wo oO co ho No uw DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE IN CTOR GENERAL JULY 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00111539

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 8 WITNESS: wo i=) 2 OTHER APPEARANCES: 3 STACEY RICHMAN 4 MATTHEW FOO oO co wo EFTA00111540

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. QERMJ: his is Special Agent J 2 a. The time is 11:15, I’m turning on the ios) ies) recorder. Today is July 15, 2021. My name is 5 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Inspector 6 General, New York Field Office and these are my credentials. The interview is with the Federal 8 Bureau of Prisons employee, | a. It 9 is being conducted as part of an official U.S. 10 Department of Justice, Office of Inspector 11 General investigation. Today is July 15th. 2 The time is 11:16 a.m. The interview is being 3 conducted at Department of Justice Office of 4 Inspector General New York Field Office. Also 5 16 - 8 MR. a : Spell your last name for 9 the record. || 9, Federal Correctional Officer, MCC New York. 23 MS. RICHMAN: Stacey Richman, Richman Hill 24 and Associates, here to represent Mr. | 25 and joining me is my Legal Intern for the EFTA00111541

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 4 fu 7] ct MR. a: Can you spell your la ° too please? name MS. RICHMAN: R-I-C-H-M-A-N. MR. FOOKSM. My name is Matthew O-K-S-M-A-N, Legal Intern for Stacey Richman. MR. a: Again, I’m Special Agent MR. a : I’m Senior Special Agent PC CC SCSsSCSC‘iéS these are my credentials. MR. a: This interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent | a. This is an official DOJ into the hh hh death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding circumstances. You are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? I’m going to review DOJ OIG form II1I-226-2, that’s a Warnings and Ae] nH wn oc K i] 5 Q i) ifs) Hh 2) 5 3 Ae] a 3] Cc R wu o Q i) fs] rt i2)] 1] 3 ie] fH oO fe o oO EFTA00111542

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Basis. The form states, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. The investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings or both.” The waiver states, “I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me or no pressure or coercion of a“ any kind has been used against me. Do you understand that? You can read it if you have to and if you understand, please sign under where it says, “Employee signature.” MR. a : And if you wanted to ask any questions about it, this would be the time EFTA00111543

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to do that. MS. RICHMAN: Again, there is no concept here that Mr. | is a target or subject of the investigation, this is simply into the investigation of Mr. Epstein’s demise. MR. a: As of right now, he’s just a witness. MS. RICHMAN: Yes. MR. a: For the - he’s not a subject for the investigation. MS. RICHMAN: I’m like -. MR. a : So everyone that we interview get this. This is just to be able to tell them what the investigation is focusing on. We don’t have any reason to believe, although, we don’t know how he’s going to answer our questions. Going into this, you are absolutely correct. We don’t have any reason to suspect that your client did anything wrong. MS. RICHMAN: Thank you. MR. a: This is Special Agent a. I’m going to sign this under the signature of the Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. MR. a: And as mentioned, prior EFTA00111544

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE to, we just want to make sure that we sta A sue that we’re discuss we do not deviate from the subject matter. Al Agent | the witness. MR. ae: Before starting the interview, I would like to place you under oath. Mr. a. can you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MR. a : Yes, I do. MR. ae: Please let me know if you don’t understand any questions I ask. I will Okay. I want to clarify, again, that this interview is specifically regarding inmate Jeffrey Epstein. What is your current home address? Bronx, New York, 10469. What is your date of birth? What’s your social security I will kindly rephrase it for EFTA00111545

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 numbe a: : What is your current cell oO io 12 14 MR. ae : And what f o rs) Oo nN Oo H wu at + O oo EFTA00111546

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LIMITED ies) co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE fe) MR. Is this for New York Ci MR. Y oO MR. And during what time? What 2004-ish to 2011-ish. Do you have any military J11, did you join the BOP? MR. Yes. From 2011 until now. Bs MR. What was the entry on duty date for BOP? MR. q r=} a b BOP training? MR. September, I believe. MR. Of 2011? MR. and where was K @ 07) New York. you been with the MCC the whole time? EFTA00111547

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. a: And prior to that, you were 2 with the Homeless Se K vice you mentioned, right? Ww es) Ke oO w 4 MR. ae: Okay. You were a police w ion at the 9th and 10th of 2019? Les] Q Q 2) i] a] oc Q c ifs] ct oO a rior Officer Specialist. 10 MR. a: And what shift did you work th? 2 MR. a : Evening watch, 3 midnight. 4 MR 5 MR when f Co 5 het oO c worked at the MCC on August 9th and 10th? Lee) 5 Wow. This was long ago. 9 MR. a : So I have a daily assignment 9th and 10th -- 22 MR. QJ: 9 -- for the MCC New York. You 23 can take a look at it and let me know -- 24 MR. a : Okay. 25 MR. a: = -- who that is, EFTA00111548

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 supervisor. 2 MR. a : So he means your supervisor on duty at the time. Okay? 4 MR. a : Yes. So this is the 10th, ies) 5 it says P| and the 9th says FT Yeah 6 They’ re both Lieutenants 7 MR. a : Would anyone else have 8 been your - would you also have reported to the 9 Activities Lieutenant or just -. 10 MR. a : Yes. Activities on the 10th 11 was || and on the 9th was a. 2 MS. RICHMAN: That’s in reference to the 3 list that they just showed you. 4 MR. BJ: SsYes. 15 MS. RICHMAN: You didn’t remember on your 16 own. 7 MR. a : No, I can’t - I mean, 8 they’ re obviously supervisors, but I didn’t - I 9 don’t remember who exactly worked for me that 20 day 21 MR. ae: Okay. I’m just going to 22 leave this in front of you if you need to -. 23 MR. a : Sure. 24 ve. QJ: a 25 the documents, it’s not that you’re attesting A 3 part of - when we show you t EFTA00111549

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) to the documents, we just need you to initial it, date it, just to show - say that that is a document we showed you. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a: So, just top right of the document. MR. a : If you don’t mind just writing the -- MS. RICHMAN: The date. MS. RICHMAN: So 7/15. MR. a: So on the 9th, what unit were you working on, do you recall? MR. a : I believe I was Internal. Let’s double check that. Yes. MR. QJ: 9 what about for the 10th? MR. a : Internal. MR. a : Internal. And a Internal Officer, what were your the ifs) responsibilities? MR. a : All movement in the building. You control the elevators, so, you know, any attorney that comes in, any inmate that has to go to Medical, inmate that has to EFTA00111550

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 w ~] wo 10 11 go to R&D or attorney conference, you’re moving them in the elevator, possibly staff and if they need movement and you’re first responder in the building, so. MR. a: Do you recall what time you started your shift on August 9th? MR. QJ: 9 1f 1 worked 4:00 to 12:00, I should be, you know, there obviously a little before 4 o’clock. MR. a : That’s 4:00 p.m., correct? MR. a: Are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? Inmate Jeffrey Epstein? MR. J: 9 syves. MR. a: How do you know him? MR. a : Just from, you know, bringing him to attorney conference and obviously seeing him in the building, you know, through movement and all that. MR. a: Do you know if Inmate Jeffrey Epstein had a cell mate? MR. a : Yes, at one point he did have a cell mate. MR. a: Do you know who that was? EFTA00111551

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : His first cell mate was inmate Tartaglione and -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a : -- yeah, that was his first cell mate. MR. a: Do you recall why Epstein was assigned a cell mate? MR. a : He was in Special Housing, you just have a cell mate. That’s, you know, unless you’re in protective custody, but he wasn’t under protective custody, he was just in Special Housing, so. MR. a : So if you’re in Special Housing, you have to have a cell mate? MR. a : Yes. It’s limited space so, you know, unless you’re there, like I said, in protective custody where you can’t have a cell mate, that’s different. But if there’s room to put - there’s only a certain amount of room, so you’ve got to bunkie up, you know, to accommodate. MR. a : Was there any other reason that Epstein was assigned a cell mate that you were aware of? MR. a : No, not that I’m aware of. EFTA00111552

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Were you aware that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on July 23rd? MR. QJ: 9 sves. MR. a : Were you one of the responding officers? MR. a: Yes, I was. MR. a : Can you explain what transpired? MR. a : So, I was working Special Housing Unit on overtime and me and the officer had heard some sort of commotion and we were about to do our round down that tier, I believe it was M tier and inmate Tartaglione was his bunkie and he was at the door asking for help. We got there. When I looked, because Tartaglione is a little bit big and the window is small, I asked him to move to the side. I saw Epstein with something tied around his neck, but he was sitting on the floor. I told him, you know, “Call for medical assistance,” I told my partner. We cuffed up Tartaglione, took him out. I took it off from Epstein’s neck and we started doing CPR, but he was breathing. You know, he was already breathing and everything. EFTA00111553

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Did Epstein make any statements to you -- MR. a : Nothing. MR. a : -- and state what happened? MR. a : No, he was still not talking when we got him out of the cell and put him on the stretcher and when we took him out, he spoke with Operations Lieutenant and someone because I couldn’t leave Special Housing, I had to stay there so I don’t know what he said. He didn’t say nothing to me personally. MR. a: Did Tartaglione make any statements of what transpired? MR. QM: | ke was just shooken up. He was like, you know, that he was sleeping, because Tartaglione slept on the floor, something with his back he said. So he was sleeping on the floor and he said he just felt someone dump on him and he woke up, you know, frightened and then, you know, that’s it, so he was shooken up, like he was still half asleep, you know. MR. a: And when you walked in the cell, just to clarify, when you walked in the cell, you saw Epstein hanging? EFTA00111554

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. a : So, he had a sheet around 2 his neck, but he was on the floor on his butt. 3 MR a: Okay 4 MR. GJ: 3 so. 5 MR. a: And where was - when you 6 walked - what part of the cell was he in? 7 MR. a : Well, pretty much dead 8 center. The way the beds are set up, which I’m 9 sure you’ve seen the beds, there’s nothing to 10 tie from the ceiling. So he had tied it from 11 the ladder and I guess he tried to cannonball, 12 that’s what a lot of inmates try to do, like 3 grab their legs and go down. But it wasn’t 4 tied hard enough so I guess he landed on his 15 butt. 16 MR. a: So it wasn’t hooked onto the L7 ladder? 8 MR. a : Yeah, it was hook-. 9 MR. a: It was hooked up. 20 MR. QJ: 9 Yeah, yeah. 21 MR. QJ: 9 okay. 22 MR. MJ: 9 So, I took it off of his 23 neck, but, yeah, it was hooked on the bed. 24 MR. a: Do you have anything else on 25 that? EFTA00111555

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE li 1 MR. Ee : Yes. So if it was hooked co 2 on the ladder, did any part of it remain on the 3 ladder? 4 MR. a : I don’t remember, to be honest. 7 MR. a : Truthfully. 8 MR. a : And when you said, when w 9 he jumped off and potentially like a cannonball 10 style, did he reach -. 11 MR. a : Well, I’m assuming how he jumped off. I didn’t see him. nN ive) Fs) Sure. landed c oO is) 3 4 w tal ct mw = b t is) =] oO 7 MR. a : Well, that’s what 8 Tartaglione is saying, that that’s how he woke 9 up because he felt him land on him. 20 MR when I got there, 22 yes, he was on the floor near the ladder ina 23 sitting position and it was around his neck. 24 MS. RICHMAN: Can you describe the sitting 25 position? EFTA00111556

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : His back was against the ladder, so, you know, he wasn’t laying flat. But his legs were - one of his legs was definitely straight out. I can’t remember how the - I think the other leg might have been curved a little bit. But that’s about it. He was on his butt though and his back against the ladder with, you know. MR. a : Did you hear anything with regard to Tartaglione potentially attempting to harm Epstein? MR. a: In the days prior, that was the rumor that was circulating that allegedly Epstein must have told someone, Operations or whatnot, but no one has directly told me. I just remember hearing it in the building. But what I do know is when he came off suicide watch, Epstein, he did ask to go back with Tartaglione. MR. a : So when you say, “The days prior,” do you mean the days after? MR. a : I mean the days after, you know, the days after he attempted suicide. He went on suicide watch then his lawyers reached out and said, you know, it was an attempted 19 EFTA00111557

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 assault. I don’t know what they said, but I was there when they took him off suicide watch and they said, you know, “It wasn’t a suicide, so take him off,” but, you know, “Put him back in Special Housing,” whatever the case may be and he asked to go back with Tartaglione and the Lieutenant was like, “No, he can’t do that.” So I’m assuming he told the Lieutenant that it was an assault. MR. a : And do you - is the assumption that he wasn’t allowed because Epstein -. MR. a : That’s what I’m assuming, yeah. MR. a : Because Eps-. MR. a : That’s why they -. MR. ae : So if - so Epstein - you believe that Epstein did make a claim that Tartaglione attempted to harm him and that’s why he wasn’t allowed to be placed with him? MR. a : Yeah, I would have to assume that because there would be no other reason why not to put them back together. MR. RM: okay. MR. a : Yeah. EFTA00111558

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. Ee : But Epstein specifically did ask to be put back -- mR. QJ: ves. MS. RICHMAN: How do you know that? MR. a : Because I don’t remember exactly where I was bringing him but he was in the elevator with me and he asked me why he couldn’t be paired up with him again and I said, “I don’t know. That’s something you have to ask the Operations Lieutenant.” And he was like, “Yeah, but I don’t understand, you know, we were bunkies, everything was cool.” I said, 17) “Listen, I have nothing to do with that. That’s above my pay grade, you must have said something though. They’re not going to just separate you guys for no reason. MR. Ee : And this was directly from Epstein himself? MR. a : Yes, ye MR. QJ: okay. MR. a : He told me that in the elevator. MR. a : Is there any reason for if) EFTA00111559

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 you to believe that Tartaglione in fact tried to harm Epstein? MR. a : I don’t think so. Reason why I say I don’t think so, I mean, I don’t put nothing past nobody because, you know, I don’t know them like that, but he was trying to stay out of a lot of trouble because of what he was facing with his own case. I don’t know if you’re familiar with his case or whatnot and I’m not -. MR. a : Please feel free to tell us. MR. a : I mean, I just know he was facing murder charges, that’s all I know. MR. a : Tartaglione. MR. a : Yes. And he was real concentrated on beating that case. And my personal experience, someone trying to beat a case is not going to try to kill someone else while you’re trying to beat a murder charge. It just doesn’t add up to me. MR. ae : And do you know what resulted in Tartaglione’s case? EFTA00111560

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 w ~] MR. a : No, I don’t. MR. a : But he was at least - he allegedly murdered someone, that’s was what he was in - do you feel like he was the right person to be assigned to Epstein? MR. a : I mean, truthfully, he’ other bunkies and there’s never been an issue, had +f) so I don’t think it was like a bad choice, you know. MR. a : Do you know how Tartaglione was selected to be Epstein’s bunkie? MR. a : No, that I don’t know. MR. ae : No? Do you know if it went above the heads of the staff in the SHU? MR. a : I wouldn’t doubt it. Because a lot of things that transpired with Epstein was above our heads. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. QJ: | You know, the judge would call or whoever would call and then it would come from the Captain who told the Lieutenant, the Lieutenant would give the order. Soa lot of stuff was not the officers. Usually it’s up the officers in SHU. You, you know, “You do EFTA00111561

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this, you do that.” A lot of stuff that happened with him came from outside orders. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : Yeah. MR. a : And you mentioned something about how Epstein was no longer suicidal and that’s why they placed him back in the housing unit. Do you know why they made that determination that he was no longer suicidal? MR. a : From what I heard, because obviously medical staff clears them, so I don’t, you know, I have no part in clearing anybody. But from what I heard, the reason why he came off is his lawyers told something to the judge and the judge called the building saying, “He shouldn’t be on suicide watch, get him off.” Because when you’re on suicide watch you don’t get attorney visits. So, and he used to get attorney visits every day, like she said and he would have that room like from when attorney opens until when attorney conference closes. So when he went on suicide watch you don’t get it no more. So I don’t know what transpired, but the lawyers spoke to the judge EFTA00111562

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 and the judge called MCC and said, “Take him off,” you know, “He’s watch.” information from? vR. a: MR. J: «at many hours and worked was doing close to 72 you know, so -- ve. MR. a: = -- I don’t remember exact to come off suicide Where did you hear that From the Ops Lieutenant. Which Ops Lieutenant? that time, we’d done so with so many people. I hours a week some weeks, Okay. it could have been any - ly what Lieutenant said it, but I remember them saying he came off suicide watch because of, you know, we got a , Jz ‘ 3 phone call saying he had to come off suicide watch. Who would have the judge contacted to tell someone at the MCC that was MR. a : That would come from his W, the hel contacted the Would the lawyers have Warden? Who do you EFTA00111563

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 s) Fs) > K K t hh rs} Cc O 0 5 ct fu re] rt ct in 0) 3 judge, the judge is going to contact the Warden the 4 and then it trickles down. w oS fu Ae) = 7 fe] = wu tH co wo ioe) 17 then the other thing that I want to follow up 18 is (Indiscernible *00:18:39). ‘ - at that time 20 aU my fault. know when, prior 22 to Epstein going on suicide watch, do you 23 remember what cell he was assigned to? 24 MR. a : The exact cell number? 25 MR. a : Even the tier would be EFTA00111564

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 fine. 2 MR. a : Before he went on suicide 3 watch? I believe it was M tier, first cell on 4 the right. first cell on the uw a t } D iat oO a If I’m not mistaken, before i=) he went on suicide watch you said. nN Fs) K he oO Ps wQ 3) It was becau ive) down, it was to the (Indiscernible 4 Yeah, it would be M tier, first cell on the t oO a MR. Ee : On that note, after he 7 came back from suicide watch, do you know where 8 he was assigned? 9 MR. a : Yes. It was L tier, the 20 tier above it, first cell on the right. 21 MR. ae : L tier, first cell - 22 both times, first cells on the right? 23 MR. a : Yes. 24 MR. a : All right. And how do 25 you know that information? is) or) EFTA00111565

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Well, one, I know because I’ll transport, you know, and I’m on Special Housing quite a bit just bringing inmates back from attorney conference or helping out, whatever the case may be. But I know the first cell because I’m the one that responded when he, you know, tried to attempt suicide the first time, so I remember that. And the second one I know because, you know, I worked that unit on overtime. Not the night he did it, but so I know the cell he was in. MR. a : Okay. And you know the cell because you were working in the unit you said? MR. a : Yes, I had worked in that unit after he was on suicide watch. MR. ee: who actually brings Epstein - who used to bring Epstein from the SHU down to attorney visiting? Would that be Internal or who would do that? MR. a: Well, what would happen is, unless they’re severely busy, but Internal, we just meet them at the door. So whatever officers are there, take him out of the thing, you know, they get a phone call and then they EFTA00111566

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 w ~] ive) call us on the radio, “Internal, we got one ready for attorney conference, you want to come upstairs.” MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a : They’ re at the door, they hand them off or they come with us, whatever they choose, you know, but -. MR. a : Right. So you’re not actually physically getting him from the cell or -- MR. QJ: No. MR. a : -- placing him back in the cell. MR. a : I mean, has it happened? Yes, if they’re busy, severely busy or whatnot or maybe the inmate is acting irate and they just want extra staff, but normally, no. it’s whoever is posted there brings them and brings them back, we’re just the middle man, you know. MR. QJ: Okay. Do you remember ever having to either retrieve Epstein from his cell or place him back in the cell when he was staying in the SHU? MR. a : Truthfully, no. I can’t -. MR. a : Yeah, no, no, that’s EFTA00111567

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] fine. I’m just trying - the only reason for this questioning is to just positively determine that you knew that’s where he was assigned. MR. QJ: 9 yeah. MR. QJ: so, but -- MR. a : I mean, I know -- MR. a : -- just from working -. MR. a : -- that’s where he was assigned, but just, yeah. MR. a : And you know it from working in the unit. 30 MR. a : Yes, because I did a lot of overtime over nights and I would be assigned there and I know exactly from doing counts and doing rounds and feeding or whatnot, so. MR. ae : Okay. Great. And then the other thing that you mentioned, before moving on is, you said that that was not the only inmate who was assigned to Epstein as a cell mate. Who else was assigned to Epstein a cell mate. MR. a : So, I don’t remember his name and he wasn’t there long. So I don’t - truthfully don’t even remember his face, but EFTA00111568

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 remember he had another bunkie when 2 back and that guy, if I’m not mistaken, 3 be wrong, was shipped out either the day before 4 or the morning of when Epstein, you know, 5 killed himself. Ww could 6 MR. a : Okay. So was there only 7 two cell mates that were assigned to 8 MR. a : That I know of, 9 MR. a : Okay, so one prior 10 suicide attempt and one after the -- 11 MR. BMJ: ves. WwW Fs) K 0) w a w you. inmate Efrain Reyes? 8 MR. a : No. Sorry. 16 MR. ae: Do you recognize the name the 9 MR. a : So when he came back from 20 suicide watch, right, was he placed by himself 21 or was he placed with another inmate? 22 MR. a : No, he was placed with the 23 other inmate that I can’t remember exactly who 24 he was, but he had a bunkie when he first came 25 back. EFTA00111569

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Now, was there a different reason why he was placed with the inmate other than the fact that there was less space? Was there a specific reason? MR. a : I mean, truthfully, I don’t know. But it could be either or. That space or because he was on suicide watch, you have to have a bunkie, you know, but that’s - I don’t know what the reason was, I just know he had a bunkie. MR. a: Do you recall after he came back from suicide watch, was there any specific instructions that came down from the Captain or the Lieutenants regarding Epstein? MR. : No, not that I know of. MR. Are you familiar with the court list? MR. a : Yes. MR. QJ: «what is it? MR. a : So, in the morning or sometimes the night before, it depends on when they get it from the Marshals. The Marshals send us a court list, it’s printed out in R&D and we hand it out to each unit and that’s how they know who got court in the morning or who EFTA00111570

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 got court in the afternoon. Sometimes, like I said, they get it the night before, but that’s rarely. They most of the time get it like in the morning sometime, you know, like overnight maybe 4:00 in the morning you get it or 5:00 in the morning or whatever. MR. a : So it rarely comes in the night before? MR. a : Rarely. It has happened, but rarely because there’s so many changes. You know how the courts are and everything so the Marshals would rarely give us - but if it’s a slow day and maybe it’s only a few inmates, they get a list the night before, you know. MR. a: And what’s exactly listed on that list? MR. a : It says, whoever is getting packed out like going to another institution or air lift or whatever the case may be. Whoever is going to court period. Basically just that type of stuff, there’s nothing else on there, no. MR. a: So you mentioned, “Packed out,” what’s packed out? MR. a : Packed out is if they’re - EFTA00111571

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 it may be you’re leaving in the next week to another jail, so they’re put on the list to send him down with all his property so that it can be inventoried and whatever he wants shipped or whatever he’s going to donate or whatever the case may be and then he comes back to the unit. So we call it packed out because we’ll tell the inmate, “You’re being packed out,” so that’s how he knows he’s leaving soon to pack his stuff and go to R&D. MR. a: Have you ever heard the term WAB? MR. QJ: Ss Yes. MR. QJ: 9 what’s that mean? MR. a : With all belongings. MR. | Is that the same thing as packed out? MR. : Same, yeah, same thing. So, when I say WAB, we say pack out, you know. MR. BJ: 9 Okay. MR. : But WAB, with all belongings, yeah. MR. QJ: 9 what’s air lift? MR. : Air lift, I’m not totally sure on, but it’s basically when the Marshals EFTA00111572

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 will come and pick someone up, and I’m assume - £ and I don’t know if it’s - where they’re going but they’re coming - they’re going somewhere, so. MR. a: Okay. So the Marshals are coming to pick them up. MR. QJ: 9 yeah. MR. QJ: «Ana -. MR. a : And maybe an Agent, you know, depending on where they’re going. But -. MR. a: Who creates this court list? Did you say? MR. a : From my understanding, it comes from the Marshals. MR. a: From Marshals to R&D? MR. QJ: ves. MR. a: And what does R&D do? They just pass on the list or they create a document of their own? MR. QJ: = t’m not sure, to be honest, because I don’t work in R&D like that. I mean, I’m in and out of it, but as far as I know, whenever we go to pick it up, it’s just in R&D ready already. So, I don’t know, you know. I know it comes from the Marshals because I’ve EFTA00111573

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 heard them say several times, like, “We’re waiting on the Marshals to send the court list so we know who is going tomorrow.” But as far as if they alter it or do their own thing, that I don’t know. MR. a: And as Internal, does R&D provide a copy to you? MR. a : Yeah. MR. a: And what do you do with the - MR. a : On the elevator, we have like a little box where our own paperwork or, you know, we have a metal wand to wand people down or whatnot. It’s not big. So it would be put there in our folder and when the next shift comes on, they check the folder and they got the court list also, you know, to -. MR. a: How many copies of that court list do you think is made? MR. a : I mean, off the top of my head, you figure each unit gets one, the Lieutenant’s office gets one, attorney conference gets one. I don’t -. MR. a: Just pretty much passed out to all -. EFTA00111574

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Yeah, yeah. Every area of the building gets that and the call out list and the SEP (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:59) roster and all that. MR. a: You said normally - normally, it should come the night before but sometimes it comes 4:00 in the morning. MR. a : No, no, no. Once in a blue it comes the night before, but normally it comes like 3:00, between 3:00 and 5:00 in the morning, you know, it will come. MR. a: And a copy is given to every unit. MR. BMJ: ves. MR. a: And is the list maintained in a folder or computer somewhere? MR. a : I know R&D has it in the computer. But -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a : -- what happens is, once they leave and they’re keyed in, then obviously it’s in the computer, but you don’t key it in until they leave the building otherwise it causes confusion. If I just look at the list and key these people out, but then one don’t go EFTA00111575

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 wo oo to court or one gets canceled, now our count is off because I put four inmates out of the building and four didn’t go to court. You know what I’m saying? So, the minute they leave, yes, they’re keyed out and it’s all on the computer. MR. a: Do you know if that document is saved anywhere? MR. QJ: «9 (indiscernible *00:26:50). MR. a: That court list? Like, that - you know, that court list that get ed i] i] pas out, do you think that -. MR. a : The hard copy or the -- MR. a: Hard copy, yeah. MR. a : -- one on the computer? Truthfully, I don’t know. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : I would assume, you know, the computer-wise, you could back track and find it, but the hard copy, no, I don’t, you know. MR. QJ: «and -. MR. a : Do you know how the Marshals send it to R&D? Is it by email? MR. a : No idea, to be honest. EFTA00111576

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) lo \o MR. QJ: 9 No idea? MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. a : And when he asks about the court list being in the computer, do you know if the actual court list is in the computer or they key the information off of the court list into the computer? MR. a : So, I know if we go to the control center where we do all count and ua assignments, that’s called C&A, that’s all U keyed in. But R&D, I believe they have it in the computer. MR. a : They have the actual } b m rt MR. a : Yeah, I’m assuming -- MR. QM: okay. MR. a : -- because they have more info on that than we do. So I would assume they have something more than us, whether it’s the exact list in the computer or just something close to it, but I don’t know, you know, I couldn’t answer that exactly because, like I said, I don’t work there and -- MR. a : Yeah. Absolutely. MR. a : -- my post, although it’s EFTA00111577

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 mobile, I’m not, you know. 2 MR. a : Who would be a person to ies) w someone that 6 Counts and Assignments. 7 MR. a : Okay. And is Counts and 8 Assignments in R&D? 9 MR. a : No, it’s in the Control 10 C 1 MR. Ee : Oh, Control Center. So someone in the Control ive) Fs) 4 Center is actually as 1) signed Counts and 5 Acs Assignments? MR. QJ: ves. 7 MR. ae : Okay. Good to know. Are you able to by looking at tha oO co document, 9 determine who that person was on August 9th? 20 MR. a : August 93th, so it would be shift was 21 Control #2 is 22 | (Phonetic Sp. *{ 23 shift was J. usually C&A. So day and night 25 MR. a : That’s - yeah. No, that’s EFTA00111578

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) the 10th. You said the 9th, right? MR. a : Correct. MR. a : The 9th, day shift was MMMM (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:45) and night shift was fo (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:48). MR. a : Okay. When you said that the Marshals don’t send it usually until like 3:00 to potentially 5:00 a.m. Are you sure they don’t send it or is that when it’s passed out? MR. a : Truthfully, there’s no - I don’t know. You know what I’m saying? MR. a : So what makes you believe that the Marshals don’t actually send it until that time? MR. a : I mean, because so much changes, you know, you’re, you know, a lawyer - MR. QJ: Okay. MR. QJ: -- and so much changes with the courts, you know, first thing in the morning, what judge called out, what - so I’m assuming they would wait as close as possible 7) rt to the time, you know, to get it out, I would m ume. as EFTA00111579

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE Okay. MR. a : You know, I could be -. MR. QJ: 1 could be wrong. It’s an MR. QJ: | Right. MR. a : I could - no way for me to know for sure, but you could there’ be right. Maybe it’s coming in at 10:00 at n know because -- night and I don’t e 238). MR. a : -- they don’t put it o until 3:00 in the morning. You know, there’s cernible wo ime no way for me to answer that. I don’t know. MR. a : I can used to getting it and putting it out. Ss y tell you when I’m MR. ae: I know you didn’t work - you worked the evening watch on the 9th, right? MR. a : Yes. MR. a : Would you happen to know wh was working R&D during morning watch or day EFTA00111580

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 watch? 2 MR. a : So, there’s no R&D morning Ww wu ct a x 4 MR. ae: What about day watch? Day watch, no, I wouldn’t be wi aw 6 able to tell you. co a oO a What about night watch? Well, there’s no overnight 10 R&D, but 1 MR They’ re not morning 2 watch, evening watch is what I’m saying. 3 like the - you got yur day watch and you got 4 watch. 5 It might not be listed on 16 there 7 I was to say -- 8 Do you 9 -- it’s not on here because 20 - 21 It’s not. That’s what he 22 was Oh, yeah, 24 definitely don’t remember, to be honest, you 25 know. EFTA00111581

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LIMITED w ~] OFFICIAL USE 44 MR. Ee : Okay, yeah. MR. a: When you worked on August 9th as Internal, I know you came in the afternoon. MR. QJ: Ss Yes. MR. a: Do you recall seeing the court list for that day? MR. GJ: «No. MR. a: Okay. What do they normally do after all the inmates are gone, what do they do with that court list. MR. a : It’s still held because when I come in at 4 o’clock, we do the 4 o’clock count and we refer back to it sometimes. MR. a: To see who was there, who’s - MR. a : Yeah, you know, if the count is off, we’ll look to see who they sent out and we’ll use the court list sometimes before we go into the computer, so, usually it’s saved on the unit on a clipboard or something or a folder. You know, something along those lines. MR. a: Are they supposed to retain it or do they just dispose of it? MR. a : I mean, from just working units years ago, usually once all the inmates EFTA00111582

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 are accounted for back in the building, it’s useless, it’s gone because it’s already in the computer, you can backtrack and look that he left for court or he left for whatever, so there’s no need for the paper, you know, after they’re back. Once the building is fully stocked again, we really - it’s irrelevant to have that paper because in the computer, we know where they went when they came back. MR. a: All right. Are you familiar with something called the daily log? MR. BJ: 9 sves. MR. a : Do you know if that court list is used to update the daily log? MR. a: How about the Lieutenant log? Is it used to update the Lieutenant logs? mR. QJ: 9 sves. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. QJ: But that also goes back to when it’s keyed in the computer. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : You know. And once it’s keyed into SENTRY, it’s a ton of different paperwork we get from SENTRY. EFTA00111583

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: What kind of paperwork? MR. a : The SEP rosters like I said or the movement in the building. Like, literally everything is in SENTRY, so what ends up happening is the Lieutenant’s log, the officer’s log, everything is - you could go back in SENTRY and look and be like, “Oh, well, inmate Daniels, the court list said he had court but he never went to court because he got injured playing basketball and they took him out on a medical trip.” So now, I go to SENTRY and it will say that you weren’t in court, but you were out on a, you know, hospital, you were out at a hospital that’s why you’re off the count. So it’s not that you never came back from court, the court list said that you had court so that’s why the computer and the log is necessary because now I look at the log and I’m like, it’s 2:00 in the morning, Daniels isn’t back from court, that makes no sense. No, you never went to court, you’re in the hospital because you broke your finger playing basketball. You know what I’m saying? MR. a: Okay. MR. QJ: the ppps-38 you're EFTA00111584

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 talking about? MR. a : Yeah, basically. MS. RICHMAN: So SENTRY is the central computer -- MR. a : Yes. MS. RICHMAN: -- that MCC uses? MR. a : SENTRY is the main, yeah, access to -. MR. a: So we know there’s a Lieutenant’s log and is there a separate you said for the officers also? MR. a : What do you mean? Like TRUACCESS? MR. QJ: 9 You said, “Officer’s log.” MR. a : Yeah, well, each unit, you have TRUACCESS, it’s, again, when I first started, it was a big book, so that’s why, you know, but that was a long time ago and you would write everything in the book. Now they have TRUACCESS, you log in with your PIV card, you log in and it’s a whole layout of, you know, you could do an inmate off the unit, you can move an inmate off the unit, move him on, you can move the cells, everything. So, if you log into TRUACCESS, you could see everything EFTA00111585

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 that happened the shift before you on that unit. 3 MR ae : And that would be the BP-38? 4 MR. GJ: No. 5 MR a: This is something separate? 6 MR a : That’s for the building. 7 He’s - SENTRY is more broad, the whole jail. 8 But TRUACCESS is more directed straight for the wo post you just took. 10 MR. a: Do you recall during August 11 9th, what was being utilized, the book or the ive) Fs) 4 MR Okay. If the daily log and 15 Lieutenant log shows pre-removal, what does 16 that mean? 7 MS. RICHMAN: Shows what? Lee) 5 Pre-removal. oO a3 rr o Why don’t you show it 20 them. 21 MR. ae: You know, this is the daily 22 log. res. 24 MR. a : Are you familiar with this? EFTA00111586

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 MR. a: If on that sheet - let’ 2 to the last -- 3 MR. QJ: | the third. 4 MR. ae: -- third page. wo 7] .Q oO 5 MR. a : I see, right - okay. 6 MR. QJ: «9 (indiscernible *00:34:21) 7 just (Indiscernible *00:34:23) so as part of 8 the investigation, we know that inmate Efrain 9 Reyes was Epstein’s cell mate. Okay. t i=) a 11 MR. a: And so if you look at inmate 3 MR. a : Yeah. 4 MR. a: -- what doe if) rr > fu rt 3] ct fu rt e next 16 MR. a : Pre-removal. 7 MR. a: What does that mean to you? 8 MR. a : Truthfully, I couldn’t tell 9 you. I mean, I’ve seen it before, but my post 20 doesn’t deal with a lot of the lingo that they 21 use on SENTRY, so pre-removal, I mean, like I 22 said, I know he was shipped out, but - so it 23 has to do something I guess with that, but -. 24 MR. a : Do you believe it would 25 be something to do with WAB or -- EFTA00111587

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Possibly. MR. a : -- being packed out? MR. a : If I had to take a guess, an educated guess, yes. But to tell you exactly what that means, I couldn’t tell you, unfortunately. MR. QJ: 9=aAnd that daily log -- MR. a : Yes. MR. QJ: «9 -- when is that filled out? Do you know? Not in general. Who fills that out and when is that filled out? MR. QJ: «well, this is a little bit - many people have access to this. Not many, but it’s not just one person. But R&D could adjust this log, Counts and Assignments, which is Control #2, they could adjust this log and the Lieutenant’s office could adjust this log. So that’s the main areas that would adjust it. MR. Ee : And when would they adjust those logs? Does that coincide with being keyed in and keyed out or -. MR. a : Yeah. It happens, you know, more times, I guess, during the day when court happens and all that, but this could happen at any time because inmates are constantly moving. EFTA00111588

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Because as you can see, it’s also from cell to cell or unit to unit. So let’s say at night you come in and they’re moving four inmates to a different unit, this log has to get updated even though it’s in-house and they’re only moving unit to unit, you’ve got to know where they are so that’s why some of these are just unit to unit, you could tell. MR. a: Are they supposed to do it immediately or is it something that you can wait until the next day to do it? MR. a: If, I mean, I don’t know if there’s an exact rule, but I would assume it has to happen the same day. I don’t think the next day would be beneficial for the, you know. MR. a: And this is key - is this log correspond directly, like, let’s say an inmate gets keyed in and out. Would this get automatically updated or this is a separate log altogether? MR. a: Well, when you say, “Keyed ” in and out,” what do you mean? MR. a: Let’s just say an inmate is being moved from one cell - from one unit to another, right? Someone has to key the inmate EFTA00111589

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wo S) LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 out from that unit -- : Yes. ies) a wi a K @ if) -- and key them into another Would this get automatically updated or is this manually updated by 8 somebody? 9 MR. a : Well, when you say, “Key,” 10 this is what you’re keying. Okay. N Fs) : You know what I’m saying? ive) w oO b- ct 07) ! 4 MS. RICHMAN: “This,” referring to what’s 5 on this daily log document. MR. a : Exactly, yeah. So this is what’s updating when you’re keying in and out. t oO a Les] j ip is) ct x = a i 107) rt ~ 0) x i) ie MR. 9 document. So when someone is keying it, the daily log is what they’re doing? 21 MS. RICHMAN: That’s the result. tw asically, yeah. Q 23 MR. a : is there another 4 system as well? fe) ho is) wi oO om 5 1 No EFTA00111590

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Or is this what’s in the TRUACCESS or potentially TRUVIEW -. MR. QJ: 9 TRUACCESS is basically just for your unit. So that’s not going to adjust this. MR. a: Okay. MR. QJ: 9 oqThis is SENTRY. TRUACCESS is just - so if I come in and I relieve you and I look and I’m like, “Oh, inmate Biaz (Phonetic Sp. *00:37:29) went to seven north, he’s not on ” five south no more,” and you’re like, “Yes.” Okay, now, that’s not going to mess up my count as I state and adjust this. MR. QJ: | what’s the difference between that and BP-38? MR. QJ: «this is, like I said, the whole jail. So let’s say you tell me he went to seven north, which he really did, but for whatever reason, they messed up on him, they put him on seven south. When we do the count, our count is going to be off. MR. a : Right. MR. a : So when seven north calls in their count, they’re going to be like, “Bad count.” “What do you mean bad count?” “You’re EFTA00111591

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) mis is] sing an inmate.” Because on here, they’ve got him on seven south. MR. a : So that’s Internal’s document they use in order to verify their counts? MR. a : This is the whole building’s, you know. MR. a : Because that’s the -. MR. a : But this doesn’t - MR. Ee : When you say Internal, you mean Controls. Is that what -. MR. a : Yeah, yeah, Control, everybody had - you know, they - this is the main document, yes. MR. a : So this is - when Control does their thing, this is what they use to say, “Where are the inmates at right now?” MR. a : Well, Control just logs in the computer. MR. QJ: Right. MR. a : You know, because you have - I’m Control #1, you’re Control #2, you’re C&NA, you know all the numbers for the building, you’ re supposed to know so I’m not looking at nothing, I’m saying, you know, “So and fo o- EFTA00111592

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo wn Officer, So and so, what’s going on?” And he just has it on the computer already logged in. MR. a : But when they - on this section, I guess what I’m saying is like if Reyes, for instance, is moved from point A to point B, that automatically adjusts the count that they see in Control? MR. GJ: yes. MR. QR: Okay. MR. a: Can you initial and date that, on the top right there? Right there. Do you recall seeing that document on the day you came in, August 9th? MR. GJ: No. MR. a : And just for clarification, we’re just getting educated. The line of our questions is because we don’t work in the BOP, so people tell us different things. We just want to get more educated on that document. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? MR. EJ: No. MR. a : No, I mean. MR. QR: okay. MS. RICHMAN: So they show the times of EFTA00111593

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ow fen) 1 when people are moved as well, correct? 2 MR. a : Yes. Well, that’s the times 3 they’re keyed. 4 MS. RICHMAN: Some keyed. w a a : So if an individual is moved from, for instance, the SHU down to R&D, oO a 8 would it also be reflected on this document? 9 MR. a : I believe to be - I 10 mean, everything is in SENTRY, but the problem 11 is, I don’t want to 2 there’s PP-38s, the ive) forever - 15 MR a : -- you know, not to sound 16 funny, but there’s - so, you could key in - 7 it’s definitely in SENTRY. It’s definitely in 8 SENTRY but I don’t know if it would be on the 9 38 or - A 22 MR. QJ: | Absolutely. 23 MR. ; : You know. 24 MR. a : And we’d be looking for 25 the pen for that. EFTA00111594

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ~J] uw MR. a: Okay. Do you recall - well, you said you’re not familiar - were you familiar with Epstein’s cell mate at all? MR. QJ: 9 Which one? MR. a: Reyes. MR. QJ: Just by sight, like - like I said, I didn’t have much interaction with him. MR. QJ: 9 Okay. MR. a : I’ve seen him, but he wasn’t a known inmate like that, so I don’t know - like Tartaglione had been there for years, so obviously I remember him and he stands out to me. The inmate, Reyes, that was - you said Reyes, right? saw him just in crossing, like it was never - and then he left, so I don’t know, you know. MR. ae : So people have told us that everyone knew who Reyes was because he was Epstein’s cell mate. Do you agree with that or disagree? MR. a : I mean, everybody knew Epstein. MR. QM: Richt. MR. a : So, they’re probably right because had he not been his bunkie, I probably EFTA00111595

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 wouldn’t have noticed him. Quiet guy. I don’t 2 know if he’s ever been in a fight or any of 3 that, you know, so it’s safe to say, had he not 4 been his bunkie, I might have not even 5 remembered what he looked like. 6 MR. a : What about as far as just 7 his name? I know we’re two years later, but at 8 that time two years ago, do you believe most 9 people in this institution, if not everyone, 10 would have known the name Reyes? know him? ive) 4 name, 16 aT Reyes? 1? MS. RICHMAN: A 8 name -- 9 MR. 20 MR. a: 21 MS. RICHMAN: - No, You never believe No, I was just about to I don’t think so. Just by sight is why you you knew that no. a pretty common u wu het ! i} Totally. - to hear, yeah. - that’s why. Like it’s -. But I’m just saying, so, 24 like, you know, 25 out from his as you know, cell mate. Do Reyes was moved you believe EFTA00111596

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 someone, if they saw the name Reyes, would have been like, “That’s Epstein’s bunkie.” MR. a : No, not at all. MS. RICHMAN: Do you know how long Reyes was at MCC? Was it a short -. MR. QJ: 9 That’s the thing. I don’t know for sure but it had to be short. Like, if I had to take an educated guess, I would say short because I really don’t remember anything that stands out to me about him, like -. MR. a : On that note, do you remember when Epstein came back from suicide watch and psychological observation? MR. a : Do I remem- well, I remember him getting off, like, I can’t tell you exactly MR. a : Does around July 29th or 30th sound about right? MR. QJ: Yeah. MR. a : Maybe like almost about 10 days prior to Epstein dying? MR. a : Yeah. Because if I had to take a guess, I’d say one or two weeks maybe or the most, a month, it had to be between that EFTA00111597

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 time period. N Fs WwW a ae H oe =] t i b 5 ct Oo | it wasn’t 4 long. wi ir) 6 MR. a : It wasn’t, you know -. Les] i to 5 Km ct ns B s a 0 MR. QJ: 9was there 1 Reyes leaving the institution that day between w an tan about ny t ive) Fs) When I came into work, he 4 was mention, “Hey, actions to take? oO Lee) 5 Oo Do you know now, post- you know wh 24 MR. a : We just know he went to court EFTA00111598

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. QJ: (indiscernible *00:43:06) MR. a : (Indiscernible *00:43:06) ? MR. a : -- answer this question. MR. a: Yeah, we just - that’s all I’m saying. We just know he went to court. Were you instructed on what action should be taken if Reyes was removed from Epstein’s - as Epstein’s cell mate? MR. a : That would be Special Housing officers to, you know - no one would give me any, you know, actions to take because that’s not my unit. I’m just moving - I’m just bringing them. Like is said, we would help out if they needed, but as far as that, if they don’t need help, I’m just passing them off to them, so them, that’s their post, they know what actions they’ve got to take and all that. MR. a: Do you remember any special instructions that were given to them in regards to it? MR. No. court. a: MR. a: Now let’s say Reyes left for a: MR. Okay. EFTA00111599

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Right? How would the institution know he wasn’t coming back? MR. a : It’s when they reach out and tell us. MR. a: Who reaches out? MR. a: I’m assuming the Marshals. But R&D would know better, but I’m assuming the Marshals. MR. a: What time of day would they notify? MR. a : I guess when courts is closed. Like, not when they’re closed, but when everything is over because what would happen is, the Marshals bring the inmates back, so. MR. a: Around what time? MR. a : Whenever, you know, some people last longer in courts than others, so. But, as you know, some people get bail, some people get released, some people get just removed, period, wherever they go, but when the Marshals come back, that’s when everything gets updated or shortly before it. Whenever they got all the inmates in custody again, that’s when I guess everything gets updated. EFTA00111600

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE is) Ww 1 MR. a: Is there a specific time 2 period in the day where usually the Marshals 3 bring back inmates? 4 MR. a : It ranges, you know? 5 Because I’ve came in at 4:00 and 4 o’clock 6 count and the Marshals were waiting. Then I’ve 7 came in and they’re still bringing inmates at 8 7, 8 o’clock at night, so it -. 9 MR. a : So on that note, they 10 come at different times of day or they always 11 come at one time? A 2 MR. QJ: «No, a s far as from my if 3 experience, they bring people back at different 4 times of da 15 MR. QJ: Right. So the Marshal -- 16 MR. a : Especially that it’s -- 7 MR. QM: 9 -- can be -. 8 MR. a : -- not always the Marshal 17) 9 Sometimes Agents are bringing people back, 20 sometimes - you know. 21 MR. ae : So it’s not like they 22 show up at 4:00 p.m. with everybody that’s 23 coming back. 24 MR. a : Exactly. 25 MR. a : Like they come at EFTA00111601

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 different times. MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. QR: | Right. MR. a : Like you could estimate, like, “They should be here in a little while,” but there’s no exact time where they’re bringing everybody back. It’s not, you know. MR. a: Okay. Now let’s say the court does notify the R&D. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a: “Hey, listen, a certain inmate is not coming back.” What’s the process after that? MR. QJ: truthfully, these are a lot of questions you’ve got to ask people in R&D. I really - that’s not my department, I don’t work in there. MR. QR: 9 okay. MR. a : I just, you know, I go to get the inmate after he’s there and bring him to his unit, but that’s not my - I don’t know how the whole communication happens between them and the outside agencies, I don’t - you know, that’s not my own area. MR. a: And as Internal, would you EFTA00111602

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ever be notified if a certain inmate is not coming back? MR. a: I mean, yeah, they’ve told me, because remember, we’re doing the count. So, they may say, when I come, they may be, “Internal pick up two from R&D going back to the housing unit,” and when I come, they’d be like, “Oh, Reyes ain’t coming back for whatever reason,” but it’s through passing, they don’t have to tell me because what happens is, Control Center should be keying that in so that when I do my count, I don’t need to know that because on SENTRY, it’s already he’s no longer there and - you know what I’m saying? So if it is, it’s through common conversation but it’s not a must for them to tell me because where - we have the faith that everybody else did their jobs and the computer is, you know, everything is logged in and moved and accounted for so I don’t need to worry about that when I do my count. MR. a : What count are you doing? Like as Internal, where do you do the counts? MR. a: We do the 4 o’clock when we come in. EFTA00111603

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a: Of what unit - what -. MR. a : The whole building. MR. a: How does that work? Explain. MR. a : You've got to count each building. Sometimes, you know, maybe they have a partner to count with them already, but we still have to pick up the count slip and everything, but at 4 o’clock, every unit has to be counted. At 10 o'clock every unit has to be counted. At -. MR. a: So you go to each unit and assist with the counts? MR. a : If they need assistance. Sometimes they don’t. They have a partner already or their relief helps them or counselor helps them. Anybody can help them if they’re an employee. So I get there and they have the count slip and they just give it to me, like, ” “It’s done already, here, MR. a: Okay. MS. RICHMAN: The whole building freezes you know. for the count. MR. a : Yes. Well, you know that. MS. RICHMAN: Yeah, well, I’m informing them in case they don’t know. EFTA00111604

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. a : Yeah. There’s no movement, there’s no anything when the count is going on. MR. QR: 9 okay. MS. RICHMAN: And when you said 10 o'clock, you meant 10:00 a.m. MR. a : No, no. Yeah. MS. RICHMAN: 10:00 p.m. MR. QJ: Yeah. MR. a : Only on the weekends is it the 10:00 a.m. count, correct? MR. QJ: 9 Yes. MR. a: When you came in on August wo th, were you involved in any counts? MR. QJ: would - the 4:00 p.m. count I probably was involved in. I don’t know exact units I counted, but like I said, I definitely picked up count slips and, you know. MR. a: You don’t recall if you assisted with the SHU count on August 9th. MR. QJ: si definitely didn’t because SHU has more than one officer so they count their own unit. You know, they normally - 99.9 percent of the time, don’t need a back on the count. We call it a back on the count, someone to back you up because you can’t count by EFTA00111605

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yourself. But they usually have, you know, more than one officer to help them, so usually only people inside SHU count SHU. MR. a : Do you recall who the officers were in the SHU that day? Do the COs fill out any paperwork for the count? MR. a : The count slip. MR. QJ: And what happens to the count slips? MR. a : They hand it to us and we bring it to the Control Center and the Control Center gives it to Control #2, which is C&A, Counts and Assignments and he does a cross list based off of what he has in the computer and what was counted on the units and he’d be the one to say - because they also got to call it in to them besides us giving them the paper. So they’1l tell them right there, “Good count,” ” that means you’re good. “Bad count,” count again. And bad count means obviously you’ ve got the wrong numbers. MR. a : If there’s a bad count, what happens? MR. a : You got to recount, right? If you recount and it’s a bad count again, they EFTA00111606

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 do what’s a bed book count and we get a print out of every inmate’s ID and they’ve got to come to the window, we look at their face, they’ve got to say their name and ID number and we keep moving. If it’s still a bad count from there, they got to make phone calls to Captain and everything and let them know that we have possibly an inmate that escaped or whatever. That’s the Lieutenants, I don’t know, you know, but I just know they get advised, like, “Listen, we did two counts plus a bed book count and it’s still wrong.” MR. a : Okay. Do you recall if you got the count slips from the SHU on August 9th? MR. a : I’d be lying if I told you if I did or didn’t. MR. a : Okay. MR. a: Is it possible? Yes. But because I have a partner, he might have picked it up and I didn’t pick it up. You know what I’m saying? So I don’t remember exact what units I grabbed or didn’t grab. MR. a: Okay. We’ll move on. If an inmate is moved from the SHU to another unit, can you explain the process including who would EFTA00111607

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have to be notified? MR. a : When you say, “Removed,” what do you mean? Like just -- MR. a : Let’s just say -. MR. a : -- just sent back to general population or -. MR. a : Or any other unit. If they move into another unit, including R&D. MR. a : So if an inmate in SHU is on what’s called the kick out list, that means their time is up, you know, with whatever they went in SHU for, their time is up, they get put on a kick out list and the kick out list gets cleared by everybody, SIA, the Captain, R&D, the Lieutenant, everybody signs off on it. There’s a bunch of people. So that usually happens day time, and then by night time, they’re being kicked out because everything was signed off on because they can’t go to certain units with separations or if they had a problem on that unit. So it’s a process. It’s a lot of forms they’ve got to go through. So, right there, if it was on the kick out list, that’s how many people were notified and they already know about it, you know. EFTA00111608

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: What about actually when your physically moving the inmate? Let’s just say the SHU CO is taking the inmate and they’re getting ready to move out, who do they have to - do they have to notify anybody or they just can walk out with the inmate? MR. a : But you’re saying move out where? That’s what -. MR. a: Like, let’s just say they’re moving to R&D. They’re taking an inmate from the SHU and moving to R&D. MR. a: If they’re going to R&D, same sort of thing. They know already, you know, everything that’s going on. Now if they’ re calling for us, they got to tell us, like, “It’s one from SHU,” so we know no one else could be in the elevator because they’re going to be handcuffed -- MR. a: Okay. MR. a : -- and whatnot. So we can’t have no inmates and if they’re going to R&D, we got to say, “Clear R&D, we got one from SHU ” coming,” or attorney conference, lock everybody in or move all the inmates because we’re bringing one to attorney conference. But, EFTA00111609

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 anything else beyond that, they already know 2 about it. 3 MR. a: Okay. Do you recall if any 4 inmates were moved after you started the shift 5 on August 9th, any inmates were moved from the 6 SHU? 7 MR. QJ: «No, I don’t. 8 MR. a: Do you recall seeing inmate 9 Fernandez being moved that day? Do you know 10 who inmate Fernandez is? 11 MR. a : The name sounds familiar, 12 but I can’t put a face to it. 3 MR. a: Was there an inmate in R&D 4 that day? 15 MR. a : There had to be an inmate in 16 R&D. I mean, every day there is, every week 17 there’s inmates in R&D without a - 8 MR. a: Someone that was placed ina 9 dry room. 20 MR. QJ: that 1 couldn’t tell you. 21 MS. RICHMAN: In a dry room? 22 MR. a: Correct. 23 MR. a : A dry cell you 24 MR. a: Dry cell or dry 25 MR. QJ: «bry cell, it’s mean? room. possible EFTA00111610

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 w ~] ive) because there was a lot of inmates going on dry cell at that time but I don’t remember the exact incident. MR. a : Okay. As Internal, and you just mentioned it -- MR. QM: ssves.. MR. a: -- if someone is coming on, if someone is being moved, you call - you radio it, right? MR. QJ: ves. MR. a: You radio the receiving unit? MR. a : Well, they radio me. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : So now, let’s say you’re Special Housing and you’re like, “Internal, can you pick up one kick out, we got three kick outs.” MR. a: Okay. MR. a : And I come to you and you hand me the kick out list, I look, I tell Seven North, “You got one coming to you,” you know, ” “Seven South, you got one coming to you,” and I’ll bring them. “Five North,” whatever the case may be. MR. a: Okay. Does Control get EFTA00111611

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 notified also? MR. a : Yes. Because they got to update - C&A has to update all the, you know, the SENTRY paperwork for the count and everything. MR. a: And are they allowed to move any inmates without notifying Control? MR. QJ: «Cell to cell or unit to unit? MR. a : Unit to unit. MR. a : No. Control has to figure it out because it will mess the count up. If you just move an inmate to Five North and tell nobody, when we do the count, we’re going to want to know why your unit is short and his has an extra body. So eventually, Control has to be notified about something. Now, if it’s just cell to cell, you know, maybe your sink breaks on the unit and you’ve got an empty cell over there and you move him there. That’s, you know, and you do it yourself in the log, that’s different. But anything leaving the unit, Control has to know. MR. a: Okay. And does Control have to open the outer doors for each unit for EFTA00111612

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 people to move or can anyone open those doors? MR. a : Special Housing, they control that front door and upstairs Super Max, they control that front door. MR. a: This is Control you’re talking about. MR. a : Yes. MR. a: Okay. MR. a : Now, regular units, they could control that door, but we have a key also to open it because there’s constant movement, whether they’re going to rec, general population is movement all day. Who is going to psychology, who is going here, so when we come, they could open that door, but in an emergency, Control can pop it. But Super Max, which is Ten South and SHU, nine cell, that front door, they don’t have the key to. They have to -. MS. RICHMAN: It’s all Control. MR. a : Yeah, it’s all Control popping that door. MR. a: Do you have anything else on that? MR. a: After you’re done, I’m EFTA00111613

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE fon) 1 going to go back. 2 MR. a: Okay. And again, when you 3 were on shift that day, do you recall if any 4 inmates were in R&D? w a Like I said, there’s always 6 inmates in R&D so if I had to bet on it, yes, 7 I’m sure there was inmates in there, but I 8 don’t remember exac if there was inmates, 9 how many, you know, who was -. 10 MR. QJ: 9 okay. 11 MR. a : We’ re talking a long time 2 ago and a lot of stuff has happened since, you ive) know. 4 MR. a: I’m going to move on. (Indiscernible c uw a 16 *00: 7 Who is BOP employee FY 20 Case Manager, I believe. I don’t know the 21 exact title but he’s Unit Team - Unit Manager 22 or Case Manager, I don’t - it’s one of those 23 titles. 24 MR. a : Do you recall if he was 25 working on August 9th? EFTA00111614

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ~) ~J] MR. a : The days surrounding the incident, yes, he was working, I just can’t remember if I saw him that exact day. MR. a : Okay. Are you aware that | allowed Epstein to make a telephone call on the evening of August 9th? MR. a : I knew Epstein made a phone call, I didn’t know who gave it to him though. MR. QJ: 9 okay. MR. a : I can’t tell you exactly who gave it to him. Usually it comes from Unit Team, so I’m assuming it was someone from Unit Team. But I - to say it was exactly ma. because I didn’t witness the phone call, I just know he had a phone call. MR. a: So how did you know there was a phone call? MR. a : Because Epstein had mentioned it. MR. QJ: 9 To who? MR. a : In crossing, in the elevator, just in general, you know. I know his lawyer was happy that he had a phone call finally, so, you know. MR. a: So you’re talking about the EFTA00111615

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evening of August 9th. MR. a : Yes. MR. a: And this is when he’s headed back to the SHU? MR. a : Either heading back or going - I just know that his - because, for a while, he wanted what’s called his PAC number. His PAC number is so that he can make a phone call. So the lawyer had asked me, like, “Who do I have to talk to to get him his PAC number.” This is prior to March 9, or -- MS. RICHMAN: August 3th. MR. a : -- August 9th, I’m sorry, I’m all over the place - prior to August 9th. He said, “Yeah,” - she said, “He needs his PAC “” number, just asked, “All right, I’11 find out, you know, why he didn’t get his PAC number.” Turned out he had his PAC number, so I told her the next day, I said, “He has his PAC number.” She said, “All right. He said he didn’t have it,” blah, blah. So when I asked him, I said, “Why did you tell your lawyer you don’t have it? You have it, you showed me.” He said, “No, but they said they monitor those phone calls.” I said, “Yeah. It’s the jail,” you EFTA00111616

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know. So his lawyer then asked, how does he get an unmonitored phone call, to me. I said, “That goes on a different level, a Lieutenant or Unit Team is the only ones that could do that when they’re in Special Housing. An officer cannot do that.” So after that, I remember he kept on wanting a phone call from either Unit Team or the Lieutenant but it was never happening and then that day, I forget how it came up, but he was happy, he was like, “Yeah, I got my phone call finally.” But it wasn’t like a whole conversation, I just remember him saying it. So I know he got a phone call. I just don’t know who gave it to him and, you know, what transpired that got him that phone call, but I know he was finally like, “I got the phone call,” like happy about it. MR. QJ: 9were you present for the phone call when he made the phone call? MR. a: No. MR. a : Do you know where he made that phone call? MR. a : In Special Housing. MR. a: And do you know how the phone EFTA00111617

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 call was made? MR. a : No. That I don’t know, but if I - in Special Housing, normally it’s when he’s in his cell because the phone jacks are on the tier. But one is monitored and one is unmonitored. So, if Unit Team gave it to him, you know, it was probably unmonitored. MR. QJ: 9 Unmonitored? MR. a : Yeah. MR. a : Is that normal practice to give it unmonitored? MR. a: When they’re in Special Housing, yes, so that they can reach out to their lawyer and, you know, we’re not allowed to listen to that type of conversation. But, the officer can’t give him that phone call. It’s Unit Team or a supervisor and what normally happens is they give the card, you know, the lawyer’s card, they’1l call the number, “Okay. It’s here,” and then, “Here,” and give the phone through his slot and then it, you know, it cuts off at a certain time. MR. a: Now being that he was with his lawyers all day and that phone call comes around and what if it wasn’t his lawyer that he EFTA00111618

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 called, what if it was somebody else? Is that MR. a: I mean, I’m not going to say it’s not possible. It’s definitely possible, but from what I’ve seen, when people get phone calls, because I’m not allowed to give unmonitored phone calls, but what I’ve seen is, like I said, they’1ll dial it for the inmate and wait and then, “Oh, Attorney Rodriguez office,” “Oh, okay, you have a client so and so?” “Okay,” and then they hand it. So, but if they have the number written on a piece of paper and you call it and the inmate tells you, “You’re ” my father,” and I’m like, “Just say that you’re Attorney So and So,” how do I know. You know what I’m saying? There’s no way to - so I’m sure there’s a lot of inmates that make unmonitored phone calls and trick whoever is giving it to them, but, as far as I know, that’s how they’re able to judge if it’s an attorney or not. MR. a : Were you asked to monitor that call that night and be with him when he made that phone call that night? MR. EJ: No. = Not - no. EFTA00111619

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B82 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a: Have you heard of ft or any of the COs allowing inmates to make calls using the legal line to people other than attorneys? MR. a : Well, the legal line is the unmonitored line and, like I said, as far as I know, no, but I’m not there every time someone gets a phone call, you know, I can’t vouch for everybody that hits that tier and does something. MR. a: That night when you saw him at last, you mentioned that you had a conversation with him in the -- MR. QJ: Elevator. MR. a: -- elevator. How was his demeanor? MR. a : He seemed happy, you know, I mean, happy that he got the phone call and that’s about it. Like nothing, you know, he was starting to adapt. It seemed like he was starting to adapt. Because when he first came in, I think he thought like, “I’m getting out of here.” He had that mentality, like, “Oh, ” I’m not going to be here long.” Then it sunk in that he was not going nowhere no time soon EFTA00111620

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and that’s when he seemed a little down and then he started being, you know, I guess adapting I would say, he was getting used to things, like, you know. MR. a: Okay. How was Epstein’s interactions with other inmates? MR. a : Truthfully, he was never really around other inmates, just through the windows on the tier and because he was never in general population, so, whenever he was around an inmate it was - even when he went to attorney conference, he was locked in a room, so it was always just through passing, but -. MS. RICHMAN: I’m just getting the court appearance ready, so. MR. a: Okay. We'll make it quickly. I only have a few more and I think he has follow up questions. MR. QJ: Yeah. = Yeah. MR. a: Do you know if there was any threats made to Epstein? MR. a : Not that I know of. MR. a: Okay. And were you working on August 10th when Epstein was found? MR. a : No. I worked the evening 83 EFTA00111621

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 84 watch before he did it, so the 9th. I worked until midnight and then that was it. MR. a : I didn’t work the night that he - the overnight, so, when he actually did MR. a : Yeah, so back to this PAC number, so who provided him the PAC number to be able to make phone calls, Epstein? MR. a : I don’t know. Like I said, “ wu I just asked him, “You never got a PAC number?” And he was like, “What’s the PAC number again?” And when I described the paper, he showed me the paper so someone gave it to him. So you saw he had -- -- actually. a : I saw he had the actual -. MR. Ee : And when was th MR. a : That was when he was still with Tartaglione. MR. ae : So that was actually even prior to his suicide -- t? i EFTA00111622

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 ~] wo 10 11 MR. QJ: 9 sves. MR. a : And is it - in order to have a PAC number, do you always have to maintain possession of that -. MR. a : No, a lot of guys remember it, you know, up here. MR. a : Okay. But if he was provided it prior to Tartaglione, did that mean that that would have still been his PAC number after he came back from suicide watch? MR. a : Yes. Your PAC number is your PAC number. MR. a : All right. And you’ re positive he actually had one. MR. a : Well, I mean, he showed me a paper with it. Whether it was someone else’s paper, why would he do that, but he showed me a paper with a PAC number on it. MR. Ee : And he responded, “Yeah, I have this, but I can’t - but those calls are monitored.” MR. BMJ: ves. MR. a : Okay. When you said on August 9th, you know the telephone call took place, do you know when the telephone call took EFTA00111623

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LIMITED ~] wo 10 11 OFFICIAL USE 8 on place? MR. GJ: = No. MR. a : So then you said you saw him after the telephone call in the elevator? MR. a : I saw him after he left his attorneys in the elevator because we picked him up to bring him back to Special Housing. MR. a : Okay. So, that was -. MR. a : It think it was around that time. MR. Ee : So when you saw him in the - MS. RICHMAN: Can you give them the time of day? MR. GJ: «No. MS. RICHMAN: Approximately? MR. a : Because I’m trying to remember now if I heard it - I heard it in the elevator for sure. I don’t want to say it was bringing him back because now I’m trying to think if it was when I was bringing him back or bringing him to. I don’t know, to be honest, it’s -. MR. a : Do you know if he’s the one who told you that he got to make his EFTA00111624

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 87 telephone call? MR. a : Yes, that I know. MR. a : So you do know that Epstein actually told you a telephone call was Yeah. Whether it - what time of day it was on my sh , I can’t remember. MR. a : Now, did you -. “I finally got my But I know he told me, lik a call,” like, you know. were you in the SHU after he returned to the Okay. And was that - back. I definitely had to touch SHU a few I probably brought inmates times, I just don’t remember exactly like if I passed him or, you know. communicating with him? MR. QJ: «stn suv? Yeah. Yeah. EFTA00111625

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE MR. Ee : Because the only reason I ~] wo 10 11 ask, because it’s our understanding that he actually placed that telephone call after he came back from attorney conferences. But you know that you actually spoke to him on his way back -- MR. a : Unless -. MR. a : -- from attorney. MR. a : I mean, he said, yeah, I definitely happened before he came back. I mean, he definitely said it. But, he could have just been excited that they told him he was going to get the phone call. MR. QR: «Xo. MR. a : And maybe I just, in crossing, then - I know he mentioned the phone call and he was happy. MR. a : You’re the one who actually brought him from attorney conference back up to the SHU? MR. QJ: «9 that day? MR. ae : Yeah. MR. a : Because it’s me and my partner, we both do it. So I can’t remember exactly that day if I brought him into the SHU 88 EFTA00111626

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo ite) 1 or if my partner did or both of us did, I ies) a Okay. So this 4 conversation that you had with him though -. w a H rt happened during my shift. 7 MR. a : But you don’t know that 8 it happened on August 9th. 9 MR. a : Yeah, it could have happened 10 - I thought it happened on August 9th, to be 11 honest. 2 MR. a : No, no, no. So when you 3 were in the elevator with him, was anybody else 4 in the elevator with you? 5 MR. a : Possibly my partner. the Captain and or t oO Fs) i) i= ~ jon Lee) 5 No =) id H 8 ean as, not to 21 it would be crazy if they were becaus 22 they could have been, but they definitely 23 weren’t when this happened. No 5 Were you in the elevator No w at all when potentially the Captain authorized EFTA00111627

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 the telephon ie] i] Q fu b b rt Oo WwW 5 re w ig c al 10) be 7 remember Yeah 8 MR. a : Is there a reason wi 9 and ft would have been escorting 10 elevator back to 1 MR. a : Maybe we were caught up 2 doing something else because anybody can move ive) wu Ss inmate. like -. t oO a Was he going back and the day or was it t once in the morning and once at night? is] oo us. 9 MR. a : times it was just once 20 and once. But there was other, you know, 21 situation, maybe he was hungry or he forgot 22 something or his lawyer, for whatever reason, 23 had to step out to do something else and I half hour.” 24 said, “I’1ll come back in wu EFTA00111628

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. a : So it’s not abnormal if he WwW 5 a w 4 MR. a : You know, there were days 5 that remember him going back and forth a few 6 times. 7 MR. a : Do you know if on 8 7 before his death, he went back and ) times You don’t know. I can’t remember. ive) a) N 5 o 5 wu oy Okay. And when they is) o w Qa tal wu and forth though, does Internal always have to be with him or no? t oO a n No. That’s what I’m saying. 8 MR a : You know, most of the time, 9 it’s us because that’s our post. 22 huge situation on one of the units and me and 23 the Internals handling it, they may ask another 24 officer that’s freed up, like, “Listen, bring 25 him back,” you know, or, “Do what EFTA00111629

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 do,” you know, it’s not abnormal for someone 2 else to do it. 3 MR. a : Okay. But you weren’t 4 present for that telephone call and you didn’t 5 overhear anything. 6 MR. GJ: No. 7 MR. a : Okay. I just want to 8 show you real quick. This won’t take but a 9 minute or two hopefully. Where is the 10 Lieutenant’s log? 11 MR. a: Which day are you looking 2 for? 3 MR. QJ: the 9th. All right. So 4 according to the Lieutenant’s log, you see at 15 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on dry 16 cell from the ZA. 7 MR. a : Okay. 8 MR. QJ: 411 right. so, if that 9 happens at 3:15, but the 4:00 p.m. count, 20 should have they had a count slip for him? 21 MR. a : Well, what happens is - so, 22 it doesn’t say where the dry cell - where they 23 moved him -- 24 MR. QM: Right. EFTA00111630

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. Ee : It just says, “From ZA,” right. MR. a : Exactly. But -. MR. a : Sorry, so the top says, “Inmate Fernandez on dry cell with staff watching R&D.” MR. a : Okay, so there you go. So what would happen is, especially that it’s specified right there, R&D would have their own count slip. So R&D has their own count slips sometimes because people come back from court, let’s say, right before the count and we didn’t get to put them back in the unit so they stay in R&D. So there’s plenty of times R&D will give us a count slip, like, “We got three " inmates in here,” “We got four inmates or one.” So, in this situation, he would be on R&D’s count slip. MR. QJ: Okay. Is R&D responsible for calling someone, whether Internal or Control to say, “Hey, we’ve got a count slip for your guys?” MR. QJ: = Yeah. MR. a: How does that work? EFTA00111631

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. QJ: well -. MR. a : Or do you just go to every unit? - at 4:00 p.m., you would have visited R&D to say, “Hey, you got a count slip for us?” MR. a : Well, it all depends because what happens is, R&D has, you know, quite a bit of staff members in it. So let’s say, for whatever reason, you work in R&D and you’re going downstairs for something, you’ll bring your own count slip down. And then, as I’m doing the count, I’11 ask Control, “What count slips are you missing?” “Oh, Seven North and Seven South,” So I’m not even going to go to R&D because you didn’t say R&D, which means someone brought you the count slip. So it’s possible, yeah, we do go if we have to but it’s not always because sometimes people bring the count slip down, you know. MR. a : Okay. So if at 3:15 he’s moved there, should have been a count slip for EFTA00111632

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LIMITED ies) wi co wo i=) ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE ite] wi him in R&D at 4:00 p.m. though? sure, that’s why I was wondering if like there ’ should have been a count. So there’s no count slip for him at 4:00 p.m. We’re wondering if - MR. Ee : -- that’s something that there should have been. Now as far as - what I’m looking for the midnight. So as far as this R&D count slip -- MR. a : -- do you see this one MR. QJ: uh-huh. MR. a : What would 95 pies-+ 1 EFTA00111633

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LIMITED ios) w co io Ww co OFFICIAL USE te] an MR. a : I don’t know. MR. a: You ever seen a pivs-+ 1 a doodle, you know, like write their own thing in to figure out a count, but I don’t know where that would MR. a : Oh yeah, Nine South pts MR. a : What do you mean? count slip for the SHU. wu Bb wn ie] wn fu 1) J Wo MR. a : Do you think that they EFTA00111634

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re) ~ LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 at all related? Do you remember that? Would 2 that be something that you - as Internal, when 3 you picked up - you would be the one that would 4 probably pick up that count slip, correct, at 5 10:00 p.m.? 6 MR. a : Well, yeah, or like I said, 7 someone else brings it down. Like, “Look, I 8 counted with North.” But anybody could have 9 brought it down. You know what I’m saying? 10 MR. Ee : But have you ever seen 11 like a pies—+ 1 on any -- 2 MR. QJ: No. 3 MR. a : -- of these before? 4 MR. a : And truthfully, that pies—+ 15 1 and that ptes-+ 1 are the same handwriting, 16 so it might have been -- 7 MR. ae: 8 MR. a : -- put on there after the 9 fact. 20 MR. QJ: | So you believe it was 21 probably like Control that did it or -. 22 MR. a : Because I’ve never see extra 23 stuff written on a count slip. 24 MR. SR: «No? 25 MR. QJ: 9 suh-uh. EFTA00111635

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LIMITED ive) w co ive) tes) OFFICIAL USE 98 MR. Ee : So you don’t recall on August 9th though, picking up something that said, “Ptes-+ 1?” MR. QJ: 411 right. And then -. a MS. MR. a: for midnight, MR. a : Would have you on CHMAN: There is none. this count slip involved in that count? 7e I? Yes. this one MR. QJ: 411 right. says, “RA count 1.” Would that be also R&D? s th mo only that has a pies-+ 1 and Fernandez EFTA00111636

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo 10 11 \o MR. Ee : -- it says, “One,” but it ys, “RA,” and I’m wondering if R&D, which was at 10:00 p.m., and RA that was at midnight, are they for the same unit? MR. a : I can’t rem- what’s RA? I’m having like major brain fog right now. MR. a : But there is no RA for any of these. MR. a : No, yeah, no, that I know. MR. a : And then all of a sudden, there’s no R&D for these, o the assumption is i] i] that, since there’s one here and one there, RN, R&D are the same, but are you able to shed some light on that? MR. a : Let me look at - you have here, here’s the count, let me see something. This is the 12 o'clock, let me look at the MR. Ee : You don’t - these are all messed up, so they’re probably not even going to help you. MR. a : No, I’m looking at the codes. Truthfully, it’s possible, but -. MR. a : Okay. You don’t know? MR. QJ: 9 yeah. EFTA00111637

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OFFICIAL USE 100 Have you ever even seen 2 RA before though? ies) i I’ve definitely seen RA w 3) just can’t -. be an actual different co c Ss + oO a the units, i=) code. T! code for a but it co 1 guy watching suicide watch is HA. If maintenance, there’s a code for remember if WwW ct oa cu) a I’m trying to someone cleaning up 16 MR Ee : Okay. But it doesn’t 7 tell you that that’s R&D Lee) 5 Being that we -- normally I’ve seen cell in R&D Fernande know N } it) = 3 and -- It’ ifs] EFTA00111638

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 ~] wo 10 11 MR. a : But I’m not -- MR. a : -- sure. MR. a : -- a hundred percent sure to be able to answer that, you know. MR. a : Okay. Is there anything you wanted - I know that they’ve got to go, so is there anything else you wanted to ask -- M 19) RICHMAN: No, no, we’re fine. MR. a : -- with the counsel? MS. RICHMAN: I can do it right here. MR. Es : Oh, okay. But you’ve never seen, “Ptus-+ 1.” You believe that that was more than likely added on the 10:00 p.m. count after the count slips were returned? MR. a : Yes, because normally, see how you see all the checkmarks? MR. ae : Yeah. MR. a : Cross offs? So when you get the count slip, R&A, Control #2 does the checkmarks to make sure, “Okay, right unit, right number, right date, everything is signed.” If something is written on it, normally you’d be like, “I’m not taking this,” because it could become official document. MR. CR: | Richt. EFTA00111639

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. a : You know? The back, sometimes people write on the back, you know, math to try to figure out exactly what their numbers are, but on the front, normally you’re not writing nothing on the front because you know it’s an official document, you know -- MR. a : Okay. MR. a : -- they could pull it at any time, as you can see. So, I’m surprised to see that there’s something written on the front, I don’t know. MR. a : But you do not recall actually being involved in the midnight count on August 9th going into August 10th? MS. RICHMAN: He left. MR. QJ: se «left. MR. a : I was (Indiscernible *01:14:07). MS. RICHMAN: He was the 4:00. MR. QJ: 411 right. so -- MS. RICHMAN: He was the 4:00. MR. ae : -- do you know who would have collected these count slips at midnight? MR. a : Well, besides Internal, midnight sometimes they count whoever they EFTA00111640

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 103 relieved and the relief brings it down. I ask, because you see how ZA, the count slip All right. So the reason says 73? I know I wasn’t there, so -. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. That’s where I wanted -. messing with no numbers, but, yeah, I don’t You know, that’s - I’m not know how that - yeah. You don’t know how that - have you ever seen that happen before? MR. GR: No. one thing and - now, do people mess up and write the wrong number? Yeah. But, C&A is supposed ue to say, Ss oO nd this back, you know, that’s a bad count what you wrote on your slip, that’s what EFTA00111641

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] you called in.” MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a : Because, see the X, you do one line when they call it in. So you call me in, you call in, “ZA 72,” one line, good count, send paperwork. When I get the paperwork, see how you’re checking? “73, negative, send that back, that’s not what you called in.” MR. QR: Okay. MR. QJ: | “okay, what did I call in?” That’s - then count again. “I’m not going to tell you what you called in. MS. RICHMAN: Do you want to pause? MR. ae : I think we can be done. But, yeah, we can pause. Let me - I’m just going to pause the recording real quick. Get that. This is Special Agent | a. and it is currently 12:31 p.m. We are pausing the recording. MR. QJ: tt is currently 12:42 p.m. on July 15, 2021 and we are reconvening. And sir, I’ll just remind you that it’s a voluntary interview and you are under oath. All right, a. you had a few follow ups that you wanted to do on that. 104 EFTA00111642

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : All right. MR. a: So you mentioned earlier that when the Control officer checks off the count slips -- MR. a : Yes. MR. a: -- they mark it? MR. a : Yeah, so, on the paper here first, right? This is a must. This -. MR. a: That would be the E-1 document, right? MR. a : Yes. What happens is you do one line in the X when they call you and it’s right, you make the line, you hang up. When you get the paperwork and check it and it matches what they called in, you do the second line. So this is a must. This, I don’t know if there’s a rule about it, but I know since I’ve worked that post, you know, I was always taught that that’s how you do it, make sure unit is correct because sometimes people - if you work overtime on one unit, then all of a sudden you go to another, you might forget and put that unit’s number on it. So, the units are right, the dates are right time, number, you got two signatures, we’re good. EFTA00111643

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LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE to right now is the count MR. track of what it is MR. MR. Now, W 106 what you’re referring correc 1 right. e’re looking at the -. oO verything looking at the August EFTA00111644

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 wi ~] wo 10 11 12 MR. a : Truthfully, I would not know why all of them were checked off except those two because even if there was a mistake on it and it had to be re-ran, you still check after it’s re-ran, so I don’t know why it would be, you know, those would be the only two not checked. MR. a: And you mentioned that it looks like the handwriting on both of those -. MR. a : The added number on the front, the piys-+ 1 on it -. MR. BR: = MR. a : It looks it because it doesn’t look like the handwriting on either one the same? 7] of them -- MR. Ee : Right, so for -- MR. a : -- of the people that -. MR. a : -- the R&D where it says - looks like, “9S phis—-+ 1,” and then the ZA where it says, “73 pivs—+ 1.” MR. a : Yeah. In my opinion, it doesn’t look like the people that filled out the count slips handwriting. MR. es : Sure. And then who was the one that actually checks this off? Is that EFTA00111645

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 the Internal or is that Control? 2 MR. a : No, that’s Control #2 which is called C&A, Counts and Assignments. 4 MR. a : And they would be the one ies) 5 to, as they’re going through it, to actually 6 mark off the count slips? 7 MR. a : Yeah, because they handling 8 the E-1 and they’re doing the good verbal and 9 the count. 10 MR. QJ: okay. 11 MR. a: According to the roster, who 2 would that C&A be for the 10:00 p.m. count? ive) Fs) On the 9th? 4 MR. QJ: §9oon the 9th. WM: ons the 9th, 10:00 p.m., it t wi a F oO O c = ion o 0 7 MR. a: And who would it have been 8 for the midnight count? oO a3 That would be the 10th then, 20 right? 21 MR. QJ: Yeah, 10th, midnight. 22 MR. QJ: 910th, midnight? All right, 23 so the 10th, midnight, it could have been 24 Andrea, but also, sometimes the Lieutenant 25 takes it at midnight. EFTA00111646

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. a: Okay. And if a Lieutenant 2 does the count, do they - are they supposed to 3 do the same thing? Check it off, each line? 4 MR. a : I mean, on the E-1l, yes. 5 This, like I said, I don’t know if there’s a 6 rule for this, it’s just the way I was taught and a lot of senior officers do it. So, I 8 don’t know, you know, a lot of Lieutenants come 9 from other institutions, they were taught 10 different. So it’s not odd if the Lieutenant 11 that took the count didn’t do it, but most of 2 the time they would and -. Ww Fs) r =] jen wu n hh wu i] | Oo i=] 17) wu bh Q t wi i K oO wu a 7 at 10:00 p.m.? 8 MR. a : Yeah, so that’s - yeah, 9 but - 20 MR. QJ: «Or: so would that be 21 (Phonetic Sp. *01:19:29)? Which one would 22 actually -- 23 MR. a : Oh, yeah, so, yeah, possibly 24 | did it because, yeah, you’re right, 25 WM «finished at 10:00 so Control takes EFTA00111647

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 ies) w ~] wo i=) ive) w over, yeah, so it would be | most likely. MR. a : So would have || done also the midnight or would he also have been relieved early and then the next person would have done it? MR. a : No, so midnight would either be his relief, unless he didn’t get relieved, which on here it shows someone else took over. So it would be his relief or, like I said, the Ops Lieutenant usually takes the midnight count if they’re able to. MR. QR: okay. MR. a: That’s all I got. (Indiscernible *01:20:00). MR. a : No, I guess just the main thing would be, you’ve never seen a pivs—+ one on count slips before? MR. a : Handed in, no. MR. ee : Yeah, but what about -- MR. QR: Now, if -- MR. ae : -- after the fact? Does MR. a : -- if after the fact, I don’t see it, so, it’ 103) possible once I hand it to Control, you know, I never see the count EFTA00111648

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 w ~] slip again. So maybe that’s normal for someone in Control that works Control. MR. a : But me picking it up, no, I’ve never seen it actually picking up with a number on the front like that. MR. QM: 411 right, so, would it be your educated guess then, and it is a guess, that the 10:00 p.m. count were these two, the ZA and the R&D, would your guess be that that was done by somebody other than the unit themselves? MR. a : I would assume -- MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a : -- it would be a guess like you said, but -. MR. a : Somebody in Control more than likely or who was doing the count? MR. a : Whoever was taking the count or whatnot, you know, whoever was in the Control Center, somehow that I would assume that that’s where it came from. MR. Ee : And again, this would be an interpretation, but do you have an educated interpretation what this 9S +pies 1 and the 723 EFTA00111649

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 +pivis 1 would mean? MR. a : No. Because if I had to guess, if you were saying that the 73 was wrong and it was supposed to be 74, you would just fill out a new count slip and put 74. You're not going to put a ptes-+ 1 on there so I don’t understand why there would be a plis—+ 1 there. It doesn’t make no sense to me. MR. a : And did you ever hear of ghost counting? MR. a : Yes, I’ve heard of ghost counting. But even if you ghost count, you would not put pies—-+ 1 on there. The count slip would reflect, you know? MR. a : Okay. Now, do you know anything about if - so, for instance, if the 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. numbers are - they match up on the count slips as well as on the E-1, however they’re actually wrong, both of them, do the people that in, for instance, the SHU, have access to the number that Control is looking for? MS. RICHMAN: Say that again. MR. a : Yeah. MR. a : So for education EFTA00111650

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 purposes, this is - the number that is on this 2 which says, “Census column,” -- ies) a Yes. That’s the active 4 number. 5 MR. a : -- or the count actually 6 — 7 MR. a : Yes. 8 MR. a : -- is the amount of 9 people that per Control are supposed to be in 10 that unit. So, if the number that is supposed 11 to be in the unit matches up with the count 2 slip that is provided -- WwW Fs) fe) = w 4 MR. ae : -- but they’re both wrong, my question is, let’s assume that that w 7 MR. QJ: 9 uh-huh. 8 MR. a : My question is, the 9 people in the SHU, do they have access to the 20 number that they’re supposed to provide? 21 MR. a : So wait, you’re saying like 22 - 23 MR. a : So the SHU has to give an 24 account slip and then the people in Control 25 need to say, “Yep, that’s the number we’ve EFTA00111651

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 got.” 2 MR. a : Yes. First you got to call 3 it in and they got to clear it before you even 4 write your paper, your count slip. w a Okay. 6 MR. a : That’s why it’s called -- 7 MR. a : So I guess there will be 8 -- 9 MR a : -- the (Indiscernible 10 *01:22:56) 11 MR. Ee : -- two follow up question 2 to that then now. So if they’re writing down a 3 number that they think Control has, do they 4 have way to know the number that Control has? 5 MS. RICHMAN: Beforehand. 16 MR a : Oh, okay, I get what you’re 7 saying. Like access to what Control is looking 8 at 9 Correct. What number 20 -- suppose to report. 23 yes and no. The reason 24 why I say that is, not everybody has access to 25 that But, let’s I work that post three EFTA00111652

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 days a week and two days a week I work somewhere else. I have access to it because I’m there three days a week. MR. a : So if you’re working in Control, if you go to SHU, you’d actually still have access -- MR. a : Exactly. MR. QM: -- to that. MR. a : So you still have access to it. So it’s possible that someone had access because they don’t just take it immediately, your access, you know, if you’re there three days a week, you’re going to have it. So, it’s possible, yes, but as far as knowing if they did, I don’t know. I don’t know who has access, who doesn’t. Like I had access for a long time, then they took it because I stopped working here for a while, so I don’t know who has it and who doesn’t. I don’t even know who takes it and gives it, to be honest. MR. a : And have you ever experience anything where the person calling in the number actually says, “Hey, what number am I supposed to have?” MR. J: No. EFTA00111653

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 2 happen? 1 MR. Ee : So that never would 3 MR. I mean, not that it would 4 never but it’s never happened in my interaction 5 of working that post and calling in a count. 6 MS. RICHMAN: Because that would put you on the line because there’s something missing. oO a Oo =) wu 10 MR. a : And also -. 11 MR. Ee : So would those calls be 2 recorded, what they’re calling into Control? 3 MR. a : I would assume. It’s the 4 government. I’m assuming all the -- f fo] a i} i} Q fw B } OT 7 MR. ae : Do you know how long those calls would be monitored? I mean would co 9 be retained? 20 MR. QJ: «st have no idea. That, you 21 know, that’s not something I would know. But, 22 I would assume you could get access to phone 23 calls if you had to 24 MR. a : Okay. So not only from 25 inmates, but also between officers. EFTA00111654

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. a : I’d better check on it. MR. a : Right. Okay. So do you think the more likely scenario though, if those numbers are in fact wrong on both the count slip as well as with Control, that the people would have had access to the Control number to be able to write in that, the number that they were looking for? MR. a : I mean, it’s possible because you brought up a ghost count. Ghost count does happen, but, this reflects it. You know what I’m saying? MR. QJ: | uh-huh. MS. RICHMAN: Why don’t you explain ghost count to make sure you’re both understanding what a -- MR. a : Okay. MR. QJ: «what is the -. MS. RICHMAN: -- ghost count is. MR. QJ: ss what is a ghost - what is a ghost count? MR. a : So, what a ghost count would be, let’s say - I’m trying to think of a scenario where it would - okay, it’s count is on. I’m counting, all of a sudden, you’re EFTA00111655

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 throwing up crazy, like ridiculously and there’s blood in the throw up and everything. So I call for Medical. Medical is like, “Bring him to me, you know, bring him to Medical.” I bring him to Medical. We’re not going to change the count for your unit, we know where he’s at. MR. QM: Right. MR. a : We visually see him in Medical, we know he’s in Medical. So, although you may only have 72 people on your unit now because on is in Medical, we may say, “ghost count, we know where he’s out, we got a visual, ” just keep his as 73 on your unit,” instead of doing a whole new SENTRY, that he’s in Medical and we’re going to send him right back. MR. ee: So for the 4:00 p.m. count, if Fernandez is moved at 3:15 to R&D dry cell, would that be a reason to do a ghost count at 4:00 p.m.? MR. a : In my opinion, yes and no. I say yes because, yeah, it’s possible. No, because the log is updated. So if you had time to update the log and put him in -. MR. a: What if the log is not EFTA00111656

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Wh 1 updated at that time? 2 MR. a: That’s 3 vu. a: -- 4 until -- 5 MR. QJ: «Okay, 6 scenario 7 MR. i: -- 8 MR. QJ: «so if 9 that time, you have time 10 the stuff. If it wasn’t, 11 possible he was ghost cou 2 said, as long as you’ve g 3 you know where he’s at an 4 count time, it’s possible 15 pretty early, so. 16 MR. J: «so 7 moved out of the SHU, obv 8 the outer door has to be 9 MR. a : Contro 20 R. i: -- 21 so they obviously would h 22 correct? 23 MR. QJ: 9 ves 24 MR. J: «tha 25 moved -- 119 at if he’s not -- different. keyed out of the unit that’s a different much later? the log was updated at to do all the rest of then yeah, it’s nted, because, like I ot a visual on him and and it happened around - But 3:15 is still if 3:15 Fernandez is iously, like you said, l has to do it. Control has to pop it ave to be notified, t Fernandez is being EFTA00111657

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MR. QJ: 9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- to a dry cell. Who would be responsible for keying Fernandez out of the SHU and placing him in a different unit? MR. a : That would be Control #2, MR. a : So Control would be not the SHU staff? MR. a : SHU, if they have access, can do it. But as far as SENTRY paperwork, that’s the Control Center. MR. a : So Control should have been the one that did that? MR. a : Yeah, the Counts and Assignment Officer, which is C&A Control #2 in the Control Center, they’re the ones that would do the SENTRY paperwork for hat. MR. a : And would they know if they say, moving Fernandez to R&D dry cell, would they know automatically, “I need to key him out,” or would that be something that SHU would also say, “Can you key in the -.” MR. a : It depends who’s working the SHU and what they have access to. You know, I had senior officers that, like I said, have EFTA00111658

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 access to it and they’1ll tell Control, “I got it. Don’t worry about it, I know you’re busy, you’re doing everything else, I got it.” But if you have someone working the SHU, which is very possible because of all the overtime, who doesn’t have access or doesn’t know how to do it, they’re not doing it, Control has to -. MR. a : But would that be a conversation they would have about -- MR. QJ: yes. 1 -. MR. a : -- who was actually going to key him out? MR. a : Exactly. That’s the conversation they’re having. MR. a : And so there’s not an automatic control being like, “We’1ll do it.” It’s actually a conversation they should have. MR. a : Well, regardless, a conversation they’re going to have because Control looks on camera, pops the door, they don’t know that inmate, what numbers he is, where - you know, so they would have to SHU and say, “Inmate so and so, what’s his reg number? What’s his ID number so I can do all the paperwork for it?” You know, you can’t just EFTA00111659

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 w ~] ive) assume by looking at the camera, you know, the cameras is - I don’t know about now, but they used to not be that clear where you could tell exactly what inmate, you know. MR. a : Would that be done over the radio that this conversation would have or it would done on the phone? MR. a : On the phone most likely. MR. a : Over the phone? MR. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a : You’re not goin that information over the radio. You may say, Q rt Oo a) wu ke fw = b “SHU, when you get a chance, call me at C&A.” MR. a : But would you say on the radio, “Moving this guy to dry cell,” or would you say, “Control we need -” - you know, when they’ re looking to actually - the SHU is looking to actually move this guy down to dry - first of all, SHU would do it, right? Not Internal? MR. a : Well, it all depends what’s going on but Internal could help with the move. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : But the Lieutenant would be EFTA00111660

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 advised first. We can’t just put someone on dry cell. wR. QJ: Right. MR. a : So what would happen is a situation had to happen. For you to go on - you know what dry cell is or no? MS. RICHMAN: Explain it -- MR. a : Explain it, go ahead. MS. RICHMAN: -- to them because I think that there might be a disconnect -- MR. a : Yeah. MS. RICHMAN: -- in terms of -- MR. a : Dry cell -. MS. RICHMAN: -- what they understand. MR. a : Dry cell is an inmate possibly swallowed drugs or something, we don’t know what it is. So he swallowed it, so we put him on dry cell, which means he has to use the bathroom three times and a supervisor has to go through it to see if there’s drugs in there before he can get cleared coming off dry cell. And he has to be visually watched. So what happens is, if someone goes on dry cell, the Lieutenant is advised immediately because either you’re in a tussle with the inmate where EFTA00111661

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he tried to put the drugs in his mouth or you’re seeing him through a cell and you’re like, “LT, I got one, he just swallowed drugs,” or, “I need you to respond.” Then the Lieutenant makes the decision to put him on dry cell. I’m not just putting someone randomly on dry cell. MR. QJ: Yeah. MR. a : So, the Control may know over the radio or may not because if all I say is, “I need a Lieutenant in Special Housing and a Lieutenant come up and I’m verbal and everything to him and I’m not saying it over the radio and the Lieutenant is like, “All ” right, put him on dry cell, come on,” you know, “Strip him out and everything.” Control don’t know what’s going on, they just know I asked for a Lieutenant. You know what I’m saying? MR. Ee : So my questions is though, when they’re actually making the move down to dry cell, is that on the radio, “Control, can you pop the door? We’re moving him to dry cell,” or is that always a phone call? MR. a : Like I said, obviously EFTA00111662

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Control has to know to pop the door, but you might not be telling them everything over the radio. MR. QJ: Right. MR. a : You might just say - there’s a bell on the outside of the door, so the Lieutenant rings the bell, “Control, I need the 27 door popped for Lieutenant [.” They’ re going to pop it because they look on camera, the Lieutenant is there. Now once he’s inside, the door is locked, “Control, we need 27 popped, exiting with one.” Now we’re exiting. Now from there, if I’m in the Control Center, I’m calling SHU, like, “Yo, is that inmate coming back? What’s going on?” So and so. But everybody works different. MR. ee: All right, so, I guess this will be my last questions. MR. a : There’s no protocol exactly on how to communicate that movement because you don’t know if he’s coming back, you don’t know. I’m assuming if an inmate went to R&D for dry cell, they would put him on what’s called the X-ray machine because there’s a machine in R&D that reads the body, like the TSA machines. EFTA00111663

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Because you could do dry cell in Special Housing, you don’t have to move them for that. If you have an empty cell, you shut the water off, you put them in dry cell in Special Housing with the Lieutenant. So the fact that they went to R&D, it was probably to do a body scan to see if something was in his stomach or that area. MR. a : Okay. MR. a : And if you’re doing that, it’s possible he’s going back so you’re not going to tell Control right away because if I don’t see nothing on the scan, the Lieutenant ” may say, “I’m not putting him,” you know, and that’s it. MR. a : That was going to be my question, although I thought you answered it by saying there’s no standard protocol, but do you have like a best guess educated, you know, guess on Lieutenant’s log says, “Fernandez is moved at 3:15 down to R&D dry cell,” -- MR. QJ: «9 uh-huh. MR. a : -- however he’s never keyed out of SHU. Best guess, of when it, you know, what happened basically. EFTA00111664

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LIMITED ies) w co wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 27 MR. a : Truthfully, no. There’s no way, you know, there’s a million scenarios that could have went down. You would have to literally talk to the Lieutenant or the Control Center to figure out exactly what, you know. MR. a : Is there anything else you wanted to add regarding Epstein or I guess I should just ask you the general question. Do you know if anyone was to harm his own life? MR. a : Okay. Anything else you oh, I know that you all said for the record, you wanted to talk about something else. We’1l EFTA00111665

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 schedule that for a later date. 2 MR. a : Yes, I would like that. 3 MR. a : Okay. Great. All right 4 and anything before we shut off this recorder? 5 MS. RICHMAN: No. 6 MR. a : Okay. Thank you very much for your time and your and your ~] 8 cooperation. It is currently 1:00 p.m. on July 9 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent | 10 fF and I’m turning off the recorder. EFTA00111666

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U CERTIFICATE certify that the foregoing pz EFTA00111668