 2 and noting a history of prior prison sexual 3 predation.” 4 MS. a: Okay. Again -- w ig H a] oo Pp. 1) ie] i) KK =] P- oa n o * Cc c uw Oo 6 aa: -- again, that is a 7 checklist It was probably a typo on the 8 checklist 9 MR 10 MS. It was 11 a seasoned psychologist. I don’t read every 2 single note that goes into the record. The 3 only time I read every single note is when 4 somebody is a probationary psychologist, and 5 unlicensed. And who was -- 7 MS. a: Then I will -- -- the psychologist? t oO a Lee) 5 time 22 MS. a: And I just think they were 23 typos. Looking back and having a conversation 24 with her, they were typos, but she is a 25 seasoned psychologist, a forensic psychologist, EFTA00112046

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and I couldn’t possibly read every note that goes in the record. Or else I would never sleep. But I read, you know, like I said, if they are unlicensed, on probationary, then I read all of the notes that go into the record. MR. a: So, it is not that PY didn't do the intake properly. It was just, it was a format that she probably used. MS. a: Yes. MR. a: Okay. Now -- MS. a: Definitely. MR. a : -- there is another incident, “July 16th, 12:48 p.m., inmate Epstein is seen by psychology in the presence of his attorneys, while conducting a legal visit. This visit recommended no follow up. This visit was at the request of inmate Epstein, that was wholly inappropriate. Inmate Epstein attempted to establish guidelines for communication, and bring his attorneys into the fray regarding mental health treatment be provided by the institution. It is not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to provide psychological intervention EFTA00112047

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in the presence of others, nor is it appropriate for an agency psychologist to meet with the inmate attorneys.” The summary they put on there is, “On July 16th, 2019, a psychologist met with inmate Epstein in the presence of his attorneys. This visit was done at the request of inmate Epstein, that appears to have been the purpose of airing grievances with conditions of confinement. This is a highly abnormal event. It is not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to provide psychological intervention in the presence of others, and agency psychologists should not - should neither provide mental health intervention in the presence of others, nor engage legal representation regarding institution operations or conditions of confinement. Although the specifics of what information the psychologists are unknown, any items shared could be viewed as an unauthorized release of information, both regarding inmate Epstein’s mental health treatment, and institution operational information.” MS. a: Okay. EFTA00112048

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Can you elaborate -? MR. a : What is your response to that, I guess? MS. a: I wasn’t aware -- MR. a : Do you agree with it, or MS. a: -- if one of my psychologists, or I went up one time, and I think another one of my psychologists went up, it was probably just to see that he was okay, and that he didn't need anything from psychology. So, the intention was to check on him. It wasn’t to breach any security, or it wasn’t to meet his demands, or anything like that. It was probably because he did spend eight hours up there, and it was more well meaning that we just probably just wanted to see if he had any needs from our department, at that time. Or on that one occasion, he was up there when that psychologist was conducting her rounds in the suicide watch area, and he wasn’t there. And she went up there to check on his mental status, to see if he was okay. MR. ER: ight. EFTA00112049

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : And who would have that one been? MS. a : I think it was Dr. ma that went up there on one occasion. And I think I went up there on one occasion. That’s when he made that comment to me. MR. : 0 e-hon. Ms. QJ: =oput -. MR. a : Now, so, what is your -- MS. a: I did not share -- attorneys. He stepped out of the room. Like, the attorneys were sitting at the table. And then, there is the door, and he walked up towards the door. And I just said, you know, I think when I went up there, you know, are you okay? Have you been eating and sleeping okay? I didn't discuss any intimate details of his childhood, or anything like that. It was kind of just, like, are you okay? Do you have any thoughts of harming yourself? Have you been eating and sleeping, or do you have any concerns like that. And you could see my notes, it would probably indicate EFTA00112050

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LIMITED ies) w wo i=) N ive) oO co ho No w OFFICIAL USE what I did ask him. It certainly didn't engage. doubt Dr. | did, be And any discourse with anything. I think his a comment to me, but I referring to, you would show me the contacts, a contacts, the actual si are referring to MR a: Yeah, MS. EJ: 9 well. MR. : Sy ve. QJ: «9 -- th there. MS. EJ: = mea MS a: -- tw there, and that was mor on his mental status. 144 was well meaning. I I don't know. I is cause she very rigid. his attorney about have to re, you know, nd the context. The te contacts that they they don’t -- eah. ey don’t list it on mean, so - n, thos oO ar oO - two -- o times that we went up e well meaning, to check EFTA00112051

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. Ee : Sure. It was certainly -. ies) a And not a discussion -- w oO a | ! oF J a 7) bh wo the BOP’s o Fh b- 5 ion pe fo] Q U s. This isn’t on ours. We are just Ww is) BO ee oO wu x | | do you agree with that 4 finding, or do you think that that is 5 inaccurate, the way have that? They 16 are saying that you should not have done that? 7 a: I would say it is 5 - SI 8 mean, now, in retrospect, if it could be fs) 9 perceived that way, it is probably not the best situation. However, circumstantially, this guy 21 was in the conference room from dawn until 22 And we felt a need to check on him, to 23 see if he was okay. So -- 24 MR. QR: «shat -. 25 MS. a: -- I would say we jus 7) rt EFTA00112052

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 probably weren’t aware that it wasn’t a good 2 thing to do. Ww id Oo fan wu wi aw Okay. aa: -- a good thing. 7 MR. a : -- and this prior to his 8 first suicide attempt, it looks like, on, it wo says July 16th. 2 So, that was probably just to 3 check on him due to our concerns. 4 MR. ae : Sure. 16 would not do that 7 perceived that way. But we weren’t aware that 8 that wouldn’t - that that was an unusual 9 circumstance. 21 MS. a: It doesn't spring upon us 22 frequently. We don’t have inmates that have 23 that kind of money to sit in there for nine No n 5 Oo ral wu k EFTA00112053

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. QJ: | Yeah. MS. a: You know? So, that has never happened before. MR. a : So, what, in retrospect, I guess, what should have happened? Should have you asked him to be excused, and seen him a private room? MS. a: I guess we could have done that, but that would have interfered with his, and he is paying his attorneys. It is just, I os) would have to probably consult on that further. MR. a : Has anyone -- MS. a: Because -. MR. ae : -- spoken with you about MR. ae : Okay. MR. a: You just mentioned something. You said it is highly unusual that somebody is sitting in attorney conference for that long. that not allowed for him? Was that not if) allowed hh or any other inmates? Was he the only inmate who was, that was allowed to? MS. a: I think he was the only inmate that had that kind of money. EFTA00112054

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) MR. QJ: Yeah. It’s -. MR. Okay. To pay an attorney for nine To sit in a conference room. You know, usually, they last about an hour. So, I had never seen that before in all my years in the prisons. But it is not like you can't do it. I guess if you have the money, and the resources to have different attorneys come, to cover your whole day -- MR. Okay. MS. -- then -. MR. : I just have one more topic, and then it is done. MS. a: Okay. MR. a: So, were you aware that Mr. Epstein was allowed to make an unmonitored phone call on the evening of August 3th? Ms. BJ: No. MR. a: So, on August 9th, it looks like he, his pack and PIN was provided to him, but it was never set up. So, he requested a phone call, and it looks like the unit manager EFTA00112055

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 took him to the SHU, brought back from attorney conference, and placed him in the shower. MS. HR: 9 vm-ho.. MR. SE: | e-hmn. MR. a: Plugged it into the legal line. MR And he said he wanted to talk Ms. QJ: 9 m-hon. to his mother. So, the unit manager dialed out the number. A guy answered the phone. He handed the phone, the phone over to Mr. Epstein. MS. GJ: 9 m-hon.. MR. QJ: And he left. So, Mr. Epstein was allowed to make the phone call. It was not monitored. And what do you think? Do you think that should have ever been allowed? MS. a: That is never allowed. That is not allowed. MR. QJ: §9=Do you think that played any part into what happened that night, being the fact that he was allowed to make a phone call, unmonitored, a phone call? Remember, he mentioned that it was to his mother. MS. QJ: 9 Right. EFTA00112056

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: But we learned that his mother has been deceased for a while. MR. a : This isn’t really for her to answer. MS. a: That, I don't know. MR. a : So, as far as, this is something that we skipped over in your interview report, though. It says, “On August 8th, 2019, Dr. | attended the SHU meeting. She couldn’t recall all who was there. But noted,” - so, this talks about that meeting, and it said that, “Epstein had received his pack number, which allows him to make phone calls, and he asked for his books from psychological observation.” So, are you aware that he actually did receive his pack number? Pack and PIN number, so he could actually make calls? MS. a: I probably was privy to it, if it was mentioned in the SHU meeting. But that wouldn't have any psychological meaning, other than he could make the calls, and they would bring the phone to his cell, which is what they usually do, and he can make the phone calls. EFTA00112057

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. Ee : So, you don’t recall if 2 he was actually provided a pack and PIN number ies) oO K =] ie) ct w co So, and you don’t know if nN 5 ive) it was actually - not only w yen a pack 4 and PIN number - but you don’t know if it was f o = That, I don't know. 7 MR. ae : Okay. Go ahead. co a And I don't know if it played 21 MS. a: You know, I don’t know. That is the last two. EFTA00112058

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: Yes. I mean, it would be highly unlikely that he didn't. I can say that psychologists, the difficult thing is that we are psychologists. We are not psychic. But the events leading up to it, too, that period of time, he appeared psychologically stable. But the information that he received, according to what I heard the night before, and all of that information being unsealed, and him being alone with his thoughts, and thinking that maybe, perhaps he would have to spend the rest of his life in jail, and that all of these high-profile individuals information was going to come out about them. Could he have, at that moment, just felt completely hopeless, and thought of ending his life? Yes. That is very possible. You know, that is very possible. Prior to me leaving, he wasn’t given any of this information, and he had a lot of hope, he had a lot of resources. Perhaps he thought, you know, maybe he could cooperate, or get some kind of a deal. I don't know what happened at that meeting. But having been in the prison system as long as I have been, and being a psychologist, sometimes when EFTA00112059

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 people get really bad news, and they feel very hopeless, and the opportunity is there. They will take that opportunity. So, yes. It would be highly improbable, you know, the way our prison is set up, that someone could have snuck up there and harmed him, in some way. The way that the tiers are and everything. So, I think the higher probability is that he did kill himself. MR. a: That leads to my second question. The last question. MS. a: Yeah. MR. a : Do you have any reason to believe that Epstein did not take his own life? MS. a : I have no reason to believe he didn’t. MR. a: Do you have any other follow up questions? MR. Ee : No. Is there anything that we missed, that we should know? MS. aa: Not that I can think of. Just that, you know, we -. No. Not really. MR. a : Okay. Great. We can't thank you enough. EFTA00112060

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 2 MR. a : So, again, it took longer 3 than we expected, but you were extremely 4 helpful. 5 a: Thank you oO oD Bb n cr i=" © a w a © agent, so if you have any questions or anything -- wo 7 i} i} Oo pa a ou 5 1 2 Qo > dn J tej ra) jon B 6 oO Q + b he = B rt > N a 4 o wu 4 tan i 13] Ps Kh ie) 6 ct fu w i 3 Q ‘ e) i. KK Ww ct B- =} o 4 MS. a: If there is anything else I 5 can do, or anything I can clarify, with regard 16 to the case, or if you want me to review some 7 notes, if anything wasn’t clear, because like I 8 said, I probably, to be more specific, if I had 9 those notes, I would know when the Marshals 20 came in, because it is kind of a blur to me. 21 It has been a few years. It was probably the 22 most traumatic yent in my entire career. 23 MR. a : Oh, wow. Yeah. a: You know? ho No Ww a U ie) ie ia} k ct i2) J @ fu ia ct io wu rt EFTA00112061

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 MS. a: So, yeah. 2 MR. a : Okay. Well, thank you so much for that. ies) 4 MS. Thank you. wi aw If anything comes up, or you 6 have anything that want to share, please, 7 reach out. Oo a ~ wu te KH ct 10 11:18 a.m. on Wednesday, October 11 This is Senior Special Agent FY | ti‘iz*@id 2 I am turning off the recorder. 3 4 5 16 4 8 9 20 EFTA00112062

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 8 Interview of JX I 10 : 11 Brcaren (ose OCCT 12 Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112064