10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00062067

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ive) OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL oO 8 WITN te) t ive) fi fea] oo EFTA00062068

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LIMITED ho ho No No iN ies) w oO fos) wo co © iat) OFFICIAL USE 3 approximately 12:5 This interview with unit manager, , is being conducted ie) Fh w 3 fe) Fh ial pb QO pb wu bh U.S. Department of September 22nd, The time is 12:51 p.m. This interview is being conducted at the the record, and spell again, I am DOJ/ start, EFTA00062069

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LIMITED w wo ive) fea] oo its) No Ww OFFICIAL USE 4 TDY’d here, temporarily. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. investigation into the death The artment of Justice EFTA00062070

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 wm conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job ” performance failure and security failure. ee : And just so you’re aware, that’s what we’re writing on everybody that we interview. ae: Okay. That’s fine. : kay. ae: No problem. a : “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” The waiver states, "I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” Please read the form, review the form. If you EFTA00062071

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LIMITED ive) oO wo fea] oo wo t rar ho No OFFICIAL USE 6 - will name right below that. c nt | WM. «i '™ signing as a signature of Office of the Inspector don’t ha stop it at any you. 5 by un re) Thank you, sir. EFTA00062072

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this o b 9 hand down. Please let me current Oo oo PF is showing me his of 22 Prisons ID. It ha EFTA00062073

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 phone number? My current cell phone number oO Oo 23 24 nine mon 25 Guard EFTA00062074

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LIMITED o) ive) o co 95 OFFICIAL from training? EFTA00062075

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 10 As a unit manager over to the : That is correct. And you were TDY from M That is correct. When did you start at the around a month and a half ago because they’re remodeling MCC. i] sent me over he 3 U gave me lette fu temporarily, it further notice. unit manager, also? a : And which units, again, were tion in Au oO Ee: Unit. My unit was unit ll. North 11 South. And 9 North at the time. 1 being FBI regarding EFTA00062076

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a : What I have in front of me is a 302. It’s called a report, of investigation written by the FBI, and I'm not going to read through the whole thing, but we’re going to go through a few portions that we need clarification on. And we’ll go from there. The paragraph that I'm starting with, it starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry - is 8/16/2019. ee : Mm-hmm. | tti‘(‘i‘zwr Because the interview was on 8/12/2019. a : 8/12/2019. During the days” - I'm reading from the memo - “during the days prior to Epstein’s death, | ran into Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or Thursday. Epstein told | he needed to set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp. *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set it up because he was always meeting with his lawyers,and was never in the SHU. Epstein asked | to assist him because his normal unit manager was on leave.” Who was his normal EFTA00062077

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 unit manager? unit ma oO 9 that last name? oO from the oo to inmat 95 EFTA00062078

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has 2 to activate it. 3 a : Okay. What do they have to 4 do activate it 5 a: What they have to do is, 6 they would have to get on the phone, which, he 7 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a 8 phone call for every 30 So, in general 9 population, they would get on the phone, they i=) z c = oh record their voice. Once they record, by 11 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then it would actually activate, and then they can't Nm 3 money on the phone, and then have to put money 4 on a phone, then they could use the phone. 5 2u gave him the 16 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet That is correct. 9 a : -- he still had to active it. 20 HS: hat is correct. 21 a : And is it that he has to put 22 money on it, too? 23 ee: That is correct. 24 ae : Okay. 25 Ee : And was there any way for oo EFTA00062079

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 him to activate it, with his current situation at the time being in the SHU? ee: Not that particular day, he was requested a phone. It would have took him, to actually activate it in SHU, and add money to it, because when you activate it in Special Housing Unit, let’s say he activates it to today. He would have to fill out a green form. Usually, they would do it on the computer. They don’t have computers in SHU where they could do it. So, they would have to fill out a green form, which would have to be given to them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. That green form is then filled out by them. And then, it’s submitted to our ITS, which then will put it, put the money on the money on his account. I would say it would take, like, three or four days, to a week, for it to actually be activated. Be in his account. Ee : And was he provided a green form? a: No. Because at that particular time, I just gave him the pin and pack. That was it. EFTA00062080

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo © iat) OFFICIAL USE 15 couldn’t be used, though, is what y So, he had to activat and then request a green form? ae: That is correct. When them their originally pin and pack then. So, it should have been activated when he first came in the building. know why it wasn’t? a: I wasn’t his unit team. ee: But it should have been but the way d him with it, but what he couldn’t have actually k is n 0] ion ee : And at what point does he next day, give him that g I knew it was the next step. EFTA00062081

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) wo 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 16 f oO yr p. as to give him the green form, hey, I want to put this to him that I i) wu jen bh =] Q i= re} rt Oo i) ue} an ct i) Bb 5 A death, you ran into him and he asked for it. Did you it to him it to him the day -? ae: No. That day. ion. I'm sorry. Because it’s not done by c 2) mputers, I want to EFTA00062082

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 17 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can actually put money over the phone. ee : Okay. But there was no phone for him to actually do that with? a: No. Not, like, as far as a phone to give it to, and let him record it. No. Ee : But being assigned to the SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being in the attorney conference. I mean, would he have the ability to activate that? a: In the attorney conference, there was no, there is no phone in there. Hs: «=i the SHU, though, could he activated it? a: In the SHU, we would have to actually give him the phone, the phone would have to be during his validation time. So, that validation times starts in the time that you come in the prison. So, say if he came in on the 19th, his activation time would be the 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. So, being that he never used the phone, he would be in there with an activated, probably, the next day. EFTA00062083

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 18 Ee : But from within the SHU? ee : Within the SHU. If he was a phone. i) SHU, though. Is that what ay. rry. Go a quick question. That you mentioned it was on the 9th? the actual 9th, is didn't give it to him the day that he asked for a phone, I interview that you he later, on August 12th, 2019, during the days prior to Epstei days -- EFTA00062084

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 19 a : (Indiscernible *00:13:34). | tti‘aiézél; -- plural. ght, right, right. a : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) -- So, that -. It eith I'm not sure what not on the date that -- said, he came down, and EFTA00062085

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LIMITED oO ~~] wi Oo ee : No. He was downstairs. to was Val Un him, EFTA00062086

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 w ~] ive) | worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as the duty officer. Epstein told | he wanted to make a call to his mother, but had not yet been able to set up his pack and pin. a. he was ensuring his inmates have family socialization as part of his job, so he allows inmates having technical problems with their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone call. fF told Epstein his watch was ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way he would be able to help him make a call was if he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier than normal. F checked and confirmed that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and a: That is correct. WS: approximately 6:45 p.m., | found Epstein waiting for him, to make that call.” Where was he waiting? HS: attorney conference, with his lawyers. a : Okay. And did you go in there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey, listen, he’s waiting for you? a : No. They notified me in EFTA00062087

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 attorney conference that he was ready because they knew I was leaving at 7:00. ee : Okay. “Epstein was handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs. ft did not know which cell was Epstein’s, and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on G-tier, which | prefers for phone calls because inmates are not locked in their cells with the ability to pull the phone cord into their locked cell, and use it to commit self- harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the shower, where the guards are also physically present, with Epstein. | used the first outlet on the left, which is the legal line. Epstein provided | with the phone number beginning with (347).” Now, before I go on, it Says you used the first outlet on the left, legal line. Why the legal line? a : Because they have two lines in there. One is a legal line, and one is, where he uses his phone. So, he - let’s say if I plugged it in there, he can't use it because his pack and pin is not set up. Ona legal line, like we give right now, we give inmates in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to EFTA00062088

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 put in that code, in order for them to make that call. So, there’s a certain call where the inmates don’t have. So, I would have to dial that - at that time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello, boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him. Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't -. You can just dial out on that phone. So, a legal line is set up for us to give inmates legal calls in SHU. a : What is the difference between the legal line and the other line? ae : Other than the fact that you need the pin. Is there a difference between both of them? ee : Yes. The difference is an inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and that’s social call. ee a: For him to make any social calls to his family, which is, they’re recorded. That one is recorded. The legal line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal EFTA00062089

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be 2 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this 3 is a. I have your client here. Boom, 4 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here’s the phone, and 5 we give him the phone. And then, we don’t stay 6 within that vicinity to listen to their phone 7 calls. And that’s the same phone that they 8 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them 9 that call, we actually give it to them 10 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give 11 it to them, we give them the phone right in 2 front of us. ive) It states, about that, 4 “Epstein told fs he wanted to make a call w to his mother.” Mm-hmm. t fea] But that was not a legal 8 call, though. : No. It was a personal call. That is correct. How come the legal line? No rar : Because if he didn't have 24 something set up, how would he make a phone 25 call? And this inmate been with us for a EFTA00062090

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 while. And me, personally, if he was my inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why his wasn’t set up, I don't know. And I will give you a good example. R. Kelly’s up there, his is set up. Why his wasn’t set up, my job as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a phone call? He’s been asking for this phone call for a while. From his unit manager, from everybody, and I'm, like, why does this inmate don’t have his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm not his unit team. That’s not my responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty officer, and I know that I verified that he didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he’s just like any other inmate. It’s only right to make sure that he stays in contact with his family, because that’s part of the program statement of inmates visiting their families and keeping in contact with their family members. He didn't have a line to make it on. So, I chose to make that decision, and make it EFTA00062091

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 26 N w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 on a legal line. a : Did you have a conference with anyone above you, to get permission for that, or was it just a decision made by you? a: I made a decision because, as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I wouldn’t call the warden at home and say, hey, can I give him this legal call? Because that’s what the duty officer job is. The duty officer is there representing the warden while she’s not there. So, basically, I'm over the lieutenants, I'm over -. They would have to contact me. When incidents happen, they have to contact the duty officer. Then I contact the region, the duty officer. a : Oh, I see. ee : So, I don’t contact the warden. I contact the regional duty officer. WN: So, as the duty officer, you report to the region? a: That is correct. | tsti‘iés*@s Do you recall having a conversation, though, with the captain, and him providing you the authority to do it? EFTA00062092

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ee: No. Because with unit 2 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone 3 call is not the captain’s sibility. information that you actually spoke with him in w 6 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the Oo Oo oo H ve QQ fe) H 5 o ct ct J os | wu rt rt HH c oO K oO mw 1 - I don’t recall. I could have. But at the 2 same time, even if he would have said yes or ive) no, I would have gave him the call. Because I 7 our 8 and our program 9 statement, that we make sure they keep in 20 contact with their family members, or Father. Sister. Brother. We have No ox) 25 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact, EFTA00062093

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo © iat) OFFICIAL USE y How will we give them a them the phone call the same way. Inmates who don’t have mor indigent. So, if they need a phone call, we have to give them a phone call. We can't not give them a phone call, but we would call the numb call, let them a 15-minute phone call. Ee : Is that on the legal line, as well? ee : Becaus have no money, -- -- the money on it, but we don’t give them money , re indigent. And that will be on their -- EFTA00062094

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 N w ~] ive) ee: So, that will be on their -. We would look on their money form. And basically, any - what they - how they determine if you’re indigent, they go by how much money you received in the last six months. They go by six months. So, if an inmate only received, I think it’s, I want to say under $50 bucks, that inmate is indigent. It’s now in the unit team’s responsibility. Also, we not just give them phone calls. An indigent inmate could get up to five legal stamps, every month, and if he wants to do his lawyer, he can get up to five every week. a: Indigent inmates. though. Does that - from what you said - does that mean, like, it wasn’t even him, and his kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility, to tell you that you were authorized? a: I think me and FY had a rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there. An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, EFTA00062095

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oO Wo 1 if I did ask him, it was me giving hima I would have did that to any 2 courte ies) captain. If you was the captain. w 6 It’s just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give call. This, this, and that. fos) ie) is) c + eh a fu o 7) wy } aid to me, oh, I don’t think And ts) ct be w rt un fu Q fe) 12) ion pb Q oO ral} 10 okay. Probably would h went to somebody 1 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the , 2 same time, once again, there’s nobody there ive) after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would 4 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm 5 going to give him a phone call. remember, though, having that conversation -- oo No. 22 Ee : -- (Indiscernible No ox) # N i) far Le 24 ae: -- and I could have. I 25 could have had that conversation, because Like EFTA00062096

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LIMITED ies) w oO i=) ive) OFFICIAL a] o) fu B Qa . o rt rw] bh ny 2) =] i] KK 0] Q c f fu KR on wu a rm n So, I back to that date, though, at Just bringing yourself et D you me with him, No. I remember | being around because - and the reason why I know that MMMM doesn't have a lieutenant ae: I do remember that. So, if 9 working, you have to stay, or you have a GS b ) y iy cause you have to have a GS-11 and above. Mm-hmm. he was y- But you just don’t remember that conversation? ee : That is correct. y- Perfect. a : Now that the call was given oO a rs Wo ra EFTA00062097

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on the legal line, was there any steps to make sure, because it’s supposed to be recorded, you know, an inmate call, a social call, is supposed to be recorded. HE: Right. ae : He said he’s calling his mother. Was there any steps that you should have taken to ensure that that call was monitored somehow? ee : The only way we monitor it is, I made the phone call, hello, how you doing? I don’t say, hey, is this his mother, because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 minutes. When he’s done with the phone call, disconnect, and that’s it. So, we don’t know. Let’s say, right now, I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or whatever. Do we know there’s a three-way, or anything? We don’t know. So, we sit down. We time it. 15 minutes. And we’re done. There’s EFTA00062098

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 no way to record that phone. There’s no way to pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, at that particular time. That was in place since I’ve been at MCC. Has anything changed? The only thing changed since I’ve been there is they took out all of the legal lines, and they put them in one particular area. They took them all out of SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, and they changed the code for that particular reason. HS: 80d that wasn’t after Epstein. It took a while. ee : So, they do it in response because people were doing that, was what you mean? a : The reason -. I'm one of the ones who actually brought it to the captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because ona regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even after | (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was EFTA00062099

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there, she - and anybody would say, okay, inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone restriction. But remember, the warden is the only one who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can you give him a phone call? He’s on a phone restriction. There’s only two ways you could give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you can't give it to him on a social, you give it to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs the cop out. She approves it. Well, any warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not trying to put. I'm just saying, that’s how it’s done. That’s how I’ve seen it done. Once we get it approved, we give the inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - give him two minutes - hey, you have two minutes left and that’s it. Take the phone from the inmate. We don’t know that person is supposed to -- EFTA00062100

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) Wo wi ee: -- because (Indiscernible *00:25:32). ee : -- you’re supposed to sit there with them, though. Correct? a: No. There’s nothing saying that. That’s just, like, sit there and do Ee : Oh, so, everything that we've been told is that, if you give the person a call, on a legal line, if it’s not the oi) attorney, you’re supposed to sit there and monitor the call, because it’s not being recorded. Ee: Well, they -. And since I’ve been there, and that’s the reason why I asked them to take it out. Because how you putting somebody on a range, and saying that, hey, this person -. If that’s the case, then let’s do it the right way. The right way -- ae: -- is to belly chain the inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right way. Take him out - because that’s what we do down there - you take him out. You pull the inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded EFTA00062101

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 area. You make the phone call. On speaker. Because that’s how we do it downstairs. And then, you give it to him on speaker. you let him -. If he wants his 15-minute phone call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk to on speaker. That’s how Epstein received his first phone call. It’s a three-minute phone call on speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could say, this is the way to proper way. The proper call, for an inmate, is secluded, because these So, you don’t know what be crying for his death. do it. That’s not the way to make a phone to have that inmate guys can hear, too. he’s saying. He could And you got other inmates right there. In the next cell who could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this to me. That. So, the proper way out, put him in a belly has to be cuffed in the phone, with a counselor him on speaker. That’s es : paragraph. is to bring the inmate chain, because then he front. Put him on the or unit team, and put the proper way. I'm going to finish the And then, EFTA00062102

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LIMITED oO ~] wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE though. Is it pin and p It’s and pack, pack and pin. ee : Yeah. Because one, your pin is a different number, and your pack is a number, and then it’s going to s p 5 4 a w ot nN b } My wu EFTA00062103

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) oo its) OFFICIAL USE 38 a : I'm going to read the rest of it. “Epstein provided | with the phone number beginning with (347). Fs dialed the number, and a male picked up the phone. | handed the phone to Epstein, and him say, hey, how you doing? How is >rything? Fs then left because his watch was that he was able to make us through. And you put the legal line in -- a: They brought him out. a : -- you dialed -. Ee: I just walked up with the internal. Internal. All inmat walked by an internal. So, escort him up. We brought him up. He was already in chains already. So, I mean, in the cuffs. Bring him up. Go to the shower. EFTA00062104

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE Ww wo him out the cuffs. Put him and secure him. 7] Take the cuffs off. Once again, the legal line can't fit to where the inmate could get has a handle. So, we dial Give it to him. And once sure he get his 15-minutes, and after that, okay, no problem. And that was it. So, you told Noel and | - a : That is correct. fF Did you give them instructions on listening to the phone call at all? FY Where was - this is G-tier - where was G-tier compared to the officer SHU -- | If o i oh i) its) pa , you re looking at EFTA00062105

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 oO wo ive) fea] oo wo 22 the only shower that is outside. All the other 23 you have to -. So, 24 G-tier is 25 ce, you could EFTA00062106

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo wo No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE Like, if you sit down, you can actually see that G-tier shower. That’s the only shower. All the other showers are inside. You have a cage. Shower. So, you have a cage where the inmates inside the shower. This one, you can actually see the shower because it’s on the the only one because - excuse me — that G-tier is made specifically for the high-profile inmates. Okay. ae: That’s why it’s made like Now, based on, when you gave the phone call to him, where was || and Noel? Where they at the G -? At the shower area, or where they sitting -- a : They were sitting at the Q oO it) ba a : The desk. And what about 41 EFTA00062107

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 probably went back to doing his internal 2 duties. Internal, any time they need an 3 inmate, that’s his job to escort them back and wi And you left for the day, 7 ee : That is correct. At 7: Did you make any phone calls fos) wo check in on them, and to verify that i=) was finishing his phone ca 2 ee : So, you just -. So, Noel said that you spoke to her and said, hey, make ive) 4 - hey, get that phone, his phone back after his 5 phone call is done. 16 a: I remember speaking to her. I don’t know if I was, like, in 8 the car, in - But I did ask her. I said, 9 hey, did you take the phone from the inmate? 20 And 21 ee : And that was that night, That is correct. No ox) 24 Okay She said that -- 25 it could have been -- EFTA00062108

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 43 is] ould have been in the institution, I could been outside of my car. Or I could have been going on the train. But I ntact her and say, sure you take him off the phone? Yes. hey, make sure you get that phone back from him, because his time is up, and then, she said, ok And that’s when she went and took tt it back. Does hat sound right? to ask more about that comment? Why -? Is that why you had contac that ee : That is correct. Because I don’t want him going over that 15 minute mean, 16, 17 minutes, but to stay on the phone, no. I would -- uld definitely want to verify that. EFTA00062109

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 2 ee : (Indiscernible *00:31:45). had with her -- -- with Noel? It Not that I re o ain thing wo ive) 14 what I caught that day. But t o 17 remember at all, around what time that would b oo p 0 on oO D 19 a : It could have 20 left at 7:00, it had to be no later than 7:00, ng back, I'm going to 25 read a part here. yo dialed the number, EFTA00062110

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and a male picked up the phone.” Being that, when Epstein asked to make a phone call, he said he was going to - he wanted to call his mother. : Mm-hmm. Did you verify who the person was? Did you ask about his mother? Did you ask to speak to a specific person? Identify the person before you -- ee : I did not. ee : -- how come? a: I just didn't. And there was no reason why I didn't. I just didn't. WN: Because he was just - we have to get clarification - because he asked for his mother, but it was a male that picked up, and it was, you know, contradictory to what he requested, to who the phone was being handed off to. That didn't. How come - I know you didn't ask - but is there a reason? Normally, do you verify if an inmate is talking to the person that they have requested to speak to? : I mean, do I verify? There’s not a lot of inmates that we do give phone calls. So, let’s say, if a dude said, EFTA00062111

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick up. Okay. How you doing? Because he’s giving me that number, and I'm verifying that that number is on his - but which he don’t, you can't verify his numbers, because he don’t have an account. So, give him the phone, and that’s it. I don’t -. Me verifying it, was it, you know, was it something I should have done? Yes. Was it something I did? No. a: Okay. And are inmates allowed to call just anyone, or is there a specific list of people that they are allowed to call? HE: «(Originally how it works is, if an inmate is asking for, of course, his mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he wants to speak to, usually, it’s not ever a friend. It’s usually immediate family members. Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts, whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone list. But once again, how can an inmate have a phone list when he has no account set up? ee : So, the pack and pin, if he set that up, would have had a phone list -- EFTA00062112

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 5 that 6 after 8 all on that topic. ce) No. 1 want t Mm-hmm. ot) When 14 gave him the 15 inform Noel and a. oO oo 24 with me. EFTA00062113

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 95 OFFICIAL USE make s And th call. would = ure it’s 15 minutes and that’s it. 10 at’s the reason why I made that phone But I made it to have I thought EFTA00062114

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 he wouldn’t ive) w wo ive) fea] t © B ct OI n ifs] its) That is correct. EFTA00062115

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 just, and what caused you - if you told them 2 that there - what caused you to follow up with 3 them in the car? 4 ae: And that was just me, where 5 let’s have officers - it was only two. 6 And I don’t know how many inmates we had at the 7 time, but we had several. This is not 8 midnight. So, me personally, they should have 9 more officers in there. So, they could have 10 got busy 2 a: It could have been a use of 3 force. IT could have been anything. So, what 4 if those inmates still got the phone? at 5 least they could have went down there, pulled 16 the - all they have to do is pull the jack out. 7 There was nothing else they can do. 9 a : So, I just wanted to make 21 : oon. cause I didn't want him to No N w i) NK Now, would it -- Over 15 minutes. ine) w EFTA00062116

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 51 Ee : -- would it typically be Saying, it - and I understand what you sounds like MCC kind of wasn’t doing things should have you, as the actually sat there and monitored it? nd that’s what I proper way to make a | cht. ee: -- if he wanted that phone ildn’t be call, is the inmate in the shower. a : The inmate come out. The inmate go to, let’s say, an area, and you put So, that’s the proper That is the proper way. y -- wasn’t it -. And cover this. Ee : Why wasn’t it that proper EFTA00062117

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 taff. Due to wo And why didn’t he - Ww ct J oO i) ian ie) a] rt =] i) it) it) 2) Fh it) ct wu Fh rh 4 and I always ask the question - why didn't he - w what was so special? - why didn't he have a 6 pack and pin set up? Every inmate in the BOP fos) oO my question, my question i=) to myself is, why is he the only or 2 a: And he’s not endog Ee : Now, going back to 5 with you in the elevator, and that you said, ive) fo) he oO mw io aq Oo wu om oO w io him his phone call. But make sure it’s monitored and logged. Do you oo remember that -? 9 a : In the book. Yes. 20 ee : So, when he said, make 21 sure it’s monitored and logged, wouldn’t that 22 have been, like, make st with him 3) 7) ure you No ox) while it’s going on? 24 ae: No. Monitor and log is just EFTA00062118

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 logged in a phone logbook. And at the time, they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there, they didn't have. We made, like, I recently made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that myself because I know what was - what we was doing in other prisons. They didn't have one here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And it wasn’t after Epstein. I just said, if we’re giving inmates legal calls, we need to have that documented, and so an inmate - let’s say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I never got this call. Same thing with social calls. Social calls have to be logged in the book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print the data off and say, okay, you made a 15 minute phone, but we should be logging it in because it should be also the person who’s giving that inmate that phone call. ee : So, was that phone call logged, then? ee : Okay. So, it wasn’t logged, and it wasn’t monitored. Okay. As far EFTA00062119

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 54 as who he spoke with, do you know who he spoke with? a : I do not. Do you want to talk about the memo? Going back, you said ct J 7 rt a o kK © Q fs 0] o) ct @ jon 3 c f rt bh 5 @ rt bh 3 m 7] | | set up. Not to you know who he he told me numerous times that he ac he had at the uni time was Unit Manager aa. | was And who team. The only i the counselor. That was else was it? I don’t think || had -. I think she had a. There was one more person. I'm trying to think who else she had under her. a. Oh. And I'm want -. I want to say | (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:46). I don't know if he was under her. I know she had EFTA00062120

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 responsibility to set that up. And let’s say - I’1l give you a good example - let’s use R. Kelly. All right? He’s in my unit now. Okay? So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and pin. That’s something they’re going to do. Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line. He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He set it up the same way. So, saying that is how long do we have Epstein, and it wasn’t set up? So, it should have been set up from the beginning. So, we wouldn’t have this problem where, okay, an inmate is entitled to call his family member or whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So, that’s besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm not going to sit there and sugar coat it and say, hey, I should have sat right there, but even sitting right there, what can I heard him say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever. And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have pulled him out and put him in this area, and put it on speaker. EFTA00062121

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 But once again, we’re talking about 80 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you know, it should be four officers, instead of that. But it’s two officers. So, there was a lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going around. I'm not putting that on nobody. This is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not speaking about anybody else. So, once I realized a lot of stuff was going on, and that’s not just because of his death, it’s things that I know that should be happening. I put those things in place at MCC because it wasn’t happening. I did those. I'm the one who put a green book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do it. I just knew it was the right thing to do. I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the com shop, and told him, take the legal line out. And it wasn’t just because of Epstein. It was because a lot of inmates were manipulating staff to give them the legal line, to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or another inmate? And it wasn’t monitored. So, EFTA00062122

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) No Ww OFFICIAL USE 57 saw that, and I'm the one who did that. ng able to run an organization from within institution. a : That is correct. ly, this becomes a little bit more unfortunat i] of a serious matter. Ee: And I get it. those who fell into the thing, what } was doing, but I still know b cau - it sounds like - after EFTA00062123

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo i=) ive) ~] oo No ox) OFFICIAL October, 10t is USE w co know how you What’s that? What he, in or -- ae: -- August? Ee : Yeah. August. August when. I'm going to say the beginning - me - the beginning of 2020. oO 5 u b- b 7) People running around. I it’s crazy But you go to these people communication. Be Hey, we need to take I'm good with that. say - and you know right from wro - know, I know e\ is - get with the ciate warde ociate warden. And I'm putting this in I'm not just, you know, hey, rid of this stuff. EFTA00062124

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) uw to ee: Because it’s bad for staff down there. Okay. Get with this person. Get with that person. Vice versa. It’s just a lot of back and forth. So, it took, you know, you’re trying to get this stuff done, and they’re acting like it’s the hardest thing to do. Communication staff is telling me, it could happen like that. I could just snap a wire, that legal line is gone. Come to find out, when it was finally approved, that’s all it took. Just like that. a : And then, as far as, you said, that it seems like it was kind of common practice at the time, that, like, people were just putting inmates on legal lines. Was that happening a lot, then, around that time? ee: All the time. a : All the time. a : All the time. Hs: «= So, was that -. Now, who was -. Were you also one of the ones that was constantly providing -? ee: No. The only call I gave an inmate was Epstein, during that time. If I ever gave an inmate - once again - a call, EFTA00062125

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 let’s say to his mother, I would have to go Like, if you on phone striction, I would not. I would just be, know, 5 warden. She’s the warden Th 6 cop out. 8 9 this inmate the 1 did. And when you’re talking 12 about a female. Who is it that you are ive) fea] oo wo 23 24 after 9 EFTA00062126

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) ee: That is correct. ee: Because inmates would ask her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again, inmates can ask for anything you want. If that’s just, like, if your has been taken for a year. They have the right to ask for a special visit. ee : Mm-hmm. a: The special visit is approved by who? The warden. Typically, the warden just usually don’t. They have to be really an emergency, somebody is dy something. But if you’ve been sanctioned, and if you read the policy, the only person who really can do that is the regional DHO, but under, of course, the warden, because that’s her jail, or that’s his jail, or whoever the if] warden is. They can do it. But they would have to - you would have to put it in the memo form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day. So, special visits never happen, but -- Sure. ee : -- the phone calls did. So, in the phone calls, EFTA00062127

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 though, it sounds like they were ha 2 only prior to Epstein, but also fol 3 Epstein’s discovery on August 9th. 6 And that’s in the SHU, as well? 7 a: That’s the only 8 the outside, we never did it on tha 9 have to do it on the outside. This 10 inmates in SHU. These are all inma 2 specifically to the SHU, and the G- 3 ee: No. Remember. 4 legal line. I put him in the G-tie 15 the whole phone couldn’t reach. 7 HN: «So, I did that a 8 breach of this inmate can't do noth 9 himself, or whoever. I knew who he 20 as far as on the tiers, they had le 21 every tier. Between every cell. S&S 22 went to -. I can go downstairs, pl 23 phone in, and give it to an inmate. 24 es : And that’s wh 25 doing? 62 ppening, not lowing taff members were -. way -. On t. We don't was mainly tes in SHU. e speaking tier shower? They had the r because S a security ing to was. But gal lines on o, if I had ug this at they were EFTA00062128

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ME: >. ee : So, they were just plugging it in -- ae: Everybody was doing it. ee: -- okay. So, you chose to put him in the G-tier shower. Other staff members are just giving it to him on any legal line? And that’s for other inmates. ae: It was constant. And it was nothing -. I mean, so, I requested that because it was putting staff in a bind. My thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying, like, these are young staff. You know, some staff got, you know, once you get your year, you can go to SHU. They don’t know no better. Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it in the social line. Right? And let’s say you got a staff that’s down there, and the inmate go, hold that, my phone’s not working. It says social and legal. So, you know the difference. And then, he takes it out of social and plug it. So, it might not be typically that staff member. It could be another staff member taking it out and putting it there. So, that’s why I said, okay, EFTA00062129

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 let’s get rid of it. What they did was, they 2 did a quick fix. They put tape around it. 3 Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What’s 4 putting tape around it? Anybody could take off 5 the tape. 6 © ct. 7 a: And it was happening. So, 8 tape is coming off. Then they tried to put 9 puddy in it. That didn't work. So, 10 eventually, they did exactly what I asked them 11 to do. There was only one line you could plug 2 in. And that was your phone call. That’s it. 3 All legal lines was put in the back of the 4 visit room, where you have to have a staff 15 member present at that time. 16 Ee : In the SHU visiting room? 7 ee: Yes. And that -- 9 a : -- the only person that will 20 be is that will be unit team. 21 ee : Okay. And how did you 22 know that the staff members were providing 23 inmates with these calls? 24 ee : Let’s say I'm doing my 25 rounds. I'm doing my unit manager rounds. All EFTA00062130

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right? I'm doing my unit manager rounds. I'm doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the difference between the cord, and you go, what’s this guy on right here? Oh, he’s on a social call. No, he’s not on a social call. He’s on the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, I would go over there, and of course, I catch problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I don’t have no minutes. You don’t have no minutes. You shouldn’t -. You’re on phone restriction. It’s a lot. Now, it becomes a problem where, guess what? The inmate acts out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many phones we’ve replaced in there? Listen. It was a lot. foe ee: Like I said, me personally, I would never make an excuse for myself. You know? Regardless of the fact, the years that I have in, I should have did it the right way. There is no way for me, myself, to fall into McC’s trap, which I did. And it caused me to be right here today. So, I would never make an excuse for that. : oy. EFTA00062131

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE o oy a : I just want to clarify. Based on the question I asked, based on your conversation with Epstein, he said that he ed pack and pin from | and || multiple times, but it was up ae: That is correct. Ee : Yeah - note, I don’t think I know it was -. She did ue] o ie) "oO a oO c =] jen i] K za 0 8 Ee : Okay. And just to touch on, this is kind of off the topic, but d unit manager rounds. What is that? Is that like a lieutenant round? EFTA00062132

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a: No. So, what we do is, unit team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that we sign in. ME sn a : You go in. You sign in. Put the time you in. And then, whenever you come out. So, we would go there, and we would run a roster with all of our inmates. 11 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom. Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need? They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I want a phone call. Okay. You on phone restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next validation date? And a lot of those guys were legit. Oh, by validation. So, they can really make a phone call. So, I don't know why they wasn’t getting phone calls. But then, I found out a lot, they didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere I’ve been, it’s a SHU schedule. Monday, this range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay, EFTA00062133

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mondays, we don’t use the phone. It’s just us going to use the phone. And that should have been set up that way. Once again, I set that up. I did. I didn't have to. But I did it because I thought it was just right for the inmates, and for the staff. This way, they’re not, okay, they’re giving this inmate a phone call today. Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next day. And this becomes where the inmates are actually running the phones the way they want to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should be giving this range on Monday, and that should be every Monday. If this dude is validated, and he can get a phone call, he should get a phone call. Leave it on that range, put it in the social line, he can only make - at that time - you can only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would cut off no matter what. So, you can go down there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you knew that the phone call was over. You knew it was over. It was done. Take it, give it to the next person. CEES: on. EFTA00062134

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ee: So, it was a lot that MCC had backwards. They just came up with the phones where you wheel the real phones, the way it’s supposed to be. The actual phone that they have on the phone, but they have it ona stand. You wheel it over there. You open the slot. You leave the slot open. The inmate down, and the only thing he can have is that. We had the old phones where you’re giving an inmate the whole phone, put the wire in the thing, and locks the slot. Now, the inmate has a phone. Ee : So, with the unit team round, do you go around to each one of the inmates -- a: Each cell. And I look for my inmates. And let’s say -- a : -- oh, so, you only have certain inmates that you’re going to? WS: -- ight. Let’s say I had 12 - no, but I'm doing rounds in an entire tier, because what if another inmate from | says, hey, I need a BP-8. I'm still writing that down. And I will email | | later and say - because we do the same thing here - we EFTA00062135

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 email every unit team, hey, this inmate had an 2 issue, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would 3 address it whenever they do their SHU rounds. 4 So, our job is to go to every cell. Not just 5 our inmates. But I ran a roster so I can know 6 who my inmates is, but our job as a unit team 7 go to every cell. 9 a: Not just our inmates. 10 Ee : -- two questions on that. 11 Is a lieutenant round supposed to be done the 2 same way, where they’re going to every cell? 3 ee: A lieutenant round on each 4 shift is the same way, where they’re supposed 15 to go to every cell. Look in the window. And 16 we -. And now, this, when we was doing, take 7 your streams now, do this, if an inmate is not 8 moving -- 20 HS: )s -- Sit the light. Make sure 21 inmates living and breathing. Yes. That’s a 22 lieutenants’ round. 23 | tsti‘iés*@s So, a lieutenant round 24 does actually consist of going to every cell -- 25 a : Every cell. EFTA00062136

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) Ee : -- not just checking in with the -- ee : -- staff members to see if they’re doing it. ae: That’s the last thing. That’s the last thing they do. Our job, even when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing unit. In the housing unit, you don’t have to go every cell in the housing unit because it’s not the SHU. They’re out. But you should go to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and you check, and you’re making sure. How you know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check and you looking at, you looking into the cell. How you know an inmate don’t have his window covered? Why you got your window covered? Open the door. So, yes. But in SHU, it’s every cell. Hs: «Okay. So, the lieutenant does a round. Has to check every cell. a: The same thing as unit team. | tsti‘iés*@s All right. And then s every shift needed to do that, too. EFTA00062137

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LIMITED oO wo oO oo OFFIC unit team has it wasn’t just me. was me. a. And | | (Phonetic i?) hanged that says a unit team. Which means, now, I rounds for a. And I the information he EFTA00062138

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, I can do rounds for them. That’s in the new unit manager’s manual. ee : Now, aside from phone calls, what is a unit team member, or manager, checking in with the inmates on? What is the, like, what is the goal of checking in with the inmates? HN: ec’ re doing is reports. So, disciplinary action. So, we go there. An inmate has -. That’s why he’s in SHU. Disciplinary action. So, we do incident reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot of inmates from visiting can't set up their visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So, they would have to fill out a form, who they want. And then, we take that form and send it to trust fund, who they would then add those names to the visiting list. But they would have to already be in the inmates’ central file, if it’s on those. So, we do visiting, incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And listen to their problems. So, that’s why we had to go to SHU every day. EFTA00062139

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anything to do with, like, cellmates? HE: «No. §=The only time we would get involved with cellmate is when it was just, like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So, if the psychologist says, this person needs a cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would be, like, this is a good fit for him. If this guy is a sex offender, and he’s not a sex offender predator, he’s just a sex offender. And he shouldn’t be with nobody who is a predator. He can be with another sex offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like, you know what? I know him. He used to be in my unit. So, I would give them, like, the psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell with this inmate. So, yes, we would have input, as far as that, because we know the inmates. The unit team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like, the captain, for him to know an inmate, even though he’s doing his rounds, he don’t know the EFTA00062140

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 inmate more than unit team. have input to psychology, and we did have input WwW is) rh go in with Epstein. We didh Oh, you did? Did you, wi oO 7 ee : No. That was || then. Yeah. fos) te) i=) the one who at that time, F N wu K ie} c Ww Qo o be sn’t in court. i 5 ct oO 4K 0) fo ct H 5 7 Pp. 5 Q o @ 0 wu oc n @ a i) fu 20 Ee: Right. But originally, his 21 cellmate would do the same thing, go to court, 22 whatever. But remember, I don’t do the SENTRY Nw la ct H w a i] ct bh oO =] to EFTA00062141

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 court. Right? So -- Because in the court list, it said WAB, and it ies) 4 was transferred to GO. Belongings. w oo J a 3 a 10 a: Right. But they -. Here, call - and once again, this is my first 12 high rise, first pre-trial -- t ive) Yeah, 14 Ee: -- when they say an inmate to a high- 17 court, k Les] 3 o r 1 o rt a ov] ct a) =| « honest truth. Like, I don’t know what that means. t ° fan j fe) = S i ct Ss | H ie) 3 + his cellee i it) 20 So, people would 21 court. I mean, No NN No Ww No EFTA00062142

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) ~ a Ee : That’s - it could be still out at court, though, at 7:00. ee: Okay. Then here’s the thing. Okay. Let’s say your inmate is out in court. Okay? And typically, the right way. And I will say this about MCC. How they was doing this. Now, we didn't have that -. We have the holding cells now. We didn't have them before. They just put them there. I guess after this incident. But you would then - me personally - I would then put that inmate, and that inmate was in a good area, with officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that cell. But I would - me personally - I would probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute round, and that’s just me, until his cellmate get there. ee : So, who was it that actually put Epstein in his cell? ae: I wasn’t there. Ee : Oh, so, when you came back from 7:00, at 7:00 p.m. with him -- Ee : -- you weren’t there when EFTA00062143

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LIMITED ho ho No No iN ies) w fos) wo co © iat) OFFICIAL USE 78 he was actually placed in the cell? ee : No. I wasn’t there. -ellmate wasn’t in there, did y yu knew he was at said everybody knew. he didn't have a by rt J Qa oO @ limate. I knew his cellmate was not there. I knew that. a c wu 5 en you knew he wasn’t coming back at that point? ME: Ee: I didn't know. I honestly didn't know. rt know. ust know that he wasn’t there. And my thing is, And I know dudes knew he still should have had It don’ ct 3 AY rt ct o BK = i) ct wo n a cellmate. Once again, if your EFTA00062144

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ~—) to cellmate is in court, it’s just up here, just like I'm not taking excuses for what I did. You know he’s suspect. Everybody knows that. Okay. So, if you’re going to put him there, there’s a couple of ways you can do it. I will put him there and say, okay, guess what? We’re doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the best thing going, going right now. That I’ve seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him in there. CE: ight. ee: Leave him in R&D. ee : So, was it a conversation at all when you came back with, okay, where is his cellmate? ee: I didn't. I don’t typically ask for a cellmate. I basically -. The only thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with a cellmate. Ee : No, no, no. I mean, on that 7:00 p.m., on August 9th, 2019 -- ee : Mm-hmm. Ee : -- when you came back. EFTA00062145

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LIMITED oO oO oo 95 , was the -- on’t - me. It’s But I know for a fact limate, but like knew he EFTA00062146

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LIMITED ho ho No No iN ies) w fos) wo co © iat) OFFICIAL USE 8 coming b talking about? The one that’s created b or the list that R&D i rt ct provid i) 7 o the housing units so that they can produce their inmates. the computer. It’s not -. EFTA00062147

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LIMITED T fee] 1 It’s something that they oO provide it to the housing units. 7 ee : For court. Yes. That is correct. WAB and court. 14 So, if in this instance, 15 but it w — t o Mm-hmm. oo | w iad oO 23 is 24 what was EFTA00062148

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 8 reason why - is because I didn't see the list. , we’re hearing, you just mentioned just now, that he was WAB. We're hearing, oh, his cellee is in court. main thing was him coming back, his cellmate coming back. ee : And that was spoken ee : That he was in court? n wu kK I come in at 11:00 to 7:00, right, I'm the offic a : Mm-hmm. a : And let’s down there talking to his attorney, and I knew a c ct oO r. y I know he’s had actual - and this, I won't do - move with somebo you that. EFTA00062149

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That’s just -. I do it right now. I do it now. When I have an inmate right now, in our suicide watch. MMMM (Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee. If he don’t find a cellee, and then I'm interviewing that cellee, I need to find out what kind of cellmate he’s putting in there with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy -. But I’ve done it. And that’s something I will never go against, where if I know an inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to make sure he has a cellmate. ee : So, on this note, whereas Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was, early in the morning, you know, leaves the institution, listed on the court production list as WAB. In your unit manager experience, who was responsible for saying, he’s WAB, he’s not going to court, he’s WAB, he’s transferring from here, and there is emails from the U.S. Marshal Service that clearly show, the day before, that he is transferring to GO. EFTA00062150

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ee: Mm-hmm. | tti‘aiézél; Whose ultimately responsibility was that, at that point? ae: R&D, and this is, R&D is responsible for saying, okay, he’s WAB, he’s transferring. Once again, I never knew what WAB is. I don’t. This is my - like I said - this is my first high rise. ee : So, he goes out or whatever. It’s R&D’s responsibility to say, hey, this guy is WAB. He’s not coming back. He getting transferred or whatever. Also, too, if that was my inmate. So, I'm not sure even received something saying that he don’t have a cellmate. So, at that time, if | did receive something, because they would have sent it to me if he was my inmate. || been there forever. She knows. She knows. She’s been the unit manager. She’s been the case manager there. So, she would know, okay, you don’t got no cellmate. She could have got with a psychologist and said, hey, you know, Epstein’s cellmate left at 9:00 in the morning, or 8:00 in the morning. EFTA00062151

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE oo an ee : He needs a cellmate. HS: St would have been two He needs a cellee. Then once we tell psychology, it is sponsibility to go to the hey, this guy needs a it wasn’t, like, the SHU staff members, or the operations lieutenant, it was actually the unit mana who was responsible for that individual? H ct Q (e) om n Hh kK e) 3 8) fn o who they - s guy. Who \ t mine. I know who Re but he wasn’t mine. EFTA00062152

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL you know? ~ And where is || n OW, s working from right here. It’s this the one to the Third Well, what’s but she from works What is her pos think st think she’s -. I want to from And ~. She what are EFTA00062153

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ee: -- yeah. We were both 12s. and she saw an opportunity had opened because she just lost her father. Her mother is sick. So, she basically -. So, she works -. She works out of home. I think she has to report there once a week, or once a month. But yeah, she works out of home. ME: ae: But she still works for the BOP. ee : So, your unit team experience tells you that the actual way it should have worked, and the ideal circumstance, was R&D should have told her, she should have told the captain. a: That is correct. Or, and it could have been, let’s say, everybody gets this list. I know I will get it. So, a. captain. So, let’s say the captain, or the lieutenant’s office get it. The lieutenant’s office, they get it because they know all the transfers. They know who is leaving. They could have known, hey, this guy is leaving. They could have notified psychology. Anyone of us has supervisors, who had that list, should EFTA00062154

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have notified psychology in the morning. It could have been -. ee : Is there one group that should have, though, versus could have? Because if R&D is giving that list to everybody, is there one, is there one group, either unit team, or ops lieutenant -- ee: The person I'm going to put, that if they had a SHU lieutenant, it’s going to be the SHU lieutenant. ME: ich. a: Because the SHU lieutenant, like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this list, you know, this guy leaving. He don’t got no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I already know, Epstein is in court, while he’s downstairs, right? He probably be down there until about, let’s say 7:00, 8:00. Before he come up here, he have a cellmate. That’s automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn’t there, it’s the operations lieutenant. Who would then notify the captain and psychology, EFTA00062155

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which then, if they would have did it early enough, when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have went back in that cell, and he would have had a cellmate. ee : Absolutely. So, the actual way it should have worked is, the SHU lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the captain. ae: That is correct. It’s never our responsibility. Because that inmate, he belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain. SHU is the captain. That’s the captain’s baby. If you got a SHU lieutenant, it’s the SHU lieutenants. That’s mines. So, I know all my inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the cellmate left. Okay. Let’s get the cellmate for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, Reyes left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay. Let’s make sure we don’t pick somebody like Tartaglione, or somebody else who’s going to, you know what I mean? Get accused of doing something. Okay. We’1ll pick a cellimate. ee: So, two things off that. EFTA00062156

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a: We don’t. But let’s say, if - and the reason why I say we don’t, but we still do - let’s say, if I knew it was my inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and then, I'm going to give you an example. All these guys that’s come in over here, right? I get the list in the morning. They come here every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they’re going into quarantine unit. So, the process here, I had to find out the process when I got here. I get the list. | (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is over there, she does all the bed assignments. So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed assignments, because technically, they are my inmates, I do their assignments. So, long story short, she says to us, she does it because she only have 20 inmates. She’s been doing since she’s been here. Okay. So, that’s something less I have to do. But I still have to make sure those inmates, because they come into my unit, all the cells are working. All the lights are working in the cell. Everything. So, that’s my responsibility. That is my 92 EFTA00062158

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) fe] tot) responsibility. That is my unit. It’s still can fall on the unit team, but is it our responsibility? I would say no, because SHU belongs to the SHU lieutenant. Really, the captain, who belongs to the SHU lieutenant, then operations. ee: That’s how it really goes. ee : -- do you think, though, that | | has any responsibility for notifying that Reyes left, and knowing that Reyes was ee: I wouldn’t put it on - and I'm not just saying this because even if it was me — that’s not my responsibility. Like, it’s not onto me, because that inmate is in SHU. If he’s in my unit, s. Like, we do have inmates y in their units who can't be by themselves, too. HS: that’s my responsibility. He’s in SHU. That’s the captain’s responsibility. | tsti‘iés*@s Okay. And then, the second follow up to that, was you mentioned Tartaglione, and the things that, you know g ' g r Y ' EFTA00062159

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were being talked about. What is your understanding of what happened with Epstein and Tartaglione? ae: The only thing I remember is - and this is when I first met Tartaglione. I didn't know anything about him. I didn't know his background. Anything. It was just alleged, and this is something that I heard, that he choked Epstein out. That’s the only thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit, like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever. He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was trying to get to me, caught up, I don’t get into that. I was, like, whatever. He was just, like, no, I never did that. And you think I would do something like that? And I'm working on my case? All right. No problem. Never, ever talked about them again. a: That was it. Ee : -- did you ever kind of reconcile that, that you heard, maybe, Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus, EFTA00062160

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) its) iat) OFFICIAL USE ie wi Epstein tried to commit ae: The only thing I heard, and like I said, was the Tartaglione thing was an investigation. And I knew -. Because my question was, well, why did this guy move out the cell? That’s when I heard it Oh, yeah. He moved out the were saying Tartaglione ilted him. And then, I knew becat they had FBI agents called in, and interviewed Tartaglione. So, I knew that. Right. commit suicide? -- placed on suicide EFTA00062161

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LIMITED o k im 0 =] iy 5 ion 1 H mw] oO ) i ct tr a my ct inc that was also a || Oo ~] No Ww nothing EFTA00062162

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 You mentioned that - going Ww oC w 0 ct + og p u 's] oy 3 D 0 u ran = \ mentioned the 4 captain said to monitor and log the calls. But oO Mm-hmm. ct Oo = @ wy) re} rt @ wo : Mm-hmm. 7 a : There was no book c Ww ct J BP a — J iy 3 hy w 3 t oa ee + a) wv rt 14 it in the 15 16 18 19 After the Epstein incident? EFTA00062163

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wo co that point, did the as no books? ies) w 7 saying monitor and log it? 8 a : I kind of remember it. i] - remember, it 0 what I know was, I 1 mean, I didn't know there was no book at the 2 time until I went up to SHU and didn't see no ive) book. Because it would have been logged. 4 ae : And you had to practice that, 5 if you g a legal call, you would actually fea] log it on? 7 ee : And that’s the reason why I 8 actually made the -. I the book 9 up. And then, today, there is a book in there 20 for legal calls and social 22 a: If you go up there now. 23 | tsti‘iés*@s That’s not shutting off. 24 Sorry about that. 95 . Zo H K oO wu J EFTA00062164

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 99 I'm going to - here. ty rt Kb 1) fu mn rt rt 7 ; o) bh if) the copy politan Correctional this. The EFTA00062165

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054. “This memorandum is in regards of inmate Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein, concerning him making a call to his family. I told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to shorten his attorney visitation to make his social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and escorted the phone for him to make the social call. I placed the phone in the first jack on the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained to me that he didn't have his phone set up to use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate Epstein who he was calling. He stated his mother. I remember dialing the number starting with (347), but the number was not notated.” It says “notated.” I'm guessing it says not. You meant not notated? HE: 8nd it actually was, but when I wrote the number down, you know how you write it down on a piece of paper and put it in EFTA00062166

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 w ~] oO 10 11 your pocket, well, I couldn’t find it. So, there was no number. But I remember, vaguely, what the number started with, because I actually wrote it down, and I was going to - that next day - ask the captain why we don’t have a logbook, and here’s the numbers that he actually called her. So. ee : “Inmate Epstein began talking on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate Epstein’s call after 15 minutes. They complied.” Is that the memo you wrote? a: That is the memo I wrote. a : Okay. Just, anything we show you, which would be, in this case, the memo, just initial it, and put today’s date on it. Today is September 21st. Here’s a pen. ee: Mm-hmm. The time? a : You don’t need the time. Just the date and the initial. That’s fine. Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So bear with me. ‘i provided this to AW i. who is also new to the MCC. Captain WEN (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed i. but | responded that he couldn’t talk about the situation. The only colleague EFTA00062167

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whose phone number has is AW fF because he had to use his personal phone to email her his timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein’s body, prior to its transport by OCME.” Now, you said you - this states that you used your personal phone to email pictures of Epstein’s body. Why did you use your personal phone to take Epstein’s -? ae: For one, R&D is supposed to come out there. R&D is supposed to come out there and fingerprint them. They came out there. They fingerprinted and that was it. Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they want to know when we’re leaving, because fF sent me out there. So, I had to stay with the body until the actual coroner came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. This is his body. Where I had proof that the inmate was deceased, and he wasn’t walking off somewhere else. Because all the speculation now and in the news that he’s not dead. So, I did that. Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to | EFTA00062168

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 Hf con my phone. This is, boom, boom, 2 boom. I left the hospital at this time, 3 arrived back at the institution at this time. 4 This is when they took his body and placed it 5 in here lot. This is where th 6 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to Oo [es] oO . ct » Ss x 6 oO a] © Le) re] r= Ls 5 it) ba wR c ie] + © o. o ke pictures? a: I'm trying to think. It’s 1 been so long. I could have. But I know I had i=) a reason why I took them. nN ive) And it was practice for 4 somebody to take pictures like that? re did it for - I would h 16 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is 7 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the 8 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we 9 have a camera from the institution. -- was there a camera this EFTA00062169

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ee: But it - once again - they brought all the stuff there. So, R&D hada camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave it with us. I was coming back to the institution. Because they have a - each R&D has a briefcase, and in that brief case is a camera, everything that you’re supposed to fingerprint an inmate on, and all that stuff. And they have it for a reason, for inmates that die. So, they could have left that and said, hey, a. when you guys leave, you got to bring it back anyway, I'm coming back to the institution. I'm going to leave this briefcase with you. I would have, then, took the pictures on that. But they didn't. a : So, they left with the camera? ee : They left with everything. a : And the phone number that you texted to AWRMM, was that her personal or -? a: That (804), if I'm correct, if it was (804), it should have been her BOP cell number. I don’t know if it was (804). You have to -. Because I know I had, it was EFTA00062170

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE numbers. But two Hone number, oO and emailed her - s, and pictures 105 I knew I only had fF and I think, if it was (804), her B x It was to her phone. Her phone. Yeah. not email, in there? he id fu s transport by OCME. her, EFTA00062171

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 a : -- the timeline of 0) ) mt rh + i) H A D 1 pp ] ct 0 ifs) 0) oO anyone that Oo ~] oo 24 : 1€ I'm not -. Listen. 9 EFTA00062172

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 Ee : No, no. We’re just going ies) you have them, can w oe =) o wu rt 0) fw bh bh H J wu on r 3 er o RK =| n fe) Fh speaking of, ive) oo thing was - with those officers - ts) 19 that body. Now, do I believe that people was There was No i ct be) iy] rt = ra ( kK know how, like, if there is a, 23 you know, some kind of a use of force that 24 to use against your institution 25 film, was someor EFTA00062173

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE No, no, no. 2 | tti‘aiézél; -- (Indiscernible 1 from the 22 And the only thing Po told me was, 235 She 24 I _ Ss EFTA00062174

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 already at the hospital. He was deceased then. So, she told me to report to the hospital, and that’s when I reported, and I noticed his deceased body. ee: Do you know if, is there any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the MCC, or at the BOP facility? ae: That. There’s not a policy. They technically says it, but this, this rule was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule. When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. The policy states it’s not us. Our medical people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, let’s say if an inmate, (Indiscernible *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a licensed, practiced. They can announce that person dead - and I’ve seen it all the time - at the jail. It’s just common for them to say, oh, he didn't die here. They always say that. ME: 22 you -- ee : -- do you believe, from what you know now, two years later, that he was 109 EFTA00062175

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 110 deceased while he was here, at the MC ee : I believe it. ae: I definitely believe it. Hs: «So, he wasn’t still alive to the hospital, and what I ry ket he) 5 on bw P- a i) 4 o) b A. rt o i 7 b i) 3 oO rt like, in my this is not my first time around a z ’ os dead inmate So, I’ve seen inmates fall out, and die So, there’s no way And when I to the hospital, was transporting him, I met them at the hospital. So, did you see them take him out of the ambulance? : When I met them at the hospital, he was -. When I got to the hospital, know how you - he was the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe, secured area in the hospital room. But he was Ee : Do you know if, at that EFTA00062176

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 time, what he was wearing? ee: I can't recall. I can just -. Whatever was on the video over the news, that’s what he was wearing. Because I mean, that is on that there, with the thing in his mouth. That’s what he was wearing. Ee : Okay. And then, as far as, like, you know, all of the speculation that’s out there, do you have any information that would suggest that Epstein did not take his own life? a: I don’t because I wasn’t there. You know, and, you know, what I speculate is totally different. I mean, it is what it is. Ee : Well, what is your speculation? ee : I just believe that -. I don't know how they went in the room. So, I wasn’t there, of how they went in the room. You know, because, you know, when the doctor say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took inmates down in the room that was hanging, and the only way you can get -. I don’t care if that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you’re not EFTA00062177

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 doing it by yourself. So, I don’t know how they entered the room. But policy states, when you go in the room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. Period. And you can't just pop that door. Because how do you know that inmate is not still living where he is trying to kill you, and then escape? Or you definitely need help. That’s why you have to wait for a lieutenant, because that lieutenant has to give you instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift that person, where if you go - to me - there is no way, if it was two or three people, and we picked that inmate up, they wouldn’t say on the news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22). I just think, me personally, and hadn’t heard anything, but I just think one person was trying to do it by itself, and this, that’s no the proper way. And that’s just my opinion. ME: 2c. ae: Because in all the suicides, and I’ve seen - I was at, remember, I was at Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I’ve seen numerous, and I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at least three or four people. Midnight, I EFTA00062178

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 understand, at night, you only have, but it don’t matter. These inmates are locked down. So, they can -. You can -. If I havea hanging, they’re already told. I'm already telling people, you know to vacate that post. Yes. Anything can happen up there, but I would rather have three or four people with me, in the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because I don't know what’s going on. You know, we heard all the stuff that went on with peppy, so definitely, I don’t want something happening at midnight, when you could just vacate your post, come up there, and respond. ee: So, is kind of what you’re saying, that, like, by having one officer enter the cell, to respond -- ee : Should have never happened. ee : -- to Epstein, that could actually cause more harm -- ae: Of course. ee : -- are you talking about physically, though, too, not only the ruse of, you know, this person could overpower you, and now have you as a hostage, but you could become EFTA00062179

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - that person who was attempting to hang themself, or hanging themself -- ee: Would it --- -- : -- could it become more physical -- ae: That is correct. Ee : -- during the attempt. ee: Because what if - my thing is this - what if he was almost there, wasn’t deceased, and what if you’re trying to lift him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and you -. Because if, you know, remember, when they did the autopsy, then I would say, there’s no way he’s going to break that where, unless, you know, they was trying to say, you know, we killed them, unless one person is trying to do it. Epstein wasn’t 140 pounds. He was 200 something. So, there is no way I could lift that dude. There’s no way. So, I would never go in by myself. So, that’s my speculation, where somebody tried to do it by themselves, cover it up, and that’s what I see. Maybe I'm wrong. But that’s my speculation. That’s always going to be my speculation. Because -- : So -- EFTA00062180

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE that the harmed him individual more that ha know do you could have It could ha Listen. rmed what been anything. ve be than to be staff member, him i I'm ri] -- so, who went in could have helped him, but do you lieve that any are actua n the first place? saying? it tly, with them two, And that’s just me. It could have been ar lot in the BOP. It could I don’t know. ing ab en, out, while like, als letting letting EFTA00062181

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 116 1h] in the BOP? 3 = v ies) 7) ca e . ‘ 4 no. 5 s never 6 been a rumor that you’ve heard, that anoth 7 the one that harmed Epstein? 8 I mean, not in 9 it on the > 10 heard it on the B 11 know, speculating that. t Ww w i) a a] c 15 on that? 22 it possible for, 23 in with a 24 EFTA00062182

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a: No. We don’t do that. In all my lieutenants’ life, and I was a lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the fact, but mine, we’re taught this. There’s no ifs, ands, or buts. You’re taught to go in with enough people. One person, if it’s two inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if it’s day watch, and you should have at least ten people. That’s just like if you’re having a use of force. If there is one person, close to five. If you can't get five, you at least want to have four. I'm not going to have three people. I'm going to wait until they get there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, you’ve got to look at your safety, and it’s really - when you’re going to use of force, it’s five to one. Two inmates, it’s ten to one. So, you always kind of use that concept. I will go in with one less, so we go in, our job is one person lift the body, you have a cut down tool, which is here. I have one. And you cut the inmate down. That’s a cut down tool. a : That’s what they refer to as EFTA00062183

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a cutter? ee: That’s considered a cut down tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down tool. You get them from Galls. ee: But if they say, oh, he used a cutter to cut him down, that’s what they’re talking about. Correct? ee: They had -. They didn't have something like this. I guess the new warden wanted to order some. They cut down tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a small little cut down tool where, let’s say you’re cutting down something, to me, if yodon’t hold that inmate upright, you’re doing more damage, because you’re trying to cut it down. ee : So, you’re doing like this, and what are you doing? You’re shaking whatever is on his neck, if it’s tight, you’re shaking it down. These right here are actual cut down tools, where you’re going to go like this one time, and it’s just going to cut it. So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he is. Let’s say you do have -. Every SHU has EFTA00062184

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cut down tools. Because they do. But once again, who is responsible? That’s the captain. Checking equipment. Making sure your equipment is not dull. After two or three years, if you’re not using something, you’re always supposed to check that equipment. It’s normal. And then, psychology, they always do their mock drills. They do their moc drills, I think, quarterly. You know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that time, I would check myself, but I don’t - me personally - I would check myself. You just -. You would -. I wouldn't want to go toa hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, because once again, how does that look to me? How does that look? Like, if they did have a camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right. ee : Speaking of cameras, do you have any information, or reason to believe, anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in the SHU? a: Hmm. Actually, when I was at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera was working. And that’s just me -. My -. Because they even had cameras in the cell. I EFTA00062185

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 120 Ww w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras in the cell. ee : G-tier, and 10 South. HE: «10 South. ae: Hmm. I don't know if it was just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier. They had -. No. I don’t want to say that. They had -. Because when we went in some cells ee : Okay, that was the end of the range, or each end of each range has a camera. HE: «= X0. «I'm not talking about that. You have -. No. I - listen - I’ve been in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all that. But they had some cameras in some cells, and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? No. But they had those. I'm telling you they had them. Because I remember going in the cell, taking the inmate out. On what’s that? You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and show the camera. Because the inmate had, the inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was, EFTA00062186

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) w like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm telling you. This is, like, no more than, like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue off the -. So, and that was an old camera. cameras in the cells. a : So, you said six months ago, from today or six months from the Epstein So, it was -. There i fa incident? a: No. From today, but those cameras been -. Those are old cameras. not, like -. I can tell the new cameras are new cameras, I know how they look. All the new cameras they just put in, that’s an FY Was it -- a : -- in dry cell? ee : That was not in dry cell. I'm telling you. It’s probably there still now. It’s - I'm telling you - it’s an old camera. So, but do you have any information that someone intentionally knocked the cameras offline? Hmm. EFTA00062187

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 ay 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ee : Or just your speculation? ee: My thing is, I can tell you this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, it wasn’t the captain. But any time a camera was down, like, there would be - how you say it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, we would know. And then, it would be forced to make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP. So, if the cameras was down, especially certain cameras, they wouldn’t even let inmates out. They won't let them out. Because we can't see certain things. So, I don’t -. I was shocked to see that cameras wasn’t -. I was very shocked. Very. Because with those cameras, I think you could have saw more, and it could have either helped or hindered people. It didn't matter. I would rather for the cameras to work. I don’t care whether it’s there to get me or not. If the cameras was working, I think the investigation would have completed probably a long time ago. Ee : Yeah. Do you know who was in charge of the cameras? a : The captain. Because it EFTA00062188

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech. Communication. ee: Facilities manager, but - ae: No. But it’s still going to be the captain because it’s both of them together, facilities manager and the captain, because if something is not working, the captain should know first. ee : But how would have the captain, or the facilities manager, have found out? Who would have told them? HE: «Communications. They should. Listen, if a camera is not working in there, communications. That is - at that time, it was a. So, | job is to report that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number seven, number eight in SHU was not working. Number boom, boom, boom. We don’t know. But that’s his job. If a camera goes offline, it’s his job to say this camera is offline. So, the captain, then, could make that decision of what they want to do. Of how they want to go about things. That’s his job. That’s EFTA00062189

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 communications. initials 3 They’ re not 4 would have been - 6 Oo 17 person. oo EFTA00062190

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 125 That’s right by t ure out what that Maintenance -. -- yeah, it’s a thing. The CMS. You EFTA00062191

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 es : -- checked in the CMS, not checking with the, like -- ee: -- another person. a: Well, he said he checked with the team. Well, that’s -. It could be -. If he checked with the CMS, well, I only remember system, but that would be somebody in the region. But his office is there. Like, he could open that office, if something is down, he know why it’s down. Then he would report that to either somebody higher. Either regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what’s going on? Like, central office, or somebody. Just like the phones. If the phones are down, it’s the central office guy that usually fix the phone. So, it could have been the central office, or the regional office. So, that could have been the CMS he was talking about. Hs «Go ahead. Sorry. a : Just last clarifying. Just, I know I asked you the question. Was it, do you think it would have been possible if Thomas walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, hanging? As one person, do you think he could EFTA00062192

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off himself? MEM: ppc it. a : Ripped it off. a: Everybody was nervous at the time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, what’s the first -? What’s the first thing a kid do? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this dude because, I already know I messed up. I was either sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I could see all the activity that this guy is doing. All I have to do is go doa round. That’s it. So, if I'm not doing something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to try to fix it. a : Was it possible for him to pull it off without a cutter? WN: the cutter wasn’t working. That sheet? No. It’s hard as -. Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to EFTA00062193

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 take a sheet, and pull it, and you’re going to burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for about a month. So, it’s hard. Because my understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it’s a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if he had it knotted right, there’s no way you could take it down by your hand. HS: nc if a cutter was not used, if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it off, you think that’s not possible? You’re saying that’s not possible? a: Hmm. I saw what the media, how his room was set up. Actually, I’ve been up there. I saw it because they had the room carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot was still there, and you cut it, like this, there’s no way. There -. I don’t -. Listen, man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible *01:40:05). I work out. There’s no way I'm going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. There’s no way. There’s no way. ee : Be similar to, like, saying that he ripped a rope in half -- EFTA00062194

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 29 i) w R @ K Bb rt ct c o fF Once again, these ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed. They had it tied tight enough to where I couldn’t do it in knot (Indi 1ibl om *01:40:27). I did that and bu my whole hand. So, I had to -. That’s why I wind up Unl ke gw 5 w nw 'S iat o w Qo Oo Fh rh \ know how 2ling from the actual knot. EFTA00062195

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 130 missing, that we should know about? think about in the think it) } 3 + a i) any information that might help us inve ifs) tigation, clarify, though, with the AW, Po EFTA00062196

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oO wo WwW fea] oo And her think (Indiscernible that’s «OJ ister and like I her. it aid -- with EFTA00062197

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LIMITED oO oO co OFFICIAL USE 132 CERTIFICATE the matt EFTA00062198