PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 WR. QM: A01 right. The recorder is on. Today is Tuesday, June 15, 2021, and the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is Il , and I am a Senior Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office. And these are my credentials. MR. Okay. MR. This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see - is it Jermaine? MR. Yes. MR. HE, is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General investigation. Today's date is - again - June 15, 2021. This interview is being conducted at the West Side - within the West Side Administrative Building, second floor conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jerse Also present is DO) OIG Special Agent = and Mr. This interview will be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent Could everyone please identify themselves for the record, and spell their last RR ae ee RR i) PRR RP RRR Wonymnufw MmmenN rye Whe oO mn we APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: name? To start — Agent, , again, I am DOJ OIG Senior a This is D0) Special Agent This is BOP employee, MR. : All right. Thank you, everyone. And this is an official D0J investigation surrounding the circumstances of Jeffrey Epstein’s death, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DO) OIG? Yes. : Great. We're just going to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. I'm going to read it for the record. It says, United States Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis." “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00111830

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRPRPRRR SOW SW N Re ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO nm w WOoOntDWNSwWwrP 5 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnished may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver. It says, "I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” You can take a look at that, if you would like, and if you agree, you can sign where it says Employee's Signature. MR. (Indiscernible *00:02:57) copy of this. WR. GY: «This isn't what I wanted. Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I am going to sign as the signature of the Office of the Inspector General Special Agent. And I am going to print my name. Mr. , do you 7 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials of Mr. It says that he is the Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. Thank you, sir. MR. + Okay. MR. All right. And what is your current home address? MR. : MR. : Thank you. And what is your current cell phone number? MR. MR. level of education? WR. QR: =I have three years of college. WR. QM: «And where did you go to college? WR. QR: =I went to - I actually have my Associates Degree at Northwestern State University. WR. a. And where is that located? WR. WE: «That's going to be in : It is . And what is your highest =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr MY RRR er Pow OHnu Mmmenrr Ww WPM RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr mind just printing your name where it says Employee's Name? Sorry. All right. Right below it. Thank you, sir. And , can you sign that as the witness? MR. MM: Yes. This is Special Agent MMMM. | have signed as a witness. MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG form? : Great. Before starting, MR. MR. I would like you place you under oath. Can you just raise your right hand? Mr. , do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MR. : Ido. MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you just show me your credentials, for the record, to make sure that -- MR. : Here you go, sir. MR. -- all right. For the record, I am looking at the U.S. Department of 8 Natchitoches, Louisiana. MR. Great. And what was that Associate's degree in? MR. : It was in Social Work. MR. : Okay. Great. And then, what year? MR. | = believe it was 2012 or '13. MR. : Great. Thanks. Did you have any employment prior to the BOP? MR. Yes. I had worked almost two years for the Colorado Department of Corrections. MR. | at Okay. MR. : As a Correctional Officer. And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten years - well, nine years, 11 months in the United States Army. MR. a. Awesome. Thanks for your service. MR. + Mm-hmm. MR. : When did you work as a Correctional Officer for two years? MR In Colorado? MR. : Yes. MR : I believe the dates were from EFTA00111831

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP PRR RP RRP RR COND WMH a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 9 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 2005. WR. WM: Okay. Great. And then, you said you were in the - did you say the Honorable discharge? When you left, what was your primary responsibility? MR. : Basically, at that time, I was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical surveyor. "R. CM: Okay. Where did you say? MR. ir? MR. : The topographical? MR. : It’s a topographical surveyor And what was that? MR. : Oh, a surveyor. MR. : <= (Indiscernible *00:07:19) surveyor. Right. 11 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. WR. MM: AN] right. Great. And is it correct that you used to work at the MCC in New York City? MR. : That is correct. MR. : All right. And what were your positions when you were at the MCC? MCC, I was the Captain. . Okay. And from what dates were you the Captain? MR. : Iwas the Captain from September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all the way until June 25 of 2020. wR. QM: «Okay. Great. And then, was that your first assignment as a Captain? MR. : No. That was my second. MR. : What was your first assignment_as_a Captain? WR. ME: My first assignment as a Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC Brooklyn. WR. I: Okay. promoted, and went to MCC? MR. :_ Yes. Yes. MR. : And what does the MCC And then you got =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 10 Perfect. And E-4, E-5? VR. CE: | Okay. then, you_said a Sergeant. MR. :_E-5, MR. : E+5. All right. When was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of Prisons? wR. QM: 09/27/2005. No. 11/27/2005. WR. QM: «Great. And when did you graduate from BOP training down at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center? MR. MM: I believe it was March of 2006. WR. MM: Okay. We don't have to go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I mean, what positions have you held with the BOP? You don’t have to go into each institution. Just, like -. WR. WM: Right. I started as a five, step one. I’ve - with more responsibility - I was promoted to through six, seven, Senior Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline I'm sorry. 12 stand for? MR. BEB: | The Metropolitan Correctional Perfect. And located at 150 Park Row, New York, New York? That is correct. Thank you, sir. Asa Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor when you were at the MCC? WR. WM: It would be, at that point, at that time, we was transitioning MR. : Okay. MR. : So, I would, normally, I would answer to two people, which would be the AW of Custody, which, at that time, was MR. : Okay. MR. : However, we was transitioning when that incident happened. It was was the AW over Custody at that time. MR. QM: Al] right. So, when you are talking about that time, are you talking about August 9th and August 10th of 20197 MR. : That is correct. MR. : Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00111832

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ ae od rr 13 of I was stil) the Aw in charge of Custody at that time? :_No. She was not? Okay. . No. Basically, what it was - again - with the areas of responsibility had changed, Okay. -- to this incident. So, was going to be - even though hers responsibilities had changed as the AW over Custody, and Warden N’DiayeN’Diaye had appointed - or instructed - that Ms. = would then take over the responsibilities. But however, she was supposed to go on annual leave. MR. Okay. So, at that time, Ms. was actually there, as far as, she was still in that capacity when the incident happened. . : Okay. . : However, again, the previous question that you asked, normally, as my responsibilities, I would notify the AW over 15 MR. | ae MR. : Okay. Which you just said was - you went with | because she was on? MR. : That's right. MR. Okay. Have you since learned anything about, like, was that not correct? WR. QR: Well, what I realized is that, once the incident had occurred, AW responded to the institution, at which time her annual leave, I believe she cancelled her annual leave, and she assumed her position as the AW over Custody. a: spell her last name? vs. EP Yes. All right. How do you . Perfect. Thank you. All right. So, is it correct that you were interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DOJ OIG back when this instance occurred in August of 2019? wR. WE: That is correct. =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 14 Custody, and also, I would have conversations the Warden. MR. Okay. MR. : So, it would just depends on what the situation may be. So, if there was instances where I would run things through the chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was times that I would take direction directly from the Warden. WR. MB: kay. As far as, though, in this instance, if, you know, being that August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the first person you contacted when you were -- MR. Was . MR. : == correct. And that was because the other AW was out. Is that what you were saying? MR. a. My belief is that she was on annual leave, which was stated -- MR. : Okay. MR. : == that we had closed out on that Friday, that she would be starting annual leave. MR. QM: Okay. But the other AW was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? 16 WR. QM: «Great. I'm just going to go over the report that was written in response to their conversations with you. MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. : We want to just go over for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps that we've found, that we just need some clarification on. MR. | MR. : So, I'm just going to read it. And you stop me if there is anything that you find that is inaccurate. MR. : (Correct. MR. All right. So, “7a began his career with the BOP in Florence, Colorado in 2005.” MR. | ie MR. : “In 2014, he was transferred to the Metropolitan Detention Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, his current position, where he over -". Or sorry. MR. MM: Yeah. There's a lot missing in between there. WR. QM: Yeah, yeah. EFTA00111833

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD MmMYyrRe re Oo wc MR. . Right. MR. : So, it says, “In Brooklyn.” I missed this line. It says, “Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 2018, HE was promoted to Captain at MCC, his current position, where he oversees security for the entire building.” WR. MM: Well, yeah. There was a little bit missing there because, yeah, I entered on duty, and I started my career in Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. And that’s when I went to Pollock. FCC Pollock. MR. : Okay. MR. : And then, from FCC Pollock, from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from ‘14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And then, in '18, that’s when I assumed duties at MCC. WR. QM: Okay. So, they have - yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the MOC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you were promoted to Deputy Captain? That is correct. Okay. It says, ‘i 19 Correct. “Among others, MR is responsible for the following: Special Housing Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant "Is that correct? . : Correct. : “As an Administrative Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining paperwork, et cetera.” So, when you say an Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying whoever was Acting in the Administrative Lieutenant -- MR. : Capacity? MR. : -- position? MR. : No, I wasn’t. Basically, Administrative duties. The Administrative duties falls under the appointed SHU Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to be done daily, within the unit. Not just the supervision of the line staff that work the unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is done. wR. SR: | Okay. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr Re a 18 directly supervises approximately 13 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that all the Lieutenants at the MCC? MR. : Correct. MR. : Okay. approximately 125 to 135 line staff/Correctional Officers under his purview.” MR. : m-hmm. Yes. Well, you know, when they say that, what they understand is, is that, under Correctional Services, that was probably the amount of staff that was - again - in Correctional Services, as subordinate staff. However, my direct supervision would have been over just the 13 Lieutenants. MR. QM: Okay. There are 13 - oh, 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were saying GS-13. Gotcha. “ also sits on the Institution's Executive Staff, which also includes the Warden. [MM primary duty is to ensure that security protocols are met by his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy guidelines are being followed, as set forth by the BOP.” “And it has 20 MR. QM: Al] security protocols are followed. To ensure that inmates - or run rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To ensure that they're supposed to audit said rosters, to ensure they have proper accountability of the inmates in the unit. MR. a. So, I guess what I was etting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was = Was there a specific person that was the Administrative Lieutenant? MR. MM: Yes. The Administrative Lieutenant at that time was And do you happen to know how to spell that last name? MR. It’s . MR. : Thank you, sir. Lieutenant responsible for paperwork.” was that? MR. : Which was the Lieutenant (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:10). MR. : And ,» common spelling? MR. “An SIS And who Yes. MR. : Okay. “And Operations In EFTA00111834

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 21 Activities Lieutenants”. MR. Which are on the day of the incident? MR. Yeah. And would you like to see the duty roster for August 9th and August 10th? MR. MR. who it was? WR. WE: So, I believe the morning watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I just said her name. MR. + Hmm-mm. No? Okay. Do you know I can show you this. + Yeah. So, I'm showing you a duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well as one from Saturday, August 10 -- : Right. : -- 2019. MR. And you can keep them in front of you for the -- MR. : Okay. 23 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which was Lieutenant [MM. He informed me - or I guess he became aware of the incident, I believe, at 6:30 that morning. MR. Okay. And so, I already asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, “The Operations Lieutenant and the Activities Lieutenant are responsible for day to day operations and maintaining order for three shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility in the event of an emergency incident, such as fires, bomb threats, et cetera.” So, is there a - during these instances - was there an Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant? Yes. Who was that? I believe it was Lieutenant . : Lieutenant [? Okay. . + Mm-hmm. MR. : Was Lieutenant [i off that day, though? MR. Lieutenant Jj was, I believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 22 MR. MM: | -- for the interview, just so you can - we're going to talk about people - so you can reference the two. MR. Right. All right. So, it a here, it would have been [I . would have been the Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, MR. : Yeah. [i m- MMMM. Perfect. And what times did she work from? MR. MB: At that time, the shift they were working a different schedule. The schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. MR. : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. MR. :_ That is correct. MR. And then, I'm assuming there was another Administrative Lieutenant at the, you Know, when Epstein was discovered, and I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. Correct? MR. MBB: That is - yeah - that was the 24 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. MR. : Okay. MR. : They worked Monday through Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. MR. Okay. MR. : So, Lieutenant I was on military - he was on leave. He had military leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly drill -- MR. : Okay. MR. :_-- that he would attend. MR. Do you know if he was on leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. But was on the 9th? . | me see here. . : And you can just say, was he on the schedule? MR. Yeah. So, I mean, right here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, August 9th. And I believe that the SHU Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that Friday. MR. MM: Al) right. So, that would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00111835

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 25 Correct? wR. WE: That is correct. He was not there, no. MR. Great. And would his position have been, like, you know, was there someone that’s placed in the Acting role when he’s gone, or is -? MR. Normally, due to our staffing at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we tried to ensure that, you know, looking over the roster, to try to ensure that someone was within there, the supervising unit. But again, due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at the roster - I would try to place areas of importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. And at that time, that particular day, he wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- assigned. WR. GM: «And that post, like you said, isn't assigned on the weekends. :_No. So, Saturday. : No, it’s not. Great. 27 restroom, et cetera.” So, did he receive - and I know, it’s my understanding that he was, most days, in with his Attorneys? MR. Yes. So, most days, from the time that the Attorney visitation would open, inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, until it closed. MR. All right. And that’s where it says, “Epstein spent most of the day with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down as soon as the Attorney visit opened.” So, would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or Monday -- i... that’s seven days a week. : All right. So, was it almost every day? MR. ie day. MR. : Okay. brought to him there, then? MR. :_No. MR. : Okay. How would he obtain food? MR. That's -- MR. -- that’s seven days a MR. MR. And was his food RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS mre wh 26 VR. 80) right. “J advised that his staff provide special considerations for high-profile inmates, if deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In order to ensure an inmate is providing with proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate using several measures, including mental, physical, medical, psychological, and sexual assault victim, or predator assessments. Since different inmates are admitted with different criteria, appropriate housing varies.” MR. : Correct. MR. : All right. “i interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on approximately three occasions at MCC. All of which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor.” MR. : Correct. MR. “During the first instance, Epstein asked who he was, and responded by introducing himself, and explaining his position at the jail. During another instance, IM explained to Epstein the policy regarding meals during Attorney sessions, and made certain Epstein was accommodated with water, visits to the 28 MR. I: Now, as far as food, I know - and, like I said, it’s been a while - normally, inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. MR. Okay. MR. : They're provided water. They're provided to go to the bathroom. inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. However, I believe that he was offered meals from the vending machine. I'm not sure. : Okay. : Ican't remember as far as - MR. MR. because I didn't remember there was an issue with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, or to address it. I just can't remember -- Sure. :-- what was done. Would the Attorneys be n food? No, no, no, no, no. No? The No. : Okay. . : No. No. No. No. food would not have been allowed. MR. Okay. Outside EFTA00111836

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oe od eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 29 WR. MM: So, I can't tell you if he was actually getting a tray, during that time, I can't remember. But I do remember, there were conversations that - and I know we did something in order to ensure that the inmate was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. I can't remember. MR. Sure. All right. That's fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. Do you remember anything about the third visit that you made with Epstein? MR. The third one. So, that night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to It_was about 8:00 or so. 8:00 p.m. on August 9? : Okay. Correct. So, I was actually on my way, and exited, you know, went and talked to the Operations and Activities Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was leaving for the day. And when I reached the elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was being escorted out of Attorney visit by his 31 MR. | Okay. MR. : So, I said, make sure that takes place. I'm good with it. So, that’s when I got in the elevator, and I exited the institution. wR. QM: | A1) right. conversation happened with Mr. Epstein? MR. | it did. : Okay. And that’s the So, this , in front of MR. point where - okay, so, you did authorize that call to be made, from the SHU? MR. Yes. MR. Was there a certain line that they should have used? WR. WM: Yes. It’s a secure line. You have two lines. You know, you can plug it into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack that's just for inside of the institution calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, which allows those calls to be outgoing. MR. Would that be called a legal line? WR. MM: Yeah. It would be just an out. This would be a out, out. RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 30 Unit Manager. Okay. And who was that? Which that was, I believe, Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) Right. : At which time, I, you know, I said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed that when the inmate - we would reasonably attempt to always facilitate a phone call for the inmate, especially while him being housed in the Special Housing Unit. So, I said to the Unit Manager, Mr. _ I said, Mr. J, are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said well, are you going to be able to monitor the call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I got no problem with that. I said, well, I don’t have a problem. Just make sure that you follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, it has to be monitored by staff, and the number, and who they're talking to has to be placed in a log. Okay. Qut line. Sure. And they're not recorded oe ~ and that’s why you said nake sure that it’s -- Yes. -- and did you -- Correct. : -- did you tell him, at all, to document what was -? MR. Yes. I told him to ensure that he is present, that - the protocol is, because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make sure that you're present at the phone call. I said, make sure that it’s logged. And when you dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, stay on the line and said, he says, well, I want to call my Attorney. Who was your Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. When they answer the phone, I said, this is MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00111837

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO nm w RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP PRR RP RRP RR COND WMH a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 33 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what is your title? So, we can log it. Okay. And the time that it’s logged. And then, you give the phone to the inmate, and then you sit there while they’re on the phone. WR. MM: | And do you know if that was done? MR. :_ Again, I don't know. MR. : You don’t know? MR. : I just ensured. That's it. If you - like I said, that’s why I asked him, I said, are you going to SHU? And are you going to be able to monitor phone calls? But you don’t know if -- He didn't say yes. -- he wrote up anything? I don't know what he did. Okay. I just ensured that I told . : Sure. . : What needed to be done. . : And what would typically 35 WR. QR: It would be a green logbook. You know, and it would have the name of the inmate, and who they called, the number, the time. I don't know if the duration is on there. But it will the person who also monitored the call. So, you know, all that information. But it wasn't something, like, a form that was filled out, and then it was placed in the inmate's file. : Sure. Or central file. Sure. It wasn’t like that. And do you know if that log in the book was filled out? MR. I don't know. MR. : You don't know. Okay. When you met with Epstein on that night, how was his demeanor? WR. QR: | It was fine. cheerful. MR. a: He was cheerful. MR. : You know, he didn't look disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, He was =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) PRR RP RRR Wonymnufw 34 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. . That phone call? : Sure. Or that log? Like, after he documented it. vk. a: in a log. MR. i Okay. MR. : It wouldn't be brought for anyone’s review. You know? It would just be, hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And then, I can tell you, and look, when he was given a call. MR. MMM: So, it goes into a specific Epstein file? MR. : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It doesn't go ina file. It goes into a book. It goes into a book for monitored calls, for all the inmates, and legal calls. WR. QM: | For all inmates. just Epstein. It would be all -- MR. : That is correct. MR. : == inmates? Okay. It would be maintained, just So, not 36 And I man, I'm good. said, did you have a good visit? And he said, Everything is fine. yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all right, man. Okay. You know? No cause for concern? No, because every time we had that interaction, it was always pleasant. It was never negative. MR. —. Okay. It says, “J was made aware of the possibility that Epstein would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein’s arrival. was not present when inmate Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was fit for general population, and was ultimately placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places inmates under three categories of close supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological observation. And three: suicide watch.” MR. + Mm-hmm. MR. : Is that all correct? MR. : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00111838

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 37 WR. MM: Okay. So, who made the decision to place him in the Special Housing Unit, specifically, and why? WR. MM: Okay. So, basically, the rationale for placement of the inmate in the Special Housing Unit would have been a decision ultimately made by the Warden. They would have took the criteria of the inmate. They would have been, like, okay, well, what’s his risk? You know, what would be the likelihood of him being endangered if he would be placed in general population? His culpability. Can he cope while being inside of a general housing unit? So, the determinations was made between Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. MR. — And who was the Warden at that time? WR. It was Mr. J. MR. : And do you know how to spell that last name? It would bef- -- : Apostrophe. -- apostrophe, JE. Thank you, sir. Are It is an acronym. Okay. And that is not made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the Mtoe General -- Yeah. -- is that -? Okay. oli s going to be - yeah. thou That’ 5 > All right. Was there any discussion — placing Epstein in one of those units? MR. : Could he have been placed in one of those units? MR. : I'm sure he could have. MR. : But I mean, by executive staff, or would they had to have made a call to the -? WR. MM: =I believe they would have had to make a special concessions for the inmate. MR. aml Okay. MR. : They would have to, you know, vet him, and someone would have to approve it, I believe, outside of the executive staff at RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 38 there any other secure housing units within the MCC? MR. MB: © There is only one secured housing unit. That’s the SHU. Okay. Not -- But however, we do have -- -- Ten South (Phonetic -- Ten South. : Okay. And Ten South is for, I believe. those are for SAM inmates. And those inmates are under a specialized monitoring, which comes from, I believe it’s from the Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember who's the person that’s over it, but I believe it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes the determinations for those SAMS inmates. MR. MM: Okay. And what is SAMS stand for? MR. | = believe - I can't remember. MR. : Okay. But is it, like, S-A-M-S? MR. | is correct. MR. : Okay. Like, an acronym, 40 MCC. WR. MB: Okay. And then, that’s where I meant by, is, so the executive staff wasn’t able to -- I don’t believe so. -- independently -? We were not. : Okay. Were there many inmates “housed within Ten South at that time? WR. WM: No. I believe, at that time, we may have had a total of four to five. Of course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also had inmate - it starts with an §. I can't remember his name. But basically, these are inmates that have made crimes against the United States, which it was deemed that those inmates would be in that Special Management Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the general population. MR. —. Was this, like, a terrorist type of people? MR. : I would say some of them were terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00111839

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe MmMYyrRe re Oo wc 41 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist king pin, drug king pin. He couldn’t go ona general population unit. . : Sure. . : He would go - normally, guys like that would be in places where I come from, before, you know, like Florence. MR. : Okay. MR. : He would be at the ADX (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist threats against the United States, or there was guys up there that had materials, or that was found in cooperation with outside Agencies that was trying to determent of (Indiscernible *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United States. These kind of guys was put in that unit. MR. | a Sure. : Guys you wouldn’t want in the population because -- _ Yeah. . : -+ of their recruitment MR. general 4 WR. QR: Okay. “I advised that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid having one.” What type of behavior did he -? MR. I believe that Epstein and - when he first came in - he was doing self- manipulative behavior. You know, he was showing passive resistant activity, as far as, you know, when they’re taking meals, or wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when they're giving him direction. You know, he would sit in his cell, and he wouldn’t talk. You know, I believe he wasn’t taking meals at one point. He was refusing to take showers. Things of those that nature. MR. And the sentence continues, including requesting to see a Psychologist. 3 Is that part of it? Okay. logist? +I don't know. No? Did he say why he MR. MR. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 42 value, or their radical ability they could be able to do - have recruitment value for, you know, for other inmates in the general population. You don't want those guys in there. : Yeah. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you MR. MR. know, he’s a multi-billionaire. MR. Sure. Now, as far as Ten South. Is that one inmate per cell? MR. : Yes, MR. And video monitored at all times? Yes. Okay. maximum security type? MR. QM: That would be the highest security that an inmate at MCC would be placed . : Okay. . : Yeah. Could be placed in. Yeah WR. MY: But the executive team never discussed that? No. . | ae that, no. MR. : Sure. “At Epstein’s request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist.” Do you know who he made that request to? Would it have been SHU staff? MR. He probably would have made those requests to any of the staff that may have been monitoring him at that time. Because if he was placed on psychological observation at that time, psychological observation, you would have had to have a staff person that sat there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate couldn’t have monitored him. MR. Okay. like, 24/7? MR. MM: That would have been 24 hours of that. Seven days a week. . a. So, a staff member is . : Right. . : -- would just sit there and watch him? MR. : Correct. MR. : Communicate with him, or no? So, it’s like your And that, is that, EFTA00111840

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm MR. : Yeah, of course. MR. : Okay. MR. : I mean, and that’s, you know, encouraged. I mean, you know, and not have - you want it to - even though the inmate is placed in that situation, again, we’re talking about humanity here. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : You know, you want to gage this guy’s mental acuity. Meaning that, the inmate, you want to know how he’s feeling, how he’s doing. MR. : Sure. MR. : Is he improving? Or is he declining? Because if he’s declining, and you can actually see it, you want to contact somebody. You know, if this guy is in there being very, you know, belligerent, he’s being passive aggressive, or active resistant, or displaying signs of violence. You want to make sure you notify someone. You're not just going to sit there and allow this guy to do self-harm to himself and/or a staff when they come to the door, to provide his services. You know? Such as taking him to shower; providing his meals; 47 that's okay. “After some time, he was returned to the SHU. [J began hearing talk that Epstein was trying to get back on suicide watch.” : “Information like this is MR. MR. usually generated from rounds, kites -”, and kites are notes, correct? MR. : Correct. MR. And notes from inmates, specifically. Correct? MR. It could be - yes - that would be inmate correspondence. . Yeah. “And monitoring of phone calls and letters.” MR. : Correct. MR. So, the hearing of talk, that's all based upon inmate talk? MR. That would have been - all that staff. MR. | Okay. Staff, as well? MR. : You know, staffing sitting there, and, you know, especially when he’s on suicide watch. You know, staff are taking notes. So, it’s every 15 minutes, you know, RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP RR eo PRR RRP RRR Oo OUD wr mre reo Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 46 providing his medication or whatever it is. So, you just don’t want to just sit there and allow this inmate just, you know, if he’s going to be detrimentally could be harm to staff, or himself, you want to ensure that you notify someone. MR. Okay. “So, following this assessment, Epstein was initially placed on suicide watch. He was later interviewed again, and downgraded to psychological observation.” MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. Now, just for the suicide watch and psychological observation, where are they located? MR. MM: ©=Those would be conducted downstairs, on the second floor, in the Health Services area. MR. Correct? MR. | is correct. MR. : And that was prior to any attempt on his life or anything like that? MR. : That is correct. MR. Okay. Was that - ah, 48 staff is - oh, I'm sorry - every 30 minutes, I believe, I can't remember. It’s been a while. But, you know, a staff member - it’s every 30 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the inmate is doing inside of his cell. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : You know? So, you know, what is he doing? The inmate is facing to the right. The inmate is facing away from staff. The inmate is, you know, doing what, or he makes statements, those statements will be written in the log. MR. Okay. It says, “On or about July 23, 2019, Epstein was found unresponsive, on the floor of his cell, with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest.” When you say a “homemade piece of fabric,” can you explain that a little bit? MR. Okay. Basically, a homemade piece of fabric. It could be anything. Because it's out of the Special Housing, that’s what we're talking about. Right? MR. a. Yeah. I mean, I'm talking about specifically in this instance. Do you know what is meant by “found on the And that's outside of the SHU. EFTA00111841

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 49 floor, with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest”? wR. QR: It could have been fragments from a t-shirt. It could have been fragments from sheets. It could have been fragment -- MR. So, like, pieces of cloth :_-- cloth -- : -- that they could tie :_ It was tied together, or -- MR. : Sure. MR. : -- you know, (Indiscernible *00:41:14), to make some type of homemade fashioned -- MR. though, yourself? MR. +I can't remember. MR. : Okay. Sure. “Epstein’s cell mate had flagged the attention of a staff member, who handcuffed the cell mate, and removed Epstein, to bring him to the Medical Unit.” Do you recall, at that time, who his cell mate was? MR. MR. MR. together. MR. Did you see it at all, Tartaglione. 51 unconscious state." Or sorry. “Because he was observed opening his eyes and making other suspicious movements not consistent with an unconscious state. Epstein was medically assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed that his cell mate, Nicholas Tartaglione -”, T- A-R-T-A-G-L-I-0-N-E -- MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. : -- tried to take his life.” Was that investigated? MR. : I believe - no, I mean -- MR. : Sure. MR. : -- Ican't remember, but I believe a report of incident may have been done. MR. : Okay. MR. : And primarily, when a report of incident is generated - so, any time that an incident happens in the institution, I'm going to walk you through this. The Lieutenant that’s on shift is supposed to do the initial fact finding. The gathering of evidence. Okay? MR. | at Mm-hmm MR. : And all of these things. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RR i) ee cow onynn uw Sw 50 WR. MM: Okay. Great. And did you - all right. We talk about him in a little bit. “ heard from his staff that Epstein may have been faking unconsciousness.” Do you know who told you that? MR. : Well, basically, in memorandum, I remember when it was reported to me, and I made my report, I believe it was in the report of incident by Lieutenant . MR. : Okay. - ? MR. : | . And I believe that she had put out an e-mail, which concluded that the inmate was showing manipulative behavior through his statements, and what was observed by Medical staff. MR. Okay. MR. : So, basically, they were saying that the incident didn't occur as the inmate may have tried to make it look or occur. MR. PE Okay. And we're going to get into in a second. MR. : So. MR. “Because he was not observed opening his eyes and making other suspicious movements not consistent with an 52 then, they write a brief synopsis, and then, it’s put in a packet, and then, ultimately, SIS Department will investigate it, especially if we're having an assault, which would have been a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of another. So, pictures would have been taken. Clinical assessments of both inmates would have been taken. Witness statements would have been taken. All of these things would have been done, and it goes into an investigative packet. MR. Sure. So, — - Lieutenant | - would have -? MR. Would have been -- MR. Created it and provided it to SIS? MR. MM: © -- and would have created it, and for it to move on. MR. And do you know if there was any credibility found to the claim that Epstein made, that this other - his cellmate - had tried to take his life? MR. I don't believe there was any credibilit that was ever concluded -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- that that incident EFTA00111842

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 53 happened. WR. QM: And do you know anything about when he was initially found, if the homemade rope or whatever it was, was found around his neck, or it says in this, “On his chest,” anything with that, with, you know, do you know what I mean? Like, if someone was trying to hang themself, if it came on their chest, do you know anything about how that may have happened? MR. wouldn’t know. MR. I mean, forensically, I I'm not a -- Sure. MR. : == an investigator on that level. So, I can't really tell you the position of any type of homemade fashioned item that would be used to facilitate a suicide attempt, or -- MR. Sure. MR. : -- an assault attempt. That's not my level. MR. : Sure. MR. : Again, I'm trying to remember what it was, or what was used, but again -- MR. Mm-hinm . 55 assessment. So, that’s why Health Services helps us out, because the inmates don’t want understand that everything they're doing, or anything they’re saying, is being entered on that clinical assessment. MR. Sure. MR. : So, that’s where they were saying that he wasn’t - his actions may not have been what they should have been for a person that was quasi supposed to had been assaulted. MR. Sure. MR. : Or if he was supposed to have been unconscious, you was displaying this type of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn’t there. So, I don't know what occurred. I'm just going by what was - the information that was relayed back to me. MR. Absolutely. as Tartaglione -- MR. : Correct. MR. : -+ what was he in for? MR. : I believe that Tartaglione was responsible for - he was a former Police Officer, I believe - and I believe he had So, as far RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee PRR RRR Dw wr ed ool mel ro wo Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 54 MR. MM: = -- I don't know exactly. So, I can't really determine or give you that type of, you know, I don’t have expertise -- MR. : Sure. :-- in that area. So -. : But the information that MR. MR. was provided to you suggested that he tried to take his own life, not that the cell mate tried to take is life? MR. Correct. That it was inconclusive that the inmate had - inmate Tartaglione - had tried to kill this guy. Or tried to do any self-harm to this guy. So, you have to - so, like, you have to take an advantage because it’s one inmates’ word against another. MR. Sure. MR. : So, when the investigation comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would have been interviewed; inmate Tartaglione would have been interviewed, at which time, you would have took those statements, you would have waived, and then you would have took into consideration any witness statements, or anything that was observed during the clinical 56 killed four people, and then he buried them, buried the victims somewhere up near Otisville Prison. I think that's what it was. Back in the day. MR. : Okay. . : Yeah. Something like that. MR : So, he was actually in for murder though? MR. Yeah. It was murder. He was in for murder and whatever other stuff he was doing. : Okay. : Doing in his capacity as a MR. MR. Police Officer. MR. And who selected him and why? To be E stein’s -- MR. : Who selected him? MR. : -- who selected him to be Epstein’s roommate, and why? MR. I don’t remember who vetted Tartaglione. But what I will tell you is that, even though Tartaglione had a murder on his jacket, Tartaglione also was an inmate that had issues being in general population. You understand what I'm saying? EFTA00111843

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 57 VR. SY: | Mm-hmm. Former Police Officer? WR. WE: Former Police Officer. He had issues - because I’ve dealt with Tartaglione at Brooklyn - so, he was up on one of the Units in Brooklyn, and he had issues with those inmates in those blocks, where they're made for people who are sex offenders. For inmates that have issues with - when they go to population - general, they can't cope. Formal law enforcement. These type of guys are in that unit. So, you don’t really have that much issues in those type of units because these guys are going to do their time, or await their sentencing, and then move on. So, you don't really have a lot of violence. But this guy was always, always in the mix of something. MR. > Mm-hmm, MR. : But we couldn’t put him on the general population unit, and you just can't throw him in SHU. You know what I'm saying? Just because. You just can't. So, in Brooklyn, we had the ability to put him in - I think it was in K82. I can't remember. When he goes to MCC, you know, they don’t have those at MCC - that were facing murder charges. There's a_lot_of them. MR. : Sure. MR. : Hey, I mean, if they're in SHU, that means they can't cope on the outside. They can't cope in the general population unit. So, we would look at him just like another inmate. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. :_He never hurt another inmate. MR. : And that was going to be my next question. So, he wasn’t known to assault anyone? MR. : Bro, he never assaulted another inmate. MR. : Okay. MR. : Yeah, he got a murder beef, okay, that’s fine. But guess what? He never hurt any other inmates while incarcerated. WR. WM: Sure. So, taking, though, that he was incarcerated due to murder, though, and that Epstein claimed that he tried to murder him, do you think that - do you believe that there was any credibility to that claim? a CWO HUDMS fWwrNP RRR PR Swr re RRR RR Wwonmnu mnmry Le mrer WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP PRR RRP RRP RRR WeonyDwVfwrNro mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 58 type of units. You know? So, he would have to go in general population, or he would go to SHU. So, if the inmate fails the program and said I'm not going to population, you can't force me. So, when you do his assessment, his Unit Team does the assessment, Psychology does their assessment, Health Services does that assessment, and say, well, hey, this guy is clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded him to go. But the inmate said, well, you know, I'm a 306. 306 is refusal of programs. I'm not going. So, put me in SHU. So, that’s how he ended up in SHU. MR. —. Sure. already? MR. : Yeah. MR. : And do you believe he was a good placement for Epstein? MR. MBM: Well, at the time, again, you would have to be mindful, we don’t - how could I put this? - inmates are not placed in cells based on race, or - but however - or gang affiliations, all of these things that, you know, but however, you vet inmates. So, you say, okay, well, you have guys up there that - 60 MR. MM: 9 Again, what I will say is, is that I will tell you, like you said, my statements before, that it was brought to my attention that inmate Epstein was doing manipulative behavior, kind of testing the water to see what he could get away with. MR. : Sure. MR. Being his initial incarceration. Probably not too familiar with being in jail, but however, he’s a smart guy. He kind of figured out what he could do, in order for him, one) not to go to GP; two) try to get in SHU and try to get a cell by himself. That's kind of where he wanted it to go. MR. So then, he wanted to be in wt Ae hinself -- Of course. “ : == and that may have been why he -- MR. : Yes. MR. -- said that -? Okay. So, you believe that he made the claim against Tartaglione because he wanted a cell by himself. WR. QM: «That's in my belief, after So, he was in SHU EFTA00111844

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 61 looking at everything, and everything that was done, I believe so. I think that would be accurate. WR. MMM: Okay. It says, “He was placed back on suicide watch for approximately one week.” So, that happened the 23rd, and it brought him up to about July 30th. Is that correct? MR. | ae Correct. MR. : Of 2019. “Unlike his first and previous placement on suicide watch, Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies reported in his incarceration history. The staff was tasked with determining whether Epstein was in fact suicidal, or using manipulative tactics to avoid assignment of a cell mate. After suicide watch, Epstein was placed on psychological observation, and eventually returned to the SHU.” Now, again, and just to go back, this Ten South thing, that didn't never - were Lieutenants bringing it to you? Like, hey, he should be on Ten South? MR. : You don't recall any Lieutenants saying that? 63 WR. QR: That's put on an inmate just like - I will give you an example - sentencing designations. ? That's their job. They’re going to do, say, what Security level inmates, what type of prisons they go to, if they're a transgender, you know, all of these different things, all that stuff is going to come from that Central Office, to say, okay, we looked at this particular inmate’s history, or PSI, and we feel that this identifier needs to be placed on this inmate. So, a SAMS identification, or moniker, put on an inmate, executive staff can't put that on there. MR. : Sure. MR. : That's going to come from Central Office. WR. QM: «Okay. So, although a Lieutenants may have thought -. MR. : They may have - yeah - they may have thought and said, yeah, due to, yeah, his situation, of him being a multi- RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr MRRP RRR Re Pow aOAUTH nm i) mre re WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP RR eo PRR RRP RRR Oo OUD wr mre reo mre wh MR. MM: That wouldn’t be a Lieutenant's purview. MR. : Sure. MR. : A Lieutenant, most of the people - and then, I will tell you, I didn't understand SAMS placement until I became a Deputy Captain. MR. : Okay. MR. : All right? And I understood that, you know, these guys, you just can't put a guy as a SAMS. That identifier, that’s an identifier that has to come from Central : Okay. BOP Central Office. So, if a Lieutenant - so, if we're talking Lieutenants, and they're saying, he should have been in Ten South -- MR. : Well -- MR. : -- but they don’t know what they're talking about, basically? WR. WM: No. Because that identifier - because I believe you know this - it’s an identifier. MR. a. Mm-hmm . 64 billionaire, or whatever, or due to his issues of his proclivity to sexual deviances, and all of these things, he wouldn't be a good candidate to go to GP. But guess what? That responsibility, that identifier, that moniker should have been put on Epstein before he even came to MCC. MR. MMM: Sure. So, do you know if this is something - obviously, it sounds like it would have been out of your hands - would that be something that the Warden would discuss with, what? The Regional Director? MR. MM: That's right. The Warden would have had that discussion between SIA, the Regional staff, and also, it goes to the Region, the Central Office staff over Correctional Programing. ME. iy . : And designations. . : -- involved with any of I would never be in any of those conversations. WR. MR: Okay. And you were never Fair enough. So, EFTA00111845

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65 who would be the two to - I guess the Warden would be the right person to go back to and just say, hey, did this ever come up in conversation? MR. + Right. MR. : Okay. Okay. It says, “At the direction of the Warden, initiated the process of compiling possible cell mates for Epstein, vetting them and submitting candidates to the Warden for his review. P| and his staff fully screened potential cell mates, and reported their determinations up to the Warden. Efrain Reyes -", E-F-R-A-I-N, R-E-Y-E-S, “- was selected and housed in a cell with Epstein.” MR. + That’s right. MR. : And it says, “The Assistant Warden,” but I'm assuming they mean the Associate Warden, “Warden and Regional Director were notified.” MR. : Okay. This is how that went down. Mr. sat with me - not with the AW present - and we wanted to - we started talking about security protocols, moving forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That’s with me and Mr. , we had this discussion. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because like I said earlier in my statement, even though the AW would have been my next in succession, as far as my Supervisor, however, I did have conversations directly with the Warden, as far as for security situations (Indiscernible *00:57:32) in the institution. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, we sat there, and he wanted me to compile names, and vet inmates that would be possible good candidates as a cell mate for Epstein moving forward. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, I brought a compiled, I believe I had ten names, and he and I went through those names, we brought it down to three. Then those three names, Mr. J - because I sat there - when he called the Regional Director, on the phone, and he and the Regional Director vetted those three names. MR. : Sure. MR. : And then, I sat there, and I was privy to that conversation. I sat there, 67 68 MR. QR: © -- as Epstein, I believe, or I can't remember. WR. MM: Okay. Was he - when he was being vetted - was he close to, like, a release date or anything like that? An anticipated release date? MR. MBB: No one knew that. Because this is what you need to understand about MCC. MCC and MDC are basically jails. They're not prisons. MR. : Sure. MR. : It’s a jail. So, that means if a guy goes to court, you know, you get locked up, and then, the next day, you might go to court, the Judge might say, no, I'm releasing you. We don’t know. MR. : Sure. MR. : The only time we'll know is when the inmates come back from court, where is this guy at? He was released. MR. : Gotcha. MR. : Okay. Now, we got this guy still in our count. So, if they don’t bring a transfer order, our count is bad. So, they're going to bring the transfer order back with PR PSoOwmn DH wr P a rPowon4Dnuw Swrr RR wr RPRRR Ww = Wh i — RR a rR ~ RPRRR oN Du MmMNrNrNrYre SewWwNr Ow 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 nm Ww and he gave them, and he faxed him the whole makeup of all three of them, and the Regional Director said, no, I want this guy. MR. : So, the Regional Director . Yes. . : -- ultimately made the decision? MR. | MR. : So, give me a little background on Reyes. What was he in for? WR. WM: I believe Reyes was a Hispanic, older male. I believe that particular inmate was in for - I think he was in for child - some type of sexual stuff. I can't remember. HE: Sone kind of a charge MR. MR. + Charge, dealing with -- MR. : == sexual -- MR. : -- with, you know, those type of charges, sexual -- MR. : So, a similar type of -- MR. :-- similar type of charges -- MR. : == charge. RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RR ae ee RPRPPPPE wewre Pr RRR R wm ew Pr RR an Re a rR ~ RRR ‘oo ~ mre reo mre wh ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc nm => nm w EFTA00111846

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRRRR SOD Se Wwh 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 69 them for court line. These guys got released. So, normally, court line is over before 4:00. So, we try to get these guys up. Do some inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do. But however, we don’t know if an inmate goes out to court, if they're coming back. WR. = Sure. MR. : However, there is times when they put out a roster, and it’s given to - as far as all Correctional Officers that work the units, and it will say, court line, inmate Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That means that he has to come downstairs with all belongings. So, if they say it, that means he’s not coming back. That's either he’s transferring to another BOP facility, or he’s going to be released to the street. MR. Okay. MR. : But I can guarantee you that that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes was on that day, it didn't say WAB. Because it would have said WAB, the first thing that that OIC should have said, that’s my orange tag guy. Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, and I made them put them up on the board. 71 get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to when I disseminated down to the subordinate staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about what his charges are? : Sure. : Or since he's sensationalized MR. MR. in the media. Nobody cares. MR. Of course. MR. : We're going to manage him appropriately. Because if you know anything about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn and MCC, we don’t run those jails. The court runs those jails. MR. : Right. MR. : So, and that’s the truth, the court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says goes. So, and that’s unfortunate, but that’s neither here nor there. So, Mr. wanted the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, he has certain charges, but we’re going to make sure he gets everything that all the inmates get when they come to MCC. The inmates are going to get proper care. The inmate is going to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. Whatever it may be. But however, after those a CWO HUDMS fWwrNP —— COUT fwr re mre nd MmmrenNrn Ww WPM Wey DHfwrP PRR RRP RRP RRR WeonyDwVfwrNro mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 70 Epstein is that orange tag guy. He’s supposed to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU Lieutenant wasn’t there. But he would have called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don’t have a cell. MR. Yeah. So, how long did it take to vet? You know, I know you said you started it with ten, and then it brought down to three, and then the Regional Director ultimately decided the one. But how long does that process take? MR. I believe it took - I'm thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took a day. MR. Okay. MR. : I mean, we actually went - and, you know, I don't know - I know either the Warden and I was having a lengthy conversations, because the Warden wanted to ensure - Warden philosophy when dealing with Mr. Epstein was this: he’s another inmate. > Mm-hmm. : And what he tried to try to MR. MR. get across to exec staff, and what he tried to 72 situations with Epstein where it showed that his behavior was manipulative, when it shows that he was trying to get things for unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to get anything that would benefit him, we had to take some different protocols. We had to take a different - they had to take a different -- MR. : Approach. MR. : -+ mindset with this guy, or the way we managed him had to change. Because we already had this guy saying that he was going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, moving forward, we put protocols in place that will protect_us, as an Agency. MR. : So, speaking of protocols, was it discussed, then, when you were vetting these, hey, we have inmates constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is moved, one of these other two that were down to the three would be moved in with him? Was that discussed? WR. QR: No. He would just basically - because like I said, again, at MCC, you wouldn’t know how long the duration on the EFTA00111847

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc inmates stay. MR. Sure. MR. You wouldn’t know. MR. So, you just have to start the vetting process -- Press it -- -- over again? -- all over again. Okay. . Whoever is available in the unit, that may be single-celled, because as you know, our policy and protocols in the Bureau of Prisons are dealing with restricted inmates, and Special Housing Units, they cannot be celled alone. And -- : They must have a cell mate. MR : -- in the Special Housing Unit, ever one must have a cell mate? MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. : Oh, I didn't know that. So, every single one needs to have a cell mate? MR. Except - except, because it’s one of the areas that we didn't discuss, outside of Ten South - there was a range that 75 that, if they was put with another inmate, inside of the Special Housing Unit, they would die. MR. | ad And was part of that -- MR. : They would be assaulted. So, we would have to make those considerations. So, the protocols of how we dealt with inmates, according to their situation -- MR. Mm-hmm MR. : -- I believe it was sound. But guess what? You can only - you’re like the coach - I can make the game plan, but if the players are not executing the game plan, whose fault is that? Is it the coach? Or the player? MR. And exactly, and that’s what we're doing here, we're Monday morning quarterbacking. We're just saying, like, all right, this is - and that’s why we're going back through it. So, “The Warden directed on multiple occasions that Epstein needed a cell mate at all times, and verbally informed his Lieutenants the same. repeatedly directed his SHU Lieutenant - Lieutenant - that Epstein needed a cell mate at all times. Additionally, RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 74 was meant for - it was, like, a stepdown from Ten South, that only had one man cel] occupancy, which was on G-range. MR. : Okay. Was that part of the Special Housing Unit? MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. : So, there is a part of the Special Housing Unit that is a one-man occupancy, and -- MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. : == another part that has two-man occupancy? MR. _* is correct. MR. : Okay. And Epstein was housed in the two-man occupancy? MR. | MR. : Was it ever discussed to put him in one of the one-man occupancies? No. : No? : Because all of those cells were filled with inmates that were vetted, that needed that type of supervision. MR. : Okay. MR : You had inmates in there MR. MR. MR 76 visited the SHU on multiple occasions, and directed staff to be very alert and attentive about Epstein’s special accommodations.” So, when you say that about the SHU staff, did you also inform the SHU staff that Epstein needed to have a_cell mate? Yes. Oh, so, they all were -- Yes. -- were aware? Yes. Can you look at the - so, of August 9th and the very early morning hours of August 10th - can you just list the people and let me know if you informed those people? MR. So, basically, my hours of work were normally from - let’s just say 7:30 to 4:00. MR. Sure. MR. : So, I ensured that it wasn’t within one week, but it was a process of doing rounds. So, I try to hit every shift. MR. aml Sure. MR. : So, I hit the day watch EFTA00111848

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oll ood Wher © Wo 77 because that’s the one I work. Evening watch, I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys, this is the situation. Let's make sure that, you know, we’re paying attention. And then, morning watch, of course. Okay. So -. So, beginning at 8:00 m., then, on August 9th, can you just look to who - and name the people - can you just name who was in the SHU, and if you've ever had a conversation with them, if they were aware. MR. : Okay. Let me see here. Well, we had I’ve talked to Perry Joiner (Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was in there. = was one of the guys that was up there as a Rec Officer. So, all -- Him. . -- all of those people were, you had conversations -- MR. 1 Yes. MR. : == specifically with them, and they know? MR. : I've talked with these guys. but it’s less labor intensive. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because, in my opinion, from when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing was always hard work because I'm going to tell you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I mean vigilant, you have to understand, when you're working that Unit, anything can happen. It could be quiet. But guess what? If you're not walking, looking in those cells, testing the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, sometimes doors was unlocked. MR. > Mm-hmm, MR. : Or flaps opened. To chase doors, those -- What is a flap? -- the Food Service flap. Okay. Sure. . You know? Making rounds. Making sure the inmates are not - have coverings up when you open up the - what do you call it? WR. GM: | The window? RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 78 MR. MM: Absolutely. Can you just name the other people for the shifts after him? I think they just -. MR. : You got - now, M. Thomas. M. Thomas, what you need to understand is, that he would have been - because, you know, like I said - overtime. Non-custody. He's non- custody staff. I don't have conversations with him. WR. Okay. . : So, that mean -- . : == may not have known? Dose right, because realistically, the morning watch and evening watch shift, people don’t like to come to work. MR. _ Sure. MR. : So, they - if you sign up for overtime, you say, oh, SHU two is open. Okay. I'll take it. But you’re non-custody. So, that means anybody can work it. A teacher. A Food Service foreman. MR. MM: «Is the SHU easier to work than the other units? MR. MB: =I wouldn’t say it's easier, 80 So, Michael Thomas MR. BM: The windows or putting a towel over their beds, and blocking the light from you being able to observe them. But then, how -- And what I said about -- but how - > -- but I want to go back because I know about the statement, about the doors being left open. I'm talking about more in general population, as far as when you're making rounds, those type of things, you test. Making sure the door is secure. Making sure the food slots are secure. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : As an Officer coming up, even as a Lieutenant, do you know that I've actually walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that’s supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide capacity. Wow. Ever at the MCC? Because that wasn’t my Sure. That wasn’t my job. But as a Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a EFTA00111849

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oe od eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 81 Lieutenant making rounds, that’s what I would do. When I hit a unit, it wasn’t just to talk to staff. I would walk in and look at the Security protocols in the Unit. Is their fire extinguisher there? Good. Your phone work? Computers work? Hey, let's walk the block. Pulling on doors. Pulling on food slots. Showing - trying to train the Officers. : Sure. That’s what I used to do. Lead by example. And guess what happens? You would find stuff, because people in hurry enough to go home on that evening watch, them inmates know their doors are locked. But they know they're not going to come out. Because if they come out, there's a situation. But they’l] sit_up there and leave it open. MR. —. So, back to this, though. Can you look at the other SHU on, you know, the subsequent shifts, if you had conversations with them? So -- So, Thomas, no. -- so, Thomas, because he 83 inside of the Unit, you know, he was in charge of ensuring those Sentry rosters was updated, to ensure that the accountability of the unit was correct, to make sure that the inmates were placed in their proper cells. Who was this? I'm sorry. Hold on. MR. And so, in the SHU, we want to be focusing on? WR. HB: T. Noel. the -- MR. MR. T. Noel was one of And that’s Tova? -- now, I know Tova. MR. Yeah. MR. Now, Tova, I can't remember if I spoke to Tova. Tova - exactly. MR. : Okay. MR. But I know that I had hit all three shifts. Meaning that, day watch. I was always up there on day watch. Evening watch. I stayed over because that’s what the Warden wanted. He told me. Hey, make sure you go and hit all three shifts. The Warden told me to do it . So, if the Warden told me to do it, why wouldn’t I go do it? a. Sure. MR. RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 82 would have just been on there. Mr. Washington. Yeah. I’ve talked to Mr. Washington because Mr. Washington would go between evening watch, because I would talk to him. Clyde would work evening watch, so I’ve talked to him on evening watch. He was working morning watch because these guys, it was such short of staff, that these SHU guys was working back to back shifts. Or staff. It didn't matter. People who wanted money, or wanted to, you know, they would sign up for overtime. So, Clyde Washington was one of the regular SHU staff on the evening watch. Yeah, so, I talked to him. Percy Joiner. I talked with him. would go between the three, and also the OIC, because he had the most knowledge out of those guys. So, sometimes, he - even though he was the three - he was the one with OIC duties. MR. Officer-in-Charge? MR. MR. MR. rosters. MR. : The Warden -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- we sat down, he said, these are the things that I want to happen. First, I want you to make sure, walk through, talk about, make sure the staff is aware, (Indiscernible *01:13:53) are doing this, this, and this. And also, I know that you have - that I put out an e-mail. So, I just didn't tell them_- what do you call that? - by -- MR. So, you sent an e-mail to all the SHU? MR. MM: Yes, I did. To all Correctional Services staff. And I think I still got_it. And OIC stands for Officer-in-Charge. Okay. So, he was doing all the When it was time to move inmates To all Correctional? Yeah. I still got -- Did you ever provide -- -- that e-mail. : -- that to anyone? Huh? Did you ever provide that to anyone? MR. MMM: No. And they never asked for it. EFTA00111850

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 85 WR. GM: «Can you absolutely provide that to us? MR. Yeah. I think I have one, and we can go to my office, so I can show you. I don’t want you to think I - I will bring it up for you. MR. So, would have this Michael Thomas and Tova Noel been on that e- mail? WR. WB: Tova would have been, because he’s a Correctional Officer. But not Thomas. Okay. You understand? Okay. But however, what we did was WR. QM: «I thought everyone was considered a Correctional Officer. That’s not the case? WR. MM: As far as when emergencies happen. : Okay. : When emergencies happen, MR. MR. regardless of what your discipline is, we all come together, it means you going to - 87 difference between close supervision - what is it? - suicide watch. MR. observation. WR. QM: And psychological. There's no such thing as psychological - and that you know now - there's no such thing. It's called close supervision. There's no such as psychological. That was an MCC thing. MR. Okay. MR. : That they made up. So, it’s a close supervision and/or suicide watch. MR. —. So, you have at least one e-mail, though, that you sent to Correctional Officers saying that Epstein needed a cell mate? WR. QB: It wasn’t saying Epstein, but I do have two. I think I gave one e-mail and one memorandum that I wrote for the 583 packet for Epstein. I think you may have that. I don't know if you have it. And then, I have wrote another one about the important of doing 30-minute rounds in the Special Housing Unit. MR. Okay. Yeah, if you can - after we're done - either you can send it to Psychological RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) RPRRRR UD in ew 86 everyone, when you came in the BOP, everyone was given the opportunity, that when you went through Correctional - those tactics that you learned in Glynco, it was about being a Correctional Officer. It wasn’t about being a Dentist, or being a Chaplin, or whatever. It’s about Correctional principals. MR. Okay. MR. : Introduction to Correctional principals. MR. But as far as there is an e-mail that just the people that are working in the Correctional Officer -- Yes. : == okay. And I can show that to you. Perfect. I have that. Awesome. Because it wasn’t just me em. I put out guidance, and I kept putting out guidance. It wasn't like it was one time. I talked about inmates being placed on suicide watch. I talked about inmates putting on there - what is the 88 me, or you can give it to me. MR. I can give it to you. going to give you a copy. . Perfect. Mn-hmm . All right. Then just -- And so -- . : -- I think there’s a few more. Like, I don't know how to spell his name, pronounce his name, but -- MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. custody guy. So, - he was a Material Handler. was a Material Handler. Correctional Services anymore. However, did they have a background - no, I'm sorry. | went to R and D. So, he was Receiving and Discharge. So, these staff members worked as Correctional Officers, came up as Correctional Officers. But their daily assignment, their job descriptions changed. I'm Again, that was another non- , I believe worked in I think So, he’s not EFTA00111851

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO hr nm SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP w RPRRPR RRR a ee an Oe ee ee oe od Wr © Ww oo 89 MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : Their whatever, their non- custody. MR. So, the people that worked in the SHU, and the Correctional Officers, they were aware of it, but people that had different functions in the facility, they may not have been? WR. QM: May not have been because I wouldn’t talk to them on a daily basis. WR. QM: And what about, do you know if there were any kind of, like, post-it notes, or sticky notes, or any -? WR. WM: Yes. I had created - it was one, one, because I said orange card inmates - I said, make sure these particular inmates, inmates high visibility inmates, and I think I talked about that, that the inmates, their cards should be orange. And those would be our high visibility inmates that you - and I think I got an e-mail about that, too - about the high visibility inmates inside the unit, you should take special care to ensure these inmates are -- WR. ME: Observed. MR. : EBB. Sorry. i. "s , she would work Correctional ost. MR. —. So, should have he known that -- . ; = would have known. : -+ should have she known that Epstein had -? MR. : It’s common knowledge that you're supposed to do 30-minute rounds. . : Mm-hmm. . : And be vigilant. But however, would she know, necessarily, that those protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein, that he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, you see an orange card, if you see the guidance. I believe I had put something together, that was on the OIC’s desk, on the desk, talked about the high visibility inmates, and Jeffrey Epstein was a high visibility 91 So, Ms. But is it understood that a high visibility inmate like that needs a cell mate? wR. WM: Yes. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) RPRRRR UD in ew 90 MR. BM: © -- observed. doing your_rounds. MR. MM: | Anything, though, about the actual cell mate requirement, though? Do you know if there was any kind of, like, sticky note, or any kind of post-it about saying, hey, make sure that Epstein -? MR. :_I can't remember. MR. : Yeah, yeah. MR. : But like I said, I was putting out a lot of guidance -- MR. : Absolutely. MR. : == you know, coming from - and, you know - coming from the Warden, and things that I would have thought that was beneficial to the Correctional Officers. I was just putting that guidance out. I kept putting out. You know, like I said, you know, I'm talking to them, I'm putting out the guidance, but if they don’t open their e-mail and don’t read it. WR. QM: 9 What about some of the people who were Acting Lieutenants? Somebody MR. : Ms. ? 92 WR. QM: «Okay. So, you're saying, make sure you're doing rounds, but it's also understood, if it’s a high-visibility inmate, they need a cell mate at all times? MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. understand that? When you're And did they all Yes. All right. And to : Okay. . And I don’t believe I had that conversation with them. I'm not going to lie. I didn't have that conversation with them. MR. WM: what about some of these Lieutenants, like the Acting Lieutenants, like a MR. : Ms. EP oh, vs. was in Correctional Services. And she - I believe - during that time, was working an Attorney conference. EFTA00111852

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow WR. | al Yes. MR. : She was in Correctional Service. She was working an Attorney conference during that time. So, Ms. MM, I actually promoted her to Acting Lieutenant. She was getting paid as a Lieutenant. So, yes. She would have known. MR. So, she should have - or would have, or should have? 1 Yes, . How about some of these other ones that we're on? You said I, obviously, you already said you -- MR. + Yeah. MR. : -+ specifically directed him. WR. QR: If he - yeah - I brought him in the office, and we spoke. Yes. MR. Do you know how - and I think you said that you spoke to him on multiple occasions -- MR. 1 Yes, MR. -- is that correct, and made sure, hey, make sure he has a cell mate? MR. : Yes. 95 Inmates are locked in their on morning watch. cells. MR. : Right. MR. : So, anything, day watch, evening watch, that SHU Lieutenant should be : Okay. So, that’s why And we'll get in -- So, that’s why we would have When he and I had that conversation. WR. MY: «And do you remember - so, you recall specifically talking with him - do you - and this is, I want to know about - aside from what they should have known - specific conversations with ? MR. : I can't remember about . I believe it’s as internal. I came into the Lieutenant's Office and we spoke about it. So, as a collective, the Lieutenants were made aware. I can't say I remember that I would come into the Lieutenants, and we would talk about Epstein. So, again, between the guidance that was put =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 94 MR. z". Okay. What about [i ‘. i: i hac conversations - well, I don’t believe I had a conversation with her. MR. Should have she known, based upon the orange card? MR. MMMM: Yes. She would have known because I put the guidance out through the e- mail. WR. WM: | Now, the guidance, though, said about - you said it talked about rounds aS opposed to actual cell mate requirement, though, correct? MR. : I can't remember. : Okay. : You know, I don’t know, MR. because like I said, again, I put out a lot of MR. guidance. : Yeah. : But I know the people who I MR. MR. actually spoke to as far as, like, hey, you the OIC, I mean, you're the Lieutenant of SHU, that means you working day watch, that means any movement happens on day watch, it don’t happen 96 out through emails, and the conversations that I would have just encountering Lieutenants, yes, but however, I can tell you for sure, I had a conversation with . MR. And would have [i made sure that those people working in the SHU knew this information? MR. He would have - as the Lieutenant-in-Charge, yes. MR. =. Should have he made sure somebody like - somebody that’s not in there. Although, Tova Noel, I think that was her quarterly post. Or at least she was in there a lot of times -- MR. + Mn-hmm. MR. -- leading up to it. should have he made sure that she -- :_ Yeah. -- what about -- : Because she worked evening So, -- what about Michael Michael Thomas, probably not. But by him working in the unit, he would know. EFTA00111853

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 RPRRPR RRR a ee an Oe ee ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 97 I mean, you would say, okay, if he’s working on evening watching or morning watch, there was no need to move inmates. There was no showers that should have been taking place. There was no hearings. No medical. Nothing that we had to open up acell door for, for those inmates. IR. al okay’ MR. : So, most of those inmates was done on day watch, there was no reason for them to move these guys. MR. : Okay. MR. : You understand what I'm saying? WR. WM: Sure. And then, as far as conversations with ? wR. J: was one of the Lieutenants. As far as - again - speaking to as Lieutenants as a forum, you know, hey, got to make sure that you guys are doing it, you know, like that. But I know for a fact, the only person that I spoke to, that I pulled in my office, was the SHU OIC. MR. : So -- MR. : Was the SHU Lieutenant. Because they’re in charge of that unit. So, I and 10th -- MR. + Mm-hmm. MR. : -+ should have they known that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? MR. : I believe so. MR. : Okay. MR. : But, like again, I would have to go back through my emails, you know, because a lot of the communication that me and the Lieutenants had were through e-mail, because you can't catch them all on shift. MR. : Sure. MR. : You know, you catch them passing and coming. So, I would put out guidance that way. MR. : But as far as - you said - that everyone knew that he had an orange card and that he was a high visibility inmate, and therefore, he was required to have a cell mate. So, should have they known through that? MR. : Yeah. MR. And is there any excuse for any of them to say, I didn't know? WR. QB: © I'm not going to put that on the Lieutenant. You know, I'm not going to do RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 98 disseminate the information and the guidance out to him, and he’s supposed to take that guidance -- MR. Mm-hmm . MR. :-- and push it forward -- MR. For the unit. So, he’s in the charge of the unit. You went to the guy in charge of the unit and you said, hey, you're in charge of the unit. Make sure he's got a cell mate _at_all times. MR. :_ Yes, MR. And he, then, is supposed to take that, and anybody that works within his unit should know? MR. : Yeah. MR. Okay. What about these Lieutenants, though, especially the ones that are Acting as, like, Ops Lieutenants and Activities Lieutenants -- MR. : Okay. Yeah. MR. : == people like ; =. T think Al. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Should have they known, during these shifts, specifically on the 9th Durant. Okay. : I'm not going to be that guy to say whatever, whatever. Because I'm going to tell you what, sir, to be real with you, it was so much going on -- MR. : Sure. MR. : -- through that timeframe, that I don’t want to put my statement to something like that, that could detrimentally harm one of these Lieutenants. MR. Mm-hmm . I'm MR. : MR. And I'm not saying about don’t recall specific conversations about the MR. : I'm not going to say that, hey, I talked to -- Right. MR. to = on this day. not going to do that. speaking. I'm saying just the fact that there was an - and again, you’re saying that you cell mate_requirements -- MR. :_ Right. MR. : -- aside from J. But the fact that, if there was an orange -- EFTA00111854

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc Yes. -- card -- . -- is that something that just is common knowledge, if someone has an orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he’s got an orange card, he needs a cell mate? MR. : Right. But then again, also, it was high visibility guys on - what do you call that? - on -- MR. : Ten South? MR. 1 -- no. On. MR. : Oh, okay. MR. :_On that -- MR. : -- the one inmate. MR. : == that one occupancy. So, with the guidance I had put out, I got to give you that e-mail. MR. > Okay. MR. : That e-mail was saying that, hey, these guys with these orange cards, you need to ensure high visibility vigilance. MR. : So - all right - so -- MR. : Ensure that these guys, you know, are alive, and all of this, you know, 103 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure that is done. WR. i: Okay. MR. : Making sure this guy -. know, that's what I did. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because that’s what Mr. WB wanted. So, I did it. WR. QM: 41] right. And then, again, just to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you. You said you talked to specifically about it, but when you did visit the SHU, not only were you telling them to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you also telling them, the people that you did interact with, that he needed to have a cell The -- You “Okay. On Friday, August 9th - or sorry - when is the last time, can you recall, that you had that conversation with the RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew mmr =e Wh 25 102 report any, you know, I went into detail with that. WR. QM: Okay. So, maybe not, if it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they just require -- MR. MBM: Higher - or higher supervision. WR. QM: Okay. So, you just need to know what they’re doing at all times, and make sure that they’re okay? MR. : Yeah. MR. : All right. So, in this instance, it wouldn’t be, necessarily, cell mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye on Epstein, make sure that he’s -- MR. : That is correct. MR. : -- all right. So, I is the only one that you can specifically recall -- MR. | ae MR. : == and again, what you said -? MR. MMM: And then, again, when I went on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, SHU staff I can't remember, sir. No problem. I ‘don’ t remember. Because like 7 said, that guidance came out between the time of him being upon his release from suicide watch from that last time, to the time during the time that we was doing the vetting for the cell mate. So -? MR. : MR. i: it was, you know, it was a short period of time that this guidance and these ane took place. : Mn-hinm And then, the reinforcement was shes we would walk through the unit and just do rounds. And then, I'm, like, hey, this is a high visibility guy, why this guy got trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like me because I was trying to hold people accountable. But I didn't always write people up. VR. SR: in-hnm. EFTA00111855

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 105 WR. J: That's how I did, I came up like that. I'm trying to help you. People thought me trying to just talk to them about Correctional Services, or trying, giving them little, you know, helping them out, talking to them, you know, that I was trying to be the know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You know, you're not sociable, but now you're down here, telling us what to do. You're not one of those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, again, I can give you the playbook to success. But if you don’t read it, it’s just words. MR. : Sure. MR. : It’s just words. And then, I had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, even though, in my previous statement, I would never say anything statements to hurt them. I'm not doing that. But what I'l] tell you was, the relationship between me and the Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we move forward through today, you know, the statements that I make is not to try to put blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing I'm doing is, is telling you that, when the 107 WR. QM: Because like I said, I'm not here - I mean -- WR. QM: «I mean, we might say who was responsible -- Right. -- or did they drop the . + Right. . : But that’s us asking you a direct question. Not you coming to us, saying, it_was this guy’s fault. Right. You know, we're specifica asking you. So, just -- Oh, okay. Yeah. : == you know? That’s what I didn't under star But - and that’ 5 not what I'm - I mean, 7 m not here for that. I'm just -- Right. . “1 m just here -- I mean, we do have to Figure out -- RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 106 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, and I know that staff is going to blow you off. I mean, like, yeah, whatever. I'm glad he out the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to whatever we was doing. It’s what it is. WR. QM: Sure. And just so you know, just to give you a little bit of peace of mind, we’re asking you the questions directly. You're not placing blame on anybody. Right. So, if we ask you -- Yeah. -- like -- -- if they were responsible or something, that’s not on you. MR. MMM: 0h, okay. Well, I just vance to _-- Yeah. -- "because I didn't understane that Yeah, yeah. 108 You know? -- who did drop the bal] E* not coming to us. But that’s not - you're We're coming to you. Right. I understand. So, “On Friday, August 9, 2019, Lieutenant was on leave, and thus, there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to the Mh . That is correct. “In this event, the oration Lieutenant, Lieutenant FM -- -- “had oversight that day, ni took over the responsibilities of the SHU Lieutenant.” Men-hmm . So, what time did - can you look at the - on August 9th - what times that he worked on? P| MR. WM: «The periods that - this is Friday, right? MR. a. Correct. August 9th. EFTA00111856

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 109 WR. MM: =I got - so, basically, I have — was not there. Oh. a He was there on that Saturday, nich was evening watch on that Saturday. WR. QM: «Did he not work 4:00 p.m. to midnight? WR. WRB: He worked 4:00 p.m. - midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. WR. QM: Okay. You can speak. Do you know something different? WR. WRB: No, no, no. Iwas just clarifying. WR. a. Oops, sorry. Can I see the August 9th? WR. RM: So, who was working on August 9th? MR. : August 9th, it appears - I think you got . MR. : All right. So, would have been the Ops Lieutenant? Right. Well, [BM and then =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe cell mate? WR. | = believe so, yes. MR. : Okay. All right. So, that was incorrect, all this stuff about the thing. And then, it goes on to say, informally advised his Lieutenants that Epstein was not to be housed alone, and emphasized the need to be vigilant about 30- minute checks and unannounced rounds.” And that's - you said there was emails about that, as well as when you spoke with your Lieutenants, and when you went to the SHU, specie ? vn hmm. Correct? All right. And you ton’ t remember the jast time you did that, but oe August -- 1 -- between July 30th and nse ath Ou at least did it a few times? . Right. i : Okay. And you think you hit at least all three shifts between that time? wR. WM: Correct. Re CWO HM fWwrNP 110 . : Yeah. MR. : And then, underneath them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been Durant, and then, Right. . Correct. All right. right. So, they must have got this wrong somehow. So, it said - so, this is not accurate, when it says in this report - “In this event, the Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant , had oversight that day and took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who actually had oversight, then, since [i was out? All WR. QR: That would have been the day watch Operations Lieutenant. MR. : And who was that? MR. : The day watch Operations Lieutenant for August 9th would have been - it appears it was MR. 0, MEM would have been responsible? MR. : Right. MR. : And is it your understanding that knew that he needed a : T believe I did. Yeah. : All right. Inmates, cell mates, and are typically the people that are assigned to the SHU, are they in those three shifts, or you would have hit the people that are assigned between that time period? So, point being, maybe you don’t remember specifically, I had a conversation with that person, or that person, or that person, but if they're assigned to SHU, not a temporary duty assignment like an OT -- MR. : Right. MR. : == type of assignment, but the people that were assigned there -- MR. _° MR. : -+ that was their duty, too -. MR. MM: So, like, I remember specifically, I hit day watch. MR. : Right. MR. : 1 remember Mr. Perry. Percy or Perry. Whatever his name. I remember those guys. VR. SE: in-hnm. Okay. EFTA00111857

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113 114 WR. MM: I know I spoke to MMMM. I | 1 - it looks like Reyes was moved - I think his know I spoke to different guys. The SHU staff appointment with court was at, like, 8:30, and that was always up there. I think -- WR. a. But you just don’t . | ae -- he was gone from the remember talking to Noel? She might have been in the . tos “Tike, 1:50 p.m. background somewhere. . MR. : Right. . : Does that sound right? MR. : She could have been there. I : Something like that. It don't know. But I don’t remember -- could have been. But J should have MR. QR: «So, who was in the SHU at that time? If he’s gone from the institution -- actually -. by, Vike, 1:50 p. m., who would have -- -- with her? So, that would have been -- Of course. . : == who would have -? : Okay. -- all of your 6:00 to 2:00, Because that’s part of - and your 8:00 to 4: 00 staff. that's part of the expectations of the unit. MR. : Okay. If I give you a guidance, your guidance should MR. : So, that would have been -. have been disseminated down to the Officers. MR. : So, I guess let’s go from WR. MM: Okay. How about the the top. Who would have been the person in people - so, we were going to get into this charge at_the top level? later, but since we’re conversing about it now WR. MBM: That, I mean, as far as - 115 116 that would have been SHU one, because he would two hours out. So, for them to come from have got the notice that he was supposed to various parts of New Jersey, or Long Island, move the guys. you know, aS a consensus, we said, hey, I will continue - because that was the previous Administration, the previous Captain put that in for those guys. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, you know, with those conversations, you know, with the Lieutenants, I said, I will keep that. I said, you know, you try to do things - where I came from, we didn't do those things. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : You know, as far as that, you know, the Captain ran his shifts, whatever the shift was, you did it. But when I came to Brooklyn, that was a common practice in Brooklyn. You know, the Captain would allow them - when I was the Lieutenant - would allow us to, you know, to work those shifts. And due to, we've got staff that commute far out. So, that was just an incentive to get these guys to come to work. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : You know? rR CWO D SWwrNP PRR RRR RR COND eR a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w And who was that? And move the inmate. And_who was that? : And what time was he wor rking from? MR. : He was working from 8:00 to 4:00. WR. QM: So, he was 8:00 to 4:00. And those times are accurate on there, and if some Lieutenants said, oh, we, you know, it says zero to 8:00 -- MR. : Right. MR. : == but we’re actually 10:00 p.m. -- WR. WM: And that’s true, but the Officers worked those prescribed shifts. MR. : Okay. MR. : The Lieutenants was given those shifts because of their commutes. MR. : Okay. MR. : Some of them were commuting RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP RR ae ee RR i) PRP RPP PPE SUDHA wWNe RRR RP RPRR Woy w ae od row mre reo Mmmenmrn Ww Wr EFTA00111858

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP MR. : Sure. MR. : So, yes. MR. : But the times for these, the SHU staff, that's the actual hours that's listed on that. MR. : But for the Line staff -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- the Line staff, that roster correctly imitates their schedule. MR. —. Perfect. So, who, then - I guess you said they would be working until 4:00 p.m.? MR. | MR. : So, they would have at least two hours to be able to do something. : Right. And who was it that was . So, I had MM. 1 had Joiner. And I had (i. MR. And did you speak with all of those individuals about the need for a cell mate? WR. QM: =I believe I did because they were day watch, but like I said, it wouldn't 119 WR. QR: Okay. So, they would have known that he wasn’t coming back until probably evening watch. MR. Okay. So, you don’t think those guys would have known? MR. No. They wouldn’t have known. Because I don’t know when the inmate left the institution, but what happens is, when that court line comes out, I believe that the inmates leave the institution - supposed to - between 6:00 and 8:00, or 7:00, you know, let’s say 7:00 to 9:00. So, between that time, those inmates are - they’re picked up, and then, they're transported to a court. MR. : Okay. So, what time did work? What was his shift? MR. | was 8:00 to 4:00. MR. : So, if we can - let's assume, for this instance, that [MM knows that he needs a cell mate. WR. : Right. MR. :_ What should have he done? MR. : probably wouldn't have But let's say, for this I had Wey fwrP 10 a ee el oe ed ee ee AWN OWSOAUDH EWN Re CWO HM fWwrNP have been on August 9th. MR. Right. But just -- MR. It would have been on -- MR. -- but they would have known the need to -. :_ They was in the unit. Okay. : For that quarter. So, once I got the guidance from Mr. — of what he wanted me to do, I moved on and did it. So, I can't tell you, but I know I spoke to the day watch SHU staff. MR. MR. spoke to. MR. So, who, then - out of there - who would have the SHU staff reported the matter to? MR. MR. in there -- . > Mn-hmm. MR : == they now know that he doesn't have a cell mate, and the cell mate is not coming back. Sure. : They was the first ones I : The what now? So, the SHU staff that’s instance, he did know. MR. So, if he knew? MR. He knew that he needed a cell mate, and he knew that the cell mate wasn’t coming back. WR. WE: He probably wouldn’t - but what I'm trying to tell you, sir - he probably wouldn’t have never known. MR. I know, but in this instance, I'm just saying, let's -- MR. Oh, oh, okay. MR. : -- let's say that he did. MR. Okay. So, the instance of what would have happen. What would happen was MR. | dl What should have he done? MR. : == he should have - okay, this guy is not coming - he should have notified me. MR. : Okay. MR. : And should have been, like, hey, Cap, hey, Reyes, Epstein’s cell mate, hey, he went out to court, he’s not coming back. MR. And he did not? MR. : No. EFTA00111859

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 121 MR. | Okay. MR. : No one later informed me that that inmate had even went to court. I didn't even know he went with the court. Because guess what? During the time this inmate is in court, Epstein is in Attorney visiting all day. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, nobody would have even thought about it because, oh, Epstein is in Attorney visiting, his cell mate is not in there. Okay, his cell mate went to court. Nobody would have even been made aware that he didn't have a cellie until when they went to put him physically in the cell. WR. a. Okay. So, when do you think it would have been - in this instance - when do you think it would have come up? WR. WE: As far as knowing he didn't have a cellie? MR. : Correct. MR. : Somebody should have known when he didn't come. That should have been on evening watch. So, who was on evening 123 HB. But guess what? I was there. I didn't leave that night until, like, 8:00 something. I was there until 8:00 that night. WR. MMM: | Right. And you did not visit the SHU that night, though. Correct? MR. :_ I can't remember. MR. : All right. MR. : I'm not going to say did I make rounds that day or didn't I. I don’t know. MR. : Yeah. MR. : But I know I didn't leave that institution until late that night. WR. QM: And you know, though, that Reyes, you were never aware - on that day, August 9th - that Reyes -- Had went to court. No. -- you didn’ t even know he went to court, let alone wasn’t coming back. MR. Correct. So, ? MR. : Okay. MR. : Correct. MR. : All right. And should have went direct to is somebody that you did have a conversation PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 122 MR. MB: So, evening watch, well, well, well, well, well, well let's see here. You're talkin about as the OIC? In the SHU. : Yeah. That would have been a. . : Okay. So, IP . + Mn-hmm. : And who should have he reported the matter to? MR. MJ: He would have reported it to the Operations Lieutenant. WR. QM: «And who was the Operations Lieutenant at that time? MR. QR: I believe the Lieutenant would have been, that would have been vR. MM: AN] right. And | | ou, no one told you, so, obviously, didn't tell you. “ Mn-hmm : So -_okay - and would — one directly to — Yeah. He would have called 124 with, with regard to the need for a cell mate. Correct? MR. MB: «=I don't know if I - again, talking to people in all three shifts, do I remember — Working in the unit? Yeah. But as you're talking to people, I don't remember that, hey, I talked - there's certain people that I can't remember that I spoke specifically to. WR. ad Right. MR. : As opposed to some people, you know, could have been in the area. That's why I can't - I know I talked to the day watch SHU staff for sure. MR. : Okay. MR. And I mentioned those names. I talked to fase uys. i, MEM So, but I shoud have certainly have told them? MR. : Yes. MR. : So, he’s the Officer-in- Charge. Who else was on that day? MR. MMM: You had Tova Noel. And she was the number two. And then, you had M. again, EFTA00111860

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oe od eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 125 MR. Correct? MR. MR. : Okay. MR. : Noel. And then, you had M. HMMM, was SHU three that day. And then, you had the SHU four, was not assigned. MR. Okay. So, those three people were in SHU. So, was it ultimately the Officer-in-Charge responsibility, or should have these other two - and Noel - have taken any action? Should have they contacted anyone? WR. QR: Well, if you're walking, and you're doing rounds in the unit, you would see - especially at the 4:00 count, because you need to know where all of your inmates are - so, at that 4:00 count, and where is Epstein? Epstein is at - he’s in Attorney visiting, because I'm going to get a count slip from Attorney visiting, right? IR. _ Mn-hn, . : Where is Reyes? Reyes is out MR at court. Then somebody should have called R&D (Phonetic Sp. *01:45:06). Where is this guy at? Somebody should have called R&D. That 127 that the 4:00 count, when you going through the unit -. WR. WM: but if they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. count. So, let’s say, in this instance, that they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. Tova Noel. Nobody would know. Would R&D have -- -- called them? No. So, unless they do the count, they don’t even know that the guy is not coming back? That's right. : Okay. So, normally - So, no one is calling them and saying, by the way, your guy that went to court, he’s not coming back? Right. : Okay. Because you would know. Because. like I told you before, sometimes inmates go to court and don’t come back. The RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 126 means the Lieutenant would have been notified because you can't clear the count. Where is the inmate at? MR. Right. MR. So, if you can't clear the count, where is the inmate? The inmate went out. But it’s now 4:00. But I did say that sometimes inmates don’t come back on the 4:00. So, they call that “ghosting.” Supposedly, he’s supposed to be at court. But did you get a count slip from court? No. When he leaves out of the institution, that’s on them. So, that means the institution number should have came down minus one. MR. So, you believe that the SHU should have known by 4:00 p.m., during the 4:00 p.m. count? MR. Yeah. MR. All right. And let's - in this case - if they didn't do a count at 4:00 p.m., should have they somehow known otherwise, after that? So, would someone have contacted them and said, by the way, this guy is not coming back? MR. Right. So, that means that, 128 only time you’re going to know is when these guys always come back from the court line by . : Okay. . : But sometimes they don’t come back at 4:00. MR. Now, what time was their shift? Was it 4:00 to midnight? MR. : Who? MR. The people we were just talking about, the evening watch. MR. Yes. Their - yes. midnight. WR. QM: So, 4:00 p.m. to midnight. At that point, if it was recognized that there was no cell mate and he needed a cell mate, could have a - if they did contact the Ops Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant did contact you - could have an inmate been assigned at that time, or would have had to have wait the next day? MR. MB: Well, what I would have done, if I would have known right then and there that he didn't have a cell mate, he’s already in Attorney visiting, right? 4:00 to EFTA00111861

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP MR. | at Yup. MR. : So, I would have went on ahead. All right. Keep him in Attorney visiting. I would have called - guess who I would have called? I would have let the AW know. Ms. Well, Ms. , and I would have called the Warden. I would have said, hey, look, this guy went out the WAB today. Or Reyes didn't come back from court. We got to_vet another guy. MR. : Okay. MR. : That's what would happen. And plus, I was there at 8:00. So, let’s say he got released from Attorney visiting, and he didn't go back, and when they went to the - let's say, hey, this dude - he don’t have a cell mate. I would have been, like, hold up. I would have said, because I got R&D staff down there. Right? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Because I can't put him on suicide watch. I can't put him on close supervision. So, I would have said, hey, quarter this guy right now in R&D, put a staff member on it, which would have been Fox One. 131 MR. a Okay. Now, let’s go back and say, if did know, and didn't tell — he didn't tell you, he didn't tell Mm-hmnm . : == is he the one that -- He dropped the ball. -- right. . Because, again, like I told you about count, and you made a good statement, then how did you clear the count? MR. a. Mm-hnm. So, the two people that - so, if [MJ knew, and he didn't tell anybody he dropped the ball, but at the same time, if the 4:00 p.m. count was conducted, they would have, then, raised the issue with Right. So, there would have been Right. And if not that, it would have also happened at the 10:00 p.m. count, as well. ve. a: Right. PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 130 Put him on Fox One. Put a staff member down there. Let me call the Warden. What does Fox One mean? That means - that’s R&D. : Okay. That’s that cell assignment, : Okay. It would have been Fox One. And are those -. . : Just, I can't just put him on suicide watch. WR. QR: | Right. people monitored at all times? WR. MM: No. But I would have had somebody monitored -- MR. : Oh, I gotcha. MR. : -- IT would have had, hey, put a staff member down there, and watch this guy, until we get him a_cell mate. MR. a. Okay. And you think that that same day, August 9th, he would have had a cell mate, if you were made aware? MR. : Yes. If I was made aware, he would have got a cell mate. WR. QR: So, if the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. count were both conducted, there would have been notice, hey, no cell mate -- MR. : Correct. MR. : -+ bring it up to : : Correct. : Allright. So, if ‘didn't know, BB didn't tel] him. So, dropped the ball, the SHU staff dropped the ball, it looks like. Right. Okay. Before we move on from that, do you want to talk to anything specific to that notion? And in Fox One, 132 Okay. . : Can we take a break? : Absolutely. All right. It is current! 11:58 p.m. This is Senior Special Agent a and I am pausing the recording. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and back on the record). EFTA00111862

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oe od eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 133 WR. MM: Okay. The recorder is on. It is currently Tuesday, June 15, 2021, at 12:06 p.m. We just took a short eight-minute break. And Mr. I, I remind you that you are under oath. Thank you very much for your cooperation with this matter, and it is voluntary, and you can choose not to answer, or leave at any time. : Okay. : All right. So, what we MR. MR. are talking about before, before we move on, I just want to go back to, so, you said, if = knew he dropped the ball, if the SHU staff didn't do their counts at 4:00 p.m., and at 10:00 p.m., that’s when they would have next found out that Epstein was without a cell mate, and they would have, then, reported it up. MR. Mm-hmm . MR. Correct? What did we want to follow up with on that? MR. If a notification came from court that Reyes wasn’t coming back, who would have got that notification? WR. QE: § That notification would have came though R&D and through the Control Center, 135 not physically there, and they would have had notified the Operations Lieutenant, that this guy didn't come back. So, that means somebody would have had to make sure that the institutional count was right or wrong. MR. So, in this instance, if HH knew, who would have been the one that would have informed him? WR. MJ: That would have one of the - that would have been either J - would have notified him, but then, I also said that worked in the capacity of OIC because a lot of those Officers would say, oh, I don’t have the ability to log on, into the program. So, he would do double duties. MR. : Okay. So, let’s say that the SHU staff that time did notify MR. Okay. MR. Let’s say I now didn't take an = MR. a MR. : Okay? Now, let’s say the next SHU staff comes on board, should they continue to report the matter up the chain? MR. Yeah. RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS 134 which, the Control Center would have updated the count in Sentry, to reflect if the inmate was physically in the institution, or was still out in court. So, it would be contingent to look at that Sentry roster, which would be the E-1, that the Control Center had created for those counts, to find out if Reyes was still on the count, as physically being in the institution, or out the court. MR. Okay. And if R&D and Control did get that notification, did they have to notify the SHU? . would be off. MR. If, let’s just say that that notification came between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 m., who in the SHU would have got notified? WR. WM: The OIC. Which would have been - for day watch - it would have been either or a. MR. : And what should they have And with that one time, they would have reflected on - inside of Sentry, and also, they would have known that the inmate was 136 MR. QM: «Even though the SHU that replaced them already made the notification that Epstein was without a cell mate and needed a new one? wR. J: have been off. MR. = Well -. MR. : And then, they wouldn't have known that, you know, when they brought him back from Attorney visiting, that the cell was empty. MR. Right. And I'm not specifically talking about the count right now. What I'm saying is, like, if the SHU did notify , hey, Epstein is required to have a cell mate and his cell mate is gone, we need to get him a new one. Yes. Because then the count Because their count would Right. : now never takes any action. " Should the SHU, later that day, made the same notification to the - in this case - to MM? vey, Epstein still hasn't been re- assigned a cell mate. MR. : Correct. MR. Okay. So, the SHU may EFTA00111863

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 137 have done it right at day watch, and [I got the notification, but the SHU on night watch -- MR. + Didn't do it. MR. : -- didn't do it, and they should have. WR. MM: Because he was in Attorney visiting. So, they said, oh, it was an empty cell. We said, okay, yeah. Epstein is still at Attorney visiting. Nobody would have cared about the cellie because they would have thought he was still out at court. MR. : Okay. MR. : But if he didn't come back by 8:00 that night, somebody should have said something. WR. QM: Now, let's go even further from, now we go from evening watch to now morning watch, we're on August 10th, where Noel and Thomas are now in there. MR. : Correct. MR. : Should have they made the notification to | ? MR. :__They wouldn't have known. MR. : All right. So, they should have -. WR. QR: A011 right. MR. + 5:00. MR. : -- it looks like we got the 5:00, the 10:00, the midnight, the 3:00 m., the 5:00 a.m., and then, is this the rounds? MR. : Yeah. That's the control. MR. : The control. MR. : Yeah, we don’t want this. I'll take this. WR. QM: Okay. So, here are the counts from August 9th, from 4:00 p.m. through August 10th, through 5:00 a.m. MR. + Okay. MR. : Now, we have reason to believe that the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 p.m., none of them were conducted. WR. WM: Okay. So, you're saying that the 4:00 count for August 9th was not done, and the 10:00 wasn’t done? WR. QM: And the 10:00. And nor was the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., or the 5:00 a.m. 139 So, I got the RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 138 MR. MJ: «They would have been in the unit, with the assumption that all of the inmates have been accounted for by the previous shifts because the count didn't go - wasn’t bad. MR. MM: So, that's the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? MR. : Correct. MR. : Are you saying they don’t really need to do those counts? MR. MB: No, no, no. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, they would have not known that that inmate didn't come back from court, if it wasn’t addressed on either at day watch or evening watch. MR. : Okay. MR. : They wouldn't know. They would just - can't be responsible for counting what inmates was housed in that unit, between the hours of 12:00 to 5:00 a.m. Because those are the three counts. MR. :_ These. MR. : So, yeah, let’s see - so, these are the counts - let's look. So, the 5:00 p.m. one? 140 MR. : Non, is there a way to look at that, if there is someone, let's say, because at the 12:00 a.m. count, you'll notice there is a discrepancy. There is one inmate they're off by. Control says, hey, you’re off R. : Right. . : Is there a way to kind of look at these counts and notice, all right, this would have been picked up then, or a way to kind of tell that these weren't conducted by just looking at those documents, or noticing if, you know, if Reyes is gone by 1:50, you know -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- he’s released. Is there a way to tell that on there? Because you've got it right . : Okay. . : This is the form right there. This will tell you who the inmates are, out of count WR. SR: Okay. EFTA00111864

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 141 MR. MB: And that’s from Small. He was one of the receiving and discharged employees that was probably working on August 9th. : Okay. So, she would know who was MR. MR. still out at count. So, that means, Operations Lieutenant didn't even sign it. That's a violation. WR. WE: So, this document that you're looking at, it looks like - what is it? - like, the third page on there? WR. QR: Yeah. That they should have - because you’ve got right here. Clark. Unassigned work assignments. So, this inmate Clark. This saying he’s out at court. Okay. Okay. -- SQ now, our count is minus one. But we know where he is because he’s still out at court. So, Reyes, that count - so, if he went out to court, let’s say we was at 88, let’s just say. When he went out to court, him and Clark went out, we would have 143 receipt signed by the Marshals by the staff that was at the New York court over there, the people that handle the inmates, that transfer order should have been sent back with whoever was transporting the inmates, and brought back to the institution to say that this guy never came back. MR. So, that third page that you're saying, though, that that was a violation that the Operations Lieutenant didn't sign? Would have that been , at that time? Because all of this stuff, it’s called a 30-day file. MR. Okay. MR. So, what the Lieutenants are supposed to do on their shift, is supposed to, when they make rounds in Control, they're suppose - because we're supposed to take a count on every shift. Especially in the off- hours. So, before Epstein, that was a responsibility. On the off-hours, you will be responsible for taking the count. So, that PRR RR Se ee a RPRRR COND mreNyre rmrROow mrer WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP RR eo PRR RRP RRR OOD fwr mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 142 But guess what? Reyes drops How? He got released. Where is . | el So, if he was released -- . : -- form that should have came from the Marshals back to us, saying that he got released. MR. MM: So, between the 10:00 a.m. count and the 4:00 p.m. count, would there be a form in there showing that he was released? MR. :_ There should have been. MR. : Okay. MR. : That should have been generated from the Marshals because it’s a transfer order. You heard of a transfer order? Every time an inmate goes off, if you've got ten that went out to court that day, that’s that transfer order. Whatever the disposition of those inmates are, okay, boom, ten went out to count, eight coming back. Okay, where are the other two? Okay. I got this guy that’s still out of counted, and he’s at court. He’s still at whatever, at this timeframe. Where is Reyes? There should have been a transfer went down to 86. off the count. 144 evening watch guy would take that 10:00 count. Right? Or somebody would take the 4:00 count. So, the Operations Lieutenant or the Activities would normally go down and take the 4:00. They would go through the paperwork for that day, up to 4:00, and you would sign all of the forms. Like, if somebody checked out keys, restricted key forms, Operations is supposed to sign it. mR. ad Vinh. MR. : Ifa transfer order receipts comes back, you're supposed to sign it. Whatever happens on that shift, you're supposed to sign the count slips. That form, right here? That should have been signed by the Lieutenant. WR. MM: Okay. So, these forms that we're looking at 4:00 p.m., there is a number of signatures that are missing? MR. :_ Yeah. MR. : And should have that been the Lieutenant, as in - it looks like JM, or -? MR. MM: Official preparing count, official taking count. Those are going to be - so, the person that was taking that count would EFTA00111865

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 145 have been the OIC, then the person who actually was there as a Lieutenant that was taking the count, normally we would sign it in red. MR. — Now, the Lieutenant, when you say they’re there, aren't they in the Control Center? MR. They're in the Control Center WR. QM: «And then, the SHU calls - ve. a: doing the count. MR. Okay. So, the SHU calls in, says, we got the count, 72, 73, 74, whatever it is. -- while the Officers are Mm-hmnm . And in this case, when you ook at the 4:00 p.m. though, you're seeing that there was no Lieutenant that signed off on . + No. MR. | So, on the first page, as well as the third page, was where they should have signed? WR. ME: Right. 147 These? Yup. So, these are the slips that the actual SHU - for the ones that are in the SHU. Can you just put an initial by it, or circle it, or whatever, which ones it is that would have been conducted at the SHU? WR. WM: Okay. I think it’s Zulu Bravo. Zulu Alpha. MR. a. So, ZA and ZB are the two . 1 Yes, . : Are there any more than wR. WR: You have - so, that’s - you've got Food Service. GS, (Indiscernible *00:12:11) Attorney visiting. That’s Kilo India. That’s court. Kilo Zulu. Yes. So, Zulu Alpha would have been that, and then, that would have been Ten South. MR. All right. South. WR. WE: «Charlie Alpha. Alpha. MR. the SHU. So, Ten Charlie But no, just specific to Like, where? Not - I don't know if =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 146 MR. i: All right. And then -. MR. : Yeah, because I got a - look - I got a signature for this one, that was approved by the Operations Lieutenant right here. MR. | pl And who was that? MR. : That's - I don't know who that signature is. MR. All right. It looks like HE would have been on duty, is that what time? MR. MM: That's going to be 4:00 p.m., whoever took the 4:00 p.m., that Lieutenant would a MR. : Okay. Can we go to the SHU count slips themselves? And that should be the last, like, page or two. MR. See, yup. Those are the inmates that went to the Attorney visiting. So, those three would have been on the count -- MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. -- slip. Now, you said where? MR. QM: | The very last page. It’s, like, the actual slips. 148 Ten South is considered SHU, but I'm just talking specific to, like, where Epstein was, in the SHU. Like, who, you know, the -- Yeah. -- I'm assuming the 72, Right here. That would have been the Zulu Bravo and the Zulu Alpha. MR. MM: 41] right. Great. And are you able to tell me who all are on those slips? It says S. J and Tova And that would have been for All_right. _ M. =. and Tova Noel, for the 4:00 count. MR. Okay. And now, what is the difference between the ZB and ZA? MR. I believe that ZA is the total SHU. WR. SR: Okay. EFTA00111866

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 149 MR. MBM: And then, then you had the inmates that_were up on Ten South. MR. Okay. So, the ZB, is that Ten South, then? So, we're focused on ZA? . : “All right. So, ZA, and that one was signed by who? It looks like Noel and I. MR. ‘. i. MR. Now, if that count wasn't actually conducted, are they the only two that are responsible for falsifying that, or would the other people -? MR. : This would be the whole Unit. It would be -- . | pt The whole Unit. MR. : -- the OIC, everybody that was in the Unit. MR. Okay. MR. : Because that means, on evening watch, I believe you have one, two, three, four staff, and they all have a different range that they have a responsibility 151 MR. : So, that would have been -- MR. : That was the August 9th. MR. :_-- that would have been -- MR. : Are we looking at August 9th? wR. HM: -- so, probably took the count. And then, R. - or Ms. , HB would have been in Ten South, doing the count in Ten South, I believe. If I could remember. It’s been a while. MR. All right. So -. MR. : Because it’s only per - there's only one staff member inside of Ten South. WR. WR: So. ws. ID should have been present for the count at 4:00 p.m.? MR. : Yeah. Because I'm looking, and you have Ten South number one was Mason. And then, you had Ten South number two was fj So, probably was up there doing pro erty. MR. a. Now, is this only for the four, or should there have been a Lieutenant, as well as in the 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP of. MR. i: Okay. MR. : You know what I'm saying? So, they feed us, they feed the ranges. They monitor the ranges by doing the 30-minute rounds. So, the OIC has the key. So, those other three staff - the number two, the three, and the four, I believe - they're supposed to do rounds, feed, do - issue cosmetics - do whatever they need to do as far as the normal operations inside the unit. So, if nobody counted, that means who count, who help assist in counting in Ten South? For the five guys. MR. : Right. MR. : Because I believe the Lieutenant is supposed to come up. Normally, the Activities will go up, I believe, and do the count in Zulu Bravo. So, that means that one of the Lieutenants would be up in the unit when the count was going on. MR. So, in this case, a Lieutenant should have actually been present? MR. : Yeah. MR. Which Lieutenant on that date would that have been? So, S. . So, who is S. ? 5. BEB is one of the 152 What is the first name on S. BH. And then, I'm looking in here, so, Ten South number two is MMB, which is the Property Officer. So, during that time, I was hiring to go up here and get the property situated on the evening watch. MR. So, is S. EE even working in the SHU at that point? I think he would have had the first -- MR. MM: Because, you know, that - because that would have been S. Let me look at the day of, because I don't think he would work that, because it said QM is the number one. MR. And that’s where I'm confused, by looking at some of these counts, why would they even have -? ca S. BEM was on overtime. was day watch. So, So, that means EFTA00111867

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc came in late. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, probably did the count because Mason didn't get there. And now, he was notorious for that. MR. Okay. MR. : Mr. Mason a good guy, but he had some health problems, and maybe he didn't get there on time. So, P| went on ahead, and since the count started at 4:00, he probably went ahead and did the count. MR. All right. And are you able to tell on that, does this have a time for when the count was supposedly conducted? MR. It’s all of them going to reflect 4:00. MR. | at Just 4:00. : 4:00. It's not going to say MR. 4:05, 4:04. The count is 4:00 p.m. MR. : Okay. So, in this case, though, the one for the overall SHU, that would have been - you said - is that a (Indiscernible *00:17:15), or are you just telling that’s for the Ten South? WR. MB: © Overall SHU would have been 155 talked about the timeframe that goes between the 30-minute rounds. So, like, let’s say it’s 11:00. You should do a round somewhere between 11:00 and_11:30. You understand? MR. Yup. MR. : If it’s done at 11:29, that's fine. But you should be doing it within that 30-minutes because it has to be irregular. So, you can't put on there and said, I did rounds at 11:00, 11:30. MR. 12:00. MR. : 12:00, 12:30. You know, you can't do it like that. So, let's say, you know, you're feeding up there, you’re up t here feeding, but that round is not going to be - because you're not monitoring, you're doing a service. Just because you're on the range, that means you did a round. A round is physically stopping what you’re doing. So, if I'm feeding during the time it’s supposed to, I'm supposed to do a round, secure the slot, I go to the beginning of the range. One, two, five, seven, nine, 11, whatever, whatever, whatever. Document the time I did the round. Then go back to feeding. It’s not while I'm up Mason probab] RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr Zulu Alpha. MR. Yeah, and who was on that? That's where I'm -. MR. | a i MR. : So, ~ Bi and Noel would have been the one that did the overall, but what you're saying is everyone - if the overall count was not conducted - everyone was responsible? MR. Yes. MR. For falsifying that? MR. Yup. MR. Because everyone would have known. MR. They would have known -- MR. That it wasn’t conducted. MR. -- that it wasn’t conducted. MR. : Now, is there any kind of, like, hey, we fed them, that's how we did our count? MR. I: No. this guidance out -- Count - because I put Yup. . : -+ the difference between doing rounds and accurate rounds, you know, we 156 there. Okay, I'll feed the range, it took me seven minutes, 7.9 seconds to feed a round. And so, that’s telling me that you did a regular round for a hour, one hour, because you was up there for 45 minutes? No. Did you do a round? MR. : Right. MR. : Did you - can I physically watch you go from cell to cell? That's a round. MR. : But what about - so, can a round can't be a count - but can a count be a round? MR. : So, every 30 minutes, if you're doing a count at 4:00, you also have to do a round at 4:00? MR. : Yup. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because if I go up there at 4:00, if I go - let’s say I start 4:00. At 4:00, that’s going to be that round. You understand what I’m saying? Because count, I'm taking accountability of the unit, so, if it takes probably two or three minutes a count, that would be 4:03 that I count in that range. EFTA00111868

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PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 157 I go to the next range. I'm done at 4:09. 4:16. 4:20. 4:27. Guess what? Between that 30 to 5:00, I got to go do another round, in between that timeframe, not to exceed 40 minutes. That's the policy. MR. Okay. Do you know anything about the SHU not conducting rounds? WR. MBB: Do I know of SHU not conductin rounds? MR. —. If the personnel in the SHU. Do you know of anything about that, of them -? WR. QR: =I would have never known that those staff were not - because again, that's not my purview. Sure. sit down there and monitor So -- rounds. -- I just mean, like, had told -- No. -- told you this? I would have never known 159 WR. QR: =I would have thought they would have been done. MR. -- but do you - now - do you know if they were or they weren’t? WR. QR: Iwas told that they were not conducted. MR. | ad 4:00 p.m., as well? MR. : Iwas told that the Officers that were assigned to the morning watch shift did not do rounds from the time they walked into that Unit until the time that they found inmate Epstein deceased in the cell. MR. That, I think what you’re referring to is the August 10th -- MR. 1 Yes, MR. -- I'm saying August 9th. MR. : August 9th. I would have not known that. MR. I'm talking about. MR. Now, I'm aware of it. Because if the inmate didn't come back from court, how did you clear court? MR. — And did you know that prior to this conversation, though? Have you No, no, no, no. Now. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 158 until after the Epstein thing, we had to monitor the camera footage of what the SHU staff did, and I was appalled to what they were doing on the off-hours. MR. So now, after the fact, are you aware if any of these counts were conducted or not conducted? MR. MM: I was not made aware that no count was conducted because I do not monitor camera footage of the staff -- MR. No, I'm saying after -- MR. -- so, I wouldn’t know. MR. -- no, I'm saying after the fact. So now. WR. QR: Now, I know, and I was - and again, when I had to monitor the footage per the new directive that was put out for the Central Office, and the Captain would have to monitor X amount of hours of SHU footage per week? Even after we had the situation with Epstein, staff wasn’t still doing it right. MR. But in the - what I'm asking is - in those instances, do you know if the 4:00, the 10:00, the 5:00, on these August 9th and August 10th, do you -- MR. : -- oh. Yeah. So, what I'm saying is -- WR. a, this is all new to me. MR. : -- okay. So, you didn't - you had never heard, up until this date, that it’s possible that the 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. were not conducted? MR. :_That is correct. MR. : All right. And no one ever brought that to your attention? MR. : is correct. MR. : Okay. You can just speak. MR. MM: Did you - what if I told you there was a memo written by Officer stating that he told Officers I, , and Joiner that at 1:50 p.m., on August 9th, that inmate Reyes was going WAB, and possibly not returning? MR. : about that. . about it? Hmm. Didn't know anything So, no one made you aware EFTA00111869

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 161 WR. MM: Nope. So, 1:50. If they knew that he was - like, I remember, I told you - that it comes out automatically, from R&D. It says, the X, Y, Z inmate won't be returning, so he needs to bring his belongings to court line. So, if they knew he was WAB, who informed him? Because I bet you, I can guarantee, on that Sentry paperwork, that was generated that morning, that night - so, that would have been the 7th, because it’s generated on the 7th for the 8th - no, the 8th for the 9th, I know it didn't have WAB on it. . Okay. So, my question -- What does WAB stand for? -- With All Belongings. : Oh. That's what you would -- Huh? -- WAB stands for With All Right? MR. Yes. . : So, and here’s my question for you. If Officer IMM was aware of that first page - should that have been updated by then? MR. ; So, is that -- MR. : -+ this E-1 should have - MR. So, the E-1 is wrong? So, at that point, that 4:00 p.m. count, that out - say? MR. Which one, sir? shouldn’t have shown 1:00 for the SHU. MR. Right. Because it would have that means that out count from the SHU was Jeffrey Epstein. WR. i. If you look at it, is the there? Under attorney visit. MR. It should have been on -- -- Attorney visiting. Is he on there? On Attorney aR, | 163 MR. Yup. This E-1 -- this is not_a correct E-1. what is that? The last column, what does that MR. The out count. The out count said 2:00. You know what I'm saying? Because Epstein popping up on another column over Is there an Attorney -? visiting. At - check the first or second RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 162 -- he would be made aware by He would have been made by Who was the R&D staff that MR. MMM: Well, the only one I could - because he’s not on our roster, he’s not Correctional Services - I can only go by this. MR. And who is that? MR. Ms. Small. MR. Ms. Small. Okay. MR. But I can tell you Ms. Small, she works from - I think her end shift is 10:00. So, that means she would have been there around 2:00, because I think she worked 2:00 to 10:00. I don’t think - on the weekends - I don’t think the R&D staff stayed past 10:00, past 10:00. You understand what I'm saying? MR. MR. 10:00. MR. MM: So, my question is, if R&D knew, should that Control document - on the Okay. So, they didn't stay past Okay. Let's see. Is there one that says ATTY? Okay. No, sir. I don't see MR. MM: Can I see that for a second? This one right here, : Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. : I pointed to the first column MR. MR. that said_it. MR. Okay. I'msorry. Yes. It shows that there was a total on the - a total of three inmates that was out at Attorney, and out at Attorney visiting, during the 4:00 p.m. count. MR. MM: And one of them, did one of those inmates belong to the SHU? MR. One of those was Zulu Alpha. MR. Okay. MR. Correct. MR. And then, at that point, they also - for Zulu Alpha - they’re showing that one inmate was for - is still on out count, which means possibly, that it’s mentioning Efrain Reyes, then? EFTA00111870

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP MR. : Okay. Now -- The last column. -- the last column, it says out count it still says 1:00 for Zulu Alpha. MR. : So, it should have been updated by then, being the fact that this is the 4:00 p.m. count? MR. : Right. MR. : They should have been updated by then, because they got a notification at 1:50 that_he’s not coming back. MR. : Correct. MR. : So, that E-1 document is Officers e , and Joiner that inmate Reyes wasn’t going WAB, and that Epstein would need to be assigned a cell mate upon arrival from his Attorney visit -- MR. : Yes, sir. MR. : == Reyes has to communicate where - who dropped the ball, and at that point? wR. ME: Okay. =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe I mean, for the sake 167 . 1 Yes. : Correct. All right. And what you’ re saying, though, is - I think what you said, though, is during the morning shift, the zero dark hundred to 8:00 a.m., or I think it was 8:00 a.m., right? MR. : Yes, sir. MR. : It's 8:00 a.m.? They wouldn't have known. MR. + They wouldn't have known. MR. : Right. Because they -- MR. + They wouldn't have known. MR. : == because if the counts weren't done at 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., they wouldn't have necessarily known. WR. QR: They wouldn't necessarily know. WR. QM: «But what about, like, if they had a conversation at 12:00 a.m. with the Ops Lieutenant about the fact that the counts are off, re-do - or was it 10:00 p.m.? MR. :_It’s midnight. MR. : The midnight one was the one where the count is -- Re CWO HM fWwrNP 166 of time, what we talked about before is, that means they would notify by me that he needed a cell mate? Yeah. They knew. They knew the expectation. So, that means - if you know that, at 1:50 p.m. he wasn't coming back - that means you should have got on the phone and contacted the Operations Lieutenant. . a. And we discussed this. The next people that ron have done it would have been at the 4:00 , the 10:00 p.m. type of count. They should have, then, notified the Operations -- MR. : Yes. MR. : vk. a: count. MR. BB: So, if you go 8:00, 9:00, to - we're going to 08/10 now -- What? (Indiscernible *00:28:37). -- so, 08/10. And she worked 10:00 p.m. MR. :_ At -- MR. : -- and she worked from 4:00 p.m. through. MR. MB: So, she wasn’t (Indiscernible -- Lieutenant at the same 168 If you look at - yeah, the This is it right here. : So, this is it right here. So, we’ re talking about 08/10/2019, that’s going to be - so, this E-1 was generated at 003517 hours. MR. i: On August 10th? MR. : On August 10th. And this shows that there’s 72 inmates in SHU. WR. WM: Can you look at the counts EFTA00111871

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO hr nm SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP w RPRRPR RRR a ee an Oe ee ee oe od Wr © Ww oo for that day? The very last page. Yeah, Or it could be the second to last. So, I'm assuming you're looking for es And then, if you could sist aicle ZA, so we know what we’re looking HE What is the count on that? That is - it appears - it says cocci the count on that day was 73. And that cleared count was n =_ a is correct. Okay. Do you want to follow up? WR. QM: If there was a mistake with the count, and the Lieutenant caught onto the mistake, what was the -- WR. MBB: And the quota was the protocols? wR. ME: | -- yeah. MR. | Okay. MR. : So, you go upstairs -. I'm sorry. That's the expectation. WR. MM: «So, expectation, not policy. wR. WM: =I can't - I'm not going to sit up here and quote policy when I don’t know it verbatim. MR. | al Absolutely. MR. : But I will tell you the expectation is that Supervisor - Correctional Services - a Lieutenant, on an announcement of a bad count will go to the area of the count, and will observe the said count. WR. QM: | what if the Supervisor claims that, when they called in the count, and they said 73, they said, hey, we're calling in 73, but we know we're off by one? Does that make any sense? WR. QM: That doesn't. That means the institutions count is going to be bad, which -- And then, then that -- -- that is the worst thing 171 Well, that you can -- WR. GR: nd -. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 170 MR. MM: Al] right. This is what happened. So, if I'm the Officers, I count, I count the Unit, and they say 73. The Control Center would have been, like, no, bad count. They're not going to tell you what you counted. They're going to make you count again. So, the procedure is, once that bad count has been made notified, the Control Center notifies the Lieutenant, and the Lieutenant is supposed to go up to the Unit, to observe the count MR. : All right. So -- MR. : For -. MR. : -- $0, if the - Lieutenant - in this case, J -- should have gone -- Should have went to the -- -- and observed. -- went to SHU, to observe the count. WR. QM: So, if there is a bad count, that's -- . :_ That's right. . : -- that's the protocol. . : That's the policy. 172 MR. QM: © -- besides the inmate - it’s three things - an inmate died, your count being off, or an inmate escaping. Those are the big things right there. If your count is bad - because that’s what we get paid to do - we're the masters of count, that’s what we do, accountability of inmates, in a Correctional setting. That's what you do. That’s what you're paid for. So, you call me, as a Lieutenant, and you tell me, hey, LT., we keep counting the unit, and the unit, and the count is bad. So, the next thing I'm going to tell you, give me some staff up there. I want a standup bed book. So, if they say that -- -- so then, I'm going to identify each inmate by their face, and their cell assignment, to get the count. MR. —. So, what if they say, we're off by one, but we know where that one is? That one is over there. And then, the Lieutenant responds -- MR. : But they know -- MR. : == all right, I'm going to go verify where that one staff is, you redo EFTA00111872

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 173 the count. Would that make sense? WR. WE: No. What I'm telling you is when it was supposed to have been done. Okay. Because - So, even if they said, like, hey, we wrote down 73, but that - so, let's say Thomas, who is not a typical SHU guy- he’s the one that calls this in. He says, I wrote down 73 on the count slip, but that’s because one our guys that we’re counting for is over at -- R&D. : == let's say R&D. And -- Okay. So -- . : -- and then, the Lieutenant then says, I'm going to go verify that that person is there, you reconduct the count, and create a new count slip. MR. : Okay. So, it was one RA - I believe that’s R&D. RA, I believe, is R&D. Right? No. So, in R&D, there was nobody in R&D. There's no one -- MR. So, what if the -. MR. -- there’s no one in R&D. 175 Where did those inmates go? So, somebody was in there messing with the numbers in order for the count to clear. MR. In order to find out where they went is it, we have to go into TRUSCOPE (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:52)? Is that where we would have to find -- WR. QB: You would - you could go in the TRU - most - Sentry is supposed to be full- proof, all-proof. MR. Okay. So, Sentry. MR. But it’s only as good as the people that's putting the information in there. MR. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And are the SHU the people that are putting the information in, or is it the Control Center? WR. WM: So, this is what happens. In theory, you've got - when inmates come back from court, and they do the transfer orders, and it goes down to Control, R&D is supposed to update those inmates coming back in. Control Center gets the transfer order, and they're verifying. Any time any internal movement is RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP RR eo PRR RRP RRR OOD fwr mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 174 So, the policy is, the Lieutenant is on there, I'm going to watch you do it, and so, that’s the second count. The third count is the standing bed book count. That I used the bed book cards, and I go cell by cell, and I make the inmates say their name and number, and I physically identify them by their face. MR. : All right. MR. : If that don’t work, all of this stuff is supposed to be annotated in the log, that bad count one, bad count two, SHU reports bad count three. Bed book count was identified. The next thing would have been, was to go back through the prior counts to see of the movement, of who was in or out, because if your count cleared here, at 10:00, you only had one out of the unit, which was Epstein. When he came back, that means your count should have went from - if it was 72 here - that’s telling me that it must have been 71. At - boom. So, it was 76 -- MR. Is that the 4:00 p.m. count? MR. -- yeah. It was 76. Then, at the 10:00 count, on the 9:30 count, it was 73. So, where did those three inmates go? 176 done inside of a unit, like SHU, the OIC is supposed to do it. If a Case Manager and Unit Manager, or a Counselor, moves the inmate on the unit, guess what? They're supposed to make that Sentry - (Indiscernible *00:35:49) PP-34 transaction in Sentry to make the appropriate move, MR. So, looking at these, do you believe that they're all -- MR. These all bad. MR. : == they're all bad? MR. Mm-hmm. A11. MR. : All of them? They’re all bad. All bogus. . All right. So, 4:00 p.m. through - UR. MM: The Control Center, R&D. It’s bad. : Okay. : Just a clarifying question. MR. MR. Can a person do a count - let’s just say they know someone is in a different unit - can they say, oh, I know the person is out of the unit, and I'm going to count them as part of my unit, and just give the count number. Are they EFTA00111873

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm allowed to do that, or -- MR. : No. MR. -- do they have to physically have to get _e es on them? MR. a. So, it’s only - who - the amount of inmates that are in their unit at that time. Correct. Okay. That’s it. All right. Let’s keep going on this. Thank you for that. That's hugely helpful. So, “Inmates’ cell mates are moved for various reasons, including but not limited to an incident in the cell, visits to court, legal library, medical, and recreation. On Friday, August 9, 2019, Epstein’s cell mate, Reyes, had court. It would not be uncommon for Reyes to be out of his cell for an extended period. Epstein had an Attorney session that day. Epstein’s Attorney was processed into the facility in the morning, and Epstein was brought down to the Attorney room.” And you said that that was pretty much seven days a week? With Epstein. = was not notified 179 A Correctional Officer assigned to the SHU would have been aware that Reyes’ - or any inmates - belongings were removed. At this time, the Correctional Officer should notify a Lieutenant, who would in turn brief was not notified that Reyes’ belongings were removed. advised that if he had known that Epstein was without a cell mate, he would have likely put Epstein on psychological observation.” But now you're saying you probably would have put him off -- I would have not put him on psych iy because I can’t. MR. Right. You would have put him in Fox -? WR. QR: =I would have probably put him - if he was already - if I would have known, between those hours of 1:50 to 4:00, I would say, keep him in the Attorney conference, because guess what? I've got a staff member right there. And where he was, there’s a room here, so we normally kept him in these first two rooms. So, you could see him. So, I would just say, hey, just have somebody stay there, and I would have hired somebody. I would have a CWO HUDMS fWwrNP RRR PR Swr re RRR RR Wwonmnu mnmry Le mrer WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP PRR RRP RRP RRR WeonyDwVfwrNro mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 178 that Reyes was released from court." And again, on that note, would have been the Ops Lieutenant that would have been responsible to tell you, for instance -- Yes. -- if someone heard -- If you would recall, he should have - because he know the - he knew the expectation. MR. Right. MR. So, by our previous conversation, they knew the expectation. But again, they chose not to follow the playbook. MR. a. Okay. “Typically, if an inmate is likely to be discharged or transferred following court, their property was retrieved from their cell, boxed and secured with a property form, by receiving and discharged staff. All items are normally accounted for, and inventoried. In order to enter the SHU, all staff not assigned there must identify themselves and sign a logbook, and then be physically escorted by a Correctional Officer. Alternatively, the staff can pick up inmate property at the Unit door. 180 hired anybody. 1°11 pay you overtime to sit on this guy until I got him - I would have kept him in Attorney conference, right there - until] I got him a cell mate. I wouldn't have had to put him on psych - you're not - that’s not - I apologize - I can't do that. MR. All right. So, this line where you said you would have likely put him -- : No. -- that’s not correct? No, I wouldn't have done . | el Okay. . : That's - because like I said in my earlier statement - if it would have been after the hours of operation, let’s say everybody - at 8:00, when he went back to the cell in SHU, and because I was still there, I would have said, no, put him in R&D. Because I got R&D staff there until 10:00 MR. Mm-hmm . MR. I would have called the AW. I would have called the Warden. And unfortunately, we would have the - somebody would have to come in - and we would have been EFTA00111874

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 181 a te than vetting a cell mate for him. Right. And it says, P| is not aware of any Lieutenants knowing that Reyes’ property was moved.” MR. : We didn't know. MR. : Okay. Well, know of. may have. He may have. But he didn't tell you. Of course. Right. He didn't tell me. “On Saturday, August 10, received a phone call from around 7:00 a.m.” No, that’s not accurate. Okay. I received the phone call from Lieutenant , I believe it was between the hours - approximately - 6:35, between 6:35 and 6:45-50. MR. : Okay. MR. : Somewhere in there. MR. : “And was told that Epstein was found unresponsive in his cell.” 183 WR. QM: § -- 1 thought we said on August 9th, he didn't work. MR. : He wasn’t there. 9th, he wasn’t there. All right. So, it’s supposedly -- So, from 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., who was there? IP WR. ae But, like, this thing, like, when saying he’s non-custody, because you can see these rosters -- WR. QM: So, was - so, the two - and the Activities Lieutenant was [I correct? WR. WM: See, let me - can I school you on something? MR. : Absolutely. Please. MR. : Let me just school you on something. . a: here. WR. WE: These rosters, you see when you printed this roster? You printed this roster here. That says, 06/02/2021. That's this year. I can guarantee you the roster that you On August Please. That's why we're PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 182 But it was who called you? . :_ Yes, it was. . : Okay. “QD inquired about Epstein’s cell mate, and was surprised to hear Py respond that Epstein did not a cell mate.” . :_ That is correct. : So, you immediately said, where is the cell mate? Yes. . Okay. Yeah. Now, this is, again, where I'm getting confused because in the report, they - again - say, “ worked a 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. shift on August 9, 2019 -- MR. | MR. : == and you're saying that's not_right? MR. : No. 2:00 to 10:00. MR. QM: «And did he work on August 9th, 2:00 to 10:00? August 9th, on -- I thought we -- -- Right here? He would have worked 184 don’t look like this back on the day the roster was printed, initially inputted. MR. : So, someone would have changed it? MR. QR: Somebody went in here and changed it. . a: MR. | I can tell you -- MR. : <= this is inaccurate, or the other was inaccurate? WR. QR: -- this is inaccurate. I can tell you why because this is how - because I was, like, , non-custody? why would he make sure that said non-custody? Now, , I temp prompted him to 11. I temp promote him to 11. MR. : Can you circle that? MR. : Because he couldn’t have been in the institution by himself. MR. MM: So, you think that he went in there and put in that (Indiscernible *00:42:09)? MR. : I'm not going to say that. MR. : But that’s not what -- But does that mean that - EFTA00111875

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 185 MR. | what I will -- MR. : -+ what it normally would say? WR. WM: No. Because he become non- custody until, I think it was when he got out of non-custody and became a Counselor, I believe that wasn’t until 2020. Not 2020. I think it was the last part of '19, going into ‘20, or something like that. He was still on Correctional Services. But the thing about this roster, all of these pages right here, any time you make a change, it tells you the date and time of the change. So, let's go here. Time change. Activities Lieutenant R. That was done on 08/09, C.P., who - you’ve got to find out who C.P. was. WR. SR: «But 08/09. prior to the incident. wR. WE: §08/09, 09. done in 9:09 a.m. WR. QR: §= (indiscernible *00:43:13 MR. : The Ops Lieutenant. It was | a took sick leave on that day, and -- . a: we should address with vR. MB: That's something you've got to do, from the time you printed one - look, when you printed one of these rosters, right? I can guarantee you, if you go back to the 583 packet, and print out the roster for 08/09 and 08/10 of 2019, it’s not going to mirror the same. It's going to be changed. It's not going to be the same. WR. WE: And do we have the ability to do that? MR. : Sure. MR. : To go -. MR. :_ It should be in the 583. : So, we -- The 583 for the incident -- : Yup. -- that occurred? Mm-hmm You understand? And that will have that =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr That was RPRRR oN Du 08/09. That was ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe 187 But that’s something that Re CWO HM fWwrNP roster in there? MR. :_ For Jeffrey -- MR. : Yup. 186 VR. I: § So, ME was sick leave. wR. MR: -- BE EE changed him on the roster on 08/09, at 8:58 a.m., on Friday, August 9. was relieving an Officer on 08/09, 09, but as you see, where you see N.C. at? MR. : MR. : NC. there. WR. MM: h, and it would have. So, somebody went in, at some point, and put - and if he put non-custody, was that somebody trying to cover up, like, hey, I had nothing to do with that? MR. QM: $I wasn’t in custody at that time. He put me in there because, you know, why would I do that? You’re a Lieutenant. MR. MM: So, it’s somebody trying to say, like, hey -- I don't know. -- I got -. -- I would have to -- Look into it. -- go through it. What are we looking for? Non-custody. It’s not I got -- -- Epstein's -- Mm-hmm . -- incident. Okay. Those two copies of that roster should be in there. WR. ME: Okay. go back and look at that. MR. QM: But you printed a couple weeks ago, it’s not going to say the - it should. WR. QM: So, up to - so, just to clarify - up to 08/09 that morning, at 8:58 m., before that time, it was — schedule? Good point. We'll Yeah. That means he called in and at_8:58 a.m. on August 9th, changed it over to a. MR. Correct. MR. : So, I wonder why - okay. All right. So, that is inaccurate. MR. : One more question. Sorry. MR. : So, go ahead. MR. : That C.P., can anyone enter EFTA00111876

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RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP PRR RP RRP RR COND WMH a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 189 C.P., or it’s what it was in the system? MR. And we did know that. This is on this. : Okay. Okay. Okay. Anyone enter C.P., or No. -- or is it -? Because when you log-in the Okay. It’s a system. -- it’s done by your PIV card roster program -- i P| Okay. No problem. That's : Okay. Thank you. All right. And it says is the one who did .m. to 6:00 a.m. shift. Correct. It says, “ED did not that Epstein required He believed she was 191 HN -«— ter claiming she didn't - if she's claiming she didn't know, and if you didn't specifically tell her, who should have told her? Or how should have she known? WR. QR: How she would have known is, is that, when she did rounds, she would have saw those cards. MR. : No, no, no. Okay. So -- MR. : She would have known that these inmates are high visibility. And the guidance was already out, so, it was disseminating throughout the Unit. So, the staff was aware. So, of course, probably in, you know, with her, we didn't have a good relationship, but regardless of the fact is, is that I made the Lieutenants aware of my expectations. MR. Mm-hmm MR. : So, even though I might not have told her because she worked the morning watch shift, and by 6:00, she would be gone. I wouldn’t see her. MR. Now, was that abnormal for her to leave before 6:00, before her shift is done? the 10:00 MR. MR. personally tell a cell mate at all times. =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 190 aware because he had informed his Lieutenants repeatedly, and instructed them to pass this message along, and convey the information among themselves.” Is that correct? MR. : “BD did not hold a formal all Lieutenants meeting regarding Epstein, or send an all staff e-mail with the Warden’s directive.” + Mn-hmm. MR : However, you did send emails with regard to -- MR. : -- the way that they were supposed to act, and their duties and responsibilities. Correct. And you'll send me that? Yeah. Okay. “He verbally ants on an informal and individual basis, as many as possible with whom he had the opportunity. On Saturday morning, August 10, 2019, oy ei early by -_ Now, as far as goes - 192 MR. QR: They was working 10:00 to 6:00. : Yup. : So, by the time I walked in MR. MR. the door, she would be gone. MR. But what I'm saying is, if she’s leaving before 6:00, is that -? MR. Now, before 6:00, that would be a problem. MR. : So, even, like, ten minutes before, is that a problem? MR. : Not really. MR. : Okay. MR. : Not really. Because if the relieving person gets there, because knowing the Lieutenants, some Lieutenants come an hour early. Some Lieutenants come ten, 15 minutes early. It's just whatever -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- happens. Sometimes the Lieutenant has to work late, because they have an incident, or they have administrative duties they have to finish after their shift, which is fine, but they are compensated for that. MR. : Right. Okay. “In the EFTA00111877

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD MmMYyrRe re Oo wc 193 SHU, 30-minute rounds need to be completed consistently, at non-uniform intervals, within a 40-minute timeframe. The purpose of these rounds is to ensure that good order is being maintained, there is no suspicious activity, and all inmates are accounted for and responsive. 30-minute rounds are documenting in TRUSCOPE, which serves as an electronic logbook. After a round is physically done, the Correctional Officer can log into TRUSCOPE and press a button, certifying that the round was completed. Unfortunately, sometimes Officers do not complete a 30-minute round or exceed the 40-minute threshold. TRUSCOPE also documents from what location, terminal the rounds are logged." MR. | right. WR. =: is aware of at least two terminals located in the SHU. The only way to determine if a 30-minute round was physically completed is to check the video surveillance footage.” MR. :_ That is correct. MR. : “There are two Correctional Officers assigned to the SHU on 195 afterhours, that Lieutenant should go up there and observe the count. WR. QM: No, but what I'm saying is, like, if a round is signed off on, by one person, but everybody in the Unit, nobody in the Unit did it, and not just the person who signed the round, but also everyone else is also responsible for that falsified round? MR. i MR. : Okay. MR. : Everybody -- MR. : It's the same thing for counts? wR. WM: -- yeah, it don’t matter. If you're on the roster, and you're assigned to that Unit, and a falsified document goes up, and you said, like, me and you count, I know we didn't count, but I sign that, and you sign it . : No, what I'm saying is -- . +--+ then we both -- : == what I'm saying is, if you sign it, I don’t sign it, but we're both responsible? WR. WBBM: Right. No. You're going to RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 194 morning watch, at midnight. SHU One and SHU Two. SHU Two is responsible for completing rounds.” They're both technically responsible. Correct? MR. : Right. MR. : And so, is the SHU Two usually the Officer-in-Charge? MR. MMMM: Right. So, basically what would have happened is, they’re supposed to, you know, because one has the key. So, I doa round, I come back, then you do a round. Same thing when they do the count. MR. a. Now, is it the same thing with counts and rounds, like -- WR. QM: No, no, I'm sorry, with the -- so, with a round, if rounds @ aren't being conducted, does that also mean that everybody in the Unit is to blame? Not just -- -- okay. Right, because -- So, it would be -- -- because it, in essence, 196 be responsible because you didn't sign it. But if I said, if I didn't sign it, then I'm going to tell you why. I said, we didn't do the count. I'm going to put a memo in. MR. al So, what I'm -- MR. : I'm going to let the Lieutenant know. It's a big -- : == S0-. -- that’s going to be a big situation. WR. ME: 1 quess what I'm saying is, like, all right, so, in these count slips iff , there's two -- Two signatures. -- two signatures. Correct. But there’s four people ER”: So, whoever -- : So, are the other two people that aren't working, if they didn't report it_-- MR. :_ Right. MR. : == they're also responsible? EFTA00111878

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP . 1 Yes. . : All right. Okay. , : And then, on the morning watch, there’s only two people in the unit. Right. So, they’re both complicit. And I know you said bad count, Officer should come down. How often should - I mean, a Lieutenant should come down - how often should Lieutenants be observing counts? MR. | Okay. MR. : In the SHU. about specifically for the SHU. WR. WE: Well, in the SHU? In the SHU, a Lieutenant should have been monitoring that - I believe that Ten South count. WR. QM: «Ten South. what about, like, where Epstein was, in regular SHU? MR. : Well, no, but we didn't implement that until after the Epstein incident. WR. MM: «411 right. So, up to August 10th, Lieutenants were not observing counts -- Let's talk 199 MR. i “The camera technician notified that he was working on the system earlier that week, but did not know specifics and was not informed that the cameras were not functioning. Since the -", so, you didn't know that any of the TRU cameras may have been out? . :_No. Okay. “Since the -", and who would have been - was he the one responsible for that? MR. : Yes. So-. MR. : So, if he’s notified that the camera is now out, how soon thereafter should he get that up and running? MR. : No. If he was aware that the camera system was down and was not working, he should have contacted me, and then, I would immediately contact the AW and the Warden because -- MR. | And in this instance -- MR. : -- that’s a Security situation. WR. :§ -- so, he didn't do that? in this instance, PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 198 MR. : -- they were simply taking the count -- Counting in Control. -- in the Control Room. . Bs That is Control. correct. VR. QR: «Okay. “GJ was aware that the camera system in the SHU was down. He left early on Thursday, when the discussion about the camera system would have occurred. Mr. BR -", what is mr. first name? ve. a: name. ae: Now, is he, like, aC.0. though? Or, like -- : No. He would be -- . : -- a BOP employee? . : == he’s COMTECH (Phonetic Sp. 200 . :_No. : All right. And would anyone else have known that a SHU camera was down? WR. QR: WE (Phonetic Sp. *00: 7 26 a. HE? And who is | Foreman. MR. : Okay. MR. : Over Facilities. MR. : So, those two people would have been the ones that knew this camera is out, and they should have notified you? MR. : Yeah. MR. : And they did not? That is I can't remember his first He would be the General ” Okay. : Do you know, at this point - and I'm not talking about at the time, but now - do you know what was down and for how long? I don't know. No? Okay. I can't remember. I don’t EFTA00111879

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 201 even - that’s - I don’t remember. wR. QM: Do you know if a camera in the SHU was ever down? MR. 1 Yes. MR. : Okay. What camera? MR. : I know that there were issues with the cameras because we had done a program review before then, and there was cameras down in Ten South. So, we had got those fixed. You know, in the -- -- in the individual cells. And then, there was a camera system that was down because I believe they was doing some type of maintenance on the ranges, or something like that, that everyone was aware of. That's all I can remember. Okay. And I don’t remember specifics and timeframes, but - wR. : a) right. But you don't know specifically if, like, for instance, the range that Epstein was on, that camera was out or not? have happened. MR. : Oh. MR. : Right? I think that’s the date of (Indiscernible *00:55:07). : Well, no, it says, = the Camera Technician, notified = that he was working on the system earlier that week.” He's saying that he left early Thursday, when the discussion about the camera system would have occurred. WR. WE: Would have. known -- WR. GM: «If there was a conversation. But you don't know that there was? MR. : No. MR. : Okay. Sorry. MR. : Because, like, in close out, or if there was something with the Warden that day, normally on Thursdays, at times, you know, it was for my - I have a disease. So, I would go for blood work on Thursdays, when I could, if an institution emergency, you know, but normally, on Thursday, I would leave early on Thursdays. I would take a half a day. So, he should PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 202 MR. MM: That, I don't know that for - . : You're not sure? . :-- yeah, no. . : Okay. But again, if it was, it would have been mn: - what did you say the last name was? ? Christopher J. . And how do you spell that last name? . Ll say that one more Perfect. Okay. Thank you. Just had a quick question. Who was “that conversation about, the discussion? You mentioned there was a discussion -- vr. -- no, you -- -- when that discussion would To go to my medical sppointeents So, if there was a meeting that was convened about the camera systems, I wasn’t present at that meeting. ao But whatever -- However, I know that a camera sroject was going on during that time, which Mr. QJ was responsible for installing the new - I don't know what - I can't remembering what you call it - but it’s a system, because our system was antiquated, so they was doing ner repairs. 50 -- Okay. -- - there was certain cameras down, ‘, certain areas of the institution. But he was actively working on that. : Okay. So. So, if there was a meeting, that you are not aware of, on Thursday, who would have been present for it? For a meeting with the It would have been with EFTA00111880

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO nm w RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP PRR RP RRP RR COND WMH a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 205 the Warden? wR. WM: Yeah. It would have been - I mean, the Warden would have known if someone had a meeting about the camera system being down, and then, probably the Facilities Manager, which is =, It would have been the AW of Custody, at that time, which would have been Ms. a. And of course, it would have been the Warden. WR. WE: Didn't you say it was actually somebody else? a was no longer the custody? wR. : os. HB. os. BBB was there, but_she had just got there. So -- MR. : Okay. MR. : == she was over another discipline. So, that would have been the meeting with the executive staff. WR. QM: Okay. So, it was the executive staff meeting. Would that meeting also have taken place if the cameras are still down on Friday? Would it have taken place on Friday, as well? WR. QM: «That would have been Friday, as well. 207 WR. QR: Some - I mean, they don't have the ability to monitor. MR. : Right. MR. : But, you know, of course, the ones in Ten South, you know -- WR. MM: Yeah, where they are live monitoring. MR. : Yeah. So, of course. wR. QE: | And do you know - and you don't know, though, even to this date, if a camera was, in fact, down? I can't remember. In fact? I don't know. Okay. No. That's fine. I was just going to ask, even if it wasn’t recording, do you know if it was, like, being a live monitor, or anything like that -- The live monitoring. -- or it could have been. But you're unaware? I'm unaware. Okay. Okay. So, “After =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 206 MR. QM: | But you weren’t involved with a meeting like that? . :_ No. . i. And you don’t know of a meeting taking place? MR. :_ No. MR. : Okay. Would it have taken place every day that the camera was down, or just the first day? MR. MBM: There would have been an update because the person that falls under that, the contact, is So, the AW over Facilities would have wanted an update, weekly report, as well as the Captain. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because that’s a Security issue. So, we would have wanted - but the camera system was down because of - I think it was some routine maintenance that they was doing anyway. MR. : Okay. MR. : So -. MR. : Now, would any Lieutenants or SHU staff have known that the camera was down? 208 receiving the phone call from fj on the morning of Saturday, August_10, 2019 notified Associate Warden , who informed the Warden. also attempted to call Institution Duty Officer, Nathaniel Yup. To Chaplin, and in the building, to get more information.” What does that mean_by, “In the building”? Do you know? MR. : So, basically, you know, it was just -- MR. | dl Like, the main number? MR. : -+ it was just a bunch of, you know, people that we tried to notify, I tried to notify. So, I think I notified Ms. , of course. She notifies the Warden. I notified the IDO. I said, hey, because inmate death, they needed me coming into the institution, because that’s one of their off times, so they needed to be making a - because they're going to be responsible for making certain calls to the Region. I notified the Chaplin, because Chaplin made sure, (Indiscernible *00:59:19) also, I believe I EFTA00111881

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO hr nm SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP w RPRRPR RRR a ee an Oe ee ee oe od Wr © Ww oo 209 informed them to cal] | (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:25), which was the Executive Assistant. I think or I may have called Mr. Johnson, the Attorney, for MCC. MR. : Okay. MR. : And I'm trying to think who else. MR. : No, that's fine. MR. : Was there. MR. : And it says that, “He went to the MCC, arriving before 8:00 a.m., approximately.” MR. a WR. : “Upon arrival, J screened in and retrieved his gear from the third floor. He went to the SHU and signed the logbook. He gathered any records pertaining to Epstein, including the 30-minute round logbook, the Attorney conference logbook, count slips, What are E-1s? So, all this stuff right and E-1s.” . : Okay. So, you basically, I walk through the building, I know the protocol, It is not normal. VR. : Oh, it’s not normal? MR. :_ It's not normal. No. MR. : And do you think that somebody removed things from it? WR. HE: No, I'm not going to make that accusation. I don't know. I would just say, that’s not a normal instances, that being working as a former OIC, being a Correctional Officer, and all of that stuff, that’s not normal. WR. QM: | What stuff is usually in there? wR. WM: =I can tell you, it would be his - all of the intake screening stuff that we do on the inmates, the expectations, the cell assignment things that the inmate is supposed to sign, the clothing issue forms. It would be 292s in there. It would be a - the SROs. It would also be the Psychology, where Psychology comes to see these guys, that those notes should be placed in there. WR. —. And none of that was in there? wR. a: None of that was in there. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 210 because what happens is, these things will come up missing, then you have no evidence. MR. = Okay. MR. : So, I secured count slips, the E-ls. I went to SHU. I got all of the logbooks that I knew where Epstein had been. I grabbed those logbooks. I went to SHU. I took his inmate SHU file from the Special Housing, plus all of the round sheets (Indiscernible *01:00:34). MR. : This actually says “He could not locate Epstein’s inmate file." Do you remember that? WR. WM: It was a file, but it had limited stuff in there. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, his actual file, yeah, it had his picture, had a couple things on there, but it wasn't anything in it. MR. a. So, when this says, locate a file,” you located the file, it was just a -- MR. :_It was empty. MR. : -- it was empty. that abnormal? And is 212 WR. QM: «And where is that file located? MR. ME: It’s supposed to be located in the OIC, right there -- MR. : Okay. -- in the OIC. When you say “The OIC," is that the SHU mere the OIC sits? MR. MR. : * and so, anyone could have had access to that? MR. es. MR. : And had you ever seen the file before that ume? MR. I would - no. MR. : Did you ever locate it after that time? 0. . So, it's likely that someone took documents out? If they should have been in there and they’re not in there, is that MR. Correct. MR. : == $0, someone likely - I'm not saying -- EFTA00111882

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213 that would have audited those files. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because they do the SROs. MR. : And did you ask him where the file was? . + Yeah. MR. : -- who did it, but someone likely did? MR. : In my belief, yes, those documents were purposefully taken. WR. —. And can you think of a reason why they would have been taken? MR. : I don't know, sir. MR. : All right. But you had never seen them before? MR. : No, sir. That was -- MR. : And who would be the -. MR. : -- that wouldn’t be my purview to go through, to audit those files. Who would be -- That's the -. -- the person to ask Of course. I called him. And what did he say? He didn't know. He had no knowledge. WR. QM: A11 right. So, he claimed he doesn't know -- rR CWO D SWwrNP =— ROW OHMS fwrNP RR wr -- anything about it. Because -. Did he ever say he looked RPRRRR We WN Re i — at the file before? MR. QM: No. No. I don’t remember him saying that. But when I called him that Saturday, because I had conversations with Lieutenant [MJ on that Saturday and that Sunday, because he was supposed to come to work that Sunday. So, once he found out about the Lieutenant -- situation with Epstein, because I had called . | dl Okay. him, and I said, hey, man, where is his inmate . : -- he would have been the one file? What are you talking about? I said, his 215 216 training. So, he tells me they’re doing the PT that next day, which was Sunday, he broke his leg. MR. QM: | Did he ever provide any kind of -- . : Or he injured his leg. : -- did he ever provide any documentation? RR a RPRRR oN Du RR co™ about that? WR. WE: That would have been the Lieutenant. MR. | a So, Lieutenant [i]? MR. Lieutenant J. Or the mre row a de ood SWwWNr Ow mnrr Se wr nm w nm Ww SHU file is not up there. X, Y, Z. So, I informed him of what happened. Sunday, I get a call that he broke his leg. And then, Lieutenant was out for, like, six months. And did he really break I wouldn’t know. Is there any reason to believe, or had you heard that he actually MR. Henn -mm . didn't? MR. : No? WR. WE: Again, he was supposed to be MR. : Hmm. He did provide in that training, like I said, right? That - something, but it was from a doctor. I mean, what do you call it? -- and that was sent through - he provided MR. : Ican look it up. documentation, but -- MR. | al when you go for reserves . : Okay. training. . : -- Ican't - I don’t - I'm Oh, yeah. not a doctor - so, I can't tell you what it is, What you do -- and I'm not going to call the doctor to verify Correct. if that was the situation, but basically, it -- you do it every month. said that he had a substantial leg injury that Yup. He was in military prevented him from coming to work. WR. ME: So, have you had any . + Right? conversations with him since? . : -- training. MR. MM: Oh, he came back - so then, . : Because of his military so MMMM went out in August - September, EFTA00111883 RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP Re CWO HM fWwrNP

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 217 October, November, December - I think he came back either December or January. Of 2019? Or 2020. Okay. Somewhere in that timeframe. Okay. So, he came back. went back up to SHU as the OIC. MR. a And ever any conversations about this matter? MR. MR: I had discussed it with him on the phone twice. WR. QM: «And tell me about those discussions. WR. WE: Those discussion. So, basically, I asked him about the inmate file. I had talked to him about, that Sunday, he alerted me that he was injured. When he came back, we had discussions that the staff, when he would - me and were - I go - I would say out of all the Lieutenants - me and we spoke a lot. I thought very highly of him. 219 I'm going to be honest - if I'ma third party, looking at this, somebody would say, I'm wrong. They would say, you failed to supervise your staff. You should have been auditing all of the paperwork. You should have been more responsive, or you should have been more responsible, and been in the unit more. You should have done more rounds. You should have did more training. You understand what I'm saying? MR. : Sure. MR. : But guess what? That's not my purview. As the Captain, Security, I did this, this, that, and the third. But everybody has a job to do in a prison. . > Mm-hmm. . : The Officers have a job, to count, maintain accountability, for the inmate population. The Lieutenants all oversee the staff, and make sure they're doing their jobs right. And then, ultimately, me as the Captain, over the Lieutenants, I have to reassure that they’re doing their jobs right. But when you go back and you start going through fine tooth combingthrough documents And he RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee PRR RRR Dw wr ed ool mel ro wo Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 218 And he would talk, and he was saying that he was having difficulties with the staff, and his other peers, because he, you know, the appearance was that he faked the injury, and -- MR. : Oh, so there was rumor -- MR. : -+ and not to be a part of what everybody else was going through, during that Epstein situation. So, he was getting it from the Lieutenants, and he was also getting it from the line staff. WR. MM: kay. So, on him, is there anything that you know - I know he wasn’t there those days - but if there’s anything there that_he did wrong? MR. MB: Hom. what - I being wrong, I'm not going to say he did something wrong or purposeful, you know, to say that, you know, to cause the death of inmate Epstein. Of course not. I'm not going to say that. MR. QM: Yeah, and I'm not saying I'm just saying -- But I'm saying -- -- it's, like - -- this is, in my opinion, if I'ma third party, if I'm a third party - and 220 that you thinking that, you know, your staff are doing the right thing, and now you finding out that people are fudging documents, and creating documents that - or counting inmates that wasn’t in the institution. MR. MM: Well, in this instance, it sounds like somebody removed -- MR. : And removed -- MR. : -- files. MR. : == for doing all of these things that, after the fact, you're, like, I can't believe this is happening. MR. MR: So, if someone removed files, though, I'm assuming if they're trying to cover something up, it would have happened on, like, the 10th, the 9th or the 10th. MR. : It would have b been -- MR. : Correct? MR. : == the 10th, as soon as they found out he passed away. MR. a. And well, did a lot of people have access to that room, at that time? MR. MM: «It was - at that time - it would have been - and it’s not a room. You're talking about for -- EFTA00111884

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP . : Wherever these -- . :__-- Epstein? . : -+ wherever this file was : That file. It's, like -- . : (Indiscernible -- when you come into the unit, you walk into the unit. WR. | A1) right. good transition. MR. :_ All right. MR. : I believe that this is a map of the SHU. This is a Right. Can you tell me what we're looking at here? Where are the staff located, and where would this file be? And then, where would Epstein's cell be, if you know? My understanding is that his cell was the closest to them, and approximately 15 feet away. MR. 1 Shit. MR. : But that's without ever putting eyes on it. MR. : Excuse me? MR. :_ It’s a Folger Adams key. MR. : Okay. MR. : It’s a prison key. MR. : But it’s not, like, a special name that you call it in the SHU? WR. WB: No. It’s the OIA number one's keys. WR. QM: Okay. But so, they physically have to open the - in order to get anyone in or out of the SHU - they physically have to open the -- MR. Pa they open it. MR. : -- and there's only one way in and out? MR. : Right. MR. : Okay. MR. : No, but I mean, yeah. Yes. Precisely. I'm trying to figure out - even this is orientation of me looking at this - is I'm trying to figure out because I know this is - this is_the floor. MR. MR. : There’s your stairs. trying to figure out, this is L. Yeah, that’s PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP . : Right. All right. . : Aside from video. : So, the office. Bird cage. Office. I'm trying to figure out which one is the entrance into the unit. MR. MN: Speaking of entrance into the Unit, my understanding is that there are two ways - two doors that you've got to go through. One is the Control -- Yeah. : == accesses, and then, the interior 1s what the SHU staff -- MR. Yes. MR. : == and how do they open it from the SHU staff? Is it -- -- by a key? : And what is the key called? Is ita gate key? MR. It’s a prison key. MR. : Oh, just a prison key. It’s not a special name? MR. a. Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:52). 224 Then you've got J. So, he was on L-tier, . > Mm-hmm. : So, L-tier, it wouldn't be like this, And then, you would have had the Officer Station, which, this would have been the Officer Station. And that’s going to the Officer Station. There would have been a file cabinet because the desks go around like so. WR. WB: Have you ever seen the video of the SHU? Where the Officer Station is. You're talking about when the The camera. The camera. -- so, that camera is by the And that shines from where 27 door, I believe. the entrance of 7B, of -- Yeah. -- that shines down like Is that -- And then, L-tier is right -- yeah. Is that pointed right behind the desk, to the left of the desk? EFTA00111885

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc MR. | | MR. : pointed at? MR. : MR. : Okay. MR. : So, that’s what I was showing you. So, that camera - in essence - that camera would be right there. WR. QR: So, it would be clearly showing that file cabinet, if we reviewed that camera? MR. Yeah. Okay. That's what you Yeah. Yup. MR. Okay. MR. So, that file cabinet sat right behind the desk. So, hopefully that's better orientation. And then, the cell, I think is L-tier, that Jeffrey Epstein was assigned to was 16. When you say “assigned to . | something like that. MR. : -- it sounds like, was he not in that_cell? ”. He was not there. He wasn’t in the right cell. 227 Because I just want to get an idea. wR. MMM: But I think it’s L-. I think he was found on L-tier. Right? Do you know that? | That’s my understanding. : Yeah. That's my MR. understanding, too. cell. MR. -- is L-tier. L-tier. . Again, I don't know the layout. There’s got to be somewhere where it says it on this. MR. | | I think it -. MR. : Because that’s G. Yeah. That, it should be J and L. So, when you come up the steps, I think this was supposed to be - that’s his assignment, this cell over here, but he was found in one of these cells over here. MR. Now, do you know why? Did you ask that_question? MR. Because what they were doing consistently is, is that when we do cell rotations, which is supposed to be done between every 30 days. Okay? a: Mm-hinm . RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 226 WR. MM: | He was in a different cell than_he was assigned? MR. :_ You didn't know that? MR. No. Well, tell me about this. So, where -? So, is this the first time that he was_ever not in the right cell? MR. He was not in the right cell, sir. After we went back and we started looking at the Sentry paperwork and all that stuff, that inmate was not in the right cell for six days. So, that mean -- vR. WM For six days, he was in the wrong -- MR. -- so, basically, he was assigned to this cell, he died in this cell. MR. But for six days, he was going to the wrong cell? So, it wasn’t, like, just the one day he was found dead? MR. Right. So, they had him quartered over here, but it was inmates already over there. And then, you understand what I'm saying? But he was found in this cell. MR. I don’t understand when you say -- WR. MBM: Wait. Let's point to the 228 WR. J: They may have moved the inmates, but they weren’t changing the PP-34 transaction in Sentry. MR. All right. So, what -. MR. : So, the inmates were moved, right? Physically, but the Sentry paperwork would never be done. MR. : So, he was supposed to be moved, they just didn't follow with what their necessary paperwork? MR. No. He was in this cell. They must have moved him in Sentry. They must have moved him, right? But he - when the Sentry assignment came up - it showed that he was still remained assigned to that cell, instead of him being physically found in this cell. MR. —. But what I'm saying is, like, it sounds, like, they were supposed to move him, they just never did the paperwork to say that he was moved? MR. : Correct. MR. Okay. So, it’s not, like, I mean, I guess they technically put him in the wrong cell because he wasn’t technically assigned to that, but the move was supposed to EFTA00111886

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 229 happen, they just didn't follow with the administrative part of it. Right. vray So, you - : == $0, | aside from the administrative failure, is there any other suspicion about the fact that he wasn't in the assigned cell? WR. MB: It was, and also, the suspicion was, why did he have so much linen? And so many t-shirts, and so many blankets. No. We're taught you get one blanket, maybe two. WR. | And what -. MR. : You get one, two, until you get two t-shirts, two boxers, two pairs of socks. WR. QM: Was that question asked? I mean, did you ask, like, I, or any of the SHU staff since then? Of course. And what did they say? I mean, they're going to be, like, I don’t - “how would I know? . : Now, is -. . :_ Kicking on the door . : Is having those extra linens, and those extra, you know, boxers or whatever, is that a security issue? MR. 1 Yes. MR. : And why is that a security issue? WR. MMM: Because ultimately, that gives the inmates the materials to be able to make homemade fashioned and improvised nooses. MR. : Okay. MR. : Or they’1] build a TT, and use it as escape paraphernalia, just like they did in Chicago. Tie that stuff together, they broke out the window, and the inmate had a rope. That’s why we don’t give inmates excess clothing. WR. MM: Okay. Now, as far as this file, though, you never found out where So -- -- documents went? I couldn't find them. Okay. And when we were RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 230 MR. | at Who was responsible? MR. : But you know what? That happens all the time, sir. Because I will tell you, I could clean out SHU. I’ve done it. And they could say, I’ve went up there physically, supervisors going in there, cleaning out the SHU. I think I did it three or four times. Well, and then, less than a week, I could go do rounds, and inmates got all the stuff back. MR. ME: «who was responsible for giving it_to them? WR. MM: The staff because staff have the keys. WR. ME: And they just say, you need more, here you go? MR. : Here you go. MR. : Well, would the staff do it, or would the Lieutenant do it, or -? MR. MB: «=I don’t think Lieutenants would do it. MR. MR. :_ It’s more of a staff. MR. MR. : Because they don't want to hear an inmate crying. 232 saying people that had access to this room, was it just a flood of people at that point, coming out? MR. MMMM: | Anybody that - the people who would be most would know about those files would be the SHU staff. The SHU staff. And the Lieutenants. Okay. Of course. And what would be in those Files that possibly people wouldn’t want people to see? MR. MB: =I mean, the only thing, I mean, that would be in there, like I said, 292s, because you’re supposed to do them every day. MR. | ad And what are 292s? MR. : 292s basically are, it shows the inmates activities in the unit, daily. It talks about if the inmate - any time the inmate is out of the SHU time, out of cell time, it’s annotated on the 292. When the inmate showers, when the inmate exercises, when the inmate eats. Every meal. EFTA00111887

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 233 WR. GM: «Now, in your opinion, would it be -- MR. : For a 24-hour period. MR. -- would these documents be missing because they were potentially falsified, or because they might show something about the death of Epstein? WR. MR: «It would show if he wasn’t taking meals. And they didn't report it. It would show if the inmate wasn’t afforded any outside recreation time. Or any out of cell time. But we know he wasn’t getting that because he was going to Attorney conference. MR. — Okay. MR. : But those forms, no, they wouldn’t show that the inmate, you know, all of that stuff is just administrative stuff that we track for every inmate. MR. a. That’s why I'm just trying to figure out what would be the purpose of taking those files? MR. Is there a possibility the file was never updated? I don’t believe that. 235 WR. QM: «Yeah. Sunday. That’s what I'm saying. Do you know, up until this point, though? Like, so, if the file is gone, he’s now there for, what? Almost two months. MR. :_(Indiscernible *01:19:43). MR. Would it be one person responsible, or -- . : Right. : -- whoever is there on Sunday? WR. WB: She wouldn't have known. So, I mean, she wouldn’t have - that’s something, unless you're the full-time SHU OIC, that you would be cognizant_of. MR. MR. : Okay. She wouldn't know that. MR. So, there’s that. MR. Question for you. If he was put on suicide watch, or psych observation, would that file be moved with him? WR. QR: When the inmate goes on suicide watch, they create another 292 because he’s not in the unit. So, that 292 goes down with - and is put on the door. Right? So, that copy of that 292, yeah, that’s supposed to go RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee PRR RRR Dw wr ed ool mel ro wo Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 234 MR. QM: «And who would be updating the files? Just anybody in SHU? MR. That would be the OIC. Every Sunday. You’re printing out all the 292s, then you put them in the file. MR So, on Sundays. one person that typically -? MR. MM: The OICs. Normally, the OIC on morning watch would do that. They would print out all of the 292s, and they would put them all in each file. MR. Do you know, at this time, around the August 9th and August 10th, who would have been responsible for those files, and printing those out, and putting them in? Is it MR. QJ: That would have been either the - that would have probably been the SHU staff - it would have been either, it would probably be Tova Noel. MR. Noel would have been? MR. : Because she was assigned as the - that would have been one of the responsibilities of the SHU One. But that would have been on Sunday. 236 to psychology, and the copy is supposed to go back to Correctional Services, to put in his file, to be maintained that, yeah, he was on suicide watch. This would happen. You know, you tell the story. So, yeah. Yeah. It would - all of that_information would be in there. MR. No. But I'm just asking, is it possible it went to psych observation or wherever that unit is, and never made it back? MR. :_ It’s a possibility. MR. But then, he’s made there since - but it should - like you were saying - it should have been constantly updated. So, from July 30th through August 9th or 10th, there should still be extra stuff in there. Correct? MR. MR. MR. All right. So, let's keep going here. expressed to that the staff admitted to her they did not complete rounds, the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. counts." And that, so, and that’s all they admitted to, was those two? Not the ones prior to that? rm EFTA00111888

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oe od eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 237 WR. MM: Right. So, when I talked to HHMM on the phone, that’s what he told me on the phone. MR. : Okay. MR. : He said, hey, Cap, the staff told me they didn't do the rounds. All right. . And I said, okay. MR. : And that, “Officer Thomas entered Epstein’s cell without supervision.” Now, what does that mean? MR. That means that any time - especially in the Special Housing Unit - any time that cell, it should have been - especially after hours - a Supervisor should have been present. MR. a. When he went in to do the life-saving measures, right? MR. + Yup. MR. : Now, do you know if - was Thomas and Noel, were they together, and he walked in, or was she, like, down the range? MR. I believe she was on the down, she was off the tier, and he probably went to go do - doing the breakfast carts, and 239 WR. QM: I've seen a lot of stuff at MCC, as far as with security protocols. I've written staff up for violation of security protocols. That instance right there, what he did, wouldn't be uncommon. MR. Okay. MR. : Because you try to tell people how to react in an emergency situation, and guess what? Everybody is not going to say how they’re going to react. But we do tell them, if you’re in the Special Housing Unit, you need to wait until a Supervisor comes on the scene before you pop a door in SHU. Now, do you know how -- Period. MR. : -+ he was found? Was he hanging? -- wR. WE: © don't know how he was found. WR. WM: | -- was he on the floor? No? MR. MMMM: Don’t know. I didn't read the autopsy report. I don't know. MR. aml Okay. MR. : I only know what the news had RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS mmr =e Wh 25 238 by the time he comes down the tier, and he comes through - so, that means he didn't do a round, because he would have saw him. Right? So, that means he’s going around, because that's how feed, as soon as we come on, we don’t go this way. We go this way. So, that cell that Epstein was found in, I think it’s, like, the second from the in. And so, it’s, like, the last cell, and then he was in that next cell. Right? So, they come around the whole area, and when he get to his cell, you observe the inmate unresponsive. So, what you're supposed to do is, you call Control. Control, hey, I’ve got an unresponsive inmate. Send staff to SHU. Or I’ve got an unresponsive inmate, please state the medical emergency, send someone to SHU. to Ops, hey, I need you come to the Special Housing Unit. Boom. You come up there. You've got a staff because you don’t know if it’s a rouse. You just popped down the door and just go in there. You're putting yourself in jeopardy. MR. a. Now, does this create suspicion for you, the fact that he went in there by himself? 240 reported. WR. MM: kay. It says, “Epstein was placed on the floor to administer life- saving efforts,” and that’s why I asked, I didn't know if he was still hanging -- I don't know. -- he took them off. All informed Associate Warden about what Officers Noel and Thomas admitted to I. had concerns about the whereabouts of Epstein’s cell mate. Some of his staff were under the impression that Reyes was released from the SHU, which later confirmed was not true.” Was not true or was true? You confirmed that -? MR. MMB: He wasn’t released from SHU. He wasn’t released from SHU. He was released? He was released from court. Oh, okay. . He wasn’t released from the institution. Usually, it’s from court. MR. Oh, okay. So, what they're trying to say here is that you guys didn't release him. He went to court, and they EFTA00111889

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm released him, he never -- MR. That's right. MR. -- he never came back. MR. He never came back. MR. Okay. But he was released from custody? MR. Yes. He was released in custody when he went to court -- MR. Gotcha. MR. :_-- that day. MR. All right. So, this is worded weird. “The purpose of the 3:00 and the 5:00 a.m. count is to physically count and confirm each person is in their cell. There were no entries of counts in TRUSCOPE the entire night. If technology is down, the Correctional Officers also have the option to document the count on a hard copy form. Although there are no electronic records of counts, hard copies must have been retained.” MR. : That is correct. MR. Is it odd that they didn't enter it into the TRUSCOPE that night? WR. WM: No, it’s not odd. Because I told you, on occasion, the staff member would 243 WR. QR: When I input, when I - and then, I have to counsel them, where is my stuff weekly? So, I’ve counseled them. I’ve got counseling's for that. MR. a. Did you ever counsel either Thomas or Noel? MR. No. I don't know if I have a counseling on them, MR. aa Okay. MR. : No, but before this incident, but no. MR. It says, “All inmate phone calls in the SHU are monitored, and inmates have limited access to phone calls. All calls should be recorded. was not aware of any issues or complaints with Epstein, related to phone calls. On Saturday, August 10, 2019, was told that Epstein made a phone call at approximately 7:00 p.m. on the evening of Friday, August 9, 2019. It is uncommon to make an unrecorded phone call in the SHU, and IJ would advise against it because calls should be surveilled. Inmates can make a recorded phone call in the Lieutenant's Office, where it is documented in PRR RR Se ee a RPRRR COND mreNyre rmrROow mrer WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP RR eo PRR RRP RRR OOD fwr mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 242 say, oh, I don't have access to TRUSCOPE, but however, they are given hard copies of the count slip, which continues for the 24-hour period. | Right. Yeah. : So, you’re continuing to do MR. MR. your rounds. And then, at the end of the rounds, at the end of the week, this is how it’s supposed to happen. Because I actually put this in place, because that was one of the vitals that we had during our program review, which we got a hit on. At the end of the week, the Lieutenant is supposed to get them, and he will audit them, to make every sure all of your rounds was conducted in the 40-minutes irregular. If it’s not, that staff member is identified, and then, they're given counseling. So, we're trying to stop staff, you know, we try to encourage staff to do the right thing, but if they're not, we're trying to catch it on our level, before it gets reported out. So, even then, you know, the Lieutenants there was sign put up there that it wasn’t getting done on a regular basis. MR. Mm-hnm . 244 a monitored logbook. In the SHU, Correctional Officers are not permitted to give inmate phone calls, but a Unit Task Team member, or the Chaplin can take the inmate to the Lieutenant’s Office and make a call. is not briefed on phone calls in the SHU generally.” But_in this case, you said that you did advise JM that he could. And where did the call take place? WR. WM: Well, because I know between that time, we had installed a jack. MR. : Okay. : In SHU, in order to do the MR. outgoing calls. So, they could actually do those calls in SHU. Though, before the Chaplin, of course. So, if you had a SHU inmate, he didn't have to bring the inmate all the way down to the Lieutenant's Office to do a MR. call. : Okay. MR. : So, there was a jack up there in the - I can't remember where it is. I'm sorry. MR. QM: | It’s near the shower room? EFTA00111890

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 245 WR. MJ: Yeah. Something like that. But so, we actually had the ability to have that outgoing call capability for those inmates in SHU. Because you can't bring them down to the Lieutenant's Office. WR. : Okay. MR. So, you could do an outgoing call capability in the SHU. MR. a. Okay. And so, you did approve that_call, and then, just log it? MR. Yes. MR. Okay. And take care of all that? WR. WM: Yes, Idid. And that was something that Mr. IMM said, and Mr. was, actually, I believe he was the HE: And again, what is the HEB: The Institutional Duty MR. | el And what does that mean? MR. : That means is that every week, for a seven-day period, normally, people with a grades of just 12 and above, 12, 13s, 247 general population that should be addressed by the Unit Team or Correctional Services, and stuff like that. And so, that’s what they do. MR. Okay. And then, this concludes, wholeheartedly emphasized that he and his staff at MCC did their best to supervise, safeguard, and ensure the protection of Epstein and all inmates effectively. His staff is aware of the seriousness of the investigation into Epstein’s death.” Right. Now, as far as what I just read you, I know it was over the course of two hours, but - I mean, four hours - but is there anything else you told the FBI or the OIG that wasn't included in this report? MR. Yeah. MR. And what was that regarding? WR. MME: 1 talked about that, when I, it was brief in there, but I talked about Lieutenant actions. Talked about that, one) she didn't do physical rounds in the unit because, as I said, I went into TRUSCOPE, because I wanted to know, because I did all 100. MR. 100? MR. Officer. RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP RR eo PRR RRP RRR OOD fwr mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 246 would be the Institutional - or 14s - would be the Institutional Duty Officer. Right? So, that means they go around, and they check all of the institutional - that they're taking calls after hours, from Correctional Services. They're reporting certain stuff to the Region. They're doing rounds in SHU. They’re doing rounds throughout the institution, in all the areas of the institution, and the accumulated report, which is given to the Warden for their review, about the daily operations of the institution during that week. Also, a part of that is SHU rounds. You know, they make sure that SHU rounds, everybody that’s supposed to do rounds within a week, you have to do them, or you get notified, and then you notify that Thursday or Friday, and you're supposed to go do your rounds. By the close out. You only have to do it there once a week. So, that's just part of the duties. But they bring the report, they create a report of the total operations. Any incidents that occurred. The counts in SHU, if they was bad. Anything that was going on in Food Service, or if they observed certain instances during the - in 248 this within the time that I got to the institution, I pulled up TRUSCOPE, and I can actually go in, and I get to see where they're logging in and doing rounds because once I pull up those reports, because the two I verify off of, I pull those reports up, I can show where the computer terminals are. And all of her rounds was done from the Lieutenant's Office. MR. Okay. I thought - so -- MR. : Because ou - MR. | -- — - aside from the bad count, where she should have went - she should have, even with the bad count, she should have been there, observing an actual And what count? : No, no, no. What she should have done is then done rounds. MR. : Oh. MR. In the SHU that night. So, between 10:00 and 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. Well, any time after 12:00 a.m. EFTA00111891

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ee oll ood Wher © Wo 249 to 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. There was no rounds. All of the rounds were done from the Lieutenant's Office. MR. Well, if she did - I think we do believe that she did conduct a round at 4:00 a.m. MR. Okay. MR. So, she actually physically went into the SHU at 4:00 a.m. -- MR. + Okay. MR. : -- and spoke with them. And then, potentially even came back, and checked in a little while later. UNKNOWN MALE: Dude, it’s been a while. I got a little busy. MR. Thank you, sir. And so, if she did that one time, at the 4:00 a.m., possibly another check-in ten or 15 minutes later, would that be sufficed for whatever her duty and responsibility was? MR. : Well, that means, if you sat there and you did all your rounds, so, I did all of my rounds at the computer office. MR. And never went -- MR. : In the computer 251 WR. QR: So, that means they can go on a floor, and they don’t have to go log into both computers on the floor, as long as you log into one on the floor, you're good. That’s the policy. WR. GM: And is that just to show that they are physically there, and they’re not MR. MR. : -+ falsifying the rounds? MR. :__There is. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, you just can't just sit at the desk, and say, I did all the rounds. MR. : I'm going to investigate the (Indiscernible *01:34:05) of what the Lieutenant rounds entails. MR. You can ask again, if you Go ahead. (Indiscernible *01:34:09). WR. MM: =I don’t remember if you did. I apologize if you answered it already. When a Lieutenant has to do a round in a - let’s say any tier - and let’s say the SHU, what does that entail? What (Indiscernible *01:34:19)? MR. They’re supposed to go door want. RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr MRRP RRR Re Pow aOAUTH nm i) mre re WW = Ww Re CWO HM fWwrNP R Re PRR RRP RRR Oo OUD wr mre reo 250 (Indiscernible *01:32:56). MR. -- and she never - she was supposed to go to the Control Center, and actually do the counts from there, right? MR. MMM: Well, you’re supposed to take - yeah - one of the counts. So, normally, we would take the 3:45 count or the 5:00. Either one. You could take one of the counts. It don’t matter which one you take. You've just got to take one. The 12:00, the 3:00, or the 5:00. Right? You've got to take a count. You've got to go through, go do a round in SHU. A round in SHU. So, you have to go, actually, go physically to the unit. And then, you're supposed to do rounds throughout the entire institution. So, if I'm at the Lieutenant's desk, and I say that all my rounds was done from this one terminal, because you’re actually supposed to go in, I provide it in card readers. MR. QM: So, they're supposed to - when they do a round there - so, they're supposed to log it in from the unit? MR. Pe that terminal. MR. : Okay. 252 by door, just like I explained to you before. You're supposed to go in the unit, go on the tier, and you're supposed to walk and look at every cell. MR. QR: | And what'd he saying, he just - to clarify - he wants to make sure it’s the Lieutenants that are also supposed to do MR : Not just the staff. And is that - and again, for clarification, I apologize, but it’s so much, we've got to dissect, you know, we're going to have to digest what you told us, and listen to it again - but is it every shift, a Lieutenant should do that? MR. MMM: Yes. Every shift, in the 24- hour period, rounds have to be conducted by a Lieutenant. In SHU. MR. And so, if Lieutenants are telling us that they don’t think that that's part of their duties, they’re supposed to do just rounds -- MR. :__ They’re wrong. MR. -- of staff, and is that EFTA00111892

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 253 policy that says -- . : -+ that they need to do . : Yeah. MR. : So, and if they’re telling us that, are they lying to us, or are they just_-? WR. MMMM: I think just think they're unaware or confused. MR. : Okay. MR. : I really do. If it says that a Lieutenant will perform a round in the Special Housing Unit, once on their shift. WR. a. And then, and that means an actual, not a round to check in with the staff, but a round -- No. That’s a -- -- to actually looking at PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du mre row -- round to walk around the mrm wr : So, in this matter, when you" re looking at these 4:00, 10:00 p.m., 12:00 , 3:00, and 5:00, which - on our duty mre oe PC unit, that was on the third floor -- Okay. -- you was responsible for doing a “round in " the PC unit. WR. QM: «And are you aware if HMM or Durant, they were there? Do you know if either of them are aware that they needed to do rounds of inmates in the SHU? Yeah, they knew. : Okay. Either one of them would have : =f Okay. So, I would say, normally, when I was the Operations Lieutenant, I would have sent the Activity, hey, go to SHU, go knock out the round. WR. MM: So, Durant, probably, would have been the one there? WR. QM: And then, for QR, 1 would have sent up there. wR. : All right. So, or should have done a round. Okay. And it doesn't have to be - so, when you're saying a round, are you talking about the counts or Re CWO HM fWwrNP 254 roster, on both August 9th and August 10th - which Lieutenant should have conducted rounds? Okay. So, on -- : With the inmates. -- on August 9th, [- HM should have done a round in SHU. WR. GM: «But what, approximately what time? MR. QM: It’s going to be from 1000 2200 hours, to 06. So, the day before - - -- for August 8th -- So, that means -- -- 2200. -- she would have done ” Okay. or Durant would have done them, So, I don't know who would have done them on that day, and especially since we didn't have a SHU Lieutenant, they should have done a round in SHU. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because just like we had the 256 the rounds? It could have been any round, because rounds are 30, it would be 30-minutes or so -- MR. : Right. MR. : == are you talking about one of the main counts? MR. MBB: So, just like a Correctional Supervisor, a Lieutenant, is supposed to make a round in SHU. WR. QM: «I know, but what - I just want to make sure we're clarifying the difference between the 30-minute round and the - because you said they should have conducted one of the 4:00, 10:00, 12:00 -- MR. :_ That’s a count. MR. : == that’s a count? So, are they supposed to conduct a count, or just one of the reqular 30-minute rounds? MR. : No. On every shift, within a 24-hour period, a Lieutenant is supposed to make a round in SHU. MR. : A round. MR. : A Lieutenant. would say a Lieutenant. WR. SR: Yup. So, not -- That's why I EFTA00111893

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD ee oe od wm Se wrN Pr CO Ww Cc 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 257 WR. QM: It specifies to a - because I can't say the Operations, the Activities, the Admin. No. A Lieutenant. So, that’s why we get by on day watch because you have the assigned Lieutenant in the unit, that’s going to make the said round. MR. : Okay. And so, when -- MR. :_Or day watch. MR. : -- so, when ( went to - at 4:00 - to the SHU, she should have conducted a round of the inmate -- MR. :_ Of the entire Unit. MR. : == not just checked in with the staff? No. She should have made a . And then, that’s what I wanted to clarify a round versus count. Because that could have happened any time in between - you know, for these people - any time in between any of the counts, at any time they could have showed up and said, let’s doa You understand? MR. : So, not only -- MR. : So, he'll do -- MR. : -- is he doing it, but also one of the Activities or Ops Lieutenant is also doing one? WR. : No. If MBB is in there, he’s the one to do that round. MR. : And then -. MR. : He’s going to do the round, because he’s in the Unit all day. WR. QM: | Right. And he’s actually physically in the Unit, when he’s there? MR. : Mmn-hmm. Yes. That's his place of dut MR. a. All right. So then, the, you know, the Ops or the Activities Lieutenants, they don't need to then go to the . : No. . : -- and do rounds on that . :_No. . : It’s only when he’s not there? hmm. Real quick. Okay. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RR i) PRR RP RRR Wonymnufw 258 MR. MJ: And when she made that round, she just sees the person, she doesn't have to talk to them? MR. MMMM: You walk around, and if it’s at night, you’re going to take and shine your light in there, because you're not doing a count. So, as Correctional Officers, you know, over the years, you're taught to look at certain things ina cell. When I shine that light in there, I'm shining, I make sure, because normally inmates will move their foot or move their leg, or arm, or leg, so I would count flesh when I see flesh. I could check the windows real quick, or if they got stuff in hanging, that’s restricting my view, I could correct it at that time, hey, take that down, hey you, so and so, get up, take the covering down. That's doing an effective round. And you do that for every cell in the block. MR. : What about when the SHU Lieutenant is on duty, is he the one that's doing the rounds? MR. : Yeah. No. No, no. Officers are doing the rounds. So, when he does his rounds, it’s normally with a status report. . | ae MR. : Okay. And then, obviously, he’s only there in the day, right? He’s not there at night? MR. : Right. MR. : So, whoever the Ops Lieutenant is at night, always needs to go do it. MR. MM: Got to do go a round. Yup. Yeah. MR. =. that’s what you meant when you said ME didn't conduct a round, you're talking about, she didn't actually do the inmate round? MR. MMMM: © Right, because then, she probably would have probably seen the inmate in distress, or -- Right. -- something like that. And do you know anything about when Epstein actually died versus when he was found? MR. :_No. MR. : Okay. MR. : I heard it was hours before. EFTA00111894

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 261 WR. MM: Okay. Where the SHU staff are located in the map that you just drew MR. hmm. 1 Mm- MR. : == could they see into Epstein’s cell from there? WR. WB: No. But you could see, like, if the lights was on, you know, so, if I'm standing down by the Officer’s Station, I could look up on the tier, and I could look down, and if the lights are on, I could definitely see if the light_was on in the cell or not. MR. About how big are the windows of the doors? wR. WR: =I would say they are probably like this. About that? Okay. So -- -- about, like -- -- and then -. -- 24 inches by, like, ten inches? MR. + Yeah. MR. | Or something. MR. : Something like that. 263 MR. | MR. : Have you heard that they were sleeping on this shift? MR. I heard that, and what camera footage I saw, I could physically observe them sleeping. WR. QE: So, did you see them both sleeping? MR. | MR. : So, you did actually review the video? MR. I saw - I did see that video. MR. Okay. You did. And you saw both of them asleep? Do you know about how long they were sleeping? WR. | = can't remember that. MR. : Sure. And is that a big MR. : That is a very big problem. MR. : Okay. MR. : Imean, my thing is, is that overtime, or you was mandated to work another time. When I was a Correctional Officer, guess what? I'l] go get on the tier, I'll go do problem? I understand that, you know, you worked RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 262 And they’re always VR. SE: | Okay. . Yes. : There’s nothing that covers them, or -? MR. aa. We do have the ability to close, like, when we have an incident on the tier, we have an unresponsive inmate, or -- Yup. -- we were giving medical, you know, if we’ re doing anything that deals with the inmate specifically, we'll block those other observation windows off, so the inmates can't see. WR. QM: «Now, when the staff are doing an overnight, the early morning watch, from zero, from 12:00 a.m. and through 8:00 a.m., are they allowed to sleep? MR. : No. You can't sleep. MR. : So, if the SHU, if they're in the SHU, can one sleep while the other stays awake? . : No. . : So, no one is allowed to 264 rounds. I would just stay walking in the unit. You know? It’s nothing wrong to get on the internet. But between that time you're on the internet, you need to shut it off, and go do rounds. If that's the way you stay awake at night, or do your OIC duties. Audit the - what they’re told to do - audit the bed book. Audit the - make sure all the 292s is done for the previous shift. You know, do all the stuff that's mandated on your watch as you're supposed to do, then do those functions. will keep you awake. That Yeah. If you're doing the work. Were they allowed -- Do you -- -- do you know if either in this instance - Noel of these individuals, or Thomas - were on mandatory overtime? MR. QM: Noel was. I believe she was going from evening watch to morning watch, and I believe that Thomas came into work that as overtime. r. a: Now, Noel was mandatory EFTA00111895

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 265 overtime, though? She didn't -- MR. : Yeah. She was a mandated. I think she was mandated because if you see here, she was - her shift was 4:00 to 12:00. Right? And then, if you see here, as TO - Noel overtime. So, if you go here, it’s going to show, go to SHU One. Yeah. So, basically, if she - yeah, it says, yeah - if she was SHU One, had hired her on 05/19. So, it doesn't show if she was mandatory, or whatever. MR. So, it could have voluntary? MR. | could have been voluntary. MR. : Okay. Okay. Great. And the last thing I want to ask you about, and then I'l] turn it over to Lyeson. Here’s an e- mail that was sent out on 07/30/2019, from a Do you know who that is? MR. : . That sounds -- : I think it’s -- MR. : -- I think Ms. I - hold on - she works in Psychology. MR. Yeah. UR. And it says, “Inmate Epstein, number 76318-054, is being + Mm-hmm. . -- it gives me an option - in my e-mail at least - do you want to send a read response? MR. :_No, it’s different -- MR. : Or not. MR. : -- like, on mine, how I got mine set up, I could see the e-mail message. You know you can do that, right? Like, on my mine, like, when my emails come up -- MR. : Yeah, yeah. MR. : -- I can read what it is without actually clicking on it. MR. a. So, there’s a ton of people on there that it doesn't say “Read.” MR. : Right. MR. : Do you think that they actually didn't see this e-mail, or didn't actually read it? MR. : I mean, I believe it. MR. : So, are a lot of BOP employees, then, not reading their emails? MR. + Yeah. MR. : So, if it doesn't “Read” =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 266 taken off psych observation, and needs to be housed with an appropriate cell mate. Do you recall getting that at all? MR. So, “At 07/30, inmate Epstein is going to be taken off of psychological, and needs to be housed with an appropriate inmate.” I probably did. Yeah. MR. =. Now, can you flip over - you're going to see all, like, the Lieutenants and everybody in there. If your Lieutenants received this -- MR. : It would have said “Read.” MR. -- $0, do they have to click on a - do they have, like, for me, I can say, like, do I want to send a response or not? MR. a. they have to click on it. MR. : Right. So, if they don’t click on it, they could still have read it? mR. Zn," MR. : And it wouldn’t say “Read response"? MR. Mn-hmm click on it to read it. MR. Do you know what I'm saying? So, like, if I open an e-mail, it gives 268 You would have to on there, you believe that some of these Lieutenants actually may not have seen that e- mai? MR. | a MR. : Okay. That's fair enough. WR. QM: And that’s fair. Because I know, if you look at mine, like, I can actually monitor emails, so you don’t know if I read, if I seen it. Well, that’s kind of my Is that, like -- Yeah. Ihave. Yeah. . : == you can read it without actually it showing that it was read. MR. : Yes. I can do it. MR. : So, that’s what I'm saying. So, in this case -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : == do you think that, just because it says -- MR. : Yeah, because, like, (i read it. read it. read it. SHU EFTA00111896

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 269 staff. The AW read it. I'm just looking at all of the Lieutenants. Lieutenant Durant read it. The Warden read it. (Indiscernible *01:47:41) read it. So, yeah, there was a few Lieutenants that actually read it. MR. Okay. But just because it says that they didn't read it, doesn't mean they necessarily - like you - they could have had something -- . : Right. MR : -+ Set up where it doesn't even show that they read it. MR. : Right. MR. All right. Before I turn it over, can you just - just so we know what documents - can you just initial and date the top of each of these sets of documents that I gave you? MR. + Yeah. Right here? MR. Yeah. Just all on top. Just your initial and date. Today’s date : What is today? : 06/15. : == 06/15/21. 271 WR. QM: «Yeah. No. That's - did Yup. is -- MR. MR. MR. you know anything about that? MR. : But again, that’s an administrative error, as opposed to any kind of suspicion related to his death. Correct? MR. : Right. MR. : And then, just the duty Agent rosters, or the schedules. Thank you, sir. MR. + You're welcome. MR. : All right. Lyeson. MR. : Just a couple of follow up questions. MR. Sure. MR. : Was Epstein given special privileges, anything like that? WR. Pf No. I don’t believe so. No. MR. You mentioned that he was meeting with his Attorneys seven days a week? MR. Mm-hmm MR. And was that allowed for any other the inmates? WR. QM: =I mean, al] the inmates are afforded that because while they're pre-trial RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) ee cow onynn uw Sw Oh. : 06/15/21. 06/15? : Yeah. 06/15/21. 06/15/21. Sorry about that. And just for all the It was the sheet -- So, I got to do it -- No, no. Just -- -- nO, no, no, no -- -- just the top of each, staple. Just on each one that's stapled. MR. :_ All right. 06/15/21? MR. Yeah. This is just the way we keep records of what we actually talked about. WR. QM: I'm sorry. You know, it’s taking all da MR. : No. We really - it’s super helpful. There's a lot of stuff that you told us that we didn't know about, so. MR. MM: ©=I was surprised you didn't know about him being in the wrong cell. 272 inmates, they have that right, to seek the legal counsel. MR. MR. counsel when they want to go see them. don’t want to go see them every 90 days, that's, you know, but his legal counsel came quite often. MR. QM: Okay. The phone call. The instruction you gave — You told him that had made the phone call, record it. Now, if Epstein mentioned that he wants to make the phone call to a certain person, and if dialed that number, is he supposed to identify that that’s the person who answered the phone? WR. MMMM: Yeah. Like I told you before, that’s part of the process. So, that's, like, if I call you, and you say, well, I'm so and so, and I'm his Attorney. Okay. Fine. Okay. So, it’s up to the legal If they MR. QR: Now, if that person wasn’t the person who answered the phone, what was Supposed to do? MR. : Then he was supposed to not give and allow him to - like, if he was trying EFTA00111897

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RR ROW OHM SWwrNP RPRRR We Wr RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP RPRRPR RRR SOW WNP ee ee ed eS WwrN Pr CO wc nm wm 273 to call a male and a female answered the phone, if that meant, is so and so available? No. Then he wouldn't have gotten - been able to speak to the female person that answered the phone. No. WR. WE: §=According to the records, I think Epstein mentioned he wanted to speak to his mother. MR. Okay. I don't know. MR. Is there, like, a list that they need to go by, or just Epstein would provide the number, and that was it? WR. QR: Basically, inmates are supposed to supply certain people their supposed to call. So, like, on their phone list, there’s certain people that we vet, that the inmates can call. So, normally, it’s, like, over in - a religious person, your immediate family members, a girlfriend, a wife, a spouse, children, stuff like that, past or whatever. But then, legally, if your legal contact or your Attorney, it’s different. You know, you can - that’s a totally different type of call. Qutside of what the inmates get. Like, if they pick up the commissary phone, and that everyone else knew about it, that requirement? No. Well, what do you mean? Let's say, at Psych, that MR. Yeah. MR. -- e-mail came out saying that, Epstein required a cell mate. MR. Okay. So, what would have happened is, if he would have been released - because she would put that out. So, if the inmate was being released from suicide watch, prior for him being released from suicide watch, that would have went to the exec staff, that would have went to the SHU OIC, the Operations Lieutenant, to inform him that he needs - before place him in SHU - he needs to have an appropriate cell mate. Not a vetted one. Just someone because of what the SHU policy says, that an inmate must have a cell mate. . Okay, but it's on -- MR. But it doesn't say a vetted cell mate. It doesn't say all these protocols. But with her, that’s a general statement that a CWO HUDMS fWwrNP —— COUT fwr re mnmry Le mrer WW = Ww Wey DHfwrP PRR RRP RRP RRR WeonyDwVfwrNro mre reo MmmenNn Ww Wr 274 try to call, it’s only going to allow them to call those numbers off of the phone list. MR. Okay. MR. You know what I'm saying? The proof form is the green form. But over here, they say, well, I need to speak to my Attorney. Okay, I'1] give you the Attorney call. But if that was the case, he could have been afforded or given, if he was calling his mother, if he had time on the books, because he went back to his cell prior to - I think the cell, the SHU, the cell, the phones in SHU cut off at 9:00 p.m. I'm not certain. I can't remember. He could have called his mother at that time. And we wouldn't have had to facilitate the call. He could have called her right from the thing. WR. QR: So, I just want to - should HE have checked that list before he made that phone call? MR. Yeah. MR. Okay. And the last question is, if the order came from Psych, right? - It was just a question - if the order came from Psych, that Epstein needed a cell mate, should they have come down to the Unit and made sure 276 would be made for any suicide watch inmate coming off of suicide watch. MR. Oh so, she sent that e-mail? MR. That's it, if you pull up any other e-mail dealing with an e-mail coming from suicide watch, back to SHU, that would be for any inmate. But however, with him, you couldn’t necessarily do that because he would have to have a vetted cell mate. He would have to have somebody appropriate for him. Not just any cel] that was open. That, you know, if it was a -- | | -- single occupancy, then you MR. MR. could put him in there. But no, he had to be vetted before he could go in with anybody. MR. : That’s all I had. MR. Is there anything we're missing? Anything we didn't cover? : That's it. Pt Let me see this form MR. MR. right here. Yeah, we covered that. All right. So, yeah. If there’s nothing else on your end, then just we'll wrap it up. MR. Okay. I see. EFTA00111898

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRPR RRR SD SwWwNPe ee oll ood Wher © Wo 277 WR. QM: | And there’s - again - there's nothing that you discussed with the FBI, or the OIG, previous, that we didn't cover? On this. wR. PE: No. everything. MR. : That's it. Perfect. It sounds like you were with [-M. was there anything else that she didn't do, that she should have? Aside from that_round. wR. QR: =I mean, with I believe that it was the issue with the log. I think it was a log issue that we had talked about, that when I pulled up the initial log, after I got there, when I pulled up the Lieutenant’s log, it appeared that it was two different logs in the system. And then, within 45 minutes, one log had disappeared out of the system, and then, I see her leaving at about 9:15 a.m., out of the building. I don't know where she was in the building, but at 9:15 m., she comes walking out of the building. And I reported that to OIG when I talked to them. I talked to them about that log being -- And what was the log? . :_No. . : -- he took his own life? . : I believe he took his own . = Okay. I don’t believe any of the staff did any harm to him. No, I don't. Okay. Nah. . And then, as far as - going back to MMM and this log book - when you saw that there was two - it looks like - duplicates, did you see what the discrepancies were, when you noticed that there were two of them for that daily log? MR. MBM: Right. Because I'm going to tell you how I found out. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, when I went in TRUSCOPE, I told you I was looking for the rounds. MR. > Mm-hmm. MR. : Because I'm bouncing the log off of what the rounds was. R. : n-hem. That’s pretty much RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr -- the daily log. The daily log. The Lieutenant's log. So, there” -” two different logs, and then, one of the logs wasn’t right. And then, when I went back, it had been deleted. And then, I see her Teaving out the building at 9:15 a.m. Okay. On that Saturday morning. And when should have she She should have left at 6:00. Why was = in the building for another three plus hours? And I brought that up to the investigators, to the OIC. MR. : Can I see that timeline? MR. : Do you have any reason to believe - obviously, there looks like there was some people that dropped the ball here, there's some, like we talked about, job performance failure, security failure - do you have any reason to believe that there’s anybody that harmed Epstein? :_ No. So, do you believe that - 280 MR. QM: Because all this stuff is going into evidence. So, I'm hurrying, I'm trying to gather this stuff. So, the log, I'm trying to compare it to the rounds, it’s not jiving. So, I'm reading the log, and the log is totally - it’s not jiving. The whole thing is - the times, the frames - it’s not jiving. So then, all of the sudden, when I'm printing out the paperwork from TRUSCOPE, I go back and I look at the log, boom, another log pops up. So, I'm reading this one, and then, the other log that was there before is deleted. MR. QM: «And she has the ability to do that? MR. : Yeah. MR. : Would the system reflect that she made changes? MR. : No. It’s not like -- MR. : Or made changes. MR. : -- it's not like the roster. The roster is not going to tell you. You know, the roster will tell you who goes in there and manipulates the roster. But not that. MR. GM: 9 (indiscernible *01:58:10). EFTA00111899

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 281 WR. MM: But like I said, then, when I'm in passing, because I'm in the Lieutenant’s Office, and I see across, I look out, because, you know, the Alpha door, that door that leads out, she’s walking, they let her out through Control Center, at 9:15. I'm, like, where she been all this time? WR. QM: | And did you ever talk to her? . a, ™ needed to talk to her. : Did you ever question her about that? MR. : No. MR. : No? MR. : I let OIG deal with it. Because once the file came up missing, she didn't report doing rounds. The log was duplicated. I said, something is going on here. I let Mr. know that. I told the Warden. I told OIG. That was part of my - I don't know why it’s not in there - I talked about that_log. mR. aml And was that - MR. : I talked about her leaving the institution at 9:15. 283 WR. MM: Do you understand what I’m saying? WR. WM: | Like, what he's talking about is, after these, and I actually cut that out. So, they're there. MR. : So, no, but - he’s mentioning - from my understanding is - you're saying that the log afterwards, or throughout the night? That al] you got -- night, . = When I got -- 7 -- when I was reviewing the -- you were (Indiscernible log fron the night, from 08/09 into 08/10. MR. : Okay. MR. : That morning watch log for 08/10? Because it starts off with this one, and then it follows, like this. It was totally bad. It was messed up. It showed - it was a bad log. And then, by the time I was being able to print that log, that log had changed. MR. : All right. MR. : And then, another one was there. That’s why I reported it. I don't know why it’s not - I reported that to OIG. won nuwTfwrP 282 WR. MM: | -- and is that with the FBI present? MR. : Yeah. MR. : Okay. Yeah. MR. : And at 9:15, she left between the hours - approximately - 9:10 and 9:15 a.m., on 08/10. MR. : Okay. MR. : Just, we have a note in here that the SHU count was corrected by the Lieutenant log, completed by Lieutenant At the midnight time, the midnight count, where she corrected it from 73 to 72. Do you recall_reading that? WR. WB: Like I said, it was all kind of discrepancies, all kinds of discrepancies on that log. So, I'm just trying to gather everything, so I could bring it before the Warden, to let him know what’s going on. Before we put it in the 583. MR. a. That’s what we talked about. . : Yeah. : We already talked about that, though. WR. QM: Okay. So, it was a log - overnight_log - that got changed? Yes. All right. All right. We'll have to But all right. Anything 284 follow up with that. . oh. That’s it, man. : Thank you. That was very, very helpful. Thank you so much for your time. It is currently 2:07 p.m., on Tuesday, June 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent MR ith the 00) OIG, and I an turning off the recorder. EFTA00111900

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285 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of ay Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00111901