DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSP SERVICES Suite 285 301 EFTA00062970

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APPEARANC OR GENERAL OFFICE OF THE EFTA00062971

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Ne] WwW WwW name Wo ee : The recorder is on. My U.S. Department of -or General, New 1 t oc nw ct wi rt a N o N t fu 3 A. rt 7 o rt b 3 o bh at the or the EFTA00062972

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1 name? To start, again, I am D Ww are my y 6 credentials. co And can you say a0 3 p 5 is) J oe P A stigation into 21 surrounding circumstances, and you are being d to voluntarily provi - Will 1) 1) ct a] ua 24 interview with the DOJ EFTA00062973

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 es : Thank you, sir. This is a form that we give to our voluntary - or to our employees who are requested to provide information on a voluntary basis. It says, United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if do not choose to answer our questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there’s a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have EFTA00062974

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1 been made to me, and no pr coercion of So, you is form. agree with it and understand it, you ts] 6 then print your name where it says employee’ 7 name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) 8 if you’d like. QO name right here? 2 employee signature. And then, you can just wo 3 print your name underneath, where it says -. 4 Okay. 7 Thank you, 8 sir. 9 signature of Office Inspector General cial Agent, and I am printing my name below. 22 and the time is -- N a No y) oo lo oo EFTA00062975

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al 6 ee: Did you understand that Ww right hand? Do d nothing but the truth fer) I o rt 3 D x Oo Bb ' EFTA00062976

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thing? did you go to Eee : And when did EFTA00062977

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Ww 7 served with the Federal 9 0 on duty date? 2 ee : Thank you, sir. And do 3 you recall when you 4 training, around, like, the - 5 a : I can't. I don’t remember. 6 HS: Would it have been right 7 away, in 2002? 8 as a little later. 9 you’ve attended it 20 21 that is correctional 22 FLETC? Great. And what sition with t EFTA00062978

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9 3 : And what 4 position entail? 5 WS: «tt just means that, you know, 6 I’ve worked every post, and I’v m o o 0] 3 re) 5 | Worked about 8 more trained than the people that’s now getting 9 hired. WwW a wu K o you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 21 mcc GQ an het w 5 a ig i= Gc uw rt oO imi Nh Oo Re n’t a big deal to me. And do you EFTA00062979

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] 11 a : Meaning that, he’s just - he was being processed through was somebody the federal government for committing a crime. ee : Okay. What about after the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news attention and everything that had been placed upon it, did you think it became a little bit bigger of a deal then? how, you know, the job was treating them. You it was a big deal of “ know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide watch. ee : Okay. And you’re saying that based upon the fact that he killed himself? a : Okay. And we can get into that more later. What was your position at the MCC in July and August of 2019? a : If I remember correc internal number two ee: Okay. I'm sorry. Were you a senior officer specialist -- ct i he ~ H = wu 3) EFTA00062980

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N WwW wo very knowledgeable correctional well? Perfect. And responsibilities cribed? Basically, like, a € offi Yes. n K @ 7) interactions or involvement with Epstein during his stay at MCC? No. WwW wo Nh No a N Did with him at all? No. communicate No. ee : Did you see him at all? a : I seen him once. I think he time. down on suicide watch. working at suicide watch? was And were you No. I think I was , or what p and, have know, internal. You know, was you we of staff. So, I wear many different EFTA00062981

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b Wo Ne] WwW ‘ I know I did b n 6 suicide watch, y remember, w, you have acted as the activities lieutenant, thou Ne] WwW 5 and 10th of 20 wo EFTA00062982

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14 Ne] WwW -- receipt, and I’1l try roster for both Friday, August 6 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2 7 taken the liberty [3] f just highlighting your 2 number two. ee : So, on August 3th, you and then, WwW 5 a : No, now, which one day 6 of? 7 | ti‘ aié‘ésll And so, we got the day 8 leading up to it will be the 9th. p.m. EFTA00062983

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2 Great. And then, 3 the Saturday, August You were internal number two, on from midnight through 8:00 a.m.? 7 Ee : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in ca n a) wo we ask you about anything -- 11 | tti‘iai‘éwl -- with regard to, you 2 know, either you or other people that were WwW working on that, on that day. So, as - let’s n 4 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 5 state that you were control number What 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? ? or control number on om Control number on mo fee} wo 2) o 0 ct 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to midnight shift. 4:00 p.m. to midnight Duties entail of , you know, being EFTA00062984

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16 N WwW e camera, and we cameras a little bit. We popped 5 doors. We answered phones. If anybody 6 calling, asking about their loved ones that are So, you’re in the control 3 9 0 . 11 : Are you one of two 2 in the control center? Ww K 0) n control number ion Pp Mh al it) a] oO 4 a Oo control number two oO 5 oO 0 Hh Mh fa Q 1] ie] QQ ie) 1) n fu ie] ct a om o Ph Hh b- Q i] RK y.- Control number one offic wo oO 1g officer actually, u know, popped the doors, do all the 21 paperwo paperwork, like, if they’re coun ct U s, you fill 24 out the paperwork? EFTA00062985

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Ne] WwW WwW listening Answer it. y And is suppos Q wu b 0) during tft a : The count: pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is listed on this sheet? a: -- internal number two. , CNA is internal EFTA00062986

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WwW wo WwW wo Nh WwW o 7) ee : All right. And what about for, on August 10th, 2019, for internal number two, from midnight throu a.m. What were your duties responsibilities? number two. count. Ge a inmates move from one unit to unit. Answer the ph when you say inmates move from unit the unit, do you mean, like, keying them into different -- A them into -- U keying them out € 5 them out of a -- a : -- out of a housing unit, and moving them to the next. EFTA00062987

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Ww co paperwor somewhere? re talking about In the not only ar om and filling out the actually physically going | ti‘ aié‘ésll And where are you going a : Nine North is a at that time - I and unit two. And uth. What is Nine North? b ive} EFTA00062988

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2 ¢ 3 30, t always t internal number two « unts Nine North? co 9 internal number two set up for their post. 0 4 a : Basically, we help was working as the internal 6 officer, and you needed my help to, you know, use you know that I'm sed to help you. o 20 I 21 to count both sides of 11. EFTA00062989

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ntrol number - I , 3 mean, is it number one, that we’re 4 talking 5 HN: Control number two. 6 ee: ntrol number one is co QO number two -- 1 a : Control number one -- 6 7 1trol number two 8 actually is the one rol per who is EFTA00062990

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10th, 2 4 that on Saturday, Augu 019, when 5 were internal number two, ur shift, and helped with the cay. But as their wo 0 internal number two, you were actually t the counts and writing in the documentation? 2 a : I'm taking count, and also, I'm going upstairs to actually physically do the WwW wu 4 count. as) Cc t 7] if] one, h y before, you weren’t wo ed to be involved with the 21 a : No. The only thing I do is you comple ( r 11] ct > i) count and you verbal, I announce and 24 it on the radio, I log it in the logbo Junt. I announce it 55 22 EFTA00062991

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I ct p 0) KK wu dio. Write it in the logbook. Clear count. No WwW 4 - and I'm sorry to pop but on gust 9th, 2019, when you were control 5 Friday, Au 6 number one, who would you be primarily be working with? 8 a : At that time, n WwW 7 if he was internal number two. 9 would be working t 21 I was with QR that day. I think it was a. and then, he went home, because really don’t think EFTA00062992

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Ne] WwW WwW went home at 10:00. there by lf for a -- probably was in remember. I o mys can't remember. d to go had to go control number one, Like, when p.m., two people in 24 EFTA00062993

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ow oO wo wo a : Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. ee : So, that’s what I mean. So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the count happens after the person - control number two - leaves. Right? a : Yes. So, control number two is supposed to print up everything, and since he’s off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork that he generated, and do the count for him. | tti‘iai‘éwl Okay. So, control number one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. count. Correct? a : Control number one is not responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if you are in there by yourself, now that’s your second job. ee : Okay. So, who is responsible for it, then? HN: Whoever is supposed to be posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It’s two different. Like, see here, we have a lot of job titles that kind of, like, they took from us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever EFTA00062994

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1 time control goes in. At this time, when he 2 was on eights, when he was on eights, every 1ift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. My fault. 4 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 12:00, and then, 12: 5 8:00. When CNA comes in ning watch is 4:00 to control one comes 7 When ening watch comes 8 in, control two comes in. Now, somebody, wo know, had a big idea and you need 0 to, you know, we need to generating money. We need to modify the we don’t need 2 two people in control. modified the 3 hours, and made control number two. Yeah. 5 a : From that time. 7 point, though -. wo | | 2 1 WS: -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- to 10:00 -- N ho | i N a | | m saying, it’s, like, if they’re EFTA00062995

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_) Ne] K i) n and the count is being WwW | ' 6 before, too. It sounds li on 1 a : -- took the count. 2 ee : -- who took the count. WwW 6 I'm getting confused with all this. th, 2019, 9 as control number o you would have taken the 20 21 f my name is on that d have been in there with you to EFTA00062996

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wo wo ee : -- it would have just been you? Okay. getting confused. A as U All right. Because I was rh wu Har All right. And then, as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number two, you would have also taken the count. Correct? HE: «She 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a : Yes. If they filled that post, there, so, they filled that post with overtime. So, that was me. a : So, I did that post. I worked that post. I generated the El. I went upstairs, conducted the count on the two housing units that I have to count, and then, I would go back downstairs, and finish the count on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me up, saying, hey, 14, and I would this is EN with the count of good count, bad count, and then, cross it off the on paperwork. talked about who you worked with on August 9th. EFTA00062997

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Ww co Ww can remember. I'm helping to llecting count you slips, ‘ing, re) c N EFTA00062998

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Ne] WwW report to all (Indis only thing I could that’s cernible documer would cto on cry with him. Oo is iad 1) u. And Are you h both times, because relies was two know - I *00:21:20). The was what I was could all I do. Well, p EFTA00062999

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N N Nh Nh No wo wo i) WwW uw a : Yeah. It shows her name. reporting to. Okay. Were you previously interviewed under this investigation? a : Yes. You know, the first time. Ee : Were you interviewed more review the repo that interview. I just want you to - I'm not going to provide it to you because it’s written on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was present. So, it’s our information to have. So, I’ll read it to you. And just, if you can wu. =] is] st stop me if there is anything in there that bh 7] =] Oo rt a] Q a Cc al rl] rt 0) So, it say »té«@R Senior Officer Specialist at the Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional that, and it says, yada, yada, yada. \ interviewed at the United States Attorney’ Office, Southern strict of New York, 1 EFTA00063000

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wo wo Wo No Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for the interview were FBI Special Agent | a. FBI Task Force Officer, TFO Ft a. Office of the Inspector General Special Agent a. and Assistant United States Attorney a AUSA || advised || that the interview was in lieu of an appearance before the federal grand jury, and is voluntary. SA | provided | | with an OIG Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis form, which || signed, and was witnessed by SA's | | and i. SA || retained the original, and a copy is attached in the 1A section of this report. After being advised of the identity of the interviewing investigators, and the nature of the interview, [JJ provided the following information. || worked for Corrections Corporation of America from approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started working for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 2019, | | was assigned internal two on the morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. This post helps with the count, getting paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00063001

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not require help for the count because there are officers stationed in those units that do the counts. During the morning watch shift of August 10th, | | prepared the count by getting the paperwork together. Officer i. as the control officer, took officer’s phone calls, receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an officer calls into control with the count for a particular unit, control advises if the number was a good count or a bad count. Control has many different functions. So, when an officer calls in a count, control takes the officer’s word that the count was conducted. || didn't think that control received the verbal count from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. However, he could not say for sure because he wasn’t the one taking the calls for the counts. | | was assisting in doing the counts in the other units. || signed off on the counts because during that shift, he was the senior ranking officer. On the morning of August 10th, 2019 -.” Is that all correct? 33 EFTA00063002

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ioe) Ne] WwW aid that 1 a : We help each oth 3 a : Mm-hmm. You know, we help each 4 So, if I'm upstairs a and 5 little long to 6 up the pho the counts. and the 8 a: Now, if I go , I will unts, 1 know, it wu 20 come downstairs and I will 21 paperwork, , like, you pz 22 paperwork, I will let you do what you do -. u finish doing your té and I will take over where EFTA00063003

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Ww Ww fee) ernible with, lanation w know, everything else, you were involved the counts on the phon e, actually? inaccurate the way it says that she ly happ with e, and , but EFTA00063004

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oO oo wo o ine) Oo wo ine] Ww i=) an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want to make sure I understand, because your responsibility on August 10th was actually to take the calls, and take the verbal -- ee : -- counts. Correct? ee: Okay. Great. “On the morning of August 10th, 2019, a body alarm went 3 a.m. || responded to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, Ww off at approximately 6: along with another officer. The Nine South officers, medical, and Lieutenant || were already at the location. With medical performing CPR. | went to get a stretcher and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the medical unit. When emergency medical surveys arrived, they started performing CPR, took Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported him to the hospital. [J followed the ambulance to the hospital in another secure vehicle. | | stayed at the hospital until he was relieved from duty.” EFTA00063005

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ow oO wo wo Ww ~) recall any specific state that Epstein was in when he responded to the scene. || did recall that Epstein was still loose, because Epstein had to be put in restraints before he could be transported. However, there was no movement by Epstein on his own.” So, was Epstein still alive? a : Their policy states that nobody passed away inside the institution. Like I said, when I responded, when I got to the post, in Nine South, he was already doing, performing CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. a : They was already performing CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, someone needs to go get that gurney so they can carry him down to medical. So -- ee : And I understand -- WN: -- (indiscernible *00:27:13). Hs: 2 that you’re not able to say if he was officially alive or dead, but was he showing any signs of life? a : I don’t know. Once I see somebody performing CPR, that means something bad is going on. So -- EFTA00063006

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S) Ne N No i S) wo WwW wo WwW open? a : -- honestly, I cannot really tell you what ae: And the only thing I know, they was performing looks like. to ecause it’s been so long ago. CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if you’ re performing CPR, he’s definite have to go down to medical. call - even though this was a big incident, 1) and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or a : I can't recall. | ti‘ aié‘ésll Okay. yo acknowledged that he wrote a memo about the incident. This was due to the fact that when one responds to a body alarm, it has to be documented. | | did not recall any interactions with Epstein prior ” the end of And to Epstein’s death. that. ive) o EFTA00063007

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ive) ve] ND K i) 7) WwW 4 attach that. All right. 5 go over the count sheets that were done. Oh, 6 shoot. All right. So, these are just the 7 count sheets for the (Indiscernible *00:28:43). this over -. I'm going tom - So, this one wasn’t its) Zz oO 4K O 0 showing you, kind of, where I have highlighted 11 just the time, and then, I you know, what 2 we're particularly interested in, are going to WwW be RA and ZA. N ae) un wu o a n aul fe) KK 6 ect? 7 a : Yes. Nine South. The fee} wo ands for R&D. 21 ee : All right. Great. So, /2019. It looks like one for 8/ i) No a @ KK i) I rt) ct fe rv) i) on) ct S his was the 5:00 a.m. count. Correct? ee : All right. It shows in ) 7) EFTA00063008

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ow oO wo wo 40 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, it’s 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One in attorney conference. And one in -. Or I'm sorry. 75 that were actually physically present in the SHU. Correct? a : Mm-hmm. ee : All right. And then, we’re going to go back, and now we’ll start looking at these count slips, just so we can kind of get an idea. All right. On the second to last page, there’s a ZA, it shows 75. I just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, time 4:00. It says Noel and | | signed for them. Correct? a : Okay. ee : And then, attorney. It actually says three. A total of three, because they were from other units. All right. So, and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? ee : All right. So, we’ve got the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we get to where you come in. So, this is the i] EFTA00063009

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Ww Ww fee} ZA - which is rt it) All right. And would yal count, as well? ee : All right. And so, then, a : All right. And then, up EFTA00063010

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1 for ZA, 2 it looks and this plus one on the ZA, S, plus handwritine ¥, oh, well, punch in the EFTA00063011

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wo Wo inmate into the specific housing unit because the count down state 7] the count, you know, that, after, what? 8:00, If the count is being conducted you have until 10:45, I think, to punch in ar new inmate that going to a specific unit. So, at this time, I believe - because only a lieutenant could tell us, to ghost count. So, the numbers are basically, the numbers but on this here, are right, co wo N Nh N rs la Nh ine] uw cific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs s to be moved to Nine South. : Or that they otherwise, Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. a : Yeah. | ti‘ és Because RA, or R&D, shows zero. Mm-hmm. Correct? So, he’s in -. So, basically, he’s in RA right now. Because that’s why we got that little count slip saying Basically, he’s RA plus one. Nine South. He’s supposed to be Nine South EFTA00063012

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Ne] WwW WwW is - when -. Should this or is he HN: so. Ss That’s supposed - yeah - to be minus one, but I guess that t n and are you one who wrote this plus 1d this 9S+1? By looking at that. a : Now, this right here like my handwriting. a : The plus one next to the That don’t look like my Nine South, that nine and S right there is mine. . And is there a ed out? EFTA00063013

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uw 1 WS: don't know. Ne] WwW 4 person 5 chan of the SHU and put 6 internally, in you know if y 0 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you 1 did it 2 I can't remember, sir. 3 ee : All right. But in order 4 to do this, 5 Lieutenant would So, you would Q 20 And if 21 son, though -? 22 can't remember. rt p fii) Mh re Qa ct All right. EFTA00063014

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 was only 72 people in the unit? a : Yes. It would be an inaccurate count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that one. ee : All right. Did you drop the ball or did they? Because, look, I don’t want to say that you dropped the ball here, because it looks like, to me, there were 73 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at midnight, although this is 72 here, and this last page, it shows ZA, they’re still saying 73. And then, to get even a little more confusing, when I look at -. When you look at these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it starts the shift at 73. a : Mm-hmm. HI: then, at 12:35, number one, negative one SHU correction, Fernandez, dry cell. And if you go back to this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., it says, Fernandez was placed on dry cell from ZA. So, it looks like that was finally corrected at 12:35 a.m. EFTA00063015

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No WwW wo wo 20 N ras N ho N a Nh Nh uw Y- fw ee : So, does that help jog your memory at all about what happened here? a : No. ee : Do you think that, being that this count, this 73 matches up with this count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the midnight count slip still says 73, but at 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count slips, after midnight? a : Hmm. I believe so. I can't really recall, but it looks like I dropped the ball somewhere. ee : But how would you have dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 73? a : Because as you see right here, it So, something went wrong with the numbers. Something went wrong with the -- : vee. a : -- numbers, but I know for sure 73 that we had or 72 at that time, on those EFTA00063016

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] NS — ine] uw c= o ee : Yeah. No, I mean, so, our investigation, we believe, is showing us that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. However, the people in the unit were reporting because that’s what the documentation showed, 73. So, they weren’t actually conducting their count They were reporting what they thought the numbers should be. asking you, if they’re reporting 73, and your document shows 73, I don't see how you’re dropping the ball. Do you? a : I mean, somehow, somehow, you know, like, you showed here, on the highlight -- portion of me wanting - believes that you robably did this. S§& every count slip here £ ’ + is crossed off. Aside from these two. a : I don't know. ee : Do you know if these count slips would have been re-created? a : I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00063017

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That looks ; like | handwriting. andwriting. So, you know, N } Bb a7 tt) S i] bh 3) WwW you know, like, a certain type wo Sometimes, it happens. WwW count slips Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another you know, looked at it, 8 looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, I wo That could happen a : -- because sometimes, we 24 ee: Now, at the 12:00 a.m. agust 10th, doe EFTA00063018

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Ww Ww with Po was in there taking the count ones probably count? know. you said Q he oO is ldn’t be done before counts ha but these marks EFTA00063019

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wo wo on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 3 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, Correct? These have to be done at 10:00 p.m. Ee : But the actual Nine South plus one, and this -- -- plus one -- That’s after. -- can't be done after Maybe a little bit after. Maybe a little bit after because the count probably didn't clear until -. The count didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this probably was during that timeline, from either fe) w 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be brought about or generated. All right. Well, so, this person who is in R&D, it’s this person, like I just mentioned, Fernandez. This is an inmate quarter history. This person wasn’t removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. t necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. EFTA00063020

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wo No 1 a : Mm-hmm. 2 ee : When - again - she was 3 there. Ops Lieutenant | ti‘(‘zsd So, are 4 you sure that this Nine South plus one, and 5 this plus one would have taken place at that 6 10:00 p.m. count? wo were the case - why wouldn’t this have happened 0 well before the 12:00 p.m. count? again, this R&D slip, there’s not even somebody 2 there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at 3 the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person 4 have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. 5 count? Or y would have she caught it at 12:35 16 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 8 on their count slip? You follow what I'm wo n wu bP 3 Q N c Does that mal think 22 about them a little bit differently? 23 a : 73 is what the count is 24 supposed to be? ine] uw re) J No bh if = o wu t ct o @ Q fo) = =] t EFTA00063021

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Ww 7) So, this I dropped the I must h Correct? The count The count This one, count -- wo And you ave dropped the bal still EFTA00063022

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No WwW WwW so, have had to hap at mak know? And slip, put these plus s where the ple actually om oO sens Do you understand what he you? -- I know what he’s saying. Yeah. I beli EFTA00063023

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N WwW wo WwW wo NS Nh WwW Nh No wi uw a : Now, now -. 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn’t be messed person would have been keyed out. a : But their slip is still a : Their slip is bad. ee : So, the count slip is bad. That count number is good. That is the real count number. The this happen? To me, it looks like the SHU were just reporting the number they thought they were supposed to be giving to you. didn't realize that this wasn’t He was actually in R&D. He was in R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. count is bad. 10:00 p.m. count is bad. And finally, at midnight, it’s caught. So, I EFTA00063024

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don’t - the way I look at it - it’s not a drop the ball on you. Because you didn't know that that guy wasn’t in there. So, we’re trying to help you put the pieces together of, if this is your actual handwriting, when would have that happened? To me, it seems like you’re relying on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured it out is because she’s getting count slips. I don't know when this count slip would have come in, but there’s a count slip for R&D at 10:00 p-m., and there’s another count slip for R&D at midnight. But like we said, this is the one thing that’s bad, this is bad, if that actually came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in R&D. a : Okay. ee : But the thing that we’re trying to piece together, and what we’re trying to talk to, is two) because of when were these things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you know, notations made on these two count slips; and second, why are they the only two that are 56 EFTA00063025

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Ww co Ww fee} not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. t have no answer a : You don’t remember that - remember, at all, ersations had with the SHU that night, with regard to these counts? this person being placed in R&D. with the SHU, rt EFTA00063026

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WwW 4 fee} wi oo b i) 0) en next to her, though, if she was in control, correct? around this time, I kind of WS: No. St don’t | ti‘ aié‘ésll And is it fair to say, put these Nine though, you do not know when y S pli d then, plus one one fu a : Now, this is EFTA00063027

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Ww Ww a : I don’t think that’s me. But I know for sure that’s me. Right there. but I don’t at’s my handwriting. But it could a : You know, it handwriting. And I can't -- a: -- I can't remember. You know, a : It’s been a while. But EFTA00063028

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] NS — ine] ] oO) ever happened before? That you can think of. a : Probably. I mean, you know -- a : -- it’s not a -- ee : -- things like -? not a -. It’s not a, you know, it’s not a fa not a, you know, it’s science. You know? Mistakes do happen. Because we do drop the ball. That’s why we have to, you know, view each other, and be, you know, and work behind each other, and look over each other’s shoulder. It can be possible. So, any one that we’ve showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I’ve never seen anything like that before. But this has actually happened in the past, where you’ve seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine §S plus one? Sometimes. Like I said, you know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., R&D should have gone home already. Yeah. So, they have a guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, watching him. EFTA00063029

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Ww wo that should have thing caught it. EFTA00063030

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wu 1 a : -- maybe actually had fault Started, you know, ov N 0 K bs rt re) e You know? WwW a 9 3 ue] ha wu B- =] 5 a wy 5 fe) ce rr b- rt me known 5 that it was nine S plus one? to 6 have told you that there was wo called the SHU, and th 0 a : I don’t -. I called SHU or not. I probably was doing what I 7) 2 was told. Because, as an officer, that’s, ot) fan Oo =z hm a 5 3) = rt SI wu rt S a no-no. You can't put bh Kh ct a i] K oO wu ia oO 16 only 72 inmates in the SHU -- 7 a : That should have been minus 8 one. Like you said. wo ' | ey G ct rt ct ip tha was wrong. nt] 22 provided to you s nN Ww K i) ty] indicate i] n Oo jor ra) oO if] EFTA00063031

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ow oO ~—] wo 63 a : No. You could still do the count. I mean, you could still do the count, but if somebody, you know, higher up said, yo, this is what you need to put on the count slip, that’s what you put on the count slip. Now, you know, like, somebody dropped the ball. Ee : And that’s where, again, my opinion has always been all along that it was the SHU that dropped the ball. So, I want you to keep in mind, again, because there’s still Noel and Thomas. On this 10:00 p.m. one is Noel and a. On the 12:00 a.m. one, it’s Noel and Thomas. Both of their count slips say 73. So, if somebody told somebody at 10:00 p.m. that there was actually only 72, which is what I'm gathering you’re trying to say, why at 12:00 a.m. would of they continued to write 73? a : I don't know, sir. ©) that’s where -- WN: Indiscernible *00:49:33). Ee : -- and that, again, that’s where I just want to make sure we’re not tripping over ourselves here because that is, to me, highly unlikely that if you spoke to the EFTA00063032

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1 SHU at I p.m., and told someb No in R&D, they wouldn’t continue to 3 write 73 at 12:00 a.m. 4 a : I'm not 5 HE: «2 specially if -- 6 a: -- (Indi ernible *00:49:55). WwW 4 | : And I put 5 officer, who I'm prepari the count, : And : —-- correc Like, the lieutenant wrote her this, I should have took a ee if the numbe all jive last, from the last count. But I figured that EFTA00063033

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Nh h No Nh wo No WwW fee) wo rs rt B ct wo B 5 ite] O fe) io] didn't ee : So, if the Ops Lieutenant 12:00 a.m. count, her with this? No. ee : During that time. So, on this part, how would you be involved, if she’s doing it herself? the numbers before I gave it to her. uld have took a look at looks like this was printed out at the same time that -. So, thi 1) person was Ee : This El was printed out oO uo EFTA00063034

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1 the exact same thing. She keyed out this N person, Fernandez, from SHU and placed him in WwW R&D, at exact same time was printed 4 out. 5 : Yeah wo 7) 2 12:00. But this count slip says 73. The 10:00 in) ue] =| ie] 18) c =] rt its] an bh ue) wu bh n Oo its] a point being 4 is, I don’t think you did anything wrong here. 5 I think this thing, 3. They’r oO 16 providing you something that says 73. So, to 7 me, you're good. But the question is, when did 8 the 0) 107] e things come into play. One of these wo notations. 20 a : I can't remember. 21 ee : You can't remember? 22 a : I can't remember. But I know that Nine South is mine. 24 ee : So, you know that you EFTA00063035

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oO N And you believe you would WwW have wrote it, though, per the Lieutenant’s nant, would have instructed y , i P- 0] oc ct i) Ss iT] to do wo 11 | tti‘iai‘éwl And don’t you believe 7) 2 that she would have done that, told you to do WwW ct oS 7] rt after she realized that person wasn’t in 5 a : Oh, probably. Probably, it was 16 a miscommunication about where that inmate was 7 truly at. 9 think, re-think what you said, then? You said, 20 at 10:00 p.m., - 10:00, 10:30 + ou would have made those notations, but 22 now, does it make you think, oh, you know what? 23 the 12:00 p.m. count that tations? i) H 3 7] oh tt] ct 7 ie) un o o ) EFTA00063036

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Ww co Ww this ta I would will come back I Per her ins wouldn’t h known this i an db No, no, no, truction. did this s, you know, I'm not -- the whole concept. I'm simply talking about Nine South plus one. Oh, I don’t You know, I -. I 'm J EFTA00063037

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Ww Ww fee} het ould have So, if w would notic have -. And You would had to t i) be k ‘e} c wu 03) count, that this has follow me? Why wouldn't that have Especially if you noticed EFTA00063038

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Ne] WwW Ww 24 I can't really remember because that time. Do you Now, what time -- -- any -. -- what time did she come on With Or the El wrong, ».m. and midnight. Hmm. No. I truly can't EFTA00063039

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S) N N No Nh wo WwW wo WwW ini 1) ie] fu = r So, I have follow up on the ou did the 10:00 p.Mm., right? And I just realized something, this count slip came up, right? The 10:00 count slip came up, and the SHU is on the -. Right? How come the El didn't get updated? can't -. you’re doing the count, right? And we (Indiscernible R&D. 7e a body in Right? And there’s a count slip here. What should ha happened? her El What should had happened is fu 5 12] rt should have been generated. Like, c after the 12:00. I -. (Indiscernible *00:56:04) thi 1) 0 ne was, But that one was generated. o I just want to mak ure @ uw (Indiscernible *00:56:03) (Indiscernible *00:56:03) What is the normal procedure? EFTA00063040

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Nh No N N WwW on wo WwW wo ie] Ww gener Or no. I'm not too clear on for the 10:00 p.m. count, was this a : And being the fact that a came up from R&D, you’re saying that a new p.m. -- been do that. wu ct 0) io ion ce rt a] 6b om normally, normally, we don’t do -. Normally, we don’t generate another El unless somebody tells El. us to. But I just did a new a : Who would have to tell you a new El had to be a : Normally, we take it upon ean El. Like, I nerated? to EFTA00063041

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wo wo 20 N ins) ine] WwW No e Ss wu rt Nh Nh uw ~l Wo had generated a new El. ee : Should -. Okay. At that point, fact that there’s a body in R&D, right? And somehow, it got marked because a : That there was a body moved. Should there have been a flag that there was somebody missing in the system? Yeah. There should have been a u mz a : So, what should have happened? Was the count right, at that point? a : Paper wise, no, the count was not right. a : So, what should have happened? a : A new El should have been generated. The inmates name should have been, you know, sent to CNA, so we could process, to type them into stem. should have happened to the count slips? a : They should have been trashed, EFTA00063042

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No WwW WwW any anyone in the SHU that a : But keep in mind, this right? a : According to the count slip, a : -- in cus sitting in R&D right now -- | : Mm-hmm. a : -- because they h sitting in dry cell, and he’s watching over -- | : Mm-hmm. a : -- the person in dry cell, in R&D. Now that, when | sends to versation been EFTA00063043

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo correctional He probably was new. So, he probably didn't know, either. know what I'm saying? You know, he probably didn't know to call CNA, or -- What would he not know? probably thought that the inmate was know -. H o Probably not already in m, because he’s an El sitting on the post. but I'm saying that, Q front of with sitting in you, sitting in R&D. He’s sending you a slip ersation had like that versation EFTA00063044

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Nh Nh No N WwW on wo 7) WwW wo WwW ever Point you j happened that night? ee : Okay. And you’re just -. being on this, that’s your handwriting, ust don’t remember what happened, or when it happened? you’r would p.m. did t ticking with - you do believe that you written that stuff during the 1 count, and not after it was recognized at think that y his actually during that count? just what’s did that during count, wouldn't you have contacted the to let them know that their count is wrong? a : Yes. I think either A, either would have did it, or send it what I did it, but I don’t recall talking to Nine South and 7 EFTA00063045

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No Ds) iB ] oy T WwW vant, she said that she had the 4 conversation with t nversation with them during the 12:00 te} 0 don’t remember WwW slip, you do not believe r handwriting? 0 : 22 Ee : All right. And you don’t se I did take would have cross 24 count slip off, aside EFTA00063046

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10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 ee : And you know if you’ve ever done that in the past? I: kay. All right. all right. Let’s move on. If you do remember anything about that, again, in our mind, we’ve been going upon the fact that the SHU is reporting what they think the El is supposed to be, you know, the El says and what they’re supposed to be reporting. They’re reporting they’ re incorrect numbers, from at last 3:15 p.m. They have one less than the number that they’re actually showing on their count slips. That’s for the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. count, and even the 12:00 a.m. count. So, if you can remember anything with regard to that knowledge, but after the fact that we speak, you know, and when these things happened, we would so greatly appreciate you calling us -- a: Okay. ae: -- and letting us know. When we go through documents, rather than bombarding you at the end, we ask people to initial and date those documents. So, I’1ll just - while we’re at it - I'm going to show. 78 EFTA00063047

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~ s] a.m. count on August 10th, 2019, 2 was that you, as well? 4 : All right. Great. So, 5 this first El, it shows - again - ZA now shows 2. RA says one, RA says one. And 8 ZA says - Now, the ZA does say 72. So, they 9 changed from their 12:00 a.m. count slip, where 0 they’re reporting 73, to now the 3:00 a.m. 11 count slip, they’re showing 72. RA is, again, 2 showing one. Correct? 4 HE: 8nd would this be a big 8 ee : And being that this is, like, a big deal, this isn't at all sticking wo 20 out to you -- N c H 3 oO wu 5 i} | N ho ME: -— ening you that -. -- yeah, but, like, this is the N a Nh Hh b- a] n rt ct ime, you know, I'm talking about these ine] uw 3 br if y'all are the first people that brought EFTA00063048

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co 1 this to my attention. that until now? 4 a : I never knew this until now. 5 HE: 98d even at this time, 6 though, it was happening, no one ev 7 brought it to your attention that, dude, these 8 count slips aren't matching up what the El 3 9 0 11 », you don’t even 2 remember that taking place? M:N, sir. 4 ee : All right. And then, 5:00 a.m. count, created by WwW 5 here’ Or, you ey ow, it shows, again, one in RA, 7 ZA, or the SHU. And here’s the RA count one 8 slip. Here’s the 72 Noel and nN Hh 2) 5 t he) ha Q 7 b 5 wo | S 12) 3 fa n both printed out at 1:22 a.m. Is that normal? Nh WwW Sometimes, the computers go 24 down. EFTA00063049

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me down. rsonally, I know that Meaning that Sentry, wo 0 an hour Ne] WwW 6 count. fee} wo coming when th A i up a of the up from e computers nd running, count. : Within h, withi Okay. within Do you t conversations cal, normal up and running, to print it out the you mean? n the -- the hour of 3 I 3 Fa rt o n w ement count about, h EFTA00063050

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WwW wo n And again, do you mind cuments, just initial and e. It’s oo I I ie EFTA00063051

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b : Yeah. So, by you putting N your initials and dates on it, we can say, we 3 can positively confirm this is the document we 4 talked about. 5 a : Okay. 6 ee : So, we can't go back 7 later and, like, change something and say, no, 8 we talked about this document, and say, no, no, no, no, it’s got my initial and my date, you wo 10 know, my date on here. This is specifically what we talked about. Do you follow what I'm 4 ee : Just to show what the 5 documents you were presented, you know, what 16 documents you were presented. So, it sounds, 7 like, by when you’re saying that you think you 8 dropped the ball, it sounds like what you’re wo saying is, you knew that someone was gone from 20 the SHU, and it was in R&D at 10:00 p.m., but HU to let them know, if9) 21 you never contacted the 22 or to ask them about it? Or you just don’t 23 remember? No. I don’t remember. wu =] n cr N NS uw rs 2) o fu EFTA00063052

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oo wo wo can't help you anymore. You know, I apologize if I Since this is the first time I'm hearing about this, y’all bringing it to my attention. Pe SHU should have But you do agree that the been providing count slips that said 72, both at the 10:00 p.m. and the 12:00 a.m. count. Correct? Being that he was moved from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., the day before? Or on August 9th. part of your post orders. I do agree because that’s a And I, you know, that’s a part of our function. (Indiscernible *01:07:12) Yeah. So -- bad. And regardless of what you can remember, unt slips were oO the 10:00 p.m., or actually, the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m., and the 12:00 a.m. count slips provided by the SHU were all bad because this guy was moved to the R&D holding cell at least i] WwW :15 -m. Correct? ue) Yes. Yes. They all should be EFTA00063053

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S) N N No Nh wo WwW wo WwW oO 3 i) = om Yes. gain, though - and I want to be cle wu you putting 9S+1 on the coun plus one on the ZA count slip, that been by the direction of a : Yes. Somebody highe understanding of what happened to Ep t 9th and 10th of 2 a : My understanding is committed suicide. understanding of how he died? a: He died by hanging h Augu 7) information with regard to any suspic activi that occurred on August 93th 2019, his cell? ou. And ar on this t slip, and would have the Ops r up than your stein on imself. or 10th, m just co uw EFTA00063054

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N WwW wo 7) WwW wo 24 going to over issu suic es. t suicide these very generally. These What do you know of Epstein’s attempt o ing n mean, er off, or I called ly k ide now about his watch? was prematurely removed from don’t I me It out. Ss ay. Or attempt. was Now, And when t ay. Do you know. n, he’s hink o, I so. I was don't first hanging. was h then, alleged e being know if suicide was he required to have a cell mate? Epstein placed on returned to EFTA00063055

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fos) C oO p- Q Q wu a 1) Mm-hmm. 3 a : And so, if he tried the first 4 time, I definite No believe he would 5 again. 7 was removed from suicide watch after the first C 8 attempt? 0 speculation, you know, they said rumors about wo em, you know, since this case is Ww a] o oO jen w wu 0 Q oO un its] rt ie) p im o) paperwork. So, maybe, maybe his lawyer pulled in 5 paperwork to a judge, 16 said, yo, he 7 paperwork. I'm not too sure. So, you had heard that, wo cont warden? sibility. I don't know. 22 a : No. I'm too small on the food know this information. i WwW 0 oS iT] P- 5 ct Oo 24 : And who did EFTA00063056

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wo No WwW fee) wo mouth, o going on in the bu Some of it 1s true true. So But - all with -. Did ce, drinking. right - did know from? just rumors, and had But you warden? u know, I can't say know, what, you couple beers, this is what’s ilding, this is what I heard. not ome of it is uw o very Sure. know. I ca don't yo ot So, he was transferred. anything to do his 11 mate Efrain was word of EFTA00063057

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Ne] WwW WwW his name. But I'm work nights at all. heard that he was transferred, or released? his bunk that’s all I heard. Like, t know. how sur o being in in on August 9th working in internal and control, would have anything to do with WaS aware That that, with making su itution? not What time did So, what co ve] EFTA00063058

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wo wo time does the -. If inmates aren't back from court -- a : That’s R&D’s job. R&D’s job is to, you know, delegate all the courts, and we don’t touch that. Now, if an inmate comes in 7) late, like, you know, like you showed me, like if an inmate comes in late, or have to stay in R&D late, and I have to move him later, to ther housing unit, and put him, or put him in Nine South, That’s what I do. I just type, type, type -- a : -- transfer. go back to Fernandez. Fernandez out of the SHU and placed him into &D? a : Take him out of SHU, place him into R&D, it’s supposed to be CNA. EFTA00063059

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S) Nh Nh No N WwW wo 7) WwW wo WwW this happened at about the *01:13 (Indiscernible schedule for August 9th, should have done If it happened at about 3:00 in that? afternoon. he fh B- ct a my fe} fe} o 5 o on ny] cr a whoever was U afternoon, in CNA, We’ll explain the situation a little bit. He was a SHU inmate. He had visitation. He went into the visitation, and officers saw him possibly receiving contraband. though. So -- visitation, the SHU and moved him to R&D dry And moved him t ra) medical, I think, and dry cell. Does that make sense? So, would have been -? But that happened at EFTA00063060

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Ww 1:40, we just know by 3:15, at least, he was put into number two. Ee : And who was in that ion at that time? a : This is, it control was the one who was supposed to make sure that a : No, it would have -. You said >l1 number two. It should have been -. Well, who’s suppo d you -? All right. times -- ho EFTA00063061

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wo Ne] WwW wo Nh No But then, he was placed - at least - oO wu in R&D, according to the lieutenant’s log, 3:15, he was placed into R&D dry cell. So, I don't know. Well, if they found him with some to -. Would kind of thing on him, and he he have to go to medical first? a : In order for him to pass ee : Is that how it would work? to work like that. It’s supposed to -. Normally, we take an inmate working, we’re supposed to first. Go put him through the scanner. wo Wo EFTA00063062

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ow oO 10 11 12 13 14 17 18 19 he goes through the scanner, now he’s supposed to go an available dry cell. Now, I don't know if they used R&D, or if they used our HA unit. HA unit is normally where we put everybody for dry cell. ee : Yeah, no, this was an odd thing that they put him in R&D, right? a : And then, you know, if sometimes they choose to put him down in HA. Sometimes they choose to put him in RéD. Sometimes they choose to go straight to Nine South. If there’s available - Nine South - if there’s an available, empty cell. ME: ov. a : They will take him straight to Nine South, and put an officer in front of his door to watch him. a : If there’s an available cell. Because normally, sometimes, most of the time, Nine South gets a little crowded. So, we don’t have an available cell to put an inmate that’s supposed to be on dry cell. So, they have to figure it out, where are they going to put him, either in R&D, put an officer, or HA, put an 94 EFTA00063063

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Ne] WwW WwW But in this case, though, Who sh into R&D, Control number two. It tween || (Phonetic been in b 0 n think | worked that day. You said it was ee : All right. And this is the position that would have be m n for », I'm circling his name randez movement. uw EFTA00063064

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Ne] WwW WwW ay. What about knew that Re left WAB, but they believed he went to court, rather there an argument to be had that they thought he could p returned that work Nine a court list and it shows WAB next to someone’s name -- EFTA00063065

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wo wo just corrected us. Not the court list a : The call out. , but list. ee : So, if the call out list WAB” should they know th not going to return? someone in, like, control n would internal to do, at around the 4:00 cou at he’s there be nt, to verify that he is actually, in fact, not returning? a: No. Since Nine South only small entity, we try not to - you like, it can be -. You know, we cand ball. Like, if I'm control, we can drop the ball because we assume Nine South already know. Because they know, those men and women that work up is the know —- rop the EFTA00063066

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ow oO wo wo already know? a : Because they work there. But, like I said earlier, a lot of, you know, a lot of staff have left at that time, either they quit, either they retired, either that they, you know, found another job. So, we was lacking a lot of staff during this time. a : So, everybody is on overtime. If you look, I was on overtime. So, when a lot of people was on overtime. Now, like I said, maybe - you know what I'm saying? - maybe, if I was more diligent in Nine South business, maybe I could have said something. But I wasn’t, since I wasn’t working that post. I didn't think nothing of it. call out list, didn't you just say? So, if the people that got Reyes at 8:00 in the morning, produced him to R&D, or whomever that he goes to when it sa WAB, wouldn't the assumption be that he’s not actually returning? EFTA00063067

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wo wo wo O a : If it says WAB, he’s definitely not coming back. | tti‘ésSS And that should be known? nitely not coming back. So, if someone oO oO fh h says, WAB, if it said WAB, but we believed he was going to court, and there’s always th 1) rt 7] | 1a possibility that he could return. Ist argument to be had? If it says WAB. a : I mean, once in a blue, yes. Some of them do come back. Either one thing or 103) another, maybe they was ve the Marshal, or maybe the mind. Sometimes, it does happen. WAB, that he’s coming back. Correct? a : Yeah. But it does happen. Some people, you let go, I thought you was leaving. Oh, something happened. ee : Okay. Now, I’ve heard with, 18] that something happens if it has tod EFTA00063068

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] 100 like, a transport, if something was cancelled. ee : But if by, for instance, he leaves at 8:00, he’s WAB, by 2:00 p.m., if he’s not back, that means, certainly, he got off on the transport. Does that mean, basically, by 2:00 p.m., if somebody that’s WAB is not back, they’re certainly not returning? a : Okay. And in this case, if someone is WAB, would control have any - or internal - have anything to do with, at the 4:00 p.m. count, contacting SHU, to make sure that they’re aware that that WAB person, in fact, isn't coming back? | ti‘ aié‘ésll No? Okay. Okay. Do you know about any other -. I know we went over these counts that, you know, we said we believe are incorrect because the numbers weren’t right, that the count slips. Are you aware of any other count slips that were incorrect around this time period? a : Not to my knowledge. ee : No? Are you aware of EFTA00063069

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101 1 rounds not being conducted and being falsified 2 prior to August 10t 2019? 3 a : Not to my knowledge. 4 ee : Had you heard that the 5 rounds were not being conducted in the SHU on 6 August and 10th of 2019? 7 a : Not to my knowledge. 8 ee: Even after the fact, you hadn’t heard that, in the news and all that? 0 a : The news was saying a lot of bad things. 2 ee : And what about when you 3 said you go get beers with your buddies, even wo 4 hear it, don’t you? Didn't you guys talk about 5 the fact that the rounds and the counts weren’t SHU? 7 a : Whenever I get stuck to work 8 Nine South, those cameras might not see what wo the inmates do, but I know they definitely see 20 what I do. 22 a : Oh, my fault. I apologize. 23 The cameras definitely don’t see what the 24 inmates do. But they sure see everything I do. 25 So, when I'm up there, I try to stay on point, EFTA00063070

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wo No WwW fee) wo bec tho rou wor was und wer 102 ugh, do you know if ople were falsifying nd ee : No? Okay. Are you aware cameras e working on August 9th and 10th of 2019? a : I believe they was working. were king? a : I believe all the cameras were king back then. ee : All right. And then, had weren’t WN: through the media. When they talking about the cameras didn't work. erstanding of -? Do you believe that working? e working, and if we Oo iad Q pe 5 Q rf do you believe that someone delet a : No. I don't think anybody that EFTA00063071

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Ww wo ing or king not recordin Q ctional staff, to -. Who would have the higher ups. So, possibility. you’re not EFTA00063072

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Ne] WwW WwW about him not though, during the iileve so No. and five know if cell SHU in i) ing the night? know if they 104 EFTA00063073

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Ww wo | : To my knowle - i) mw las Cc t fe) Cc ) 0 S t 5 ) not being e the SHU, were they When wo I'm not sure about a : I don’t know sting with takir know about 105 EFTA00063074

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S) Ne N No i S) wo WwW wo WwW a : I don't know nothing about | tti‘ésSS Did Epstein take his own ee : And did Epstein act alone in taking his own life? a : I believe so. ee : Did you have any involvement with Epstein’s death? HN: No, sir. What would have prevented really not too sure. Once person h their mind mac up, 1 you when they’re going to do it. They just do it. This individual, I don't know. I know that he was facing a serious crime. I don't know if he wanted to do that on his own, or he was protecting someb don't know. But to try to prevent, I we kind of tried everything that we wanted, but he would have probably have succeeded somehow. What actions to prevent his death? 106 EFTA00063075

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Ww co him in suicide wa and had someb him at all times. But I mean -- | | y wv t wf > 0 c 5 mH f Kh b 3 and counts ee : All right. And what On G-tier, G-tier is But if he wanted, to hurt himself, he could have did it too. uld have did it on Ten EFTA00063076

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ow oO wo 108 ee : Okay. What are some of the systematic problems inside the MCC - and specifically, the SHU - that allowed for Epstein to die? a: Lack of staff. Ee : Lack of staff. Is it all a: Lack of staff. a : Yeah. And how could I -? Right now, we have a problem with lack of staff. The Bh staff that they are hiring right now is fall on the money. This job is not the first job that they apply for. It’s just the first job that called. So, with that knowledge, everybody needs a job. You need to pay your bills, right? You need to pay food. You know, you need to take care of your family, your wife, your kids, your husband, et cetera. So, when this job calls, they go. When you hear about the feds, you’d be, like, wow, the feds called Hh me for an interview. This is a top-paying job. Everybody believes it. It’s not the top of the food chain. Especially not now. In New York, EFTA00063077

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 the rent is going up. Everything is going up. So, this job is really just another job. It’s not a career anymore. It’s a job. You pay -. It’s a job. So, a lot of the men and women, they come, they see the headaches that we go through. And they look at their paycheck, and then, they look at the headaches that they go through at home. Because when you get your mandated every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, at first, your wife or your husband believes it’s good. The money is coming in. But after a couple of months, your wife or your husband will start believing that you are cheating. Because, like, this, you know, we’re law enforcement. All law enforcement cheat, right? What people believe. So, a lot of individuals that I talk to, they said they’re not losing their wife, so they quit. Or they moved on. Found another job for the headache. So, we always going to lose staff because the headache don’t outweigh the reward. HE: | Juice isn’t worth the squeeze? a : Yeah. And if they want to fix EFTA00063078

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co ~ oO ow wo wo 110 the place, they’re going to have to (Indiscernible *01:29:23) the money a little bit, maybe we get better quality. ave things improved since August of 2019? No. You don’t think they have? No. That’s a shame to hear. Well, speaking of, so that we can lock down this Fernandez thing, just to leave, this is - I was just explaining it to you - but this is actually -. So, here, for instance, is the actual report. It’s from | ssi‘ié‘ésS He was the OIC SHU, the SHU OIC at the time. And it says that the incident occurred on 8/9/2019, at 1:40 p.m. “On August 9th, 2019, at approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS a. while assigned as the Special Housing Unit officer, proceeded to enter the Nine South room, as I walked towards the door, I observed, through the visiting room door, inmate Fernandez attempting to garb an unknown item from his visitor. Once I made Fernandez reach EFTA00063079

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10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to grab the item, I called the door and called for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the visiting room, I gave inmate Fernandez a direct order to walk -”. Gave him an out of -. “To walk out of the visiting room, to conduct a visual search. Inmate Fernandez compiled,” Oh, “Complied, and a visual search was conducted. The Operations Lieutenant was contacted, and inmate Fernandez was removed from the unit.” So, with this knowledge, when should have he been keyed out of the SHU? a: He should have been - right now, since he’s in SHU - they probably believed that he was coming back to SHU. Because where is they going to put him at? You know -- a : -- it says, Seven North. So, basically, he’s going to go to SHU soon. So, they probably took him downstairs. It says (Indiscernible *01:31:18). It says, the unit says Seven North, and you said he was -- a : -- Nine South visitation room. Oh, okay, okay. Now, I see it. Where is that? Yeah. So, Nine South probably means that he EFTA00063080

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Ne] WwW Ww 112 keeps coming back to SHU. Because that you place all our inmates that has an incident o wu Q to Nine South, WwW we EFTA00063081

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WwW (Indiscernible the SHU. SHU. ’ watch and R&D. I'm assuming, n that’s when he medical, -m. That’ Wo All right. All right. hey beli when it And tha Would i ved -- 113 EFTA00063082

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Nh No No ine] N wo WwW wo ie] Ww 4 was up tak coming ba to in SH yes. They U. Because the we don’t come from medical. ist a, it wa s, lik Medical is just -. e, Okay, I call an inmate, from my ho down to medical. I'm could have y believed he out -- from -- at? Medical is you up to using unit, not ng to on the computer and take him off my unit. to talk to e him down he did No. him, to me if he went -. that, would th The PA will p but otherwise, dical. ey first take and then place him on dry cell robably come they wouldn’t 114 EFTA00063083

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Nh No N WwW wo WwW 8 wo ie] Ww 4 notification been made on the radio for control to ey know at 3:15 p.m. Fernandez was being placed from ZA to R&D? Es: «= So, control may not have him out. Corre 1't even mean arily, | would ha and told. Whose responsibility ntacted would it have him out, at that point? If a ordered th a : -- if, if a lieutenant ordered this, Nine South should have called control and said, hey, I got an inmate taken off my count. a : -- they should know before anybody else know. SHU - told the Ops Lieutenant, and the should have 2utenant waS aware, ld them? EFTA00063084

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Ww wo 116 wouldn’t be the Lieut coming off the Fp . v ¥- initialing and dating that? notifi on should a EFTA00063085

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WwW sometimes we have (Indiscernib and then, with the phone calls nible *01:34:55). Yo incident report (Indiscernible What’s (Ind *01:35 Ww make that phone call? They’1l listen, (Indiscernible *01:35: know about (Indiscernible *01: (Indiscernible a : (Indiscernib 3:15. Before what time should 2:15)? How long do they nor le *01:34: 55), , you basically u hav *01:35:02 35:26)? *01:35:29 *O] 2:35: ie ed on dry do y cell to that memo, in dry cell at ou that phone call 117 EFTA00063086

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ow oO 10 11 12 13 14 17 18 19 have came? a : It should have came, you know, an hour after -. Depending on how Nine South is moving. Because Nine South is - Nine South is lacking staff. We won't have a (Indiscernible *01:35:58) of the full staff. So, that means, if they’re doing visitations, or if they’re doing showers, if they’re doing medical, if they’re doing psychology, they’re doing all library cards and all this other crap, they are moving. Yeah. a : But here’s the thing, you said, the fourth count -- coming up, should they have made notification for the phone? a : Yes. And should have made it way before, before they forgot, because you can't - the longer you take, the more you could forget. a : Should they have made notification before the 10:00 p.m. count? a : Yes. They should have made notification a half an hour to - oh, no, a half EFTA00063087

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= K ive} 1 an hour to ten minutes after the inmate 2 (Indiscernible *01:36:35). 4 correct? 5 WN: Yeah.) Because the longer it 6 takes, the busier you are, you forget 7 something. Maybe you forget your keys. You 8 know? wo : We were informed that, 0 it’s happening, the movement, that 1 notification should be made. Moving inmate No Fh H oO 3 wn a rt fe) v8) fm D dry cell. WwW correct? It’s only, it shouldn’t occur. It should happen immediately. 15 5 to 30 minutes fer) =) iu) Fh bh 3 nm oO be ke rs] 12] rt 3 fe) K i) ct p u I wo did the count, as would they have realized the fact that there was an inma EFTA00063088

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120 2 £ they did the 10:00 p.m. 3c they there was an inmat co right? Is units? the wall. EFTA00063089

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a : When they do, when you’re in control, right, and they’re calling you, like, different units are calling you with the count numbers, do you look up to see if they’re actually doing the counts? a: Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. Because we have work that we have to do, too. Now, the person that’s taking the phone calls, that’s what you’re doing. You’re taking the phone calls, verifying the count with the El. The person that’s sitting next to you, that’s in control with me, he or she may be doing their paperwork, because there’s paperwork to be done. We have to count keys. We have to count radios. We have to do all the equipment inside the control center. So, if I'm doing count, that person may be doing the equipment checks. And/or popping doors. a : Okay. Do you recall looking up at the camera that night, to see if they were actually doing the counts that night? a : I can't really recall because I was helping out with the count, too. Different units. a : Do you recall, at any point, EFTA00063090

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10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 looking up - not just for that night, different nights - looking up and looking at the camera, and looking at the C.0O.s and realizing that, hey, listen, they’re giving me the count, but I know they haven't done the count? a: No. I'm not -. I mean, we relied on trust. I mean, this is a part of your job function. Your major job function. So, we believe that you should have had to have done the count, because Nine South has two officers. So, they count themselves. Any unit that has two officers, they count themselves. Everybody else, they’re going to need backup because there’s only one officer per unit. a : Have you ever heard of counts and rounds not being done at the MCC? a : I mean, you know, you heard the rumors from the news. a : From the what? WM: rom the news. a : Other than this incident, have you heard any rumors of any C.0O.s saying, hey, listen, I'm too tired, I'm not doing the counts, or I'm not doing the rounds, or one of them might be, they’re just not doing the EFTA00063091

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Ne] WwW on WwW 4 a : No, no, no. I haven't heard d the count sheets? Meaning, fill out the on shift, they forms, keep it, and sign at you know, initial it, fill it all out, and j 'o it) n ia bh rt ching like that? you can remember hing more about p.m. and 12:00 a.m. count, EFTA00063092

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10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 specifically if there were any conversations that were had with either the Ops Lieutenant, or the SHU, about, like, ghost counting, or about when you wrote in - if it was, in fact, you, who wrote on those two count slips - or anything at all, that you might help, for us, to clear up. What was done -- a : Mm-hmm. ee : -- and when it was done. a : Okay. | tti‘iai‘éwl Because again, in our mind, the count slips are inaccurate. You were going based upon what was said on the, you know, on the El. And their count slips were matching that El. So, for me, I'm still very confused on when that 9S+1 on the R&D, and when the plus one on the ZA count slips were actually done. I know you’re saying that you believe that they were done at the time of the 10:00 p.m. count, but being that it doesn't look like it was appeared to have been caught until after the - or during - the 12:00 a.m. count, I'm just still not convinced of that. So -- EFTA00063093

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N said you believe it WwW you would have wo 12] Even if someone was, 7) 2 count that WwW 5 saying? Like, there’s 16 which © = wu ct i] a] to you, you K oO n was gone would hav because to back you Al 1 done at the 10:00 orrect? you, you p.m., 5 fact. Le know only two hours after that 7 you don’t think you would have, that you did just right. e done it duri two being that it don’t think an earlier you’re saying? it was caught during a still had the paperwork to? what I'm count later, count, hours there? e 90, though - you’re pretty the EFTA00063094

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wo WwW wo then, would be why have caught the 7] in assigned to the SHU, and would have correc I'm just - used if that’s have a count Like correct, I should I'm And who w ted tt I be ld have caught it a Well now, when it happened, slip You should have do you believe that, Lieutenant would one person as actually in R&D, he El? lieve, I believe that more communication, like , it sounds the why that doesn't say on you know, if changed it. should have changed Okay. 126 WwW Without doing why I Okay. should have changed it. said I think I dropped the ball on EFTA00063095

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127 Ne] WwW 0 Lieu 1 a. and she didn't ma 2 12:00 p.m. count was on until the WwW K o wu oS little bit in 21 just wish that I, like, caught it and changed know, like, I'm u I should have just in, my main thing is, I think you’re beating surself up on EFTA00063096

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that because I don’t think that there was anything for you to catch. You didn't know. But I could be mistaken on that, and that’s where I'm just really hoping that, if you can think about it, and you can kind of put together, oh, yeah, that is what happened, or, okay, that’s what - that’s how it transpired, that’s how it went down. If you could just contact us, myself or Lyeson, and just let us know. That would be greatly -. We would so appreciate it because when we do these things, we got to be accurate. The highest levels of the government are going to get - or look at these things. And being that these counts are off, that’s kind of a big thing. a : Yeah. | ti‘ aié‘ésll Especially with regard to, you know, with the night before, and the morning of, Epstein -- a: Yeah. ae: -- being found. And so, we just want to make sure that we’re being as accurate as possible. I/’11 give you a card so that, if you can think of anything, you can certainly contact me. And we can modify EFTA00063097

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Ne] WwW WwW bit. Appreciate you. going to turn the r It is certainly and I'm turning off EFTA00063098

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