DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, Phone: (818) 431-5 EFTA00059671

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APPEARANC OR GENERAL OFFICE OF EFTA00059672

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo recorder is on. It and the time is 5:57 York Field Office and these are my credentials. you st conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice O General inv Today is June 15th and the time is 5:58 p.m. The interview is being conducted at 6 West 23rd Street, Deer Park, New York. Also fu Q wu P- =] my credentials. oO o Wo EFTA00059673

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Lieuten wo 1 an official DOJ investi 2 inmate Jeffery Epstein 3 surrounding that and 5 Will u agree to a 6 the DOJ OIG? fee} wo ee Requested t a Voluntary B you’ re 4 voluntarily provide ans\ ice TO review Department of A D tated before, this is gation into the fu nd the timing being asked to questions. interview with it also. Justice, Office of o Provide Information on EFTA00059674

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceeding or both.” Now the waiver for you. “I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” Do you understand that? | vb-huh. a : Do you wish to proceed with the interview? a : Yeah. a : Please review the document and once you review the document, please sign EFTA00059675

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6 Nh co wu S on oO oO a fe) = 3 0 1 e signature of 2 s ecial Thank the for signi 5 ma for dating it 6 at 6:02 p.m. gning my name and signature of witness and printing my name, name nothing but the truth during this interview? EFTA00059676

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2 lea 3 que I’ll try to rephrase it for What is your current home addr 8 a : Your date of birth? 0 a : And what is your social 1 number? 3 you 21 Lieutenant at New York, New York. I the gentl EFTA00059677

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n ) + n 5) t 3 a : I have a bachelors of sci y- What did 4 : I was in the 5 worked in a law firm. 7 What branch of the military? 0 22 or something like 24 title when you -. EFTA00059678

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wo es : And did y ma what was a : Did you graduate from BOP EFTA00059679

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Ly wo cr i] K ny] an = w t i o D wu = bh what was the next wu Ph ct oO H promotion EFTA00059680

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Ww co Ww GS-11 Lieutenant? I th MCC on August 93th fu temp Lieutenant in 2016. ink ‘17, I got promoted leading up to going to read the 11 EFTA00059681

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] from that interview. It is an FBI report so I can’t physically hand it to you but because the OIG was there, it’s our information to ask, that’s why I'll be able to read it to you. Just, as I’m reading it, just let me know if s anything that’s inaccurate and then I’1l probably stop along the way to just kind of ask for a little bit more collaborations. It says, “Prior to employment with the Bureau ons, | | w tg ri as] of it) a Paralegal at Skadden Law wu o Firm.” a : Skadden. GI: «9 Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N. HN: h-huh. ee : “He worked litigation, pro bono, mergers and acquisitions for ” approximately 10 years. And was that approximately from 1998 to 2008? a : Approximately. Ee: kay. “I has also been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20 years. i was employed as a Corrections Officer with the BOP in fF at the Metropolitan Detention Center herein after 3) is that correct? EFTA00059682

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were with the MDC not yi transitio rrection C EFTA00059683

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ial Housing Unit, or Ne] ording 7 and responsibilities were as follows.” 8 prior us going on. 9 up until this inciden QO rotat Well, I was taken out becaus 0) H was out on an injury. how 14 EFTA00059684

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo was on the desk switch. I review or sc 3 0) rt p- to] te] a p- tan 1) program that, after program review, tt for all - at least Lieutenant and a little cording to follows. n and responsibilities are a Control max wing, 10 EFTA00059685

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16 9 3 ce into thos 0) control ure y have coming.” What WwW 5 get toilet 6 write on, they get it. 9 20 - 22 a : -- that - I ensure that they -. | ' K oO 7) EFTA00059686

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Ww 4 thing t suming what onsibiliti co 5 were doin 6 doing 24 Lieut EFTA00059687

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Ww mething like 5 ee : And would it typically be =ning watch or oO od EFTA00059688

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b ive} 1 forbidding, Ww Li 5 familiar with duties and 6 responsibilities, corre co 2 trair in the SHU program for BOP employees. 3 Now, 5 cipated 6 great. And do you individuals that were working in their quarterly 20 that training 21 Some have EFTA00059689

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) ] y didn’t, you know, we went ar No and we showed them, you know, WwW anybo WwW 5 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the you know, hands on. : Now, are you the person the training at the EFTA00059690

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Ww Ww 1 who didn’t attend that if I did it. “" y to be printed on 21 EFTA00059691

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backwards. Ne] WwW uw H =] ct E 4 om rt i int i) 6 printed out like on Sunday morning watch. 9 The week -- 0 1 start because 2 that morning is breakfast. So it’s breakfast, WwW and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go, 4 breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D. first at 6 5 So, breakfast i wn w , whatever time the count cleared is 7 breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner. 9 Sundays, 20 works on Sundays or is it -- EFTA00059692

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Ww co Ww YS supposed to be two up there is working Hopefully, who got out? - on a Sunday. you who got EFTA00059693

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24 : And about when did he « No rr re) WwW 5 Es: «8 ight. But in do you remember if there was an OIC? 7 a : I don’t remember. 5 3 0 3 the s? Just when we of these your memo Ana so, 3 0 21 9th and the other one is ‘re familiar with EFTA00059694

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No oo wo co wo ine] uw N wi to like if -- ee : -- the SHU is towards the bottom and then who was on - It’ll show you the Ops, you know, the Ops Lieutenant and the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth. “Every SHU inmate has an associated 292 form as long as they are in the SHU population.” HE: vb-huh. ee : “Once they rotate to another population, the form is invalid and no longer exists. Now, what does that mean? Do they destroy the form a : No. So what happens is, okay, the way the program operates is, once you come out of the SHU program, like say for instance, if you key to suicide wat your original form, or whatever form, is, if it didn’t get printed, if there’s a form there, but that stops, the time stops. new form for every hous ng unit you go into is EFTA00059695

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ial Housing Unit, it’s oO | | fe) I @ = w m7 Q ra 2 D ry ct ie] J Oo ) 5 oF I 2 a : On suicide watch, there’s ere’s - it 4 where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did the 5 >, you know, get a shower? Like that. 6 21 a : Is not in the program. cannot -. continue. continue, yeah. EFTA00059696

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N N Nh Nh wo wo i) WwW it remains -- | sR | tti‘ésSS -- in their file. : If it gets printed. a: But, like, off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could Y - once they go back and see if the individual was there. But once they come off the program, I cannot create a document for you. are the a : It’s a program, so I don’t - a the SHU program, in the roster, if) 7] and BOPWare talk to each other. son i Right? And so what happens is if a per fo i keyed into SHU, there’s a little box you have to press. HS: «stp BOPWare, and it’s timestamped. So, once that person is there, it AD order, administrative detention Once that administrative detention , the Lieutenant writes in there n Special EFTA00059697

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ow oO ~—] wo 10 12 13 14 Housing -- : a : -- has to be a reason. If that form is not filled out, the Captain gets an email from the region saying there’s a blank AD order in here, right? So I used to go in there and look every morning to see if somebody, whoever got placed in Special Housing to see what the charges was or if that form was filled out. a: If that form wasn’t filled out, I look at the Lieutenant’s log or I call the Lieutenant, whoever, you know, “Why did this inmate get locked up?” Normally when I do my rounds, I ask the inmates, “Why are you up here?” Some of them lie and they, “I don’t know why I’m up here,” whatever. But then I find out why they up there, then I know why. It could be SIS investigation, it could be because of a fight. a : It could be multiple reasons why the AD order wasn’t created. However, we try to create and do the AD order to place the 28 EFTA00059698

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4 is -- ’ -- once it n on Ir here and once this 292 is 0) rt sd, even if it’s not printed out, is it wo maintained in the sy K o n 11 | tti‘iai‘éwl And is it ever deleted? WwW when this 8 - you’ve gota wo i] 0] ae B- 7) ct i] a] number, you could go back, but know how long the p could go back 21 and forth to pull a 292. can go EFTA00059699

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Ww co Ww housing unit, what is done fu - unit team and the different housing unit, it goes to the unit. it tells you on EFTA00059700

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ioe) a Ne] WwW co Ly = or) c fu b = he n > s) = i= ue] Hi if] rt za @ KR it] | 3 they there 4 the 5 after the 6 before 7 that. when shift changes 21 participate in the EFTA00059701

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N N Nh Nh wo wo ho WwW uw Ww No staff are doing what they’re supposed to be doing -- HE: vb-huh. ee : -- with those forms? Okay. ™ advised that accountability of is important. He never caught anyone intentionally not doing their job. | | also reviews round forms and searches for red flags. se could be missing tera. If caught, | | approaches the individual and requests an signatures, etc @ explanation.” So have you ever caught someone then not doing rounds or -- HN: h-huh. working on that day - on August 9th or 10th that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have to discuss this matter with any of those individuals? ee : There’s no one in there that you can - that were working on either day? a : Not that I know of, no. ee : Okay. Can you think of jone that you did ever have to deal with for EFTA00059702

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No WwW WwW not conducting rounds or count fou know, we would ask, down range, we out after, ee : But can you think of u actually had to - that you caught not doing it? Or I should c it) n + ey wu at work was on August 8th. Who was the last person you caught not conducting a : I don’t remember. ay. That’s A bh bh =] ) | ti‘ aié‘ésll But you don’t believe it was any of the people that were working? Lieutenant when Epstein wasn’t originally in the ” Epstein was in 10 South Lower.” ive) Wo EFTA00059703

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Ne] WwW co Ww no on 10 just said that 10 that were going if South but is the fir st. Ther A What’s 10 high-profile.” South 1 right? G Tier South South 10 § ho was then and Lower is was lds a origi was I tho for full. " Lower? maximum nally ught people ioe) EFTA00059704

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ioe) uw put disrup Ne] 9 that’s where 0 t individual will go. 1 sed if that 2 e or anything like how 1 8 a: I don’t know. don’t know? he - I guess, EFTA00059705

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Ww wo much the Same way pulation. I don’t when he i) in up EFTA00059706

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ioe) Tier, if that’s Ne] come from Ww wu S on ea ra 5 : Sure. - so, did 6 10 South, 10 South Lower and 8 yes. is) And is not on - only unit that’s 10 § is in the your understanding alw e in that unit. EFTA00059707

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wo ee : Whether lower or just You just G Tier, the 10 the SHU count. 1 was the whole It should be - you pull up you just flipp EFTA00059708

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ive) ve] 0 a : Yeah. That was actually when it was created. 5 : So what was saying, 6 isn’t the 75 count the South is not fe) H ct 03) 3 + | bh 20 parate unit. s what we were EFTA00059709

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hat ZA - the 10 Ww | | b w 4 South Lower is incorporated with whole of 5 the regular SHU. 7 Ee : And ZB is just 10 South. “ wo Right. Epstein was 0 assigned to cell 201 in the SHU. During their first -” - okay, is that correct? I don’t know. 4 encounter, Epstein asked a. ‘Am I going to No H Q D A i) WwW 6 frequenting the attorney conference area for long periods of time.” Is it true that at fee} wu almost - while he was assigned to the SHU was 9 just about every day he was in the - he would 20 go to the attorn rea? they wanted to in with a bunkie. EFTA00059710

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ow oO oo wo wo recall however, identify an inmate. Ultimately, to house Epstein with Tartaglione. asked for his input and followed Management orders. There was an 7/23/2019 between the two but it it exactly who requested this ac 41 tion, he remembers they were trying to they decided | | wasn’t Executive nstant on didn’t occur the next packet which includes memos and photos resulting from the incident.” weren’t there, happened or had -. a : I’m a Lieutenant, know. anything about him either trying to suicide or his cell mate attempting him? I don’t recall. ee : So what is it recall from it? a : I just know I - you read in this day chart that himself and I looked at the 583, I So al so though you were you familiar with what you hear commit to kill that you know, you he tried to hang looked at EFTA00059711

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und Ww : -- was that he And his co 0 1 whatever, did what she had to do. He was 2 on suicide watch the next day and, you know, And what -. 5 know, I don’t recall 6 it’s - I - you read it 8 do you know what happened with his cell mate? Did he remain in 0 the SHU? the SHU EFTA00059712

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wo wo Wo required to cellmates when they’re in the SHU? a: Yes. However, there’s exceptions because some of them you can’t house them with nobody. ee : And is that because they would get harmed if they were housed with someone? that part of what 10 South Lower is for or is that - it’s just regular SHU, the inmates know? a : Just like some have on their ” door, “Housing rec alone,” because they could have multiple steps. Some of them, you know, they could be fear for their life. You always, you know, you have that, but we try to bunk up everybody. a : All right, so aside from these special exceptions, inmates are supposed to have -. a : Yeah, we tr} up. Yeah. ee: Now is that policy or just a decision that was made? to bunk everybody EFTA00059713

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 a : No, that’s something that, you know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did that, because once you knew individuals receive - you can’t - policy states that you’re not supposed to have an AD, Administrative Detention person and a person that’s under disciplinary segregation together, housed together. It’s supposed to be separate. a : That’s the policy that they - that’s 5270, you know, point whatever the new number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program statement. When Psychology says that this person tried to harm themselves, we make sure that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know, they have a companion or somebody in there that they could talk to so that, you know, they don’t feel despondent, you know. SHU is a place, you know, if you don’t check on these inmates, you know, they’re going to remind you. a : So, you know, you’ve got to make rounds, you’ve got to check on - be checking on these inmates. You’ve got to be seeing what they’re doing, you know. It’s a EFTA00059714

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WwW with I’m not inmates that aren’t have a cell and re coming back from don’t believe that’s going to hurt myself. a EFTA00059715

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hurt m goin 6 a : I don’t remember him saying co EFTA00059716

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Ne] WwW co to attorney had interact I that he wouldn’t be housed with another inmate? a : I don’t think that. ee : Did he want to get of the SHU? go? EFTA00059717

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Ne] WwW WwW oo ee : He said he wanted to go he - wh came back. And then that -- cell mate r ie] i] commendations but they were still deciding on an individual when | | left the institution that n EFTA00059718

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=] ny] ~ oO KK fs) Ne] WwW I 0 2 unit team. 4 to go sor s something totally dif wo EFTA00059719

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Ww co Ww warden, the ” mate. little bit And then what did SHU? All right, Did you provi now, about how did tt can wi oO EFTA00059720

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Ww Ww 51 EFTA00059721

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No WwW Ww up around, “This individual postir bunkie.” you You said there were the door, on the was - I was a —- or what door was y- And do you know - if that - did that remain up until you EFTA00059722

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wo wo wi Wo watch. Then it was taken off. He was placed with Reyes, and was in the cell, so I don’t recall - after I left that day, I don’t know what, you know - everything was in place. ee : Yeah, no, what I’m saying prior to leaving, I’m wondering if the if) people that worked in the SHU, because obviously as you know Reyes left on the 9th and you weren’t there. HE: h-hh. | tti‘iai‘éwl But did the people that were in there - I want to know if the people who were in the SHU -. a : My crew, whoever worked - we had a skinless crew. You could see who worked a: Right? You can see who worked evening watch. Okay? The people that were there August 9th, I can’t, ou know, vouch for. Okay? But everybody knew that was part of the SHU crew -- a : -- and not everybody on this EFTA00059723

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1 was, you know, is - these is fill ins. 2 It’s not their 2) was SHU 3. || knew, he t. || knew. wo the number one. who then on that Ne] WwW you don’t know if they know. I don’t know. I mean, 5 the and t crew, kind of like the fee} you tell your wo though? EFTA00059724

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wo WwW wo WwW wi uw ke - the day that he was bunkie, I spoke to a . a: | took care of it from there. All I know, when I came in, I checked, he had a bunkie, that was it. ee : And I understand this. a : And so, I cannot explain for another shift. I cannot explain - only could tell what ia did. I don’t know what anybody else did after I left. I don’t know. I cannot HS: «Bight. So like you were saying, he was housed with a bunkie on July 30th. What we’re asking is that between July 30th and between August 9th, the days that you were there, were you conversing with these people to remind them that he was required to EFTA00059725

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oO ies) wo co ine) Oo wo ine] wi i=) ee : Right. But isn’t it true that the - at the MCC, inmates are constantly coming in and out? It’s more of a jail than a prison? a : Yes. But one thing don’t have nothing to do with - if we’re working every day together, I don’t - why am I keep telling you the same thing every day? I don’t have to tell you your job to what you’re supposed to do every day. I’ve got to keep reminding you to feed? I have a billion other things to do. a : So what you’re saying to me, I cannot answer that because I don’t know. ee : So, what we’re asking is did you have conversations with anyone on those other days about the reminder that Epstein is required to have a cell mate? a : I had a conversation with the crew and I don’t keep repeating myself. He has a bunkie. Every day I come in, I check, he’s got a bunkie. What is there to talk about? If it’s way down -. ee: What we’re asking is -. a : I don’t know - I don’t under-. EFTA00059726

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2 had a conversation with the one man who was the Ww Oo mh al bh a @ K bh 3 a fu KR Q o 7 iy + b 3 asking you is, did 4 you have a conv anyone else aside 5 from him? Between July 30th and August 9th, conversations -- 6 did you have HK o Q i b be wo H on Oo ct ot) N 2 o ry oO 5 ct K o Q i hb be w he U 1° = wu fs] c on the door. Was sticky only on the door on July 30th or did 6 it remain on the door from July 30th to August fee} a: It remained up there, it was on © ct J oO o i] if] a 20 : ay. 21 a : A big sign that said, “Epstein 22 is supposed to have a bunkie,” on the desk, on the officer’s station. ee : And that stayed on th i) KH oO EFTA00059727

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wi oo all I know, when I left, everything was in Ne] WwW I’m not there right now. Things could : I don’t know. I is asking 7 Ee : Where were you sitting th A 1 ] cié i) re o w un @ i 8 when you were in the SHU? Is p 3 0 I sit in like on next to 10 Ne] y- So are you not with the correctional officers? WwW 5 ee : All right. And how -. 6 WN: Xs come down, I make rounds. 8 so you know that on July 30th ther rt if) c 5 @ b Hh I o a ct be o wo tO is) is) ct o ie] i] 3 wo wu < fa o 4 t fu rt iy ie] 75) rt oO B 5 kK @ ri PB K ri] jon fw ine] t K o 77) you don’t know if that that after he was EFTA00059728

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Ww fee} wrl kie. It was som Mm: = recall. That’s fin That that is) ething th on’t r The re when I was up wa was something was 2in door my question. your don’t EFTA00059729

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wo EFTA00059730

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WwW know it was on the desk and it was on rt @ know -- bulletin, | tti‘ésSS Got a bulletin board? a : On, like on the wall, like id, you know, Yeah, I understand that it was just me up there. I’m quite sure you all loo! Sometimes it was jus - I’m just trying to understand. daily conv EFTA00059731

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No Ne] WwW u know, 4 a bunkie. 6 that’s working the - should everyone that’s working in the should they know that? 0 working in the known that - if Epstein’s cell mate was removed, he should be housed with Ww K o 7) 7 : But, how 8 he’s been removed. We don’t know. coming o ver, you don’t know if 22 a : He should have had a bunkie. ee : And should have the SHU, people that were EFTA00059732

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N WwW wo WwW fee} wo ll the t iu) should there should have saying that they didn’t. that’s were working authority to bunkie? They knew, Lieutenant,” a bunkie.” “We need to tell whoever lieutenant, is their them know that’s how it happened and the people that were I’m not f. 5 Q H Ph EFTA00059733

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Ne] WwW 4 a : You've got to -. in the any kind of warnings need to ould 24 call the Li such and such,” yeah. EFTA00059734

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oO uw were they - but 2 because I’m assuming as know, and I don’t 3 think we discus d t - oh, we did. inmat that were with Epstein were vetted 5 high, you know -- 6 a: The higher-ur -- the Warden, the Ne] WwW wo 4 a w t if] = 7 ay t 3 a} i} bP mH po @ s i vi) Q 1!) or wu EFTA00059735

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N WwW wo WwW wo 24 bunkie -- a : -- or he would have been - uld have been watc ing him, that’s me, but I’m different, you know. I do, I’m a forward thinker, so like I said, I wasn’t there. forward nd being a inker though, and re I was a : But everybody knows you come from suicide watch - if that’s the question A from suicide watch, a bunkie. Eee : And does that last for a certain amount of time? So for instance, he came from suicide watch on July 30th. HN: h-hh. a : Only up until you leave EFTA00059736

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Ww 2 ee : So everybody knew that -- a 6 a : Everybody should have known, 7 yeah. o Because 20 me from suicide watch, . not only did email, like y EFTA00059737

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wo Ww wo he door, you know Uh-hu -hand, , y ou wo would yc uldn’t that from me come from he was walking suicid it) EFTA00059738

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io Ne] WwW uicide watch, That was from when actually later, now on this next paragraph. m assuming this is July 30th EFTA00059739

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1 he had a bunkie. Inmates receive bunkies when 2 they come off suicide watch. It’s common 3 practice in BOP. This is clearly communicated 4 in suicide watch training. It’s posted throughout the area and it’s also institutional ow oO knowledge.” 7 a : Correct. ee: Okay. So everybody should have known. 10 a : Yes. | tti‘iai‘éwl “Epstein had a bunkie on 2 8/8/2019. [RM is unaware of anything other oo wo 3 than that because he wasn’t working. Reyes was 4 Epstein’s bunkie when | | left work. Epstein 5 was down in an attorney conference as well. 16 | | communicated the message regarding a 17 bunkie to | ti‘(iéz‘w He didn’t speak to anyone 8 else about it because he expected | to wo disseminate it to his subordinates. There were 20 no other emails or communications regarding the 21 matter. The message was spread by word of 22 mouth.” Aside from what you said, there was 23 actually a Post It note on | -. 24 a : Yeah, but that’s - the way like after, on the 8th, ine] uw you’ re reading that, EFTA00059740

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Ww co WwW that he was to subordina think that -- | tti‘iai‘éwl -- and I didn’t write bunkie. a] we didn’t write That’s why we’re EFTA00059741

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1 SI we 2 got “There regarding the is, didn’t send out an email WwW 4 about on No, I’m talking t prior g about EFTA00059742

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Ww wo wo was -- after 8 @ was talking All right. how givin fter - emails, communic communications out leading So what -- it’s g EFTA00059743

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Ne] WwW it at all,” from July 30th to WM: After I left on the 8th, he had wu w a. was it the day tt from suicide watch? a : And that would be July 30th, a : -- according to the data. EFTA00059744

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N tg wv n rt rt i) i] rt oF wu ct i) WwW wo 7) WwW wo right, you dual conve anyone or August 8th, emails from July out the read their oO 3 fu a b Uy) 3 fi b b i) , emails it’s how not out, if you don’t have computer? A to their lot of people don’t mputers. I left my PIV card at home. Oh, can I get an override?” You have some Lieutenants that can’t even give So I don’t know. hology sent out EFTA00059745

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N WwW 2) te} 9 0 a : Yeah, from WwW sure that t my time, sure, you know, that he had 8 vetted whoever they ve what wo it was know, “The Warden, 21 said, ar ot 7) he had a bunkie. email out. the did the Cap- what a or whatever, to make bunkie and when fu t and they id, to be, that’s when He “I got it.” EFTA00059746

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Ww co Who knew that he had EFTA00059747

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Ne] WwW WwW I don’t know. a bunkie. That’s what (Indiscernible down. It was and -. e email wasn’t s out EFTA00059748

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2) wo Ne] WwW fee} wo - I think re on now towards the bottom. a : Uh-huh. So it wasn’t j to super a : So, so hold on. What I’m plain to you i people knew that he was supposed to >», again, the reason why we’re asking you the question, we understand now that this - we this email and we know ~ io EFTA00059749

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Ww Ww said basically conversations did about it? you 5 tein is supposed to cifically that ind then, when I’m work, that do he co EFTA00059750

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co rar 1 a : Because I told them. everybody N WwW : And it was posted. 4 ee : Perfect. And this 5 what we’re saying, you had verbal 6 ions with “Hey, man, oO K o 7) , but not on those two day: wo I wasn’t there. 0 a : Yeah, you didn’t have them on that day but the people that were 7) 2 working re worked in the SHU prior to t WwW aay. worked with me, he had to have a bunk this, you weren’t there, need to know, these its) ue) o o rs) be o an =] Oo That’s why we’re talking about 21 a : I don’t - if they worked with me, with whoev , I don’t remember who - every day it changes who - daily it changes. Nh EFTA00059751

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oo wo co wo ine] uw working and I work. Okay? On the 8th, I didn’t work overtime. I went home. It was my birthda I went home. I wasn’t supposed to be there. I was supposed to be on vacation and then I had military leave that weekend. I got injured. So I don’t know what you all are trying to look for. I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t know. like that - so, here’s the thing. You spoke to anyone who was on the shift. What’s your a : So, what about any SHU employees that comes on shift after you leave, how would they have known? ME: | t- would tell them, “Hey, yo, he need a bunkie, 3 would know because I Epstein would need a bunkie.” And they -. And it’s written. How would it -. We pass down - you pass down information. EFTA00059752

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co Wo 1 next paragraph is, ‘Ey advised that 2 Correctional Officer Thomas and Correctio on suicide watch 6 it would have been reported to the shift supervisor.” Is that correct? 8 a : It should have been reported to wo ct :) oO 7] 7 B- Hh t | 0 HE: 80 both Noel and Thomas, both, they should have that Epstein was Ne] WwW And do you recall 5 - and we’ll just talk about t two, Cc or do you know how they would ha It would have been on the wo 21 HS: te would -. 2 a : And they would ha 23 HS: tt would -. 24 ee : -- been sitting 25 computer? EFTA00059753

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1 a : At that computer, it would have Ne] WwW the SHU, 5 shift that they 6 think it’s like p.m. to 6:00 6 a.m. 3 0 been 1 sitting - it said 2 Epstein was required to WwW Thank you. J 5 a an inmate left WAB.” What’s With ongings or with - yeah, something to ct his correct EFTA00059754

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No WwW No WwW wo him of the vacancy. So, is that meaning that would have you - you would supervisor. A supervisor has rights to the u We know who is leaving and who is not. HE: «id you know that Reyes was leaving? fi) roster. t WN:_—«s ts that normally cl you the night before or -. a : The court list is given night before. a : What time would it normally ared with the a : After 4:00. a : And he wasn’t on the list. a : I didn’t see a court list. ee : Should have they known that he was going? | : Huh? fos) 1) EFTA00059755

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1 ME: hink, wasn’t it the 2 judge that decided as posed to him -. 3 don’t know. n't t wasn’t t know building. But, court and not come back. 0 that Corrections Thomas didn’t recei the training.” So Thomas didn’t receive, I’m No mM] rt] a c 3 I 5 .Q rt a 0) Q co 7] K ct i) Kh bo kK | He works in ano 4 ee : So the quarterly WwW ther department. 6 WN: Xe2h, he works in another department. 8 ee : But do you still believe he would have known that he was required to wo t a wu x wu 21 a : I mean, he worked - I mean, 22 he’s got more time than me in the Bureau. Right. you know, but he worked in you know. I can’t account EFTA00059756

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for what they should or should not have done - I don’t know. ee : Yeah. But do you believe that as a correctional officer as well as being that the fact that that’s the (Indiscernible *01:07:16) -- a: I‘1l put it to you this way. If I’m on or in Special Housing, I’m making rounds, I’m checking, I’m looking in every cell, I’m making sure that everything is up to nut. If I see something wrong, I’m going to say something, I’m going to correct it. Okay? That’s me. I was an OIC before I was a SHU Lieutenant. Okay? I was an officer first, so - and I was a damn good one and I was a damn good Lieutenant as well. So, I’m different than - well, I take the job serious. Like I said, my integrity is on the line at the end of the day. Okay? I know how this operates. I know how the Bureau operates. And that’s why the attorney said what he said. From the top down, we’re going to put everybody on notice and I understand this is an investigation, but I was not there. I can’t account for on Monday morning quarterback, what anybody else does. 87 EFTA00059757

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No WwW wo WwW wo 24 we're just asking you about can speak on behalf what I did. to it. a : -- when I was there. a : He was alive when I left. | tti‘iai‘éwl But being that you’re the we wanted to what directio given directio It was written, it was passed down to I got the word. When I got the it was passed down and subsequently after passed down to everybody that d. Not email, but mouth to mouth. Great. 7? And it was written. can post this now, people look at it and still do whatever they co o EFTA00059758

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wrote it, do you know? one ee : And did he do it for his 2 wo wo it was d in the SHU al Ho EFTA00059759

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1 hen the SHU supp one Lieutenant per shift that ed to watch a 9 a round? 0 1 So, at - so 2 day watch. Is it WwW wu hb 3) ie) } b- a oO C 5 you know, morning watch 4 and the night watch? 5 a : This is what happens. In SHU, 6 right, in erations Lieutenant is cial Housing and make a round. 9 ee : Even during day watch. EFTA00059760

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oo wo co wo ine] uw because if - it depends on who is in SHU. Like, I was the SHU Lieutenant, sometimes Ops Lieutenants didn’t come upstairs because I was Lieutenant will come upstairs. So I was assigned for day watch because I was there, there SHU Lieutenant. All right? That’s what’s written, right? MES: anc chat’ a : And that’s - well, that’s what’s written. Okay? Policy comes and goes. The Captain or Warden can write - this can be policy right now becau they sent this out, No, that’s okay. was posted that he had to have a bunkie. Okay Like I each Lieutenant is supposed to go to Special Housing. This - what, for midnight count, 3 o’clock count, 5 o’clock count, right, and the 4 o’clock count, each EFTA00059761

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Ne] WwW co = wu H wu Mh rt i) K > D After Epstein died. 3 a : Uh-huh. Yeah. 4 ee : What about - oh, okay, so rything we 8 a: I don’t know if they went to cial Housing or n 22 a : I’m not aware. I don’t know. there was nothing in EFTA00059762

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4 Ne] WwW wo whoever was like the - so there’s a 4:00 Hold on. of them should Day wat Housing. know, operation fo Ss EFTA00059763

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Ne] WwW WwW to li k oO conduct a count No. of the sed to go there. But actually supposed e 3 b Q i?) (Indiscernible The offic ai is] go s wha round is - you ers. by d they’ they *01:13:31) - re cr what were uir 0) Q (Indiscernible to § t I sai that roun the S to make a round, I we ed HU officers? walk the EFTA00059764

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wo wo ranges. That’s me. I can’t account for 0] verybody else. I don’t know what they’ve done. I mean, I don’t know. WN: tswasn’t there. ee : So what we’re asking it, up until August 8, 2019, were Lieutenants ever required to monitor any rounds conducted in the it, right? a : You have the documentation right there and it has three shifts on it, | ti‘ és But I’m not asking if it a : What are you asking me? Eee : Listen to the question. If - is a Lieutenant required to go to the SHU and watch the officers conduct either a round or a count? Not just visit the SHU, but are y supposed to watch them actually conduct a round or a count? wo uw EFTA00059765

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1 a : That was implemented afterwards. Ne] WwW 4 9th, that wasn’t - August 8th -. 5 WN: eid bed bunk counts. 6 ee: So Lieutenants were not 7 actually monitoring officers rounds or 8 counts. o K m w 7 No to i) ie] wu Cc a 0) o K o i 0) Q c B is 0) 9) rt fe) I know the -- 7 to 9 required to take either the 4:00 p.m. or the 0 10:00 p.m. count. 22 a SHU - you’re saying one of these Lieutenant, on August 93th, D the - you’re not there, so either the Lieutenant -. EFTA00059766

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co Ww Friday, right? Lieute from -” - and I don’t know what a to 1 All right. So ow whatev until 4 It would he would be ee : So would it be . | that d be at that 4:00 p.m. | that would be at the -. t or would it be EFTA00059767

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wo oO ee : So fF would do both p.m. and the 10:00 p.m.? the SHU on official count. the count. What I’m asking is any to be in SHU -- was afterwards wanted bed bunk put out th EFTA00059768

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Ne] WwW co OQ know, that was after up until Aug had to be present No. But Uh-hu and a round as asking is, or do you cannot answer for the fact. before this -- aid -. incident happened -- 4H 5 wu ct n | H Yeah, but what he’s in like getting ey mean just visiting t ther EFTA00059769

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S) Nh t Nh No N WwW wo 7) WwW WwW 4 How I did it. Now asking the question, you’ re how I did it. When I go to Special Housing, I gn the book walk down the Housing. I I talk to t Oo ie} wu cr ev when - talked to me. n That’ is] how you did it. - did policy that, for instance, | should have gone down during his shift and gone - did what you would do? Talk to -. two - one person could be just Everything good? You’re omebody’s interpretation -- 100 EFTA00059770

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a : That could be their round. Lieutenant could go and say, “Hey, I want to another one ’ ng to pop in.” a : I don’t - I never We’re literally asking -- EFTA00059771

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 a : I know. ee : -- you as the (Indiscernible *01:18:22) -. a : I know because you don’t know, but I’m telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, right, after, and even before Epstein, you know, they had it - it was, we had them on the ranges so the two can physically, you know, be accurate with, you know, with what you had to write, or whatever. They’re printed sheets. Right? The dates change. Some of them are handwritten. Everybody’s interpretation of a round is different. I was an officer. I don’t forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make a round. a : Does policy state what a round consists of? Can I find that in policy? a : A 30 minute round? I mean, checking on the inmates. It says in policy, inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that are in the continuous lock down situation, all right, want to quote policy, are supposed to be checked on every 30 minutes. Right? And then the special policy says in Special Housing, because they are continuously locked down and EFTA00059772

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uw oO 10 11 12 13 14 17 18 19 technically on morning watch, everybody is supposed to go check on inmates. a : That description of rounds, does that apply to a Lieutenant’s round or is that something different? a: That round applies - it doesn’t ” say, “Lieutenant,” it just says that you’re supposed to -. ee : What he’s saying is that, Lieutenant rounds, they’re doing rounds with their staff members and they can choose to go in and do the inmate rounds if they want. Isa correctional officer round is doing a round of the inmates? a : Yeah, correctional officers look at the inmates. So what you want me to do as a supervisor for eight hours is sit with the officer? HN: N0, 10, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying. If it got - see everybody - I got to go around, see everybody, make sure I don’t people - make sure people are awake because if I’m awake, you’re awake. Okay, if I’m walking around, I’m up. 103 EFTA00059773

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wo wo 104 a : We were just trying to get (Indiscernible *01:20:33). a : No, no, no. I know. I , I’m just - I know that’s what the policy J J wu. i] n rt | states. But everybody, like I said, their interpretation of the policy is different, and like myself, I’m checking on inmates. Sometimes when I go in the housing unit, I want to walk down range. But do I walk down the range of every housing uni No. | tti‘iai‘éwl Is it ever acceptable for, you know, even from the midnight to, you know, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or midnight until 8:00 a.m., ever acceptable for any staff in the a : No, it’s not acceptable. even if one staff you stay awake.” WS: Xo, «it’s not acceptable. ee : Okay. Not acceptable. Great. a : Now, we are human. Right? So, get up, go take a walk.” on occasion, EFTA00059774

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wo wo = a uw falling asleep together, that’s not -. a : Somebody got - that’s - then that’s - hey, I can’t -. a : You know. It’s just like this. I do hospital trips. I can’t go to sleep. Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a hospital trip. So you go to you one weapon, I’m dead. Or, we live in a world, everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. a : So, I just - I stood the watch, I ain’t sleeping. Stood the files that are printed out on Sundays and then would, you know, review in the mornings -- that printed them out, on Sunda ju weren’t the , they would. We received information that when Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get didn’t really have pos- with the indication EFTA00059775

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106 1 that someone may hav those files. Do N you know anything about that file being -. WwW 5 you know if it had -. 6 1 I know. you remember how ma documents were in that file? ies) limited. wo Rh ct = wu fs] there’s only one Sunday that went by 8 since he was found, I guess, on a Saturday, the wo would have had there? Would that be why it was a : Remember, he was in SHU from he got there, right? He was No he was placed with a bunkie. He went down, he was EFTA00059776

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on suicide watch. I don’t know how long he was on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch and we got that email. And I got that email, I got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. Then I heard from the Warden looking for a bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it’s not coming from me, it’s coming from the top. Okay. So I said, “All right,” so I’m here. | was still there, the Warden was still there. It was getting past my time I got to be back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when I got word, they said, “We got him a bunkie.” Spoke to a. he said, “I got it.” He stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on suicide watch. I took him up to attorney conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he wanted rec or whatever. I said, “You can get “” rec. Whatever he needed, and it was there from the institution, he got. Whether it was clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like everybody else, and he was afforded all the opportunities just like every other inmate. 107 EFTA00059777

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Ww So, I don’t know what else you all want to know. So would he a phone call. a : When the team giv a : -- his pin and pad number, or ee : Where would he be able to a: On the range. He would get it then? EFTA00059778

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co Ww moni ylute be like a : All right. And then -. a : Put it in the log book and then it would be on the computer, call went thro should that have been documented in and you can look the file or placed in the file, would that all be 109 EFTA00059779

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wo wo you document printed, he’s removed don’t know w all that other stuff? being is if h would tell me e’s no longer in the no longer be in the -. Just like if I go into will pull up his number, SENTRY that he’s deceased. ee : But if he was still in the system, s hould all the - whatever was in I 110 EFTA00059780

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ow oO wo wo a : He can’t - because SENTRY and BOPWare talks, it’s live, it’s almost like live. a : So the moment an inmate is moved from one housing unit to another housing Uh-huh. unit, his picture is taken from that - he’s no longer on that housing unit no more. He’s on this housing unit. Right? And if he’s placed in SHU, the inmate picture still can be on the file, but his location will show that he’s housed in SHU. ee : But will all the documents that were created in, you know, in the SHU, would they all be maintained somewhere Well, you could go back, I don’t know how long it is, but I know that I 7) had to pull records for an inmate that had left prior to, or whatever. If it was documented, it’s probably still there, I don’t know. So, but that - it’s some way you got to play Alright. may be in the system. with the system to go back. It’s like post 111 EFTA00059781

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112 1 292s or something like that, like when they 2 leave. Unit team can see whatever and can pull t 5 you were saying that Epstein was always 6 afforded clothing and things that. 8 ee: So I guess in his cell, he had an abundant amount wo 0 clo 11 a : Well, I don’t know. 2 ee : Now who was the one who would provide the clothing? 4 a : The o 5 ee : And would they - are th 16 supposed to maintain how much -. ing in there. WwW 8 exchange. 20 lot of that wo ff in 21 something to talk to 22 a : Yeah. And sometimes inmates hide it, you know, under the mattress or Nh WwW 24 whatever, but the officers would have to, you w know, they’r ke it down, so. EFTA00059782

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113 i) fe) ct is] oO =} @ rt a jo 5 Q WwW he 0 recently learned that E he was 2 found. So, about six days before, I think he WwW 6 they cell rotation: Right. him and his bunkie to nsible 22 a : The person that did the cell EFTA00059783

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No WwW ow oO wo wo 114 whoever did the cell rotation is the one that would -. a: It’s not the Lieutenant. a : It comes up, the next day I check it, 21 day cell rotation. Before I leave, I verify it and make sure that it done. as : August 9th, which would put us at like, you wm 30 if six days before know, August 3rd or something, he was moved but the cell was never reassigned to him. Is that something that you would have reviewed? a : He was moved when? prior, he was moved, but his - he was located in a cell that wasn’t actually assigned to him. So the assumption is that, like you said, it was a cell rotation but they never went and keyed - you know the cell was never keyed to him. He was still assigned to a different cell. a : I don’t know (Indiscernible *01:30:50). EFTA00059784

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N WwW wo 7) WwW wo 24 know? conspiracy theorists out there KK @ =] 0 ct wu = i K @ O Hh ct p wu ct h 5S Mh is) BK 3 i ct bh 2) is anyone in charge of the cell rotation or who a : Well, the OIC, who - you know, the day watch OIC is in charge, you know, of making sure of cell rotations and things get done. It’s printed out daily to see on the paper about cell rotations. Because the region looks at that, you know, if somebo cell past 20 something da - actually, the Captain is supposed to review and look at that, you know. : But you’re -. a : But I look at it as well -- ee : You look at it? EFTA00059785

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116 w n ct 7s o Ww 5 uh, no. on You didn’t notice that? 7 Huh-uh. e, I’m making 8 bunkie. - if he - if it’s 9 0 1 get around to checking, 2 ve been a billion things EFTA00059786

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you’re stretched thin. What is your, like, primary function when you’re in there? GE: When I’m in sHu? a : I run the building, from SHU. To, you know, just making sure - I try to make sure that everybody is doing what they’re supposed to do. I’m checking on these inmates myself and I’m making sure to keep this - because it’s already a stressful environment, so I’m making sure, you know, people are getting showered, you know, I’m making sure, you know, I’m trying to, you know, we didn’t have rec for a long time, you know. At that time, we had, you know, two rec officers. Sometimes our rec officers are not there, you know, and we’re all helping each other, you know. Showers was every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, you know. So we’re trying making sure inmates got, you know, hygiene and things of that nature is being taken care of. Ee : Okay. Back to that phone call. That is authorized to let inmates in the SHU have phone calls on unrecorded lines? a : Have to be approved by the Unit EFTA00059787

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Ne] WwW don’t do unmonitored phone ee : Oh, I’m sorry. I thought would allow Ep from the SHU. a : No, I said, he would be you know, he would number, not an unmonitored Eee : But did he have a pin and pad number? a : I don’t know. His unit team him a pin pad number. a : I don’t know if he had it or wu 118 EFTA00059788

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Ne] WwW WwW that you would allow him -. a : No, I said, he would be a : Don’t switch the would be comes to Special Housing, they are afforded a a : So maybe is it wording, I had that written ee : No, (Indiscernible wn too. ) ct o a a 2 f clear on these calling from I never EFTA00059789

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Ww wo wo in what, the did EFTA00059790

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Ne] WwW a phone call. All right. And then we talked about, ook? You’d you don’t know call. All right. And the All right. And you were down or clothing and linens And were you 121 EFTA00059791

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Ne] WwW co Ww 122 and things like They are authorized - them u weren’t present not rounds -. a : Naw. MHuh-uh. my watch. What? to you. EFTA00059792

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1 were at work on the h. You’re not, but let’s 2 you were at work on the 9th. Reyes is 3 sometime between 7:00 a.m., 8:00 6 a : MCC wouldn’t know the fact 7 that, “Hey, he’s not coming back,” but mehow wo Ne] WwW 4 return. 1:00 and 6 2:00 p.m. -- “ is notified, “Hey, fee} | I © k b- 13) rt Oo 7 Oo if] =] O ct 20 a : Uh-huh. 21 a : Who would have got notified? 22 It would have came through -. a : R&D? And R&D would have notified who? EFTA00059793

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ow oO oo wo wo 124 a : They should have notified the AW or notified their supervisor. a : Would they have notified the OIC in the SHU? a : It depends on who’s the officer, I don’t know. ee: But they wouldn’t be required to let the housing unit a : They would -. | tti‘iai‘éwl -- where they came from? No? a : After the court list comes out, or whatever, the count changes on the El. If they get - if the courts kept them, or whatever, so whoever that R&D staff is, I don’t know what their protocols are, whatever, but - because it’s a whole different department but we all work together. As a Lieutenant, only way I would catch it on - probably on morning watch or on - if I’m evening watch, when I’m doing my log and I run the 38, the daily change log, and depending on what I’m looking at, I’m going to see who’s off my base count. The morning watch Lieutenant is going to write down EFTA00059794

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo rybody who left the institution the prior I know. But I’m asking, tification did come between a : You are - let’s say you were a : Uh-huh. a : -- and that notification came down to the SHU and they were notified. HE: vb-huh. a : If you were at work, what taken? a : I would and, like, well, you know, his bunkie, you know, has left and I would have let the Captain know that we have to find him a new bunkie -- a : -- and if they would, you know, have somebo a : You were not at work that EFTA00059795

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126 in two, awa wo ould he have done? 0 WN: #e should 1 Housing, “Hey, this « a bunkie.” 3 a : But if Epstein was downstairs, i) ~ (a7) H- ct 7 4 nobody wouldn’t have 5 his attorn : But wouldn’t have they known 8 that Epst 9 wouldn’t that queue them ir 20 Ss not going to a Nh i) : Oo H oe fu rt could have - that’s ND la ue] 12] n a) p- on paar oO there were no o fw het EFTA00059796

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wo wo notification ever made - let’s just go through vne the who process. would actually catch didn’t have a bunkie? =] is the first time they the fact that Epstein a : You make rounds, you make a round, “Oh, shit, you he need a bunkie.” minute rounds. back at, let’s say, 7 should have known? 10:00 p.m. count? it depends on - all r conference goes from right? Attorne o’clock in the mornin let’s y he went dow A if) rt] het to 7:30 p.m., whatever ‘re by yourself. Hey, but So any one of the 30 Uh-huh. So basically, if y he came Ww f=) :00 p.m., by 7: they And certainly by the Most definitely, because ight, the attorney 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., g. So if he’s down there, n 10 o’clock. Right? Uh-huh. e’s down there from 10:00 that time. he has = S) ~] L EFTA00059797

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Ne] WwW Ww At stripped that back to the cell I’m putting him back kie. g this guy d when you oO in the cell, EFTA00059798

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2 Yeah. Because you have to open 3 ook in oO fe) S o a fw Q ct Oo oO m cuffed or he i] 7 should have been cuffed, placed on the range 8 and when they crack that door, before they 9 crack that door to make is in 0 there. If nobody was in there, somebody should have got the horn and, “Hey, he don’t have a om WwW 16 And at that point if, somewhere between when he was escorted back and fee} 10:00 p.m. -- its) = | a c ioe 20 Eee : -- could have a new 21 bunkie been put in there with him? 22 HM: Pexhap ee : Just perhaps? Not -. a : Or he could have been placed in is] , yeah. EFTA00059799

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wo Ww bh ot) oS a : -- by his self. ae: should h going in a hard cell until the morning. ee : And should have the SHU A rt ow hh hh know if the wo EFTA00059800

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Ne] WwW Ww we had a have a suicide cell and they probably had housing rec alone, that’s on J Tier and then to midnight. ee : And would it be one or EFTA00059801

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So Noel and Thomas are on from mi Ww 4 to 8:00 a.m. When they know during their shift mate, should h notified Notified our co is) =] oO rt bh + B @ pen by his ay. And how serious do fre not making 8 notification 1 someone died in this EFTA00059802

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] NS — ine] uw = ies) Wo If they’re in a different situation, if they weren’t making that notification, is that serious? Is that a serious infraction of policy or of, you know, the correctional -- a: I mean -. a : Yeah, I mean, because, to me, I had people that tried to hang themselves and I signments? ] i) work morning watch and I work evening watch. I’m going to check on that individual and I’m making sure they good. CE: sere. a : And I’m telling everybody, “Yo, make sure you all are doing rounds because, you know, not on my watch,” and anybody will tell you, I’m known for making big rounds, what you doing? We doing big rounds, right? Rounds rounds, rounds, and we checking on inmates in the Special Housing Unit. That’s what I’m € known for. I can’t account for anybody else, but I know me, I’m checking on the individual. EFTA00059803

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WwW know. And morning, h he went to - did he yu any kind of indication that he might be wanting to take his own life? o take his own life? a : What do yx a : Someone else - a : No, nobody kill mean? killed that man. He him. EFTA00059804

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Nh No N N WwW wo WwW fee} wo ie] Ww Nobody killed that man. The question has to be asked. Nobody killed him. Listen, all the conspiracy theories, out the window, okay? killed his self. Okay? It’s unfortunate that he did this and now, here that’s what cowards do, for him. nobody killed the man. Could window, you Epstein is standing at the window. EFTA00059805

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10 11 12 13 17 18 19 ee : But otherwise, unless you go up to the door, you can’t see. a : Unless you go up to the door, Nuh-uh. You can see if a light is on. But, let me put this on record. The SHU is broken, it needs to be fixed. Okay? Inmates control the lights from the inside. Officers, they just started now putting the lights on the outside. Okay? We should be able to control the lights. We should be able to flick the lights on and look inside the cell. No inmate should be able to press a button and look inside the cell or disfigure the lights. Hn: «Sos you don’t have - you didn’t have the ability to actually turn the lights on inside -- ee : -- of their cells? a : No, there was a switch, but you still couldn’t - the inmate can press the button and only one of the lights would come on and if that light wasn’t working, they you can’t see inside the cell unless you tell him to get up out of their bed and put that light on. Or if you have a flashlight, you know, EFTA00059806

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N ow oO oo wo 10 wo you’re flashing it in there. the cells are broken, to been change the cells. wooden doors for know, they just did a couple of them was even falling off years, just - the range, But, man. You know, but not in SHU. our range, those doors. And the hinges. Wa 03) there any you know, They were supposed they had You they some of conversation that you recall when Epstein was there of placing him : Not that I into 10 South? recall. believe he Do you have been placed in 10 South versus the they said he was. So, you know, would have been more that’s not my call. I mean, Everybody it to me that was closely monitored, And whose call is place someone in 10 South? It’s the Warden and the And have you ever s actually even over their head should S U? high-profile like else went up he but bh rt ct is) heard for 10 EFTA00059807

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wo wo something, you k mail is Team. comes Juan i f handed - SHU Lieu rom the §S at SAMS is? No. Yes. That they said all Special Security Mea it) sures, now, there’s - you know, their everything is by SIS and Unit tenant. Anything that they get HU Lieutenant because we have D like, you know, they are - you sure that they’re ready to Like, I was there, you know, for Guzman, I w as the SHU Lieutenant, and nothing happened to him. ee : What happened to him? quart was in 10S Nothing. You know, he stood trial and he 1e in 10 South? tes Yes. And all the other inm i) outh under my watch. i) rbacking, should have been 4 do you believe that tein n Pp in 10 South then? EFTA00059808

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= ioe) Ye] 1 a : Or on G Tier. That’s 10 h lower? WwW N K o 7) they 5 basically accomplish the same mission. 7 cells are hard because r the win ve] 9 try to anything, 0 know, shower 1 break away or - Where 2 the towels, break away. 7 a : That’s not my call. didn’t know if -. ) 22 a : I only do what I’m told. or something, you got to use the bathroom? EFTA00059809

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wo [ea] Be I’m just going to show you Uh-huh. You just tal Uh-huh. SHU count on that? You the count on there? J a EFTA00059810

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count Q a : If you were the Lieutenant, up, what would took it. the -. aus a : The count is wrong. a : And what would you have done? a : Count again. a : You told them to count it a : First, I would have - whatev that they called in, right? If I’m i) ial taking the count, right? I’m the official unt person, okay? EFTA00059811

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Ne] WwW Ne] WwW wo 142 watch operations, right? I’m taking the the 12 o’clock count. After the 12 0 I don’t have to worry about the no more. I mean, to worry about the count, but I’m making rounds, I’m making sure everything is good. Right? But I want to know what I got. This number right here, is the number that I’m down to the SHU and witnessed the new count? wu = f o bh ct ts] O =] te bh Kh bh rt n wu double bad. EFTA00059812

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If it’s the double bad 2 yt to go up with a a bed 3 book r er and we, you know, we tell our “Stand.” At night, it’s different uw oO oO Q fu is ise you’re supposed to see living, 6 re esh. So we’re not requi call in i) a wu 0 rt O fo) c ue] | — i) Q wy Cc a 0) o) Oo 5 D rt b- 3 ‘iv n ct @ ke WwW ct oS o wrong n umber. 5 that’s -- 6 Have you ever - 9 The (Indi 20 - 21 You don’t have to worry EFTA00059813

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N N Nh Nh wo wo ho WwW uw who called count into Control said that, “Hey, I wrote down 73 on the slip, but one of our guys is out of the unit, he’s in another place, but I still counted him.” Does that make any sense to you? What if they got - a: Yes, it makes sense to me, but me as a Control Center officer, no, it’s wrong. ee: Right. And should have a person - so say like -- | tti‘iai‘éwl -- should have Noel or Thomas known -. a : You want to know what I - damn, I should not, oh my God. But should Noel or Thomas known they shouldn’t ye written 73 if they knew the number was 72 and one guy was somewhere else? Should have they known that the number was 72? HN: X0u only - I’m going to put it to you this way. You only write the number of number of people that you have on the housing unit. Okay. If you have more than the EFTA00059814

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oo wo o wo ine) oO ine] NS — ine] uw number that you have in the housing unit, that means somebody is not where they’re supposed to be. If you have less than you have on the housing unit, this tells me two things. surprise us with. a : Okay. Originally, it was and that’s the count that they called in. —J wo Somebody realized, “Hey, this guy is not here. Holy shit. Oh, he has - did we key him out? Holy shit. We didn’t key him out. Oh, key that guy out.” If that guy was keyed out, I don’t know, after 10 o’clock, 11 7] o'clock, when this was printed - this was printed at 12:35, the computers don’t come back up until 12:30. After 12:30 you can log on the computer and print if you want. ee : Does this tell you that they didn’t conduct the count and they just used the number that -. a : That says a lot of things. ae : What does it say to you? 3) EFTA00059815

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N Ww Ww 9 20 Nh 146 That says a lot of things. of things. But me, as the 0 new count slip and any sense that that count and did one that said 72, would it make 73 one that WN: No. = That one that shouldn’t have been there -- a) a : -- because that’s wrong. you agree that the e that are written there appears to be an homas and a Noel? we don’t -- EFTA00059816

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Ww Ww wo opportunity for some just initial and d date the top of WaS going ked at something, en is typic to R&D? 7 we showed ever have th one more ally EFTA00059817

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oo 1 a : Only way that they’re going to ‘re going on the bus, the No w Re t a] b- .Q 7 i b t WwW 5 WN: nd that’s normally on ct be 4 0) = ie) o bo jon ct p fii) 1] 2) 0) Ne] WwW 5 correc 6 ically, yeah. : You would have no - want ow what happened on a Friday night, wo Saturday mo 20 a : Nope, no. Only people that -itution ct a im ime \ t a K 0] n EFTA00059818

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WwW K i) notice under count? call came going to be in not Uh-huh. the If call Pp. ou said that m. (Indiscernible just you one out 2:00 the longer did, 's he EFTA00059819

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No S) No WwW wo WwW wo WwW Explain that. R&D is Receiving and We don’t get notified. The courts notify R&D. Marshals notify R&D. R&D has a supervisor, have officers that are movement, they know - would know before I would know and so they have to make the proper notification to have notifi notifications and That’s what I was going to If R&D did make that the SHU and who else should ed to get The The Case Manager Coordinator. u + 13) 6K Coordinat tho would that be on - do we have the schedule? Oh, I don’t 150 EFTA00059820

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Ww Ww tad Oo if know the notific No, they until when we or the 1) o you mean 38, meanin was ma¢ n’t be on that R&D is a whole courts talk to Normally R&D, you og. Uh-huh. 151 EFTA00059821

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Ww wo initialing it and dating as well. we sir. c A No K H nN anything ee : All right. So that’s all know what it was 152 EFTA00059822

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10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 153 a : No. I’m just - I wasn’t there. So unfortunately, what happened, happened. Everybody works different. I know there’s an investigation, but through all the conspiracy stuff, everybody, the staff that was there when they found him, they worked hard to try to revive him and save his life. But, unfortunately, you know, it turned to a sad event. But we are very well understaffed. Had we had more officers - I know everybody want to point the finger, but it’s an unfortunate thing to happen, you know? You know, a lot of things have to change in the BOP, you know, but, you know, I only can be as truthful and honest with you as I can, you know? a : On that note, you just made me think of one more small question. You said that they did work hard on saving his life. Was it okay that Thomas immediately went into the cell upon seeing Epstein in the state that he was in or should have he waited? a : He made a decision. ee : All right so was it - do you -. a : I would have made the same EFTA00059823

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No that WwW 6 an immediate supervisor if it’s an emergency situation. fee) All right. So if is telling us that, “No,” t needed 0 to wait for a Lieutenant to come down there =r I would have did it was li EFTA00059824

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in order to overthrow, you know, that that. No iQ i] wu 6 fe! KR No. That’s bullshit. WwW Thatlea + nat’ s what 2 went in by himself if Noel is down range, he he was -. ve WwW if she’s down, 7) 6 not with him, he goes in by himself, is that a : I probably would have - if I I’m making a decision. EFTA00059825

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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 156 Pe a : You understand? ee : Yeah. No, I’m only asking - yeah. a : No, the policy states, you know, it’s two to one, you know, two officers to one inmate. Then they came and they said, “One to one ratio,” but they never really changed it, that’s word of mouth. But it’s always two to one, right? If you down range with me, it’s two to one. So if it’s an emergency situation and I’ve activated my body alarm, I’m a go get you. Okay? Now, who knows, he could have been faking a funk. Come in there, he came in his cell and try to escape. Now you got the keys, now your SHU is compromised. So it’s a judgment call. But at the end of the day, I’ve been in situations where two people in my career tried to commit suicide. I saved both of them. Okay? One was early, I think early this year, January or something or late last year. Inmate tried to kill himself. I was called upstairs. I didn’t wait. They said, “Operations to the Special Housing Unit -” I mean, Special Housing. I EFTA00059826

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ow oO ~—] wo didn’t wait. I came upstairs ASAP. They let me in and the dude was hanging. I did my 583, I did my notification to the Warden, right? Did they thank me? No, she sent me a personal email like three days later. You know who did it, I did, but it’s okay. I’m there for officers. I’m there to save lives. I did my job. Prior to that, I still had a guy, a young man who was in the newspaper, gang member. Okay? I saved his lift. He was hanging on J Tier in a suicide cell, tried to hang himself. We went in there, grabbed him with enough staff and we lowered him down. After that, there was a young boy. Always had a bunkie. Who was the SHU Lieutenant? Me. Okay? So do I - from experience, yes, I know. Do I talk to my crew? Yes. Was it documented? Yes. That’s all I can say. ee : So yeah, you agree with his decision, it was okay? a: He made a decision. Ee : Absolutely. a : You know? HN: 811 right? EFTA00059827

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WwW add before we turn Anything else you want to this thing off? currently 8:06 This is Senior and I am turning All right. It is = wi oo EFTA00059828

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oO rtify that the ate transcript of the 159 EFTA00059829

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