DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: > 2019-010614 fon) c DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INS JULY 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00060373

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APPEARANC OR GENERAL EFTA00060374

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Ww fee) Ww Thank This This you, sir. interview inte Correc with of an tl 1 e OIG Special Agent EFTA00060375

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2 a. work for the Bureau of Prisons at MCC 3 New York. 4 Ee : Could you just spell your 5 last name for the record? - 7 Ee : Thank you, sir. This is 8 an official DOJ OIG investigation into the wo death of inmate Jeffery Epstein and the 0 surrounding circumstances and you’re being 11 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 2 questions Will you agree to a voluntary 3 interview with the DOJ OI 5 ee : Yes, thank you. All 16 right, so we got that form, it’s the DOJ OIG form III-226/2. It says, “The United States 8 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector wo General Warnings and Assurances to Employee 20 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 21 You are being asked to provide 22 information as part of an investigation being 23 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 24 General. This investigation is being conducted 25 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, EFTA00060376

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 as amended. This investigation pertains to security failure and job performance failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceeding or both.” And there’s a waiver section. It says, “I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” And as mentioned, this is something that we provide everybody for voluntary interviews, so you’re being asked, you know, we just provide these warnings to everyone just knowing it’s voluntary, you can stop at any time, you don’t have to answer our questions. Do you understand? ee: Yes, sir, I understand. ee : All right. So, if you want to review it yourself, please feel free, EFTA00060377

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo otherwise there’s an employee signature and then employee name below. Thank you for Inspector Q iY] ct m The place is - the time bh if) = b | | Ee : -- p.m. The place is MCC New York. Special Agent a. can you please 1) B Te} =] "] 77) + o tt] signature witness and place your f witness. o a 3 fa] a] wn t y Oo 3 my a. I’m signing as a witness. Ee : And as I mentioned, Li i) ut 0) ee : All right, as mentioned, don’t oO there’s a report that I have here. I think that it’s worth going o rviewi much in it. So, the reason EFTA00060378

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were the OIC is our Ww Lieu OQ right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this 3 : If it’s cand, just ask try to clarify anything 6 like that. What is y current home fee} And w 22 Ee : And what is your socia 3 security number? EFTA00060379

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wo 24 did you Communication of like some kind This is not really tc with the inte but is that lil something EFTA00060380

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Ww Ww Hi Q O | sss ES draw a little bit and do a little bit of graphic design -- -- from high school. Not +f) wu too much but that’s at I went to high schc What did prior to w het I work with the with the military. When did you get out? ) > rary Re it And what EFTA00060381

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Ww wo Y ou hotel, how lo that? Before the military, I did k, I did it just prior to EFTA00060382

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11 1 do you know from BOP trainin And how lo 8 whole time, s years 2 You were the whole Correct. 5 All right. said 7 Correct. 8 When we 22 rank or title in August of 2019? EFTA00060383

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I was off the weekend and 8 Friday I worked from al Housing Unit. And wh 1 position when you were in Housing 2 5 for? wo much mainté 21 paperwo making sure according to BOP poli Ww your EFTA00060384

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wo wo = Wo a : Well, actually yes, yes, Yes. ee : Okay. Great. Now I’m going to - we’re going to keep these documents 3 Ph ront of you because as we go through the interview, I’1ll probably a 7) 3k you about different people and you can just refer to it. When I do provide you - do you have an extra pen? When I do provide you with documents, do you mind just so that for interview purp we - it’s not to certify anything is accurate, it’s simply to say this is the document that I showed you. So can you just like initial and date on the top of each document that I show you, and it doesn’t mean, go through the packet, it’s just the top page. So, this one for instance, is the daily assignment roster for Saturday, August 10, 2019 and this one is the daily assignment roster for Friday, 9, 2019. And again, it’s simply to - you don’t EFTA00060385

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Ww co have to do each page, it’s just -. you for initialing. You mind just putting the a: 2021.) Thank Are you familiar with inmate EFTA00060386

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15 he did. 2 Do recall who that 5 Spanish talking uming you’re two inmates. EFTA00060387

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Ww Ww 16 s to go with a know what about him either trying to commit suicide or potentially that Po attempted to harm him? narm him but all I heard that he was Ee : All right, do you - is ing to commit EFTA00060388

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Ww wo all on the Correct. 2nd floor? All right. Was he watch? EFTA00060389

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1 around when that was? 2 I do not remember. 3 30, 2019 sound there a difference 9 ervation? 0 1 observation, you would have WwW e watch is because 5 suicide so going to be 6 in the nude, just a suicide smock ies -- 9 Ee : -- with nothing else. 21 entire time that Epstein was on the 2nd floor or was he was on suicide watch the whole time. EFTA00060390

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b ive} that he was ac tually -- Ww 5 time. EFTA00060391

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co Ww difference, what does observation? ological observation u’re in the same place, an inmate watching you at all times, yes. difference? Did you receive ing Eps a cellimate after he came back being a from the 2nd floor and placed back into the a : No. I just did it on my own. EFTA00060392

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call ever being instructed -- 2 don’t re WwW No, I -. 6 phone call saying, “Put 7 before, it’s we practice, if automatical y- So, did you ever kind of information from either 2 PF or Psychology saying that with a cell WwW 7 forget to put him with a bunkie. you - and I it directly, i] is email? Its 20 ays —- 21 EFTA00060393

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Ne] WwW co bh be A rT] ct 0) tad 0) wu to be housed with an appropriate Did you see that by chance? don’t remember this. 2) a) But you knew that was required to a cellmate. All right. And you said did inform Correct. Did you mind just -- initialing and datin receiving any her written -- re) communic a you about him being required to have 4 Aft =] rT] rt ct i) H arding the i) that EFTA00060394

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wo wo requirement to anyone else in the SHU? guys, he needs a bunkie.” something that you communicated only on the Just in SHU. “All right Okay. And was that date he came back on July 30 or would that be something that you all would communicate throughout his stay in the SHU? made sure since he was a high-profile inmate Well, we co rantly just wo and we actually placed him right on the top tier so where we can see - where the OIC bubble was right on top just because of that reason “ Hey, you got a bunkie?” “Yes. Because he was always going to his legal visits y- pretty much the whole d iT] Right. sure he had a bunkie. work then that night watch in the SHU? ME: '2s 1 working? Not that day, but in When he came back, made Okay. And would you also between July 30th and August 93th, d ou know if you would have worked that night watch? EFTA00060395

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] NS — ine] uw I’m pretty sure I did. I’m And all my overtime was in the SHU. Ee : Okay. And do you believe then that everyone who worked in the SHU would have known that inmate Epstein was required to have a cell mate? makes you believe that? the SHU training. training,” what training are you referring to and what a : Special Housing Unit training is, once again, the policy of what to do in Special Housing Unit, how to conduct rounds, how to deal with an inmate that is coming off of suicide watch training is the psycholoc and breaking down and what to do when an inmate comes off suicide watch, what signs to look for and pretty much making sure you’re doing the right thing when somebody comes up from suicide EFTA00060396

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1 watch. 3 way that people would know that if they didn’t is there any 4 attend the quarterly - you’re talking about the 5 quarterly SHU training? 6 a : Correct. 7 Ee : Is there any way that that didn’t - like people on overtime 9 or people that didn’t actually get to 0 take that quarterly training yet, would know 11 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 2 a : No, they would not know 4 ee : They would not know? 5 | ti‘(‘asi‘ésl They would not know that. 16 ee : And did you communicate 7 with people though? I know you’re saying that 8 they knew based upon training, but did y ever wo communicate with the people working in the SHU 20 that Epstein was required to have a bunk mate N c w ct N ho Well, whoever worked in SHU 23 would pass it down, “Hey, make sure this guy 24 stays with -” - whether it’s ine] uw ui) b “ oO I know we’re talking sp EFTA00060397

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N WwW wo 7) WwW wo 24 him, but whether it was him or all would say, “Hey, make sure ” bunkie. Kay. hanging was required to h No. Not that So e oO, I it was in bright orange It’s computer. c rt = wu U uu c o ct wn som oO rounds he has a bunkie at all time me. Okay. A it says, 30 minutes on Epstein, God.” This is what you’re referring put But Were the All right. I - paper. are this Yes, anybody you conversations? guy h there ar SHU that I put it nothing like from conducte this “Mandatory rounds that asa next thing between us, d Ww document someone mentioned that 6 20 EFTA00060398

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo computer, uming that this might be a confusion, mentioned that there was also a ument saying that Epstein was required to have a cell mate. Was on the OIC know what? If it was a : But I did this, I know, because I typed it up and I put it up there. Now the -. And t was on 4} EFTA00060399

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Ww co wu 5 QQ o k ny] Q I m rt t om Kn Bb 3 ere hat works in the SHU, i] a : So everybody that was in would have un o mo o after he came upstairs. Eee : And is that initially or after he came back from suicide ond time. - when he was -. EFTA00060400

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1 Ee : Sometime after July 30th Ww 9 a : Definitely prior to him 0 - or that happening. ast a few days prior to that as well? 3 a : It think it w 4 soon as he came upstairs from suicide watch -- "] rt o 8 prior to August 9, 2019. 22 Ee : And you do not require tein’s cellmate ever anything on th or on July 3 EFTA00060401

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Ne] WwW WwW recall we had but Id bunkie. 9u know, to do the Warden or the Captain or can remember EFTA00060402

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Ne] WwW WwW nothing to do with a cellmate. ee : Nothing to do with a -. What is the list is inmates suicide in the past desk or behind the it’s next to the phone, that’s where it’s w wu rt llow binder. 0 oO =] = le ioe) a EFTA00060403

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wo ho on And on the If I’m not mis Okay. I think he was. Would have he EFTA00060404

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ive) Wo 1 on back on July 30? 3 And how do people 4 get plac on - if he was on July 30th, 5 would an inmate be removed from that hot list? once their finished with their wh jer they inmate. that work? 2>d from the hot WwW y usually come upstairs it on their own. EFTA00060405

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Ww co ke t n ue] wu mn ) rh f RK Ww ) ] rt J | ' is) D | | o i] that works n the SHU know what the hot list is? training. He o th | eo) ct 4 Cc f D training, but that’s like when you should know that that’s - when at hot list information be training? EFTA00060406

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Ne] WwW WwW ioe) uw about of, re not in the SHU traini might not have gotten it, would with that people -. does their part time and th because I think chology - "y} va it and you go you first nt being, if off of suicide watch and are plac EFTA00060407

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo SHU, during annual verybody that takes hot list and deal with I | nv] ] Q bh ai ke Oo c bh i] 1] be fn re) 5 0 Oo re} A K should be on it, just pass it down to ology. To make su if you’re on kind of requirement next to you that be housed with a bunkie, you’re supposed to housed with a cell mate? And is sure that you’re uicidal but a cellimate? ae : In comparison to the EFTA00060408

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Ne] WwW co as well, but I just want to make ioe) Like if where -. desk, it should be about -ing on the o fs) c t fe} ot oO 0 5 b Hh D @ ct wu away from me on the next phone. Ee : And do the other COs that ould. should, EFTA00060409

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wo Did coming oO EFTA00060410

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did. Ww gust 9, 2019 at approximately 1:50 3 H o uw t i] Bh rh | A 3 fom o ta Fh Mh b Q D KR wf o jon Te] KR D 2 possibly may not return. Also that inmate a cellmate upon arrival 4 from his attorney visit.” What does WAB 6 t+ = to them, but in -. ive) ve] EFTA00060411

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Ne] WwW co Ww And I told him, - but I don’t - I Okay. What do you be gone, All right.” And a was Epstein’s bunkie. EFTA00060412

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41 N n oO c =] jen n b bh bal @ Correct. WwW ay. And do you know Qa oO bh bh mate? 7 recommends, “Oh, they’re about the same age. ” are pretty much have -” - not similar but, “This guy is an older man. This wo 0 guy has a cane. There’s not going to be any problems, we should put them in together.” 2 a : Are you aware of anything like the Captain and the Warden and even the WwW 4 Regional Direc or going through and vetting 5 Epstein’s cell mates or are you unaware of 8 Ee : All right. So, you’re understanding was that P wo ychology made that 20 determination? 21 a : Correct. 22 ee : Okay. When did you to be removed from the MCC on August 3, Nh } b a i) b EFTA00060413

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42 ie) ial ct a (D 3 No cr re) WwW time would that fn D ause R&D 6 usually starts calling people down around wo 7 and that’s pretty much 8 that is walking to 3 0 i) 1 ee : I won’t - well, it’s not m 2 alone with the two of them, but we walked 3 towards him he needed - he 4 was 6 both tc one who wo And at that point, at 9th, you did know that back or likely -. knew ing EFTA00060414

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Ne] WwW WwW re supposed to leave within come back, but there 9:00 a.m.? a : No, I know I was walking him downstairs to leave the building at that time. belongings at that time? -- already - he did have belongings. He was ready to it’s not always ng downstairs, 1lous, “Oh, this EFTA00060415

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ow oO wo wo 44 Ee : There’s been a lot of times that we take them downstairs, two, three hours later, something happened, “You know what? Go right back upstairs, you leave tomorrow or the next day.” ee : Okay. And does R&D stand for Receiving and Discharging? ee : Okay. What floor is that n on? ee: That’s on the 3rd floor. a : Okay. Do you get a - let me go through this. So, I got a Lieutenant log and a daily log. So let me find those. So here’s the - this top report, the daily )19 and oO activity report is from August 10, 2 behind it, it has the Lieutenant’s log from Friday, August 9, 2019. So that’s what I’m going to refer you to and I’m going to refer you specifically to where it says, “8:00 a.m.,” wa on down. It says, “According to the Lieutenant’s log and the daily log,” so this i 7] the daily log. I think he’s on the third page. It says, “Reyes was pre-removed from the SHU at 8:38 a.m.” What does that mean? EFTA00060416

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Nh No Nh wo Ne] WwW wo to That’s just when they put downstairs. Well, that pretty much ee : That just means he left? come back or i return, (Indis “Court.” t just means he left? Does it do with the fact that not onl building, but he’s likely not cernible *0 Well, it would ou EFTA00060417

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No WwW wo a : If he was going to court, Va) ” Court.” HE: «Xo, it would just say, “WAB,” somewhat the same thing? So does that mean that - so I’ve been told that there’s some kind of a court list that comes out either on like late August 8, 2019 or early August 9, 2019 would have said something with WAB next to his name. Ee : What is that called? a : That’s the court list that we get. So when I walk in or officer walks into the unit, t court list. urt list would have - I’ “Court,” or, “WAB.” ee : All right. And I have not seen that do ument. Do you recall if that actually said, “WAB?” 46 EFTA00060418

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Ne] WwW co something like this, just like this one. on it. the fact that this says, “Pre-remove EFTA00060419

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wo WwW wo 3 y D Do you believe that t! court list said, “WAB? ql K © it) Okay. Yes. That’s the only we would take them down. all of a Right. he made sudden, “Hey, we got an early Okay. So when you say it’s the only reason you would take them down, wouldn’t you take them down also if he was going to court? Correct. But, I what guess difference between court and oO - well, if I have a w inmate and a WA would both go to R&D and if it they would go down at the same that is where it would still the same thing. Well, one would still say, and the other one still would, I mean, nea say, Court.” Only difference is o EFTA00060420

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S) Nh Nh No N WwW wo 7) WwW wo WwW would most lik not come back. ay. What about the difference between what they’re bringing with them? court a : His bag with all his items and the person going out to court would most likely just ha folder or legal he’s taking with him. you believe that that that’s another reason wh + My document would have said, WAB?” y. Thank you. I’m going to just we can start getting t things away from you. Do you mind just signing and dating? Thi is the daily log. And know what the daily log is? ifre initialing and dating EFTA00060421

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N WwW wo Ne] WwW wo Nh No ee : -- this we would print out to update the Lieutenant’s Za i) K 0] Bb rt oH) rt = bp. o) ue] nt] 0 H 4 Q Oo Bp 3 te} ct is) Q fa KK 0 pan oO Wo ie] rh ve) w 3 jon Leal 3 te] ie] p- 5 Q rt ie) 1) ct fu H 3 1) rt for - would this this daily log -- 8:38, would the Lieutenant’s 1 have been filled out? I’m going to star next to this. Or would it he been at this time where it wi Oo EFTA00060422

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Ww wo 51 ” -- at night, would have filled out according to the times that are on information on the Lieutenant’s log, they EFTA00060423

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Ww fee) Ww accurat Like, All “Five “Oh, it going to put it in right. the numbers I EFTA00060424

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wo WwW wo Nh WwW bag with a couple of commissary items, nothing -. WN: ike a plastic bag or -. a : A plastic bag. We don’t give them anything else to take. a : And you also mentioned, “We,” who is we when you were bringing him down? u and the Internal Officer, which - usually if it’s two inmates, t has to be at least two or three staff fu fu 07] members bringing them down. a : You wouldn’t happen to, by off that list, know who that is? it was overtime, it was probably him. Sign and ee : Yeah, do you mind just, ur memo, do you mind ju t initialing and dating? Thank you, sir. All right, so, and just to sum all that up by what you just saw and by your understanding, you thought 24 | was unlikely to return to the MCC. EFTA00060425

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Ne] WwW to the M 5 n’t remember that one. 6 when would or 7 would a informing that proc 8 the SHU or 9 in fact not 1 ee : So, if he’s going WAB, we 2 already assume that he’s not going to be coming Ww on ou wu s o f Oo < w he = oO ie] fe) to] t irm it is right before fii) nt, “Hey, is he coming back R&D?” “No, 5 he already left, he’s gone.” 6 ee : And what count is that? p.m. count. 8 : «811 right. So at 4:00 from the should have you said R&D? Correct. EFTA00060426

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1 standard operating procedure? Ee : No, it’s just pretty much us confirming Ne] WwW give us a call, “Hey, this guy 8 he’s not coming ba So do you know if 0 notification was ever made to the S 1 ing that he was not in fact WwW Ee : No? And there’s no 4 standard operating procedure on that. 6 GS: os you believe that there should be? EFTA00060427

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ow oO oo wo wo wi i=) that an inmate is not coming back? : Once they leave here. So they all go downstairs with all their belongings. ee: No, no, no. So would it be when the other court people, inmates return or would it be prior to that? So, ke es, you said, he’s likely not coming back at approximately 8:38 when you bring him down. He leaves, it’s kind of assumed that he’s not coming back. We’re trying to figure out, when is it known he’s definitely not coming back. Is that when the other inmates that went to court are returned to the MCC or they return wu rr different times or how does that work a : Well, the inmates, they don’t all return together. They return different times. HS: | Bt, that’s actually a good question. I want to find that out too. I don’t know if they’re going to - they just locked it. es : I think you’re locking us in. EFTA00060428

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Nh No N ine] wo WwW wo ie] Ww UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh Thank like notified how do or not coming back coming back, not sure how sibly the w, either R&D would call notification, count -- contacting R&D? downstairs and we’ve got to 9 time and if they didn’t dot But if he returns, you. it) ure how they’ re know this guy is I’m served or, KNOW Marshals providing court list or anything like that rt a a w wp a f m ie) ct Oo 5 Hh fe} at os Pas fe not hat he might be pick him up. EFTA00060429

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Ne] WwW wi oo SHU leaves, once they v return from wherever they went, “You’ve got a pick up on three. what I mean? Would 0 uo 1Q Oo 5 o that are working in the know to call R&D to find Uh-huh. pre-remove, does that mean that he was removed -. How would EFTA00060430

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wi Ye) 1 the people that are working in the S know to , s been removed from the Ne] WwW 7 a : -- and afternoon court. on the 7) 9 s how people 0 say, “What Ne] WwW 30 because of the count. 7 A: | 8nd on August 9th, by 8 knowing th i) people you said that were in there wo have called. of those EFTA00060431

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o would 2 have called. co 9 ie] 5 D they’ re not coming back and if 2 R&D usually tells us, “Come 7 didn’t show up and R 22 two may not ha sumed he was gone? enough time in that I think he would ha EFTA00060432

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Ne] WwW Ww calle a. always call I think he would have you worked in the around 4:00 p.m. time, early, Now is that like a standard operating proc is] rt ju based upon wh EFTA00060433

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ow oO ies) wo wo oO) No ee : So that’s just like basically good, I guess, logistics and good -- ee: -- record keeping. Were you ever instructed on what action should be n taken if Reyes, who was assigned to Epstein as a cellmate, was removed from the institution? ee : If anybody, not only Epstein, loses a bunkie, and he was already on suicide watch, then that’s pretty much our training. If he returned from suicide watch, he needs a bunkie. If he has a bunkie and the bunkie leaves, we get him another one. ee : Okay. Okay, so in this case then, it was Reyes was likely to have been removed from the institution. What actions should have been taken to replace Reyes and when should have they been taken? HR: «Ss 'e11, as soon as it was verified or confirmed that he left the building, and Epstein was coming up from his attorney visit, which was probably around 8:00 because that’s the last, like the last call on attorney conference, last legal visit has to be EFTA00060434

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wo wo 63 out of the legal department by 8 o'clock. So, as soon as we find out that - if Reyes wasn’t there for the 4 o'clock count, it should have been, “Okay, let’s find Epstein another bunkie so by the time he comes upstairs, he has one ” already. ee : Okay. So based upon your conversations with at least || and you believe as well as a. should have they at the 4:00 p.m. count started making some notifications or started replacing Reyes? a : Oh, definitely. Definitely. ee : So was it their two - their - do you believe it was their, then, responsibility to replace Reyes? ee: I think it was everybody’s sponsibility. They should have notified somebody. ss «kay. Did you have any communica- let me just go in order so I don’t get - so, let me just make sure I understand. So at 4:00 p.m., they should have been making some notifications or at least requesting information on Reyes’s location, correct? EFTA00060435

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oo wo co wo ine] uw oO returned from attorney conference, by that time, that’s when a new cell mate should have been assigned responsible for assigning Epstein with a new cell mate? ee: So, anyone in SHU could do got to make sure he doesn’t have separations from another inmate. Bu rt , Epstein, when he came to the building was a big deal to everybody, so everybody wants to be involved. So I think they should just notify whoever it was, the Lieutenant, and let the Lieutenant ask around or speak to Psychology who you recommend to be his bunkie. : «kay. And so, being that Epstein was a big deal and people wanted to be involved, when should that notification had been made? ae : As soon as they found out he wasn’t coming back. 103) EFTA00060436

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Ww co Ww fee} re) oO 3 0 0 I ry n 0 H k Hh Hs 0) o. That he’s not coming back, HE: «= Sos at approximately 4:00 for a I assumed he was not coming back, I wasn’t sure he wasn’t was coming back. by the time ibility th oO That he could come back. Yes Did you make any EFTA00060437

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1 notifications to anyone aside from || and N | that Reyes was Epstein’s cellmate and he WwW was likely not coming back? 6 you know, communicated with any of don’t even remember who - wo on. You got the daily roster. WwW 4 Ee : I actually - I say I know I 5 remember ae So I think I - see, 16 I don’t want to say I did tell somebody, but A 7 was always kind of anal working the SHU, so I 8 probably said, “Look, he might not be coming \o oO rt a w =] fo = a oO 3 oo o < 1] un he leave through 20 the 3rd floor which 21 Lieutenant’s office sees o) a] 3 1] rt pe. 3 1] H 24 was like, “No, " t a bunkie.’ EFTA00060438

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oO N WwW 2) “No, you’re going to get a 8 bunkie,” and Reyes is like, “Yeah,” you know, 9 oing to get 0 don’t come 2 the way 3 it yunded a : I do not recall. 8 wo down, so. 21 talking about like, - or let in order. ( ou remember at 9:00 a.m. who Activi EFTA00060439

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wo at that y usually EFTA00060440

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Ww Ww back in that day, I kn but being that that wa remember ersations you cifically recall. ha d time ago, 0) Q fw o i) oO it oD Epstein all thinki about with them? remember seeing both of io EFTA00060441

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Ww co Ww And do fo ct fw B a D ie] t and I think I p || and then he passed it down or vice versa. ship with one or the would there any kind of EFTA00060442

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Ww co Ww fee} R&D would p.m. called down u R 5 re) rs a t ny rah a EFTA00060443

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Ne] WwW co 1 Ee : Was Noel also? And do you believe own - those 20 all of tho would have 22 required to have a EFTA00060444

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1 worked SHU b 2 while and a. he wasn’t even in the SHU 3 department. 5 would have known and Noel should hav 8 wa ould 2 Epstein 3 putting know when they 4 brought 7 Ee : And how would they know when the inmate 21 of course you silence that? should not EFTA00060445

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Ww wo know if they were? remember. And what time And 8 o'clock. And with all belongings, when with a : No, I don’t remember that. And is EFTA00060446

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Ww wo EFTA00060447

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counts or rounds. Ne] did condu though And Friday i sa 7 we’re - meaning, we 8 in so at one p 9 o! 0 tiers at 2 What time are count sheet. from August 9, 2019. EFTA00060448

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Nh Ww co Ww And GS: Correct. Middle. Why who EFTA00060449

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Ne] over the when we 9 er 0 nd 9 neral instit WwW | i 4 counts. Now the rounds are different than the S rounds, a it) wo ng that annual And I’m assuming EFTA00060450

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1 that worked that day would ha 2 least taken the annual refr : work in 5 the SHU know how to properly document counts 6 and rounds? 8 ee : And how do th to document? 0 NS: ie, through the training. 1 Ee : Do they - so during that know how wo Ne] WwW in, in, how do you log it in? Ee : Well, you could log in your 20 rounds on TRUSCOPE or fee} wo could in the SHU, 21 which the rounds sheets we still have, that’s 22 the actual i) fu paper that I there with the roun ~ io EFTA00060451

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2) wo Ne] WwW fee} wo ] co also have - do TRUSCOPE and log them in manually But not minute rounds. Like, int unit, your rounds. In SHU, you have to do it on u don’t ha paper, to write on did a round 30 minut I did a round within 40 minut I did a round in to write it HS: hen do you have to do it yughout your shift t, like within TRL have to docume you did it 30 minutes it - how d s not like it’s EFTA00060452

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what Ne] WwW H wn bh 5 to document a count or a 6 nducting the count or a round? : No. What know about co ing this? the count slips unds or the 3 The time that I’m there, it 5 : It ? 6 No. know anything nts and ople are actually EFTA00060453

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2 Lieutenant, 3 both h to era- so ther oO 6 was no SHU O o ir is fra] = 7) rt io correct? 9 was hurt, if (Indis 0 was hurt. 1 Ee : I think he was on leave 2 and then got hurt that weekend, but yes. So he WwW wasn’t there, that would have placed the erations Lieutenant? 4 responsibility on the O 8 Ee : Oh, okay. So, even if 9 the SHU Lieutenant is there, the QO Lieutenant also has to a round in the ee : And is it once per shift? 2) fe) K K o a round EFTA00060454

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wo Ne] WwW wo Nh No co Wo the Operations Lieutenant look like? What does certification, mean that he actually walked the tiers? if Lieutenant e that - would that refresh your memory? Would that conversation, the fact that s cell is now empty, would that have EFTA00060455

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Ww co Ww he saw ow, an empty should he th e time walk. EFTA00060456

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Ww co Ww do rounds, that’s where th Can you find did their round round in 9-South at 11:27 and he did it on 10- uth at 11: EFTA00060457

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wo South is ins And it’s like a unit in the §S o a : And where Epstein was Great. So -. 11:27 a.m., that’s when he Or more or recall But you with him at that tim EFTA00060458

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wo wo fos) ~] ee : No? And you’re sure in August of 2019 that Lieutenants at that time did actually conduct rounds of the entire unit to include walking the tiers? Lieutenants tell us now when we’re talking to them, “No, no, no, no, at’s the Lieutenant’s discretion. They can just pop in, check with the staff and then leave.” I policy, do a round throughout the whole 7) building and make sure you log it in. And in SHU, we have t! round sheets which that’s part of your SHU round. You can’t just walk into SHU, do a 360 and walk right back out. You ee : And what’s your opinion if Lieutenants are telling us, “No, no, no, no, no, we don’t actually have to walk the tiers, it) we can just check with the COs and go to the next unit.” What’s your opinion of that? EFTA00060459

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0 co 1 people know better and they know that they need N rt 18) fw Q rt i. ually conduct rounds? Every Lieutenant should WwW have to do roun 5 Housing, walk around every tier and every 6 range. 8 that? Is that something provided at training wo or how do th 0 NS: el, I became a Lieutenant and that was wu pretty much, “This is what you ve] Q fe) rt 2 to do. When you do rounds, that’s part of you tad Ww I tal 1? = 5 Q if] not just -- 5 | ti‘(‘asi‘ésl -- go and sign the book and 7 Ee : And at the time we’re 8 talking about, August 9, 2019, you were not wo actually a Lieutenant yet, but you do know that 20 that was still policy at that time? 21 a : Correct. 22 Ee : Do you know where that a SHU policy or is it there -. think that’s a Lieutenant EFTA00060460

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wo wo 2 N iw 23 And there’s a separate their round, we have to insert it into TRUSCOPE. So the Lieutenant, when they do their rounds, they have to log into TRUSCOPE condu 2d rounds in Special Ee : But do we know where that policy is found? a : I do not know. ee : Okay. you know if it’s found in the SHU poli a : I don’t know that. Ee : You don’t know? no problem. So what are the OIC’s responsibilities when it comes to conducting counts and round Well, when it comes to you got to make sure a round every 30 minutes, within throughout the day and we got to make sure round EFTA00060461

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co Ww ther make s right wa do you know for a shower dé and out, in and who until about 2 with each -- EFTA00060462

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Ne] know that I went 30 minutes -- I’ll fill it out. 0 1 it as 2 but we’re 3 all human. I - just didn’t 4 write t mean I down 6 Yeah. I just forgot to write it iown . Signing a 30 minute round she >onfirm that you did your round. know if EFTA00060463

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Ne] WwW WwW o ine) fu the people that signed this document also conducted their rounds? writing down actually in fact dic only thing I know is part of the times it would be off. Like, all right, like I said before, I walked around but I didn’t write it, “Oh, shit, what time did I do the round? ” but, that I wrote it down and I didn’t walk around correct? should EFTA00060464

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wo i) a : We should have. ee : Who should have filled Ee : If it’s a JN, it should be Noel. Ee : Right, (Indiscernible EFTA00060465

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No S) wo WwW wo WwW T and so Tova Noel? K © it) But you believe | is have certified the 2:00 to one that had a signature from have. It’s not - you don’t have to be the person (Indiscernible *01:07: i) could sign the rounds but I jj H I was in and out the range, so always signed could have signed the rounds someone like a conducting any rounds just to make sure that it’s filled out correctly. What would to that? EFTA00060466

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uw Ee : Excuse my language. That’s what we N WwW 5 HE: = Xecah. No. That's a big no 3 0 1 of 3 hypothetically, she’s that she’s doing 4 it, not based upon what people are telling her, 5 but watching other people and that’s how they 6 did it. Do you know of anybody else that ever 7 did it that way? a : No. Again, I - if it was - fee) wo if 20 happened. 22 WS: cab. You know, I got, like said, not to toot my own horn, but I am very of my job and I was Officer of the also won numer EFTA00060467

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Ne] WwW 6 sound like yo an ic 1 employ how do I co a] wn n Te] 5 bet fe) Cc ra ct az it) rt 9 thought it U was WwW “If you wo wrong, 5 correct it, don’t follow it. aking with Tova Noel out 22 Ee : No? And even as the OIC something newer, dealt with her with and to like EFTA00060468

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wo no. rounds within EFTA00060469

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0 i) 5 ie) KR N WwW | +8) 3 0 1 the round and walk down the 2 she was an Acting Lieutenant. fee} much have to do wo hing that the actual Lieutenant do “” rounds. But according hat time. rounds at EFTA00060470

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wo Ve} 1 82, is that »f N 0 iu) a] rt B Fh bh a fu rt c O 5 rt a fu ct rt a oO La 3 fu i 0) wu ct rt a iu) o Oo rt rt ie) =| fe) round shee WwW ct o o n o 4 of the tiers? 6 EE: 81) right. that’s not 7 Just saying that they visited the SHU, but 8 actually that they conducted a round in the 3 9 0 11 y- Do you recall 2 with anyone with ot) ial o “ 7 K ie} ct ie) ia] 12) 4 =] jen n oO oa toe ba Q c a ct ct ) o ra its) H rt re] O o jon wo minutes (Indiscernible nN Ww os) B tel 7 rt 24 remember if, you know, when u’re -. EFTA00060471

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Ww wo - saw that that Yeah, was | Monday. was gone by kends. But it was you oO EFTA00060472

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Ww co Ww 3 or remember on August 9th talking with conducting rounds on EFTA00060473

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102 Ne] WwW it, “Make we’re doing WwW ugh he’s 5 for the majorit 6 something, you know, when like 7 wo i you have 8 -- Q 20 21 make already got like from the Warden, Lieutenants, 7 ” our rounas. was oing to be EFTA00060474

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1 my next you on doing rounds and specifically doing No yunds on Ep from any 0 walk around a sure 2 directly, but in the indire ot) Q is) me thing with Lieuten EFTA00060475

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104 ou’re on top of it. 2 ee : Do you know from the time 3 that | was placed with on July 30th and the 4 need for Epstein to be placed with an inmate, a 5 cellmate. Can you recall any conversations y with | | with regards to Epstein? 7 a : I think he told us to put s. Uh-huh. 6 specifi 8 him in with Rey 9 ee : And again, do you know 0 he - Re was chosen? Now, I know you said he was an older gentleman -- 4 something like that, but I mean, you -- WwW wo recommended him or they looked through the 20 whole SHU 21 safest person to put him with. 22 Ee : Okay. And do you know if eople were conducting rounds on Epstein like N WwW ue] ’ 24 your sign said? Because you weren’t there when he was there, do you know if -. EFTA00060476

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105 1 : , after 2 o'clock, they conducting round 5 ER: §= ell, he would get back o'clock, right? 7 a : Right. I don’t -- on’t remember - 9 | | 0 showers or not going on but 1 while he was there or not, they 2 rounds. complicated, me. EFTA00060477

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wo wo midnight of August 10th. I’m just going to have you help - this is where, remember, I said I was going to help you, you know, put this puzzle together. I believe we already know the an fa wers but I don’t want to give you the answe lei A 1) s in fear that I’m wrong. So this i from the 5:00 a.m. count to the midnight count and I want to show you the Lieutenant’s log which, where is that? So here's the Lieutenant’s log. And we didn’t print out that paper that I made, did I? a : Which one? Ee : The one that I drafted yesterday and said, “Make sure we print this out.” All right, so, we’ll just start with 8:00 a.m., since that’s when you came in, so we can actually - the reason I was showing you the 5:00 a.m. is because I really wanted you to notice - okay, two. Is ZA the SHU? ee : And so 77 is the total count in the SHU for inmates? ee: Correct. es : Then we look back at these count slips and we see - sorry I’m EFTA00060478

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1 now where We're at the : 2 count 8 brings it down to EFTA00060479

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108 Ne] WwW 0 is it ZA count slip s “73 plus 1.” 1 it would 3 “Plus 1,” 6 : u ardl t shouldn’t be like that, it should be 74. institutional EFTA00060480

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Ne] WwW WwW Now let’s look at this. And told us this could this wasn’t done time, it should w -m. So we have says these a.m., do you removed and it Ee : All right. So we go down on dry cell from EFTA00060481

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Ww Ww fee} No. person in attorney, The water doing dry 13] | BR could cell in SHU. ng, dr ep my thought. brings it down. So EFTA00060482

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co Ww wn ver to - it brings it down that to He got kicked out. that one, correct? Right. And this is where it Would the thought mayb 1,” that one being Ferna they’ re using the f4. 111 EFTA00060483

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112 No he’s not in SHU. WwW 0: fe means, lave been 0 bodies. 6 don’t count ghost counts or you don’t count 8 a : No. if you don’t see the 9 flesh and it’s a stand up count, so every 0 person or inma ther it’s in SHU or ina 21 unit, they have to stand up for the count and one, two, three, four, five, behind you h to verify count. EFTA00060484

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Ne] WwW WwW gets counted. ee : -- and placed into - the count slip for ZA that uld have been - and everything is should } So -- - the 4:00 p.m. count should have in fact, if fs isn’t in there, that should have counted 75 bod at’s a good count. 113 EFTA00060485

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N N Nh No wo wo i) WwW uw CE: ict. : But now, if there is not 75 physical bodies in the SHU, then they went off whatever it is they were going off and verified it with is paper right here, which not everybody has access to it. This is the E-l that we keep count on. that are in the SHU, would they have know what the count was for th they’ re utilizing for that count? a : No. Unless somebody sa “Hey, you’re missing one, your count is 75. in the SHU would be able to actually know what number to provide is by actually doing the fw count? a : Correct. ee : Really? All right. So if we know that [J is now not in the SHU, how are they coming up with that 75 number then as well as at 10:00 p.m., they’re coming up with a wrong number and again at midnight, they’re writing down the wrong number. ‘re writing down the number 114 EFTA00060486

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wo wo that they think the institutional count is, but think of is they put - between the 4 o'clock count and the 10 o'clock count meaning somebody from the unit did something wrong and they ended up in the Special Housing Unit. So that’s how the numbers would be different. WS: «Sos if we have information out of the SHU. He wasn’t keyed out of until this count at midnight. ee: So he was placed in dry EFTA00060487

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116 Ne] WwW WwW 5 ent 2d a question. 6 So, with this I showed you - or first for RA and R&D, are 9 20 Well it ast R&D. Nh i) w i] Q wu is er @ oO 5 1) = wy its) oO 5 O =] @ oO rh H ct EFTA00060488

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Ww wo 117 It should be a BA go. Ee : 10:00 p.m. And j from suming that this “pa” ys, “RA, Would that It c i) 3) EFTA00060489

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Nh Ww co Ww that information r count slips institutional now, Instead of RA. do er somehow, EFTA00060490

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Ne] WwW co Ww together. E-1, which working that ni is p.m. and 12:00 and we’re trying to - saying we’re hoping that as -- put that puzzle -- my only assumption would t that EFTA00060491

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No WwW oo wo wo ee : -- rectify this thing. ee : Unless they cheated and said, “Hey, how many do we have up here?” hat’s my only - it’s either they had acce ifs] Sy they looked at it. ee : Because we’ve also been told at least by one of these people that they write the count slips before ever doing the count. So how would they know what number to put in the count slips if they didn’ rt actually do the count? Ee : So they shouldn’t and my other explanation is they actually did have the bodies, but one of them was in SHU and wa ta never written on the log. So now, there’ this 7] other thing called a PP-38 that shows who goes in and outside of the building and what moves are being made inside the building. ee : So would that help us ee: That would actually help you because it would - that’s our little cheat sheet, like I told you before, that we log in EFTA00060492

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 during the day or right before I get relieved at 2 o'clock, I’m going to print out that PP- 38, it’s going to show me every inmate movement in the building and whatever specific date I wanted. So if I’m doing today, three from SHU just saying, “Left to another institution, to Brooklyn.” On that PP-38, it would say, “Jones, Smith, Roberts moved to Brooklyn.” So now, I go that, I have 757, I just lost three. Now I’m going down to 754. And just like it is here, inmate 123 left to Brooklyn so now my numbers go down. Again, we’re all human, sometimes there’s a lot of movement, we might miss one or two. So this right here -. ee : But if these numbers appear to all add up starting the day at 77 -- ee: Correct. ee : -- I showed you at 5:00 a.m., then I can show you all the way through after Epstein, you know, died, where I’m assuming they definitely did the counts because there’s a - here’s one that was done at 11:00 a.m., I guess that was the 10:00 a.m. count on Saturday -- EFTA00060493

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wo wo 2 N ho 23 p-m. count on Saturday. They’re now all adding claim to be on this up with what Lieutenant’s log. I’m assuming if they were wrong on the Lieutenant’s log and right on this, that would be reflected in definitely get this document that you just suggested, but does this information suggest to that the counts were or were not conducted SHU? wrong. If the names conducted would actually confirm it i ] } Because an could be in §S keyed in s still in n rt wu Bh f watch, it a : So there’s no need to key Ss on him out. HE: 8nd the 38 will be able to tell you this? lo will be EFTA00060494

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N WwW 2) wo WwW 8 wo 4 able to tell you if inm a. was keyed out of SHU. Smith, inmate fu count would be different. be 75 and that’s a hundred percent accurate comparing ee : Yeah, so in talking with the Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant that was erything. fu midnight, that person said, “Fernandez was never keyed out,” and that’s why the count were off, a and she keyed him out at midnight and that gir u any more 50, that means -- 30, (Indiscernible EFTA00060495

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Ww co Ww That’s the reason 124 EFTA00060496

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No WwW No WwW wo kind somet subtr count perso going + of like fe) trying to hing on a piece of paper doing adding and actin Would that be a ssible way that Ee : So, if that person has that person just assumes that started in the morning a : So if the count at 5 ck in the morning was 75, not me nally, the pers to with that count unl EFTA00060497

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126 leaving,” and Ww 4 person, he or she, 6 4:00 p.m. cutional count knew what the in whoever was 7 the 4:00 8 the PP- 20 El. p.m. count, 22 ZA, it looks like EFTA00060498

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Nh Nh No N WwW wo WwW wo WwW Ee : That I wouldn’t be able to tell you if he did or didn’t. He has more time than s doe So it could have been a is) possibility that he had access. lists 75 whereas we believe it y. And being that ct J B i] fa] c 3 2) i] ini ee : -- do you believe that actually conducted that count? ee: My - I would give them the ay. And how would the actually did, how would they get wrong number and specifically the number that the institution had? around, looked in but not actually -. and that’s where in the beginning I was saying, 127 EFTA00060499

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uw fo) 10 11 12 13 14 17 18 19 “What’s the difference between a count and a round,” so a count, you’re actually counting the inmates, correct? ee : So the way you’re supposed to do -. ee : Not just conducting a round. a : Correct. If you’re doing a stand up count which every count is a stand up count, you stand at the door, acknowledge your presence, stand up count, okay, | is standing up, Smith is standing up, that’s two. I go all the way around, I do that to every single cell, the eight cells. By the time I get to the end, I counted 15, I write 15. Then the next person behind me has to do the same exact thing. Most likely, they start from this way, the opposite way and not - and actually count and you confirm the number, “I got 15, how many you got?” “I got 14.” “Oh, okay, now we got to count again.” Everybody stand up. Now we have the same count, write down 15, we go down to next tier. That’s how a count should be conducted. ee: Okay. But is that how EFTA00060500

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wo wo this one though, if they actual count, and I get that you’re ying them the benefit of the doubt, would you find it extremely coincidental that number that the institution wrong? WS:—«s Sos if they did conduct the count, they would have had the numbers wrong from the institution. had it ee: So, the institution -. Ee : And they just coincidentally got the same exact number that the institution had. institution - the } 5 m rt P- rt 7] ct h- 13) 5 = 0 7] a on s) 5s b ke — 5 oO = bP: Hh P- ct was keyed es : That’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying. EFTA00060501

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the institution didn’t Ne] w 0 WwW out Fernandez. probably -. probably fucked up and 7 didn’t just wrot it - it 8 comes 0 assuming happe but ust want want to know from Why do you believe that? WwW O 3 O no, no, no, why eeing with my 1 EFTA00060502

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wo wo the expert in this matter basically. Does this information tell you that that count wasn’t done? tell me that the count was not done and they just assumed a : -- because the body wasn’t Ee : But going back to what you said before, they don’t actually have a have to just kind of guess Go off the count that was at 5 o'clock in the morning if it was the same number. Or they logged in where there was -. ee : And there’s no log that can - there’s no screen that they can say who’ 7) 7] logged into this right now, who’s there, what’ our total count in here? | tsti‘i‘z@w No, it’s just a - E - well, that, no, that part, because I can log in and rt tell you how much - how ma inmates every uni has right now. Lieutenant. EFTA00060503

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Ne] WwW WwW HE: §= tf you work Control before, would have that access. been in Control prior to that date. number. two da prior, she would have access because that’s what worked in C and the well, all t EFTA00060504

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= ies) Wo i) a ason they U 2 you work in 6 a : So if | worked there 7 before, he would have access and he would have, 8 you know -. ee : Would he have indefinite 0 access? When do wo Ne] WwW : <All right. So is it - am fee} I understanding correctly, likely someone wo worked in Control and had access and they 20 looked to what the institutional count was 21 and they just wrote that down? that this - what did you call it, 38, is -- PP-38. EFTA00060505

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S) Nh t Nh No N WwW wo 7) WwW wo WwW if] : That has more - ro i Ee : And is that paper what the Lieutenants use to fill out their logs? Lieutenant log goes though, that could have happened? Ee : All right. And would it be likely that it was created once the Lieutenant at midnight actually noticed this di is] crepancy, would they have the ability to go d then correct everything? a day watch Lieutenant log, an evening watch Lieutenant log, and a morning watch Lieutenant Ee : So would this - would the - let’s say, would the morning watch at midnight have to the day before Lieut EFTA00060506

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Ww wo All right. on the EFTA00060507

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ee : Right. And when we read Fernandez on dry cell with staff Ne] Ww ct S Han yy Fh Oo K rt B it) is it possible that Fern Ph rom a cial Housing, SHU, to on dry watch, ically 2 reason for them to bring you from the SHU on 3 d watch to R&D on dry watch or would it 5 watch in reason to take you out of SHU -- you’ re short wo | | EFTA00060508

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N WwW wo 7) WwW wo 24 two officers and one on morning watch. ay. And morning watch, right. So what about the day watc have four officers in SHU during the day. If en you’re supposed to it would have been three, then removing one sitting there and I cannot move, I have to watch this inmate throughout the whole day. Ee : So with that being said, do you believe it’s more likely than not that o the dry cell in R&D at 3, we said it was, 3:15? ee : It could have been. Ee : Or because it does - because at 3:15, it says, “Fernandez -- i} i} ‘d ar wu a o Q o =) Q KR ket Q o 11 that’s SHU. : So to me, it looks like EFTA00060509

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2 cording to this, 3 it’s 6 should from Special Housing -- And who co 9 | | him out? Control or the OIC in SHU. 3 Ee : And who would h 5 it should 6 at 4:00. uld call Control, “Control, ybody from “in that him f uu = its) ct bh ‘e} it) ct "yy 0) K wu 5 on m t e in the themse EFTA00060510

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on co Ww 1 should have made that -. a : Made that change, ME: 822 right. yntrol cannot know ak in this R&D, li him he was leaving the building, made out count for him and just forgot about him. = ot) Ye] EFTA00060511

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140 can we acc HE: Sons SENTRY. 4 GN: Sry has it? No ~~ o Kh ii) WwW QO it. I just wantec That was kind to make primary reason for - I was on that whole thing Ww w 5 oF -hat indicates to you that 4 those counts were not actually conducted. And 5 again, for my understanding, from your believe now that they were not 22 Ee : All right. Just, I know there’s a lot of documents. you just m EFTA00060512

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Ne] WwW K oO wu fe) oO QO wu c n oO a WwW : Did you show him the 5:30? Now, right? him that that was counts. It started that day. : You got one more. a pain int iii) "1 n if) KH rt n oO oO i man. 1 D it] it has. Excuse me. Again, it’s just -- Excuse me, guys. -- you know, there’s a lot of d cuments that we talked about. like, man. being that we believe now that those counts U were falsified by staff working the SHU, how often were counts falsified by staff in the SHU a common practice? that happened four V i) ars in and I was just working the SHU for about almost, I would say, six months. So from - again, when I started working in the SHU, it during the dé . By EFTA00060513

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1 the time I got out of SHU, it was three of us. 2 So when I - it’s human nature, people get t) a i] ct rt =n o time that I was there, I didn’t this guy 5 rounds,” or, “This guy is slips. So, again, I was new in SHU. I’ve always worked the unit 8 and when I counted the unit, I had to count wo with somebo 0 Ee : Did anyone ever, since 11 you were new to the unit, ever tell you, “Oh, 2 SHU, we don’t wo 23 EFTA00060514

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Ww Ww fee} ee : You don’t think he would a : I don’t think he would I much. belie ye that it was falsifie that. I would hope not. not, but it’s kind of too Right. he did, you just ho wing him, that -. EFTA00060515

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Ww Ww a : That he actually did believe him to be a very dishonest person. He should do the 10 count, but sometimes we leav om wu EFTA00060516

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Nh No N S) N WwW wo WwW H jon Oo 5S rt 3 o rm oO 3 fee} wo ie] Ww Ee : Just Senior Officer? So do you recall what c versations you had with SHU staff who worked on August 9, 2019, including Michael Thomas about making entries related to counts and rounds? So, specifically what I’m asking here Do you remember any would have had with any that worked in the the 9th - ee : -- people that worked on the 9th, did you ever h conversations with the people that worked on the 9th about, “M sure you’re doing it correctly and this is how it’s supposed to be done.” I do, I would say, “Do wh KK o supposed to do,” as I’m leavi “Don’t fuck it up. Do ot to do.” you 145 EFTA00060517

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wo co wo N Nh N rs la Nh ine] uw I’m not saying that you would have had a conversation with them on the Like in general? worked on the 9th. -- of the people that So these people are the ones like Noel, i. a. you know, these are the people that actually worked on the 9th. Ever leading up to the 9th, so any day leading up to the 9th, would have you had a Wy conversation with them to say, “Make sure ” you’ re doing your rounds and counts correctly.” them - because everybody wants to work SHU. Yep. I’m sure I’ve told SHU is a pain in the butt, but, if you want to you got to do your rounds and do your stuff how you’re supposed to do it. remember any specific conversations or when All right. Can you those conversations would have taken place? Thomas has been working for the Probably walking around, anybody. Bureau for a very long time, even before I did, = nn EFTA00060518

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1 so he’s worked before and he knows what to 2 do in SHU. 5 a different department. But -. 6 :t2t about not - he works in newer J ue] i) ie) "oO aa oO bh bh Fal 0) | | Everybody -. wo | | She’s arterly bided post, 1 you’re the OIC, do you know if you had any 2 conversations with her or would have you? 3 a : I would have said, “Do Don’t fuck it up for us. 5 that’s j the way I speak. 6 When you “Do what h, what Follow the rules and do 9 poli 20 - So not, do what 21 to do, it’s like, do what you’re i) No U t o fe] n 0) jen rt oO o ie] Nn Ww =) 18) ! Q is) ' he o y] 7 H 7) o oO is = ion EFTA00060519

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Ne] WwW If it’s in black and white, that’s how you got And do you recall 0 ever saying that to Tova el being that she 1 was newer? 2 sure I - 3 to everybody. 5 | ti‘(‘asi‘ésl Even now as Lieutenant, I 6 talk to you more as a co-worker than, “I’m your 3 20 It’s simple, just do your job.” 21 ee : And I know I’m hammering confident you would EFTA00060520

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with Michael Thomas being What abo right way EFTA00060521

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wo me. He was pretty new and Same thing with a. he right thing.” And you didn’t EFTA00060522

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N WwW wo 7) WwW wo 24 talked about it, but what is the daily Li the Lieutenant has to pretty much and make sure it’s accurate right before their shift ends. ee : Does a Lieutenant have ir own Lieutenant’s lo i] t Q o 5 b ts] Lieutenant’s log? very Lieutenant h s on the 1are into - well, here in this building, you log in, you go to think it’s the G drive, double to see Lieutenant’s l 18) folder EFTA00060523

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Ne] WwW WwW would it be on something like a SENTRY s done into 3) A shared folder? with wn o wv ind 1) And is d fold there though? i) if] EFTA00060524

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153 folder, from my aside from Lieutenants have ee : So Lieutenants and above? Lieutenant? O 5 rt h Oo par O rt My i] rt EFTA00060525

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wo wo 154 that you’1ll be able to answer this, but are the times listed on the Lieutenant’s log that you just reviewed accurate? know. cr H i] ia ct wu bh be oO fw ta @ Q c ue] is) 5 Like does anybody kind of audit the a : The only way you could verify it and the only thing would be the moves. So if inmate movement in the institution, you could verify it because you go to the PP-38. Ee : And who creates that document, the You would call utr Control, Inmate Joe Smith left today.” Or, “Inmate Joe Smith was in 11 South, he was moved.” “Okay.” I could call downstairs at 10:30, that’s the time he moved, but it could be off within a couple of - it could be off a EFTA00060526

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No WwW a o kK 1. But what 6 we just said, we were going to verify if Fernandez left at 3:15, if the people WwW 9 nile 0 22 Lieutenant person moved ctually in a dif make that key c EFTA00060527

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Ww ” midnight. The time that he -- That’s what -- it wou and at what time he caus would list pr same thing in the s at midnight, EFTA00060528

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1 was moved at 3:15 p.m. to dry - from 38 would have the No wn 0 actual time he was keyed in. WwW 7 out or he didn’t find out until midnight that now the date on 0 the 38 would be August 10th because it’s after midnight. ot) N toe cS « Pe) oc oP a .Q ct =a rt — . Oo rt 7 Re wi H s t a Oo 4 morning, that’s what the 38 would say. But on 5 Gg, it would at 3:30, 6 because that’s when -. J H =] rt 'y 1) ra po o c rt i) o my =] rt A b O Q 9 Ee : So in this case, probably 20 the one. 22 Good to know. right, SHU have to be buzzed by EFTA00060529

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wo co wo N Nh N rs la Nh ine] Control? fe is] K a : When Control - does Control have eyes on -- “How come he’s not keyed i : Well, depending on the time. So like when let’s say it was between 8 o'clock in the morning and 2 o'clock in the afternoon, inmates are going in and out, in and out, even SHU, like medical, dental, court, attorney sits. So now you have six, seven inmates going in and out, not at all times you’re looking, “Oh, is an inmate coming out,” they pop - you know, you call for the door. You probably could just open the door right there, but then have to run to the window, give ay. And then just to clarify on that same question. If that PP will show the key in time of when the EFTA00060530

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Ne] WwW 5 “Hey, what time this inmate got downstairs? or whate Ne] WwW 5 in ), would 6 at midnight. 7 Ee : What is the time for the wo is) are 4:00 to 22 12:00, 4:00 to midnight. But usually, i EFTA00060531

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] would not leave exactly at midnight. You would leave a couple of minutes after unless you were doing a double doing dry cell. Ee : All right. Let’s talk - the fact that that this guy FY wasn’t specifically tied to Epstein, is there any chance two years later we’re going to be able to talk to anybody to verify when he got to the dry cell? even in the institution anymore, a . ae : like even talking to R&D, do you think that He probably is not That’s what I mean. So there’s any way that they’d even remember when this guy placed down there? a : No, because who knows who was in R&D that day, who knows if they’re still working here. es € instance, we have the count slips at least for But what about, like for 10:00 p.m. Actually, where there was no count slip for him at 4:00 p.m. but we have the count slips for R&D and RA at 10:00 p.m. and midnight. be able to recall if it was fF that they Do you believe that even they would = oO) =] EFTA00060532

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Ne] WwW WwW believe that that Lieutenant log saying that he wu oO left at 3:15, how reliable at this point, us at it back then and the person making night, how reliable do you view that 3:15 time? 161 EFTA00060533

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Ne] 9u know, wondering, how accurate do you think she would have made from - or moved 7 to 3 0 accura . 1 you believe that that is probably the right time? WwW Around the time th in the SHU has this is - again, like - when I saw report, I was li EFTA00060534

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No N WwW wo 7) WwW wo you know, has But what is policy on conduc And let’s remember, in August. 2019, do you remember what the in the to conduct cell inmate comes out. some of " ios Pp: Fh rt “ he oO =] ios h Q. ct ie] Q fe) hh P- 0) 2) 0) f b ee : -- during that shift? you know, in maybe if someone went to rec, every Monday, Wedne and Friday we showered ev body, ever cell EFTA00060535

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N WwW wo WwW 8 9 20 2? very Monday, everyone’s cell was body got a shower. So we took : And officers would search their cells? non-shower day how would would you -. when somebod has to out and we A: Say. And then, what is the responsibility of the SHU OIC with regard in and make sure they get conducted. y- So like, is the in but most the time I did it or I was EFTA00060536

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= oO 1) wo Ne] WwW 5 only found one cell search for June 9, 2019. 9 say? 20 22 Does 23 would only be one logged in? was going on during the day -. EFTA00060537

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Ww Ww be 0) know lie Eps I we worked ‘re nl cell until 2 o'clock would h th left 10uld h oO 1) o 0 0 5 Q is a rt 0] ie) 1em were conduc 4 he majority. he majority. ' Any - do you know bec at the Same time. who would EFTA00060538

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wo wo 20 N c N nN N a Nh Nh uw have done that cell search? : Well, took them out to the And is that like that jon Oo oO if) a : So, technically the OIC is - he has the big in and ou set which is - on the ranges and the door A t the tiers. a : But we were all involved. We all moved inmates from this tier to another tier. Okay, “You two on that side, okay, bring them out, search their cell. If I’m on this side, I’m going to bring them out, do the cell I’m not trying to be an I gotcha, moment, I’m just trying to get a understanding. So if all of th oO this isn’t - at all at any would only one search be entered Ee : And was that like, does EFTA00060539

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Nh ie] No wo Ne] WwW fee} wo wu know, unles could do multiple cell searches or click them that you did them at one time. watch is then responsible for conducting, on | tsti‘i‘z@w But it should be the OIC. es : All right. And does the fact that you had EFTA00060540

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1 earlier in the day, the fact that there’s none 2 of the day, is that in 2 4 ee : Not really because 5 throughout the day, much do the 6 So we went single cell. 8 3 9 0 cameras, say, “Yeah, all 3 a : -- you only did one because ow, they should night time. you bring back an inmate or you bring them out 7 to attorney visit, you’re still bringing the wo hould have been although they were yed in, do you believe that they were being 24 conduc ted on August 39, EFTA00060541

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WwW after would have been have because I know we had legal visits and maybe we had the inmates with their Ee : What about like medical? If you have the CPAP machine, you can get that. EFTA00060542

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Ww wo (Indis nib] this ou Is it f That’s a I just I just would be or snoring? what mach know know like d ir e on’t know. the middle of the the , “What the I think it 171 EFTA00060543

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172 1 no is] e or your throat so you 2 breathe better in the middle of the night. into the 5 linens. How many sheets and blankets and all you -. blanket. blanket. WwW 7 ee : And the wintertime, it’s o 0 his cell within the 21 SHU? 22 have your own EFTA00060544

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Ne] WwW WwW it] i) rt w E 3 o o Ky (e) determining what medicat Department. ee : And then they’re able to take it? u- c w Is ther o anything Ee : I mean, we’ve had inmates to take. H A } rt Qo o ependent upon what have it in their Ee : So, certain medication, the pill line, which is Medical, they’1ll come supposed to Medical Department will EFTA00060545

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WwW your own medication, it would be in your cell. se, if you have pic something? oes this look like it like it would 174 EFTA00060546

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: But would that ha Ne] WwW was you’ re walking o en I want to 3 you just let me know if this looks like an 4 abnormal amount of linens and bla 5 And we don’t know, so s 6 9 Ee : No, I think this was his when should EFTA00060547

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Ne] WwW WwW Ee : So at either 4:00 p.m. or certainly before 8:00 p.m.? was returned to attorney at that time, by looking that that was actually both Epstein and Ff look like more inmate so it looks like than 176 EFTA00060548

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wo co wo N Nh N rs la Nh ine] uw Epstein was provided extra sheets than he n supposed to have been provided? ee : He shouldn’t have. Ee : Can you just explain to me, how does that work? How does the process if) i} a : Well, when the inmate comes into the Special Housing Unit, we give them two sheets, one blanket. When they do the showers, we should go in there - initial these two? Ee : Please. Not all of them, we just need the top picture. a : When we should go - when we go in there when we bring them out to the shower, we should go in there and shake it down, that’s when we go in there and take hing extra that they’re not supposed to have. ee : So if he took a shower that day on August 9th - so you believe from looking at those pictures, he actually had even more than if it were just him and ia. he had some extra -- ae : Yes, he probably had like two extra blankets. EFTA00060549

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Ne] WwW 1 that? 2 out to 3 the they bring 5 shower but the 6 (Indiscernible * 13:15). . Might as well. you put them in the o 20 is the shower? 21 Are the showe n the same tier EFTA00060550

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wo almost like rt bh 1) like almost in the middle or the start is like the cond door. o K This one? No, it’s fu rt it) (Indi n ct 0 7] ct fu a ct ie) Ph Yeah. So if you come in, walk in, you kind of make a right turn. gate right it from here? 179 EFTA00060551

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1 about like the 2 have been in there, kind of stuff, so you 3 can just show me whe was provided should not oO = H 5 rs} = J D time he s wered. uniform -- Would he give his other Ne] WwW wo d for one because Well, we talk about it. nd what cameras should were with EFTA00060552

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Ww Ww not provi raining, but it also The training from working in tell people, who kind jers, who would peen working on looking at the daily assignment roster? 181 EFTA00060553

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Ne] WwW Ww D a. Monge and notice that there was an actually had two mattre floor, one had one as well. Would that be he was provided two mattr think so. Oh, we were EFTA00060554

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Ne] WwW WwW believe . | was actually on the floor? d to Ee : When and how would have a : Maybe one of them wasn’t gave him another inmates put it on the wall and if you don’t I mean, would they and to EFTA00060555

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wo wo 20 N ras N ho N a Nh Nh uw mattresses around because we’re going to put two inmates over there. y only have one, then we’ll take it. Ee : Okay. Is that a big problem if there are extra mattres th a : You’ re not supposed to, but depending who is in charge that’s there -- a : -- and at night time, if you don’t want to deal with it - well, not me ta oO if) or - but if some people don’t want to deal with it ” , like, “All right, here’s another mattress. Ee : So what’s the purpose of making sure that inmates only have one mattress n as well as the correct amount of linens and blanket ee: Well, the linen because y. The just so we can have for everybo mattress, the same thing, you only have one all you’re allowed. ee : Are there any kind of security issues that go along with it? ee: Unless it’s a troubled inmate, they’ll put the mattress to barricade the door. EFTA00060556

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N WwW wo 7) WwW wo Nh WwW 24 Ee : No, I mean like is there security issues that go along with making sure an inmate doesn’t have extra linens or doesn’t have extra blankets, is something, like, to do with, like, potentially escaping or harming t or anything like t tha rt er taught or do you know anything about that? Or was it more of an administrative rt thing? a : It’s more an administrative thing. understanding was administrative, nothing to do I don’t think the ything to do with was had the corr - amount of linens and and thing a : Everybody. ae : Everybody. kay. What - can you = co 1) EFTA00060557

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- we're going to move to the next Ne] want to follow up on WwW that? 1 Ee : And is that li days from the time that Ne] it like on WwW ct p i) a) = oO A B it) is the 21st 5 inmate arrives to 6 wo jon 21 days or at 21 days, he 22 cell that is not cell 101. ponsible f kind of makir happens? EFTA00060558

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1 Ee : The Lieutenant should but usually we all go and assist them ) oO © K wn oO o t tr) Ww nT] 5 oF a print out of the 21 - “Oh, this 4 guy is on 18 days, it’s time for him to move.” 5 “Oh, this guy is on 21 da let’s move him.” wo o it’s not like the OIC’s responsibility, it’ 7) everybody’ if] 7) WwW K i) 3) Hed s long as you same cell for more than 21 days, you can 16 as it doesn’t go over 21. 8 to make sure that that’s done or is it some wo kind of an alert that is provided? 20 | tsti‘i‘z@w Excuse me. Usually the 21 and the Lieutenant. 24 EFTA00060559

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Ww Ww 10th was in the wro who 0 All right. Ic All right. then Now are kind of like your job ev 7001 And then is responsible for could do it - to do it on my aware that = co oo EFTA00060560

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wo wo 189 Ee : And so he was in cell 220 as we just discussed and in the system he’s logged in at 206L. Do you know anything about that? ee : I actually found that out the week after. IS: «(indiscernible *02:20:49) so, if you found out, do you know why that is, like what happened? Because obviously the conspiracy theorists are going to be all over that if that gets out, that he was in the wrong cell. So, do you know if it would have been one of those things that - was he ever moved or was he just moved in the system or vice versa? Do you know how that -- a : chink -. Ee : -- discrepancy happened? a : I think what happened was when he was moved up from suicide watch, he was placed in, let’s say, 206. And then, after he went to attorney conference, when they got him with his bunkie - I mean, once, let’s say, he went - he did go to attorney conference, “Okay, he’s coming back, we’re going to put him with " this bunkie,” we’re just going to move him and EFTA00060561

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190 him in 3 ° you know if Epstein than 22 5 He was ‘ually with 3 0 1 on that? 2 Does it show 3 a : Trying to remember what is the first page and - I would just assume ee : The numbers are off -- EFTA00060562

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191 1 reason. 9 3 ee : And we all - and we can’t I mean. the wrong - they show the wrong - letters although the numbers I’m WwW wu a » =] te} = oO c = om oO o " that this would be the 5 second floor and this would be the first floor. the bottom. ir bh 03) 13) =] 22 showing -- EFTA00060563

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Ww co Ww you’ re looking EFTA00060564

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Ww this is tt Lieutenant’s That is on the where -- that’s reation -- ght this was -. floor and this is Yeah, we're ask the this is - if that this is the EFTA00060565

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Ww wo could look up to this circle where you’re pointing and just put r’s Station. And this would be a : -- like I was telling Ee : Oh, so this is the shower here? All right, so the shower is actually Ee : Shower. And then, if EFTA00060566

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195 2 Or is even? I 3 206 -. m 6 the opposite side. 7 d would 8 itt L Tier? 9 206 is . That’s 0 the 1 , SO 3 a : Lower and then like upper. 6 say that on 8/10/2019 that’s where he should 9 lower? Does that we i range,” 2 Oo oO U ct a my rt | | EFTA00060567

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Ww Ww wo a : So he went from 201, which that’s G Tier, to suicide watch on the 8th of p f + + 7 D 3 a 0 D a T = should have returned. July 23rd he was in suicid 0) July 29th, he went to SHU - What cell was he placed in? on July 29th. Then - EFTA00060568

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WwW hmm. He has - so he was never placed in 220. d him into J i] was U would their own 206 could be confusing because I think it EFTA00060569

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Ne] WwW 4 conf 5 - absolutely. 6 7; they the bottom, 8 two is on to 9 bottom, WwW 6 suicide watch, it sounds like, like you just said, on the 29th of July. upon that email. So the ts] EFTA00060570

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co Ww :-— keyed him in like? a bunkie into the right cell. who would have keyed in the 206? ee : Yeah, like, I woul ere know who and him, he was dn’t ey put him there put I would did? = wo Ye] EFTA00060571

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1 decided that he went into 220? My 2 understanding is he was placed in that cell 3 - could all - you front. y put him 6 can see him, but maybe || was in 9 determination to place him in that cell? Not me. 1 Like I said, maybe because || was already in WwW before. I thought the 8 what I was 9 determination was made because from the EFTA00060572

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Ne] I’m asking you know who made cision? tween the WwW a : Well, when he came - when up from suicide watc hould ha put we conduct the bed book cx unt whi we didn’t. It re “ him, EFTA00060573

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WwW wo | | wu WwW wo 23 saw that he was in the wrong cell. ee : So that’s what I guess, so how would that - so I gue it) s the question is, how would it be noticed that he was in the wrong cell? Is tha to be like reviewed How does that -- a : When you conduct a bed -. and I don’t know, so ee: Well, no, when you conduct a bed book count, w now, it happens every fore, maybe once t time you ice would be, him,” you would have came with the bed book count. ee : Now, are you confident from the tim that he was always @ he returned from suicide watch? I remember? EFTA00060574

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I remember he 2 was in another cell, he was in 3 was right before 9 co ed o o ty BP if) 3 he was up cide watch and he was already up : All right. 22 two know of is he was with Ee : So from basically July, EFTA00060575

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Ne] WwW WwW at least 30th, the 29th, always in? Ee : This 206 thing was an Ee : And it would have been ed bo nts other than that bed book count, is there that would have been that or should a : Maybe when, if you were were m 220 - I mean, from 7/29 to 9th to August 10th, he was always All right. Now EFTA00060576

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oo wo ow fon) o ine) Oo wo ine] ine] uw N cs) wi we’re going to talk about - do you mind just initialing. Now would the Lieutenant have any oversight over this as well? ee : If he was there, yes. ee: Is that something he suppo- he’s, you know, I think it was, we were told that the Lieutenant comes in and audits thi 3) 103) the books and things like that. I something that he would have been auditing? because I haven’t worked like as a SHU if that’s - oO Lieutenant, but he does have to confirm the rounds. Only way he would order that is probably before the SHU meeting, which the SHU meetings we usually had on Thursdays. ee : Okay. Anything more you want to ask on that? a : I don’t know if you want him to sign the SHU. Hs: |) We’ re still going to look at that. So, this has been a great confusion too that we’re hoping you can help us. What cameras are actually located in the SHU outside of 10 South and G Tier? At this point in time. 4 he EFTA00060577

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6 : walk in 8 again, I 0 1 e to determine 2 the second 3 ‘s cell A 7 ee : -- a camera right here. That points down this 20 22 cell wo EFTA00060578

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Ww Ww though 1s South? es. This is the entrance 10 - I’m putting 10 LT’s I’m circling South Is Where would Epstein have EFTA00060579

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WwW wo other That would I’m J up that way. point of cameras other than this in the SHU? EFTA00060580

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Ww wo all of them. Now -. working. if) That should EFTA00060581

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wo “Visiting elevator,” what yo a: downstairs, bringi the ng the S visitors does u walk i dn’t kn HU, the actually they walk w n through the Ow into the room sitors. called tt! siting Sally. 210 EFTA00060582

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211 2 we 3 this? t’s 10 South. i] This is 10 South? And un And again, 10 South. I 9 did you want to identify - 0 Ww ia ra ay oO ct p fe) a o | | uw = Len rr ri) fw J -- pictures out of this 6 and just look at those three. All right. So J ct a i) Fact that we only have these three camera 8 angles wu a] nd saying that these are the three that 9 are only working, do you know if all 21 should have been working on each of the ranges? 22 a : Well, they should have. single one, was located, EFTA00060583

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Ne] WwW that pointed down. ould ha a working the camera. It time, I don’t know if it did but the camera was on the wall. know anything t working making sure that the cameras were working? Com Tech. 212 EFTA00060584

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Ne] WwW co Ww to talk to about tell you more or fu rt rt a fu rt worked or didn’t work wu A ct a D talked to y OIC or would h not workin That I know of? No. All right. So about the cameras? Is this EFTA00060585

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wo wo Ee : I mean, I’ve heard it in om the building. ee : Is that - does that raise suspicion for you the fact rt p o 3 D = U . on eC rt 5 ie] rt Ph H these cameras aren’t - they don’t have video of these a : Not really. This building, there’s always something going wrong in the building. So, it wouldn’t surprise me or fw fo didn’t surprise me when they said the cameré weren’t working. that many? If we have how many tiers are in - have any cameras for any of the six tiers then. said, sometimes the lights go off in the tier and we got to re 7) et the breaker, so ever since is) tarted, there’s always been a problem with oO something not working in this building. So the EFTA00060586

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uw oO 10 11 12 13 14 17 18 19 camera doesn’t surprise me, it’s just another thing that didn’t work for the moment. ee : So this is where like, it’s just like, what are your - what is your opinion on the fact that we got no cameras working on at least, you know, definitely on Epstein’s tier, he’s in the wrong cell, you know, we could always - you know, the counts are basically, you know, potentially falsified, the counts weren’t done. Is there anything that you’re seeing here that you’re like, “Somebody is covering up for somebody,” or, “Somebody is like manipulating things or deleting cameras or taking anything down?” Is there a reason for you to believe any of that? a : Mm, not really. I said, going on seven years now, a lot of stuff has gone wrong in this building and I highly doubt that stuff was on purpose. My -. HE: | What about even to just cover up -- MEN: belies -. Ee : -- from what they were doing administratively? Is there anybody that would have been able to, like, knock cameras No ra ul EFTA00060587

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wo No, would tt 50 like, Go somewher No, we turn from -- manipulate the syst hing? like 216 EFTA00060588

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Ww co only person BOP know who All right. Are 9, 2019, when J worked and what don’t you aware ies like in - I were were, he’s on here, let me see. Ee : I didn’t even think he was here that day find him on there and tell me if y and king at the daily EFTA00060589

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wo bottom, you’ll find his Correc Unit All right. So Team, 7) 0 non-cust ie] O bh D A w 3 jon i] 1] : = i") if) much serving to DHO, ¢ is ct b o give out EFTA00060590

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Ww wo 2019 know anything 2019? cnow anything a telephone call You ever hear anything a telephone call from EFTA00060591

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S) Nh Nh No ine] N WwW wo WwW wo WwW 4 in general ever making that shower? 1p though? the shower. Usually the phone to phone through the slot. call, 15 minutes are up telephone call from the shower doors to speak in there. Has before? would The reach would that ‘re inside the tier working. know about inmate 7] Oo you telephone calls from not supposed to. hey’ re not supposed to? s there a jack there The y make their phone , you take the ph shower, they plug the telephone and then and allowed him I guess that ever happened think only place tha be G Tier. Bec use wu the jacks weren’t Ss; nd EFTA00060592

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No K o v p H rt a Pp S tan rt 7 o ower was 3 in G Tier. I think one -. 4 Ee : It was a shower in the G ct 7 o ra | be @ ta rt fe) 8 he placed a telephone call from a shower, not 9 necessarily the L Tier 0 telephone call from the shower, a shower and it was plugged into a non-recorded line. Ne] WwW 5 on a recorded line, from my understanding. 6 GS: 8 ight. So is that something that you would allow inmates to do? 8 a : Personally, I put them its) er is) o fs] ct i] pe 6 fs] law EFTA00060593

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WwW downstairs. a : Not really, unle yuldn’t put him on the libr couldn’t put him in the rec that he wanted to call his mother? be recorded. calls, they reason why that it would be on a legal lir would be a call his, quote, unquote, mother? There shouldn’t be. EFTA00060594

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wo No WwW wo ine] f Nh No your minut He: )= This is st you’re hearing of it? for him to shower then and plug it in the legal line? a : Unless he told him he was calling his yrney, but even with that, t’s how it should have been. someone d to moni phone call? actually EFTA00060595

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Ww Ww though it’s not other than a legal recorded? And does eve know that? SHU - how do from the - on SENTRY, TRUFONE, ) we just print that or should - I don’t know if t EFTA00060596

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No WwW WwW still doing Hh request or it - I put it, th the phon your name down allow him t shower area ll is , left and PIN. So if he Is he didn’t have didn’t one? have , he could in tho fe] ta oO EFTA00060597

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co Ww Suld have b call? uld have. a : Yes. He should just not stand there and listen to his conversation, but wy but monitor K i) o fu bh be fe) fog p- 5 rt Oo =] fu D ct Pp io) a a] bh bh EFTA00060598

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N WwW wo WwW fee} wo who should have done that? w oO i?) it) Cc oH oO 3 fii) U ct @ fe) 5 i) who put him on the phone. All right. And he shouldn’t have passed that responsibility off a : So if, for instance, the Warden says, Mr. Smith a phone call, a five minute phone call but make sure you stand there and monitor it,” then, “Here’s the phone, it’s going to be on a non-recorded line,” but I am going to stand there and list en to your fe) ny conversation because it’s not a legal 'S y call -- Ee : -- it’s just kind of like a Phone call, you’re given the opportunity to call your family. Okay, you’re phone call is done? Thank you.” Hang up the phone and walk away. And how are those calls EFTA00060599

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Ww person they wanted o cific number call only. , allow off RK him Should be a book. In a written book? to have this social EFTA00060600

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Ww Ww 229 given the ability to vet people and you have ee : Like the monitored calls. given that - what’s it called? Ee : PIN and PAC, if you’re fine. But do you know if he had a list or no EFTA00060601

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1 someone has mentioned that there was a list, 2 but I’m not aware, I ven’t seen a list, so I 3 wondered if he would know. no list would have ever -- nothing would -- 7 Ee : -- been generated, right? 1 attorneys, that would be the only list he 2 should have. 6 that they would like to call or keep as a contact, anything like that? 8 a : So you’re asked for an contact, and that’s it. When you see wo eam, you give Unit 1) w 3 wu bh B if) ins O Fh Hh u 3 P- bh het EFTA00060602

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N N No S) wo WwW wo WwW only make Team there present. a : If he did give that name to the Unit Team, =>re would they put it? HE: )« hat would be Unit Team. I A don’t know where they have -. xtremely abnormal? Have you ever heard tT nat oO of something like that before? Somebody being provided a phone call? | ti‘(‘asi‘ésl It’s happened before. ee : Not having one of these PAC and PINs and then walking away and letting un ue] 0) fu * a : Well, it’s happened where given inmates a phone call or transfer a phone call don’t have a PIN and PAC, but most of the time it’s a five minutes call whoever you’re going to call, just like if Chaplain receives a death notification in the family, he brings you up, he Ne Ww Rr EFTA00060603

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo 20 79 five minute phone call, but he’s sitting there next to you listeni your phone call is done, go back to your cell.” him a call, fact happened where | gave calls problematic or aldn’t happen, but y 7) happened. 6 you think i wu around him, he’s a big deal,” or EFTA00060604

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Ww co on his head to do. at would be though or if at all? HR: §« Should not have did that Ee : But if it didn’t happen, inmate. Anything more on - we’re almost interactions with Ee : Well, he only spoke to two, EFTA00060605

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3 with both alw 0 iat © with each wo calm. ie) f K D fu Anything -- EFTA00060606

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Ww co Ww And he said, “Why not?” I is what it. I brought him downstairs to attorney visit. though or out of the ordinar No. H 0) was very polite. Was he complaining about the jumper? about a like normal. hat he was in just, you know, EFTA00060607

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No. was in prison? o P- 5 Ww co prison? 0 a : Not really, to me, just an i 5 a fu rt 1) with Ep 4 Ee : Mornings, I mean, “What’s have pretty 7 Ee : Anything of substance fee} 21 didn’t work Oth, corr EFTA00060608

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Ww Ww Ee : And did you speak with at that tim 4 wy rt fs) b pb om K Q c ra oy] K I 5] 0 I Q b- ct Oo What wa your he died? a : According to what I heard and they said it was a suicide. a : Suicide? And do you kno ee : Do you know anything tak yj his own life? EFTA00060609

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Ne] WwW a : If he was still on suicide have still been on suicide wat a : If he was still on suicide supervision. WwW placed in SHU or important bec EFTA00060610

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Ww fee) WwW fee) You do? think week and population -- typically on suicide watch and all tt least two we watch or psychological -? a : Yes. Well, this is my - very important, EFTA00060611

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ow oO wo wo 2 fs) v : Right. And with all that we talked about and like, you know, again, speaking about the cameras, the, you know, logs, the count, shifts, you know, all this kind of stuff, do you believe there’s any suspicious activity at play with regards to Epstein’s death? ee : I think, maybe when he came to maybe a round or a count sheet, could kK Oo its] have been stuff messed up, but any foul play with staff, I don’t think so. Ee : What about even with like Psychology placing him into the SHU a little early? I know you said it’s because he was Epstein, but do you think that it had anything to do with people hoping he killed himself? + don’t think so. ‘t think so. I think ' o ie) 5 this building is always under the radar with everything so instead of attracting attention, “Let’s get him out of -” - because if not, his lawyer is going to eat MCC alive, that’s what a lot of, I feel. This building is worried about EFTA00060612

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Nh No wo Ne] WwW wo being on the paper. They also committed suicide. ee : Oh wow, right.. Now what ee : With regard to harming Okay. What are some inside the allowed for Staff constantly working doubles with little of s oO sleep in between. I think that’s - we don we don’t cifically EFTA00060613

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wo WwW fee} wo ee : What about if you’re told that people weren’t doing counts and rounds, do you think that played into it as well? ae : Do you think if rounds were actually conducted, he would at least be alive on August 10th? a : It takes three minutes for a person to - when that’s something look the line. If he wanted to commit suicide, he would have whether the staff would conduct the rounds i) is] o J im jon wu a : Depending who the cell mate also had medical problems. I think it would is and how the cell mate sleeps, bec w @ us have been more of a chance for him to be alive oO if he had a cellmate. Not that -- a : -- he definitely would not oO i} ie) No EFTA00060614

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Nh im) 1 believe holds the most responsibility for 2 reassigning Epstein with a cellmate? 3 a : I think everybody played a 4 little bit of part. 5 ee: And can - and this will 6 be the l i s] t ques fw U tion, tell me what people - what part people played in like how that could 8 have been rectified as far as getting him a new wo cellmate? 11 Ee : Where it should have 2 begun, where should it have ended? 3 a : So it started with his 4 bunkie leaving. So, yes, I told my relief he 5 needs a bunkie. Maybe R&D should have called, 16 say, “Hey, this is Epstein’s -” - the whole building knew who Epstein’s bunkie was. R&D g Pp 8 should -. wo nw 18) } 07] it acceptable for 20 anybody to say, “I had no idea who Reyes was N c w 5 QoQ H ow that Rey was Epstein’ it) N nN oO =] 5 a D . N a No. Nh Did everybody in the building at the time know? Nh uw EFTA00060615

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1 in building. 2 did they know co for interrupting, I just wanted to ask this. o = O n p- =] te] tenant, m ould hé fee} a EFTA00060616

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Nh h No N WwW wo fee} wo he oO 4 on i on rt 1] , bh fu fa p i) c rt 0] 3 wy 5 rt Ee : Oh, I definitely, without a doubt, strongly believe I told more person that Re} was leaving. I know you as Lieutenants, do you, without saying I can y believe that you told a is] a : Ye I think I spoke to Epstein that he wasn’t coming back,” do you downstairs and within one hour, two hours, right Ek EFTA00060617

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Nh No No ine] N WwW wo WwW fee) wo No Ww 4 end up coming back. Or they say they going to court, they’ll spend two, three h in R&D and come back. Captain. Should hav Captain? didn’t tell their relief, notified their relief? or to t Well, if I can tell who Lieutenant -. ours he -- nobody notified the they If it’s claimed that should have they they 246 EFTA00060618

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No So something Ne] WwW you pa Now let’s say this WwW -- until he’s relieved or 9 and then j 20 goes unfilled f two 22 a : He could leave at 2:00 rations Lieutenant until 4 EFTA00060619

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Ww Ww Ops Lieutenants to leave two hours earlier than their shift due to EFTA00060620

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Ww Ww Ops Lieutenant from or their relief, what count, is you kind of could onsibility you not only notified it up the the chain and nothing happens. When should - EFTA00060621

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ow oO wo wo No wi o what should have happened next with regard to the cellmate? When should have the next time this thing have been brought back up? The 4:00 ee : Whenever - whoever was - the first person that found out that || was not coming back, that person should have passed it down to everybody again. ee : And that would have been, you believe somebody like || or one of those? a : It could have been ia. It could have been R&D that the first person pretty much, like, “Oh, you know, Reyes is not coming back.” “Okay.” Let’s say R&D found out first, then they should have called the Captain or even they should have just notified the Lieutenant. If Reyes found out -. ee : So R&D would actually go straight to the Captain? a : Or most likely the Lieutenant first, then, “Okay, I did my part, that’s pretty much - I did my part, I told the o Lieutenant,” that’s, the rest is on - it’s on them because I did my part in notifying EFTA00060622

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ow oO wo wo No uw BR somebody. ee : Now, if we’re told that R&D usually just goes direct to the SHU, does that sound right to you or do they usually go first to like the Ops or Activity and then somebody else -. a : Like inform? ee : Yeah, so if they know, “Hey, Reyes isn’t - we now know he didn’t come back, he was released.” R&D is the first person to get that word. What is their typical procedure? Do they contact both the SHU and the Lieutenant or do they contact one or the other? | ti‘(‘asi‘ésl Depending who is working. Sometimes they’1l tell both of them, sometimes they’11 call SHU, sometimes they’1ll just call the Lieutenant, the Lieutenant calls SHU and says, “Hey, this guy is not coming back.” Or if they call SHU, then SHU would fix it on the computer or SHU would call Control, say, “Can you take || off the count?” ee : And would the person that got contacted in R&D, you said everybody knew, would the person in R&D know that || was EFTA00060623

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Ww fe] ie] ts] rt 1] bo A 0 i) ra be =] 1] rt D form? How would we find out who worki - what d was approxima 10 from? You How would we find out -- re was one that -. who was working -- How — EFTA00060624

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Ww wo this point who was working in R&D from 2:00 to have to get with of like who work i] dn’t oO schedule? Do they it somewhere? - because, this is our o back ror ars, so schedule and y Ee : That’s why I would think that also R&D would have something similar. a : But with them -- EFTA00060625

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Ww Ww Uh-huh. we could like EFTA00060626

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Ww Ww fee} said, you kr “a “All right, G. ll right, Uh-huh. All right. I No, no, but I’ And can’t recall wit don’t m aski th I’m in SHU, QJ is ¢ “Mako cur e, Make si the you hs one think ng, I 956 EFTA00060627

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wo 256 Yeah lying if they - EFTA00060628

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, we know he went but we didn’t know that 2 he was not coming back,” tt holds 3 weight? co Only if it was confirmed oming back. 4 not be - that Reyes 5 to Eps in until it’s 6 isn’t 9 “ 20 say : 21 He’s -. into that cell. a : So until we know for a EFTA00060629

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Ww t coming ba him not coming out,” then, “Shit, building at 1 until 8 o : And was 1T he was not ssumed he’s s still but, H You Get him a bunkie bec a chance this guy could EFTA00060630

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Ww Hh w t os 3 b- ou ct t iy 7 did you t say, t coming him a bunk is) I didn’t tell 0 I didn’t think you 21 ae : And you said that? You 22 believe you said the same thing to both | Nh EFTA00060631

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Ww probably, believing, | doing his rounds at about 11:30? Would have that been when you told him or do yu belie called? Ee : Doing his rounds? And do remember speaking with | that day? a : ma. I remember him being there and just told him, I always talk to him. a : Would it be like talking to him in the SHU? Ee : But they both would do y both would have walke actually required to do it or just o a : No, they’re both required EFTA00060632

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co Ww cing at that Would had to when he did a round in the Can you get me that Lieut So both the Activities and are both required to do a sorry. all? You can ask, but I don’t remember him ally not. EFTA00060633

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Ww Ww fee} Unl actually, both Activiti 12] ct c ) t om D RK fh p. = BK 7] b +t t 3 ®) @ 7) 7) actually both and you and Operations EFTA00060634

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wo WwW wo 23 suggest - when they sign this, does it show Q where it was signed from? Ee : No? Just they can change a : Well, wherever you logged it from, that, I don’t even know how it shows ot up somewhere else. they supposed to actually log it from the actual unit themselves? a : Well, now, if as long as you do it one, you could log in from downstairs, let’s say the Lieutenant’s office and logged in a unit. ee : But are you supposed - like if someone visits the SHU, aren’t they y log the round from the | tsti‘i‘z@w Yes, log it in the computer MS: 22h, yeah, yeah, that’s - okay. Did I get - so we said the said, told at least | and you remember that specifically. You believe cellmate - so oO No fo) rw) EFTA00060635

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo wasn’t coming back, that’s when it really © Be we just when it was verified or how it was that verification? : I think through the Marshals tell th re supposed to mé Are they said it depends on who is in R Ee : All right. And do we EFTA00060636

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10 11 12 13 17 18 19 know who at - let me see that August 9th one - who in Control - would Control always be in the loop with that? ee : Not really because there’s times that R&D would call SHU and if there’s somebody in SHU that has enough knowledge to just key him back in, they’1l key them back in, or R&D would key them back in. So now, you don’t need to speak to R&D, I mean, you don’t need to speak to Control because the inmate is walking back up to SHU and R&D already keyed him back into the building. Ee : All right. And then, what is the - what about like when Noel and Thomas are working on their morning shift, should they have recognized that Reyes wasn’t there? a : Definitely by that time they - by 10 o'clock, it’s way after, they should have known that he’s not coming back. ee : But I just mean the start of a new shift now. Now midnight starts a new shift, we’re now on morning watch. Should they have recognized, “Hey, Epstein is by himself.” No oO ul EFTA00060637

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Ne] WwW 5 HS: )S Right on their first round 6 on morning watch. during round they he was by himself. That’s a little light 2 should WwW this notification?” known Q 20 22 both Thomas and Noel knew that Epstein was cellmate? known, EFTA00060638

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Ww Ww Ee : And how should have they known? a : Due to the little paper I had there and -. else had anot Now, paper WaS -. No, from what yc told me 7) EFTA00060639

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s) WwW wo ult ea 30, I him in - I thi think and th the nk h i) foll knows that. iow SHU? he got into li rh 12) K EFTA00060640

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wo Ne] WwW fee} wo was : Sik it b of smoking, I think. No. o mo caus Contraband? remember. ah, contraba o You got something else? only other now we got the SHU, | and we got | and then we also have conducting rounds as they should have, would time known Epstein was by needed a cellmate? Should if they’ re conducting rounds But if no one is actually ldn’t notice that? EFTA00060641

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was empty, but, Ne] wo 0 n 3 | | o oO 7 in his legal visit.” “Oh, okay. U ts uel if) cr 0) B fs] 0 is ct o 3 a] 3 ct 103) Oo Fh Fh Bb ie] Oo Bb 03) bh c wn o t o 3 Lieutenant, the Lieu 3 you 0 you 1 got to the out count. 2 a : All right. And when you 3 were there, do you recall th 4 and the Ops Lieutenant were actually conducting 6 a: know BB for a fact n FS he always just 8 walked around to see what was going on. 9 Ee : Who would? 21 ee : So he wouldn’t actually nd th @ fF : No, he would walk to see what was going on be EFTA00060642

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271 Ww 5 walking, but I didn’t see him that day. know for a fact co 6 Lieutenant, I still - I walk around ever 8 1t en you were the SHU 9 coming in 20 21 round EFTA00060643

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1 MENS: ves. and that actually 7. no 7) or conducting rounds of the tier 3 doing rounds with your -. 5 Unit, correct. 7 guess what I’m saying is, some people are 8 saying, “No, it’s, I’m doing a round with my 9 I’m not doing a round inmates, it’ O the s members doing the rounds on 11 I’m doing a round with my staff.” 2 a : But, again, that bottom -- 4 Ee : -- little square says, Lieutenant,” w WwW 5 “Operatic even if don’t know anything about it, if you read it, “Operations Lieutenant.” ME: ing 2 round of the wo wu Q ct c i) p. 5 i ct it] “ a : Or does it also mean that other rounds It could be that, but Nh WwW nN in] o QO fu ai Qa an oO o) un you got to sign it and go down the EFTA00060644

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Ne] ying under did your round. n is iad @ I’m sure we could WwW your brain all day lc 5 time, so, are 21 ee : Now, do you think EFTA00060645

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1 had a cellmate, maybe less likely that he would 2 have with a cellmate, but also, a cellmate 3 could go to the law library, you know. Thirty 4 minutes is a long time, 40 minutes is a long 5 time, so. believe it’s th i) cellmate thing that would have 8 actually helped keep him alive. GS: think it would hav 0 helped a little bit. 11 HE : Bight. 2 a : If he wanted to do it, he 3 was going to do it. 4 HE: = b-huh. $ And you think 5 everybody from the point that you left on plays wo 16 a large responsibility in the fact that he wasn’t assigned a new cellmate, especially 8 since you specifically told people, “Make sure \o 7 o re] Oo ct it) w bunkie if Reyes doesn’t come back.” 20 HR: )=t smean, I don’t blame 21 anybody. I think everybody should maybe passed 22 the information a little more. Maybe it got 23 lost in miscommunication. 24 © 811 right. 25 a : No, that’s it. EFTA00060646

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Ww Ww But you don’ you told will er oath, under nd it’s just t believe actually penalty of unfortunate You good? 776 EFTA00060647

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wo What know, time is we gave you the mo All right. July 14, 2021. EFTA00060648

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oO rtify that the ate transcript of the EFTA00060649

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