10 11 12 13 18 19 20 21 22 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL DECEMBER 2, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 ra Hills, CA 91301 e: EFTA00110002

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ies) OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL co EFTA00110003

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : All right. The recorder is on. There is also going to be - I'm just going to go over, like, a list of - it’s kind of, like, an introduction, and just kind of a preamble into what we are going to be discussing, and who you are. It’s going to sound very scripted, and that’s because it pretty much is. But you are there still. Correct? MS. Ha: Yes. Mm-hmm. MR. a : Perfect. All right. So, my name is | a. and I am a Senior Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General. New York Field Office. Boston Area Office. This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons Associate Warden, FY | | - did I say that correctly? MS. Ha: Yes. Correct. Mm-hmm. MR. a : Is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, or DOJ/OIG, investigation. Today’s date is December 2nd, 2021, and the time is 10:34 a.m. This interview is being conducted by telephone. I EFTA00110004

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ioe) oO 9 OFFICIAL USE 4 Ms. ia. by telephone number 9ecial Agent | will be re + i] U /OIG orded by s interview ple Could everyone the record, ell ur name for Hel circumstances, and provide pw Q 5 o © ct Oo EFTA00110005

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 wm MS. a: Yes. I do. MR. a : Perfect. And were you able to review the voluntary interview form that I sent to you via email, the DOJ/OIG form III-226/2? MS. a: Yes, I was. Yes, I did. MR. a : Perfect. And thank you for sending it back to me a few minutes ago. I see that you signed and dated it. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And do you understand the OIG form? MS. Ha: Yes, I do. MR. QJ: Perfect. And just, I'm going to just going to read it for the record, so that that’s something that we have to do. It says, United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. EFTA00110006

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 This investigation pertains job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing to make statements and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” And I see that you signed your signature. You printed your name, | i. And you dated and time 12/02/21, at 9:00 a.m. So, I assume that is the time that you reviewed the form? MS. Ha: Yes. MR. a : Perfect. And that is your signature on this form? MS. Ha: Yes, it is. MR. a : Awesome. And is there any questions you have with regard to the EFTA00110007

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 interview, or this form? MS. Ha: No. I don’t. MR. a : Awesome. So, I will be signing my name as the Special Agent. And then, I will print my name under that as the Special Agent. a. do you mind - since this is a telephone interview, you’re not present - do you mind if I sign for you, and place that it was me that signed for you, and print your name as the witness? MR. a : I don’t mind. MR. a : Perfect. All right. So, I will sign for you, and then print your name, and I will add the telephone number that we are, as the place. Great. Let me get back to this. Before starting the interview, I would like to place you under oath. Ms. ia. can you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MS. ia: Yes, I do. MR. a : Perfect. Thank you. And then, because we are not in person, I'm just going to have to ask you a couple questions to verify your identity. What is your current EFTA00110008

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED oO io ioe) oO oo wo OFFICIAL USE 8 home address? MR. a : Thank you. And what is foi MR. a : Perfect. Thank you. And how long approximately, was? MR. Ee : Perfect. And what is current position MR. City in EFTA00110009

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 wo MR. Ee : And how long have you held that position? MS. a: I’ve been - well, I’ve been at this present duty station since officially September, but physically here in October. But I’ve been an associate warden for, prior to that. MR. a : Okay. So, you’ve been basically you were remote in September, and then physically present in October of this current year, 2021? MS. a: Correct. MR. a : Perfect. And you - I'm sorry - you said you’ve been an associate warden since when? MS. Ha: I’ve been an associate warden since - we’re in 2021 - I think 2017. MR. a : Since 2017? Ms. QR: 9 uh-huh. MR. QJ: Okay. Great. And what are your duties and responsibilities as an associate warden? MS. Ha: As an associate warden, I provide advice and counsel to the warden, and I have oversight of specific disciplines as EFTA00110010

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 decided by the warden. MR. QJ: Okay. MS. a: And I made decisions on policy, and security (Indiscernible *00:06:34) concerns of the institution. MR. a : Okay. And were you ever interviewed by either the DOJ/OIG or FBI regarding the Epstein matter? MS. i: No. I was not. MR. a : Okay. So, this is the first time? MR. a : Okay. Great. And are you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who was housed within the MCC in July and August 2019, until his death on August 10th, 2019? MS. Ha: Yes. MR. a : And what was your involvement with the matter? MS. QM: Well, I have limited involvement. I arrived at MCC New York July 4th, I believe, of 2019. And Epstein expired August 10th, I believe. So, I actually, I saw him, like, when he was in the visiting room. And I was part of - there has been some 10 EFTA00110011

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 meetings, exec staff meetings. 11 But as far as extensive contact, or extensive involvement, really nothing extensive being at the institution. due to my short time MR. a : Okay. So, you didn't arrive on July 4th? So, there, then, the entire though. Correct? I guess you were ¥ ime during his stay, Ms. MMM: Well, not the entire -. I don’t know when he arrived. So, I believe it wasn’t the entire time. But it was -. I think he arrived some time in June, if I'm not mistaken. I don’t recall. arrived in July. Right around the same time. So -- ms. QE: _. a: -- a day or two difference, MS. QB: Okay. was when he was there. In July? MS. a: Okay. Ye there might be, like, but yeah, it was -- it was July and August ah. MR. a : Awesome. So, if you were there in July, I'm just going to briefly touch on the July 23rd, 2019 incident. Do you recall EFTA00110012

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 an incident involving Jeffrey Epstein and inmate Tartaglione on July 23rd, 2019? MS. a: When you say an incident, what do you mean? MR. a : So, there was an incident that happened in the SHU, where Tartaglione was Epstein’s cellmate, and Epstein was removed from the SHU and placed on suicide watch, and then psychological observation. Are you familiar with that? MS. Ha: Oh, yes. I'm familiar with it. MR. a : And what is your understanding of what transpired? MS. QM: My understanding is that Tartaglione, I believe he requested, or he called somehow for assistance because I believe he indicated that Epstein was trying to commit suicide. MR. Ee : Okay. And do you know by what manner Epstein was attempting to commit suicide? MS. a: I believe he was trying to, by use of either strings, or some kind of clothing, or something as a ligature. MR. a: Okay. And is it your EFTA00110013

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understanding that Epstein attempted to harm himself? MS. a: Yes. That was my understanding. MR. a : And did you hear anything with regard to Tartaglione attempting to harm Epstein? MS. Ha: I know there was, there was speculation, not from Epstein, but there was speculation that, perhaps, you know, there could have been something involved, but Epstein, I believe, made statements that his cellmate did not try to harm him, as well as Tartaglione himself indicated that he did not try to harm him. MR. Ee : Okay. So, your belief is that they are, they were not correct statements, and then the fact it was Epstein that attempted to harm himself, and not Tartaglione? MS. ia: That is correct. MR. a : Okay. And did you have any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as Epstein’s cellmate? MS. a: No. I did not. EFTA00110014

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And do you know how Tartaglione was selected to be Epstein’s cellmate? MS. i: I don’t know. I don’t, I don't know exactly how he was selected. I do know, after the fact, it was indicated that, because he was former law enforcement, and he didn't seem like he, I guess he didn't - he didn't have anything that, it didn't appear that he would hurt Epstein, that he was suitable to be Epstein’s cellmate. But I don’t know exactly what the vetting process was for that decision. MR. a : Okay. And do you believe that Tartaglione was an appropriate choice for a cellmate? MS. a: I'm not going to speculate about that. I do know, at the time that he was a cellmate, that he did not try to harm him. Epstein never voiced any concerns about - that I am aware of - about Tartaglione being his cellmate. But as far as looking at Tartaglione’s charges, or anything to see if he had any risk factors that would indicate that he would harm Epstein, that would be speculation after the fact. So, that, I don’t EFTA00110015

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 believe I'm in a position to make that decision at this time. MR. a : Sure. Okay. And then, what is your understanding of, after this incident occurred, where was Epstein placed? MS. a: He was placed on suicide watch, is my understanding. MR. a : Okay. Great. And that was immediately following, or on July 23rd, 2019. Do you have any involvement with Epstein while he was on suicide watch? And then, psychological observation? Ms. QR: No. MR. QJ: nd where is that conducted? Or where was that conducted? MS. Ha: Where, in the suicide watch cells, you mean? MR. a : Correct. Where would have he been housed at the time? MS. Ha: Oh, yeah. The suicide watch cells are on the, they are on the second -. They are on the second floor. On the same floor as the health services department. So, around the corner, and it’s down the hall from psychology. From the psychology department EFTA00110016

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 themselves. MR. a : Great. And where was the SHU located in the MCC? MS. i: The Special Housing Unit is located on the ninth floor. MR. a : Great. And while Epstein was on suicide watch, and then psychological observation, do you know if he was allowed any visits, specifically any attorney visits, or anything like that? MS. Ha: I do believe that he was allowed to see his attorney. MR. a : And do you know if he did see his attorney while he was on psychological observation? MS. Ha: I don’t know for certain if, like, watch was - if it was the same day, but I am not for certain, 100 percent certain, but I do believe that it did occur. It did occur. I know he was -. He saw his attorneys very often. Almost daily. And I don’t believe that there was any break in visits. So, I would, I would say that it probably did happen on the same day that he was on suicide watch. MR. a: And how would that work? EFTA00110017

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 If someone is on suicide watch, and then psychological observation, how would they meet with their attorneys? MS. Ha: Typically, if someone is on suicide watch, they do not have visits, and they don’t - because they’re on watch - they would be under constant, whether it was an inmate companion, or a staff watch. So, typically, a person on suicide watch would not have visits. So, if a visit did happen during suicide watch, I would gather that that person will still be under the same observation protocol. Obviously, another inmate would not be able to watch them because of the privacy factor with the visit, but I would, I would assume that a staff member would be present. MR. ee: Okay. Now, would they be present on that second floor suicide watch area, psychological observation area? Or would that be conducted in the attorney visit rooms of the MCC? MS. a: So, again, typically, visits don’t happen when a person is on suicide watch. And because of the placement where suicide watch is, there is no visits that happen in EFTA00110018

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that area. So, all of the attorney conference visits, they happen in the attorney conference area, which is on the third floor. So, any visit, attorney related, would happen on the third floor, in the attorney conference area. MR. a : And to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. So, that means you believe that when Epstein was on psychological observation or suicide watch, he would have been, then, transported to that third floor visiting area where he would conduct his visits with his attorney? His attorneys. MS. QM: That is correct. MR. a : Okay. Now, were there any specific - and oh, sorry, before I move on, I guess I should say. So, that is not typical, though? That would have been, like, a kind of something that was a special circumstance for Epstein? MS. a: Yeah. Yeah. That is not typical. MR. a : Okay. And do you know if there is any prohibition up against that, or not? EFTA00110019

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: I know -. There are guidelines, I believe, that when a person is on suicide watch, that is where they would remain under constant supervision, and there would be no visits. MR. a : Okay. So, I am assuming that answer would be, then, yes, there are prohibitions? MS. i: When you say prohibitions, you mean that the agency has guidelines in place that says absolutely not? MR. a : Yeah. So, I guess what I'm asking is, should Epstein have been visiting with his attorneys while he was on suicide watch, or psychological observation? MS. a: If there was a determination, which I am not aware of, that deemed that it would be okay or appropriate, as far as a psychologist, or someone from the psychology department, indicating that it would be okay, then that would be, you know, that would be a consent. MR. a : Sure. MS. a: But other than that, I don’t believe anyone else would make that 19 EFTA00110020

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 determination to say that he would then be taken off of suicide watch, and then placed in the attorney conference area. MR. a : Okay. Great. So, I take it, then, is it that MCC psychology department, are they the ones who determined that Epstein should be on suicide watch, and then psychological observation? MS. i: Well, anyone can actually place someone on suicide watch, if that person voices - and when I say “anyone,” for instance, if I call a psychologist is not there after hours, someone voices an intent to harm themselves, the lieutenant can make that decision to place the person on suicide watch. But psychology typically is the one that would determine whether someone is taken off of suicide watch because they would have to do a suicide risk assessment, and any other clinical assessment. So, placing someone on suicide watch - again - depending on the time, it can be psychology, or it can be a correctional services staff member. And then, the removal would be someone from psychology, to say that this person is not deemed suicide, or, you EFTA00110021

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know, they are safe to be in general population. MR. a : Okay. And then, but it would also - and correct me if I'm wrong - but it did sound like you said that it would have been psychology’s decision to allow Epstein to visit with his attorneys while he was on suicide watch or psychological observation? MS. i: No. I don't know if that was what actually occurred. But to remove someone from suicide watch, that would be a psychology decision. MR. a : So, when you say “remove someone,” do you mean, like, just for those hours that he was visiting, or are you talking about when he was removed and placed back in the SHU? MS. a: Typically, when you remove someone, it’s not for an hour or two. It’s typically, you are saying that that person poses no more risk to themselves, so they are off. Basically, they are going back to general population. So, I am not aware of any situation where you remove a person for an hour or two, or for a short timeframe, and then EFTA00110022

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 place them back. MR. a : Sure. So, that is kind of I guess what I'm asking is, who makes the determinations? Because you said that your understanding was that he did conduct his attorney visits during that time period that he was on suicide watch. MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : Or psychological observation. So, who made the, you know, who had the authority to allow him to conduct those attorney visits? MS. Ha: Yes. I don't know. Again, I don't know who made the ultimate decision for that to happen. But I know the process for removal of suicide watch ,and what that process entails. And that is why I'm saying, to remove someone off of suicide watch, it would have to be someone in psychology, to say that that is appropriate. But in this instance, I don't know, I don't know if that was communicated. If that actually occurred. So, I hope, hopefully that answers the question. wR. QM: sure. Yeah. MS. MMM: But (Indiscernible *00:19:29). EFTA00110023

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : We can move on to the SHU, then, when he got removed. So, do you know if there were any specific instructions, by either you, the warden, or other MCC executive staff, with regard to Epstein being placed back in the SHU from psychological observation? MS. QJ: When he was - you are saying when he was removed? MR. a : So, when a determination was made that he - for Epstein to be removed, which was on or about July 30th, 2019. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. QJ: Were there any specific instructions provided by you, the warden, or other MCC executive staff, with regard to Epstein being placed back in the SHU? Ms. QM: well, I didn't, I didn't have any specific direction, or instructions to a particular staff member. But I do, I do know that there was a determination made, and who exactly made that determination, typically, when you - high-profile individuals, and you are saying to place them in Special Housing for their care, it is typically the CEO, the EFTA00110024

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 warden, in consultation with correctional services, because it falls under custody care and control. And so, that decision was made to place him in Special Housing. MR. a : Okay. Do you know, did you, MCC executive staff, or anyone, including the warden, receive any calls, or was any contacted by lawyers, or a judge, asking for Epstein to be removed from suicide watch or psychological observation? MS. Ha: That, I am not aware of any communication about that. MR. a : Okay. And just to circle back. Were you, or executive staff, involved with any decisions to have Epstein removed from suicide watch or psychological observation? MS. Ha: Say that one more time. Say that one more time. MR. Ee : So, that actually having him removed. So, back on July, you know, 30th, when he was removed. Would yourself or executive staff, would you have been a part of the process of actually taking him off of suicide watch or psychological observation? MS. FR: No. EFTA00110025

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : So, that is solely a psychology decision? MS. a: Yeah. Because they are the subject matter experts, and again, and whether someone is off of suicide, or displaying suicide risk factors, typically, it is a psychology thing, to remove the individual. MR. a : Okay. And that that’s not in consultation with MCC executive staff? MS. Ha: No. To remove someone from suicide watch? No. MR. a : Okay. Now, it is our understanding that, after Epstein was placed back in the SHU, or the Special Housing Unit, psychology recommended that Epstein be housed with a cellmate. Do you know if that is accurate? MS. a: That, I do know that is accurate. MR. QJ: | You do know that it is accurate? MS. a: Yes. That, I do believe that that was - Mm-hmm - that is accurate. That it was indicated that he should have a cellmate. MR. a: Okay. And do you know EFTA00110026

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 how that information was disseminated within MCC? MS. a: And again, there was several, you know, there was meetings, and I don't know what particular meeting it occurred, but I do recall, during one of the meetings, that it was indicated. I don’t know if it was during close out, or open up, that it was important that he did have a cellmate. MR. a : Okay. So, it was an actual requirement that Epstein have a cellmate while he was assigned to the SHU? MS. Ha: Yes. MR. QJ: Okay. And do you know who made -? Do you know who he was celled with? Do you know what the name of his cellmate was when he came back off of suicide watch, on July 30th, 2019? MS. Ha: Oh, who was his cellmate? I don’t know if it was -. I don't know what the (Indiscernible *00:23:19). But I do know, at one point, he had a cellmate named - the last name was a. And the first name was a. B-r-R-aA-I-N. But I don’t recall if that was his consistent cellmate. But I do recall, EFTA00110027

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 besides Tartaglione, || was another 2 cellmate. MR. a : And thank you. I have 4 actually been saying a. So, it’s a: MS. aa: That’s what I think you ies) w Oo pronounce it as. It could be my New York 7 accent, but I'm saying a. MR. a : Okay. Hey. That’s - I guess -. Yeah. I'm looking at it, and it’s -. co wo 10 I'm going to start saying | now. 11 MS a: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. a : Do you know who made the 3 decision that | would be Epstein’s 4 cellmate? 15 MS. aa: That, I am not aware of. I 16 don’t know if it was an actual, like, meeting, 7 as far as a placement decision. So, I don't 8 know if it was actually a vetting process, to 9 determine who should be the cellmate. I know 20 itw as indicated that he should have a 21 cellmate. But what that process was, to get to 22 a. I am not aware of it. 23 MR. a : Okay. So, that means 24 that you were not involved with that decision? 25 Ms. EER: No. 3) EFTA00110028

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. And did you work at the MCC on August 9th - which was a Friday - or August 10th - which was a Saturday - that he was found in 2019? MS. Ha: Well, I worked on Friday. My work hours, because of my position, I work Monday through Friday, 7:30 to 4:00. But I did report to the institution the morning of, when I received the call indicating that I needed to report to the institution on that day that Epstein was found. MR. a : Okay. So, on Friday, August 9th, you worked from 7:30 a.m. to 4:00 MS. i: Correct. MR. a : And then, on August 10th - so, you did depart at 4:00 p.m. - and then you returned after Epstein was found on August 10th? MS. Ha: And then, I returned back to the institution -. Okay. I'm trying to remember what -. I received a call around maybe 8:00 or something. I received a call, and then, I arrived at the institution maybe around 9:00 or so. EFTA00110029

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. 9:00 a.m.? MS. QJ: 3 Mn-hon. MR. a : Okay. So, since Epstein was required to have a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to make sure that all SHU staff were aware of his cellmate requirement? MS. QM: oh. Okay. And because - I'm just going to say this - because it’s Special Housing, Special Housing is governed under correctional services. It would be the captain is typically in charge of correctional services. And there is a SHU lieutenant that is assigned to the Special Housing on a daily basis. That that is that person’s daily assignment. And they are responsible for ensuring that everything is in compliance in Special Housing. And so, there should be some communication, if then, like I said, psychology made a decision that he had to have a cellmate. Everyone was aware of it, but that, like, verbal communication, or insurance, it should have happen in the correctional services. The captain. The lieutenant. And then, that information communicated down to the staff that EFTA00110030

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Oo wo 1 actually work in the Special Housing Unit. 2 MR. a : Okay. And do you know, in August 9th and 10th, who the WwW wu rt ct a @ ct bh 3 @ ~ 4 captain at the MCC was? 6 MR. a : Okay. And do you know 7 who the SHU lieutenant at the time was? w 8 MS. a: That, I am not aware of. That, 9 I am not aware of. 10 MR. a : Does Lieutenant | | 1 sound familiar to you? a: I know Lieutenant ia. But I don’t know if that was his post at that ive) ia: I am not sure. post for the quarter. So, ultimately, the F oO s , that was his co 9 information should have come from Captain 20 | and SHU Lieutenant ia. Tr 21 have provided to the SHU staff that Epstein was 22 required to h a cellmate at all times? 23 MS. || : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. a : Okay. And that is a yes? That is a EFTA00110031

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. Great. And how should have they communicated that? Should have that been verbally, in writing? How should have they made sure everyone knew? MS. Ha: Now, to ensure that, you could have a record of it if you put it in an email. That’s blatant, and that can never be contradicted. You could also have verbal notification, in addition to written notification. So, that it could be both. Honestly. It could be both. But if you have it in - you have something that, a bulletin or some kind of an email that went out, that’s definitely, you know, something that - that’s a record. That’s a permanent record. MR. Ee : So, it sounds -- MS. QM: 9 (Indiscernible *00:28:24) MR. a : -- you’re saying, it really should have been both verbal and in writing, but writing would basically make sure that you are, it’s documented/ MS. a: Correct. MR. a : Is that a correct understanding? MS. a: That is a correct EFTA00110032

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 understanding. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: And in addition to that, I do know that the SHU staff did know that he should have had a cellmate. MR. a : You do know that they knew that? MS. Ha: I do know that the SHU staff knew that. Mm-hmm. MR. a : And how do you know that? MS. Ha: Because the staff are required to make weekly rounds, and I don’t -. Now, because of, after the - excuse me - after the fact, you know, he was kind of, like, you are playing a - I'm just trying to recall the facts - but I do recall instances of making rounds in the Special Housing, where staff, it was said, make sure that he had a cellmate, and when we make rounds, that that was - I can - I verbally heard folks say it myself. MR. a : And do you remember who was engaged in those conversations, or who you know specifically that knew? MS. a: That, I can't recall, because in Special Housing, there is, like, four -. EFTA00110033

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 There is -. You have the SHU number one, SHU number two, the three, and the four. So, you at least have four staff, and you have staff that are SHU (Indiscernible *00:29:46). So, there is several staff assigned to the Special Housing Unit. So, and at that -. So, I can' say with certainty who was engaging ina conversation. And then, like I said, and then you have the SHU lieutenant. So, it was several folks that were assigned to the Special Housing. And again, I don't know specifically who said what, but I do know that it was known because I verbally, I heard it, it was audible. I heard it. MR. a : While you were in the SHU? MS. Ha: While I was in the SHU. MR. a : And do you know around what time of day that would have been? MR. QJ: No? MS. a: Hmm-mm. MR. a : And did you hear it more than one time? MS. a: Yes. Mm-hmm. EFTA00110034

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : So, it was something that you had heard on multiple occasions? MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Okay. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And is that something that, because you were engaged in a conversation, or you just overheard because saying it? MS. Ha: I wasn’t engaging in the conversation about Epstein per se, but just in a conversation about what was going on in SHU, while making rounds. MR. QJ: Okay. MS. i: So, you discuss -. So, typically, when you make SHU rounds, you can do both. You can have, like, a SHU roster that kind of lists all of the inmates that are housed in the SHU. You can, like, look at the board to see who has cellmates. So, sometimes, the conversation is prompted from multiple things, or sometimes inmates stop you at the door, and ask questions, and then you talk about who it is that asked you questions. So, I'm just saying, because of all those EFTA00110035

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 instances, I don't know why it was said about that particular thing, but that was, that was just one of some comments during that day. MR. a : But it was a comment Ms. QE: 9 yeah. MR. a : -- to Epstein’s cellmate. Correct? MS. i: Yes. Exactly. MR. a : Okay. And do you know if there were any plan -. Or sorry. Before I move on, I guess I should specifically ask you. So, you mentioned there was SHU one, two, three, four, but Epstein was found when, you know, during the overnight, I guess the morning watch, which is, you know, I think midnight to MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : He was found at approximately 6:33 a.m. on August 10th, and then, at that time, there were only two SHU staff in there. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Specifically, a Tova Noel and a Michael Thomas. Do you know those two EFTA00110036

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 staff members? MS. Ha: I know of them. MR. a : Do you know if either of those two specific staff members were aware of Epstein’s cellmate requirement? MS. a: No. I don’t -. That, I don’t know because they are assigned to work other departments, and they were working overtime. But what I do know - because I also, when I first started working in the Bureau, I was a correctional officer - I do know that you should engage in conversation with whomever it is that you are relieving, to find out, is there any special precautions, or you pass on your equipment, you talk about what your base count is. So, there, there should be some communication between you and the staff member that you are relieving. MR. Ee : Now, do you believe, if the person is quarterly assignment was the SHU, they would have known, and should have known? MS. a: Yeah. Yes. MR. a : Okay. So, fi you know that Tova Nova was actually assigned to the SHU for that quarterly post, does that change 36 EFTA00110037

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 anything for you? 2 MS. a: Hmm. Well, you said Tova Noel. u Ww it) n n he an officer, or she was -- 4 MR. a : She was an officer. w th i} i} wu wo ci) o fii) | 6 MR. a : But she was assigned -- fos) i | | wu s her quarterly -- ts) 5 =a 3 a was in the SH WwW Fs) ' | was on overtime, 4 working in the SHU. He was a materials 5 handler. 7 MR. ae : But Tova Noel was actually -- 20 R. i: -- 22 have known. And then, she - and again, I oO co 23 didn't delve into that - she was on overtime, 24 but was she responding to what shift? Like, @ 5 ct ening watch? Was that her permane EFTA00110038

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] wo 10 11 ive) lo o assignment? MR. a : I would have to check if that was her -- MR. a : -- she may have been, you know, you might, you may be right. MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : She may have been working overtime in the SHU, but she was, in fact, assigned to the SHU -- MR. a : -- for that quarter. MS. Ha: Then she should have known. MR. ae : And do you believe -- MS. i: She should have. MR. Ee : -- that there is any excuse for her to say that she didn't know? MS. a: I can't see how, if that i is] your post for the quarter, that you would not know, because you have to make decisions based on, like, recreation. You have to do rounds. You have to actually physically walk down the range. There are name tags on the door. There is the hot list. There is information that psychology, at times, even sends out to SHU EFTA00110039

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 staff, indicating these inmates are on the hot list, or these are some important factors about specific inmates. So, there is, there is information, and there is things that you are required to do, as part of your assignment in SHU, that you would have to know who can even go in recreation, in the recreation cage, with whom. It’s because of separation. So, there is information that you have to be able to, you have to know, in order for you to make safe decisions during your eight hours of having oversight over the inmates. MR. a : So - great - so, you touched on the hot list. Can you just very briefly explain what the hot list is? MS. QM: well, the hot list is, it’s, like a list that kind of, that psychology puts together, and it has information about, at times, who is on suicide alert, or of any kind of risk factors, or something that requires special care for just specific inmates. So, it is, your base count, or the SHU can help maybe have the capacity to hold maybe 80 inmates, right? And if - not everyone is on the hot 39 EFTA00110040

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 list. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: So, again, the hot list is just specifically designed to highlight specific inmates, and what is needed, or something special about that specific inmate. MR. es : So, if an inmate comes off of suicide watch, or psychological observation, and is placed in the SHU, would he be - he or she, yeah - would he be listed on the hot list? MS. i: I don't know if that would be on the hot list, but I know that that should be - that is something that would probably be on the SHU roster, or the SHU report. MR. a : Okay. MS. Ha: The SHU report, it lists all of the inmates. It has pictures of all of the inmates. And it also sections for health services, for psychology, for correctional services, and for unit teams. And in those comment sections, they typically will say this inmate may need a cellmate. This inmate is on the hot list. This inmate should be kept away from inmate X, Y, and I. It provides specific EFTA00110041

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 information. So, even if it was not on the hot list, it probably would also be on the SHU report, which is BOPWARE. That’s an electronic report that you can pull from a program, a BOP program. MR. a : Okay. Now, do you know, though, if Epstein specifically was on the hot list in August of 2019? MS. i: You know what? I don’t know that. MR. a : Okay. So, if he was, though, would it have listed that he was required to have a cellmate? MS. QM: I'm trying to think if that information would be on the hot list. I'm not sure if that information would be on the hot list. MR. a : But it would be on this other report that you were just speaking of, that’s in BOPWARE? MS. ia: I was - mm-hmm - that should, that is something that would be important, that psychology would definitely put on there. MR. a : And would be - Tova Noel would have, she had been required to review EFTA00110042

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that list, and see that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? MS. a: Well, you are not required to review the list, but in order to know what’s going on with the inmate, I mean, you have to have a SHU roster. You would have to know what’s going on with the inmates. MR. QM: so -- Ms. FM: so -. MR. a : -- so, she should have reviewed the list, is what you are saying? MS. i: If you want to know what’s going on with the inmates, I would say that you would review your SHU report. MR. a : Is there any other ways that Tova Noel, being that it was her quarterly post, would have and should have known that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? MS. Ha: I do also know that we have TruScope (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:23). So, there is also an electronic program called TruScope, and psychology lists things, and that psych, it’s called a psychology advisory list. And so, again, there is multiple electronic formats. And paper formats and things that EFTA00110043

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 w ~] ive) information is listed. MR. QJ: Okay. MR. a : And do you know, were there any plans made on how to address the situation if JJ was removed as Epstein’s cellmate? MS. Ha: I do - hmm - I don’t recall there being a meeting to say specifically if | | was removed, but -. So, I can't say that there was a meeting that I am aware of, to talk about. MR. a : So, being that Epstein was -- MS. i: Actually, (Indiscernible *00:39:13). MR. ae : -- so, being that Epstein was required to have a cellmate, and being that MCC is, you know, a jail versus a prison, where prisoners are constantly moved in and out. MR. GJ: 39 was place to address that situation, if Epstein is ct here anything in required to have a cellmate, his cellmate is then removed. What should have happened? EFTA00110044

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: I don’t recall of a conversation specific to that. But I do know, as part of, not just Epstein, but any inmate, if they are required to have cellmates, if you are doing your rounds, and the cellmate is not in there, it could be because that cellmate is inside of the recreation cage, but if it isa prolonged thing -- MR. SR: r-on. MS. Ha: -- that is something that should be brought to the attention of, obviously, your first line supervisor first, and then that supervisor would then call, depending on if it is after hours, they can call the on-call psychologist, or if it during duty hours, you call - then the lieutenant would then contact someone in psychology. MR. a : Okay. So, the supervisor MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- you’re saying is the SHU lieutenant. So, it’s staff should have notified the SHU lieutenant? MS. a: Yes. MR. a: Now, what -- EFTA00110045

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- what about if the SHU lieutenant is off? So, on the 9th, Lieutenant | | is off that day. There is no SHU lieutenant. What should have happened with SHU staff? Who should have they contacted? MS. Ha: There is always a lieutenant. So, even if i. who is the SHU lieutenant, is not physically there, there is always a lieutenant in the building, 24 hours. MR. a : Sure. MS. i: That person is -. So, there is the management official, after hours. And so, when there is any kind of emergency, or an inmate situation that rises to the level of contact, there is a management official there. And they have received calls. And they then call the captain, and then, the captain can determine whether or not he wants some, you know, to increase the level and call the AW, but there is always a lieutenant in the institution. MR. a : Okay. And so, they should have contacted one of the lieutenants, and you are referring to the two lieutenants EFTA00110046

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 on 1 that are usually there during the day. Can you 2 refresh my memory of what the two are called? 3 MS aa: One is the operations, and one 4 is the activities lieutenant. 5 MR. a : Right. So, is there one 6 or the other that the SHU staff, during the ~] day, should have called? 8 MS. a: Well, during the day, now, 9 okay, Monday through Friday, during the day, 10 there is the SHU lieutenant. 11 MR. Ee : No. I'm saying on the N io rt s | | ive) MS. aa: After -. 4 MR. ae : -- with the fact that the 15 SHU lieutenant is not there. 16 MS. ia: That you can call, you can either call the activities or operations. 8 MR. a : So, it is either or. 21 MR. ae : -- one or the other? 22 MS. a: -- hey, you can call -. Hmm- 23 mm. You can call either or. 24 MR. a : Okay. Great. And do you 25 know what happened to inmate || on August EFTA00110047

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 9th, 2019? MS. Ha: I know, I know because of after the fact, that he was, I believe he was bonded, or somehow, he was released from court. He was at court, and he never came back because of either a bond, receiving a bond or a bail. MR. a : Okay. So, your understanding is that he actually went to court, and then was released? MS. Ha: Yes. That is my understanding. MR. a : And where did you receive that information? MS. Ha: That is after the fact. After, you know, trying to gather what happened, and to his cellmate. And so, if the information was not, I was not aware of the information on the day. It’s because of this incident that I am aware of the information. MR. Ee : Okay. So, and that is your belief to this day? MS. ia: Yes. That is my belief to this day. MR. a : Okay. And what does WAB mean? MS. a: Oh, that means With All EFTA00110048

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 Belongings. MR. a : So, if a person is transported down to Receiving and Discharge, with the status WAB next to their name -- MS. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : -- what does that mean is happening? MS. Ha: That means that the inmate is leaving, and he’s not coming back. MR. a : So, it does mean that they are actually - that that is known as that inmate is not coming back to the MCC? MS. Ha: Correct. MR. ae : And what is -- MR. Ee : -- what is the document that would say WAB on it? MS. a: Normally, there is a court roster that lets the unit officer know that the inmate is leaving. So, you would know who to send down to R&D. And typically, it has an approximate time. And/or, sometimes R&D may then call up to the specific location, or the housing unit, to say, send inmate so and so down with all belongings. EFTA00110049

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. So, but there is a, it sounds like a court list, ora production, an inmate production list that is created by R&D? MS. Ha: That is correct. MR. a : And that is what would say -? That is how -? What staff members would utilize in order to produce the inmates to R&D? MS. i: That is - yeah - that is my understanding. MR. a : And what happens with that document? Like, so, the staff members utilize it, then where does the document go? Is it saved somewhere, like BOPWARE, or TruScope, or is it something that they print out, and then they destroy, or do they keep it? MS. a: Well, I know that R&D definitely should have a cop of the court roster. They should. Now, as far as what the housing unit would do with it, I would believe that they probably would shred it because it serves no purpose to that specific housing unit. But R&D would maintain copies of the court roster. EFTA00110050

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Now, if R&D is saying that they actually don’t keep a copy, it’s like a template that they revise every day, based upon what inmates need to be produced. So, they actually don’t have any records from past, you know, production lists. Does that sound accurate to you? MS. QR: 98mm. From my understanding, I would think that a copy would be maintained. And that there would also possibly be a logbook. Because I - again - at the time, I'm, you know, an associate warden, but, and I never specifically worked in Receiving and Discharge. But from my understanding of being in Receiving and Discharge, and from our early, my early years of being a correctional officer, I am aware of, like, if a receipt is being maintained, because someone keys in inmates in, and keys inmates out in Sentry. And there, at times, control even annotates things in their daily, their daily log. MR. a : Yeah. MS. Ha: So, of, like, of movement. Depending on the control room officer, that officer may even take the time to list the EFTA00110051

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 names, to actually write out names and register numbers. Or they just might write out the numerical value of how many inmates departed for court, versus how many departed, like, with all belongings. Because that means that the inmate is not returning, and he would definitely have to be taken off your base count, in order to get an accurate count. MR. a : Okay. So, and I know we’re not in person, so I'm going to have to just explain to you what I'm looking at. I have two emails that were sent to the MCC. One was to - both from the U.S. Marshal Service - one was to just Receiving and Discharge personnel, and another one was sent, it looks like to, like to a large amount of custody personnel, including lieutenants, it looks like Tijuana i. who I believe was the SIS lieutenant. It looks like JIN) EERE i. who was an AW, is on there. As well as a number of other people. Quite a large number of people. I do not see your name on here. But it does say the subject, “Prisoner Production 8/9/2019,” the date is Thursday, August 8th, 2019, at 3:36 p.m. EFTA00110052

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. 2 MR. a : Now, within the wo S) Ww w rt rt rv] ao a =] w o ct n ~ b ct ts] a ie) = rr) te hat that would stand for? You said NYM uw th oo 8 MR. a : Yeah. And then, when you 9 open it up, it just says - it’s the U.S. 10 Marshals report - and it says, “Prisoners 11 Schedule Report.” It says -- 2 3 -- MCC New York 4 Mm-hmm. 5 Do you know if that would 16 be who was being produced to the U.S. Marshals 8 MS. aa: Yeah. That is what it is. 9 It’s a court list Basically, it’ a court n 24 this up, on the first page there, it starts I open 25 with two inmates. The second inmate down, it EFTA00110053

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wo ios) a 7 5 a 3 =] 4 MR. a : It shows a date of birth. 5 A time A time The time says 8:53, and then, 6 7 8 says, “Transfer wit! “ And then -- 9 Ms. QE: Mm-hmn. " 11 York. And then, it does i] typed court. Now, under that, N ive) mMcc 202. 20T. GEO.” Do you know what that 4 would stand for? 5 Ms. QM: No. I'm not. Hmm-mm 7 wouldn’t understand that that -- B Ms. J: on. 21 means that -. GEO is a priv 22 uR. QM: correct. 23 MS. a: So, I would think that GEO, 24 that’s, like - yeah - that’s a mnemonic for a 25 private prison. EFTA00110054

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. And then, when it says, “Destination description,” it says, “WAB/MED summary.” Does that tell you anything? MS. QB: Yeah. Well, WAB. WAB means With All Belongings. Now, /MED summary means medical summary. So, when I'm first hearing you say WAB, that lets me know that the person is leaving. That means with all belongings. So, typically, when someone is scheduled for transfer, you have the time to pack them out, and so, they would come down, you know, prior to the date. But with WAB, that means that the person is leaving that day, and then they should come down with all of their belongings. Everything that they have because for whatever reason, they’re not coming back, they’re going somewhere else. MR. QJ: Right. So -- MS. Ha: And then -. MR. a : -- so, it looks like -- MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- these first two people, the first two people both say, “Transfer within.” Both of them say MCC to EFTA00110055

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 uw wm GEO. And then -- MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- they both say WAB, with the destination in the description. Now, the other inmates that are listed on here, they have various things -- MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- from the reason being status hearing, to sentencing, to a change of plea, to all things that look like they are court related, but would you believe that these first two, since it would say, “Transfer Within MCC to GEO,” and WAB, that means that they are actually being transferred and not going to court? MS. Ha: Yeah. I would - if I had an opportunity to see that - I would understand that that means that, exactly what you said, that they are transferring. MR. a : Okay. MS. ia: Somewhere other than -. MR. a : So, being that the MCC was sent, actually, the one that was sent to Receiving and Discharge was much earlier in the day. But the one that was sent to the custody EFTA00110056

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 was on August 8th, 2019 at 3:36 p.m. What should have been known from that information? MS. a: That those inmates listed for departing and were not coming back. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: Yeah. MR. a : So then, it was known by the MCC, at least, or at least should have been known by the MCC, that on August 8th, 2019, that i. who happens to be Epstein’s cellmate, was actually transferring from the MCC to another institution. And specifically, to GEO. MS. MM: That part is accurate. The only thing that is not included in that is, if it was sent to R&D, and R&D may not have known that | was Epstein’s cellmate. So, it may not have alerted them that || was (Indiscernible *00:52:03) for them to then have to discuss, to say, oh, he’s not, you know, it wouldn't have rang alarms for whomever that R&D staff member was. MR. a : Right. And that’s why I focused on the email to custody, because all of custody, including all the lieutenants -- EFTA00110057

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Ms. QBN: 9 yeah. w x) WwW by a] i] ion QO a] uel ct a] k 5 ~ w — U K oO wu a 48 fe wu ct i} i} 6 MR. a : -- that email. 7 MS. a: -- okay. Then that is - yeah - 8 that is different. That is different. 9 MR. a : So, the fact that custody 10 received it, is there someone that should have 11 been alerted to the fact, or reviewed that 2 document, to know, huh, we got these two 3 inmates, one of them is Epstein’s cellmate. 4 You know, we now know that P| is leaving 15 from the institution. Is there someone that 16 should have been responsible for catching that? 7 a: The one thing I will say is 8 that, unless you are actually looking at the 9 court production list, to vet it, a person may 20 have just seen that as another court production 21 list. If it wasn’t actually read, to see, you 22 know, for - to determine, okay, this inmate is 23 leaving, and who is he associated with? 24 MR. a : Absolutely. 25 MS. ER: so -- EFTA00110058

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : And that’s kind of - and I apologize if I -- MS. a: -- no. MR. a : -- I apologize if I wasn’t clear. What I'm saying is -- MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- should someone have reviewed it? Is there someone that should have - being that it was sent to all these people in custody - is there someone that really should have looked at it -- MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- as opposed to could have looked at it? MS. i: Yeah. No. That’s not necessarily the responsibility of custody to view -. There is -. I will say this. There is no procedures in place, or their responsibility that exists, that would say that custody had to review a court production list. Typically, they don’t -. They may have received a list as a courtesy. But okay. It’s a courtesy. It wasn’t necessarily something that they may or may not have to have some, you know, to do something with the list. It’s not EFTA00110059

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. MS. a: -- it’s just a courtesy. It’s nothing more than that. MR. a : Okay. Now, I have an email here, it’s from you to Lamine N'Diaye. Do you know who that is? MS. Ha: Lamine N'Diaye. Yes. He was the former warden. MR. a : Okay. Great. And the subject, it says, “Epstein, Jeffrey Edward,” and then it gives his reg number. It was sent Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 4:35 p.m., and in the body of the message, it says, “So far, this is the documentation I have in my possession.” And it’s signed your name, | i. Associate Warden, MCC New York.” So, do you recall if you were tasked with obtaining documentation on Warden N'Diaye’s behalf? MS. ia: He didn't specifically task me with anything. I just know that, when something happens, that part of your responsibility as an AW is to try to gather documents. Now, I didn't have a specific EFTA00110060

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 responsibility of securing the scenes. If that’s correctional services, and that is what they do. But I, certain things, I just inherently, or instinctively, knew that I should try to assist with. But I wasn’t given, you know, the instruction that Warden N'Diaye did, relayed to me was to report to the institution because of, you know, the death. And from that, I already knew, or in my head, on the way there was planning of what I wanted - one of the things that I needed to do to assist with the matter. MR. a : Okay. So, you independently took this task on, to collect all these documents? Ms. QR: I did. MR. ae : Okay. MS. a: I must admit I did. MR. QJ: Okay. Great. So, I have the document opened that you provided to him. It’s an attachment to your email saying what it was that you collected. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : It starts with, “Documentation re: Epstein, Jeffrey -- EFTA00110061

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- Jeffrey Edward, Deceased.” And then, it talks about Sentry reports. Like, the PPE-44, or PPE-37, and all the way down to a PR-15. And then, it talks about BOPWARE, label, administrative detention order. And then, a few down, which is directly in the middle of the first page, or slightly below the middle, it shows, “Court documentation regarding WAB.” And this is under -- MS. a: Okay. MS. Ha: -- under the heading, Reg number 85993-054.” And then, it says, “Cellmate.” It says, “Court documentation regarding WAB, 8/9/19.” Do you know what court documentation is you were referring to? MS. ia: Well, it had to be the court list, then. Is it the same thing that -? Are you able to open the attachment? MR. a : That is the attachment. So, it doesn't -. You didn't include in that EFTA00110062

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 email the electronic versions of this. You 2 said, this is what I have collected. Ww a oO a 4 MR. a : And within it, it says -- w 7) e) — w kK 6 MR. a : -- “Court documentation 7 ”" and specific to | 8 wondering, what -- 9 10 MR. a : -- what document were you 2 What document? It had to -. 3 Hmm. I don’t know. Unless I'm able to 4 actually look at my email. But if you are 5 saying WAB, that means I had to have seen 16 something -- 7 MR. ae : If you are actually -- that -. 9 MR. Ee : -- if you are in front of ie] ep) | | 20 your email, you can find this. Just go to your 21 sent emails. 22 MS. Yeah. I have to go - hold on. 23 That’s what I'm doing - but I have to go in my 24 archives. EFTA00110063

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) co wo ioe) co OFFICIAL will time USE w he U re) hg Oo ny] J at what it would be, it 1t second, me one to go in the EFTA00110064

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

ies) w ~] oo wo i=) ive) w MR. Ee : And did you happen to get MS. aa: No. Hmm-mm MR. QJ: okay. MS. aa: But the way that this -. Okay. Hold on. Just wait. I got this. Okay. You said -. Hmm. Not -. I'm doing an advanced search. And because it’s the archive little slow. It’s not -. It’s not on my present Google Drive MR. Ee : Yeah. No. I understand. Same thing when I look for my own emails. If it’s, like, more than six months to a year old Ms. QR: No. MR. Ee : =- it takes a while. MS. a: Okay. Now - okay - I'm in old stuff now. Okay. You said 8/9, 8/10/19. Oh. MS. MM: Okay. I'm in nine. That’s why I had to do with it. Okay. Okay. Okay. I see. I see the Word attachment that is there. a) Okay. You did find the EFTA00110065

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE is) w MS. a: I - yes - I was able to find the email. Great. Mm-hmm. So then, yeah. So, you see where the Word attachment. Do you see, again, middle of the page, where it says, “Documentation, Re: a. ma.’ Ms. MB: 9 Yeah. MR. a : And that - yeah - that first document is the one I was wondering about. This court documentation regarding WAB, MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. ve. a: refresh, see if you can remember what document And I'm just trying to you would have -- MS. JM: 9 -- what I could do is, -- been talking about. hold on, because I'm trying to -. I'm trying to over document that I have. Okay. So, what -. Let Ph me fir 7] t forward this to my present email, so I won't lose it. And then, I'm going to go, because I had a folder of documents that I did EFTA00110066

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 maintain because of that, I kept receiving, like, inquiries after as to what documents I had. And so, let me see what I -. See if I have anything that shows that. Okay. Hold on. I'm going to have go out -. Okay. So, I have -. Okay. One thing I had, that I have a title for | was just, like, was his (Indiscernible *01:04:43) and entry information. Special Housing review. Okay. That’s not showing me the court date. R&D. Okay. Hold on one second. Let me see which drop file. No. The drop file. (Indiscernible *01:05:16). Let me see. Man, I don’t -. That, as an attachment. I don’t have that as an attachment. I do -. I am able to look at other things. But a court list. I don’t have that as a court list. I don’t have the court list. MR. QJ: Now, you’re talking about electronically, or are you referring to -- mS. QJ: 9 Mm-ho. MR. a : -- okay. MS. Ha: Yeah. Because I saw - there were things that I saved. That’s how I was able to send them, you know, to other EFTA00110067

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 individuals. Meaning, in the agency. When there was a request. But that, I don’t see, for whatever reason. I don’t see that file. I mean, I don’t see that. MR. a : Now, it sounds like this specifically was, they were documents that you obtained physically. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Do you know, do you still have any of those documents? When you say you kept the file -- MR. a : -- are they hard copy -- MR. a : -- files? MS. Ha: No. It’s not a hard copy file. Any hard copy files, they were turned over. Items that I have were turned over. And then, there was some things that were still in my possession. I have the emails where it shows who it is that I turned them over. It was myself and Lieutenant El. that was actually working together. She was assigned to SIS. Working together to gather the documents. And then, there was some documents that were turned EFTA00110068

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) over to the FBI. And that could, in fact, have been one of the documents that was turned over to the FBI. There should be a list of what was turned over to them. MR. a : Okay. And do you know if it was the FBI versus the OIG? Ms. QE: No. MR. a : You don’t know who it was? MS. Ha: I don't know because I - like I said - any documents that Lieutenant r would have turned over, it should have been -. There should be something, some kind of document indicating what was turned over to them. MR. Ee : And do you know -. So, there should be some kind of a receipt with the documents -- MS. Ha: There should be. MR. QJ: -- that were provided? MS. ia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. MR. ae : And that would be something that Lieutenant | would have? MS. a: If she, in fact, turned those documents over, she worked in SIS. EFTA00110069

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Okay. So, it wouldn’t -. You didn't turn it over to the FBI. She -- MS. a: No. Yeah. I didn't have any contact with the FBI agents directly. At all. MR. a : Okay. And then, as far as - what is your understanding of what it means, though, when it says, “Court documentation regarding WAB.” Do you know what court -- MS. Ha: That was -- MR. a : -- documentation you would be referring to? MS. Ha: -- that was (Indiscernible *01:08:04). I don’t know specifically, but obviously, it would have to have been something that said for, in order for me to write WAB, without being able to look at it right now, it obviously had to be something that said WAB on it, and listed that inmate’s name. Other than that, I would not have wrote that. MR. a : And do you think that that would have been that Receiving and Discharge document that the SHU staff would have utilized when they transported | to R&D? EFTA00110070

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: It wouldn't have been his - that document from SHU. Because I didn't even, I didn't go to SHU that day. So -- MR. a : Sorry. But -- MS. QM: -- (indiscernible *01:08:42). MR. a : -- the court production list that, I'm just saying that, because my understanding is, R&D, you know, prints out all the same court production lists, and they provide it to the different housing units, and to the ops lieutenant, and to, you know, the different various people that need to be in the know with who is being produced. So, that is all -- MS. i: Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : -- all I'm saying, is, like -- Ms. QJ: 9 uh-huh. MR. Ee : -- would it be the -- MS. Ha: A copy of it. You’re saying a copy. It could have -. It had to be a copy of something. But I don't know if it was, if it was the court production list, or some kind of Sentry roster. That, because you could print a Sentry roster also, that shows, like you said, EFTA00110071

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 everybody, you know, movement. So, it had to be a copy of something listing information as to who was going out of the institution on that particular day. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: That is the only thing I could have - that I could surmise why I would have wrote WAB. MR. a : Okay. Can I ask you just to see if, you know, after the interview, if you can, if you can track that down by any means? Or if you may -. I don't know if you can coordinate with Lieutenant - can ask Lieutenant J, as well - but if you could just see if you, in fact, did make a copy, or you know what you did with this document, or figure out what that document was. And I don't know how you would do that. So, I don’t, you know -- MS. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : -- you might not be able to, but just, if you could just check. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. That means all of them, the documents that I listed, those things were turned over. But okay. I will even look EFTA00110072

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at all of my emails I saved. Well, what I - whom I turned things over to, or what I’ve turned, what I turned over. MR. a : That would be great. Specifically, we would be very interested in that court documentation regarding, you know, a. MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : And is it surprising to you now, though, since again, like, you thought that he was at court, and then released on, you know, released from there, but now that you see that you actually wrote, “Court documentation regarding WAB,” is that surprising? MS. i: Well, I won't say it’s -. I won't use the word “surprising.” But it would jog my memory to say, okay, you - like I Said - if he left on WAB, I have something that says WAB, that is what it was. WAB. But did I know at the time, or was I in the know? No. This is after the fact. MR. a : Right, right, right. No. I'm just saying the, you know, it seems like a lot of people seemed to think that he was, you know, sent to court and released, whereas, you EFTA00110073

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know, as we just discussed, he was actually transferred. So, I was just wondering if that surprised you to find out that, oh, wow, I actually did know he was WAB after the, you know, on -- MS. a: Yeah, well -- MR. es : -- August 10th. MS. QM: -- yeah, that part, because that is, like you said, that has been, that has been the discussion all along, that ia went to court, and he was released from court. So, I'm hoping that my information is accurate, but typically, when you - because it’s now, it seems like, it conflicts, obviously, with what everyone’s recollection is - but typically, when you see WAB, that means With All Belongings, that the person is leaving, they are transferring. Now, how the whole court got into play, maybe, I don't know. And I don’t want to speculate, because it is just going to, you know, further confuse everything. MR. a : Okay. Yeah. No. I think we’ve definitely cleared up the fact that he was WAB, and he transferred, just upon the emails that we, you know, I talked to you about EFTA00110074

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 w ~] ive) with the U.S. Marshal Service, as well as this one. But I was just, you know, for you being that you are the one who gathered that document, I'm just hoping that we can figure out where that document went, because -- MS. a: Sure. MR. a : -- you know, it’s really the R&D document, and I'm hoping that that’s what it is, that we can track down, is whatever they -- MS. QR: well -- MR. a : -- generated. MS. Ha: -- I want to clarify. It may not be their specific document. If it’s a document that says WAB. MR. Ee : Absolutely. MS. Ha: It doesn't necessarily have to be their, you know -- MR. Ee : No, no. Absolutely. I'm just hoping that it is. And that we can track it down -- MS. QM: 9 Okay. MR. a : -- is what I'm saying. Like, I don't know what it is, because again, it’s not -- EFTA00110075

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~) wi 2 MR. a : -- specific. But yeah, I 3 was just hoping that you would be able to, you 4 know, provide some clarification on that 5 document. 6 Ms. J: 9 yeah. 7 MR. a : Now, just to back up a 8 little bit. Now, what was your responsibility, 9 like, e kind of split. Right? 10 There’s two AWs, and one is in charge of one 11 thing, and another is in charge of another. 2 What - when you were at the MCC - what were you 3 in charge of on August 9th and 10th? 4 MS. a: What? I was in - I had w oversight of correctional services. 16 MR. Ee : Okay. So, you actually did have oversight over thi 8 Ms. QJ: Mm-hmn. 9 MR. QJ: nd i: 20 MS. J: well -- 21 vR. SN: -- is 22 have -- incident? n n ct a wu ct | | you would 23 MS. a: -- I think what -- 24 MR. a : -- gathered all those 25 documents? EFTA00110076

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 w ~] MS. Ha: -- not specifically only because of that. But because I just know there is an incident that happened, because I’ve been an exec staff, and there is certain things that you should gather. But it wasn’t because I was the AW of correctional services. Now, as an AW, or someone in exec staff, you should just know kind of what to gather anyway. MR. QR: Okay. MS. Ha: What information to gather. MR. a : Okay. Great. And on that note, would that have been something that you would have gathered, specifically the R&D court production list? MS. i: No. Hmm-mm. MR. SR: = No? MS. QR: No. Mm-hmn. MR. a : But it’s just something that had -. Something that was court production for J with was, you just don’t know what it was. MS. a: I gathered all of the information that I knew logically was associated with Epstein. EFTA00110077

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: That was, it’s just logical connections, if you wanted - if you know you have an incident, and you know something happened, in the Special Housing, and there is only two inmates that are in the cell, you know you are not only going to focus on, quote unquote, “The victim.” You have to then also turn your attention to who was in the cell at the time. So, to me, anything that I gathered, as far as Sentry information for Epstein, or his Special Housing Unit record, I gathered the same for his cellmate because that’s just a logical thing to do. MR. QJ: Sure. And that is what I'm asking for my question. Being that you logically gathered these documents, and you can see that you wrote the document, I'm asking, like, can you recall what would be - what would have been the logical document that you would have gathered, that would have showed that he was -- MS. a: Oh, I understand what you mean. MR. QE: -- was? MS. a: Mm-hmm. I don’t, I don’t know if I would have gone in R&D to see, or if I ran EFTA00110078

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 - or if it was a Sentry roster, like, a log, a 2 PP-37 log that showed something. But I don’t - 3 thinking about it now - I honestly, I can't say 4 that, because I do have other R&D documents, 5 but I don't know if that was that R&D court 6 roster. 7 MR. a : If you don’t mind, and if 8 it’s not too much trouble, can you just send me 9 an email with the documents that you do have, 10 and then I can go through them to figure out 11 what it is we have and don’t have, and what we 2 need, and don’t need? 3 MS. aa: Sure. 4 MR. ae : With regards incident. 7 MR. ae : You can just 8 not right now. After, after we’re w 9 MS. aa: Okay. Not right n 20 MR. QM: Yeah, yeah. 22 MR. ae : No, no, not 23 MS. a: Okay. Mm-hmm. 24 MR. QJ: 411 xight. 25 MS. QBN: And I will also lo to this , like, and done. ow. right now. oc wm ok at other EFTA00110079

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 emails that I sent out, because it’s been, like I said, it’s been, it’s been several requests to show what I had and what I didn't have. So, any other emails, I will be more than happy to share with you. MR. a : Yeah. If you can just, if that’s possible, just to forward me those emails that you have provided -- MS. i: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- that had documents with regarding, with regard to the matter. MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : That would be great. So, being that you were the AW in charge of custody, you would probably be perfect to answer some of these questions. So, since Epstein was required to have a cellmate, what should have happened once the notification was made that | | was being transferred? MS. Ha: He should have received another cellmate. MR. a : And obviously, we probably did just cover this, and just because we got sidetracked, and you said that SHU staff, once they found out that || was EFTA00110080

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 transferred, they should have notified, Lieutenant | | wasn’t there, so they should have notified either the activities lieutenant, or the operations lieutenant. Is that what you said? MS. a: I'm saying that someone of a supervisory nature, yeah, should have been notified. MR. a : But who was it that should have notified them? Would it be the OIC of the SHU? Would it be the person that transferred || to R&D? You know it, when I say transferred, I mean escorted him to R&D. Should it have been R&D themselves? Who should have made the notification to the lieutenant? MS. a: And without me spinning the tale, and pointing a finger, because lack of, it didn't, it all depends. For instance, if the SHU staff knew that | | - and that’s why it’s just kind of, I don't know, a question mark - if the SHU staff knew that ia was not coming back, then that would mean that they would know that he wasn’t, he was not going to have a cellmate. So, without knowing what everybody knew, I -- EFTA00110081

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co io ioe) co OFFICIAL USE 81 MR. QJ: Okay. So, 1/11 -- MS. a: -- (Indiscernible *01:17: MR. a : -- fill you in on that. SHU OIC at was one who escorted Epstein to attorney conference that morning. And -- Mm-hmm. wer Monge, but one one of And during their EFTA00110082

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w co ioe) co OFFICIAL USE limate. i) was present, and there was an internal emplo that was present, and they both had this MR. QJ: -- actions taken at that time? -. Now, either one of a. was | was the OIC? was the ild have Either one of them said MS. MR. Ee : -- bringing Epstein, wersation was had with both Epstein ying, a. we know you’re leaving, Epstein, you’ll get a new cellmate re WAB. by the end of the day. EFTA00110083

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 should have then contacted the lieutenant. MR. a : Okay. So, being the AW in charge of custody, do you believe that -- MS. i: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- it was really fF that should have made that notification? MS. Ha: Because as the OIC, that means that you are, if you look at the post orders, you are basically have oversight of SHU, for lack of a better term. You should make sure that the rounds are being conducted. If inmates needs to be pulled out for whatever reason. That the appropriate inmates are going in their appropriate cages, so that, you know, separate tees are adhered to. That inmates are being fed. That sanitation is being conducted. And if, and because you are now telling me that this individual, whomever the individual is, is saying that they were aware that Epstein needed a cellmate, and that his cellmate was leaving, they knew, so when you know something, then you should, either you’re going to - if you didn't want to make the determination to make another decision about who the cellmate would be, then you need to contact your EFTA00110084

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 supervisor. If you, yourself, can't make a decision, you contact your supervisor who is authorized to make that decision. But you must make the contact in order for your supervisor to know. And as an OIC, you are aware of who you can contact. MR. QJ: Yeah. MS. i: That’s plainly known that you can contact the lieutenant when something is going on, especially for something that, it’s not, it’s the Special Housing Unit, that you must be able to get a decision maker. MR. QJ: Okay. So, he should have notified a lieutenant, is basically the long and short of it? MS. Ha: Yes. Yes. The long and short of it, he should have notified a lieutenant. MR. Ee : Okay. And are you aware if - we are going to just touch on counts and rounds that were conducted in the SHU - are you aware if the SHU counts and rounds were not conducte by the SHU staff on August 9th and 10th of 2019? MS. a: I was aware after the fact that EFTA00110085

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 the staff members indicated that they did not make rounds. MR. a : And what did you become aware of? Can you just give me a little bit more clarity on that? MS. a: Well, I became aware of it just like everybody else, you know, that the staff member are saying that they didn't make rounds. But was I aware of it on the day? No. MR. a : No, no, no. I'm sorry -- MS. MMMM: 9 (Indiscernible *01:21:57). MR. a : -- so, what I mean is, like, what did you became aware of? What staff members, and what did you learn? MS. i: Oh. Oh, oh. Okay. The two staff members that were assigned on the morning watch shift, that they have said that they did not make rounds. MR. Ee : And is that Tova Noel and Michael Thomas? MS. ia: Yes. Those were the two staff members that worked that shift. MR. a : And do you remember who you learned that information from? MS. a: No. Hmm-mm. EFTA00110086

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B86 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. Did either Thomas or Noel say that that, you know, tell you that information directly? MS. i: No. I didn't -. I haven't even, from the day of the incident, I have not laid eyes on either one of them. MR. es : Okay. MS. QM: Besides on TV. So, I have not spoken to either one of them. Well, no, and I'm not going to say I haven't spoken to either one of them. I did call to make welfare checks on staff members, to see if they were okay, and that was weeks after, because they haven't been at work, and that’s what we were told to do, to call the staff members, just to say, you know, if you’re okay. Because they physically were not in the institution. But as far as discussing the incident, and what they did and did not do, I did not engage in that. MR. a : Okay. And did you learn anything, you know, during your time on this, did you learn anything about the accuracy of the MCC SHU counts and rounds on August 9th and 10th of 2019? MS. a: You said did I run anything as EFTA00110087

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 far as the -. MR. a : Did you learn if they were accurate or not? Like, the counts that they conducted, and the rounds they conducted. Did you find out through your, you know, what you were doing, did you learn if they were accurate counts and accurate rounds? MS. QM: he date, the date, you’re saying the date of when I was gathering the information, or the documentation? MR. a : Or at any point. Did you ever find out if the counts were either accurate or not? And the rounds were accurate or not. MS. i: Not specifically about the counts and the rounds, but just like, like I said, and like everybody else, of what has come out, that they said that they did not do counts. I mean, do rounds. MR. a : But had you heard anything about, like, the counts being wrong? Like, they’re actually reporting the wrong numbers, or anything like that? MS. MMM: 9 (indiscernible *01:24:04). I'm trying to remember. I know that there was, EFTA00110088

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there was discussion about whether or not the count was done because, and I can't remember exactly what happened to make that come up, but I know there - we couldn't find certain count slips. And I think somebody, and I can't remember if it was Epstein, or a. or somebody was not keyed out. One of the inmates was not keyed out, and if that, and my memory is serving me properly, and the count should have been affected by -- MR. QM: «Right. And did -- MS. i: -- you know, inaccurate Sentry. Inaccurate Sentry information. MR. QJ: -- okay. So, you are aware of that then. Yeah. So, do you know, it’s, I think the inmate’s name was Fernandes. Does that ring a bell? Someone that -- Ms. BR: 1 -- MR. Ee : -- was found to have been Pass contraband, and then, they were removed from the SHU and placed in R&D holding cell, but they were not actually keyed out of the SHU? MS. a: No. I don’t - hmm-mm - I don’t remember that specific. Hmm-mm. EFTA00110089

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) OFFICIAL USE 8 \o MR. Ee : Okay. But you remember someone wasn’t keyed out, which messed up the counts? MS. a: If you, it was something to that effect. That there was somebody not keyed out. I don't know if it was about SHU or about the institution itself. But I know that there was something about, there was some Sentry inaccuracies that should have affected the count. MR. Ee : Okay. And do you know if that was documented anywhere, or you, you know, provided information to anyone on that, that you might be able to retrieve, to help, you know, help us? MS. a: I'm going MR. ae : You know, you don’t have to do now. rr o try. MR. QJ: | But this is another one MR. a : -- things that if -- MR. a : -- you can put that to EFTA00110090

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED co wo co OFFICIAL USE your -- -- those two things. One, whatever documents -- Ms. QE: *01:25:53). ms. QE: That wasn’t something the only reason I did. Let Hold on. Leonardo. Ms. 9: What’ What s his -? Let me pull that up. I was going to touch on that’s All right. So, it’s L-fJ-o-n-a-R-D-o. Mm-hmm. Fernandes. r-f-R-N-aA-N- EFTA00110091

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MS. || : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. a : Register number 86824- 3 054. 4 MS. a: Okay. And you said he was -. 5 MR. a : And there is, you 6 actually have an -. Actually, what I pulled up 7 was an email from | | to both you 8 and P| ae . So, and it talks -- 9 MS. a: And it said, it talks about 10 that 11 MR. QJ: «No. =It talks about the 2 incident, where it just talks about, the date 3 was Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 3:52 p.m., and 4 it just says, “On August 9th, 2019, at 15 approximately 1:37 p.m., while conducting 16 routine duties, the 9 South visiting officer 7 observed a female visitor produce an unknown 8 object from her waistband and hand it to inmate 9 Fernandez.” And then, it just talks about, you 20 know, a little bit more of it. But this is the 21 individual -- EFTA00110092

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) fos) oo OFFICIAL USE inaccura was stil MS. fact rt 7] o investig MS. the ie a oO Zz (2) ha jon PB =] ite] 0 0] i bb count numbers tely reported. 1 adding him on their count slips. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ok And does that -- *01:28:02). (Indiscernible talks about the that it -. That’s ation has revealed. EFTA00110093

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Because we had to figure out why are, you know, are the counts accurate or not, how do we find out if they -- MS. i: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- actually conducted the counts, or didn't conduct the counts. MS. Ha: Okay. MR. a : So, when we went through everything, we found that there was some discrepancies based upon what was on the lieutenant’s log versus what was on institutional count, which was on the, you know, count slips. There are different things. And then, you know, looking through the lieutenant log, we see that, on August 10th, during the night, at around 12:30 a.m., it has a note in there, saying that they keyed Fernandez out of the SHU, or out of the SHU, and into wherever, R&D. And that’s how we were able to figure out, okay, these count slips are actually all off. Ms. QR: on. MR. a : They are saying that they were counting this many bodies, whereas, in fact, there was one less because he wasn’t EFTA00110094

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

ies) w ~] oo wo i=) ive) w MS. a: Okay. Yeah. That doesn't jog, that doesn't jog my memory for that, though. MR. QJ: this is kind of the first you’re hearing of that, then? MS. a: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t -. If for whatever reason, this is, I don’t recall 17] n anything about that. MR. Ee : There was something you recalled about the counts being off, but it wasn’t that? MS. a: Yeah. But it wasn’t that. Hmm-mm. MR. Ee : But you did know that someone wasn’t keyed out? MS. aa: I, perhaps out of the institution, and again, if something came up about the count, but I don’t recall there being - and because it’s -- MR. QJ: «Well, 1 think -- MS. a: -- (Indiscernible *01:29:35). MR. a : -- well, there was a question that - and maybe this is something wo EFTA00110095

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED w ~] ive) OFFICIAL USE 95 that the warden asked you - but Ray Ormond, who I'm assuming you know - correct? - the regional director at the time. Ms. QB: Yeah. mMm-hnn. MR. a : He sent an email to Warden N'Diaye, on the, I believe the 10th, asking, “Why are the counts off? Why does one say 72, and one say 73?” Maybe. MS. i: For Special Housing? MR. a : For Special Housing. Correct. So, maybe -- MR. a : -- that’s where they asked you. Do you recall? MS. i: And you said, when did, that happened on the day of 8/10? MS. Ha: Yeah. That would have been Ray, Mr. Ormond asking N'Diaye on 8/10 because MR. a : -- he was provided all the count documentation, and asking him -- MR. a : -- why are these counts - Why did the count - oh, no. He said, “Why EFTA00110096

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 did the count change?” That’s what it was. MS. Ha: Okay. MR. a : He was, like, from the 10:00 p.m. -- MS. Ha: That’s probably -- MR. a : -- count to midnight, it changed from 73 down to 72 , and our investigation has revealed it’s because this person was never keyed out of the SHU -- MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- until -- MS. a: That is maybe that is what prompted it, but like I said, I knew something happened with the count, and from that, I - myself and Lieutenant | were trying to gather the count slips, and it should be a 30- day file maintained in control, and we were not able to find the count slips. So, I didn't know it. Well, now that you’re telling me, I didn't know it was because of that. And there is some things that I was in the know about, that I - or I wasn’t - but I knew it had something to do, like, is that with the counts, and we were told to get some of the count slips. EFTA00110097

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oO co OFFICIAL USE don’t have anything to add to that. all kind of -- for sorry - a SHU lieut So, when a lieutenant should that SHU vities, a Okay. But Mm-hmm. 97 just, you This is -- more new information Mm-hmm. Okay. We What is a enant round? conducts consist o when you’re the § And I don’ lieutenant. Just when can move on, lieutenant - or So, sorry. a round in the t mean I said that a lieutenant, lieutenant -- EFTA00110098

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- an activities lieutenant, an operation lieutenant. When a lieutenant goes to the SHU and conducts a round, what should they be doing when they conduct a round? MS. a: They should be walking around and talking to the inmates. MR. QJ: So, is there, is the SHU -. Is a lieutenant round the same thing as a staff round, where you are supposed to go up and actually check on the inmates? MS. i: Hmm. I'm not going to say it’s the exact same thing because the staff in SHU, they actually have to record that they have done rounds. And by them recording that, they are indicating that they recorded timely rounds, and that they actually are able to say with certainty that they looked, you know, that they verified that all the inmates are there, and that they are alive. Versus a lieutenant, what your responsibility is, you are just making, you are generally making sure that you go around and ensure that everything is okay. But are you specifically and stopping at every single cell? I wouldn't say necessarily that EFTA00110099

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 w ~] ive) that i 7) exactly, but it mimics the same requirement as the staff. gone at 8:30, approximately 8:30 a.m. on August MS. QR: 9 Mm-hm. MR. a : -- and there is obviously, I think there is supposed to be at least, what? One lieutenant round conducted in MR. Ee : So, if there is an activity, you know, the SHU lieutenant is out, so there is an activities or an ops lieutenant conducting a round, both the day shift and the night shift, and then, the operations lieutenant conducting one in the morning shift. Should any of those lieutenants realized, when they were doing their rounds, that Epstein, you know, | was gone, and/or Epstein was by himself? EFTA00110100

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: Yeah. If - now, that’s a -. I would say yes. I would say yes. MR. a : And how should have they known that? What should have the -. What should have clued them in on the fact that | is gone, and Epstein is by himself? Or if Epstein is in attorney conference, there is just no one in the cell in general. Ms. : well -- MR. a : Since they have names on the door tags, like you said. MS. a: -- that’s what I was going to - yeah - that’s what I was going to say. But the names on the -. The names on the door tag. When someone leaves, you should remove the door tags, so then, in fact, there should have only just been one tag on the door. You wouldn’t have, you wouldn't have two tags on the door if there is only supposed to be one person in there. So, the tag should have been removed. And -. MR. a : Do you know if the tag was removed for | og MS. a: That, I don't know if |g tag was removed, because I didn't go in the EFTA00110101

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Special Housing Unit. So, I don't know if his tag was removed. But you - by us talking - you indicated that the SHU staff was aware that he was leaving. So, they put the tags up, they should remove the tags. And there would be no reason to keep a tag on the door, indicating that there is two inmates. One, when you are aware that he is no longer going to be there. MR. a : But should -- MS. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : -- should those lieutenants have conducted a round on basically Epstein’s cell? MS. Ha: I would -. You would conduct a -. I would say yes. Because especially if you have a highlighted inmate, or an inmate of great concern. Or someone that you know you need to check on. If you are not going to look at anybody else’s cell, you would definitely look at, or check on, the inmates that are of concern, to even say, hey, you okay? Or, you know, just to talk with them, or physically see them. So, I would say that you would - yeah - that you would have looked in his cell to see something, that something is going on. EFTA00110102

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. a : Now, what about -- MS. Ha: And then -. MR. a : -- if Epstein -. So, if they are conducting their rounds when Epstein is in attorney visits, should they still be checking in on his cell itself, like, to make sure everything is okay with his cellmate, or anything like that? Ms. QJ: well, if he was, if he was physically inside of his, he physically was not inside the cell at the time, but the only way for you to know, because why would the lieutenant automatically know that he’s in attorney conference? So, you still would have looked in his cell. MR. Ee : So, they - regardless, in this specific, you know, Epstein is your highest profile inmate at the time -- MS. QE: 9 m-hmn. MR. QJ: -— any time a lieutenant basically goes into that SHU, they should really check on him? And check on that cell? MS. Ha: I would say so. MR. a : Okay. But that is more of a, you know, it sounds like it’s not EFTA00110103

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 necessarily a policy, but just, that’s good practice. Is that what you are saying? MS. a: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I'm saying. And because it was known, as you and I discussed, that he should have a cellmate. So, there’s certain things that you would be checking for, you would be checking for his welfare, and you would also be checking to make sure that those recommendations were adhered to because you want to make sure, with certainty, if you are saying that you made the round, you are annotating it in the book that you made the round. And you would want to say that you actually went around to them, and you checked on these things. MR. a : But is there any kind of BOP or MCC policy or directive that, you know, they would have violated, if they didn't in fact check on Epstein’s cell? MS. Ha: I can't say that it would be a -. I don’t know about the lieutenant, that they would say that, because they didn't look in one cell or two cells. But I do know, if you are indicating, and then, that’s another thing. If you are, when you come inside of the EFTA00110104

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Special Housing Unit, there is a logbook. If you are annotating in the logbook that you are visiting, or if you are indicating in the logbook that you are doing a round, you -. So, I'm going to backtrack what I said before. MR. a : Well, there is an actual log sheet that they sign. So, the lieutenants actually have to sign that they conducted their round. MS. Ha: So then, that’s why I'm going to backtrack then. If you are saying that you did rounds, that means that you should have looked in all of the cells. MR. QJ: Okay. And so, for a lieutenant, that - and that, so, this is where we've been getting kind of different information - some lieutenants are saying, absolutely, you need to go down each range, check on every cell door. Other lieutenants are saying, no, no, no, no, we’re just supposed to check in with the staff member that are in there, and make sure that they don’t have any problems. Our rounds are really conducted on the staff members, not on the inmates. So, that is where I am - and there is nothing that EFTA00110105

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I can find, specifically in policy, that really specifies that information. MS. a: Yeah. So, I - and that’s where I was kind of weaving back and forth. A lieutenants’ purpose, let’s just say in the general housing, like, general, you know, GP. You are making rounds on the unit, you’re checking on, generally, you’re checking on the unit itself. And you don’t, you would not go down, and checking every cell, because that’s general population. You don’t anticipate being in SHU. And you are making yourself available in the event that the staff member needs something. So, you are physically supposed to go. But if it’s the Special Housing Unit, and then, also 10 South, which MCC also has. MR. ee: Correct. MS. a: Your responsibility level, because of the practices, or just you knowing, inherently, what you should be doing, it’s a little different than the just making yourself available to the staff. You are not just there for the staff. You are also there for the inmates because they can't come to you. You have to go to them. EFTA00110106

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : Okay. So -- MS. Ha: So -. MR. a : -- so, basically, I'm understanding that general population, no, a SHU - or a lieutenant wouldn't have to - with their rounds - don’t have to be with the specific inmates, but in the SHU, because they have limited movement, and they are only in their cells, a lieutenant really should be checking on each cell, during their rounds? MS. Ha: For - like you said - for good correctional judgment, sound correctional practices, you - yeah - you would. MR. QJ: | But to your knowledge, there is no requirement. It’s just sound judgment and sound practice? MS. Ha: Yeah. And because that, but that’s why I was going back, because I don’t think there is anything written that says when a lieutenant makes his rounds, they should go to every single cell. I know their requirement is, like you said, for you to, for a lieutenant to be present, and to, on every shift, as well as if there is also, also different departments that are required to make rounds. Weekly. And EFTA00110107

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with that in mind, you typically know that that means that you are stopping at every door, and you are talking to the inmates, because again, your purpose in SHU is to provide information, and again, it’s not like they can come out to you. So, you have to go to them. MR. es : So, just to wrap this thing up, if a lieutenant is saying that they did not conduct any rounds of cells, they just stopped in and talked to staff members. Do you believe that they did something wrong? MS. i: I would say that I don’t think that they acted responsibly. I don’t want to say it’s wrong or right because, you know, then that person could say this, it’s not written, but I would say that that’s not a responsible decision. MR. a : So, when they certify their round sheets that they conducted a round, what do you believe that they are certifying? MS. a: That they have visited SHU, and that they visited the inmates. MR. a : Okay. So, you do believe that certification that they are signing, that they conducted a round in the SHU, is that they EFTA00110108

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 actually did conduct a round with the inmates? MS. Ha: That is what I believe. MR. a : Okay. But that is more of a belief and opinion versus a knowledge. Correct? MS. a: Yes. MR. es : Okay. Great. We can move on. Next thing we are going to talk about, and I apologize this has taken a little long, is the cameras. Do you know if the SHU cameras were recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019? MS. Ha: I know there was some -. And again, this is information that has become available after the fact. I know it has become known after the fact that there was some cameras that were not working. And that were not recorded. But did I know the day of the incident? No. I did not know on the day of the incident. MR. a : Did you know why they weren’t recording? Do you know what happened with the cameras? MS. a: I know that, I don’t know why they were not working on that day, but I know EFTA00110109

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that, following Epstein, that there have been issues with MCC’s cameras. The recorder, that there was supposed to be a backup camera, and that, when the primary camera failed to record, that there was supposed to be another camera that kind of acts, or kind of, you know, interfaces, so that there is always some recording going on. That has been going on, and again, that was after the fact, but as far as the day of, I don’t know. MR. a : So, you don’t know what caused the cameras to stop recording? MS. Ha: No. I don't know. MR. QJ: Okay. And do you remember the - so, on August 8th, which would have been a Thursday - do you remember, if on August 8th, if you and SIS Lieutenant | were attempting to review video footage, and you learned that you were not able to rewind the cameras, and review the footage that you were looking for? MS. a: You said on August 8th? MR. a : Right. And to help further jog your memory. So, the information we received from Lieutenant | was that the EFTA00110110

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 two of you were attempting to review video footage, you weren’t able to, so you called the comtech, Hughwon Daniel, and asked him to review the matter, and fix the issue. Does that ring a bell to you? MS. a: If she’s saying that that’s happened, and I know, Lieutenant | and I have had conversations, and about that, I would say that that’s - that if she is saying that she and I had a conversation, I would say that that probably did occur. MR. a : But you don’t recall it? MS. Ha: I don’t know if it was August 8th, or if it happened prior to. But I do recall. I, again, I recall her and I trying to look at something, but I don’t recall the date or the timeframe. MR. a : So, I guess, when you arrived on the 10th, and learned that the cameras weren’t recording, which is, I'm assuming, you would have learned on that day, the 10th, that Epstein was found. Is that -- MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- is that accurate? MS. a: No. No. That is not accurate. EFTA00110111

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. Ee : Okay. When did you learn that the cameras actually weren’t, or didn't record, or weren’t recording? MS. a: I don’t recall exactly when I learned that -- MR. a : Oh, okay. MS. a: -- but mm-hmm. MR. a : Okay. So, when we spoke with Lieutenant a. she said, when she found out on the 10th that the cameras weren’t recording, she went to Daniel and said, hey what happened? You were to supposed fix this. So, I didn't know if you -- MR. a : -- you would have, you know, had a similar reaction, or a similar take on the matter. MS. aa: Mm-hmm. And she is saying that it was the SHU cameras that were not recording? MR. QM: Well, she -- MS. QM: -- (indiscernible *01:45:44). MR. a : -- well, she just said that she knows that there were problems with the cameras. I would have to look back at her EFTA00110112

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 transcript to find out exactly if we were talking about the SHU, but she says that -- MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- the two of you were trying, were attempting to review video, and you were unable to review it because there was, you couldn't find the recording, or you couldn't rewind. So, the, you know, the determination was made between the two of you, and I can actually, let me pull up the actually specific part of what she, of what she said here. To see if you think it’s accurate. So, it says, “I remember stepping into his office.” Oh, okay. So, “I remember stepping into his office, which was right next door to mine, and notifying him that the camera was down, and I'm trying to get back to look at footage, and I can't. Actually, I had one of the associate wardens with me, as well, who happens to be his supervisor.” “So,” I said, “Who was that?” “Associate Warden i.’ yf was there?” “Yes.” “Okay.” “It was me and her together, looking at the camera.” “Okay. So, it wasn’t a: It EFTA00110113

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was actually | “No. It was me and AW i.’ “And that was with Captain |i “Yes.” “Okay. So then, the two of them knew that the cameras were down?” “Yes.” “All right. And do you know if they had any conversation with Daniel about a need to get them back up?” She says, “I don’t know if they had a separate conversation, but when I called Mr. Daniel over to radio, Ms. || was still standing there with me in the office, and she was there with me when he came up to check, because we thought it was something that maybe he could just go in, and it allow us to go to look at the camera, and look for what we were “" looking for. So, does that ring a bell to you at all? MS. a: Yeah. That does. Mm-hmm. MR. Ee : Does that sound accurate? MS. Ha: It does. Mm-hmn. MR. a : Okay. So, and this was what she was saying, was on August 8th, that she went in. So, do you know if, were you there and present when Daniel was brought into the office and told to fix the issue? EFTA00110114

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 w ~] ive) MS. Ha: I don’t recall. I don’t recall - hmm-mm - I don’t recall having that conversation. And then, and I could have had that conversation, but I don’t recall having a conversation with Daniel. MR. a : Okay. So, you don’t recall -. But you do recall -- MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- this interaction -- MS. Ha: I remember -- MR. Ee : -- with both you, Lieutenant a. and -- MR. ae : -- Captain | og MS. i: Mm-hmm. I do remember that. And speaking of, I don’t remember if it was, if it was, because I'm trying to understand if it was because you were saying we just couldn’t rewind, or if it was known that it was not, or if it was that the cameras were not recording. I'm hoping that you understand what I'm saying. MR. ae : Yeah. So, the way that - all right - the question was asked, so I said, “Okay. So then, the two of them knew the cameras were down?” She said, “Yes.” And I EFTA00110115

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 said, “Oh, all right. And do you know if they had any conversations with Daniel about a need to get them back up?” She said, “I don’t know if they had a separate conversation, but when I called Mr. Daniel over to radio, Ms. | | was still standing there with me in the office, and she was there with me when he came up to check because we thought it was something that may be he could just go in and it allow us to go to the camera, and look for what we were looking for.” I then said, “And when he mentioned the whole -”. So then, we started talking about overtime, and when he couldn't fix it, I said, “And when he mentioned the whole, I’1ll stay overtime, was she there when - was || there - when he mentioned that he would stay to work overtime?” And she said, “I can't remember.” MS. Ha: Well, and I know that, if I had a conversation with Daniel, or anybody, about the cameras not recording, versus you not being able to rewind on your, on the Nice Vision. That that would have been something that would, that I would have known that was important. And I'm trying to differentiate because there EFTA00110116

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 are there, and I have had the experience that I have access to Nice. And I was not able to actually rewind on one of the cameras. But it’s not because the camera was not recording. It’s because it was, the camera was not programmed correctly or something. I don’t even know if I'm using the proper word. But it's not that the camera was not recording. It had something to do more with you’re not being able to pull it up and rewind it on the Nice Vision application. But it’s not the same as it not being recorded. So, that’s why I was asking you, is she saying that we knew that it was not recording? Because that’s not my knowledge, or my understanding, that the cameras were not recording. MR. ee: Okay. Yeah. No. Her specific words were, “I remember stepping into his office, which was right next door to mine, and notifying him that the camera was down. And I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, and I can't. Actually, I had one of the associate wardens with me -- MS. a: Yeah. 116 EFTA00110117

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: That - I wouldn’t say that that means that the camera is not recording. Hmm- mm. MR. J: so -- MS. QR: And that -. MR. a : -- so, saying the camera was down, that would, what would you think that that was saying? MS. i: And that’s not -. When you say that a camera is down, that’s different than the whole system not recording. That’s not the same thing. That might be that one particular camera, and whatever area that she was talking about, that I believe they had to be a fight, or something happening for her and I to look at a camera. That particular camera may, again, something might have not been programmed correctly, that we were not able to rewind. But that is not the same thing as a whole system not being operational. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: It’s two totally different MR. a : Okay. So, my question on this really is -- EFTA00110118

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) N ive) oO co wo No Nm No ion) OFFICIAL USE 118 still fine. question on this is regarding Daniel, because it sounds like Daniel was the issue, and that’s really why I'm as this question. Do you know if Daniel was nstructed that you need to fix this issue? MS. QE: 9 you in general. said in SHU? Well, no. i) ct S 0] 20 wu ameras (Indiscernible *01:52:06). Well, we learned that the Through the investigation. And to find -- this Mm-hmm. -- and determining, well, found out? This is -- MS. i: Okay. problem with the cameras. when was first you know, that there was a You know, we obviously had to talk to a lot of people, EFTA00110119

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 w ~] including, you know, Daniel, and a. and, you know -- MS. a: Now, that, now, I would like to ask you to, did Daniel ever say that he knew that the whole camera system was not working, and when he knew, and who he had a conversation with? MR. a : No, no, no. Ms. MMM: 9 About it. MR. a : -- so, the understanding that I am of is that - and again, I know at least ma spoke with Daniel, and she believed that you were with her when the conversation took place. So, that is where I was asking if you recall having a conversation with | and Daniel? MS. Ha: I recall that, but not about the camera system. The whole Nice system. And all of the cameras in SHU not recording. MR. ae : Yeah. Right. And I'm not saying that that would have been the conversation. I would think that the conversation would more be along the lines of, EFTA00110120

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 hey, we are trying to review this vi 2 are not able to do it. Can you figu 3 what’s going on with the cameras? 4 MS. MJ: $f that, if we had a 5 conversation about that, then I coul 6 logically, that, yeah, I would say, ~] hey, why we can't rewind? 8 MR. a : Sure. 9 MS. i: Can you fix a camera 10 LL or see why it’s not focused, or s 11 that effect. 12 MR. a : Right. And so 13 question -- 14 MS. QM: Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. a : -- is to you - 16 MS. Ha: Yeah. 120 deo. We re out d see, Daniel, , X, Y, and omething to , my 17 MR. ae : -- do you remember what 18 the conversation entailed? 19 MS. Ha: I can't remember the 20 conversation, but I know, if we were 21 about a particular image, or a parti 22 camera, and again, I'm not saying th 23 recording, we are saying that we can 24 that is what it would have been abou 25 why can't we rewind? Why can't we p talking cular at it’s not "t rewind, t. Daniel, ull up EFTA00110121

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 camera X, Y, and | But not about the whole system. Especially if the whole system was not in question. Or there was no talk about the system not recording, or even SHU not recording. There was never any conversation about SHU, or anything. So, that’s the conversation would have been limited to that particular camera, and why we can't rewind. MR. a : Absolutely. And then -- MR. a : -- that is kind of my understanding -- MS. Ha: Yeah. MR. QJ: |S -- is what your part of this conversation was, is we are having an issue trying to recording, can you figure it out? And my question to isn’t, like, you know, this isn’t an I gotcha type of question, even in the slightest. It’s just, if you can -- MS. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : -- recall what conversation you had with Daniel. MS. Ha: I can only recall about that, like you said, about the interaction with | and I talking about why we were not able 121 EFTA00110122

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to rewind to see what happened. Because we were able to pull the image up. We were just not able to rewind. So, that is what I'm saying. There is, and it might sound like I'm trying to be very specific and deliberate, because I am, because there is a difference with you accessing the Nice system, and I'm not an electronic - an electrician - or, you know, an electronic person, and I could physically see it, I could see it, but I am not able to rewind. That doesn't let me know that, oh, the system is not recording. So, that would not have ever been part of the conversation. The conversation would have been limited to, why is it that I am able to look at it, but I can't rewind? MR. ee: Sure. Now, do you know anything about -- MS. Ha: So, figure that out. MR. a : -- and do you know if, do you know if Lieutenant | created a memo, and provided it to i. regarding the camera issue on the 8th? MS. aa: No. Now, if she included me in it, then I would say, oh, okay -- EFTA00110123

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. Ee : But you -- MS. a: -- but I don’t -- MR. a : -- yeah. And I don't know that she would have included. She said that she wrote a memo, based upon the issue with the camera, and provided it to Captain MS. a: Hmm-mm MR. Ee : -- but when you -. But you do remember when, you know, in her, like I just read to you, she said that the 0 onversation with the problem with rewinding actually was with you and a. though? Do you remember | being present for that, you know -? MS. aa: Now, I don't know if | was present for that. But I do, I know, because of you reciting about the conversation, I do know, definitely, that | was there, and if she is saying that JJ was there, it is -. Gosh, I don't know see why she would say he was or he wasn’t. It didn't have great importance to me, that conversation, because it wasn’t -. EFTA00110124

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, that is why I am not, I am not - I can't recall this (Indiscernible *01:56:39), oh, this person was there, that person was there, because it wasn’t, it wasn’t, in my mind, highlighted that the camera system was down. so -- MR. es : Okay. So, what we have learned is that, that is when Daniel checked on the system, and he realized that - and this, there is nothing that we learned that, you know, have any knowledge of this, so I will just, you know, put that out front - -s that Daniel said he checked on the system, and he realized that two of the drives were down, and when two drives go down, it stops the system from recording. So, half of the cameras in the institution stopped, were not recording at the time. And this was basically learned on August 8th and August 9th, when he was trying to fix the system. Were you ever made aware of that information? MS. a: No. I was not. MR. a : Okay. Is this the first time you are even hearing of that information? MS. Ha: Absolutely. EFTA00110125

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And is there someone that he should have told about that information, the fact that -- MS. i: Yeah. MR. a : -- no, no, no, that half the cameras in the institution are actually down and not recording? I mean, there is a live feed, but there is no recording. MS. i: Yeah. So, he should have definitely told his first line supervisor, who would have known to then tell his supervisor, and if I am the common denominator, because I am, I was the AW, and I probably was supervising facilities at the time, that information, at some point, would have made it to me. MR. ee: All right. So, this is another one of those everyone seemed to be out on the 9th, at least. Mr. Nobile was the facilities manager, and he was actually out that entire week. So, he wasn’t in the know that the cameras were down. So, it was just -- MS. Ha: There is a, there is a -. Okay. So, there is his -. So, Daniel’s first line supervisor is not actually Nobile. Nobile EFTA00110126

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 was his second line supervisor. 3 MS aa: His first line supervisor was 4 another person. Linton (Phonetic Sp. 5 *01:58:34) I don't know if Linton was working 6 at the institution at the time, but Nobile, who 7 is the facility manager, is the second line 8 supervisor. 10 MS. MM: so, I don’t -. 11 MR. Ee : -- would Linton be, you 2 are talking about the general foreman? ive) Hi Yeah. The general foreman. 4 MR. ae : If there was no one -- t t Oo wi a 1) K oO wu rr Ss -- filing the general 7 foreman at the time -- B Ms. EE: No. 9 MR Ee : -- is our understanding. 20 MS. QM: so, there was not even an 21 acting in place? 22 MR. ae : Yeah. From Nobile’s out 23 of office response, to the people that acted in 24 his stead, where Ryan McNamara (Phonetic Sp. 25 *01:58:57), and I think her name was Geise EFTA00110127

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Phonetic Sp. *01:59:02). MS. QM: oh. oh. mR. QJ: Bot -- MS. i: Acting in his place. MR. a : -- right. So, but that wasn’t an acting for the general foreman. From our understanding is that there was just no one in the general foreman role at the time, and that’s, unfortunately, on the 9th, there is a lot of people that were out of the institution, and a lot of people that were not there, that would have -- MS. Ha: Then -- MR. QJ: | -- potentially been in the know in these situations. MS. a: -- then he could have contacted, he should have contacted somebody. I mean, if you are all - and I'm just going to say line staff, but they are all peers, they are all subordinates, and no one is a supervisor. If there is something that, that’s a security issue, you would raise it to someone, of a supervisory nature. And if your supervisor is not there, you would raise that to the next level, who was, in the absence of EFTA00110128

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your supervisor, your supervisor’s supervisor. MR. a : And do you know, so, according to Daniel, this is something that happened quite regularly. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : That these things would go down, he would have to rebuild the system, and then the cameras would be down for, you know, a period of 24 hours, while the system rebuilt. Were you aware of that? MS. Ha: Hmm. No. I know, after the fact, there have been issues that we were aware of with the camera. But prior to, and again, I arrived at the institution in July -- MR. a : Sure. MS. a: -- so, this is one-month in. So, if there were historical issues with the camera, I have no way of knowing what existed because I was not present then. But at the time that I was present, there is no mention of those cameras being down. And again, because of that incident, there was obviously heightened attention to the cameras, and who you should notify when you are aware that a camera is down. But at the time ,when I was, EFTA00110129

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you know, like I said, a recent arrival, there was no mention or a discussion that I was aware of about any issues with the camera. MR. a : Okay. So, leading up to this issue, you didn't know that the cameras, they are a big problem at the institution? MS. Ha: You said leading up, or following the incident? MR. a : No. Leading up to the incident. MS. Ha: You said, did I have any knowledge of it? MR. QJ: Right. MS. MM: yes. Leading up to the incident, there was no knowledge that there was issues with the cameras recording. MR. ae : Okay. And do you know if - when you and Lieutenant | were speaking with Daniel - do you know if he was told to fix the camera situation immediately? Or to just look into it and figure out what’s going on. Do you recall? MS. Ha: I don’t -. I don’t want to -. I don’t want to -. I don’t recall my exact words to him. But again, if there was no EFTA00110130

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) mention that the camera was not recording, there is a difference when instruction, based on knowledge that the cameras are not working, versus knowledge that the camera that I can see it, but I can't rewind it: MR. a : Sure. MS. a: And not -- MS. i: -- knowing -- MR. a : -- so, you knew that there was an issue with the camera. You just didn't know what the issue was. MS. Ha: I knew that we could not rewind. Yes. MR. QJ: okay. Ms. QM: yes. MR. ae : And do you remember if you ever followed up, after that conversation, with anyone, to say, hey, did that ever get resolved? MS. ia: I don’t. I don’t recall. MR. ae : Okay. Is there a reason why you should have, or did you believe someone else was on top of it, and that was fixing it, and looking into it? EFTA00110131

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: I don’t (Indiscernible *02:02:48). I don’t -. I actually, I don’t recall because, again, at the time, when we were looking at the camera, you can see it. So, there was, there was never any discussion, or there was never even no information to say that the camera was not working. There was never any discussion about that. So, to follow up on an issue that you don’t know is present, I would say that that’s, if I didn't have a further discussion about it, it’s because of that, that there was no discussion that the camera was not recording. MR. QJ: Okay. So, from the knowledge that you do have, that, you know, you know, according to i. she was saying she knew that the cameras weren’t recording, and they were down. And then, Daniel saying that he was going to fix them, and he clearly knew the cameras weren’t recording. What should have happened? MS. a: Well, first, I want to clarify, you are saying that | | said that she knew the cameras were not recording. MR. a: She - yeah - her -. That EFTA00110132

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is what I read you before - that she said, her words, “Notifying him that the camera was down, and trying to go back and look at the footage, and I can't.” And then, later on -- MS. Ha: But that’s not saying that -- MR. a : -- saying, you know, saying -- wR. QM: | -- so, okay -- MR. a : -- the two of them knew the cameras were down. Yes. And then, she said that she actually wrote a memo to the captain, saying that, you know, the cameras were down, and that Daniel was fixing the issue. And then, when he came in on the 10th, to find out the cameras still hadn’t recorded, she had a conversation with Daniel and said, hey, you told me you were going to fix the cameras. Why didn't you fix them? So, I'm not saying that you have any part of this. What I'm saying -- MS. a: No. I know -- EFTA00110133

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MR. Ee : -- being that Lieutenant 2 | seems to have known that the cameras 3 were down, and Daniel definitely knew the 4 cameras were down, what should have happened? 5 MS. aa: Then no one should hav 6 followed up to say were the cameras, if saying down means not recording. co Fs) Right. And that’s what 9 they -- 10 MS. a: That’s (Indiscernible 11 *02:04:57) 3 Daniel went into, you know, great detail of, 4 the cameras, you could watch live, it’s only 15 when you try to rewind, because they weren’t 16 recording. And he said -- 7 MS. : That’s -- Lee) 5 | 1 + x 3 n b 7] what happened 9 -- 20 MS. FM: -- (indiscernible *02:05:11). 21 MR. ae : -- and he -- 22 MS. QM: -- (Indiscernible *02:05:11). 23 MR. a : -- sorry. Go ahead. 24 MS. : I don't know if ma knew , the explanation that you said, EFTA00110134

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Daniel provided, that, I have never had a conversation to say that the reason why you can't rewind is because the cameras are not recording. I don’t know. I can't say what | knew. If she understood that that’s what that meant. I know that I know that that’s -. I did not know that that’s what that meant. So, if Daniel never came back, and said, oh, the cameras are not recording, that is a difference with then just saying that, oh, you could see the camera, you are thinking that the camera is working. If you pull up a camera on the Nice Vision (Phonetic Sp. *02:05:52), and you could actually see the image and everything, you are thinking that the camera is recording. So, how else would -? Why else would you think that it’s not recording? MR. a : Well, that’s why -- MS. MMM: 9 (indiscernible *02:06:02) MR. a : -- that’s why I'm trying to explain to you -- MS. QJ: «9 (Indiscernible *02:06:04). MR. QJ: -- like, EJ said that she knew that they weren’t. That’s why she wrote the memo to the captain, and that’s why - EFTA00110135

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 w ~] wo 10 11 MR. a : -- on the 10th, when she found out that the cameras were still down, she confronted Daniel and said, you were supposed to fix this, why didn't you fix the cameras? MR. a : So, those two things is what I'm trying to -. I’ve been trying to vk. i: -- 3 is because that is why she wrote the memo to that she did know, 7] the captain, and that is why she confronted Daniel on the 10th, saying why didn't you fix this? MS. Ha: And my response then would be: maybe she thought - and I'm not, I don’t even want to -. I don't know. Maybe -- MR. QJ: nd she didn't point the MS. a: -- (Indiscernible *02:06:42). MR. a : -- she didn't point the finger at you in the slightest. I'm not even trying to insinuate that. EFTA00110136

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : I'm saying, because you are the AW in charge of -- MS. QM: Yeah. MR. a : -- you know, this situation, what should have happened? And this MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : -- and again, isn’ta gotcha. I'm asking you -- MR. a : -- as a genuine question. Like, you’re the boss. What should have they done? MS. i: Yeah. Someone should have specifically said the cameras are not recording. And I'm not going to say it’s | responsibility, but she reported it. If she reported it to her supervisor, she did what she was supposed to do. So, I'm going to kind of -. Like you said, I'm going to try to come back and be, like, really assess it. If she reported it to her supervisor, that’s her responsibility. That’s what she did. But from there, it - EFTA00110137

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I wish | had said to me, hey, I received this memo from J, saying that the cameras are not working. And that I spoke with Daniel, and the cameras are not working, they are not recording. And that is something that I could have definitely said, okay, Daniel, you have to do overtime, in the absence of your supervisor, I am authorizing you to do overtime, to then fix the cameras, and then, when something like that happens, obviously, you know you have to make security related decisions. Then you could have recalled all the inmates, so that if there is any incidents that happened, at least the inmates are confined to their cells. And then, you say, well, there is no cameras inside of the cells. But you make rounds. You have to make rounds in Special Housing anyway. You know? So, you wouldn't be able to capture what’s happening inside of the cell itself. But you would have a general idea about, you know, with the cameras, what’s going on. But there would have been decisions that would have been made, to ensure security. But EFTA00110138

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) lo o there should have been notification, and clarification, and specificity about - specificity - about actually what was the MR. a : Okay. So, in your opinion, though, it’s | should have reported it to a. | should have made the appropriate - like, this is, I'm not saying that this did or didn't happen. I'm just saying, under, from what you know -- MR. a : -- | should have told a. ) should have made whatever appropriate, you know -- MS. i: He should have told -- MR. Ee : -- taken whatever actions needed to be taken. MS. a: -- he should have -. Yeah. Then, if I was his supervisor, then he should have told me. MR. a : Okay. And again, it sounds like this is how - you already answered, but to be clear - you knew there was a problem with that one specific incident, trying to rewind, but you had no idea what the problem EFTA00110139

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 was. You just knew you weren’t able to rewind. MS. Ha: And - yeah - if you simplify it. Yeah. MR. a : Right. So, you didn't know that the -- MS. i: Mm-hmm. MR. a : -- point being, you didn't know the cameras were down. Ms. MM: Yeah. MR. a : You didn't know that they were not recording. MS. a: Exactly. MR. a : Great. So, were you aware that MCC cameras were scheduled to be replaced? MS. Ha: Hmm. No. I didn't know that they were scheduled to be replaced. I know - again - there is information that you -. I don’t know if they were scheduled to be replaced. I know that they have been, they were upgraded after. And then, I know there was certain projects. But I don’t -. I, again, I don't know what I -. That, if they were scheduled to be replaced at the time of the incident. EFTA00110140

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) MR. Ee : So, I guess what I'm saying is, do you know if they were, you had new cameras on site at the MCC, and there was currently a camera project underway, of replacing the old cameras? Did you know that? MS. QM: No. Not at the time. MR. a : So, based on the work orders and email communications that we received -- MR. a : -- the MCC ordered new DI and other system parts, and had camera fo ' them delivered to the MCC in approximately October of 2018. MR. a : These were the cameras that were installed immediately after Epstein’s \o death in August of 201 MR. ae : Did you know that to be MS. a: I know that there were cameras that were installed after, and afterward, but EFTA00110141

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 w ~] wo 10 11 ive) again, I don’t know when those cameras arrived because I didn't work there in 2018. MR. a : Sure. Sure. saying, though, is -- MR. a : -- did you know that those cameras were on site, and they were, you know -- MR. a : -- you didn't even know MS. Ha: No. There’s a lot of things that have, obviously that folks have knowledge of after the fact because of the incident, and there have been actions after, but there was no, I was not knowledgeable about cameras being on site, and about the installation prior to. MR. QJ: | nd just to be clear. So, Nobile, you know, the facilities manager -- MR. a : -- you know, Warden N'Diaye, and, you know, Daniel, they have all said, yup, this is accurate. So, the follow up EFTA00110142

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on that is, when should the new camera system, that was already on site at the MCC, have been installed? Do you have even a -? Or do you just not have knowledge on that because you weren’t there at the time? MS. a: Yeah. So, I don’t have knowledge of that. MR. QJ: Okay. =Do you know who would have been ultimately responsible for ensuring -? Because it sounds - and again, you weren’t there at the time, but there was a lot of problems, the same problem happened time and time again, at the MCC, where these cameras would -. Two hard drives would crash, and then take out the system. And then, Daniel would have to go and rebuild the system, and it was, like, a 24 hour process to rebuild it. MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. QM: | Who should have made sure that new camera system was installed? That was on site. Who should have, like, said, like, this is an urgent matter? And I am assuming it was. Was that an urgent matter, if the cameras are down? MS. a: Mm-hmm. Yeah. EFTA00110143

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : And they are not recording? I would think that that’s a pretty big deal. Correct? MS. i: Mm-hmm. Correct. MR. a : So, who should have made sure that that new system was installed? That had been on site, all the way back to October 2018. MS. i: It’s multi-layered. And when it’s a multi -. This is multi-layered. Because if you are saying that, who actually does the work for the installation, or who the primary person is the electronics technician. But ultimately, they have a supervisor, and that supervisor tracks the completion of projects. The progress of projects. So, it’s - that’s what I'm saying - it’s multi-layered. That, and if the cameras were present, I don’t know what would have happened to make them not be installed. MR. a : And just for more -- MS. MMMM: 9 (indiscernible *02:13:50) MR. a : -- information, the reason why they were on site, the reason why you guys were able to get your cameras EFTA00110144

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 immediately back up and running, with a whole new system, was because they were already on site. So, knowing that information, what is your thought on the matter? Like, the fact, now that you are hearing, and again, this is, I'm looking at you as a subject matter expert. I am not looking for any type -. I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just looking at you as you are a boss there. You are in charge of custody. So, I am just kind of giving you this information, so you can give me your professional feedback. So, the fact that they were able to immediately install this, have SigNet come in, who was the contracted company, and install these new cameras that had been on site since October of 2018 -- Ms. QJ: vm-hom. MR. Ee : -- what is your opinion on that? Ms. EE: enn. MR. a : Do you think that they were, you know, the MCC, or, you know, really dropped the ball with having this faulty camera system, and actually having the parts that they EFTA00110145

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 needed on site, to be able to be replaced? MS. Ha: I'm careful with saying about this, who dropped the ball. I know if you know that there is cameras present. And there is no logical reason why the cameras can't be installed. And if it is your department that is responsible for installing the cameras, then you should ultimately ensure that the cameras are installed. And -. MR. a : Now, should - would it fall on the facilities manager to make sure that that’s happening? MS. Ha: The Comtech works for the facility manager. So, the facility manager is responsible for the department that that staff member works in. MS. a: You know? MR. Ee : -- according to Daniel, he said that his job was basically to fix it. His job, you know, fix things when they’re broken. And he had been screaming that there was a problem with these camera systems for a long time, and he’s basically the reason why they got the new cameras, but he said, you EFTA00110146

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 know, it wasn’t his job to get SigNet there, to 2 be able to actually get these installed. 3 You know, so, that is where, to me, 4 hearing that explanation, it sounds like oh, 5 well, it’s really probably the facilities 6 manager that is, you know, supposed to manage 7 that task, and make sure that they get in 8 there. But I don’t -. I want to make sure 9 that that would be an accurate, you know, 10 assessment, or if I'm off. 11 MS. Ha: Now, would have -. I don't know 12 if, like you said, if it’s the facility manager 13 that actually calls SigNet, or if it is the 14 Comtech that would call and coordinate SigNet’s 15 visit. It’s between the two. 16 MR. Ee : So, you believe they 17 have, both have part responsible --- 18 ms. QE: 20 MS. 22 this 23 Ms. QE: 24 MR. Mm-hmm. -- you know -- -- their part exposure to And anything -- EFTA00110147

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 MR. Ee : -- anyone outside of the 2 facilities manager? I mean, did this go up to 3 the executive, you know, level, to the captain, 4 AWs, or warden? wi 7) If they were aware that the 6 cameras were there, and that the cameras should have been i alled. Now, and that’s what I'm 8 saying, I don’t know if, who knew that the wo cameras were there. 10 MR. a : Yeah. I certainly, 11 the warden did. 2 Or that -- ive) Fs) But -. 4 MS. a: -- that it shipped. Mm-hmm. 5 MR. QJ: so, if the -- Mm-hmm, 7 MR. ae : -- warden knew that, is that something you think that he has exposure t oO 77) co 9 to, then, as well? 20 MS. QM: umm. Oh my gosh. If - again, 21 without knowing who knew what, I don’t, I don't 22 know who -. This is -. Yeah. No No wi bs DB > o oO ty =) o ct > fu ct if) fine. EFTA00110148

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 w ~] wo 10 11 And point being, though, you didn't know that the cameras were even there. It sounds like you are saying? MS. i: I would have no knowledge to know about the cameras were there, because this all happened prior to me. MR. QM: Right. No. saying -- I'm just MS. i: (Indiscernible *02:17:39). MR. a : -- like, you know, you were -- MS. a: Yeah. No. MR. a : -- you were -- MR. a : -- you were, I know it was only a month and a half, but you were there, leading up to this point. I just didn't know if that was a conversation that would be happening within executive staff meetings, that, hey, this is where we are on the camera project. You know, and -- Ms. QM: well, now -- MR. a : -- we'll be -. MS. a: -- conversations about the camera project, and again, I'm going to EFTA00110149

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 reiterate what I’ve kind of said before, because of this incident, there have been discussions about things that happened within this incident, but that’s after the fact. MR. a : And so, prior -- MS. a: -- you're asking -- MR. a : -- prior to August 10th, that you weren’t involved in the conversations at all with the camera project? MS. Ha: I do not recall anything specifically about discussing about camera project. MR. a : Great. MS. Ha: Now, if you can, if you can show me something, or anything to that effect, then I can say, okay, yes. MR. ae : No, no, no, and again, this is not an I gotcha interview. This is just to ask -- MS. FRM: No. I know. MR. a : -- you know -. MS. a: I know. But I'm being forthcoming, so that’s why I'm trying to tell you. In your investigation, I know you are aware, you’ve had conversations with folks that EFTA00110150

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 are giving you information, but this is 2 information after the fact. MR. a : Right. And then -- ies) 5 MR. a : -- and point being is you 6 don’t recall anything prior to, about -- 8 MR. a : -- a camera project. You 9 are not -. You weren’t aware that there was a 10 - at least at this moment in time - you don’t 11 recall there ever being a camera project 2 leading up to the incident? 3 MS. aa: I do not recall. Hmm-mn. 15 Ms. MMM: «i did -. Yeah. I don’t 16 recall. Mm-hmn. 7 MR. ae : Okay. So, now, we are 8 going to touch on cell assignments. Then we’re 9 going to just try to fly through the rest, 20 because that was the primary things I wanted to 21 talk to you about, were the cameras and i. 23 MR. a : So, these are more just 24 to touch on some things. 25 MS. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. EFTA00110151

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 w ~] MR. Ee : Now, are you aware that, on August 9th and 10th, 2019, Epstein was not in his assigned cell, as documented within the BOP cell assignment history, and the BOP database? MS. a: Can you say that one more time? I'm sorry. MR. a : So, were you aware, are you aware of anything with a cell discrepancy, with Epstein, that he was, he was physically in a cell that didn’t correspond with the BOP system? MS. Ha: Yes. And this information after, after the fact. MR. a : And do you know why Epstein wasn’t in his assigned cell, according to the BOP database? MS. a: Sheer error. MR. Ee : And do you know who made MS. ia: Not - no - not specifically. I don't know who made the error. MR. a : So, what do you know about it? Ms. MJ: 1 know that there were keying EFTA00110152

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 errors. And so, Sentry reflected one cell 2 assignment, but he was physically in another 3 cell. 4 MR. a : And do you -? So, he was 5 in that cell from the time he, you know, 6 assigned to that cell in Sentry, from July ~] 30th, all the way to August 10th. 8 MS. a: Mm-hmm. a : So, being that he was 10 there for, you know, ten or 11 days -- 11 MS. QR: 9 Mm-hmn. 2 MR. a : -- should that have been 3 caught in that period of time? 4 MS. BR: Yes. 15 MR. QM: nd who should hav wo 4 a 16 caught that? 7 MS. a: The folks that are doing the 8 rounds. 9 MR. Ee : So, is that, that falls 20 onto the SHU staff? 21 MS. a: If - yeah - if it happened in 22 GP, it would have fallen on the person that is 23 actually doing the rounds in GP. So, yes. Mm- 24 hmm 25 MR. a : Okay. And then, would EFTA00110153

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 any lieutenants, whether it be the SHU lieutenant, or the captain, or, you know, ops, activities lieutenant, should any of them caught this? MS. Ha: Well, they would have only know that if they actually looked at a roster, and physically walked with a roster, to know which cell he was in. But I'm thinking about the 292s, whether or not it would have the cell on it. I'm not sure if the 292 -. Do you know what I'm talking about when I say 292? MR. a : Yeah. His file that is kept in the housing unit. MS. FM: Does it have this -? I'm not even sure if it has the cell number on it. But the long and short of it, you are making rounds, you’re pulling the inmate in and out of his cell, you’re keying, because -- MR. QJ: Now, are you talking about bed book count, or are you talking about, like, actual rounds? MS. a: No. You’re making rounds. Not a bed count. If you actually did it, if a bed book was done, between those days, then whoever did the bed book would most definitely know EFTA00110154

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that there was an error. Because you have to have the roster with you. But without, if a -. I don't know if a bed book was count during that time. I know that the counts were done after the fact. MR. a : And is there a -- MS. Ha: (Indiscernible *02:22:36). MR. a : -- requirement to do, like, a bed book count, like once a week, or any certain amount of days, or -? MS. Ha: There is no, there is no requirement that says a bed book count has to be done once a week. That was -. There was some procedures put in place after the fact. MR. a : Okay. And is, and how do we determine if a bed book count was in fact conducted? MS. a: Without there being some documentation, or to say, or, because I know after the fact, like I said, when that was a procedure put in place, it was indicated that that should be documented in the log. MR. a : But that was an after the fact thing? So, it wasn’t -- MS. a: After. EFTA00110155

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- being documented prior MS. a: No. It wasn’t. It wasn’t done prior to. Now, if you are making, TruScope, the officers have a log that they do. Any activity is part of whatever is going on in your unit. That should have -. That could have been logged. But is there a requirement that said that you have to log that, that you did the bed book count? You would be doing it, you know, for documentation purposes. But a lieutenant or a staff member can do a bed book count, just to make sure that things are done accurate. So, that’s not -. It’s not something that was a requirement prior to. MR. a : Okay. So -- Ms. QJ: Mm-hmn. MR. a : -- aside from the bed book count, though, is there any other way, though, and you said when they were conducting rounds. I mean, when a staff member is conducting rounds, are they supposed to be walking around with the, you know, Sentry report, or BOP roster, or whatever it is, the housing roster that indicates what cell he is EFTA00110156

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 assigned to in the system? MS. Ha: No. They don’t have to have the roster. However, once the inmate is introduced into SHU, typically, the OIC does a lot of the data entry. So, someone, even if it’s not the OIC, if someone in SHU, if someone is doing the data entry, they are the ones that is physically recording where the inmates is. No one else would know where that inmate was assigned unless they actually go in the system and do the Sentry assignment. So -- MR. a : Okay. MS. Ha: -- the person that is saying, okay, if I am saying put inmate X, Y, and I in cell ten, I have to change him from wherever he was before, and make sure that I update, I update it. And not only that, there is a physical board in SHU that you have the cards. You have name tags or whatever. And it shows where everyone is. MR. a : And does it say where they are based upon them writing it down from knowing that they are in there, or is that showing where they are based upon what the BOP system says? EFTA00110157

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. a: From knowing where - from knowing where they are. MR. a : Okay. MS. i: So, the system, and everything should be the same. So, if I'm changing, if I'm changing an inmate’s Sentry assignment, then I know I - I automatically know there is not just one thing I have to do, there is a couple of things I have to do. MR. a : Mm-hmm. MS. Ha: I have to physically move the body from one place to another. MR. a : Okay. MS. QM: =I have to put the card, you know, the card off of one door, put it on the new door, and I know I have to update Sentry because Sentry should be accurate. I physically have to do a PP - I can't remember - 34, and then update the Sentry assignment. And then, I should physically update the board, so, the door and the board would have cards on them, or, you know -- MR. a : And this is where, so, I know what happened. I know what happened when this all happened on the 30th. On the - I know EFTA00110158

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 what happened, how it was done, where the discrepancy came in place. So, I guess my question, though, is: between - and so, I know that the person who dropped, you know, basically dropped the ball by not making the correct entry on the 30th, but the fact that from the 30th all the way to the 10th -- MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : -- this, you know, discrepancy continued, my question to you is, is there any point, aside from when he was physically placed in the wrong cell, and the key entry wasn’t, you know, updated, or not in the wrong cell, but they key entry wasn’t updated. Was there any way that that would have been caught in those approximately ten days? After that initial mistake happened. So, like, an audit of the system -- MR. Ee : Yeah. MS. Ha: -- or, like, hey, let’s, you know, aside from a bed book count, how do we know that these inmates are actually in the cells that they are supposed to be assigned, you know, or they are in the cells that they are assigned in, in the system? Is there a EFTA00110159

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 checks and balance to that? Are they -? Is there -? Is the staff supposed to be checking those sheets, or is it -? Is there an audit that is done by the lieutenant or the OIC? MS. Ha: I wouldn't say that there is an audit done, but you -. That’s (Indiscernible *02:27:56). That’s the 30 (Indiscernible *02:27:58), ten. That -. There is not a specific audit that is done on a daily basis. There is not an audit that is done besides, like I said, you making rounds -- MR. a : Mm-hmm. MS. Ha: -- and you -. Yeah. I can't think of a specific, like you said, a procedure in place that you would check, where you would audit on a daily basis, besides if you were actually required to do a bed book count. Which, she was not required to do a bed book count daily. MR. a : Right. And at the time, they weren’t required to do them at all? MS. a: There was no procedure - and when you say they were not required - there is times when -- MR. a: I mean, based upon a time EFTA00110160

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 period. 2 MS. a: -- yeah. 3 MR. a : versus, like, a, you 4 know, an incorrect count. 5 MS. aa: Yeah. Not that I am - not that 6 I am aware of. 7 MR. a : Okay. Now, just to touch 8 on cell searches. On August 9th and 10th, 9 2019, do you know how often the SHU staff were 10 supposed to conduct cell searches? 11 MS. a: Oh, you are supposed to do cell 2 searches daily ive) Fs) Okay. And is it, like, 4 supposed to be at least five per shift -- c w 3 i} o =| 5 16 MR. Ee : -- aside from the morning? 8 MS. aa: It’s five. 20 MS. MM: Yeah. Yeah. And then, you 21 annotate it in, I believe it’s TruScope, so 22 that you are ensuring, and that kind of, it 23 tracks, so that there is a, so that you can 24 ensure that all of the cells have been done. it 25 MR. QJ: okay. So, i if) EFTA00110161

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 acceptable that only one cell was entered as being searched in TruScope, on August 9th, 2019? MS. i: No. You should do at least five. MR. a : Now, do you believe that if only one was entered, does that mean only one was actually conducted? MS. i: Hmm. I wouldn't say that. But because I don’t -. Hmm. That would be -. I would question why one was only entered. But you should do five. And you should recall, record all five. MR. QJ: Now, being, you know, day and night watch -- MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. ae : -- are required to do five, who is responsible for, one) conducting them; and two) entering them into TruScope? Is it the OIC that is ultimately responsible to make sure that they are done, and then enter them, or is it, there is no rhyme or reason to who is actually responsible? Everybody is -- MS. a: I wouldn't -- MR. a: -- responsible. EFTA00110162

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. a: -- no. I wouldn't say who, because the folks that actually do the, that do the rounds, they are physically, you know, doing the manual labor. And typically, the SHU OIC, because there is not, like, five computers up in SHU. There may be one or two computers in SHU. And typically, the OIC is the one that is logged in. And that person is doing all the administrative work. So, they would ensure that, okay, rounds are done. And if there were bar taps, or like you said, if there were cell searches done, that information is then communicated from one officer to the OIC, and then that person goes in and records that it’s done. MR. a : Okay. Do you know anything about Epstein placing a telephone call on August 9th, 2019, from the SHU? MS. Ha: You said from August 9th? MR. a : August 9th, 2019. Do you know anything about Epstein placing -- Ms. BR: 1 -- MR. a : -- a telephone call from MS. a: -- again -- EFTA00110163

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ~] wo 10 11 is) Ww MR. QJ: | -- the suv? MS. Ha: -- I know, I know information after the fact. Just like everybody else. But the day that it happened, no, I wasn’t aware of the phone call the day that it happened. I know information after the fact. MR. a : Okay. And what did you learn after the fact? And just briefly. MS. i: Mm-hmm. That there was a staff member that allowed him to place a phone call. MR. Ee : Did you learn that it wa a phone call on an unrecorded line? i] MS. i: Yes. That is a yes. MR. Ee : Okay. And then, do you - is that standard practice, to allow inmates to make personal calls, as had been done, from an unrecorded line? MS. RM: No. That is practice, and the phone call should be on the i] s ° rr n rr fu 5 oF vv) a 2 ITS - the Inmate Telephone System - line. MR. a : Now, if he didn't have his pack and PIN set up -- Ms. QM: 0h, yeah. EFTA00110164

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- or PIN and pack, or however, which way you say it, what, what could have or should have happened, if you wanted to allow someone to take a - make a telephone call? MS. a: They don’t make a phone call. MR. es : They just don’t make one? MS. QJ: They don’t make one. There is allowances for, like, the (Indiscernible *02:32:44) phone calls. That would be done by the Chaplin, but that, too, is on a recorded line. And that is in the Chaplin area. The other thing is a legal phone call, and that would be on an unmonitored line. But that would only be for legal purposes. MR. a : Now, is it true, though, if it was allowed to be done on a legal line, if it was authorized by, you know, the captain or whomever, or the case manager, unit manager, should it be put on speaker phone, and monitored by a staff member? MS. a: Policy says - I don't know - but policy says that the inmates should make phone calls, and it should be through the ITS system. EFTA00110165

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. Ee : And do you -- 2 MS. a: But you -- 3 MR. a : -- is that -? 4 MS. a: -- but there is social calls 5 and legal calls. 6 MR. a : Phone calls and legal 7 calls - 8 MS a: Oh, no. I said there is social 9 calls and there is legal calls. 10 MR. QJ: okay. 11 MS. a: And the only phone call that 2 should be on an unmonitored line would be the 3 legal call. 4 MR. ae : Okay. So, you don’t, you 15 don’t believe there is any circumstance where, 16 if it is not a legal call, that a social call 7 should be made? 8 MS. aa: I know policy, what I know of 9 policy, it indicates social calls, which should 20 be via ITS. 21 MR. ae : And do you know if there 22 was any kind of recorded line in the SHU, that 23 could have been utilized if an inmate did not 24 have a pack and PIN? 25 Ms. EER: No. EFTA00110166

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 2 MS. a: Hmm-mm 3 MR a : There was no line. There 4 was no such line. Just a legal line? wi th n n No. I'm saying, there is an 6 ITs stem in SHU. 7 MR. a : No, no, no. What I'm 8 saying is -- © n (Indiscernible *02:34:31). 10 MR. a : -- if someone doesn't 11 have a pack and PIN, to be able to record it, do you know if there was another type of a N ive) k b- 5 i) like you said, I think you said the s aplin has a line that people can use, that 5 for bereavement purposes, but 16 recorded Is there a line that is Lee) 5 9 still recorded, that a staff member can provide 20 to an inmate that doesn't have the ability to 21 make a call from his pack and PIN? 22 Ms. FER: No. No ion) id Or -? a : And is that no, there is ho No w bd EFTA00110167

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 no line, or no, you are not aware? 2 MS. a: No, there is no line that you Ww ie] wu 5 3 i — oO a phone call from, that is recorded, 4 that is not hooked up to the ITS. Okay. And when you say - w 3) i: -- (Indiscernible 8 MR. QM: -- the ITs, what do ts) ct Ss mw r 3 oO fu o i=) a: Inmate Telephone 11 MR. QJ: and is that -- nN -- with reference to the ive) Fs) 4 receive to be able to 5 S and use -- 16 7 - or - Yes? 8 9 Okay. 20 That is a yes. 21 MR. ae : Okay. And what is your 22 understanding of what occurred in Epstein’s wo 23 cell on August 9th or 10th, 2019? 24 MS. aa: Well, what I am aware of, after the fact, is that he committed N wu Q ra im =] i EFTA00110168

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 suicide. 2 MR. a : Okay. So, you believe 3 that Epstein took his own life? 4 MS. a: Yes. He was the only one in 5 the cell 6 MR. a : And do you have any 7 information, with regard to anyone else taking 8 Epstein’s life? 9 Ms. BE: No. 10 MR. a : Had you heard anything 11 about Epstein’s cell door being left open the 2 night of August 93th, 2019, or 10th, or the 3 morning of August 10th -- 4 MS. BH: No. 15 MR. MJ: -- 2019? 16 MS. QM: This is the first -. If that happened, this would be the first time that I 8 have, of me even hearing that. I have never 9 heard that. 20 MR. QJ: nd have you heard of any 21 other cell mates in the SHU, in the SHU, with 22 their doors being left open the night of August 23 9th, 2019, or the morning of August 10th -- 24 Ms. FE: No. 25 MR : -- 2019? EFTA00110169

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] ive) oy \o MS. Ha: No. I have never heard that. MR. a : No? And do you know if - MS. i: Never heard that. MR. a : -- do you know any information, with regard to anyone harming Epstein on August 9th or 10th, 2019? MS. GE: No. MR. a : Okay. Do you know anything about Epstein changing his will just prior to his death? MS. a: Again, that’s just in the news, but no, I don’t have any knowledge of that. MR. ae : So, only from what you’ve heard in the news? & 17) K feah. I don’t have any knowledge of that. We don’t -. The BOP has nothing to do with inmates’ wills. MR. Ee : Okay. So, and we’re just going to now wrap up. It’s just specific to the timeline. There was an after action report that was created by the BOP. So, this is n specifically where I am getting this information, but -- Ms. QE: = vm-hmn. EFTA00110170

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. a : -- I'm just going to ask you just a couple more questions, then we will be done. MS. i: Okay. MR. a : It says, “6:33 a.m., on August 10th, 2019, a body alarm is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU staff reported inmate Epstein was unresponsive in cell,” and it says the cell, but it says Sentry does not reflect this accurately. “Staff entered the cell and attempted to wake inmate Epstein. Control center announced a medical emergency, and CPR was initiated.” So, the information that we have is that 6:33, Thomas told Noel, call in the emergency, and Thomas went straight into the cell. Did Thomas act appropriately by going straight into the cell, or should he have waited for someone to arrive? MS. QM: No. There is -. Well, it depends if you feel like you - that is an emergency, and it is a life or death situation. I don't know if he had the -. He could have gone into -. He could have gone into the cell. MR. a : Okay. So, policy doesn't dictate that you are supposed to wait for other EFTA00110171

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 171 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 people to arrive, so that if it was a -- MS. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : -- a ruse, that someone could have overpowered him, and then taken -? MS. Ha: There is no -. When you say policy, policy does state that you have to be safe, and that you should wait for another staff to arrive. Policy does say that. If Thomas felt that he had enough staff on hand, I don't know if he felt that, but policy does say to ensure. And especially if you have more than one inmate in a cell. So, with, I guess Thomas realized there was only one inmate in the cell, and if he saw the inmate hanging, he would probably want to act immediately. But policy protects you either way. If you feel that you have enough, because - and that’s your - that’s what I said - that’s your discernment. If you feel that you have enough people on, you know, available, maybe he felt that way. MR. a : Okay. And then, it says, “At 7:36 a.m., inmate Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room physician.” Do you know of anything about -? Do you know if Epstein ever shown signs of life, prior to leaving the EFTA00110172

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mcc, or specifically from 6:33 a.m. to 7:36 a.m., do you know if he showed any kind of signs of movement or life? MS. i: No. I don’t. I arrived after. And I have never heard of anything to the contrary that he exhibited life. MR. es : Okay. And here is another thing that was written in there, in the BOP, and again, this is the BOP after-action report. It says, “SHU has multiple cells equipped with video recording capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in one of these cells, and there appears to be no set guidance on when to utilize these cells.” So specifically, I am assuming he is, they are either talking about 10 South or possibly G- tier. I'm not sure. I can't remember if G- tier has cameras or not. But 10 South certainly does. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : Do you believe that Epstein should have been placed in one of those cells that were, that had cameras in them? MS. a: I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that he should have been EFTA00110173

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 placed in a cell with a camera. He was an -. He is an inmate, just like another inmate. So, I can't, I can't say that, that he should have definitely been placed in acell. There obviously was a reason that they felt that he was safe, since he didn't say that he was going to -. I don’t -. Yeah. I can't say that he should have definitely been placed in a cell with a camera. MR. a : Okay. MS. Ha: Because those cells are for the SAMs inmates. Those inmates that can't, you know, their communication has to be monitored. So, that is a different vetting process. MR. a : Okay. MS. a: Mm-hmm. MR. ee: And do you -. These are going to be the last, like, three or four questions. Oh. What do you believe allowed Epstein to be able to - if he took his own life - what do you believe allowed Epstein to take his own life? MS. Ha: Well, there were, I think his, if that’s what he wanted to do, without - because the -. Now, we do know that staff EFTA00110174

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 members have to make rounds. They’re going to, every, I don't know, 30 minutes, a regular round. But he could have done it right before, or right after the round. So, it doesn't mean that he still - at the end - still wouldn't have happened. So, I can't say for certain that, we still would not have had the same outcome. So, I can't -. I know there was some things that staff did not do that they were supposed to do. Had they still made their rounds, there is a possibility that a death could have still have occurred, because there are instances where staff make their rounds, and inmates still are able to successfully complete suicide, unfortunately. So, in this instance, staff - we all, again, know - staff did not do what they were, you know, supposed to do by policy, but I can't say with certainty that he still would not have been able to successfully complete suicide. MR. Ee : So, it sounds like rounds would have helped. What about having a cellmate? Do you think that would have helped? MS. Ha: Yes. A cellmate would have EFTA00110175

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been able to alert a staff member, that is, if they were alert and oriented themselves. MR. QM: Yeah. =I would think, though, if a cellmate was in there, and they Saw someone hanging themselves, you know, obviously, there would be no requirement, I guess, for them to do it, but that would certainly indicate to that person that they probably, there was an issue. Right? MS. Ha: Yeah. But when you say that, when you say that, it depends on, see, if the manner in which he committed suicide, he did it because he was in there by himself. Yes. MR. QJ: Right. MS. i: But there is instances where you have cellmates, if you are on, you could have - an inmate could have tied a ligature around his neck, if he was in his bed, and just hung himself that way. So, again, there are things that were not done on line with policy, but I can't say for certain because we have, we do have successful suicides, where staff do follow procedure and follow policy. MR. a : But in this case, I guess, you know, you know, correct me if I'm EFTA00110176

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wrong, but I would think that the two most glaring things were the fact that he was required to have a cellmate, and he didn't; and that, also, staff were not conducting rounds as they were required. Would you agree with that assessment? MS. Ha: Yeah. We know that those things did not happen. MR. a : And do you believe anything else, you know, basically, if we are looking at what all, you know, what could have helped prevent this from happening in the future? If we are looking at it as, you know, like, well, what can we do better next time? Aside from making sure, you know, cellmates that are required to have cellmates have them, and then, aside from making sure that staff are actually conducting their rounds and counts, is there anything else that should have been done? MS. Ha: Just -- MR. a : It sounds like you didn't agree with putting him in a cell with a camera. So, I'm just wondering if there is anything else that -- MS. a: No. I'm not saying necessarily EFTA00110177

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I agree or disagree. I'm saying that there is inmates that are in cells without cameras, and they don’t necessarily commit suicide. So, what was the difference? Why did Epstein have to be in a cell with a camera? So, I'm saying, we don’t -. That’s not part of our policy, that cameras have to be present. So, that is not the -. That does -. That in and of itself doesn't determine or make a difference whether someone commits suicide or doesn't. MS. a: Like, that’s not a requirement. MR. a : So, I guess the - and I probably got you off on track, on the camera thing - I'm just saying, is there anything else we are missing here, aside from, you know, what we just discussed, as far as reasons that allowed for Epstein to be able to take his life? MR. QR: 90. MS. a: I don't know. MR. a : Okay. What do you believe the failures of the BOP - if you believe there are any - that allowed for EFTA00110178

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Epstein to die? Ms. MR: =I don’t believe that the BOP is responsible for him committing suicide. I believe that, as you investigate, that there are things that - no, none with the policy, but I don’t believe that that contributed to the suicide itself. Because, like I said, I know we are looking at it after, like, Monday morning quarterbacking, but there are, there are some instances where there is a successful suicide, where does not follow protocol from top to bottom. And it happens, unfortunately. And in this instance, they didn't do everything that they were supposed to do, or they didn't do a lot, but I don’t believe that it contributed to him committing suicide. I don’t. I don’t really believe that. MR. a : So, you don’t believe - and we didn't get into staff members sleeping - but you don’t believe that a staff member not conducting rounds, a staff member sleeping on the job, a staff members not, you know, making proper notifications and getting a new cellmate into them, you don’t believe that that is contributed to him taking his own life? EFTA00110179

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 uw ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 ~) wo MS. Ha: I'm -- MR. : The ability to do that? MS. a: -- hmm. Because when you are saying staff members sleeping, yeah, if, even if a staff member is awake, and that I'm saying that because I'm aware of a successful suicide, staff members can make their rounds every 30 minutes. And when they go by, unfortunately, if someone actually is intent on committing suicide, they can wait for you to make your round, and they know that you don’t have to come back until another 30 minutes. MR. a : Sure. And I didn't say that staff members -- Ms. QM: 9 (indiscernible *02:47:32). MR. Ee : -- caused him to die. What I said is, helped contribute, and allowed for him -- MS. QJ: 9 Yeah. MR. QJ: -- to take his life. So, what I'm saying is, like, the job -- MS. a: Okay. MR. a : -- performance that wasn’t done, and that’s why this investigation pertains to security failure and job EFTA00110180

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 performance failure, because it seems to me that there was a lot of job performance failure here, at the very least, in the sense that people weren’t doing their jobs. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : And that, that helped cause, you know, and again, I think you mentioned it, if a person wants to kill themselves, they’re probably going to be able to find a way. But there is also things that, when an inmate is in our custody, it is our job to try to do everything we can to keep them alive, and prevent that from happening. MS. QE: 9 Mm-hmn. MR. a : So, my question to you is, you don’t believe that, by though, you know, them not doing those things, that that helped contribute? MS. Ha: And I know this might sound - but you sound bewildered by my response, but I believe that it contributed to some failures, but I don’t really believe that the failure equals the contribution of the suicide. I really don’t believe that. MR. a: Okay. Yeah. I don't EFTA00110181

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 w ~] know that I look at it as a contribution. I'm just saying, the failures that allowed for him to be able to take his own life. And so, again, I'm not saying that they helped assist him with taking his life, but by not doing -- MS. QR: 9 Mm-hm. MR. a : -- their job, that, you know, provided him ample opportunity to do so. Would you agree with that? MS. Ha: Again, I'm going to - my thing is going to be the same. MR. a : Okay. No. You’re just the first person I’ve talked to that said that. MS. QB: Yeah. MR. a : Okay. That’s totally fine. Okay. Well, is there anything else that I missed, or that you would like to add to this? MS. Ha: Hmm-mm. No. MR. QJ: anc GL, are you still there? Is there any follow up questions that you have, before we end this thing? MR. a : No follow up questions. MR. a : All right. Great. Well, you have my information. My cell phone. My EFTA00110182

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 email. MS. Ha: Mm-hmm. MR. a : If there is anything you need, please feel free to contact me. But otherwise, I would very much greatly appreciate if you get me that stuff we talked about, specific with regard to the documents that you MS. i: Okay. MR. a : -- that you kept on file, and I think you took - there was something else that we discussed. What was the other thing? Was it -? MS. MM: you said it was about the bad (Indiscernible *02:49:59). I made some notes about the bad count. And then, about the court document. MR. a : Perfect. Yeah. So, there would be those specific things. But again, anything -? I think you said you made records of things that you produced, that would be very much appreciated, as well. MS. Ha: Yeah. MR. a : It is 1:24 p.m. on December 2nd, 2021. This is Senior Special EFTA00110183

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Agent | a. and I am going to turn off this recorder. MS. a: Okay. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and back on the record). MR. a : This is Senior Special Agent | a . It is currently 1:26 p.m., 12/02/2021. Prior to hanging up the call, Associate Warden | | asked if I could turn back on the recorder so she could make a clarifying statement. So, Ms. ia. go ahead. I’1l just remind you, you are under oath, and this is a voluntary interview. MS. QM: I wanted to clarify whether I filled that, some of the things helped, I guess helped to, or contributed to, Epstein’s ability to commit suicide. While I understand that this is something that no one wanted, there were things that were not done, that were in line with policy. That were required to be done, and had those things been done, maybe we would not be questioning the liability aspect. But I just want to ensure that it’s understood that I have - I believe that that’s should follow policy, to ensure with certainty that no EFTA00110184

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 inmate is able to hurt themselves, or that no other inmate is able to hurt them. So, with that knowledge, again, I really hope that staff would have done everything within their power to follow policy, so that there would be no question as to what should or should not have been done. And with acknowledgement that there were not things done that should have been done, as it relates to following policy. MR. a : All right. Thank you very much. Is there anything else you wanted to add before I turn off the recorder and we end this interview? MS. BJ: No. I think that’s it. I just wanted to add that as a sentiment, that I understand that this is a serious matter, and that it required care and attention, and that it requires me to clarify what I believe actually, you know, the staff did or did not do. MR. a : Perfect. Thank you so much. Again, if there is anything you need from me, you have my email, and I will greatly look forward to the information you can provide EFTA00110185

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 following this interview. It is 1:28 p.m., 2 12/02/2021. This is Senior Special Agent 3 | a. and I am turning off the 4 recorder. 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 EFTA00110186

--=PAGE_BREAK=--

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 10 : 11 Brcaren (ese OCCT 12 Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00110187