APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF _THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT uD OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 4 recorded by me, Special Agent J. Could everyone please identify themselves for the record, and spell your last name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIC Special Agent, :_ Senior — : : I'm correctional lieutenant, 3 WR. QR: This is Special Agent J HB. Today is September 23, 2021. The time is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the interview. My name is a I'ma Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office, and these are my credentials. I see. MR. : This interview with the Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer lieutenant, MM. Did 1 say that right? RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP MR. : Thank you. This is an official D0J/OIG investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the D0J/OIG? RR ae ee ——a wr : Yes. MR. : Is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, DO) investigation. Today’s date is September 23rd, 2021. The time is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York City. Also present is DO) Senior Special Agent. . a: and these are my credentials. Thank you. MR. : This interview will be PRP RPP PPE a ee ee ee il oe UHM R co Thank you. MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form III-226/2. The form states, United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being mrre row mre wh a a ee ond We WN Ow nm => nm wa EFTA00064266

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rR CWO D SWwrNP 5 conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” The waiver states, "I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” Please read the form, and if you understand -- Okay. MR. : == Can you please sign where it says employee name, signature? Need a pen? Thank you. Move that out of the way. Thanks. WR. WE: Before starting the interview, I would like to place you under oath. [RENN can you please raise Sure. your right hand? | Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? Yes. Yes, sir. MR. : Thank you. Please let me know if you do not understand any questions, and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for you. address? MR. 7 Thank you. what is your date of birth? Okay. What is your current home MR. : What is your social security number? MR. MM: Yeah. (Indiscernible *00:03:03). Thank you. : Okay. a: I co you understand the form? a: Yes. Yes, sir. MR. : And you are signing the form also. Mn-hmm . Thank you. That’s it. Do my name? I'l] fill out the -- Okay. -- that part. No problem. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I can fill it out anyways. WR. QR: This is Agent QJ. I'm signing on the signature of the Office of Inspector General. MR. QM: | Thank you. And I am going to sign as the witness and put my name. 8 MR. QM: Thank you. And what is your current_cell phone number? | What is your highest level of education? College. Bachelors. Which college? : The MR. : And what was your -? That’s in New York? It's upstate New York. Yes. MR. : And what was your major in? I was in psychology, though I believe is liberal arts. MR. WM: What did you do prior to working for the BOP? a. I worked for the New York City Police Department as a school safety agent. MR. MBM: And when did you start working for the BOP? When did I start? MR. : Start. May 18, 2003. EFTA00064267

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 9 WR. MY: when did you graduate May of 2012. : Okay. Thank you. Do you have any No, sir. And you said in 2003, you started with the BOP? 11 : Yes. mt And when did you -? What was the -? When did you first start? : MDC Brooklyn. MR. : MDC Brooklyn? : Yes. MR. : And you started as a C.0.? : Yes. MR. : Okay. When did you graduate from BOP training? MR. —. You don’t remember the answer? MR. | MR. : It was probably shortly after you started, correct? questions. MR. So, what we're going to talk to you today about is Mr. -. Are you aware of who Jeffrey Epstein is? | Yes. MR. : And was he an inmate at the MCC? : Yes. MR. Were you familiar with him while he was housed here at the MCC? Yeah. I would say yes. MR. : Okay. Let's start off. Well, were you familiar with his first suicide attempt? WENN: Yes. I did the first investigation on that one. Yes. WR. QM: Did that approximately, did that happen approximately around July 23rd, 2019? : Yes. MR. : Can you tell us what happened? Based on your investigation and what you found. Based on my investigation, once I found out about the suicide attempt when PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 25 10 MR : Okay. . And when did you come to MCC? I came to MCC January 31st, 2011. WR. QM: | And have you been here since? :_ Yes. MR. : Okay. And have you been in the SIS Shop since then? :_ No. : Okay. I went into the SIS Shop in 2016? Yes. MR. And then, in 2019, were you a_lieutenant with the SIS Office? : Yes, . : Great. MR. : Okay. That's the basic background we cover to -- . : Yeah, no -- . : == on that. . : == you can go into the 12 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as well as his cellmate, to try to get both of their sides of the story. : Was —_ Yes. Mr. . : Okay. I spoke to Epstein in the R&D area. He was a little hesitant, at first, about speaking to me. He kept asking me who was I? You know, what was I interviewing him for? And I explained to him my position as the SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are met, and, you know, I questioned him about whose the alleged suicide attempt, and he said, I don’t remember what happened. I remember him telling me he went to get a drink of water, and all he remembered is he was on the floor. And the staff will come in and he wouldn't provide much of anything else. I did question him about Mr. [I You know, did you guys have any words with eac other? You know, we were just cellmates at the time. You know, when you went to get the drink of water, and he would -. Either he say he was laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00064268

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 13 You know? I asked him, you know, are you telling me the truth? Is there anything that you would like to volunteer? You know, did you intentionally try to harm yourself? And at times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. I don't know what happened. I just got a drink of water, and next thing you know, I was on the floor. Did you ask him if attempted to harm him? “And what did he say to ah he said no. MR : And he said J did not _-- Yes. -- try to harm him? He said he did not. Okay. Was there a noose found around his neck, at that point? Do you know? I think it was. I think it was. At the time. It was a rope, I want to say, or something to that effect. They had 15 after talking to him? Did you believe that he tried to take his own life? I kind of had mixed feelings about it because he was insistent on that he didn't try to take his own life. You know? Normally, a person will say, okay, this was going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during the investigation and conclusion, I can't say that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be honest with you. From the answers that I was getting back from him. MR. : But he stated himself that didn't try to kill him? : Yes. MR. : So, the only other option would have possibly been that he tried to commit suicide himself? Right. MR. : Okay. MR. : Or do you believe that inmate attempted to harm him? I don’t. Yeah. =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 14 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. I can't tell you that they found it around his neck because I can't remember. To be honest with you. MR. MR: © And how did the C.0.s become aware that he had possibly tried to commit suicide? To my knowledge, Mr. is who alerted the officers, by banging on the door. MR. WM: «And when the officers found him, did they find a noose around his neck? How did they find him, do you recall? a. I can't recall. I know that they found him on the floor. But I can't recall if it was around his neck. And Mr. Epstein stated that did not try to kill him. Yes. Except there was a noose. Yes. Did he mention if he made the noose himself or how the noose came about? : No. He didn’t. MR. : And what was your impression 16 So, was it inconclusive? It was pretty inconclusive. What is your feeling of what happened, though? Being a trained investigator. a. I don’t know if it was, you know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, was this, like, did he intentionally try to do something to get our attention? You know, then I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did is telling me the truth. You know, I really can't say what happened because you have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I asked about them interacting. Do they talk? And he’s, like, yes, we talk. You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We read books. He, you know? So, it wasn’t no reason for me to believe that Mr. [S, you know, tried to harm him because Epstein didn't give me that impression. WR. QM: | And was he placed on EFTA00064269

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP suicide watch as a result? Yes, MR. So then, wouldn’t you only be placed on suicide watch if the thought was that he was attempting to self-harm? If that was the thought made by the ps cholog department -- MR. : Okay. : == they would definitely place you on suicide watch. Even if you said it out of playing, they would place you on a suicide watch. MR. So, do you know how they made that determination that he would be placed on suicide watch? I don't know. : Okay. I don't know. But it wasn’t based upon your investigation? MR. : Was it actually your investigation concluded, which actually brought him off of suicide watch? : No. =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe 19 : == something to that effect. MR. : == he was in the SHU? I think that’s why he was in Do you recall how [mmm SHU at that time. vR. J: got chosen to be Epstein’s inmate? MR. MR. Cellmate. Cellmate. Sorry. Oh. Sorry. Actually, I don't. I don’t know how they put the two of them together. Normally, if it’s, you know, if we’re vetting cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you know, who do you think would be more suitable, but in Epstein’s case, nobody asked me. So, I don’t know how they became cellmates. MR. You don’t know if any decisions were made by the higher ups, in regards to him? Re CWO HM fWwrNP I don't know. MR. : Okay. And after this incident happened, was removed from the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from the cell? : No. I wouldn’t say that. Normally, they do their evaluation, the psychology department, and when I guess they determined that the inmates could return to the general population, then they will release them from the suicide watch. MR. Okay. So, the SIS determination of inconclusive doesn't actually play into if he’s on or off of suicide watch. I don’t think it did. I don’t think it did. MR. : Inmate been at the MCC for a long time? Yeah. He’s been at the MCC for quite some time. MR. Did he have any history of violence with any of the inmates? Not violence. He was more of a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with a cellphone at a time. MR. Is -- You know -- MR. : -- is that why -- Had he 20 I'm not sure which one were removed, or if they both was placed in different cells, with different cellmates. not sure. : Well, inmate Epstein was MR. MR. actually placed on suicide watch. Right. But I'm not sure if Mr. remained in that same cell. MR. Okay. But he was in the SHU after that meeting with him? Yes. MR. Were there any issues with him after that incident? : With? MR. : With . Not that I'm aware of. MR. Okay. And we asked about the suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate was - an incident like this happened, let’s skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- Okay. MR. : -- if an inmate was found with a noose, and there was a possibility of a suicide, what’s the normal procedure that I'm EFTA00064270

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 21 happens? What happens to the inmate? What does the MCC do with the inmate? If it was an incident where he was found, let’s say, while I was a lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove him from the cell, of course, immediately. Notify psychology of what occurred. At that point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, with an inmate companion watching him, but I would make sure, you know, we take all of his clothing, everything, and he would get nothing but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. WR. : And how long does that normal suicide watch last? It can vary. MR. : What's the shortest you've ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? Maybe a couple of days, but I can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or three. But maybe a couple of days. MR. Based on what we've found out, it looks like this attempt was on the 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from suicide watch and placed in psych observation. Right. 23 HE: 1 don't know. That would be the psychology department determination. WR. P| Okay. Did you - now, moving forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, that he was removed from psych observation, and he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall hearing why he was removed from psych observation -- : No MR. : -- and placed back in the SHU? No. . : Do you have any questions? MR. :_ Yeah. Just to go back, file back to So, I knew you - when asked - you said you weren't, you knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of a guy, but do you know of any instances where he actually did harm another inmate? : No. : No? No. Great. All right. Thank you. Anything else on PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 22 MR. MM: Do you think that was too early to remove him from suicide watch? I know this is -. What is the difference between psych op and suicide watch? a. It's the same area. Psych ops is, they just get their clothing back. they are still being watched. It's the same thing, But It’s the same thing. Yeah. They’re still being watched by an inmate companion. MR. Is there any other benefit to being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide watch versus psych observation - any benefits to being in psych ops? MR. : clothes. I mean -. UR. ; MR. ; Was it - if it was any other inmate - would they have given back his clothes that fast? Yeah. You have your You get your clothes. Your clothes. Nope. . You can go ahead. Mi : Now, let’s go to August 9th. ou working on August 9th, 2019? : I think I was off August 9th. MR. : Okay. Let me just -. Would you be -. Would your name be on the -? : Qn the roster? MR. : On the roster. Yeah. I would be on the roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left early August 9th. Or something. I can't remember. R. MB: «I'm going to provide you a M copy of August 9th -- > Okay. MR. : -- roster. MCC SHU roster. : Yes. MR. : If you can take a look at it and let me know if you were on schedule. No. I'm not on it. Okay. : Okay. And who -- Were EFTA00064271

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP MR. MR. | Oh, sorry. : -- where would that be listed? Sorry. WR. a. I thought you were going to -. I thought we were just talking about this. This next one. Did you hear anything - just going back, before we talk about the suicide watch, psychological observation room, we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone contacting the MCC and requesting that he be removed from psychological observation? :_No. ce No? And you didn't hear that, like, for instance, his attorneys were trying to get him off of psychological observation, so that they could continue with their attorney/client visits? No. I didn't hear. You never heard that? =— ROW OHMS fwrNP RRR RRR SDS WwPR RR ‘© Co No. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we can move to the actual -. MR. So, I showed you the August 9th roster. You said you are not on there? CanI-. Actually -- mm nd MmeMmnNr Ww = Wh 27 being in SIS? Actually, the SIS Technician, her days off is Friday and Saturday. MR. Oh, wow. : And at the time, it was only two of us working in the whole area. MR. a. So, there was only one tech and lieutenant? : One tech and one lieutenant. MR. : Would the SIA have been on? "BBB; We didn't have one at the time. wR. QM: 0h, so it was literally just the two of you? : Yes. MR. : Okay. So, this wasn’t, then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was working? : No. MR, ; *00:19:28). Re CWO HM fWwrNP I normally -- (Indiscernible -- on a Friday, I would have been on because she would have been off. So, I took off -- 26 ne Where -? : -+ I would be under the SIS Lieutenant, if you -. Under the SHU Lieutenant. I would be under the SIS Lieutenant. MR. And there is - on that 9th, what does it state there? It says unassigned? Unassigned. MR. : So, no one was working that day? No. Iwas the only SIS Lieutenant. I'm trying to think. Yeah. Nobody was in there that day. MR. Can you just circle that for : Sure. MR. : So, you were not here on the 9th, is what you are saying? :_No. Okay. No. And no one was? Not in the SIS Shop. MR. : Oh, wow. Is that abnormal, for being a Friday, without anyone 28 (Indiscernible *00:19:36). -- on Friday. I can't recall us? But -. And who was the SIS tech? Her name is Yes. All right. But she wasn’t here? She wasn’t here. And do you recall that that the schedule says that - but do you recall not being here? Thinking that it was the day before. : Okay. Put this here just in case we MR. : Okay. MR. : When did you first become aware that Epstein’s cellmate, inmate [M, was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00064272

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP HE: The day of the actual suicide. ve. a: which would be -- August 10th. -- August 10th. Yes. Saturday, when you came in, that's when ou learned -? : When I came in. Mm-hmm. MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, when you came in, what were you aware of why was removed from the institution? After speaking to him, they told me he got released from court. That's what I was told. MR. : Who told you that he was -? : Not sure. Not sure. Okay. I can't remember. So, your understanding was, || went to court and he just didn't come back? understand. When you say actual suicide, Right. That's what I I still don't know. MR. : That's what (Indiscernible *00:21:24). That's (Indiscernible *00:21:26) right. I have -- MR. : Sure. : == assumed that he went to court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he made bail or something -- Okay. -- and he got released from But that’s what everybody that he actually went to court. Yes. : Okay. So, based on what we - our investigation, I'l] show you an email. This email is dated -. This is from (Phonetic Sp. #00:21:46), from the U.S. Marshal Service. Okay. MR. : And it went to, it the employees at the R&D. a. Mm-hmm. looks like PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 30 MR. MBB: What's a normal procedure, how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being moved to court or being transferred out? From court, you're saying? From court. Let’s say -- You're talking about court. . : -- i as - MR. : Well in this case, did you ever hear that ee actually never went to court, he actually was transferred to another institution? No. I heard he went to So, even to this date -- And was released from court. MR. : -- to this date, did you ever hear that, that he never went to court? He actually was transferred? i, I’ve never heard that. MR. : Oh, you've never even heard that? :_ No. MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because that's what happened. He never went to court. He was transferred. 32 MR. MMMM: And it says, transfer of inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. This email was sent to them. If you take a look at the title, the subject, it says, “Transfer of inmates.” Yeah. MR. : And it says, prisoners from -- “Transfer of : I see it. MR. : -- to GO. (Phonetic Sp. *00:22:10). : To GO. And inmate [am is stated on this. So, he never -. It’s not that he went to court. He actually was transferred to GO. Do you know what the procedure is for something like that? If an inmate is to be transferred, how do they pull the inmate out? How do they let the SHU know that the inmate needs to be pulled out? Normally, R&D would get in touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. MR. MM: Is that known as a court list? EFTA00064273

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 33 A court list. And that list comes over, and let the SHU officers know? Yes. R : So, they prepare them. And on that - if that he was leaving - what would it state on the -? Have you ever heard the term, WAB? = Zz they 7 Yes. What does -- Yes. -- WAB mean to you? With All Belongings. : And what is your if it states that? To me, With All Belongings can mean anything. You know, where is he going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? MR. : But does it mean that he’s coming back? = za understandin To me, no. R : And your understanding is, if it says WAB, he's leaving for certain? Right. R : Okay. di 35 , and then they disposed of it. I don't know. Okay. Was it kept, though, under your investigation, for when you went in on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, part of, like, anything that you would have collected? Did I? I don’t think I had the court_list. MR. No? : To be honest with you. I had a lot of stuff. But I don’t recall seeing the court list. MR. So, in the stuff -- Oh. MR. -- that you did, on the 10th, did you involve at all, did you look into it at all, BBB leaving and Epstein not having a cellmate? I think I did. I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork, once I got here, to see where was What happened with . I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. MR. Okay. But you didn't - PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP : Right. MR. : And when, as an SIS, would you get a copy of those court production lists -- No. -- or productions? No? No. : Okay. Do you know, I mean, it’s on the top, do you ever -. Do you recall, after this investigation started, after Epstein’s death, ever seeing that court list for that No. I've never seen it. day? rm If we wanted to obtain a copy of it, do you know if there’s any way we can obtain a copy of that? a. I would think it should be in the Receiving and Discharge area. MR. : And that’s something that they -- rm The R&D. MR. : -- if we asked, and based on it, it said no one seems to have maintained a copy of that. It looks like they’ve printed 36 You didn't ever maintain, you know, obtain that court_list, though? : I didn't have the court list. MR. : Okay. : I don’t recall having a court list. No. MR. MB: And so, do you - if R&D doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is any way that we could get our hands on one of these court lists? : I don't know. I don't know, in SENTRY, because I don’t deal with their functions. So, I don't even know if they were able to -_be able to go back. MR. Yeah, no, they can't. They replace it every day. : Right. MR. : Every (Indiscernible *00:25:14), so no one -- : See, I don't -- MR. : -- is going to maintain in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other emai 1? MR. | one? MR. : The one that they sent EFTA00064274

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ ae od rr 37 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was being transferred. MR. Oh, no. email. I think that's separate. print that one out. MR. Okay. And do you know, are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshal Service - at least back then, I don't know if they still do this - but they would send out an email the day before, which would be sent to, like, all the lieutenants, and a number of other people, for people who, the following day, are going to court or being transferred. Are you familiar with that email that’s sent by the Marshal Service? ee. probably seen it. MR. : Okay. But you don’t really know what I'm talking about? Oh, it -- Okay. -- I would have to see it. To be honest_with you. MR. MR I don’t have that I didn't : Okay. : I'm going to take a step back. When Epstein was brought out of psych 39 it from? By word of mouth. Do you recall who you heard Let's see. I want to say [i , who is the psychologist. I want to say said that he has to have a cellmate. MR. : So, she probably came down. Do you recall if she told other people in the SHU, in regards to that? a. I don’t know because I wouldn't have been in the SHU. All right. Sorry. MR. :__The reason I ask is, now that we know that is leaving the SHU, right? And he’s WAB, that, and the court list comes down, and our understanding is, on that court list, it states WAB -- Mm-hmm MR. : -- and he’s brought down to R&D. And he’s removed from the facility. Whose responsibility would it have been, at that point, to make sure that Epstein had a cellmate? I would say the supervisor. =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) PRR RRR COHN ew 38 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you recall that anyone from upper management, or even psych, mentioning that he was required to have a _cellmate? I didn't hear it, per se. But normally, when they come off of suicide watch, or a psych observation, they have to have a cellmate. And psychology, usually harbor on that. You know? They have to -- MR. Why is it -- -- have a cellmate. MR. -- why is it that they need a cellmate? I don't want to guess, but I would say, even though, you know, an attempt possibly was made, you want to prevent something happening going forward. MR. And do you recall - but you said you're not sure - but do you recall that there was a requirement for Epstein to have a cel lmate? : Yes. I do recall them saying he had to have a cellmate. MR. MM: «And that was by word of mouth? 40 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, because he would know that he’s leaving out of the SHU. MR. MMM: And this is the August 9th roster again. If you take -. MR. a. So, SHU Lieutenant [i -- on the 9th, as well. MR. : So, if he is off, then who would then become the next person -- : The next person -- MR. : == moving up? -- would be the Operations Lieutenant, should have been notified. MR. a. And vino should have notified the Operations Lieutenant? a. Normally, the SHU staff would say, you know, this guy left, and, you know, Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. And at what point -- So, I'm sorry -- -- should the -- -- cellmate. EFTA00064275

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 41 . | s fine. MR. : At what point should the SHU staff have notified the Operations Lieutenant? : Immediately. MR. : So, as soon as that person is being -? : As soon as Mr. I came out that cell. WR. WE: Okay. And is it one person over another, within the SHU, that should have told him? Or is it any one of them? No. Or all of them? I would say any one. Was there a person referred to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during that time? Like, one specific -- Yes. MR. : == person. They do have, yes, the SHU I know this roster shows SHU- 1, SHU- 2, SHU-3. But -- 43 Oh, he was? MR. : -- he’s actually was the But he’s not listed as one. Oh, I don't know. even see him as the number three. I don't know. WR. QM: «But he should have been listed as one, because he was the quarter -- If that was his -- MR. : == post? : -- if that was his post for the quarter, he should have been listed as the SHU number one. MR. : Okay. Unless they did a switch, or a mutual thing, or something to that effect. MR. : And , at that point, in 2019, had enough experience in the SHU, as the SHU OIC, from your recollection? mt Yeah, MR. : So, the morning of, what happened based on our investigation, is Epstein and his cellmate, , Were removed at the same time. So, Officer MM came in. : Okay. OIC. I didn't I don’t -. PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP rei Yes MR. : -- was there any specific person, during that time period, who was considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 1 - but was considered to be the officer in charge? Yes. It would been the SHU number one wich would be Officer MR. HE. But what about, we heard other people refer to as as, though, the officer in charge. Because he’s been in there the longest, at that point. : Yes. Have you ever heard that? Yes. He would be the OIC? He was the OIC, probably for the quarter, I would say, he was. MR. : And why wouldn’t he be listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the quarter? Do you know? a. He could have been on his day off. I don't know. WR. GY: No, no. And we heard that -- vk. a: knew -- . : Court list. . : == court list, and he knew that was leaving. So, they packed up his stuff in a little brown paper bag, and retrieved Epstein from his cell, also, and they both were transported on the elevator down together. Epstein to attorney conference, and out. He was there. 44 With the court order. He Okay. And we know, in the elevator, too, there was a conversation about Epstein needing a_cellmate. : Okay. MR. : Now, being that [ay escorted him down, and down, he was in the elevator, and was in the elevator, knowing that is leaving, out of them two, should either of them have made a notification Yes. immediately? | Do you think they would have known that it was important that they made the notification? EFTA00064276

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ee oll ood Wher © Wo : Yes. MR. : Why do you think that? : If you had a conversation about him needing a cellmate, that means - to me - you know that it was important for him to have_one. And you knew that his - obviously - Mr. was leaving WAB. And Epstein needed acellmate. So, or I feel, like, right then and there, the notification should have been made. Even though he’s in attorney conference, but his cellmate is leaving, lieutenant, we need a cellmate for him. WR. QR: Is there any reason for them to believe that, even though it showed WAB, that - that for them to believe that would be coming back? I would say no. If it says WAB, that's what it is. I would assume that he’s not coming back. MR. Now, if, let’s say they've mentioned sometimes they bring inmates down to R&D, and the bus doesn't come. Or they’re not going to court, and sometimes they come back up. How long does that process normally take? ae. It happens. Hmm. I've seen 47 I should clarify that -- -- come by then. MR : -- Lmean, I meant notification, should MMIII or anybody in the SHU, at that point, at 11:00, notified the superior, hey, listen - supervisors - hey, listen, is gone, and Epstein is -- MR. : And not 11:00. Just during their shift. At some point, if they left their shift at 2:00 p.m. without making a notification, should have they known by 2:00 p.m., at the very least, that he was not coming back? ee MR. : Okay. So, at some point, prior to 2:00 p.m., a notification should have been made? Yes. Yes. MR. And you mentioned that it should have been to the SHU Lieutenant. Lieutenant J is not there. And it should have been the ops lieutenant. Who was the ops lieutenant during that shift? The morning shift. | RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 46 it be a couple of hours, before the inmates will come back up. MR. So, this is, they were brought down any time between 8:00 a.m. and 8:30 a.m. M-hmm . MR. : So, when you say a couple hours, we're talking about anywhere between 10:00 and 10:30 a.m.? Yeah. I’ve seen inmates come up later. You know, an hour and a half, you know, he didn't -. He’s not leaving on a bus. Once they get everybody on the bus, they will go back up to Special Housing. MR. : Now, if the inmate was not brought back up to the SHU, let’s say by even 11:00 a.m., right? Because if they’re expecting that there is a possibility that the inmate might come back up, and it doesn't happen by 11:00 a.m., should they have made a notification? They normally would. And because they - I'm going to reach and say - they assumed he was leaving, because he didn't come back -- 48 MR. QR: And he should have been notified, and what should have done? WE. e should have notified, of course, his chain of command, which is the captain, hey, Epstein’s cellmate has left, and he needs a cellmate. And that, also, we would have told psychology, you know, Epstein’s cellmate left. He needs a cellmate because somebody vetted the cellmates. So, I would say, I guess, they would go back to that process of seeing who was a good fit for him. MR. MM: And if - what is your understanding - if that notification was never made up the chain of command? MR. What’s your question? : Yeah. MR. : What is your understanding, if they never made -? Was somebody at fault, in terms of -. I should clarify that. If that notification never got -. If never told the ops lieutenant, and the ops lieutenant never told the captain, right? When was the next time they would have caught onto the fact Epstein needed a cellmate? EFTA00064277

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 49 : Again, I would say somewhere between that shift, they should have made that notification. If not, it would have went onto the evening shift, that he still was without a cellmate. MR. And you said that the inmate was vetted. So, could anyone have assigned a cellmate to Epstein? Anyone in the SHU assigned somebody to be Epstein’s cel lmate? Normally, in a case where they try to get that good fit, they would talk to the captain, who would have talked to psychology, and they'll go through the SHU roster to see who they think would be suitable to put him in with. WR. QR: Okay. else on that? wR. QM: Yes. So, when you go to - you said the next shift - so, who -? So, you're saying that, after left, and his shift left, then the next shift in the SHU should have, then, made the same notifications up the chain of command? If they’re saying he didn't Do you have anything have a cellmate. 51 lieutenant, hey, I know J left, but 1 thought he was coming back, and he - or I didn't know if he wasn’t coming back - and he did not pass that information onto the next ops lieutenant. Is there - what is your opinion of that matter? My opinion of that is definitely, you know, something is wrong, because if you have the court list sitting in front of you, it says WAB. And it means he took all his belongings. You know, if it was court, it would say court. MR. a. Okay. And do you know how, do the operations lieutenants actually look at that list? I can't speak for -. Are they supposed to? I would say yes. Okay. Because you know who’s moving from the Special Housing. And some of the inmates that move actually are lieutenant moves, where you have to go up and get them. So, you're going to look at the court list to see who is moving. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 50 MR. MM: Okay. And then, would that go on again to the morning watch? Because, again, he didn't have a shift for 24 hours. So, every shift, should have they made that notification up? :_I would say yes. MR. Okay. And is it your understanding that the operations lieutenant actually has that same court list, that they would have Headquarters, that would have shown him as WAB? The court list, yeah. Usually, it’s in the lieutenant’s office, in the mornings. MR a. Okay. So, if IBM says that he actually knows that left, or thought he went to court, and didn't know if he wasn’t going to come back, if he had that court list, that said WAB, should have he referenced that, or looked at it? Yes? Yes, sir. . Okay. So, is that a kind of an excuse to say, for the operations WR. QM: Okay. And then, as far as MJ. Did everyone know who = was at that time? Do you believe that, if, for instance, someone like a , he sees on the list, sees that he’s WAB. Would he know that’s Epstein’s cellmate? It says he’s from the SHU. He’s WAB. Would he know that that’s Epstein’s cellmate? Or do you think that that notification would still need to be made from the SHU, for him to be able to kind of recognize that? : I can't even say he should have known that that was his cellmate because he’s in a different area than the Special Housing. 52 Okay. : So, sometimes, you wouldn’t know whose cell that up there, you know, up in the Special Housing. MR. Okay. But if he says, now, SHU didn't tell me, that I knew because I had the court list, and it says WAB, should have he known, at that point, yes, I knew this guy was gone, and he was not coming back? Yes. EFTA00064278

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP MR. : Okay. :_I can agree with that. MR. : Okay. Great. What do you think the -? Would that court list stay in the operations, or the lieutenants office, throughout the duration of the day, would the next operation lieutenant that came on - which I believe is - would that person have also had that court list? It normally stay in there for the day. Ona clipboard. It usually would be on a Clipboard in the lieutenant’s office. So, I don’t -. I can't say that , you know, looked at it, but it should have been there when he came on. WR. QM: 9 Should have he looked at I could - . And I'm asking you this as the SIS lieutenant. We don’t know the answer to that. So, that’s why we’re asking A good lieutenant would. Right. Because you would know who is 55 what you would say? —. I would say him and whatever other officer did the escort with him. oe Okay. Fair enough. Because they know the SHU inmates. . = Right. Okay. lhat about the officers in the iW, at that point? Let’s say there was - how many officers that you mentioned? - J, and who else were in the SHU? Yes. In the morning shift. | : Yes. MR. : Should they have -. Would they have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? Yes. If they’re working up - yeah - I would say yes. WR. QR: And let’s say, during this shift, should they have understood - I know he asked already - should they have understood the fact that, hey, Epstein needed a cellmate -- a. Yes. that PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 54 not in your jail. MR. a. Right. As far as other people that could have made this notification, what would the unit teams’ responsibility be for if one of their people who was assigned to SHU, left the institution? Should have they been coordinating, or making any notifications? I'm not sure what role they play when the inmates leave the Special housing, to be honest with you. MR. : You don’t? Yeah. I don't know what role they play. MR. : Okay. With their inmates. an issue, as far as them leaving. MR. QM: Al) right. So, for you, though, you feel, like, the primary person that would be responsible would be the person who was actually with the inmate, who brought him down, and knew that he was leaving? :_ Yes, MR. : So, in this case, a. should have made the notifications, it falls primarily on him. Is 56 That's -- could they have made notification? Yes. And who came to the SHU after HE. s. Noel. WR. MMM: And during this shift, should they have known also? Should they have made notification? Yes MR. anything else on that? MR. And they would have known, I'm assuming, from doing rounds? From doing their rounds. And if they were -- Yes. -- doing rounds, they would. tow there’ S no one in that cell? Yes MR. “Okay. MR. 50, we can go into the rounts? Mm-hnm . And the counts. And So, based on EFTA00064279

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 57 our - based on what we - in our investigation, we understood is, the 4:00 p.m. count, on the 9th. The 10:00 p.m. count. + Mm-hmm, MR. : The midnight. The 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. counts were not done. Right. MR. : And if the counts were done, as Agent just asked, if the counts were done at 4:00 p.m., would they have known that was not there, and Epstein needed a cel lmate? Yes. What about at 10:00 p.m.? Yes. . All right. And the reason that we were able to determine it, is also because of the fact that_inmate was removed from the SHU by He was actually in the SHU visiting room, and there was an incident where a witnessed him possibly having contraband, so he removed him. He called for a lieutenant, and put him into a dry cell in R&D. ich. 59 WE |He could have, as well. Because you brought him down. And he’s coming off of the SHU base count. WR. WR: What is -? He's coming off the count -- Right. MR. : -- $0, at 4:00 p.m., the count should have been adjusted on the E1, and also -- Absolutely. MR. : -- okay. Have you ever heard of inmates pre-filling the rounds and count sheets? re Inmates? MR. : Oh. Sorry. Sorry. I apologize. Have you ever heard of the C.0.s pre-filling the rounds and count sheets? When, let's just say the rounds there abouts (Indiscernible *00:43:25) of their shift. : Yes. =a Right? And they go in, they have their round sheet. They expect to do the rounds during the certain times, so they go in and they fill it out for the whole shift. And they try to do it during those times that they RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 58 MR. MB: Except he was not keyed out. This happened around 1:45 on August 9th, after -. Except he was not keyed until after midnight on August 10th. So, if he was removed from the SHU, and he was placed in R&D dry cell, who should have -? Who had the responsibility to key him out, at that point? off the SHU and place him in R&D? It would have been the counts and assignment, to walk those in. MR. : That's a CNA? : Yes. MR. : I see. Counts and assignment. And how would CNA have known that he got_moved? Well, normally, they would make a notification, I would say, when he got to R&D, that, hey, we have this inmate here, in the dry cell. MR. MM: So, R&D should have notified counts and assignments? : Yes. MR. : Was there any responsibility for the officer who removed him from the SHU, and brought him down? filled out. : I’ve never seen it, to be honest with you. I’ve never seen that. MR. : Have you ever heard of C.0.s doing that? : No. R. Has there ever been any incidents in WC regarding C.0.s pre-filling -? re Not that I know of. MR. : What about the count sheets? Would they start the shift, they already know what count is supposed to be there? : I've seen that. MR. : And what have you seen? Well, my experience being a lieutenant, and being in the control center, taking the count, I have seen count slips come down to the control center, and I'm monitoring the camera because I'm physically watching you count. So, if I have your count sheet, and I haven't seen you count yet, I'm discarding it, and I'm calling you on the phone. How do I have your count sheet and you haven't counted yet? wR. a: Is that normal procedure as a EFTA00064280

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRR RRR RR NDMP WNPRPOWOHDH SWwNP ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 61 lieutenant, when you're doing the count from the control room, you pay attention to the monitor, and you watch -? a. I could only speak for So, as your practice. I do. Okay. Yes. MR. : And you watch the C.0.s to make sure that they're doing the counts. Absolutely. MR. Which C.0.s have you seen that haven't done that? That haven't done the counts, but send their count slips in. Pfft. I can't give you exact names because I've been on all of the shifts. MR. And what happens if, ina situation like that, if you see that, that they didn't do the count, but they send the slip down? What do you do? I'm pulling. I'm doing a verbal counseling. MR. Verbal counseling. Yes. I'm doing a verbal 63 shower. You're making sure those are done. Normally, when you go in the SHU, you have inmates calling you, once you get there. MR. : Right. : Once the door open. So, you're going on the ranges and seeing what's going on with the inmates on the ranges. MR. Now, are you supposed to go from door to door, when your lieutenant does a round, though? Is the lieutenant supposed to do a round just as, like, a C.0. that’s working the SHU does a round, go to each cell, to check and see -- :__To be honest -- MR. : -- what's going on? : -+ I don’t think there's nothing in policy stating that we have to go door to door, and see each inmate, but you - most of the time - you will go on a range, I would assume, because you want to see what's going on. With the inmates. Especially since it’s the Special Housing. a. So, this is where we get MR. a lot of discrepancies. So, most of the lieutenants say absolutely, you have to go door RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS mmr =e Wh 25 62 counseling. Basically, listen, don’t send me your count slip until you do your count. Next time, I'm going to go to the next step, which is discipline. MR. MB: And have you ever told them to go back and count? : Yes. MR. : And they followed it? : Yes. MR. What is a lieutenant round? You understand it, you just mentioned that, when you do a count -- MR. In the SHU. lieutenant_round in the SHU? MR. -- yeah. In the SHU, with the lieutenant rounds, you go up to SHU, as well as every other area, you see if there’s anything abnormal going on in the SHU, you're going to ask a question. You know, anything we should know about, anything you got going on up there. You're just making sure that the officers are doing their job for the shift, the inmates are getting their phone calls, if there’s any inmates that haven't been showered, who may What is a 64 to door, and that’s what a round is. Select few of the lieutenants say, like, no, no, no, no, that’s not -. It’s your discretion, if you do that or not. So, are you kind of more of that, that kind of side of it, it’s their discretion? :_ I'm more of -. MR. : Because they have to sign when they - is it correct - that they have to sign the round sheet -- 1 Yes, MR. : == Saying they did a round? HE. So, normally, like myself, 1 would be on the range, because the round sheets are on the range. So, you have to go on the range to sign the round sheets. MR. : But do you have - but just to go on the range, I guess you don’t necessarily have to look in -- : Right. MR. -- their window. Correct? HR. Right. But if you go on, you're going to look door to door. I would EFTA00064281

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ee oll ood Wher © Wo think. WR. QM: but this time, our understanding is the round sheets were actually kept on the officer’s desks. On the desk out - So, not on the range. They all did it right from where the desk was. Do you know if that’s the case? : Idon't. I don't know. This is the first I'm hearing of it. Because normally, they're at the end of the range. MR. : Right. : On the wall. So, that’s going to force you, as a supervisor, to go on each range because you have to go to the end of the range to sign. MR. a. Okay. Do you know if there is maybe MCC didn't have this practice, but do you know, as the BOP, as a lieutenant round that's conducted in the SHU, and that the lieutenant that actually signs the round sheet, saying that they conducted the round in the SHU, do you know if BOP policy says that they're supposed to go from cell, door to door, and that’s the reason why they put these sheets at the end of the ranges? 67 Epstein's down at attorney conference, and isn't here, so there’s no one in that cell. Should have they been, you know, should have they known -? empty, Yes. : Okay. If you knew that on the count slip - I'm sorry - on the court roster that he was WAB, and you see Epstein downstairs, then if you're paying attention, you would just -. That's something you would have asked. Hey, we got a cellmate for him yet? Who he’s going with. That type of thing. MR. =. Okay. So, those lieutenants that actually did do the rounds in the SHU, on that date, then they do have some fault_in this, that = was never replaced? :__I'm going to say yes. . : Okay. MR. : Anything else on rounds and counts? I'm moving onto cameras. mR. a. Perfect. MR. : Okay. When did you learn that the cameras were not working at the MCC? August 8th. RR ROW OHM fwrKP —— wr RPRRR oN Du MmNmenNrre rmrROow mre re WW = Ww RR ae ee PRR RRR Dw wr ed ool mel ro wo Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 66 HE: 1 don't recall if that’s what the policy says. : Okay. Yeah. And just as far as clarification, do you know if BOP policy states where the count sheets, or the round sheets are supposed to be kept? Forget the fact that you have to look at it, but does it state that it should be either kept on the officer's desk, or at the end of the -? I’ve never seen -- MR. : Okay. -- yeah. I've never seen that policy where it should be kept that. MR. : Okay. That's just practice? : Yes. MR. : Okay. on the rounds and counts? MR. QM: «No. I guess I just, do you think if the lieutenants that did the rounds within the SHU, on August 9th, have any exposure to the fact that was gone, and should have they - when they did their rounds - should have they known that, hey, this cell is Do you have anything August 8th. Yes. Can you tell us what transpired? — I actually was reviewing the cameras from the SIS office, with one of the associate wardens. We were looking for an inmate, to see what time he was released, a cadre (Phonetic Sp. *00:50:30) inmate. We were looking to see what time he was released because I was trying to backtrack, because I was going to interview the inmate, with an OIG officer, about an incident. And I learned, he’s gone. And I said, gone where? Oh, his release date - which, he was scheduled to be released - so, that made me go back to look to see, well, let me see what time they released him. And we were trying to pinpoint when he got released, so we could get in touch with that halfway house. So, we - myself and the agent - was going to go to the halfway house, to interview him. And upon me going back to the cameras, I said, wait a minute, we don’t have no cameras. I can't go back. So, of course, I clicked on Okay. EFTA00064282

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 69 several cameras, just to see if I could play it back on the cameras, and I noticed the cameras are down. I can't go back and rewind anything. At that time, I called the communications shop, and told them, I don’t have no cameras up here. You know, I can't go. I can't play it back. A gentleman came upstairs and said, okay, I'm going to come and check the camera system, which he has the keys for, as well. And he did check it out, and he said, okay, the cameras is not working. I'm going to fix them. I'm going to do overtime or something to that effect. To fix the cameras. At that time, I notified the captain. WR. QR: 90h, you notified the captain? 1 Yes. MR. : That the cameras were down? That the cameras was down. And I wrote a memo - a memorandum - as well. MR. Oh, if you have that, can please give it to us? a It’s - I can't get in my home drive - it would be on my home drive. you 71 WR. QR: «So, and when you say “the gentleman,” are you talking about 1 Yes. MR. : Okay. So, that’s the person who came in and checked? 1 Yes, MR. : Is it true that he can only obtain access to the camera room, if an SIS employee actually lets him in? : Absolutely not. He has the keys. MR. : At that time, he did? : The first door, which is the steel door with the Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. *00:53:21), I have to let him into that. MR. : That's what I mean. he can't actually get -- : Right. -- in to the SIS -- Unless I -- -- area -- let him into that part. Correct. So, So, he had told you, on PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 70 MR. QM: | And when will you be able to get_access to that? I'm out of work. So, I can't access it. MR. QM: «0h, we have heard that you were back this week. Is that not the case? :_No. MR. : Oh. : I'm not back this week. I only came for the interview. I won't be back for maybe, like, another two to three weeks. MR. When you come back in two or three weeks, could you - I'll send you an email, just_as far as, like -- a. I was going to say. email me where to send it to, yes. MR. Fantastic. : So, at that point, I did type the memo that the cameras was done. MR. This is on the 8th? On the 8th. MR. : Okay. Yes. And I assumed that the gentleman was going to stay and fix the cameras that day. If you 72 the 8th, he was actually going to stay and fix it? :_ And do overtime to fix it. MR. : Okay. : Because I let him into the office, so he can go see what I was telling him, the cameras is down. I can't play back. MR. Okay. And do you know if that's the first time it was noticed, that those cameras were down? I can't say that that was the first time that was noticed. MR. Because our investigation shows that, as early as 7/29/2019, those cameras stopped recording. So, there is about half of the cameras in the institution that were recording, and half that weren't. They were all live monitoring. :_ Yes. MR. But did you find anything about that, or do you know anything about that? : No. No. It’s not until I was actually in the phone room, with the agents, going through the cameras, that we realized that they stopped recording. EFTA00064283

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP 73 WR. RM: «0h, so, you knew this on the 10th or something, you -- -- realized this -- Yeah. It was -- -- after the investigation? : Mm-hmm. MR. : So, you had heard, later, that at 7/29 -- Right. -- is when -? Okay. MR : So, you know that now, is what ou mean by -- : Yes, MR : August 8th -- -- between 7/29 and The 10th. -- you never -? No. Okay. No. So, the 8th was the first time you found out? : No. MR, : work in the SIS room? : In the phone room. . : Okay. : He would be assigned, for the quarter, to the phone room. MR. : That’s in the SIS office? : It’s not in my office, but it's a part of SIS. The phone room. It’s kind of, like, next door to SIS. MR. Is that the room where the camera servers are located? : Yes, MR. : Okay. So, does he also need someone from SIS to let him in, to be able to do phone monitors? :_No. MR. ; out? HE: He has the phone monitor keys, half the keyring for him to get into the door. a To get into -- : I'm sorry. The key. 75 Hmen=mm . All right. But would he MR How does he get in and — CSCwWOHUMDMS fwrP 74 MR. : Do you remember if, prior to the 8th, you ever were on the camera system, trying to rewind and watch? Because I would think that’s something you do kind of regularly. a. I can't remember if it was myself, or the SIS tech MJ, to be honest with you, because normally, if it’s an incident and I need some video footage, I'l] ask her to pull the footage for me. You know? So, I can see it. So, I can't recall if we had an incident where we need to pull any camera footage. MR. a. Okay. So, you don’t remember if there was footage before that. : No. MR. : Was there a tech i, or BBB, or something like that? :__Phone monitor. MR. : He was on -- : Yeah. | was the phone monitor, which is a regular correctional officers. MR. QM: 0h, so, he’s not an SIS tech? 76 -- the primary SIS area? Yes. Okay. So, do you know if he was workin on the 9th? a. I don’t know if he was working because he hadn’t been in the phone room for some -- WR. QR: «Would he be listed on the WS: ~~ Jet me look. Because they were actually pulling him every day, re- assigning him to different posts. So, he is working, but they re-assigned him to another post. WR. MM: Okay. So, he wasn't - on the 9th - he wasn’t actually working? If you see three Sally, you'll see him there. MR. And would that be because there was no SIS tech or lieutenant to allow him into that room? No. It would be because they were short-staffed. MR. 2 Okay. : And they just re-assigned him EFTA00064284

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 77 to another post. 1, MMII: kay. So, if IID says that he wasn’t able to fix the cameras on the 8th because he didn't have the proper equipment, and then he couldn’t gain access on the 9th. Does that make sense? He wasn’t able to get in on the 9th because neither you or the tech were here. He would be able to get in because my keys don’t go home with me. He would have just had to ask the captain for access to the SIS keys, and he would have been able to go into the office. WR. QR: And Vike you said, the captain actually knew that the cameras were down? : Yes. MR. : And you are positive of that? : I'm positive. MR. : Did you have a verbal conversation with him about it? I had a verbal conversation. MR. : And can you recall what that conversation entailed? 79 about a need to get them back up? I don't know if they had a separate conversation, but when I called Mr. —_ over to radio, Ms. was still standing there with me in the office. And she was there with me when he came up to check, because we thought it was something that maybe he can just go in, and it allow us to go to the camera, and look for what we were looking for. WR. QE: «And when he mentioned the whole I'l] stay overtime, was she there when - was there - when he mentioned that he would stay to work overtime? =. I can't remember because I know he had to get in touch with his boss first. hmm. MR. : + Mn- WR. : -- so, BBM told us that he was approved to work overtime on Saturday, to come in on Saturday and work. Do you know who he would have contacted, in order to get that approval to work overtime? EE I don't know. I would assume his boss, which was Mr. IM (Phonetic Sp. Oh, okay. So -- PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 78 I remember stepping to his office, which was right next door to mine, and notifying him that the cameras was down, that I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, and I can't. Actually, I had one of the associate wardens with me, as well. Who happens to be his supervisor, so. Who was that? was there? Yes. Okay. Okay. So, and it wasn’t it was actually IP No. It was me and AW i. And that was with Captain Yes. Okay. So then, the two of them knew that the cameras were down? : Yes. MR. : All right. And do you know if they had any conversations with *00: * —_— is out, and he has acting in his rea Phonetic Sp. *00:58:53), and and both say, he didn't talk to me about working overtime. Is there anyone else that he would have been -? Well, because you said that he told you he was going to work overtime. : Yes. a Would you be an approving official for that? :_ No. MR. : Would [I be an approving official, though? a. I'm not sure if she was over facilities, that department. So, I’m - no - I'm not sure. WR. MM: kay. So, how did he know he would be able to work overtime to fix don't know. it? : I MR. : You don’t know? He just said I’11 work overtime. Yes. MR. : Okay. So, I'm assuming EFTA00064285

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Wonton fwWwrP 81 this was some time prior to 2:00 p.m. on the 8th, that you learned of this incident, since his shift typically ends at 2:00 p.m.? =. Yeah. It was a little after 1:00 p.m. wR. QM: Okay. And that was the 8th. But again, on the 8th was the first that you found out the cameras -- : Yes. MR. : == were down? Do you know if there is anyway anyone could have tampered with that system, to intentionally take the cameras offline? I don’t know. I don't know because nobody normally goes into - with the service bar - besides him. Or there's one more communication tech, . WR. WM: Was he there, though, at the time? No. : So -- No. -- it was just - at the Correct? Yes. It was just J. time - it was only 83 : So-. MR. : So, the server, actually, was ina locked door? : Yes. MR. : So, really, I didn't have access to it? Right. But the tech would have? : Okay. Yes. She would. So, yourself, the tech, MR. & -- were really the only three people? MR. : Well, MMMM wasn’t here at the time, though. Correct? MR: Probably Mir. MM. 1 think But - but just to clear was not -- Okay. : =~ BBB vasn't here at 82 MR. : © So, who would have had access to that server rom? Now, in the MCC as a whole, who could have had access to that server room, and would potentially taken it offline? : I don't know who would intentionally take it off, but I can tell you the access would have been us, from the SIS shop. Hmm. The comm shop, which is Mr. [a and MJ. And I'm not sure if their key - if that key is on, in the other key ring. MR. a. So, is it really only the two of you, then, with SIS, then also the phone monitor individual Is it Hf or = : Is that JP I don’t think Mr. I had the key on his ring because, if I needed to go, my ink cartridges for my printer and stuff was in there, as well. So, I would always lock the door back, because we don't allow an officer to just walk where the server is at. WR. ME: Okay. the time, though? Oh, you don’t know? -- I really don’t know. MR. : Oh, okay. No. That’s why I was asking you. My understanding -- I don’t know. MR. MB; -— vas that [I vas the only tech at the time. | was in the building, but I know {J is who I dealt with at the time. MR. MM: Okay. And then, J would have? I think it may be on Mr key because he’s the facilities manager. But again, I'm not sure what keys they have. What about the captain? I don’t know. Now, when you -- I don’t know what's on his EFTA00064286

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 85 keyrings. MR. -- now, you say you don’t ever leave the institution with these keys, did you give them to the captain, or where are the keys? HE. No. They're located in the control center, behind a locked box. MR. Okay. : So, I have to give them the key to open my locked box in order for me to retrieve my SIS keys. MR. : Okay. And then, does anybody else have that key, to open your locked box, to get those keys? :_No. i What are -? You said the captain does, though? I thought you said he could have gone to the captain to get the keys. MR. : He can't get into my locked box. He has his own locked box. MR. So, how would -. I think you -. I though you said that the captain could have allowed to get in -? He would have had them allowed to break the glass, and get my key out. 87 didn't have one at the time. MR. Okay. But you’re certain that and , on the 8th, were aware that there was a camera issue, and not recording? Yes. MR. : Do you know if they notified the warden? : I don’t recall. MR. : Okay. : Because I notified the And he seemed a little -- Notified the warden when? -- on the 10th. : Okay. Qn the 10th. Once I came in, once the incident happened. And me and him was having a conversation, and he was saying, and there's no cameras working, and I said, what do ou mean there's no cameras working? I said, — was supposed to fix the cameras on the warden. MR. 8th, and, you know, he was surprised, like, what are you talking about? And I said, the cameras went down on the 8th. Warden and I notified MMMM that the cameras was down. And PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 86 They would have had to -- If it was another -- -- actually break it? -- they would have to actually break the keys. Myself, the SIS tech, all of our keys are in a locked box. So, if it’s an emergency, you would have to break the glass to retrieve our keys. MR. And in this case, you believe that would be an emergency, that they were to break the glass to fix the cameras on the 9th? .. yes. MR. : So, you think that that would have been appropriate action, to break it? : Yes. MR. : Okay. And then, the captain does not actually have a key to get into the SIS office, though? : No. MR. : Does anyone else? Ii, or -? : No. I think it’s only on the SIS staff, the phone monitor, the SIA, which we 88 I said, I wrote a memo. MR. And what happened with your memo? Who gets that memo? My memo, I usually give it to the captain. WR. QM: «Okay. And do you know, in this case, did you give it to the captain? I did give it to him. I might have emailed it, as well, to the -. I would have to look at my email. I might have emailed it, as well. MR. : And would have you -? : And I might have emailed it to ._ Again, I can't remember -- MR. : Can you -- -- exactly who I sent it to. . -- you know, when you come in, can you check your sent box, and see if on the - you would have done this on the 8th, though? a: It would have been on the 8th. MR. : Okay. : Yes, MR. : So, you would have - it EFTA00064287

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP 89 sounds, like, potentially - hand-delivered to him? : Mm-hmm. MR. : And emailed, or both? Or I mean, one or the other? Normally, because he’s next door, I would hand deliver him stuff. MR. : Okay. To be honest. And sometime, I would emai] it to him if his door is closed, and I don't see him. Or don’t know if I'm going to see him before I leave. WR. QM: “Okay. But you are positive, on the 8th, you gave him that memo, one way or the other? a. Yeah. I'm almost - though, I'm not going to say 100 percent sure - but I know I verbally told him that the cameras was down. WR. QM: «Are you 100 percent sure that there was a memo, though? Yes. MR. : But you may - when you say you're not 100 percent sure - when else would have you potentially done that memo? MR. —_, Perfect. Okay. But regardless, both and BE knew -- 91 That the cameras -- MR. : -- verbally, and J knew specifically, because she was -- Because she was with me. -- involved. Right. She was with me. WR. WM: Okay. And was she involved, at all, with those discussions with ? I can't remember if she stayed with me. I think she walked away. MR. : Okay. Because we couldn't get what we needed, as far as footage. WR. = they both under the impression that was actually working on the camera system? MR. : Like, did they ask, well, are you going to take care of this, or anything like that? No. I don’t remember them 90 No. I did the memo on the -- right, you're not -- -- emailed it to him, I'm saying to you. MR. a. -- but you're 100 percent sure you provided it to him? — Yes. And I notified him, word of mouth, that the cameras was down. "R. MMM: Okay, and that - sorry - that's where I just want to make sure I'm clearing that up. So, you know for a fact you gave him that memo. You just don’t know if you gave it to him, either by hand -- Or email. -- or email. Yes. Okay. Yes. But it’s definitely, he Yes. 92 speaking a I just know -- MR. : No. When you verbally spoke with IM, though, and Cet the situation, did you say, I notified , he said he'll take care of it, or anything like that? : Yes. Yes. MR. : Okay. So, you did tell them that, that he would be fixing it. Yeah. Well, she was on the phone -. She was standing next to me when I was on the phone, talking to Mr. MR. : Okay. What about the captain, though? Did he know? No. He wasn't near me. MR. : Did he ask, like, is oing to fix it, or anything like that? :_No. He didn't -- MR. : Did he say anything? Well, what -- : =~ he didn't ask. MR. : -- what was his response to you telling him that the cameras were down? EFTA00064288

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 93 He asked me, did I notify them, and I said, yes. . a. That was my question. Okay. : So -- I apologize. -- so, he did know that Yes. -- was notified? Yes. Okay. Go ahead. . Was the captain surprised the cameras were down? I don't know if he was surprised because it's not, like, it's not normal. Sometimes, they do go down. You know? It's our job to notify who we need to notify to bring them back up. But -. MR. MM: Do you recall his reaction? Like, did he state, oh, yeah, it must be fixed today? Make sure takes care of it. What was his exact reaction to that notification? 95 taken back that the cameras were down. Because I assumed they was going to be fixed on the 8th. MR. : Okay. MR. Can I ask you, when you guys were - you and AW - were reviewing footage, and you realized it wasn’t working, you called What was reaction to finding out the cameras were not working? = He said he was going to come down and take a look at it. WR. QM: Did he mention it was an ongoing - it was already an issue, he was aware of it, or was that the first he was hearing about_it? Do you recall? No. He didn't -- MR. : No? -- he didn't say. He just said, okay, I'm going to come take a look at it. WR. QB: And then, he came down, both of you guys were in the room, and he tried to - ? No. I wasn’t in there with him. I just opened the door so he could get PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP I can't recall. Okay. I can't recall. And did II ever come back and tell you that he couldn't fix it that day, on the 8th? No. He told me that on the 10th. MR. QM: «What did he tel] you on the 10th? Once I walked into the Special Housing area on the 10th, he was there. I don't know if he was working that day. But he was there, and when the door opened, you know, my response was, well, what happened to the cameras? And he said, oh, that’s what I'm here for today. Which was two days later. I'm here today to fix it. But I guess they pulled him, and put him on the post, or something to that effect. And I said, but you told me you was going to fix them on the 8th. And he was, like, I couldn’t fix them on the 8th. I can't remember why he said he couldn’t. But I think he responded to me before I could even ask the question, once he saw me because I was a little 96 in. And he went in, and he came back, and he said, yeah, they're not recording, and he made a phone call, or he walked away one, and he said, I'm going to stay and do overtime, tonight. MR. MM: And he did specifically say “tonight”? : Okay. And if he did stay, stay overtime, that would be on his webTA? Well -- It should be. It should be. . : -- well, no, we know he didn't. But -- MR. : Okay. Okay. MR. : -- as far as, if both you and the other SIS tech left, would he have been able to still stay in, on the 8th, in the camera room, to be able to work on it? : Yes, MR. : Okay. Yes. Because it’s been times EFTA00064289

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP MMM NR RRP RR RRR RRR WN OW DOHMH WN nm w 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 97 that he needed to do work, and I needed to go home. And the captain would say, okay, well, leave your keys with me, you know, so he could have access. MR. Okay. :_To the room. MR. So, when you left that day, did you check back in with [MM at all, to say, like -- I sure didn’t. -- hey. You did not? MR. : Okay. And do you know what he did after you told him I'm going to take care of? Do you know what he did? : No. MR : No. Did he stay in the room, thou h?_Did he -? a. No. He left out the room. He left out the room. MR. All right. And then, did you leave before the other tech, on the 8th? I would have left probably after her, because she leaves at 2:00. Uh-huh. What time? Do you recall that? > Hem. : Well -. MR. : There was a couple different -- . Name MR. : -- names, for different applications, but there is one application called Supervision, and that you might be able to log into Supervision and see if the recorder errors are actually recording. Do you know if you got access to that? No. lieutenant access, so. MR. = Right. MR. : Who had administrative access to the camera system? Meaning that Supervision? MR. : Supervision. Who could go in, control the cameras, or take cameras offline? And mess with the cameras. I don’t know. I would say computer services have access, and probably, I would say, facilities managers should have Supervision access. I have - mine is SIS PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP I can't remember what a: happened that day. —_ And what -? : Normally, I'm there between More closer to 3:00, I'm leaving. So. WR. MM: Okay. So, if you both left, though, at 2:00 or 3:00, and he said he was coming back that day to fix it, how would have he done that? Because I would have spoken to the captain and said, hey, needs to get in the com room. MR. conversation occur? :_ I honestly don’t remember. Okay. You don’t Do you remember, did that MR. remember. No. MR. : Okay. MR. : Nice Vision has that administrative feature. Nice Vision is the camera -- Mn-hmm . MR. : == system, right? That administrative feature is called Supervision. But not the SIS Shop? No. Okay. : So -- : No. MR : -- BB and is basically who you're saying? : I don’t know. I don’t even know if would have Supervision access because -. I don’t know. I would think, if you say Supervision, it would be upper -- a Yeah. Supervision doesn't mean super -. It's not a title for, like, somebody in the -. It’s a title for the app. So, like, there’s an app that says, like, you know, these people are granted access to be able to review and rewind, but then there’s another app -- :_ Oh. MR. : -- that allows you to actually check to see if things are running properly, and recording, an it’s just called Supervision. : Oh, okay. MR. : That doesn't mean -- EFTA00064290

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP — that would be -- MR. : == that you're a supervisor. : -+ that would be - I would say - that would be (MMM, because that’s his area, the cameras. wR. QM: «Okay. And do you know if anybody else would have the ability to do things like that, to take, you know, recorders on or offline, or to at least check their status with the camera system? I don't know. would be facilities shop. WR. QR: «So, but primarily, would be the person? Mm-hmnm . Okay. Yes. Not you, though? No. MR. : And in no way, while you were -. Although, the only thing that would be able to tip you off, if things weren't recording, is if you started trying to rewind, and it wasn’t rewinding. If it is, it to review it was, right? No. I don’t recall. R. : Okay. So, but it had been a little bit. It had been a little while? : Yes. R. : Okay. cameras? MR. : I think that’s all. MR. Okay. MR. : That’s great information, that we didn't know that before. I didn't know that that's how we found out that the cameras were offline -- Anything else on the Me-hmm R. : =+ was basically your review. How often should [MM have been going in to check those servers to make sure that they were online? Daily. MR. : So then, would you know if he was? I can't say he was checking daily. I know that he was up there quite often. But I can't even say that he was checking the cameras because, one I let him in, PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP If I tried to rewind, it wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know that it’s a problem, even if it’s not working at all. Or something is wrong with it. MR. GM: Did that - on the 8th, ou were looking - were there any red X’s? a: I don’t recall if -. Because it’s a lot of cameras, and they're in different places. So, I don’t recall there being a red X. MR. : But just to -- : On any of them. MR. : == circle back. What tipped you off was with you and {J trying to go back and review? : Yes. And that's where you said when -- why can't I do it? don’t recall when the last time you guys tried 104 to do whatever he’s doing with the servers, you know, I wasn’t standing there, you know, saying what are you doing, or, so -- MR. : And I know we're talk -- : -- but daily, they should have checked. WR. QM: -- 1 know we're talking a long time ago now, but do you remember, prior to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I think the information that we have suggests that the camera servers went down on the actual July 29th -- + Hmm, MR. : == of 2019. is, like, almost a - more than a -- Week. : == week -- Yeah. Yeah. MR. : -- do you know if he was actually going in, at that time, for that week period, checking in on the servers at all, at this -? So, there I know he entered the area. But I don’t know if he checked the servers while he were back there. But I know he was EFTA00064291

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP entering the area. Okay. What else is in that area? Just the servers in there. And ink _ At the top. And that’s on the third : It’s on the third floor. . : Okay. MR. : And then, nothing else is stored. Is there evidence stored in there? : No. MR. : For some reason, we were under the impression that SIS stored evidence there. There's no evidence in there. It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before I was born. WR. QR: And 1 think QR said that there was maybe, it’s like a hallway, and there's, like, some evidence, some old evidence, or evidence there. a: Not where the servers are. But it’s some file cabinets, where the servers are. And I think that’s maybe some archive SIS 107 So, let’s not go down that path. So, did you learn how that happened? How he was keyed into one, and not in another? : No. MR. No? Okay. -? Does this refresh your memory at all, Did you hear like, he was initially placed into one cell, when he came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, but then, the CPAP (Phonetic Sp. *01:16:21) machine didn't actually reach into there, so they had to switch him to another? :_No. MR. : No? So, you never heard anything about that? :_No. Okay. Go ahead. Who would have been responsible for making those changes in the system, to make sure that he’s in the actual cell where he’s supposed to be there? Normally, the SHU OIC make the changes. WR. QM: So, it wouldn't be the lieutenant? It would be the OIC? PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP cases from -- Okay. -- a long time ago. So, next topic? > Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what was your understanding about why Epstein was not in his assigned cell? Were you aware that he was - when they found him - and he was not in the cell that _he was assigned to in the system? No. I learned that later on, that -- MR. : What did you learn? -- that he was keyed to one cell, but he was actually living in another cell. So, I don't know where they changed his cell at. WR. WR: And is this because the cell rotations that happen in the SHU? Right. MR. : And who would have been responsible to make sure that this, once the cell rotation happened -. MR. a. That’s not the reason. 108 Yeah. It would be the OIC. MR. : Okay. And so, would that be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is there one overall OIC? There is one for each shift. MR. : Okay. So, on that note, is it more for, like, the morning watch, the day watch, or the evening watch that would be responsible for that change? No. Whatever shift he was moved on, that OIC should have made the change. MR. MM: Okay. Okay. And at this point, if the change wasn't made, is there a way for us to know when that occurred? When they actually moved him from one cell to another cell? No. The only way you would know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, rewind and see. MR. : To see, you know -- Men-hmm . MR. : -- when that actually happened. But the cameras weren't actually working -- ME. ich, EFTA00064292

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 109 WR. GM: -- from 7/29, and this happened on 7/30. There’s no way, at this No. : Okay. No. : Go ahead. Next level? Sure. Cell searches. How often are Yeah. There is - I want to say they have to do a set amount. I don't know if it’s three or five. It was five when I was an officer. Per shift. They should be random cell searches. wR. WR: Is it of the general area, or actual cells that they’re supposed to be searching? Actual cell searches. MR. : And is that five -? : With the exception of the midnight shift. They usually do the general iii WR. QM: «Okay. And would you consider that, like, a policy violation? :_ Yes, MR. : If it’s not logged into the system, is it almost as if they never happened? : Yes. MR. : Go ahead. MR. : That's all I have. I know you looked into the monitor, the phone call that Epstein made the night before, on August 9th, right? And what is your understanding of what transpired? Like, how did he make that phone_call? My understanding is that his unit manager gave him the phone call. On an unsecured line. He placed Epstein in the shower area - that’s what my understanding - and he plugged the phone into an unsecured line, and gave him a phone call. MR. : And based on what we - based on the interviews - it looks like Epstein asked to speak to his mother. Right. MR. : And he asked for his pack and} 25 110 WR. WM: But there should have been cell searches done, by the C.0.s, at least five times? Yes. Per shift? Yes. On day watch -- -- and night watch? No. On day watch -- Day watch and evening -- -- an evening watch. -- watch. All right. Well, evenin Evening watch, right? MR. : So, if they’re doing those, is it just as important to log those searches into the system? : Yes. MR. : So, if there is no cell searches actually being logged into the system, on those dates, is that a problem? Yes. 112 pen (Phonetic Sp. *01:19:33) was not set up. MR. an. Well, let’s ask her. What is your understanding of what happened? —. That was my understanding, that he made a phone call to his mother. MR. : Have you learned anything since then? No. Well, I did learn that his mother was deceased on the 10th. WR. QM: «And do you know who he actually called? a. I don't. I don’t. I actually was present when we did get the number, and it NYPD, guy called the number back, but_I don’t know who it was. WR. QM: He actually dialed the phone? R + Mn-hmm. MR. : To check to -? Rather than doing a search, he called the number that they -- I think he did a search. MR. : == okay. : I think he did a search. And he called the number. EFTA00064293

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 113 MR. : From here? At the BOP? No. I want to say he might have called from his phone he had. MR. He had a cell phone? : Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to say he called from his phone. MR. Was this in your presence? Yeah. Yeah. It was. I was there. WR. QM: Did they bring their cell phones into the institution? We had - we got approval for them to bring their phones in, because they was doing an investigation. . Oh, okay. Yes. . And do you know if someone answered when he called? HE: vant to say a female answered, but hung up. MR. : Okay. himself? =a, can't remember. MR. : Okay. 115 rocess worked? =, If he gave him a phone call, it should have been on a secure line. Meaning, the inmate’s line. Because when it’s on the inmate line, you can listen to the phone call. You know, go back. You can monitor it live. And it should have been recorded in the logbook that he received the phone call to the number he received the phone call to. MR. : And should have he sat there with him, while the call was being placed? Did he identify that : Yes. MR. : All right. And do you know anything about there not being a logbook in the SHU, for those telephone calls? I know it was -. We were looking for logbooks. I can't remember if that book was one of them, to be honest with you, because I collected so many. So, I can't remember if that actual book was missing. MR. Okay. And do you know if WE actually did monitor the call, and log it? I don’t know. PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP =. can't remember. MR. : And is that the same person, though, that -- . You think? Yeah. -- NYPD --- -- detective. Because - yes - it was only one NYPD at the time. Okay. And it’s J. ? : Okay. I think it was QR. MR. : Okay. Great. Who did you say that actually provided him the phone call? His unit manager. And who was that? His name is VR. MM: And what is your understanding of what should have transpired if he gave him that phone call? How should have 116 MR. QM: You don’t know if he did or not? :_I don’t know. MR. : Okay. Do you know anything -? Did your investigation reveal anything that transpired during that call? | I don't know. MR. : No. So, you never found anything more? = never found anything more. MR. : How serious of a violation do you consider it, if the inmate had - in this specific instance - both provided Epstein the phone call, and put him in the G- tier shower, walked away, and not only walked away, but left the unit? And the inmate could then talk by himself. Is that a pretty significant thing, or -? It is. Because it was on a - again - it waS on an unsecured line. So, you know, you can't get the recording back, even if you an emergency and you needed to step away for a minute, you know, you still can go and listen back to that phone call, to see if anything transpired. EFTA00064294

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow PRR RPE RR Re rm CON Dw SW N rR OW ON DW Sw Nr “ a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 117 WR. MM: Sure. And why is it? Is it, like, a potential danger to other inmates in the facility, by being able to provide inmates these unsecured phone calls? I would say yes. MR. : So, it’s a security matter? a s a security issue. Okay. And what is your opinion on if, when = - Epstein says he’s calling his nother, and Mr. calls the number that he gives him, which we don’t have the number for at the time, there’s no list, and a male answers the phone. And then, he provides Epstein with that call. What is your thoughts on that as an SIS lieutenant? Okay. Can I -? Just rephrase it. He gave him the phone call, and a male answered the phone call. MR. ~ So, Epstein says, I'm calling my mother. This is the number. He calls the number. Mr. says a male answers the phone. And then provides the phone to Epstein. At that point, I wouldn't 119 of money coming in, through family members, or anything to that effect. WR. WEB: Now, if an endogen inmate wanted to make a phone call, what is the procedure for that? I'm not too sure how unit team deal with endogen inmate. MR. : Okay. I'm not too sure. MR. : Is it - have you ever heard the procedure that, if an inmate doesn't any money in the pack and pen, they can't make any phone calls, the unit team sometimes allows them to make a phone call on the legal line? I've never heard of that. MR. : Regardless, if an inmate is speaking on the legal line, it’s always supposed to be -- A legal -- -- monitored? -- a legal phone call. Yes. Where if it’s in this case, that an inmate that doesn't actually have money, if they do allow it, they have to monitor it. Correct? They have to sit there =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 118 have provided the phone to Epstein. I would have hung the call up. MR. GM: Right. So, a pretty bad security violation? was on the hone? name? is that also : Okay. Should he have verified who Yes. Should he have asked for a : Yes. MR. : Was there a logbook, at that in the SHU? I don’t know. I don’t know. MR. : Is there something called endogen (Phonetic Sp. *01:24:39) inmates? Inmates. Now, if -- : Yes. -- can you -? What does that mean? Yeah. What does that mean? Endogen is inmates that, you know, don’t have any money on their accounts. They don’t have no type of resources. No type 120 point and listen to it with them? They do, but they shouldn’t allow it because it’s a legal line. MR. MMM: Okay. So, really, the jegal line is only supposed to be -- Only for legal. MR. : -- okay. So, not only was this not done properly, they should have never provided Epstein a call from the legal line, is what you're saying? Is there another line, or, like, a “pack and pen set up to utilize for inmates that don’t have any money, that want to make calls? Like, you know how pack and pens are assigned to each inmate. Right? : Yes. MR. : Now, if it's an endogen inmate, and they wanted to make a phone call that's not legal, is there a special code that the unit team can use? I don't know. I don't know. MR. : And if the captain, if there was a conversation between the captain and the EFTA00064295

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RR rPFCowW OND SwhN re RPRRR Ww = Wh RR SD 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP RPRRRR we wre RR SD ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 121 unit, with (Indiscernible *01:26:22) [, and the captain instructed him to monitor it, and log the call, what does that mean to you? a That mean you should be standing there, listening to the phone call. WR. Okay. And you should be recording it in the logbook. MR. : All right. Anything else on that? MR. Nope. MR. : Now, let’s talk about August 10th. Right? When did you find out about Mr. Epstein’s death? WE: Maybe about 6:00 in the morning. I got a call at home. I got a call at home, by the captain called me. WR. : Captain | : Captain called me. MR. + Mm-hmm. : And he said we have an emergency. I need you to come up to the institution. And I said, okay. What happened? You know, I'm getting up now. And he said, it’s Epstein again. And I said, okay. What 123 WR. QR: When you arrived at the facility, around what time was it, approximately? a. Maybe, I know it was before 7:30. wR. WE: And was he already gone, at that point? | Yes. He was already gone. MR. : And when you came in, what is the first step you did? a. I just started gathering evidence. You know -? MR. Did you go up to the SHU? : Yes. I went up to the SHU to take whatever logbooks that was up there, and that I could find. I went to the control center to look for the count slips, from the night before, the 9th and the 10th. The warden had took some of the count slips. He beat me to the punch. So, he did give me what he took because it was -. Everybody was just trying to gather up evidence, just -. MR. :_ We're just trying to get a -- MR. : On -- MR. : == sorry. RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mr oe RR ae ee RPRRR Ww Wr MRRP RRR Pow OAS Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 122 happened? You know, with Epstein. And he said, Epstein tried to kill himself. So, I said, okay. I got dressed, and I came up to the institution. It's not until maybe I was here maybe about 45 minutes, when I learned that he was deceased, and then, everybody said, wait, you didn't know? And I said, no, because I heard tried. So, and I remember saying, did he go to the hospital because try mean, okay, did we take him here? And when I got to there, like, no, he’s in the hospital. Like, he’s deceased, and I was, like, oh. Okay. MR. :Mm-hmm. So, when -. MR. Do you know if he was alive when the first officer responded to him? : Oh, I don't know. MR. Do you have anything, any investigative steps that you took reveal anything about that? Like, life-saving measures, like, to keep him alive versus bring him back? I don’t know. Just overhearing that they did some CPR measures. But I don’t really know who did what. 1, Oy. MR. QM: §« -- and on the count slips, did you find anything out about the counts that were conducted, or not conducted, that night? =: On the count slips, I just seen that they were filled out. They were filled out. And I think, I want to say the 10th was missing. Because everybody would run around, looking for the 10th count slip. I can't remember what time. I think the 3:00 and the 5:00, they were looking for. On the count slips. MR. MBM: When you said they were looking for it, where were they looking for it? In the control center. MR. : I see. Because that’s where the count slips would be. MR. : So, they went to -. And so, the captain, or the warden, went down to the control center, they were looking for the 3:00 a.m. and the 5:00 a.m. count slips, and they couldn’t find them? I don’t know who actually went in the control center because it’s my 124 EFTA00064296

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO RPE RP RP RRR rE rm SOW SwMre re COW ON DW Sw wr “ ae ee od WS Wr rs © Ww oc 125 understanding they were looking for the count slips before I arrived. So, what -. WR. QM: Did you do any vetting of the counts, though, to notice, like, if they count slips matched up with the institutional counts, or anything like that? Did I do any? Yeah. No. I didn’t. So, you didn't notice. Did you notice any of the count slips having, like, any extra writing on them? Like, 9S+1, or 73+1. Or anything like that? Hmm. I can't remember. So, you don’t remember. I can't remember. Okay. Do you want to show that? . No. I mean, yeah, if you want to, if you have it. Sure. MR. : We'll come back. So, I'll come back to that. I just had a few questions. So, when you came in, people were already in the SHU, looking for stuff? a. Yeah. 127 was conducted. You're going to review the cameras and see that the count was conducted. You know, it’s just to make sure, basically everybody is accountable, and do what they needed to do. WR. QR: «And did you do any of that, trying to ensure that those counts were conducted? Well, it was no cameras, and I didn't do an investigation, because at that point, once we notify OIG and FBI, we knew that it would be their investigation. So -- MR. : Right. :_-- I did no investigation. MR. : And do you know if the counts were conducted? I don’t know. Okay. So, now the procedures. . Well, on the same note, then. Did they eventually find the count slips? a. They found -. They did find -. I don’t think the 10th was ever located. It could have been. I can't recall. But I RR ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wwrerow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew 126 Pulling stuff up? That, it was only the captain He was looking for his His 292s and stuff to that effect. So gave me a few things. folder. MR. BB: | That would be Epstein's folder? : -- Epstein’s. MR. : Okay. Right. So, whatever he found with Epstein, he did give it to me. Whatever he found in the SHU. Again, the count slips were in the warden’s office, what they found. So, I did get those from him. MR. : What is the normal procedure if an inmate dies in prison, or, you know, a suicide happens in prison, what is the normal procedure on the actions to be taken? WR. QM: «Well, prior to we get into that, why were you all looking for the count slips? a. That's, like, a procedure, what we do, you know, we look at the count slips to make sure - especially with a suicide in SHU - you want to make sure that the count 128 know the 10th was the missing count slip. One of them went missing or something to that effect, that, you know, OIG kept calling me, and I'm, like, I'm looking for them, I'm going through everything, I'm going through, you know, we were trying to find. It was something missing. I can't remember the timeframe, but it definitely was something missing, at the time. WR. WB: But you didn't say, it eventually was found? . I — Okay. And do you know -- -- I can't remember. MR. : == $0, when you came in, right after you found out about the incident, did you come 2 to the SHU? Yes. MR. : Who was in the SHU, at that point? lot of peop! ot of people. ma I don't remember. It was a When you say a lot of people, In and out of the SHU. Like, EFTA00064297

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO nm w RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP PRR RP RRP RR COND WMH ae od rr 129 administration. Like, the captain, I think, was up there at the time. Or I -- MR. Was -. : -- I can't even remember what officers was up there, to be honest with you. MR. : Who was in the cell, at that point? Epstein’s cell. : Nobody. Nobody. Was that sealed off? The door was locked. Do you know who locked it? I don’t know who locked it. MR. Okay. And why was the door locked? I don’t know, but I'm assuming somebody locked it because they knew it would be -. You know, we would do an investigation on it. MR. Do you think it was a possible crime scene? : Right. MR. : Okay. And they sealed it up SO no one came in and out? Nobody came in and out. I got up there, it was locked. We took the 131 WR. QR: © 0h, they couldn’t find the folder? When They couldn't find the folder at all. So, whatever paperwork he got was stuff laying around. MR. So, he took stuff off the desks, and things like that? I'm - yeah - I'm assuming that’s where he got it from. MR. Was an inventory made of those_stuff that he took out of the SHU? Yes. MR. Okay. What are the steps - as an SIS lieutenant - did you guys take any materials out of the SHU, as evidence? What do you mean? Like, did -- Find something? MR. : == any paperwork related to Epstein, things like that, did you guys inventory anything? a. Everything related to him. Yeah. Because we brought it down to SIS. We turned it_over to OIG. MR. Okay. So, the -- =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr 130 CPAP machine, and different stuff out of it, we did. And.we inventoried it in SIS. MR. So, that’s a question. So, when you -. It was locked. Since did someone go in, at that point, to take stuff out? No. We didn't go in right then and there. No. We roped it off with the yellow tape. yellow tape. MR. : And then, of course, what about the stuff inside the - before we go in this room - what about the stuff in the officer's desk? Was stuff inventoried out of the desks? Taken stuff, taken out. Like, any : No. rm -- anything related to Epstein. Like, you mentioned that the captain Where was that folder -- : No. MR. : == taken? : We couldn't find -. couldn't find the folder. Okay. We roped it off with the took the folder. They 132 And we inventoried it. MR. -- inventory was done by you, not the FBI? : No. It was done by me. They signed off on it, well, as I was handing it to them. I had everything on an inventory list, of course. So, they were double checking what I was giving them, and they signed off on the chain of custody. MR. MB: «And that morning, the round sheets, where did you find the round sheets? : So, someone gave me the round sheets. MR. in the SHU? So, it was not -? It wasn’t : No. MR. : Okay. And Epstein paper. You said you took anything Epstein related, right? In paperwork. : Right. MR. : And, like, what kind of paperwork did you take? Ma: 00°. one or two 292s. I may have. was very little. I think I got, like, Whatever it was, EFTA00064298

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rR CWO D SWwrNP 133 MR. QM: §Do you recall taking this (Indiscernible *01:35:41) mandatory -? It says mandatory rounds must be conducted every 30 minutes on E; stein. : Not, I’ve never even seen that sign. MR. : So, you've never seen that? : No. MR. Okay. And do you recall any signs being up in the SHU, regarding Epstein? : No. I don’t recall. MR. : Him needing a cellmate, and your rounds being -. So, you don’t recall this in there, either? GEMM; No. I've never seen that sign. WR. QM: § Do you know who collected that, by any chance? No. I don’t. So, if you -. . Was it the captain that went in and collected a lot of this stuff? Is the one that -? — CSCwWOHUMDMS fwrP He did, but -- MR. : And was he the one -- 135 MR. MJ: And if there was one, where would it have been kept? I would think it would have been posted somewhere near the officer’s station. WR. WM: Okay. And what about the - now, let’s go to his cell - who inventoried everything out of his cell? a. My SIS tech went in, and she took what was in there, which was, like, some letters he had. I think some pill bottles And the CPAP machine was in there. WR. MB: Did you assist your - sorry, I wrote the person’s name. Yeah. Did you assist I? ‘ea I was up there. Yes. iow do you spell her last = — = S0, it's, L wrote it Zi. And first name is | a: Yes. 134 =... that was never -- MR. : -- that provided -? He provided you with some of this stuff, though, like, the 292s that you're talking about? Yes. He gave me the 292s. MR. : And what is that? Is that, like, the feeding -- : The feeding. -- and the showers? The showers. Yes. Okay. But you don’t recall this? I've never seen that. . : Was there any lists kept in the SHU, to say any special needs for some of the inmates? Like, if they are suicidal watch, and things like that, is there any special lists in the SHU for that? It should have been a hot list. What we call a hot list, that psychology would have put up there. Do you recall if there was one in the SHU, at that point? I don’t know. MR. : Okay. I don't know. : Vin-hmn MR. : Okay. MR. : So, did you assist her when - Cool. rm Yeah. I was there. MR. : == when she walked in -. You both were. : Yes. MR. What was your impression when you saw it? tike, what did you see when you walked in? Just, it wasn’t much in the cell. It was just more, linen sheets, linen stuff. Was there an excessive -- Yeah. -- excessive amount of Yes. Did you inventory that? I didn't. Do you know around how EFTA00064299

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rR CWO D SWwrNP many linens and sheets were in there? :_No. I don't. MR. : But it seemed excessive, though, for -- For Special Housing. -- right. :_ Yes. MR. : So, there were definitely more than should have been in there? :_I would say. MR. : Do you know why that would be the case? : No. MR. : What about the pill bottles? All those pill bottles, and you said you saw medication, things like that. I don't remember if they were empty, or if medication was in them. I know we just took them. WR. QM: 9 You start on them, actually. MR. : Yeah. : Okay. -- let me show you pictures. Sorry about that. I think -- Oh. No, no, no. : So, is this from the outside the second picture? : Yeah. MR. : With EP This is the outside. Yes. MR. : So, what is this wire coming up? Is that the CPAP machine? : Yes. MR. : Okay. removed it from the cell? Yeah. And you said you We took the CPAP machine. WR. WM: Okay. And the CPAP machine only extends to right there? I can't remember where it was located at. I just know she went, you know, took it out. MR. : So, what -. MR. : Was there - on the CPAP machine and that cord specifically - was there any indication that he may have used that to strangle, to attempt to harm himself, or 138 MR. MM: Because we have pictures from MR. ME: | ho took the pictures? Do you know? vs. i. : Okay. Okay. That’s okay. Yeah. So, what I'm showing you are inside the SHU. Okay. Is that Epstein’s cell? This is -- On the top. es. And that’s the -. You guys The tape on it. Yes. -- the tape on it, to make 140 someone else attempt to harm him? : No. Just the, like, the - just the CPAP machine with the cord. MR. MM: So, was the cord not, like, disheveled, or out of place? Was it straight from the machine, all the way to where it was plugged in? i, can't remember. MR. : Okay. But there was nothing -- MR. : -- that indicated that he was strangled by anything other than the noose that they found in there? : No. i Nothing indicated that the CPAP machine or cord was used? : No. Hmm-mm. MR. : No. Okay. MR. : What happened to the CPAP machine? inventory. MR. : Oh, it’s still there? It should be still there. It’s in the SIS shop. In the EFTA00064300

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP 141 I’ve been going for a while. MR. : Okay. But yes. But that was taken as -- evidence? Okay. Now, we've seen a lot of the orange. What is that? Is that_sheets? They look like sheets. R. : And if you notice, there’s a mattress on the floor. : Yeah. MR. : Is that where Epstein slept? I don’t know. MR. Okay. Do you know if that’s where they found his body? I don't know. R. : Okay. Okay. be upside down. So, this might So, they were -- I'l] just -. . -- were all the lines and sheets, were they, then, if they weren't inventoried, were they all discarded? a, don’t know. I don't know. MR. : You don’t know. Okay. 143 HE: That would be the SHU officers. WR. WM: Okay. So, people in the SHU? : Yes. MR. : And was that at all questioned, like, hey, why was there someone’s linen_in there? I don’t. I didn't question them. MR. : Okay. : So, I can't -. I don’t know if anybody else did. MR. =. Okay. And if the cell searches were being conducted, would that be the time that they would actually take -- Take everything. -- the linen out? Okay. . So, what are we looking at, at this picture? Is that the AED (Phonetic Sp. *01:41:43) machine? > Yes. MR. : And what is this right here? =— ROW OHMS fwrNP PRR RRR RR OCOD Sw R mm nd MmeMmnNr Ww = Wh Re CWO HM fWwrNP 142 MR. MM: Now, this picture - sorry, I had to flip it a couple of times - it looks like it’s from the corner -- Right. MR. : -- looking into the cell. What are these things that’s tied up on? This, and like these? MR. : Yeah. Is that just to hang clothes? They’re clothes lines. Mn-hmm . Well, what about this? I don't know. MR. : So, there's a ladder here that goes up to the second floor. : Right. MR. : Okay. And it looks like there’s a whole bunch of items on top. And between the materials that's on the floor, and the materials on the bed, you said there was an excessive amount of linen and -- : Linen. :-- linen. They use them normally. MR. Okay. . Who would be responsible for providing a linen, or removing a linen? 144 HE: 1 don't want to say the word noose, but, you know, that’s what it looks like to me. MR. MM: Okay. And where exactly on it, is this on the floor? Is that on the corner? : I don't know from the angle. MR. : But you know of, would you know if this was the noose that was actual] This was -. : == used -? I don't know. MR. Do you know if there were multiple nooses? , — I don't know. I don't recall seeing. No. I don’t recall. No. MR. And where is -? What happened to the noose? : It’s in the SIS shop. Okay. Yeah. The SIS. Still to this day? It should be. When was the last time you I don't know. EFTA00064301

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RPRRR Oona MmMNrnNrnrry WN r Oo nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 145 saw it there? It’s been a while. I've been out of work for some time. MR. : Okay. MR. What is your understanding of how the noose -? How they got Epstein down? Do you know if it was ripped, or if it was cut? Or do you know anything about that? said. WR. WM: Okay. So, you never looked at it. WR. WE: Because no one said it to you? : Right. . : Okay. MR : But not when you were collecting this evidence, though, wasn't clearly, you know? Do you know if anything was still hanging from where he was hung from, or do you know if it was taken off of him after they -? I don't know. Nobody never I don't know. MR. : You don’t know. here. Right? MR. : MR. : -- bottom one here. Okay. : == I don’t know who took the pictures. I know she took a set of pictures, and then when the FBI came in, they were searching the cell, and they took a set of pictures. So, I really don’t know whose pictures those are. MR. Is that two mattresses, or just one mattress? It looks like one. MR. One. Okay. But so, I thought this picture taken, another mattress was put on top? a. Right. This look like two. Of course, well, it is two. So, I don't know. MR. And look at this pill bottles. There's different medications sitting on the top bunk? the SHU? And who No. That’s only one. Oh, that’s the -- Again -- Yeah. Are those things allowed in PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 146 would be the person to talk to about that? :__The responders. MR. : Like, the first responders? : Yeah. MR. : As in, like, Noel and Thomas? WM: Yeah. The responders would have seen the condition of the cell. MR. : Okay. MR. : Now, this is a picture. It looks like -- This is a -- a R. MBB: So, there is two mattresses on top of each other? > Mm-hmm. MR. : Okay. Let's go back (Indiscernible *01:43:26). Another mattress on the floor? Because I don't see two mattresses 148 HE: The inmates, I think, are allowed to have their medications. MR. It’s not something where the medical comes by? It’s because they're in the SHU, medical comes by daily and gives them the medication? The bottom of that. -- what is this right here? A mattress. -- is that another mattress? Yeah. It look like it. : They normally do, do a pill line daily. I don’t know why he had -. MR. a. Well, it’s dependent on the medication. It is. Correct? Some -- MR. : -+ some medication can be provided -- Because I’ve seen -- -- through self-care. -- yes. Yes, Right. : Yes. MR. : Some needs to be provided by the medical staff. MR. And that’s the picture of the noose. Something you guys took, or -? The one that we took. Yeah. EFTA00064302

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP 149 MR. wl MR. : Do you know if this is the same -- Let me see. MR. -- one that we looked in the other picture, though? a Not that. I don't know. It looks like that. There’s different pictures of the noose. “= Yeah. All right. And we've got a picture of bed. With all the linen on it. And that’ s all the materials that We on the ha} bunk. Okay. MR. pid you -. MR. You didn't take these pictures, thou h. ‘are R. : * Did you even go into the cell, at the time, to see all of this? No. They -. When the other agencies was there, and we were out. On the outside. 151 known, you know, and to start fires. Suicide inmates, that’s excessive for them. Definitely. MR. : So, suicide watch, or is, they shouldn't have -? No. They shouldn't have that inmates that came off of like, an observation, much linen. WR. MM: Okay. You would - I know you've been speaking - but you don’t know where exactly he hung himself, or where the body was found, or anything like that? a I don't know. MR : Do you know if - for instance, this, this looks like potentially where he hung himself around - do you know if this was placed back up there, or if that remained there, undisturbed? I don't know. You don't know. Okay. So, where is now? I'm assuming she’s here. Okay. So, she still works here? Yes. Oh -- 150 WR. MM: Okay. So, but QM is the one who took these pictures? I don’t know if these are her set of pictures because the FBI took pictures, as well. So, I don't know -- Okay. -- if you have hers or ; = I gotcha. . Before the FBI got in, was anything moved in the cell? No. R. : Okay. So, yeah. This is the kind of overall picture, and this is where it kind of, you know, looks like there’s definitely an excessive amount of linens. Correct? Qn these pictures, yes. MR. : And is that a security if there iS an excessive -- Yes MR. : -+ amount of linen? And what is that reason that that would be a security issue? issue, Excessive. The inmates been Okay. -- that’s what you mean. And she’s still an -- SIS. -- an SIS? Yes. Okay. So, she would be really the person - she took photos - she would be the person to ask about -- Yes. She did take photos. -- these things? Yes. : Okay. Thank you. Mm-hmm. No problem. Did she have any involvement with investigation? Was she here prior to your arrival? I don't know if she was here. Was that -? She wasn’t here. No. She wasn’t here. MR. : So, she came after -- : Yes. MR. : -- you arrived. And did EFTA00064303

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 153 you immediately say, go take photographs, or what did you tell her to do? : We went up to do the photo -. Tape the door up. We went up to tape the door up. I don’t remember at what point she took photographs of the cell. MR. : But it wasn’t that day? : No. I don’t think she went Because it was blocked off. So, We just took the Just so we could inside -. nobody went inside that day. angle you see of the door. show that_we taped it off. MR. : Did the FBI go in that day? a they came, yes. MR. : Okay. SIS did not go in that day? :_ No. : Just the FBI? Yes. Okay. Yes. Was there video taken, or We didn't take 155 I don't know. just ee I don't know. MR. : Was anything brought back? No. Nothing was brought back. But the disk with the pictures they took out there. WR. WEB: © Do you know, did you hear of when R&D, was any R&D officers sent to the hospital? I don't know if the officers was there. The supervisor, Mr. (Phonetic Sp. *01:48:57) went out to the hospital. MR. MJ: And when they go out on a situation like this, do they go to the hospital with anything with them? Like cameras. a. Yeah. You took the pictures. And he - I think he did the fingerprints. MR. : So, he did take pictures? Yes. It’s on a camera provided by Yes. And he took fingerprints I think he did fingerprints PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP any videos. MR. : Okay. Nothing? MR. Oh, no. Okay. It sounds like the FBI is the people to talk about, with the - as far as who went in there first, to -- : Yeah. They went in -- MR. : -- to take pictures. -- we just escorted them up. I escorted them u there, and -. MR. a. Do you know if anything - after they removed Epstein's body from the cell - do you know if they anybody went back into that cell? I don't know. You don't know? I don’t know. MR. : Prior to the FBI going in? : Yeah. MR. : When Epstein was brought up to the hospital, do you know what he was wearing? Do you know if there was an inventory stuff on the -? You know, the clothes that was on him. What happened to the stuff that was inventoried? 156 also. MR. ME: Did he also take a video, or just camera pictures? : Just pictures. MR. : Do you know where those pictures are? : On my home drive. MR. Okay. Is that another thing that we can ask you to send to us, as well -- Okay. . : -- to make it a little less, and then we'll send in an email out. MR. Yeah. Mn-hmm . MR. : Is there a reason -? (Indiscernible *01:49:37). Oh, it’s (Indiscernible *01:49:39). I was -. Because I had a binder, too. Iwas -. I'm just trying to brainstorm, see if I could get it to you guys while you’re here. That’s what MR. : Is there a reason why [J - sorry - that went to the hospital, took pictures on his personal phone, and texted EFTA00064304

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP RPRRRR We WN Re RR SD ee ee od Se wWwNr Ow CO nm w RR SwWOHNDN FWwrNP PRR RP RRP RR COND WMH a a ee ond We wWwrr Ow 157 that over to the AW? : I didn't even know he went to the hospital. This is the first I'm hearing he went to the hospital. WR. MBM: He said he was under the impression that the R&D did come in with the camera, but they left without taking any pictures, and they took the camera with them. a. I don't know why he was under the impression because he brought the camera back, and I downloaded the pictures off of it. WR. MM: Is there any policy about just anyone, you know, C.0.s, any BOP employees taking pictures on their personal phone, for suicide, or an one like that? You shouldn't be taking any. Are you familiar -- Any pictures. -- if there's any policy like that? HE: don’t know if it’s a policy. I don’t know. WR. MM: But as far as you know, you never got those pictures? : From Mr. | og 159 went in the cell first. But I did hear was Mr. Thomas, Ms. Noel. I heard Lieutenant I, and I don’t remember who it was from medical. WR. MM: As far as when he was found, though, was it your understanding that he did whatever happened to him, to himself? That's what my understanding was. WR. QM: © Do you have any information at all that would suggest that Epstein did not harm himself, and that someone else harmed him? 1 No. No. Did he have any threats from I don’t know. Okay. Anything else? : Nope. Did you ever interact with Epstein ‘while he was at the -? When I did the first suicide attempt, allegedly. MR. : After that. any interactions? Have there been =— ROW OHMS fwrNP —— wr RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mre oe RR ae ee RR i) MRRP RRR RRR POoOwCmBADH ew Mmmenmrn Ww Wr Yeah. 7 Okay. Do you have any questions in re ards to that topic? Have you ‘heard - did you hear anything about doors in the SHU being left unlocked? =a Was there ever any issues about C.0.s possibly leaving the SHU doors unlocked, the tiers doors unlocked, so it’s easier to walk in and out? a: I don't know. MR. : Okay. What about cell doors? Did you ever hear any rumors about possibly that cell doors in Epstein’s tier was left unlocked? No. I never heard it. MR. : What is your understanding of how Epstein -? Of what happened with Epstein? My understanding was, they found him, I guess sitting on the floor, with a rope around his neck. And I don’t know who 160 HE: No interaction. I just seen him in attorney area because he did his attorney visits pretty much all day. So, if I would walk by and see him, I will step in and ask him was he okay. Normally, he will just give the thumbs up, and you know, I will walk away. But if I see him, I definitely will ask. You know, you okay, anything you need? And he will just throw the thumbs up. MR. MM: Was he given any special privileges here at the MCC? : Not that I know of. MR. : Being that -. What is your understanding about him having attorney conference every day? Did you know that he was in attorney conference pretty much every day, from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.? : Yes. MR. : Was that something that was afforded to other inmates? I’ve seen it done before. Okay. Yes. So, it’s happened in the EFTA00064305

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rR CWO D SWwrNP RPRRRR We WN Re RRR CoN DD a de ood SWwWNr Ow nm w RR SCwWOnHtDUN SwWwrP 161 Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, it’s not just him? Do you know which No. We don’t need to -. Okay. I don't know. I got nothing else on the - So, these are - when we were talking about count slips previously - this is what I was talking about. So, do you see, all these other counts, this was the 10:00 p.m. count on August 9th. All these other count slips have crosses all over them. They're checking, you know, say, from our understanding, it says as one, d ft things come in, they check them off. + Mm-hmm. MR. : Well, these two that one is from R&D, and one is from the SHU, one) they don't have the check marks coming off of; and two) they ZA one, which is the SHU, says 73+1. And the R&D says 9S+1. Do you know anything about that? you, that those things are on there? Yes. : Okay. Yes. I would have sent this back because plus one -- : Or it -- -- doesn't tell me - -- it may have been the people that were doing the count, that wrote it, is_actually where the thought is. Oh, I don't know. But you don’t know. I've never seen a plus one. : Okay. In terms of, if there is possibly a suicide, is there, during training, are C.0.s taught what actions to take if they think that there's a possible suicide attempt ina cell? : Yes. MR. : What is the training? We get suicide prevention training yearly, during annual refresher training, the psychology conduct mock exercises. PRR RR SwWwKN PCW OHMS SwMN Pe RPRRR oN Du ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 162 No. I don't know what the plus one stands for. MR. MM: No. Do you know anything about, like, ghost counting, or anything of that nature? I've heard them ghost count before. If an inmate was in medical during a count. Would they put, like -- One. -- a plus one on the slip if they’re ghost counting? : I've never seen. I’ve never seen a plus one, when I’ve taken a count. : To be honest with you. never seen a plus one. MR. —. And when you said that you were handling the count slips, or collecting them, did you remember seeing anything like that, with the NS+1, or the -? I don't remember. You don’t remember? I don't remember. Is that very abnormal to 164 MR. QJ: And what do they teach you? Like, if you see something. If you see possible suicide. What is the C.0. supposed to do? HE: ist, you're going to yell for help, or for a supervisor, but when you have another staff member with you, you could open the door and attempt to free that person, if - for instance - if it's a noose or something to that effect. MR. MBM: | They don’t have to wait for other C.0.s to respond? Well, it is recommended that you have somebody with you. MR. : Okay. It is recommended that you have somebod with you. MR. a. Recommended, not required? I've I don’t think it’s required. Is there part of the security part where it could be a rouse to get you in, and then they could overthrow you? a Absolutely. MR. : So, is that why -? So, EFTA00064306

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rR CSCwWOmOANDMDS fWwNHP 165 our understanding was that it was actually a requiresent that you're not supposed to go in - By yourself. -- by yourself. Just in case there is a fake attempt or sth to get in you. eng else? Nope. T got nothing else in my line of oust oll Great. Yeah, no. So, there tS no, nothing for you to believe that Epstein did anything other than take his own life? OW Okay. And then, that these other things were just systematic failures. What do you think overall led to Epstein being able to take his own life? a. I want to say the systematic failures, the breakdown with, you know, although we don't know the previous attempt, we don't know the logistics, right? So, if we know we had this inmate, we should have been 167 No. You guys pretty much -- : Yeah. -- much asked -- No. I know we -- : == everything. MR. : == we covered a lot. Great. wR. QM: Well, thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. Yeah. Can we just have -- No problem. MR. : -- her initial? MR. . MR. : Okay. So, the thing that, we just - so that we know we talked, that all these have to get attached to the recording. If you could just initial. For instance, this pack. Just initial the top photograph, because there's anything -- : Okay. MR. : == $0 you don’t have to go through none of them. But the things that we discussed, if you don’t mind just -- No problem. PRR RR SwWwKNrPOCOW OHMS fWwNP RPRRR COND ee od Wr Ow mrNm oe Re CWO HM fWwrNP 166 watching him a little bit better, I think. WR. QM: So, do you think the main reasons would be, if counts and rounds weren't being conducted, would that be a big factor into why he was able to kill himself? Yes. I would say so, because is walking around. What about the fact that he tin t have a cellmate, and he was supposed to have a cellnate? That, as well. Do you think one of them is vote “important than the other? Or do they go hand_in hand? if you know nobod a they go hand in hand. Okay. So, they’re both as = -- as important. Is there Seyerinn alse, aside from those two main issues, that you think led to Epstein’s death? a. I really can't say. I don't know. MR. QM: | Okay. Anything that we didn't ask you, that we should know about? 168 a: -- jnitialing and dating. And today’s date is -- The 23rd. Correct? : -- correct. So, 9/23/21. Oh, I feel special. I got a new pen. i. Oh. had the other pen. There goes that. I just Okay, there you go, sir Yeah. I apologize. Okay. And it goes government pens. Anything else? No. (Indiscernible *01:59:01). Indiscernible *01:59:15). Okay. Thank you very much. : Yeah. No problem. MR. : Is that all of it? The things we covered. I'm just looking for -- You have the most -- -- oh, that’s everything. -- beautiful handwriting EFTA00064307

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169 170 I think I’ve ever seen. It’s like calligraphy. CERTIFICATE m: Oh, really? I thought it I hereby certify that the foregoing pages was, like, chicken scratch and all over the represent an accurate transcript of the . electronic sound recording of the proceedings . : No. And once I saw it, I| before the Department of Justice, Office of the was, like, wow. ie is pretty impressive. Inspector General in the matter of: + Okay. a. Okay. You want to end Interview of it? WR. WB: Yeah. So, we’ve going to end the interview. The time is 11:19 a.m. on ee 23rd, 2021. This is Special Agent EE Transcriber I'm ending the interview. EFTA00064308