10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 DIGITALLY RECORDED DEPARTMENT OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES dside Drive, 28632 SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 OCTOBER 27, Ro ra Hills, OF JUSTICE 2021 a Suite 91301 285 EFTA00058871

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LIMITED 1 oO ot) oO co OFFICIAL OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL w K WITN EFTA00058872

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 oO wo fF ive) ? ey) KH i?) Ph fw 3 ie) Fh ni b ra fw - i) tn tment of Justice, 14 eral im igation. 15 is 27th, 2021, and tt t o rt b- 3 0) f fa i ( This interview is being 17 conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? NOWN MALE: Madi oo ie) 23 O 515 Madison 24 New York, New York. Also 9 EFTA00058873

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 MALE: Edward 4 attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? Edward H H-A-Y-E-S. oO Who is This inte will 7] Q D t o °) ot 0 its] D w Ki D -- a. First name -- EFTA00058874

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co ite) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm so arrogant that I don’t carry identification. You know what I mean? down here, you are willing to pay the MR. HAYES: You know who I am. FY law enforcement gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you, EFTA00058875

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 Edward Hayes. I'm his WwW ra Ss K 3] on \ \ , re in wi -- perfect, and we oe | a Bp un bp o fw 3 ce] rh Hh bh 0 ra mw k te) o vestigation into the death of 0 Jef Ph rey Epstein and circumstances 1 surrounding it, and you are being asked to 2 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 3 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 4 the DOJ/OIG? I will. 16 Ee : Thank you, sir. This is do all interviews, oo No R Nh ine) fon 25 going to read it for you - United States EFTA00058876

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure.” And this is what we are writing for everyone that we speak to, just because we’re looking at it as a -- HE: Right. ee: -- whole of what happened. “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you chose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00058877

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been ” used against me. If you would like to take a look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if you want your attorney to look at it, he may, as well. ee : You can sign where it says “Employee Signature.” And then, also write your name. I did read it verbatim. MR. HAYES: I'm sure you did. Okay. There is no place that said attorneys -- MR. HAYES: -- signatures. Ee : It’s not for you to sign. It’s for him, myself, and the witness. It’s just if you wanted to review it, or ask any MR. HAYES: No, that’s all right. HE: «= -- vestions about it. MR. HAYES: That’s all right. I do have a question. ee: Where do you want me to sign? MR. HAYES: In other words, if you say to EFTA00058878

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LIMITED w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE him -- ” MR. HAYES: I'm not ernible I mean, (Indis doing right now, for voluntar are interviews, he doesn't have to answer our No, I don’t. EFTA00058879

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LIMITED OFFIC 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the 3 my name. 4 Oh, one thing. So, 5 uld take notes. I’ve at 6 20 a. I'm signing as the witness, and dating 23 starting the interview, I would like to 25 raise your right hand? AL USE 10 EFTA00058880

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 3 this « 6 What is current home EFTA00058881

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 August. 7 Ee : All right. And wi current position with the BOP? ss) c ini Hi Fort EFTA00058882

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LIMITED OFFICIAL : -- new position? 1 a: the 20 institutions 13 know, Mar 14 know, showing th 15 running in an orderly 20 was the rating official on a warden EFTA00058883

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 warden the 13 1¢ Lo en, I went into the And are EFTA00058884

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 you familiar with inmate y Epstein, who 2) Ph in July and ive) oO wo 11 Ee : All right. So, this is are actually familiar + Ww b- ct 7 14 Ee: No, I am not. 15 scus any 16 with you? 18 to wo 19 set this aside 0 20 know, re 22 Nothing. I wasn’t 23 ken to. 24 All right. Do or I mean, talked to EFTA00058885

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and at least about, like, providing the information that they utilized to this report? ee: No. Okay. Fair enough. After the incident occurred, what was your role with determining what happened and what didn't happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019? a: Well, I responded to the institution. At the time, when I got there, he was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, and I've always been trained, if it was a crime scene, if you weren’t particularly there, the least amount of people that, you know, that go through that crime scene, just don’t go into it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, basically gathering information on what happened, notifying the region, notifying the FBI. The IG. MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). He’s already got that phone call. a: MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00058886

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 2 MR. HAYES: -- like, fuck it, I'm going to Ww n 0] a bt - 7 2) pall iss w MR. HAYES: That’s why we do it for the 7 ee : So, there was a lot of 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 9 And things 10 1 ee : Now, did you help with 2 gathering information, up until a certain 3 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 4 or did you continue to gather -? 5 ae: No, like, my bo information. You know, starting a timeline on happened. So, I had fF 9 | there, and, you know, we would just 20 gather any information, and just, ~] know, 21 making sure that, you know, that were 22 requested were being provided to them, any information. No ox) 24 es : And who was the regional 25 director at the time? EFTA00058887

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LIMITED oO wi oO co -- and things like timelines from - again, Found aro. Mm-hmm. Ps: ecial Unit. This is a timeline rting with, it 2019, at 11 It EFTA00058888

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 wo 1 what is being relayed to DOJ.” Now, is this -. And then, what I have behind it is, these are 3 different timelines that are all updated 4 throughout the day. 6 ee : Here is one that was at 7 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one 8 was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 9 12th And then, the final one that we have is 10 the August 13th. So, these, do these look like 11 the timelines that you would have been 2 gathering information and providing to Mr. ive) 4 Ee: Okay. It looks like it. 15 ee : Now, where were you 16 actually obtaining this information from? You 7 said fF was obtaining it for you? 8 ae: He was the a. we recall, 9 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 20 specifics on how we get it, because there wa 21 so much going on. 23 ee: That, you know, I don’t 24 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you 25 know, calling around and trying to find out. EFTA00058889

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 3 to ra am H pe Q 2. rt o rea am ial wu cr 7 D ial 3 than get into each one of th it 5 6 7 cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge 8 ff initially.” is 9 first initial attempt that Epstein may have had 10 on his life? t ive) No. This is -- 14 Ee: This is July. c o H 5 jen Bb un Q (D K 5 t ion fa @ + ~] wo c oo e © wu a -- no, the -- 22 -- timeline. 23 -- this would -. We would 24 Ss 95 EFTA00058890

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LIMITED ho ho No ive) oO wo fea] oo wo Ww OFFICIAL USE 21 From that. I actual suicide. This is No. What I meant was -- : -ben. a : -- and what he did was, compile this information to send to Oh, you’re right. EFTA00058891

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 22 -- sent this to you. So, | | = 7 Bp ie] om 7 D Q 2) on i) 3 wn i) Q king at this, then, let’s just yiew it and make each point, just make sure that it’s what 2aking to staff. EFTA00058892

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LIMITED OFFIC 3 while on suicide 4 your r 5 Yeah. That is what is in 6 want to -- wo know, when I, when 15 16 17 That's —-— Li rnat’s F fos) 7 k Q > + 95 EFTA00058893

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 2019. It starts with, “8:00 a.m., inmate Reyes 2 Efrain, reg number 85993-054, departs for 3 court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. Reyes is Epstein’s 4 cellmate.” oO wi | yy ion Q a rt So, just starting with 7 that, then, I do have, we’re going to get into 8 that later, but what does that tell you, if it 9 for court, but 10 11 Ee: So, that would mean With All Ww wn ie) - a wu rt =] o wu 5 n a oO n 5 0 rt t wi K oO wo 16 GS: S81 ight. So, at 8:00 7 a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leaving, not 8 coming back to the MCC. 20 Gs 8) ight. Great. And 21 then, it just goes on from there, what happens 22 throughout that day. And we’re going to get 23 into these things more in detail, so I don’t 24 want to go through each thing, because we’re 25 going to have to get into it later. But so, EFTA00058894

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 w ~] oO 10 11 this information is stuff that you guys were compiling, and you were providing to Mr. a. ee: That would probably be information that we sent up to him. ee : Okay. Great. And then, this is all the updates that occurred afterwards. Let’s see. Why is that highlighted? So, here is something. Why, do you know why in this one, it would be updated? This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, “7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the warden.” Is that just, put that in the wrong place or something, and it says, “Inmate Reyes released from court.” WN: (indiscernible *00:16:27). Ee : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 10th. HE: hmm. = (Indiscernible *00:16:34). Ee : Yeah. Okay. So, the next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It just shows the next update, you have that under August - or Saturday - August 10th. EFTA00058895

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 oO gust 10th. 10 a : Yeah. I don't know why it 13 I 15 Oo oO 8) = iu) K iti) wu Q cr 7 r b kK oO Fh rh EFTA00058896

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 N w ~] ive) day. : Yeah. I didn't come back to work until, when I got called, there was a suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). Okay. So, all of this. So, if I can have that back, if you don’t mind. All right. Is it safe to 3) So, all of thi 1s) assume that, as this went on, and specifically, the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, would be the most accurate timeline? It should be, but I don’t want to attest to it. I mean -- ee : Yeah, yeah. Ee : I'm just saying, based - is there any reason for you to believe that the timelines that were provided, or in any way, it was determined that, you know, we should add a point that actually didn't occur? Or is it safe to assume that, the last one that was sent would be the most accurate one? : That’s how it typically works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't attest to it -- EFTA00058897

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE ho er it was lly, the last one that you ME: -— "= going to initial and date, and that’s just to u is is] rt rt oO ifically, that this is the document we It is initial and date. EFTA00058898

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oO LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 n 1 have you do every single one. And I'm going to 2 put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and 3 I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. 4 WN:_)sWhat’s the date? The 18th? fon) w N Nm J J rt rt ) a 9 initialing and dating that. All right I'm 10 going to just actually, because it’s the 11 timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me because we might have to reference it. Nm ive) i HAYES: I can tell -- 5 MR. HAYES: -- this is going to be a long- 16 ass interview : MS; ='s going to be pretty 8 long That’s where I was trying to -- 9 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Just -. 20 Es: = you know? All right. 21 So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you 22 recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate 23 Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? 24 ae: I recall the investigation 25 that couldn’t determine if they had an EFTA00058899

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 30 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt ing happened was with, like, a - was it a around his neck? know, that 0) but I don’t recall the specifics of But I know it went back attempt, or an issue with a : Tartaglione. All right. ved with Mm-hmm. EFTA00058900

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 a -- about this. It >», it was originally, I EFTA00058901

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 “From the memo attached, the information I received is not what I was told happened.” ee: So, what I wanted to know is, and I guess, would you like me just to refresh your memory, to really quickly read what she said happened, so we can figure out what it is that didn't happen? a : Okay. Yeah. A: «811 right. So, this is subject, “Possible suicide attempt.” Again, July 23rd, 2019. It says, “On July -”. Let me just sit back so you can just kind of read along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to you? a: No. No problem. ee : I'm vaccinated, just so you know. It says, “On July 23rd, 2019, at approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance on the Special Housing Unit was announced by the control center. Upon my arrival, I was informed that an inmate had attempted suicide and proceeded to cell Z05-124LAD. I observed inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, lying in the fetal position on the floor of his EFTA00058902

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no further injuries to his person. An attempt was made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to stand on his own, with negative results. The inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff was directed to retrieve the stretcher. As inmate Epstein was being placed on the stretcher by responding staff, he would open his eyes and observe staff. When staff made eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit.” Was it that? The health care? ee: Health. Health Services. ee : “Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the | | of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him again, he attempted the same act. I laid him EFTA00058903

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety. At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won't do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member observe inmate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer Clark, who stated that Inmate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514- 054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him. He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘Jeff. What are you doing?’ He didn't answer. So, he got up, turned on the light,” or - so, yeah - “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck. He stated that he then called the guards, EFTA00058904

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he’s old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn’t remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn’t responding. He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the Daily News. Nick was on the floor reading the Daily News. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on. At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, ‘These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is inhumane. I wish I could report it. ia. EFTA00058905

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.’ He then turned to a page in the Daily News that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars. Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff’s arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn't he respond when we were calling out to him. He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn’t care. Duty medical doctor -" how do you pronounce that name? MENS. 2 -A-v-p-0-v-1-N. “was notified and briefed. It was determined that EFTA00058906

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 w ~] ive) no further medical attention was needed. A medical assessment was not conducted at the time of this incident, due to the fact there was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate Epstein was examined and treated by M-L-P-Y.” a : Joaquin. He: = Joaquin. J-0-A-Q-U-I-N. “For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base of his neck. One section on the front, with marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his left knee.” So, sorry that that was n fe) lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, is this, is this, does anything in here strike you as inaccurate? | says that in the attached memo, “The information I received is not what I was told happened.” Do you know what she is referring to? a : I think she - if I recall - that she told, that said that it was an attempted suicide, but then she got any additional information that it might have been EFTA00058907

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Wo o 1 Epstein and Tartaglione having an issue in his 2 cell. 3 ee : And what, and my 4 understanding is that S came up with 5 inconclusive findings. 6 ae: In the investigation. 7 Ee : What is your belief that happened? a : I can't speculate. 10 Ee : You don’t -. 11 Ee: I don’t want -. I mean, I fe) wo 2 don’t know, you know, with the injuries on the 3 neck, I don’t know if it was a suicide, and I 4 don't know, based on Epstein’s statement, that 15 was something done to him. So, couldn’t prove 16 what it was. 7 Ee : Okay. And is it, is 8 there any reason for us to know or believe that 9 it was one or the other, though? I know you 20 are trying not to speculate, but -. 21 ae: I mean, I would, you know, 22 you have there be the medical department, who 23 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 24 you could say you come to a conclusion from 25 injuries, from physical injuries, but we EFTA00058908

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Wo oO 1 weren’t even able to do that. 2 | tti‘aiézél; So, according to the 3 medical assessment, your understanding is that 4 -? 5 ae: That, from what I - if I can 6 - and I don’t know - I read it - but I don't 7 know -. I remember on the report, they were 8 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 9 what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he 10 assaulted 11 ee : And were you satisfied 2 with that response, or did you think that they 3 missed something? 4 HS: St chink they looked into it. 15 And I think it was, you know, you couldn’t look 16 into it any further. I mean, either -- ~] 8 ae: -- it was a suicide, or it 9 was assault. So, we separated them. 21 So, it didn't like, keep digging, or you 22 weren’t, you -? 23 ee: I mean, they interviewed 24 them. They asked the questions. You had the 25 medical assessment. So, I don’t know what EFTA00058909

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] co wo OFFICIAL USE K know we ct + oO a watc you know, initialing and dating that one, that we just EFTA00058910

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 5 ee : Was that something wo ' Ww Hh wu 3) ct cnow, the document 14 it was just, you know, it was just an 15 error did document, its] is) EFTA00058911

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LIMITED 1 OFFICIAL U he would Just from our records and from EFTA00058912

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 you’re putting your name, if yu are relieved, 2 or you assume suicide watch. 3 ee : So, here is the next 4 email, so you might be able to show me an 5 example of what you are referring to. It’s this oO oO mail, i 7] it the same thing you were 7 and this is, like, maybe this is the real log 8 that maybe he should have been using. But wo here, it shows all the other logs. i=) 2 a: See, this is what I mean by 3 when someone comes on duty, but this is what 4 leave -- a: -- they mix the book up. 7 But they must have wrote it in the suicide log. fea] 8 But typically, when you come on, let’s the 9 shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full 20 name, as assuming the duties. 22 a : And you typically say who 23 you relieved on there. 24 es : All right. So, it looks 25 like they maybe didn't fill it out correct EFTA00058913

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fee) OFFICIAL USE 44 a : They didn't fill it out correctly. 7) Oo, our investigation ee : -- that was on him on the watching him on suicide watch, and then that he is the one that found him on the 10th? and we go by when you sign up for it. up for, and don't know how the QJ dia. They might have called them, then he signed up for it. So, I don't know. I can't if it was suspicious or not. EFTA00058914

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 45 ervation log, and this is, appe cover of a logbook, for suicide w Perfect. in your -. If I think it is you might be EFTA00058915

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE use it say i mind just initial as I am ME: -- eking a suicide wat in there, I gue on ) oo n is] n s right here ’ O+iv rvation is being giving th in order with stack them on tip, though, keep them, like, together, so we know this is ps rvation logbook. EFTA00058916

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 47 and then write a note on them. yu can keep them, things in order. This one is regarding the first attempt, and the one we read from | | titi‘ésC*s And can you tell me, sir, what So, it is that same date that he came off of -. What am I signature. -. Is this a entrance log to the § Housing Unit? Ee : I'm not sure. That’s ae: I'm just, I don't know. It might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. st up until 7/30, that he was in the cial Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein. So, I don't know if he would gn himself in. No, no. EFTA00058917

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LIMITED ive) oO wo fea] oo 19 t rar ho No OFFICIAL USE 48 a : I don't know. It might be ee : Or is it to the attorn something? MES: | -- i= might be Signature. Inmate name. Name. This might be an attor Yeah. Mm-hmm. a new ying who So, he had multiple -- EFTA00058918

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 4 a: This is an attorney log. He 5 usually had multiple atto 6 t 8 13 14 are visiting. 15 the visitor log 16 17 Yeah kh ing that? And again, a. i want to write on 19 initial and da 22 -- attorney 23 that we can keep track of 24 what it is things are. Now, is this the 25 same thing we just lo at? This s like, EFTA00058919

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) again, it says, “Inmate companion assumed duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. ian until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion was utilized.” a : Mm-hmm. Ee : So, this one says July 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch chronological log. ME: inmate companion logs Does this tell you anything more about ft a. or anything different? What is this? That’s just he’s on it? ee: Yeah. It just says, you know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. You got category. I don't know what the MDS is, but typically, it’s an assignment. Like, n could put in and do a PP-37 w 5 d say where he was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, this must be a medical term. Concerning his medical status. This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? I EFTA00058920

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 b rt J Bp io) i fA rt y o al bh Hi wn rt ie] nt] iw) pe ct hb ie) re] peal O) be pe fan iw) oO Fh cr ia D oO wo ot) 14 mpanion was watching him. 15 16 Oh, 18 22 it tell us which, who the inmate was, that 23 was his companion? No Inmate companion Esteban *00 51), and it has his number EFTA00058921

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 52 All right. Mm-hmm. 7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and S companion on dating that? Ee : This is - so, July 23rd this is when he was on suicide watch, not ono is, again, it’ ion. w Ph H Oo | fe) oC + oO ops/suicide EFTA00058922

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wo ios) 1 watch. And it looks like it’s the difference 2 between the two. ies) Right. 4 ee : In laymen’s terms, what 5 is the difference between suicide watch and 6 chological observation at the MC during this time period when Epstein was on it? 8 ee: So, suicide watch is when we 9 have determined, or there is a possibility, 10 through what an individual is saying, that they 11 2 is, that person might not admit it, and we 3 might not have anything to s to put them on 4 suicide watch, so we just put them on what we 5 call psychological observation. 16 Ee : And now, it was my 7 understanding -- 8 WN: (Indiscernible *00:41:11). 9 ee : -- it’s basically the same thing, aside from what the inmate is clothe fr) co ie] a wu a) ie] 21 allowed to if) 24 unit, same room, same -- EFTA00058923

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 N ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) w Ee : -- same procedures? ee : Okay. The one thing that I’ve learned more recently is, though, during psychological observation, or I guess I should a fa sk for them. During suicide watch, as well as psychological observation, is the inmate allowed to have attorney visits? a : If they are on that watch, no. ee : What about during psychological observation? a: I think it would be the same thing, that they are not allowed to have. And I'm not sure. Don’t quote me to it. Because typically, when they are on that, we don’t have it. a : Okay. Do you recall if either yourself or anyone at the institution was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or Epstein’s attorneys, asking that he be removed from either psychological observation or suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? a: They will always call. I mean, they would. There was always a number EFTA00058924

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 subject, whether it was to place him in general 2 population. So, I don’t, you know, recall -. 3 ee : Do you remember ever 4 being called by a judge? 5 ae: No, I don’t. I don’t recall. 8 ee: Speaking with a judge. oO 9 ee : All right. Because that 10 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 11 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 2 from one or the other. 3 a: No. Judges wouldn’t 4 typically call for that. 15 ee : But the attorneys 16 frequently would? 7 ee: Yeah, frequently, they 8 would, you know, call our legal department, 9 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 20 population. Why is he, you know, being housed 21 here? And just not him, if there was 22 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 23 type of requests you get from the attorney. 24 es : Okay. And do you know if 25 those attorneys were made, though, when he was EFTA00058925

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LIMITED 1 oO ~] ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 56 on either suicide watch or a : I don’t recall that. ee : You don’t recall. That’s fine. Ee : Do you know - I know you said that, and think that inmates typically could - but do you know if Mr. Ep n visited with his attorneys during that time, betw t know -- (Indiscernible a] c wn then he would not have been -- No. I don’t believe so. No problem. again. Oh, do EFTA00058926

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 57 file that accordingly. This one to that first initial timeline, been a little initial email from you, it looks like it’s a ops. “The logbook shows he was released on July 30th. He had an attorney visit, was, “The timeline we Where did we get that was this just a: I think that was a typo. you mind initial and datin« Well, this What’s that? About being on psyc and EFTA00058927

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LIMITED oO wo ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL USE wi oo ting with that’s something a conflicting actually did have attorne time. And we EFTA00058928

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE uw wo 1 that’s why I was wondering if you would be able 2 to clear that up at yu’ re not -- Wo i a 3 a w oO 2 Oo 7 Ee : -- he wouldn’t have? 8 ee: Yeah. Typically, if you are 9 on that, you’re not going to have an attorney 10 visit. 11 ee : And just talking to 2 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 3 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 4 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 15 that right. But do you think that maybe they 16 were mistaken? 7 ee: I'm just going from my 8 experience, like any other of the inmates that 9 we’ve had on suicide watch have not gone to an 20 attorney visit. 21 ee : Okay. Now, this, 22 speaking of psy s the next point. 23 Let me just make sure that all the information 24 is on that incident. So, as far as 25 Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is -. EFTA00058929

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 60 How do you think it’s -? 30, did you a) any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as Epstein’s cellmate? And how was selection made? ee : So, we weren’t able to get a whole lot of people, you know, think that how we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was a white male. hulking bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and frame. So, we said that would have been an appropriate cellmate for him. And who made ti! To put them together? EFTA00058930

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 61 7) s it in coordination with both captain, as well as Everyone - yeah - would you know, I, obvio sent it up the chain, to say, look who we’re going to make him his cellmate, and what was MS: - talking with the ection was that he brought Q fu ue] rt wu poe 5 a poe 7) kK 0] Q ie) be the three names, you discussed it with || recall it to be that way, or do you recall it a: Which -? Well, are we talking about Tartaglione? ee : Oh, did that happen with EFTA00058931

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE fo) Nh 1 to see the names. So, I don’t know who they 2 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 3 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 4 the two inmates to the director’s office. 5 Kevin Pistro (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And 6 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 7 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 8 about as far as if we had to choose between who 9 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 10 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 11 -- 2 ME «© 2 in Reyes? 3 a: -- Reyes, that Reyes would 4 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 15 find anybody. 7 ee: And then, they went up, and 8 then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes. 9 ee : Okay. Reyes was when 20 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 21 selection, but for -- 22 a : Tartaglione. 23 | tsti‘iés*@s -- Tartaglione, that was No > het is) c a I mean, it was in ine) w EFTA00058932

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, the powers that be that this is who we’re going to be, and it came back and said, you know, we’re good for that. ee: Okay. Do you know what Tartaglione was in for? a: He had - I know it was a big drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible *00:48:45) -- MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. HI: «Some kind of narcotics. So, he - and then, I don’t - and I recall there was murder involved, too. MR. HAYES: Yeah. ae: But he was a high-profile case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there that were trying to get in there, but you know, they would have probably harmed him. I had another pedophile in there, and everybody in the unit, they know who’s in the unit, I'm not taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we can't just arbitrarily force another inmate EFTA00058933

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was, you know, the best -- MR. HAYES: The other inmates -- ee: -- inmates -. MR. HAYES: -- would not accept Epstein, nor would not accept a pedophile. a : They weren’t going to -. They just weren’t going to stab Epstein * 00:4 wo 22 wo ). I don’t know the reasons. But I mean, I can’t make the dec right, I'm going to force you to take this, and then something happens to him, and then -. Ee : So, someone actually spoke with Tartaglione and he said he was willing to do it? a: And I'm not sure on there - who spoke to him, but I don’t know. :oay. a : It might have been. But I know we said we were going to put him in, and this is, this is what -. And he didn't have | tsti‘iés*@s Okay. And if someone did speak with him, who would that have been? Would that have been? EFTA00058934

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fee) © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE It might (Indi but - you k make a know, in putting there, you know, sit down and I unit -- to go in there, ok the No. that, 7, I'mn drug dealer in there with h typically, another high-pro appropriate. believe that try to harm Epstein o Again, I we’ consult hav now, typically, you move, and we’re re not going to, with an inmate, mean —— who is appropriate ot going to put a im. So, you know, file inmate we Tartagli n July 23 can't speculate on Just because - EFTA00058935

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LIMITED 7 ive) oO co | tti‘aiézél; -- it would be pure a: Yeah. I don’t want to Now, ent from other people has Ee : -- Tartaglione was trying ee : -- and that he had every rld not to m Epstein. And EFTA00058936

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 MR. HAYES: Tartaglione wasn’t in the cel 2 at the time. ies) wo 1°] | ' wi \ \ > @ a w t oO fay @ \ \ Oo) a c A K 1] n wz oO = wu wn oO a | | 8 MR. HAYES: -- yeah, right. 9 a : Yeah. So, here’s how I'm 10 going to put this. As far as Tartaglione, we 11 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn’t 2 a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you 3 know, with a cellphone. You know, making 4 calls, you know, and circumventing his case, 15 and whatever. But so, I don’t, I can't 16 speculate on, ou know, whether he would do 7 something, or he wouldn’t do mething. So, 8 that was, you know, my dealings with 9 Tartaglione, when I was aware of him. Plus, 20 you know, his case. 21 : oon. 22 a : And the request from his 23 attorneys. 25 Epstein’s time on suicide watch and EFTA00058937

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LIMITED ho ho No No iN ies) w fos) wo fea] co © iat) OFFICIAL USE 6 hological observation, was he placed back to show what it is that we have drinking -- send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide attempt. Thanks.” fF said, “I need this A wanted this? EFTA00058938

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LIMITED 1 oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 69 clinical notes. Why would you know? ee : -- they sent from whe EFTA00058939

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE 70 8th, 2019. It’s any encounter you with him. Any medical -- s with him. with him? fe) H Fh B + ifs) not in the BE notes, and that, didn't ha any. So, you would assume that -- there wouldn’t be? know 1 mind initialing? And EFTA00058940

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 why that would be? ee: Hold on. If an inmate is cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them about it - but most inmates didn't, once you are cleared off of suicide watch, they have other things that they do. You can come down and they give you some (Indiscernible *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they have other types of therapy, but it doesn't necessarily have to be entered in as a medical encounter. ee : Okay. So, this is, so, psychology could have been still meeting with them, just not noted as a medical encounter? a : Yeah. You - I mean - you see them, and you can just, like, if you have patients, you will go, how is everything going? You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a medical encounter. ee : Okay. So, your involvement with this, being that he came off of psychological observation on July 30th, should psychology had interacted with him more in that type of setting, where they would have EFTA00058941

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ie) LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oO 1 been writing clinical not s? Or do you -- he ies) w investigation, it was inconclusive he committed, you know, tried to -- Sure. a : -- attempted to commit 10 suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but fos) wo saying, no, I 13 it. 14 No. I what 15 16 30th was the day that 17 cleared him to go -- Mm-hmm. t oo -- do you think that they t ie) continued at least checking with N N o be b ct J 1) ba] ue} R oO o nt] oO pb K Q I on bet iN Ww 3 ‘i ul] = oa o 3 | | EFTA00058942

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 73 You know, s him in other parts of the institution. So would h them. But there were probably encounters with him. yrdinator for the BOP. scheduling of the for inmate EFTA00058943

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 74 the ee So, do you know if that was ever completed? The actual suicide ee: They might have, but nobody ee : Okay. They didn't talk Fair enough. And then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks like a tem ue} i w rt oO “(Indiscernible prevention program, suicide reconstruction materials.” ae: Mm-hmm. Ee : Would have you been the that would have gathered these things for Typically, when this happer this comes from, do them, I would make contact with someone in the institution, to get it. EFTA00058944

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LIMITED No No No No i) ies) w wo oO co ite) OFFICIAL USE w in gather will be helpful.” So, would pr someone? routinely take ing tt documents, appreciate i ct you would and s far as you show up and institution. EFTA00058945

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE institution. from the institution? August 12th? a : I was no longer at the MCC. That’s what I was EFTA00058946

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 park. ies) instance, and you were not really involved 4 after that, then? w Lam | > fw rt w fs b ct oe Oo BF ron be) o fC j c n rt ty] wu he oO No, I had to park a vehicle, i=) because I had to -. I had the government 1 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so I 2 parked there, and took the train out, ive) (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 4 ae : I think when we started, and 5 | asked when you started at the regional fea] office, I think you mentioned 2020. 7 ee : So, the problem is, and he 8 was talking about job title. My job title 9 still remained the same. 20 22 and it wasn’t removed until 20 No ox) Oo ~ u tet Well, now, but as of 24 August 12th, started reporting to the 25 region? EFTA00058947

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LIMITED ive) oO wo fea] oo 19 t rar ho No OFFICIAL USE 78 had an interview at the U.S. And then, ae : All right. So, if you don’t mind, just initialing and dating that. ee : We’ll get that out of So, this looks like this answers our EFTA00058948

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LIMITED OFFIC K ‘FYI, on oO wo oO 7, meaning oo cellmate at the i) m i) p Qo w 24 time, with whom I him int did not report any medical, or any mental EFTA00058949

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal thoughts or intention. He was asking the writer to go to general population and was making requests for various leads he had at the time. He wanted social calls without them being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he had left in the suicide watch area. His mood was not depressed or anxious. There were no signs of stress. He had planned on meeting with his attorneys to work on his legal situation.” So, there is that. And then, there is also, I don't know if this was attached. i. I don’t know how this was printed, but it also looks like all the contacts. It says, “15 contacts in one month. Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. And after the -”. It does say that there was a contact that looks like, on the 3lst. MR. HAYES: What does he mean by “contact”? ee : A psychology contact. MR. HAYES: Okay. ee: And then, here’s one, 8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was -- EFTA00058950

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 es Do you know? 4 Segregation review. 5 MR. HAYES: Oh. 81 -- being conducted. What S a seg group. 9 form. Suicidal tendencies.” 10 a: No. That must be a 11 psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. 2 If it SRA, that must be for SHU. 3 Ee : Okay. And it says, “On 4 August lst, 2019, he denied any suicidality, 15 friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportiv 16 Jewish against his religion, still denied 7 knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when 8 he was discovered with a string loosely tied 9 around his neck. Said his incident report for 20 self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is 21 talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in 22 SHU, he li for fighting this case and going 23 back to his normal life.” And again, it say 24 that 8/8/ 2019 was with Dr. a. what I just 25 -- EFTA00058951

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo So, I gu oO Ww fos) ran oO ie) fa) pa io ss they did (Indiscernible 4 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible Ww * rary oO N 6 ae: Yeah. You don’t have to fos) So, yeah, then maybe wo those weren’t required. the bottom on this one? nN ion) i a 3 a 4 ae : That wasn’t attached to the 5 email. That was just a separate document. c fo) c Za rt as y ct N w un oO ue} wu H wu ct oO sychology? All And this is the last fee) ue] 9 one to cover what This was an 20 email that was sent out by a Darlene Imeri. “Suicide ch observation at 12:30 p.m., and it c 23 says, “Inmate Epstein is being taken off of 24 psych observation and needs to housed with an 25 appropriate cellmat EFTA00058952

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 2 ee : Darlene, and it just everyone who is attached to this sent, Ww n mw ke 1) 4 this was sent to. a w 3 1 H Dp o § a this something that 7 they normally do, after someone comes off of 8 psych observation or suicide watch? Do they 9 Or was it a special 10 11 s typical. 2 s typical? 3 Because you h 4 to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, 5 everyone know, you know, the person is coming 16 off. And where to house them. Some go back to 7 their units. In his case, he was going back to 8 the Special Housing Unit. 9 ee : Okay. Great. Do you 20 mind just initial and dating that? And that 21 was - is it their job to determine if a 22 cellmate has to be housed with another 23 cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be ho 24 with another inmate. 25 ee : Well, typically, I mean, EFTA00058953

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B4 w ~] oO 10 11 ive) it’s just - if there’s nothing in policy that sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional setting, if somebody has been on, you know, attempted suicide, or attempted to self- mutilation, you usually put them in with someone. Ee : Okay. So, were you or your staff involved with the decision to have Epstein removed from suicide watch or psychological observation? Ee: Psychology makes the determination that the individual is, you know, no longer suicidal. This is for any inmate. ae: Is no longer suicidal. And there is no reason for him to be on suicide watch. So, they either get released wherever they came from, whether it was the general population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. Hs: §= So, on background on that. So, one of the individuals in psychology department -- es : -- who would meet with Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, Mm-hmm. EFTA00058954

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LIMITED wu if] ies) w oO fos) ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE oo wi one of the steps down with Dr. a. as well Mm-hmm. And I was informed that kind of pretty routine, that that is conducted in coordination with executive staff That is. so, that’s where I 'm standing -- i) pw =] f ts) ifs Cc oO un rt og wu rt on though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes from, e watch to p observation, tion back to a unit? Is that their call, or can, does the or anyone in the BOP, outside on ee : Psychology are the subject EFTA00058955

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 8 fe 7) matter experts. They are the doctor release someone off of suicide watch. I can't - if an individual is on suicide watch - I can't turn around and come in there, ands take him off. fF I'm not a trained Now, I can put somebody on there. But then, you know, after h¢ ar a medical reason, as Ee : So, in that interview with that individual, they, decision cussed with i PY and that individual concurred with that decision. If didn't concur, though, would that matter a : What do you mean, if the i didn't concur with it? ee : I mean, I don’t want to use EFTA00058956

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LIMITED No No No ho ies) w oO fos) wo ive) fea] oo iat) w OFFICIAL ” the word “court oO as a telling, but they’re USE 8 ~ they’ re keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. Now, let’s say I come in and interject and say, no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning for putting him on there? Mm-hmm. have to degree do I justify keeping an individual on suicide watch? Because now, it could go the other way. I decide to turn around and do something like that, I would be having a conversation with you about something else. it more to keep H oO a oO oO c n fu ue] re) 5 Hb n o 2 -- if anything else? y, this is the and saying, h mo we’re removing an individual, and we forward. I mean, is) viously, we will EFTA00058957

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 38 MR. HAYES: Guys, I want to go for a o ie) he (e) c wu 3 ct c wn ct 13) continue or wait? MR. HAYES: No, just Oh, don’t contir y-. I'm going to It is currently entitled matter off the record and back on the r Ee : All right. The recorder is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, cord). EFTA00058958

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo ite) 1 that we discussed was that psychology said that 2 Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this 3 is where we talked a little bit about it. It 4 sounded like the decision to have Efrain Reyes laced as Epstein’s cellmate was actually made wi uel oO at higher level than yourself? wu 8 Ee : Okay. And who made that wo decision? 10 a: I don’t know. Listen. I 11 know, I sent it to my supervis Actually, 2 the two inmates that, that would kind of 3 figured out there might be a cellmate, we sent 4 those names to the director’s office. And it was Kevin Pistro was t oO 7 the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss 8 told me that they had to run it up to the 9 department. So, I don't know who was spoken to 20 in the department. And it got back, and my 21 boss said that, too, you know, that’s a good 22 choice. 23 Okay. He =] oh a a wu ct wo EFTA00058959

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) again ee : Okay. Great. But it was based upon a list that you provided? ae: Yeah. There were some names. Because I - fast forward - I got a call, and we were gearing towards getting him out to general population. ee : Oh, so, you wanted Epstein to actually be in general pop? Ee: I didn't want -. That’s what typically happens. You know -- Ee: -- you don’t want an inmate in segregation. Most of them, we’ve had a lot of high-profile individuals that come in the institution. You know, we do our intelligence gathering, to see, okay, what would be an appropriate unit for them to be in? And we place them. And then, we monitor them. If, you know, and that is how we move them into general population. I get a call saying, hold up on that. He needs to stay where he’s at. es : And who called you? MR. HAYES: Did he qualify as a pedophile? EFTA00058960

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 ive) oO wo ive) 15 that’s when I had to fea] oo EFTA00058961

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 92 population. cha. So, back, you are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- a : Yeah, we’re talki Ee : -- that timeframe. a : -- the whole thing, and then, even, 1g about -- know, coming servations when he got in, to get him into general population. a : I mean, we had the attorne contacting our legal, why can't he be in general population? this would be a good time to talk about this. wWQ Being that it was ultimately decided that he go EFTA00058962

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs inmates? ee: So, here’s the problems with Ten South. It’s the terrorist unit, and there’s SAMS things in there. The amount of attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn’t have those attorneys coming up to that unit every day, and, you know, breaching the security of it, and then, tying up the movement in there, because when an attorney comes in there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it’s planned, and they are in there. Epstein’s attorneys were coming in early in the morning, and weren’t leaving until late at night. And it was about four or five of them. So -- MR. HAYES: And guess who’s paying his bill? ae: -- right. That’s not an appropriate unit, and that’s not what that unit is for. ee : Now, what about, like, if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels that weren’t terrorists, how did they deal with that, or did they have attorneys visiting them EFTA00058963

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 or no? 2 ee: They did, but it wasn’t to 3 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 4 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 5 couple hours, they left. As it got close to 6 trial, then they would - you would see them 7 more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one the 8 attorneys, they were in there from the 9 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 10 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 11 the rooms. ive) 15 he was placed in Nine South was because of the 16 attorney ? 7 ee: Well, not the attorney 8 visits, but that is the SAMS unit. 20 HS: 8d he’s inmate. 21 And then -. 22 MR. HAYES: What’s a 23 ee: Special Administrative 24 Measures. That means, you know, strict 25 communication. And there’s a lot that goes on EFTA00058964

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE ie wi with that unit. So, he wasn’t appropriate to be up there. other high-profile inmate Chapo, and who were some of the people that were in there? Meaning, the ee : Well, you had Schulte, but on him. -. There was a few -- he was in for espionage, and had a So, he -- a : -- he had -. No. His status was based on, and I know there was (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his appropriate place to place him. EFTA00058965

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE wo a was in general placed on him by his MR. HAYES: What was El Chapo like? Ee: Just like any other inmate. a: Polite. You know, no uld have, but EFTA00058966

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo © iat) OFFICIAL USE 97 would have had to have, some I’m putting him up And there would have been push back from his attorr doesn't even have the ability to do that. That because I would | tsti‘iés*@s Now - and this is a total Monday morning quarterback -- EFTA00058967

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 ould have been in Ten ir thoughts on that? 5 HS: «St chink he was appropriately oO So, Nine South -- Oo oo during that time? Where? 24 El Chapo had left. I 25 the call with p in EFTA00058968

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] wo i=) 11 to Brooklyn. He was there. MR. HAYES: What was his name? ee: I forget. MR. HAYES: What did he do? What was he in there for? ae: That’s the one that killed the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran -- MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah. a : -- the vehicle into them. MR. HAYES: Yeah, and then the guy kicked the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy -- MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). Ee: He was there. I remember Schulte. There was another guy that was, it had something to do with Osama Bin Laden. MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. ae: Who else? We had a younger terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it was -. They were all terrorists in, on espionage charges. GS: S81 right. So, this is along what we were just discussing. It says is from an a. who’s just a supervisory staff attorney. that, thi 3) EFTA00058969

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LIMITED Ww wo 3 23 OFFICIAL for? so, whom USE 100 kind of, like, New York? ME: 81) ight. 9, primarily in relation to his to water in M-A-R-I-E-L. J-L-O-N. “With in the late morning, had EFTA00058970

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo wo No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 101 fo asked, as an aside, whether we would consider housing him in the cadre.” What is the cadre? ME: cadre i that low level? WS: tts Like our lower security wo the camp. H o trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial inmates together. Okay. It sed we could not,” since he was a pre-trial a : “Later that day, but prior to 1:00, cl fe) se out meeting, I spoke to attorney [J] PNNMMMMJ on the phone. He had asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone in the SHU, to which I replied that we could not, based on his prior suicide ” MR. HAYES: It’s just, I’ve never heard of EFTA00058971

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 2 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 3 ee: Yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: Since they’re probably 5 charging him $2,000 an hour. 6 ee : “He acknowledged that he 7 understood. To my recollection, neither 8 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 9 watch or psychological observation during 10 sterday’s conversation. Please let me know 11 if you need any further information.” Now, was 2 this just a request to any contact that he had 3 with his attorney 4 Ee: He was just keeping me 15 informed because the attorneys were calling 16 every day, with different types of requests. 7 Ee : But this was the day, 8 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 9 would -- 21 ee : -- he’s talking about 22 context, just literally the previous day -- Right. -- that he was looking No rs 25 for different housing type arrangements. EFTA00058972

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 2 | tti‘aiézél; But all right. If -. 3 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phon oO 8 our question is} un wu ke i) = ct A WwW Ee : So, it looks like July 14 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And (Indiscernible F fos) | | 22 it is, because, 23 that was in the EFTA00058973

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 3) S: Yeah. I'm looking at the s Christ. n tack, and I'm sitting here, just Je oO 8 little bit wo about, 10 tom 13 you wo at 15 that -- 2019. 17 ee : -- was Friday. Friday, I t o k co w & re) Fh rh ie) 20 10th, 2019? EFTA00058974

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 2 ee : No. I had to respond, if suicide was August 10th -- -- yeah, I had to respond if WwW ct J i ish rT] ke 0 Fh ct a Oo wi 7 but you 8 i] scheduled to This is just in here, in ive) 17 Ee : And the reason I'm using these were literally sent on t fee) ct J i) n 1) bh it) oa oO Q nl] c ifs) i) So, I know that we can 21 ES: Moho. 22 Ee : -- based upon being so riday, August 9th. 24 It’s 25 this EFTA00058975

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LIMITED ive) w oO wo 3 23 OFFICIAL USE 106 who wa . This isa was, basically I think, inv Epstein during that date? - How many rosters would the aside from correctional? D wouldn't do A their staff wu K © if are working at. that show where everyone is working at. But not, like, the correctional officer roster. I'm going to just initial and date. I'm going to EFTA00058976

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need to reference it, and again, it’s just if we ies) need to look at who was working, and what 4 position -- There’s two on there. 6 ME: -- ee what. Yes, wi 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 8 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 9 actually was not - the August 10th one - was i=) not attached to your email. Right? 11 a : Yeah. You are right. 2 ee : So, the August 9th one but the August 10th wasn’t. A Veah Yeah. Ww fw 103) w ct ct ial] Q a oO oh t wi f foal ct wv a] ct Fh K Oo 3 i} i} -- just for full oo 9 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 20 August 9th one was 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to ha 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 24 this requirement? 25 ee : That they were notified? EFTA00058977

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 2 or Mrs. ies) n is required to that we reviewed. w a fw 0 wu Q oO b bh 3 mw rt @ 4 D @ 2) =] oO 7 Ee : Who was required to make ff that is working in the SHU is fos) n is H o ct > iy rt n ct i) 9 aware of that requirement? 10 a: Well, the captain it 1 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 2 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, ive) if th oO y are required a cellmate -- 5 ae: -- that, you know, that he - 16 are to require cellmate, if somebody 7 leaves or goes out Now, someone such as an oo 9 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 prior, should all staff know that that person 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? No ox) In the Special Housing Unit, 24 body working in there would know that he was 25 supposed to hav cellmate. EFTA00058978

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 109 Ee : Do you believe that there was anybody - especially anybody that’s got a) quarterly bit of post there -- ee: Mm-hmm. He: | but anybody that’s working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do you believe that there could be a reason why would we didn't know he was suppos think that would be Ph staf ie) c s my on rt J D " that usually work up there, were up there. It should be, it should been annotated on his - what do you call it? - 292. ee : No. Not the hot list. mean, oh, the 292. You’ re talking about the ee : The SHU file. It should be annotated on the SHU file because, when you come in, you have to annotate on there his EFTA00058979

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 110 meal i) io) 0) , Gid he eat, the medical rounds. So, it would have been on there, it would have been on en there, too. So. ee : Would it have also been MR. HAYES: Guys. I need an interpreter. MR. HAYES: What does list mean? a: -- to watch out for. Yeah. Medical. Okay. MR. HAYES: Seizures. You know, stuff like that? es : So, point being is, do you think that, if any staff that is working in EFTA00058980

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Rey -- in the morning of k i) if) b i] Hh rt I \ ) ies) 4 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- Mm-hmm. wi Mm-hmm. fos) 9 ee : SHU staff that is working 10 in there at that time, he’s 24 hours basically 1 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate 2 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 3 for them to say that we didn't know he was 5 ae: No, because they did know, I - from what I understand - someone f foal oO oO QO fu c un oO wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that oo they knew. 9 ee : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 20 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 21 MR. HAYES: One other question. I want to 22 open a box. 24 MR. HAYES: That means I'm going to slutely. 25 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going EFTA00058981

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE were talking situation of something. I thought hetical Ee : I guess we should wai loudly, gain. If we wu Q will be able to hear our he answer wa it) 112 you t All right. We’re going EFTA00058982

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 a : I don't know if that was somebody. a : There might be clients in the ies) 5 Oh. 6 Huh? fos) 9 Then we will wait. 10 wasn’t kidding about the Oh. ive) MR. HAYES: You know why I got this? This 14 movie called Gangs of New York. 17 and the lead actress was a woman named t oO =) p- tT] N MR. HAYES: And I had a wild t oO 21 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 22 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife in the show, and I said, I 24 want you to make me an exact duplicate. 25 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is EFTA00058983

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 w ~] ive) | tti‘aiézél; That’s super cool. more questions before we get into these documents. Were any plans made on how to Hh Hh address this situation for if Reyes was removed as Epstein’s cellmate? Like, if he -. Because I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. (Indiscernible *01:26:13). a: No. I mean, the plan would have been, you know, we would have assessed it, because usually, you get ahead of time, we would have just said, okay, when is -? When Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, then before he was placed back in that cell, an assessment would have been made. ee : Okay. Now, what is your understanding of what happened with inmate Reyes on August 93th, 2019? a : When I got back after the fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him from the institution. EFTA00058984

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 of people we’ve talked to thought he went to 2 court, and that at court, it was determined he ies) wasn’t coming back. Had you heard that? : That’s what I heard, too. I w had heard he was going to court. And then, I 6 guess word got back that he wasn’t coming back. 7 That’s what I heard. So, I 8 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 9 MR. HAYES: It’s either a good day in 10 court, or a bad day in court. 1 Ee: Yeah. I never got the actual story because I was, I was removed. nN again, what Wa c ioe i) he Oe] =] oF \ Belongings. But I don’t know, and I fea] oo 9 don’t know if people will say that he left, and went and got him from the office. h- is] I I 23 Yeah 24 es : -- one of those documents 25 that says -- EFTA00058985

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LIMITED oO Oo OFFICIAL USE 116 With inmate as And it sumentation I have in my here, it talks about all the you know, -- things. Then down imentation re: EFTA00058986

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 117 Ee : So, would it be at all- like, a ee : -- would that be what or EFTA00058987

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE 118 something, or whatever -? ee : I think, and I'm speculating now, it was probably the court list, and it him off to court. -- list. I don’t. I don’t with it. Now -- bh ct fu Hh rt om ial ct a im ct time. EFTA00058988

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 ; But -- ies) : -- but that’s what would 4 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to w produce Re 6 ae: No. Not nece 7 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call fs] sarily. What fos) i= we] rt 12] U = a and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He 9 has court. Or he’s being released. So, there 10 wouldn’t have been a document sent up. 1 MES: so,, everyone that we 2 talked to said R&D we created this 3 document. 4 5 16 8 9 this court production list that you sent out 20 emails to -. sent in the 22 23 not something 24 It’s 25 print out -- EFTA00058989

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) w ~] different, the ops PY has one, every housing unit has one. Internal goes around and collects people, based upon it or something. I think. And then -- Ee : -- then they basically destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing is maintained in the system. They just use a template, and create a new one for every day. So, that must have been the early court movement. So, I was under the impression that he was, he left in the afternoon. So, when typically in the afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, we got one that’s leaving. So, I assumed he had left that afternoon. ee : Okay. So, is it, then, are you not - then to answer that question - are you not sure exactly what she’s referring to when she “court documentation regarding WAB”? a: Like, the way you explained it, then that means they were talking about EFTA00058990

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE morning courts. 121 -- I'm just talking about y, what Do WAB, With Mm-hmm. know? You could help -- EFTA00058991

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LIMITED oO ive) wi oO ~] oo OFFICIAL USE 22 this. So, this is an email that was The following medication with the medical summary. EFTA00058992

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LIMITED oO oO oo 95 OFFIC what kind of hat’s Efrain We're not -. am curious. It’s not -- don’t know? think it’s is email that 2019, at prisoner sch EFTA00058993

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 0) R “TR, And transfer wi right here, What I was told, that from the M to sferring Is that -- third - for - on the third page, it shows a7] EFTA00058994

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 2 | tti‘aiézél; So, this was 8:38 a.m. 3 He’s keyed out of our system. We got these two 4 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 5 he’s being transferred. 6 MR. HAYES: So, wait. Let me get this 7 clear. He’s being transferred to what place to 8 what place? wo From the MCC to GEO. 10 MR. HAYES: And what is GEO? 11 Ee: A contract facili 2 MR. HAYES: And what is a contract 3 facility? 15 MR. HAYES: Okay. And you had nothing to 16 do with -? In other words, somebody else 7 decides to go from one place to another -- 9 MR. HAYES: -- you (Indiscernible 20 *01:33:11). Okay. 21 ee : The Marshals -. 22 MR. HAYES: And would that be the judge or 23 the Marshals? 24 ae: The Marshals, I guess. The 25 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but EFTA00058995

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LIMITED oO wo ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 126 Prosecutors. Marshals. ordination, make here is are talking From the Marshal Service August 9th, at that now tell EFTA00058996

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 127 documentation lains that to have him go do you think is ocumentation? a : I guess it must be all of we’re actually Ee: That’s, I think, that’s what meaning, da transferred sed specifically EFTA00058997

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ite) WwW oo OFFICIAL USE 128 CE: eben. uld h known who in the SHU Efrain Rey HS: Because he was Epstein’s -, and as late Epstein getting a so, what this, you more EFTA00058998

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 Ee : -- on his backtrack. oO wo ive) fea] oo inmate Eps wo arrival from 20 his attorn -” Now, what this do 25 to R&D -- EFTA00058999

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 130 a : Mm-hmm. a : Mm-hmm. ee : Spoke with and stated to Mr. - I think coming back. And with all that information, being working in the SHU, going on. reason why I want to talk t EFTA00059000

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 131 This is kind of our oing into that, but t Ee : -- before I answer. What or two da One day before Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both him at HE: 9 the SHU OIC walks him down, to R&D -- ie] oO | i) KK o) wu rt b e) 3 z. ct om tf ue] n rt i) bP =] wu =] on vs) 0) het i) wn re going to get you a new cellmate. - WAB means what? EFTA00059001

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 Ee : With All Belongings, 2 neans they’re not coming back. 3 MR. HAYES: But Epstein is not coming 4 back? oO w x Pp Ty un Qo 2 oO oO bh t =] iit) rt (D wo 10 MR. HAYES: So, if you 11 investigating, somebody 2 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 3 conversation, or present during that 4 conversation, is Epstein? 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein knows that 7 he’s not going to have a cellmate for the 8 immediate future? 9 ee : No. Epstein is going to 20 attorney conference. So, he’s going to be -- 21 MR. HAYES: No, no, but I'm saying -- No N -- in attorney conference 23 until about 7:00 p.m.. 24 MR. HAYES: -- that Epstein knows that, 25 over the next, say, 24 hours, he’s not going to EFTA00059002

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) Ww ios) have a cellee. tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein would know that he hasn’t - going to have a cellmate. Ee : Yeah, yeah. So, this isn’t part of the theory. What my question to your client is, what should have happened based upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The contact with the Marshal Service, telling him that he’s being transferred. The fact that R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, and R&D actually logged him out of our system. What should have happened? ee: So, what should have happened was, this information should have been passed up to the supervisors. ER: 8 what point? ae: See, with the, this information coming in, as far as, you know, when R&D -- ee : -- typically, it would come EFTA00059003

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 134 up to the ial Housing Unit. to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the notif lieutenants And we do have a cap you should So, captain know, and aptain would push it up uld have to come going to on who we EFTA00059004

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LIMITED oO Oo K D a ~ ny] im be 2) a uy i] ai D N OFFICIAL USE 135 that he was at 2>z knows that -. Sorry, did Mm-hmm. But I think he’s at might not a 1) this information who was Cannata (Phonetic EFTA00059005

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LIMITED ho ho No No i) ies) w fos) wo co its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 13 CE: eben. Lo oO ee : With that knowledge, is that a reason that he think that he went to court, and might be coming a: I can't interpret what his on n re go out to court and come back. So, I don't know. I The point being he EFTA00059006

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFIC -- he didn't go to understanding, in your if an inmate is listed Mm-hmm. -- With All Belongings -- Yeah. -- what is Are they coming back or are its) that a unique situation, EFTA00059007

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo No N No Wa ho OFFICIAL USE 1 Wo o o. I wouldn't say. I robably unique. But gone. a Oo the operations see somebody listed as WAB, gone, and not coming back? re talking off the document. Should have. But then, I don't know what document they read. So, I don't want to what, you know, was it, send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't know what document. But I this document, that c concern, it doesn't sound like what you were saying is, a. who was the OIC at the time, should have he notified the ops Nhoever is - H there should have notified the operations a. hey, Reyes left, and -- MR. HAYES: He needs a cellmate. ae: -- he needs a cellmate, would it fall EFTA00059008

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 3 here’s the other checks and balance. So, what 4 about the Oo) wo 11 ee : -- yeah. On his own same, fF ive) O19 O =a | | Oo) co And that cellmate would now, EFTA00059009

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 140 it. But the information is passed onto each other. You know, when you And they are supposed to be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would k notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. Had zero inmates in it. And that’s Uh-huh. I mean, that’s how it would have made, and when that got pushed up, we would have said, okay, we would have to formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, for Epstein? And I apologize to ask this because, but, like, so, on each shift would be the OIC, that would be responsible for that. So, for instance, would | be on the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he EFTA00059010

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 would be the one to responsible to provide the 2 ae. but then, the following shift, 3 would it be -- 5 ee : -- the next OIC -- 6 ae: -- right. 7 Ee : -- or would also the 8 people that are working in that unit, the other 9 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 10 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 11 OIC is really the person making that 2 notification. 3 a: Everybody has a 4 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. I 15 mean —— 7 ee: -- I might be the OIC, but I 8 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 9 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 20 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 21 assigned to that post, and they’re just filling 22 in for somebody that, the regular person that’s 23 up there. And then, I have the regular people 24 working up there, who are familiar with what’s 25 going on. So, it’s kind of everyone’s EFTA00059011

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) wo i=) 3 OFFICIAL USE 142 A responsibility. U veryone kind of equally responsible, then, for thi That was working there and didn't pass the information to, as far as what was going on that day, who was working up there. What not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not n. However, we do have records that the ivities lieutenant at least visited -- fu Q cr EFTA00059012

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 nt. 2 other 3 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 4 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 5 is a very bu unit. fon) K oO w ar 8 showers You’re giving out recreation. 9 doing a whole lot of stuff. 10 running around all day, and, 11 sometimes things happen. 2 ee : Understood. But in this 3 case, wasn’t Epstein at your most high-profile 4 inmate? At that time. 5 ae: I mean, besides my terrorist that I had up there on Ten South. 7 Ee : Well, I guess, at least c fo) } ] | iT] ct oO i Les] rt ~ 0] Zz k =] 0] wn ie} Pt ct a profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 21 ee : Is it, I mean, on that he was a high- 22 note, don’t you think that they would have, you 23 know, found it pretty important to notify? 24 Especially they - and I don't know that we 25 brought this today - but there was even signs EFTA00059013

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 cr 1) @ i) 1 up that th ated, saying, “Mandatory 30- ¥ minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God.” Or ive) something, you know, along the lines Not, you 4 know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like w MR. HAYES: Is that right? I mean, I 9 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 1 so, no one that they didn't know. 11 Ee : So, point being, there 12 was, like, signs ive) on this guy fea] t co cr So, point being, with F ° ct ey je 7) ' I 20 Ee : It should have 21 up. 1 25 Ee : -- again, and I know that EFTA00059014

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 = he oO 4 i] KK @ ie] KR fe) > wu o pan he + K i 5 ite] ct Oo i) 0 Cc ny 5 0 a iv) io) B ct wu cr 0) 2 on maybe saying, did 3 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 4 ball here? Knowing, though, that w take a look, the th who the email -- (D 0) 6 ar on ie] | | } 3 wo 11 a : I think Perez is on there. ' Ww H n tg iu) H oO N 2) =] ct Oo a] o 18 one is not even as clear This one 20 22 actually have to go in and look at this 23 prisoner’s schedule report. 24 MR. HAYES: just take a 25 look, just so I is clear There EFTA00059015

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is a prisoner’s schedule. 146 The prisoner's schedule literally means prisoner’s schedule. Well, yeah. So, the prisoner’s schedule report is something like this, but it will tell you that they are either going to, like, transfer, or they are going to go to court. Whereas this other document that was sent to R&D was just specifically about the transfer. MR. HAYES: Okay. that says recreation, But there is nothing personnel care. It’s mostly going to and from court, or leaving the institution. prisoner’s schedule. MR. HAYES: Okay. MR. HAYES: Okay. are scheduled to do. not, like, what their in the institution. MR. HAYES: Right Yeah. Because it’s a Report. So, it’s, like, what they Sorry. Yeah. No. It’s daily schedule is. Like, It’s a U.S. Marshal Service report that is provided to the BOP, so EFTA00059016

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) Nm ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 147 that they know which inmates -- MR. HAYES: Right. and for what reason. -- they need to produce, Okay. Got it. ee : Now, is that correct? Based upon what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and then again, what we know about fT at very least producing, at h rt oO co + knowing he was WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. ee : What should have happened there? Mm-hmm. Like, who, in your opinion here, dropped the ball? was the checks and balance. I think at all levels, it If it went to the lieutenant’s office, somebody should have picked it up. Working in the unit. It should have been passed up to the lieutenant’s office. So, there were a couple of safety nets that could have caught it. dropped the ball? everybody EFTA00059017

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 4 ee : Well, not only the email, 5 but I mean, the email, I can understand if alw oO te) | ! it would be hard to - 13 didn't know. This one, I could 14 sched -- 15 re — 16 18 know what 19 thing, I 2¢ staff I version. -- this is with this. EFTA00059018

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 149 sent with this. This was sent specifically, just that. It’s not a document. That’s the this - R&D is speaking with R&D, produced this list, Mm-hmm. office, all the housing units, which listed you know if they are the lieutenant’s ieutenant’s office, or EFTA00059019

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 bh ct hat’s just based upon the busyness of their 2 day? I wouldn’t ies) Ke oO wv a 4 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 6 ae: -- lieutenant is looking at 7 stuff. I mean, it’s, like, the documents. 8 Ee : No. I mean, but should 9 have they, I guess is the question? 1 are coming through, on who’s This would WwW on o w provided. 5 ee : Internal would go around everybody with this physical paper ft oO fw 3 QoQ ue] 2] Oo bs ion om 7 they apparently 8 the day 9 So, I don't know if 20 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 21 go, they are dropping it off at different 22 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 23 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I 24 guess this probably be the only document -- EFTA00059020

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ~] © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 151 a : -- they tear up. | tti‘aiézél; We are being told, by the lieutenants, as well as -- nd it would all - and it it, and they all, fw would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven’t found that document to show you this is what rring to. But it’s a document they apparently create, which tt rt production list. Are you -- a: The court list. Ee: I’ve heard of the court Ee : But it’s like a -- ee : And it -. a : -- from my understanding, it is an informal document that they are just providing so people that we need to MS): internal, internal officer goes around and drops them off know, every unit, like EFTA00059021

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 152 list. In the morning. Yeah. Right. So, I guess the estion, though, being that they had these court lists, is another one Or is that really just for the ecial Housing Unit? far as the court list, I don’t unders I think they -. You mean as but -- morning of the 9th. was and on the 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and ew for almost 48 hours. What should ha happened, and who didn't do their job? Is really the question. And like I said before, EFTA00059022

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 2 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 3 up to his supervisor. 5 ae: This guy is leaving. But 6 then, okay, let’s say the supe, or whoever is 7 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 8 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 9 needs a cellmate. And notified the PF 10 that he needs a cellmate. 11 ee : And that goes back to my, 2 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have ive) made that notification. 4 Ee: Should have said it. It 15 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 16 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 7 you. It’s everybody’s job up there to say, 8 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is wha 9 we need to do. 20 HE: )9 8c would that be the 21 case for, when he left during the day shift -- 23 | tsti‘iés*@s -- the next shift is the 24 night shift, when he would have - I believe a) 25 during the night shift - he would have come EFTA00059023

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 154 uld have noticed that were doing rounds, they w Reyes wasn’t there in the first place. But also, certainly, when they brought -- stein back. hould have known he was Ee : And would it be the y would same morning shift? That the alone? a : Because if the morning shift is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have c realized he was in there by himself. single shift reported it to the a : Whoever caught it should have, you know, let’s say one shift missed it, the next shift should have picked up and said, you know, called and said, a. we got a EFTA00059024

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 iB r > K tl in r a i) be bh 3 fu ct 0) ies) -- a cellmate. 4 ee : And again, I know we’re w Monday morning quarterback because of the 6 result here, but what is your - as FY of the institution, on fos) wo F Ww my iB a 7 rt the result is t t fe) co * K oO w > 23 called -. I might have 24 Perez, and said 25 working - said, EFTA00059025

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE 156 Now, when you say Perez, talking about Rice, who was the SHU a: who was the operations -. Bec know when I got Who was at. And said, what a: And that’s when I found that gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the day of, when I had to go up to, I think the with them When I speak up to them, and EFTA00059026

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE ee : He had it on him. he was during the interrogation, he pre WN: 0. 2S think I-. I when I first saw it, but I know it. And I don't know if I hadg nt it up to my boss. An iven it to the IG. I forgot. I forge u name, and who was handling the case. sat in th d Carpenter. he - I remember we had told I otten d then, t ts) fag nt] D ere with - he had him that EFTA00059027

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 uw o 1 they knew that they were supposed to -. 2 | tti‘aiézél; So, not including when 3 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 4 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 5 BOP, such as Perez or [RP 7 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 8 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 9 The, you know, the directives were given. What 10 happened? 11 ee : And when you asked what 2 happened, was there a verbal response? 3 a: It was a verbal response. 4 ee : And what did you -? What 15 were you told? 16 a: That they knew he was 7 supposed to -. That fF had passed it on 8 to other individuals about it. 9 ee : Now, do you think that 20 that -. What is your thought process of 21 a. who is the one who actually presented 22 - excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is 23 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior 24 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed 25 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got EFTA00059028

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 159 you think he should information on during a : I think on the ele down to R&D. - rting They Eps ha er, th th - EFTA00059029

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 down to R&D. 3 Because if Monge is internal, internal takes 4 him to court wi its] 6 WN: nc then, if somebody i 7 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 8 it would be SHU staff taking him. oO All right. if Monge i=) is actually providing him to a responsibility, that if he 2 was WAB, to make any notifications? a: I don’t know if internal -. 4 You know, Monge was internal, and I don’t know ive) if he knew, you know, the situation. cally, would it 7 be internal’s job - if they come and collect 8 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 9 control, or the ops a. to say this guy 20 is off our books, or anything, or -? 21 ee : No. Becaus 22 of inmates that move in and out. we have a lot No ox) wn c K @ 24 : So, he wouldn’t be able to 25 keep track of every particular inmate that is EFTA00059030

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 161 going and coming. Basically, ponsibility? a: (Indiscernible *01:57:54). we want to just top of this. Ee : This guy. You know, this and didn't go Ee : Wait, prior to when? a : Oh, no. I knew he -. I EFTA00059031

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LIMITED OFFIC That he was oO te) Well, did any 13 HN: @ ior to October 15 ae : I found out when I came in 16 that morning, 18 like, where is his did not. 24 es : Now, who was ultimately i) Ww oO H EFTA00059032

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 w ~] ive) oy Ww cellmate? directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is i] working decide - passes it up, and then, that ensures, you know, to make sure he has a cellmate. So -. ee: Whoever was working up Hh Ee : Okay. When you say working up there, does that include, like, lieutenants doing FY rounds and things like that? Or -? Ee: Well, yeah, from what transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based on the email that, you know, they knew he was leaving, but as far as when the finality of it was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, something should have went off on somebody to make some notifications. to talk about counts. EFTA00059033

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 164 EE: n-ben. MR. HAYES: Wait, wait. The notification. If someone And the captain would let t and tt would in who -- Right. -- gotcha. Ee: We would have tc 2ilable individuals sit down that are on the unit now, who can house a : Now, what about in this ally weren’t working EFTA00059034

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LIMITED -- who the acting 3 That 5 She would ha o fe 0) ct 0) H 3 Bp 3 wu rt k ) 3 ct O 7 Ee : Who was the acting warden you know? 9 ee : I don’t know if I left =) ct 7 ny] t Q fw ke Q acting. 13 of those two. 14 be one of 15 two. 16 And it wouldn’t 18 No Now, what is cuti like, an AW? NK Ly EFTA00059035

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 166 ee : -- but what, is that cutive mainly to in your functions? some other Mm-hmm. a : just a question. I him about the coming and going -- Mm-hmm. EFTA00059036

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 167 we would no get into counts. @ going on EFTA00059037

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE was down to wu 3 rt a @ H 0) count, the all out of order. a.m., this a : I think that was as you know So, the er the 2 at - what time? - 12:00 16 , count EFTA00059038

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 institutional count. And as a) 0 ti) is i) K i) Ph ie) K 2 12:00 a.m., it said 72. WwW AJ HAYES: By the institution, No. The institution. 6 a : It means the whole. wi fos) 12 13 MR. HAYES: The count. c fos) he 18) c . he 18) = a wu 4 fu =] n = i) K 3 we rel c @ 0] ct bh (2) =] =n fu ct p. n 21 with the institutional count? So, I'm not A answering your question. 23 ee : So, what happens is, on the u call the count, and the different U 25 units call in the count to control center. EFTA00059039

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 170 GS: 8c how do they get that count number? HE: )9= Physically counting an call that into the 4 ao Qa control center get their numb ae: This is what is called an El. Which is a print out of the number of if an instance, for EFTA00059040

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww have to and upon how many ee : And the purpose of that counting inmates, and why are they providing that number to So, the next email is a : eer n oO 5 nt about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on EFTA00059041

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 ay = August 10th. did the count i) change from ive) :00 a.m.? wi t Oo you remember what your 8 one is wo t ive) 1) b fea] oo 19 I don’t remember. 20 on the count, is supposed to then rev 23 documentation. So, I don’t know what happened 24 with the discrepancy. 25 MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn’t really that EFTA00059042

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 6 don’t mind, just initialing 7 we ain to 8 y You 9 didn't find out what actually hap d? 10 a : I don’t recall what the ot) oO oo ause it was just 23 24 really remember 25 n that day EFTA00059043

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 174 Ee : Do you remember learning anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of ts, on the 9th and 10th? accuracy and inaccura ee : Like, if the counts were actually accurate or not. a : I don’t recall that. ct a uy rt did and rounds were not or 10th, If they did rounds or not? Did you find Ww | SHU staff had conducted both minutes as the institution counts on ee : I don't know if it the fact that I was told tt! make their rounds. And I don’t recall if it EFTA00059044

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 175 was, th it in the logbook, that they made rounds, but that in all actualit done. something tt Ee : But you are not super -. know, this, you don’t re J happened or didn't happen? a : That day. Becat pened that weekend, ev } rt ios iv] ie] on the 10th or llth, you didn't hear -- ae: -- I didn't -- | tti‘iésCS*S -- find out? a: -- hear anything about, ll anything about that. didn't at least conduct of their i) rounds and counts? EFTA00059045

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE R ~) an MEN. «that they did not. ee: It was - and I don’t want to use the word that it was just, you know, an assumption, you know, like, because one of them, I had asked to come up and speak with, but it was a. and he wouldn’t come up. Ee : And this was on the 10th in the morning? a : This was on the 10th, when we got him up, because I wanted to speak with him because people were telling me he was distraught. I wanted to make sure he was all right. You know? And he just, he didn't want to come up and talk. What are your thoughts of you know, employee, you do something the spot, and that’s it. But I have never encountered him to do anything, known him not to count, do his job, you know? EFTA00059046

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 177 Ee : What about Ms. Tova Noel? ee : She was new. So, she had gotten know? You are new. You can't do the things shouldn’t be following it. first come in. 7] Oo ymmething -- ae: And I had -. EFTA00059047

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE not doing it. ad and follow that 20 following them ’ that Ms. Noel would have heard that ae: Yeah. I'm confident. body. Same thing EFTA00059048

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 5 just for 6 u, and 7 at first, 8 the ¢ on that was 9 cond. ive) oO ~] oo 25 a : No, no. This is afternoon. EFTA00059049

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LIMITED wo Oo Midnight. All right. Fr (Indiscernible -- 4:00 p.m. - You told him about (Indiscernible iday *02:10:41) rnight. -™m. count. Then p.m. EFTA00059050

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LIMITED Ww oO wo fea] oo 19 t rar No KK OFFICIAL USE n to obtain. re able PF at that time. iu) Ww o I'm not pulling things Mm- out of hmm. V i) ah, emails So, this was froma Who was they Right. watch. So, this one hy Saturday, ugust 10th, Mm- And during the Was sent, hmm. morning gust 10th, 2019. EFTA00059051

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo 19 20 No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 182 This is just out of order. This should have bee , 2019, she it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. Ee : And on Sunday, August sends it at 6:15 a.m. Mm-hmm. Ee : Now, reviewing all of the lieutenant logs that came out prior to that uch betw time, they are all sent out you find it odd that she didn't send this one out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they were sent out much earlier than that. EFTA00059052

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LIMITED ive) w wo ) ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 183 w, everything happened, but do was weird that sent that one out at 9:26 a.m., when her She was That’s what I'm saying. She wasn’t at the -. When I got there, PF | | was the lieutenant -- Ee: -- who contacted me re) Ki inf oO left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know how they (I d. She didn't leave until after this out at 9:26 a.m. the institution around tl EFTA00059053

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 184 Ee : She - after Epstein was found - she actually went into the SHU. She helped with feeding. And then, she went back, and she did some things on the computer HS: «=k thought -- ee : And she sent it. a. who also wasn’t working in the SHU, but was there bec mtech guy. And, ee : And I'm looking at this, but ion, when | | had told left. me he had relieved her, and find that odd, then, that she was still tt EFTA00059054

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 185 Ee : This is the first you’re a : Yeah. Because when I was talk with her? ee : -- no. I mean, he reli hnically, when 1, then it beco wo 7] rt H didn't want, was the one that -. But I heard she had left. I didn't know she had come back. ee : She allegedly did not odd, because usually, your On your log, you will write on there, I’m relieved by such and es : So, is that suspicious to you at all? EFTA00059055

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 18 a : Kind of. Yeah. But I'm curious as to why you didn't log it down something. with her. I mean, I don’t want to -. You know, everything want to go speaking ved that she might be involved with death? fu Oh, no. I wouldn’t put it I mean, but it is just, I wo wouldn’t. And I don’t know -- s (Indiscernible 02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). -- that’s why I went over -. ion, like, what a EFTA00059056

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO 22 OFFICIAL USE 18 we say ying? all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to with this? far Ee : Keeping his cell door g another cell da doing harm to him? know -- that. see that. No. to believe it nsubordination Yeah. I would, you know, I ’ ~ EFTA00059057

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 18 were seeing the yeah, but I wouldn’t go wu MR. HAYES: Well, is she in position to 1ething like that? MR. HAYES: To leave the door open, or something going down range and the range door can't have both. Somebody would have to let her down there. 1 or particularly friendly with either No i) i) ae : I don’t know what their the shift 8 o b wu ot t O 5 n a bp ue] = mw uw ni = mw w EFTA00059058

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 ive) oO wo wo a. So, I don’t know what (Indiscernible brought I think I got The 9th and the 10th is in I think t working hard. -- the following dates. Sorry. EFTA00059059

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 190 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? a : Just, I just want to confirm with that. right now. All want to ee : -- and this is what we is the count numbers, next. a : Wait. Which is the one -? EFTA00059060

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 oO email was Right? But wh Oo oo EFTA00059061

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LIMITED OFFIC oO wo ive) fea] co wo w ing i) Ww EFTA00059062

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo 95 OFFICIAL USE going to go That is all the way idual, Who is August on 9th, down to 2019. back to clarify The something Yup. did i rt She this wa 10th morning. on —- EFTA00059063

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 194 morning. was found. thing, though - they all seem to nding it out combined it. If everything combined. goes from morning watch, day watch, evening watch, into -- But I'm just -. done the day before. EFTA00059064

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 Ee : I don’t think you're right, bud. I think she just doing x combined. That’s what -- ss) K D w > 10 a : -- that’s why I'ma little 12 : Yeah. o. She's not -- 13 came -- 15 EFTA00059065

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 196 That’s right. ae : So, on August 93th, 2019, at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 EFTA00059066

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LIMITED ho ho No No iN ies) w fos) wo fee) © iat) OFFICIAL USE iogs -- , when this ght. look at Now, person start And the institutional count, yeah. submit it. Although, the institutional count p.m. count, the midnight mM EFTA00059067

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 Now, not FS but the next one io co the next ops lieutenant shows that 2 3 73 is what is written in this. She went back 4 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 5 was determined -- 6 ae: That he was on the outcount, te] fos) 1 on | | ' oO J i) w > t °o * N ie] w S) 1 ee : And so, Fernandez was 2 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it ive) rection. Fernandez dry n this. “One ° ke 4 cell.” -m., and we do have Fernand 16 a : Looking back. , this is what happened with him. He was ~] just 50, this oo say n 9 found to have contraband, that he was providing 20 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 21 like, I think 1:( p.m. on August 9 He was 22 moved from the SHU to dry And he was kK Q U) bh i No ox) never -- mt EFTA00059068

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 4 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 5 6 8 - that’s what, 9 was supp to be in the ot) 15 ae : -- he wasn’t the oO ~] oo 22 a : They weren’t counting. And 23 then, there is no count slip here for the 24 inmate that EFTA00059069

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 w ~] ive) wo ee: There should have been a count slip for him over there. So, what should have happened was, the inmate - him - he should have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching him should have did a count slip on him. And then, whoever his back up was should have done a count slip. Ee : And this is, from my review of everything -- a: Mm-hmm. Ee : -- this is what I found. I don’t want to put my words into | mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to you. It says, “Count discrepancy on the August io th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated August 10th, 2019, and the attachment PF log from August 9th, 2019.” So, that’s what we are looking at here. ae: Mm-hmm. Ee : “The day began with 77 inmates assigned to ZA.” Or the SHU. “The 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At EFTA00059070

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. Reyes was removed from the institution and does not - and should not - appear on any counts at this time. At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 inmates assigned to ZA.” With one in attorney conference, which was Epstein. “This indicates that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip shows 75. Inaccurate. It should have reflected 74 because, although there were 75 inmates assigned to the SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There were no inmates assigned to RA on the El institutional count, and there was no count slip for RA, eyes on count.” This is where the problem begins. MES: hon. ee : “At 6:34 p.m., inmate Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to EFTA00059071

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 18 19 20 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate Reed (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:15) and William moved to ZA, to suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip shows 73.” Oh, this is another one. I don’t think we brought this. “One of the counts actually shows 73 plus one.” Do we have that in there? a : The 10:00 p.m. MR. HAYES: I admire your guys’ (Indiscernible *02:26:48). HE: «=X eah. $= You would also -. This is all probably -- WN:_—«s 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). | tsti‘iés*@s -- all Chinese to you. a: That’s how our count slips - EFTA00059072

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 oO wo ive) fea] oo MR. HAYES: I don’t understand -- a: -- should be done. All these initials, and this, a: -- but the count -- notice, crossed oO rt Q a 12] oF) wn @ off. This one says 98 + 1. This one s 1. The question had been, when did this ae : But you can't do a -. This slip. Bec o + EFTA00059073

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LIMITED wo oO ive) ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 204 cr za m a] 0 ie] is Kn ny] cr @ 0 O c ct K fe) ra a wu 5 T J 0 3 rt > 0 K @ R b 5 ct Bp A ie] the accura wouldn't write Cc No, but yo minus one on You would write the actual D oO a] D count on there. either it was 72 or o c t ig HAYES: All right. Guys, I'm going to kill me. EFTA00059074

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 205 plus one on the -- allowed to There should have been an outcount done. So, and this should have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant and these weren’t? would want to out because, Hh EFTA00059075

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 206 C oO rt =) wu rt n y 7 rt = fu 5 ct ct Oo know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, I'm looking at -. So, basically, I think it’s standard practice, as a d work i] control, and what I would do is, I would do the nd oO a : -- then that’s how Cale it. So, my question is then, ee : -- like that. I mean, this, if Cale does it like that, EFTA00059076

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 207 shift -. this is all on that s But point being, that, conduc No. much -- Mm-hmm. This was still on the warden that there is not SHU, from a EFTA00059077

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LIMITED w wo ive) fea] co ite) OFFICIAL USE 208 Fernandez k you just - sorry - would you mind si initialing and just dating? from the actually ee : -- and placed onto R, ke p.m., on August isible for SHU, and pla ng him into A, so that the count would be accurately ee : SHU would have notified EFTA00059078

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 oO wo ive) w fea] oo ple D wu w o 7 him out, done ee : Well, the notification is made to control that inmate being plac on dry cell in R&D. And then, you key the inmate to that area. It looks like FY -- MR. HAYES: Who is that? a : -- witnessed this. EFTA00059079

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) requested the lieutenant, but he never notified control -- ee : -- that an inmate was being moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 20) Ee : Well, no, no, no, no. I wouldn’t (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- a : He doesn't recall -- Ee : -- I wouldn’t -. Ee: But then, while the counts are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I need to do a count slip because I have an inmate down there. MR. HAYES: Is this where somebody disappears, that we’re looking for? ae: Right. ee : Again, I told you, this was more of an administrative thing. Just to say what does the warden, you know, and the on this Oo Ph oss 'S lace, what is his take on these matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot of things went wrong thi 03) day. So, we need to figure out why these things went wrong. So, 210 EFTA00059080

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we move on, that I got everything. All right? So, first, before we get into rounds, when a lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- Pe ee : -- are they required to conduct a round of the inmates going up and down the different tiers, or does the round consist of just checking in with the officers to make sure everything is okay? ee : Well, you check the officer to make sure they are all right, and you check the documentation. So, you check, you know, you edit, you would have to review the post orders also. To state what their duties are. I mean, all of us had different, you know, I was a lieutenant, so it was different things you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make sure, you know, the officers checked off, you know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. I would check to see if medical came up. So, it would factor and depend on what shift you went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates are up, so you’re going, you know, you can go around. Evening shift, you can see what’s 211 EFTA00059081

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo No N No Wa ho OFFICIAL USE 212 going on. The midnight shift, they’re sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 30-minute log, to see their 30-minute checks. documentation. ee : Now, as , did you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down range when they were doing their lieutenant Their rounds. And this is visits in the signing off a] on the different, like, on, as you can see, this is what I'm going to be showing you. These are round sheets that -- Ee: Mm-hmm. ee : -- you sent to Mr. a. where it shows the different w lieutenants signed on/off that they did their round. a : But what does -- ee : So, what does that -? ee: -- what the lieutenants are checking for is accuracy of the officer's rounds. EFTA00059082

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are not being done, you know, so, you know, then it needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is what the issue was. But if they are signing it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you know, that the time that the round will put down, that they were down. ee : Now, what would be -? This is the round, it looks like for 8/8. Can you think of a reason why these wouldn’t be done? But they would be signed off on right here? WN: et me see. So, ifa lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was empty like this, then it is a problem. ee : Because you have this 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing that they were conducted, but this lieutenant signed it. ae: That’s a problem. ee : The same thing. We go, this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks like they didn't even sign it until here. On 8/8. EFTA00059083

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 a : Wait. Did you print t! oO Now, the wo can think of, and whe I had gathe 10 something, I might have said, becat ot) oO oo was thinking of the log. The log did it 25 means -- EFTA00059084

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 Ee : So, this is just wror 2 Ee : -- yeah. This is wrong. Should have this oO 9 weren’t done. 1 tk is ive) oO oo 95 EFTA00059085

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE don't know who it was - but this looks (Indiscernible *02: how thos I don't it was. Who it was. (Indiscer but whomever it was during those shift. e 30- know who Same thing. ee : That’s just when | left his shift, or somewhere MR. HAYES: The point of this, if I think around EFTA00059086

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 WwW Fs) is] i) K 3) ies H a Pp. n pe on | | 5 counts. Now we’re on rounds 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, counts The 7 significance of the counts is, at some point, 8 Reyes disappears? 9 ee : No. The significance of oO ct he counts is that, if inmates - or if the 11 staff members aren’t conducting counts and - 2 counts are to the accountability of the 3 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 4 MR. HAYES: Right. MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 7 Ee : -- are basically to make t oO a 8 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 9 correct, sir 20 HN: X0u are right. Counts are 21 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 22 are basically safety checks. 23 | tsti‘iés*@s So, the point of these 24 questioning is, it looks like at - at we just 25 finished was counts - we have shown that the EFTA00059087

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo wo No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 21 co hh rh sta members were not conducting their counts. MR. HAYES: Right. Because that is why you have 72 when it should be -- MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:37:41). Ee : To find out were the staff members conducting their rounds. oO doing rounds. MR. HAYES: Got it. this case, a very high-profile inmate that was deceased. Became deceased at some point. MR. HAYES: And they think -- bd x ‘- K 3 i} i} ue] pa Ee U I “+t o whether they -- MR. HAYES: -- noticed on their rounds that the guy was deceased. conducting -- MR. HAYES: Or -. GS: 9 -- rounds at all. And if they were conducting rounds, would that be - and this is a question to you, like, we’ll a you now, since I'm making that explanation - if EFTA00059088

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 219 1 they were conducting their rounds, would that 2 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 3 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 4 know it’s not going to prevent it in every 5 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 6 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you ~] 8 are breathing. 9 a : It is true, but are checking to see if they are alive, and they mean, and 10 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 11 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 12 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 13 to do it. 14 ee : Right. And that goes 15 into play with why -- 16 MR. HAYES: They just -- 17 ME: ich. 18 MR. HAYES: -- they just look, 19 rounds by looking in their cell. 20 ME: ice. 21 MR. HAYES: So, if you want 22 MEM: > check. 23 MR. HAYES: -- do harm, you 24 until they go passed your cell. 25 WN: Richt. And then, they do wait you kind EFTA00059089

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo ite) ies) OFFICIAL USE of figure out the timing of the route. But the fact remains, if you are not showing on the form that you did your rounds, then that’s, that’s a problem. He: )9= So, when you are looking cause they are not 2) c no m at these rounds that yc b 1) A ke 12) Cc Fh I 5 oy rs 5 Q ue} K fe} on ra 0) 3 a completed correctly? You know, what we just ae: What is the question? Ee : Well, does it show you appear to ee : And that is for the 8th, wu 7) EFTA00059090

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE a : -- the information. 221 no. t to show that It’s, what his CE: -- coing it So, it’s just with his, you k now, if staff members ri re to make sure the round sheets are done rt What is that staff working up the that they this? This right there, EFTA00059091

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 ies) fos) wo ive) oo that we are looking at? This looks like the log. And so, n m1 i K a a in if ay he it show anywhere in there that there was any cells that were searched, or are they just all, like, common EFTA00059092

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1 oO wo ot) oO oo 22 with *) wu bh = ct Oo + o } A | ) BP uo } A something else that we ee : Mm-hmm. Ee : -- we got back one. By vr. a. a: Mm-hmm. ae : Is that a problem? That only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? ording to Tru Because I believe the orders state it is supposed to be - and don’t the EFTA00059093

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LIMITED oO WwW oO oo OFFICIAL USE post orders - but the shift. A minimum of five. morning -- MR. morning watch, though -- ae : -- picking the com So, let me get this state, I think five EFTA00059094

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 FI r = Ke 3) tA \e oO c w K 0) n ire, oO n © Q ct io] Q O Fh B o Ww ie) @ be bt U J bp r ct un tt b 1 Q fv c bh o) o wu a OQ a D wn re] i) H a “> Pp Kh ct oe fe tp K ie All right. And in this case, y an indication that did one? 7 ee : One. Right? 8 the 10 Not per shift. The whole Now, whose job is it -- t ive) No. 14 MR. HAYES: -- to say why aren’t you doing 16 17 this is my 18 problem, 19 that there was into TruScope? 20 Ee : Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 21 ee : Does that indicate that 2 Or 23 24 25 working that day, you’re going to have to ask EFTA00059095

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE them. I mean -- : And we have. : And it was just -- -- looking on paper, I mean, didn't, you didn't conduct your x i ke a : I mean, now, there might have been a reason where the the computers were down or whatever, but it is highly unlikely for -. MR. HAYES: going into a cel mean —— MR. HAYES: -- you throw over the ah. i) the whole thing? pull them out. You look and check the You check under their stuff. You EFTA00059096

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 you might go out and do that. Oo) wo 12 would t ion) wu 12] ct oc i) 50, this one, this is t o What are you looking -- 17 ee : That could be (Indiscernible co uld think. 23 ee : -- reg number. Reg number. It them. EFTA00059097

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 ee: Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 2 This is a search one. This is the log. 4 in your opinion? wi K @ if) bet rr = n 6 ee : All right. So, not only 7 searching them, but is it equally as important 8 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 9 whether things are being searched? 10 a: Yes You should log it. 11 A: 81) right. Now, this, 2 this comes to the kind of question on this 3 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 4 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 15 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 16 database said, where he should have been? He 7 was in the wrong cell. 8 ae: I did hear, afterwards, that 9 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 20 they keyed into the cells. 21 GS: 811 right. And what did 22 you hear? 23 ee: I think, just that the cell, 24 the way the inmates were being keyed in was 25 off, it didn't match this cell. EFTA00059098

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 229 Now, is that something that No. But I mean -- to him isn’t that -- it’s K i) rt EFTA00059099

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 w ~] ive) Ww 0 Ee : So, who should have made sure that Epstein’s cell, in the BOP database, matched where he was physically located? Because obviously, people get a hold of the information that he wasn’t in his assigned cell. You know, that is just more reason to people not trusting the government. So, we are just trying to figure out -. a : Well, and this is not a problem limited to one person. It is a problem - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as far as specific keying in cells. I don’t think this was done in a malicious -. ee : So, what happened here, our investigation shows is that when he came back from -- a : -- from suicide, or psychological observation, he was placed into the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this form. However, because his - is it CPAP (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? | ss es : His CPAP machine, the cord didn't reach the plug. EFTA00059100

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 oO wo oO oo him HE: «9 So, from July 30th to August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned you know, and my thought being is, well, if a : Oh, I thought you meant -- a: -- the cell didn't match up him into the cell that he was placed in, coming out of physically moved him to a different cell. CPAP machine wasn’t, EFTA00059101

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. HAYES: What is a 2 | tti‘aiézél; It’s the snore -. It’s 3 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. oO wo ive) Who was t o oo wo 25 it would hay EFTA00059102

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE OIC. to, you would have to call control center to if I'm wrong - staff an I thought the es: ~~ 3. would Ww EFTA00059103

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ee: So, a call should have been made down to control, saying, hey, this is , where he’s being keyed to, and this is what -. ee : And who should have made ae: Whoever made the change. Whoever switched him. Ee : And my understanding is that the OIC and the SHU fF were supposed to review cell assignments, to make sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at least on a periodical b Is that correct? a: Yeah. You do a, what we call a bed book check, to make sure. Because your board, you know, when you are in the unit, you have a board up there, and you just match where everyone is at. a : And how often should that happen? WN: There is no set policy, but a good practice, you know, you kind of want wu ifs) to check what your open cells are, where, you know, where individuals are. And should it also be checked if they were doing cell searches? Would that be caught, if they were 234 EFTA00059104

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 Ww w 1 doing searches? 2 ee: Well, if you are doing a 3 cell search, all you are going to do is put 4 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 5 It wouldn’t -. You wouldn’t necessarily be 6 able to find out if it is the correct room. And the correct bed in fos) oO mo oO t=] rt K 11 Ee: But, you know -. 2 ee : So, in this instance, 3 then, and I’1l1 shut up so I can actually let 4 you answer, who -- 15 MR. HAYES: I have the same problem. 16 Ee : -- who is it that should 7 have notified control center to make this 8 change? It sounds like you said whoever 9 physically moved him, at the time? 20 HS: «So, ~what happens is, whoever 21 physically moved him should have said, okay, 22 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 23 we are moving him. And then, you let the - 24 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will 25 call down to control center. EFTA00059105

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 95 OFFICIAL USE 236 sak to my client for a pa Matulewicz, and I'm pushing (Whereupon, the off the record and back on the re The EFTA00059106

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 No Ww OFFICIAL USE N u responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was within the -- lls that This, we know only because mean, been right, and that Ee : No. Well, we found out, know, wondering if it individual problem. curious. something that we EFTA00059107

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] oO 10 11 MR. HAYES: Well, and my question is, does that have any effect on count? I mean, they f still should be able to look in the cells if there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). ae: Well, when -- ee : Well, the problem comes in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, and it’s not his assigned cell. So, that just, you know -- MR. HAYES: But I'm saying -- a : -- the media says all of these things that went wrong. MR. HAYES: -- yeah. ee: One being -- MR. HAYES: I’ve had that. Ee : -- wait, he’s not even in the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and who was responsible? MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, so, my question is, does it make any difference? I mean, if they are supposed to do the count, the count i 7] you look in the cell, and see -- MR. HAYES: -- whether there’s a guy in 238 EFTA00059108

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 ~] wo 10 11 wo to there. Well, whatever number he’s in, or he’s not in, he’s still in his cell. ee : No. Correct. MR. HAYES: You know? ee : But because we are doing this deep dive review -- MR. HAYES: Okay. I gotcha. Ee : -- it’s showing these different, you know -- MR. HAYES: Got it. Okay. ee : -- and again, this this is one of those things -- n P- es] MR. HAYES: You’re just being extra careful. Yeah. It’s (Indiscernible Ee : -- and not like (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have to, we have to address the fact that -- MR. HAYES: He wasn’t in the right cell. Ee: 2S SOMr. Epstein wasn’t in the cell that he was assigned to. MR. HAYES: Okay. I mean, it’s not just that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong EFTA00059109

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 number of prisoners. 2 ich. That’s a lot of mistakes. 4 ee : Right. And we haven’t even gotten involved. 6 ae: Mm-hmm. 7 Ee : As I'm sure WwW rs] is] i) K 3) n w know. wo 3 i bp K ie] if) v3) 2 E oa er 11 who moved him didn't contact and have this 2 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 3 then, how would have anyone found out that he 4 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 15 place to ensure that where they are matches up with the actual database? 7 ee: Well, I guess if they were doing -- ee : You said bed book counts? 20 HS: «2 -- yeah. Usually, you could fea] oo wo 21 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 22 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 23 they are supposed to be. When you are updating 24 your accountability board, you would look and 25 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? EFTA00059110

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 241 And then, match it up with, you know, with S ) ntry. ee : And who would be doing HS: the staff working up in making sure that this is a: Well, he was thing was -- earheading it MR. HAYES: He was the supervisor. a : -- was right. Yeah. He was the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, let’s, did this happen? Have we done this? And have we done that? MR. HAYES: And -. Just to make me clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether or not he should h a, he had a roommate. somebody dropped EFTA00059111

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 242 would have dropped the 2d the ball or they maliciously didn't find at that he wasn’t on the count. They had said we dida didn't noti re that, or didn't - that he wasn’t breathing, y That starts to be a did review this. ‘cumented, inmate with two other inmate EFTA00059112

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 a Cc w i) 5 rt 4K Q ) iO) u 1 during his assignment in the § 2 not reflect this information accurately. WwW H 3 a 7] ct o i) [eo] it) ct o Bb =] a & found within cell 220, that w there is Oo oo - oO pes i] | bee | ie! bp it) is] K oO uel ral} o Q t Oo ifs 1 ee : The way that I read that is, overall, whether they are referring to 3 5 I am not able to 16 8 based upon that 9 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 20 they had some discrepancies. So, Po 21 Rice would hav it’s really 22 the staff that would be responsible for doing 23 these bed book counts, and making sure 24 assignments are -- 25 ee : Yeah. He did it right there EFTA00059113

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 No Ww OFFICIAL USE 244 Ee : And is it surprising to you that almost two weeks that wasn’t caught? never caught that he was not -- a : In the right cell. in the right hing it. It is. EFTA00059114

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) w ee: And again, and you probably have to speak to the captain who was responsible for doing the checks, and doing the count. ee : So, would the captain have some responsibility on this, too? ee: Well, did the captain is in charge of correctional services. So, that is the unit he is over. a: So, he has overall responsibility to make sure, you know, in conjunction with the a. that the unit is running the way it is supposed to run. Ee : And what should have the captain done in order to make sure that that was accurate? a : Well, now, there is different ways of finding out if stuff is wu ccurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit ystem. Where they are responsible - the ts) lieutenants - are responsible to conduct perpetual audits. So, you can find out through those, when you do it. And they are usually EFTA00059115

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 om 1 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 2 things are going on in Ww ie] ie) KR K o 0 rt b ie) =] wu bh ts) it] i a QO o n = o 4 perpetual audits, which he maintained the another che and w Kh oO o) oO 4 eo) in oO Hh w o oo rt =e i ct b. fa 6 balance find out if something And how often are those fos) wo i=) quarterly. ive) All right. 4 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 5 or 11 days, there is a chance that th 16 weren’t done during that time period? Or do 7 you know when they would be done? Are they 8 done, like, on a certain date? 9 a : What, the quarter 21 ee : It’s - and I don't know when 22 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 23 to your checks and balance. know -- 24 ur perpetual EFTA00059116

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 wow. We did ive) en, you come up with tli 4 fix it. 5 Hs: «So, that’s how the captain could have determir oO H Cc i) i) 7) | | 8 -- but how, in those -- 9 1@ captain would find out. caught? 12 a: Again, you would 13 your, your inmate accountability board. t n Ke fea] Sentry, 17 matching it with what is on 19 that I'm beating -- oo ie) t bh | | wu 19) i) ow ie! > fe) & i ni] z oO ht 0D ho 2 but, like, who does that? No Again, I don't know who, 25 know, has differe EFTA00059117

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LIMITED ho ho ho No i) ive) w wo fea] oo © OFFICIAL USE 248 that work. ee : Right. Like, what -- a : -- no, but basically, when you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't ping, and, or a living, breathing body, but y Mm-hmm. ck and say, our cell, the accountabili in the cell. So, ee : You can't really answer EFTA00059118

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 ~] oO 10 11 MES.) right. Let's get this stuff out of your way. If you don’t mind, this -- MR. HAYES: Am I right that we are getting close to the bottom of the pile? ee : We are. We are getting close. MR. HAYES: Because Jesus Christ, I can't take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). Ee : We are -. (Indiscernible *02:58:31) with this. MR. HAYES: Yeah. a : Mm-hmm. ee : So, this is the email with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. And these were separate. MR. HAYES: Now, let me ask the question (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. Your job is the prison. It’s your job to look down into the prison, as far as these counts and, you know, accountability boards, and so forth. ee: No. I mean, that is what you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? EFTA00059119

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 w ~] oO ive) MR. HAYES: Okay. | tti‘aiézél; And then, we touched on this before, but this is an email that the captain sent to you. ee : Regarding the lieutenant rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, Pe here are the lieutenant rounds for 8/9 to 8/10. Below are the workstations logged on to complete rounds.” a: Mm-hmm. Ee : But again, for you, a lieutenant round, and I don’t know if we ever came to that conclusion, or that we may have got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round is used primarily to check in, and it’s not is) necessarily to go down the different ranges? a : On the midnight shift. So, they typically not, you know, unless they have an issue, but like you said, you a fu it) lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see what’s going on. EFTA00059120

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LIMITED oO WwW oO oo OFFICIAL USE both the morning, or the day watch and the night watch? Evening watch. is what I will orders aren’t clear with we haven’t been ab ee : -- that’s what I me not a requirement. (Indiscernible *03:00:26), and le EFTA00059121

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 You would call 5 ee : Because most lieutenants oO 9 absolutely required to do -- just 1 15 Some lieutenants -- Oo oo lieutenants that worked that day -- EFTA00059122

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 2 ee: No. The expectation is, wo ios) 3 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 4 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 5 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 6 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 7 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 8 we are talking about the post orders, were they 9 required to? The post, you know, the post 10 orders, I had the requirement 11 that they have to, know -- ive) Nm ro) a i) he -- physically go in the 4 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 16 understand you correctly - the expectation was 7 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 8 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 9 so 20 HN: Ss Xc2h. You should be walking 21 around. 23 ee: To see if everything -. 24 es : But it’s not like you 25 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure EFTA00059123

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 N Ww wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you are doing this. ee : -- so, if someone wasn’t doing it, it’s not like something they would be disciplined for? ee: See, that’s hard. I mean, to say you would discipline. There is a difference between what is written down, and what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I want to see what’s going around the unit. I might ask the officer, all right, do we have any problems. The inmates, when you come on, hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are going down the ranges. You know, so, when you are going down the range, you are seeing something. You get to another range. The inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, it is something you should be doing as part of your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just walking around, to make sure everything is -. ee: But if you were still the EFTA00059124

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 wo wi 1 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 2 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 3 doing rounds -- wi 6 they were only checking in with the staff 7 members, and they were not actually walking 8 down the ranges, is that something that you 9 would find problematic? i=) a: I would correct it. 11 ee : And when you say correct you mean by that? Nm I rt = a i] ct jen 1?) ive) I would tell, you know, get 4 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 5 they need to be, know, in inmate grounds, f foal ct Ss oO =] oO oO ie ct ie) = wu } wo ct og 0) KK w 5 Q oO if] Les] ry a * p. a] Q r a o H rv] 3 .Q oO it) ct 7 o 3 9 a : Off of the post orders, it’s not in ther oO + you know -- 21 Mt iknow. I -- 22 a : -- any place saying that you 23 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like unit you walk on, you want to see what is 25 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the EFTA00059125

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) word “sound correctional judgment”? just to see, I mean, you have some beyond. And then, do some people that want But that is something asa supervisor, what 2 You know, 5 is going on. people that go above and their job, and you have to do the bare minimum. Mm-hmm. from a rounds point of view, I would say you need to make those rounds. MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me ask you a question. a : Mm-hmm. MR. HAYES: You do the rounds. Does that mean literally walk up and down this, what we, what would call the cell block? ee: Yeah. You walk around the unit. You know, inmates. thing with the inmates in SHU. are walking around. familiar with is You are talking to inmates. Hey, the way the SHU is you are interacting with Same } You know, what’s going on? So, what you are not set up. Right. There is different you on EFTA00059126

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo is] I hh Hh oO K © 5 ct uel I py Q oO w Q o B ct OFFICIAL USE 257 MR. HAYES: Yeah, I’ve been to the SHU. MR. HAYES: Know what I remember about the SHU? It’s fucking cold. are just, you can simply go in and go to the like, if ck in with the officer’s station, and i) verything good? You got all your paperwork in order? All your keeping all of their round U ct a i) 3 n iv) bh 0) n versus on the ranges of the range oO me have it right there, the log, you EFTA00059127

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 258 to do was go to paperwork is done, and other Po that we talk you are signing it just l Mm-hmm. sign that conducte round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. make sure erything You are not just checking on. Mm-hmm. we are trying to EFTA00059128

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N uw wo 1 say is, which one is right? 2 ee : Well, now, for the ones that 3 that I don’t have to go down and 4 range, they are going off the post 5 6 : hon. 7 ee : The ones that are doing they are going around and che oe ct J oO bh H —) fe) o king wo i=) ive) it kind 5 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 1] fea] wrong? They need to ch 7 ee : Well, they would, they would have - should put in -- nge the post orders? 0 oo 9 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 20 Ee : -- their post orders, but 21 they should be going around, and -- 22 MR. HAYES: So, they should have a rule -- ee : -- the wellness check. JS, you got t No ox) » go Oo 25 around? EFTA00059129

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE did anything wrong. They should should =] a 0) Ke 7) a ie) c an o 4 =) m = wu it) again - was that email from | to you, with MR. HAYES: Damn. That uel f b D Pp. 0) wu b Oo ct lower. I'm fucking out of here. pile back, N > EFTA00059130

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 ~~] wi 23 you actually had your 24 own 95 EFTA00059131

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LIMITED oO WwW oO oo OFFICIAL USE No. That’s not in t all to unl why was this coinci do with him. Nothing to 2ah. This had nothing to that’s what he sent. So, that d nothing to do with him. Ee : So, this has nothing to EFTA00059132

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 do with Eps 4 going to -- oO t Nh Mm-hmm. 14 This is a new document 15 Okay. This is on -. This 16 is eight, for the -- oo 95 EFTA00059133

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 264 is] of a requirement that you conduct round you are supposed to About once -- is this -- week, Like, up as many times, but, you know, FY is supposed to be going. MR. HAYES: Now, that means you are conduct rounds in the SHU? Ee: Yeah. I go in the SHU. I nds in walk around and do r institution. to do a round never seen this round institution has this. This is where you sign into the Special Housing Unit. This is the log. And this is showing that they made their rounds. EFTA00059134

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LIMITED oO wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE the Ee : Just the lieutenant did two rounds. this, EFTA00059135

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 n 1 operations has nothing in there, is that 2 problematic? Ww Gel a ror > oO it o # w the other thing 4 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 5 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial fon) w 3 QQ w po Q 5 Bb rt 8 ee: So, what I would do is, I 9 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 10 the end of the week, what happened? How come 11 you didn't make rounds? Nm un is) all of these blank ive) spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 4 rounds in SHU? 16 They should have been up there, but they are 7 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 8 MR. HAYES: The correctional judgment -- 20 MR. HAYES: -- would be they up 21 to that 22 a : But health services has to 23 make rounds. NK You’re getting it. ine) w H a Oo tg oo] ia EFTA00059136

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 MR. HAYES: By the end of the day, man, 2 I’1ll be ready to lf. I hated Ww Te] 12) p a Q cr 12] Te] Kh Ht w fe) 5 4 ee: Psychology. You know? So, which ones on here wi 6 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 7 ee : You have the unit team supposed to go up. The lieutenants. @ ct ey w rt n 10 did any rounds. That’s -. 2 ee : But I'm assuming they Correct? WwW re] iu) H ct wu k 3 an wn ww 12) c a A a wu D have been up there, to go around. So, and again, 16 look at it and see who was on leave. 7 might have been on leave, not on leave. 8 a : And what are - so, when 9 these it looks like more 20 I mean, obviously, what is a warden round look 22 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, No WwW oO RR | | EFTA00059137

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a: -- what I do is, I walk around and I go to every cell, and I talk to the guy, got any issues, any problems? They’re, like, no, I'm good. You might have some that say, hey, I'm up here for an investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. Fine. Some of it I can address right there, some of it I can't. But I would typically walk around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, that is the reason why you are up there. Why am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, you go by it, it says -- MR. HAYES: It’s because you are a fucking mass murderer, that’s why you’re up here. ae : -- and, like, you know why you are locked up. And then, they would say, well, how come the investigation is taking so long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, if it was an OIG investigation. It would depend. So, you know, I would usually tell them, like, you know, it’s an outside agency handling. We are in contact with them. And somebody will come see you. : oy. EFTA00059138

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 ee: Some could be up for 2 administrative, like an incident report. 4 talked to everybody, but were you required to 5 do that, or is it just bex just were a i oO good employee? 7 ee : I mean, that’s what 8 should be doing. 9 ee : That’s what 10 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 11 well, the post orders don’t say that. 2 a: Well, I don’t have post 3 orders. t oO w Cc ct let ° c are -. But 7 something does say that u are required to do 8 it once a week? 9 a : There’s nothing in writing 20 to tell me you have to do it. But just like I 21 visit every area, I have to, I area 22 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 23 every employee going there on the off shifts. 24 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see 25 the staff, but it’s -- EFTA00059139

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 2 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 MR. HAYES: It’s a surprise. In other words, you are not telling them you are coming, you are just going. ee: Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to staff. What’s your issues? I mean, it’s more the issue of them just work. I mean -. Ee : So, when you say there’s nothing in writing, saying that you should do it, or is there something in writing saying these people that didn't do it, that they should have done it? a : No. And there could be reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would get the report and look into - like, there are people that make the rounds, they come up to SHU but they forget to sign in. a : So, when I get the report, I would, you know, talk to the captain, that this the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such and such make a round? Now, that | might have been out that week, and I had this one covering both. So, they came up with the i. —) oO EFTA00059140

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE ike, these p ople that, for ited on Friday, what time they visited? Because this is the day that Reyes aptain was in there Ee : Should have he noticed didn't go down range. And he up, and remem Ten South that’ if] connected. So, I don't know if he came up him making hi rounds, you a the range. I don't know. And then, s rounds, s making his re going to have empty cells on a : -- somebody could be at uld be on an attorney EFTA00059141

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 oO wo 11 a. and it looks like was there, too -- ot) two oO in the shower. oo mean —-— EFTA00059142

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) wo 3 3 OFFICIAL USE 273 his cellmate was in, could in with them. : That, I mean, you want to are around, making rounds, talking So, I don't know what, u know, thought proc or, you know, shower or not. trying -- EFTA00059143

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 274 take a shower when Monday. Typically, it’s Monday, Friday. is from Norman Ee: That’s the PCU unit. Wit Ee : The wit sec unit. might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). Sorry. All right. sounds mind just initialing and dating that? MR. HAYES: Now, we are getting close to the end. EFTA00059144

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 2 follow up questions before we move on. ies) don’t you ask those? 4 ee : If, if the counts and the rounds were done -- 6 a 7 a : -- as they were supposed to w 8 be done, let’s say in the afternoon, by the SHU 9 C.0.s, would they have caught the fact that 10 Epstein’s cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was 11 actually not where he was supposed to be? In 2 terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein 3 was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was 4 transferred, would they have caught onto the 15 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 16 a: I don’t understand what -. a : Let’s say Reyes was 8 transferred, right? 9 a : Mm-hmm. 20 WN:—«ss« 1 the counts and the rounds ~] 21 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 22 count, the rounds in between, if they were 23 done, would the SHU C.0.s have caught on to the 24 fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? 25 ee : But they already knew that. EFTA00059145

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LIMITED 7 wo ive) oO co 23 OFFICIAL USE 276 a : If the word of mouth -. | tti‘aiézél; So, the claim is -- a : Mm-hmm. told me that. 0 H fi] ue] KR D n i) i] rt n wu het cr a 0) o) a] 3 om rt a pp 5 rt wn fa b its) t have a cellimate. So, if you ct 7 here, that I guess, and on outside of the cell, they would me and the A 5 w EFTA00059146

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where is the cellmate? We know he’s not in the attorney room. MR. HAYES: Okay. MR. HAYES: I got it. a: So, you know he’s down in the attorney room. So, you would have said, okay, somebody’s got to be in that cell. MR. HAYES: Hmm. Ace bastard. That’s a way to fuck with the other guys. a : Meaning, if they actually did the rounds and the counts like they were supposed to, there was more than enough time for them to turn around and assign another cellmate, if needed. ee: Or to say, of course, to your point, where they are saying that nobody ever told them, if you were making your rounds, you would have saw that there was nobody in that cell, and then ask you a question, where he’s at. MR. HAYES: And the person whose job it is to make sure they are doing their rounds is the lieutenant or the captain? EFTA00059147

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 w ~] ive) ee: On the shift, it is the lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your rounds, and then, something like this happens, then you find out people didn't make their rounds. Ee : And I think what | question to you was, does this suggest to you that they were not actually conducting their rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 hours, and the notifications weren’t made? a : It would appear, yeah, that is the appearance. MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:18:07). a : I just have one other MR. HAYES: When I do cross examinations, and it says, it would appear that, yeah, that’s, yeah, somebody found. a : Have you ever heard of C.0O.s pre-filling round sheets? es : When he says pre-filling, what he is saying is that, the beginning of EFTA00059148

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 w ~] ~—) wo their shift, they are going in and they are just writing, they are initialing and putting in the time. At the very beginning, for the rest of their shift. ae: So, let me put it to you a : I saw you smile -- a : -- when he asked that. ae : Because if I become aware and know that somebody is doing something like that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going to report that. So, if somebody came to me and said, well, this person is pre-filling out count slips, that would be something that I would say, okay, you know, I have to doa referral, or if I don’t have enough evidence for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count slips. ee : So, if we have people confessing, admitting that they are not only pre-filling out their count slips, but also doing it with their round sheets -- MN: cht. EFTA00059149

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE N o ° to that? How bad of a -? How bad is t s rt a ae: Well, that is a referral. I to do a referral for D ME: then, if a: Well, I mean, if they’re telling you that we pre-filled it out, it’ its] obvious that they did not, they ar 0) not counting. pre- filling out a sheet, that means -- MR. HAYES: They’re not counting. counting. ee : And does that indicate to you, as a. that tt certifying rounds and counts that they did not have no intention oO Fh ely are fal un conduct? EFTA00059150

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 done our count slip, 2 misconduct. 2 5 6 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 7 to you But as far as -- fos) Now, what if you -- oO —-- me -. Lo ME. = what ic 1 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 2 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 3 watched a 20-year-old guy, 20-year guy do it. 4 That’s how I learned. He didn't tell me to do 5 it. But I watched him do it. 16 -- 7 So, I did that. 8 I would -. So, I would 9 say to you, when did that person come in? 20 Because anybody that came in under me, 21 I was 22 officer. I know what it is I 23 always tell people, you got to know 24 what’s near and dear to 25 Ee : And that is why I asked EFTA00059151

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N o Hh its) 1 you specifically -- Ww | | with Tova Noel. Are gave her that spiel? 1] 4 you confident that to whoever was in her w 8 wu a a its) 6 class, and you talk to any, came throu and they will tell you my spiel. fos) Okay. 9 a : Okay? You can go into our 10 annual training, when we have it, talk to 1 peo uel le, and they will tell you about my spiel. wu i 0 0 he Oo P= ie) fu fn rt an wu rt wu bh ways at ive) annual training? Because t oO a MR. HAYES: Yeah, but do you always s 7 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don’t 8 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 9 that. 20 Ee : I do. I tell people about 21 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 22 taff all the time 23 to control the 24 25 specifically about EFTA00059152

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that you tell them? ee: So, what I tell them is, I come in -- ee: Because it sounds like it is the same thing you tell them every time. a: -- right. So, what I basically tell them, I said, you got some good people that work in the institution. And then, I had, you got some people with time, that just want to do what they want to do. And I tell them, don’t follow them around. I said, you've got one. If you are on probation coming in, you need to be doing your job. I said, if someone comes in, and they’re not doing their job, or they’re telling you not to do something, you make sure you let your supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you can, you can talk to me. ES: 02. ae: You know? So, the expectation was clear. But with any other agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - there are people that come in and they become followers. EFTA00059153

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 Ee : Now, we’re going to move ) 5 ies) Mm-hmm. 4 ee : We talked about the phone wi 0 w b Kh 7 Ee : On August 9th. What is 8 your understanding of what transpired with 9 a phone call on the ° night of August 93th, 2019? 1 Ee: So, from what I understand, 2 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 3 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 4 all that. So, from what I understand 5 available for 16 he nt down to the 7 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 8 So, from what I understand, he was given an 9 unmonitored call 21 an “unmonitored call”? 22 a : An unmonitored call is a 23 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone 24 tem. o it your -- EFTA00059154

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 fee =] wi don’t Ww x i Q — t H a o u 5 t 5 understanding that anyone physically monitored oO was standing wo 11 understanding that, “On August 93th, 2019 to provide him with a phone t ive) 14 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 15 mother. pac} fea] oo nd PIN, and found out it was not yet ie) 19 up. EFTA00059155

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) H oo OFFICIAL USE N o fond for the day. a: it) is) K ial le Mm-hmm. Then we found out that Mm-hmm. : «: EE ic not cifically instruct any one of them to i) ] sp monitor their phone call. Instead, he called the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein after his allotted time. Had you heard that was that, | was there the entire time of That, at the entire time of The fact that | dialed the umber that he gave him, and a man called. A i] man answered. Who, he said he was calling his mother. A man answered and he gave him the phone. Is that problematic to you? EFTA00059156

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE ee: I didn't hear that it was a -. Who did I -? They said it was his -. a : So, that information might have come out after. specifics, but I heard it was -. I forgot who they said it was that called, but then afterwards, they said, whoever they said it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that ee : I think it was his Ee: Yeah. I think it might -. , and that, that is what I heard. So MR. HAYES: -- his mother died during the time N o J EFTA00059157

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 MR. HAYES: So, he calls, looking for his 2 mother. 3 ee : He said he wanted to talk 4 to his mother. 5 MR. HAYES: But his mother was already 6 8 person who 9 answered the phone was a male. But he still 10 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 11 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 2 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 3 phone to Mr. Epstein. 4 Ee: Well, remember, I am hearing 15 this, that it was a call that all along said 16 I'm calling the mother. I don’t know anything about a man answering the phone. 9 providing this information as in, like, you are 20 WN». hat is your take on this? Did he 21 do something wrong there? 22 a : Well, as far as, you know, 23 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, 24 and the -- 25 Ee : And a man answers the EFTA00059158

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE phone. ee : -- and then, aman answers the phone. Yeah. It might have been some he should have been aski who it was he =) ¢ Should have he verified fiding -? If he is him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored line, should have he verified who it was was on that other MR. HAYES: Why do it’s an unmonitored line? means unmonitored, That you can't -. 1. MR. HAYES: -- it’s not record On that note, were there fF could have plugged N o its) EFTA00059159

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LIMITED oO wo ive) o co 23 OFFICIAL USE the phone into, that were monito a pack and PIN? a : I don’t think You said not I'm not sure. red, versus i h, we had if not m EFTA00059160

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 ive) he do that, but he then oO wo ive) fea] rh tT) Q rt that, you know, obvious oo the 19 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted and a 23 | tsti‘iés*@s Second, he didn't st to 24 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell call. Now, the EFTA00059161

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 Hh act that the other people are in the unit, ive) should have they then, at some point, also 4 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 5 let’s go monitor it, or should have that been 6 8 9 -. But 1 know the place between them. If 12 told to go 13 Did they not 15 16 oo its) 21 Get it back after - minutes. 23 ee : Mm-hmm. 24 es : They were EFTA00059162

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: The significance of this is 2 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, ies) ve found out that or he was -? Well, there is -. Can wi £ 6 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 7 that what inmates are talking about on their oe ue] J Oo o @ ie] fu an bh un ts) H 3 o wu 5 just for the safety the institution. 1 ee : Is it true that they 2 could potentially operate their businesses, Oo ow 5 oF ct a oO n oO a C a b ct Oo + ive) their illegal businesses, from there? 5 call a hit on 16 they could do a lot of 7 ies, if we are not 8 9 a : Right. That’s -- 20 ee : -- that we wouldn’t know 22 a : -- why we monitor them. MR. HAYES: All right. I N ox) j one more is) n ct Oo R kK EFTA00059163

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 294 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. HAYES: I'm a young lawyer. And I know it’s hard to believe I was ever young. But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - and I go to the interview, and he says, this person is the main rat against, and I said, no, he’s not. I said, that person has got no - fucking nothing to do with it. He don’t say nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, oh, man, I better make a phone call. ee: So, is it standard practice to allow inmates to make personal calls, as | had done? a : You do I, sometimes if they come in, they don’t have a pack number. Like, you could have a family member that has passed away, and, you know, you allow them to make a call under that circumstance. You know, I have a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, you make a call to another agency. And the inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is such and such. But you stay and you listen to the conversation. MI): W2s there ever an instance that you wouldn't listen to the EFTA00059164

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 On an unmonitored lir ive) Mm-hmm. oO All right. And what are your thoughts on this matter from what wo ive) t o And why? oo wo No Ww EFTA00059165

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo No N N Wa OFFICIAL USE 296 A attorney. fi Bh “For client Jeffrey Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find complaints from Epstein’s attorneys. Can you 0 k to 3) i) Q he e if he has toilet paper, and that his CPAP is plugged in? I iat egarding his complaint of h calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, there is no recording of them. His phone account is set up, so we could get a call on the ITS, when 30 days has -- a : So, it looks like this was actually discussed, and this again, was on know if this was whole, to the whole es : -- team. Was this talked about at all? EFTA00059166

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 297 when, and I don’t recall the timeline, I sz monitored. you know, this call on an but | tsti‘iés*@s But what you had said, make sure his pack and PIN is set up? EFTA00059167

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LIMITED oO wo oO oo OFFIC him at the, where he was in that’s going to be -. Now, did you -. Were you able to print out that attachment? a : No. That’s just It’s not what they es: : this is one we got. It’s something Ee : Mm-hmm. ae : And who is that? a : That’s the communic hoping -. ion charge of, like, the pho EFTA00059168

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo wo ho No Ww OFFICIAL USE 299 says, “Phone record 104. 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an attachment Ee : That we are unable to know what that uld have been? A It appears that it is ding of that phone call? a: No. I didn’t get any ae: I think it might -. I'm not sure. I information with EFTA00059169

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LIMITED oO Oo OFFICIAL USE 300 We might have called him about the line, and what was the number tt Okay. Ee : And could they it might have I think wanting dating t didn't didn't know, oh my of this thing? EFTA00059170

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 301 ee : All right. Now, we are going to get into the actual incident. Oh my God. Now, understanding of what occurred in 10th, 2019? Ee : I don’t know. ae : You don’t know? a : I didn't go up there. of what happened? ae : That was what EFTA00059171

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 302 information, with night of Au ning of heard that any lls within the ce - any SHU night of Au 2019 in the morning? Hmm-mm. a) o a] K + mt rt harmed Epstein? A No. I would EFTA00059172

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) ies) oO ios) Health Services Clinical Encounter. ee: Right. ee : Did you get to review this one at all? ee : It talks about responding to a body alarm at 6: ee: I think I might have saw the memorandums, but I don’t -. I don’t recall WwW 5 for medical emergency. seeing this. ee : All right. So, let me just read this, for the record -- a: Mm-hmm. ee : -- because it is a very quick one. It says, “Responded to a body alarm at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress by correctional officers. The inmate was cold with circumferential bruising around the neck and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and Wo 5 io dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03: 759) pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. ED placed. No shock advised. CPR continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment EFTA00059173

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 1 room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock 2 (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12).” No. I'm not going 3 to read the rest of this. It just talks about 4 continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, 5 after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, 6 at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he of life? fos) I never -. I wasn’t up Oo ct S o kR o 10 Ee : Yeah. I just didn't know ME: 9 -- (indiscernible ive) 5 ae: -- when I got there, he = fw fs) t Oo) w be K oO wu is] bea} Oo £ ct 8 you know, he was declared deceased at the 9 hospital. So, my question is, 20 from this person’s report -- 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. No ox) 5 24 is K ts n vs b iQ as _ EFTA00059174

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 305 a : Well, the impression that I was he was alive when he left the ee : So, you believed he was ee : That’s what was conveyed. Ee: I think he was still alive, if I remember ri I think he was -. They did the CPR. And then, they him out. Ee : And who -. So, according again, thi cold. You know, “Pupils fixed and 35 -- is] saying the Meaning, I'm You know? you would probably have oonding EFTA00059175

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 memorandums on what -. ee: So, up until this date, did you think that he was alive when he had left the institution? ee : That’s what I believed. That was the impression I had. MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. If he was dead when they came, and somebody found him, or even if he was close to death, how long would it have been that he tried to kill himself, and the time that they found him? In other words, does that mean he tried to kill himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You understand the question I'm asking? Ee: Sure. I mean, that is something that the medical examiner, you know, makes that determination. MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, had done whatever he did, during the time that there was supposed to be a round, and somebody fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are there, with a towel around your throat, that’s a hint that you are not exactly in the best of moods. EFTA00059176

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LIMITED w ies) w fos) ive) oo its) No i) ies) I No OFFICIAL USE Mm-hmm. ut like know, I don’t know, medical examiner determi Well, irst ct 0 on © fe) e) 3 a) 3 ie hh oO Pah 7 z ce ie Hy provider, who Mm-hmm. your understanding, by and that wa All right. saying provider, if he’s know, going f all, who - Joseph Columbo, worked at -? f=] oc a] n D w And is it this is cally, it in has who the up until me were under the Yeah. That was my assumption. EFTA00059177

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LIMITED oO WwW oO oo OFFICIAL USE 308 anything to do with the examiner is the on dead? right. ae : But is that what you mean heard that he showed signs from life? still EFTA00059178

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) oO ite) 1 performing life-saving measures on him, even 2 when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming 3 in there. So, when to me that we are 4 performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming 5 that he is still alive Like, there is -- oO Pe) is its} aa rt wo could bring him back. 11 ee : Or you are hoping that i=) 2 you are going to resuscitate him. But do you 3 know of any indication of -- 4 MR. HAYES: That he was successful -- 5 ee : -- signs of life? t oO a MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 7 ee: I didn't. Again, I'm going , assuming that he was still alive ie] 1? Ph Fh 12] Fh wo on o Q wu c n e they were still working on him. 21 ee: So, and if somebody 22 now, I’ve been in situations where the 23 paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on 24 them, and they say, you know what? There is 25 nothing else we can do. He still hasn’t been EFTA00059179

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 1 declared dead. i) ive) 3 i a c K i) 4 MR. HAYES: Right. wi But from what I gather, they 6 were still working on them. MR. HAYES: When nobody dies in 8 prison, you are being ee : It’s just one of those 10 things that -- wo ive) fea] oo its) 24 like, sometimes -- 25 MR. HAYES: It’s sort of a EFTA00059180

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LIMITED ies) fos) oo OFFICIAL USE 311 MR. HAYES: To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). cause sometimes, the bodies are still there, and -- a : -- and we know he is deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical examiner -- MR. HAYES: Yeah. MR. HAYES: At the hospital -- a: -- (Indiscernible MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57) MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *0 Mm-hmm. MR. HAYES: You know, you can tell he’s not coming back, but I mean, know what I'm EFTA00059181

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 1 Ee : But just, I just want to 2 be clear, because with that statement, without ies) me getting a little more clarification, people 4 are going to read, wait a second, PF 5 said that he was still, he thought he was still 6 alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 7 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 8 to bring him back, or based upon the 9 conversation with someone - and my follow would 10 be that, who? - did you believe that he was 11 still alive? 2 a: My assumption, from when I was called, was they were working on him, and ive) 4 he was - they were being taken to the hospital. t wi Okay. 7 MR. HAYES: That was -- 8 ae: -- that’s the term. 9 MR. HAYES: -- that -. Wait. You were 20 called at a certain time. 21 ae: Yeah. When the lieutenant 22 called. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, the lieutenant 24 says - 25 Ee : So, when you came back EFTA00059182

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) and found out, did you ever find out th wasn’t showing signs of life, when you came in and talked to people? : \o. all, when it happened, I wasn’t going a Because I - fir questioning people about -- with this, because then, I knew that it -- okay, what’s goin criminal case going to be an investigation into it. I didn't want to give the appearance of anything, that I was interfering with a investigation. But when I did call, they said they were working on him, and that, you he was being transported to the outside ini hospital. provided you with that information? MR. HAYES: So, you drew the infer The lieutenant. that that -- MR. HAYES: -- meant he was still Wo at he st of round g on WaS a And so, ny know, at ence alive? ios) But not criminal, but there was EFTA00059183

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO 22 ssumed that, yo te uy D were still working on him, and he @ and speaking with other he bring anymore? kind of co through now? OFFICIAL USE 314 EFTA00059184

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 315 left. All right. So, Mm-hmm. Bonhomme and for any re homme left 3¢ I think Bonhomme work EFTA00059185

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 316 I: «St think this -- | tti‘aiézél; -- until midnight, and - I don’t know if he And then, I included not sure. I think Fs Davis was prev And then, just from -- a] Hh t D ini wu fel A a : I think that Ten South was Robert Adams. remember it. But I know it had to do with the know the EFTA00059186

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LIMITED ies) oO wo ive) oO co wo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 317 sub have been obvious because they were working up there on the midnight shift. But I don’t know Davis got thrown in there. ne oO Q Cc RK b + 1) with EFTA00059187

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Wo a co 2 | tti‘aiézél; Do you know what the WwW ue] c RK "9 2) un o Oo Fh ct =a Dp it) = w n 4 ee: Let me read it again. 5 “(Indiscernible *03 and while this 6 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 7 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 8 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. I -hat lieutenants were to conduct ts) @ 4 ue) fa wu a 3 @ on ct x f + 10 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 1 (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I 2 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 3 *03:45:15).” Oh, no. I was asking him 4 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 5 he provided? t oO So, what did he provide 7 to, like, the SHU staff and the | tsi 8 Because -- No ox) | | un Oo 24 detailed conversations with the SHU a. 25 he was informed of my expect EFTA00059188

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE on several casions that inmate Epstein was to be housed a: Right. Mm-hmm. in order to ‘“Durin address management concerns with inmate do you know what he is talking about With management ncerns. a : The housing of them. And in Special Housing Unit. ee : y. And do you know if, according to this, it looks like he is saying that he did perform informal training Do you know if he, in Wo a io EFTA00059189

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 320 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) w other information, aside from what he’s telling you? ee: Right. Yeah. He told me MS; so, this one is - I want to get your take on this matter - so, this is t 5:30, but she wu ayed at the institution at least until 9:30, and sent out that email, detailing, you know, what day, and the fF log, and the daily activity log. So, Po sent her an email on 8/12/2019, stating, ‘ii a. I am reminding you to submit your supervisory memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that occurred on 8/10/2019. Please have it complete and ready for submission on 8/13/2019.” She responded with no, addressing nothing, just saying, just responded simply, “In your email, you state, n quote, ‘I am reminding you.’ End quote. I haven’t spoken to you or anyone else regarding the incident involving inmate Epstein or anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. EFTA00059190

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 w ~] So, how is it possible for you to be reminding me? Second, I had been properly relieved, prior to the incident involving inmate Epstein.” What is your take on that email? ae: First of all, any major incident that takes place in the institution, we have to do what is called a report of incident. ae : He is well within the scope of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, where is -. And I don't know if he was asking her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the shift ae . You know, when this incident took place. So, technically, you should have been doing the packet. So, he is probably contacting her for that. a : Well, she was relieved at 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the incident happened at 6:30. And again, she was there at least until 93:30. And she did respond to the SHU afterwards, helping with the feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? EFTA00059191

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 322 a : I mean, she said she responded to the incident? onded after the incident, to help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with she -. Well -. , somebody told her that the hung himsel te] c he was there. around, working on matters that she needed to catch up on. i manipulating those numbers on Ph stuff. EFTA00059192

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 323 question. I have, I have a medical emergency. A suicide, right? That is an emergency ev in the institution has to respond to. Ee: «= So, you think that she So, that, but -- emails. And I would think that she would have ild think she left. you leave and come ba have o o ri) 3 saying that of the first responders up to the unit. | tsti‘iés*@s That’s a really good e emergency. EFTA00059193

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LIMITED o oO Fh rt a wu rt building, Oo oo EFTA00059194

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE N Ww w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 on her administrative responsibilities -- ee : -- so, is that a problem, then, as a: What do you mean you are working on the administrative? You should have responded to that emergency. a : No. But - and I don’t want to speculate on when you are there - but I just, there is just some questions -- MR. HAYES: Wait, and I think -- MR. HAYES: -- that is a yes or a no -- MR. HAYES: -- you know, question. ae: Yeah. I mean, it’s a problem. If you are saying I am working on it, okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I need to, because once they had said, hey, I have a suicide or something going on, which is probably over, you know, a real medical emergency, and you hear the transmission on the radio, you are going to go up there. So then, you say, oh, I went up there later, to help with the feeding. Either way, you were in the building. The captain is asking you, it Ww N wi EFTA00059195

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE uld have writte tolerate, but if you had given me a memorandum like this, we would be having a ion. You know? propriate. I mean, that’s the way -- ee : I mean, I read it. I thought it was inappropri | tsti‘iés*@s I just didn't know how -- ae : I would ha you know, first, are you EFTA00059196

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 all ri And then, secondly, what is this? 3 5 8 9 just didn't do her job? 10 a : I don't know. 11 Ee : We don’t know. That’s -. 16 ER: «Sik you hear about making statements oo t ie) Again, I don’t want to make i) i) ho ie) Ww I RR i= wu K No EFTA00059197

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ~] oO 10 11 Ww N co MR. HAYES: I would hate to -- | tti‘aiézél; You never heard it. ME: Richt. MR. HAYES: -- I would hate to give my own client a hard time. MR. HAYES: But, but it sounds to me like ~ un Ss oO if) Q ot three hours where she knows this guy o is dea MR. HAYES: You know? And she don’t say much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck is going on? Excuse my language, by the way. I have a filthy mouth. a: No. I mean, I understand what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my point of view is - and my concern - is -- MR. HAYES: Yup. Hs: «Ss -- «if you were there -- MR. HAYES: Your concern is, you would have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked her a question first -- EE MR. HAYES: -- rather than jumping into, EFTA00059198

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LIMITED 1 oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 329 which is -- what I did. Being started this shift 10:00 p.m. the g EFTA00059199

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE vt) Lo know. If she went in and she altered the shift, did yrong? a : -- let’s just say, you know, the fact that the inmate wasn’t moved until midnight, and then the clarification, and the count, the count numbers being changed in somewhere along the way, someone altered those numbe Qo EFTA00059200

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 331 s) iB r = K tl in | | ct J o be if) n f: el ue] 2) n 0 io) WwW ct rt i an (D bh 3 a count. Right? wi ie] Oo Cc o ct | | c te) Institutional count. ive) 15 (Indiscernible *03: 16 MR. HAYES: -- I got to shut up. 18 its) 23 MR. HAYES: Right? 24 count entered, right? 25 that, at s point, the count was EFTA00059201

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 3 Ww <) a : The count was wrong. there was 73. went back and char numbers to But what is her motive -- EFTA00059202

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 Ww WwW os) Ee : -- that midnight -- MR. HAYES: -- to do that? ee : -- she says she was just trying to make things accurate. MR. HAYES: But what would be an ulterior motive that would create the idea that she was doing something wrong? Ee : It goes back to when you ae : Mm-hmm. ee : -- is there something to do with a cover up? a : So, if - and granted, mistakes are made in the log - but you also annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, okay, late entry. Because typically, if you say the log is done already, when you go back and make changes, you make changes for this reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks like you’ve been playing, you went back and just changed the numbers. So, you can put in there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain what your change was, and what the mistake was. MR. HAYES: So, really, with this -- EFTA00059203

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE vt) Wo rf 2 MR. HAYES: -- to show a malicious intent 3 in her part, there’s got to be something that 4 influences her to protect one of the people 5 that were - no question - were fucking around. 6 Right? The two guys that were fucking around ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one 8 of them is her friend, then she’s got a 9 malicious motive to go try and cover for that 10 guy. Like, did $8,000 (Indiscernible 11 *03 58) police officer, he says, well, I 2 thought he drew a gun on me. 3 HE: Right. 4 MR. HAYES: And I shot him. 15 ae: Yeah. 16 MR. HAYES: Oh, okay. Nobody else saw 7 that 9 ee : But you are not aware of 22 Ee : -- covering up for them, 23 or involvement in Epstein’s death? No. She wouldn’t have had No rs 25 that conversation with them. EFTA00059204

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 335 he called me and he says, 13 15 And did 17 n to the next sub - do you 18 have more on that 21 talk about the cameras. and 10th of 2019? EFTA00059205

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 336 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to see if they were, were recording or not. | tti‘aiézél; Did you learn that they were not recording? ee: Yeah. We found out afterwards, that they weren’t recording. MR. HAYES: Wait. Wait. We had this conversation. MR. HAYES: The cameras don’t work ina lot of these institutions. Right? MR. HAYES: Yeah. Yeah. MR. HAYES: All right. And that’s because they didn't spend the fucking money to make sure the cameras work. ae: Well, it’s -- MR. HAYES: And I got to stop saying “fuck.” ae: -- that’s the issue, too, funding, and, you know, so, since that incident, I guess there was some audits done by the agency, and they realized that it was kind of a system (Indiscernible *03:57:15). MR. HAYES: But you see, the issue is, should you have checked why weren’t the cameras working? EFTA00059206

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo © iat) OFFICIAL US documentation. Were ISE 337 Ee : Well, that’s my question © you know why they were not working? ae: I don’t know the specific that was us and what was wrong with a determination on what was why -. What he reason. I know we were going through rocess of auditing and fixing some as. But those specific SHU came ‘t aware of the extent. er provided any documents of a camera that actually was working with this? This is right o1 EFTA00059207

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LIMITED OFFICIAL Ww Lo ee) K ) i et o fh =] D 3 South. 1 BP QQ t provided with that, as far as -- o H rt t | | 9 don’t -- he might h Yeah. I o EFTA00059208

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE vt) Wo io South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone that - do Ss -. Yeah. you know right there? That is Ten South. It looks lik And what are we looking the, right here - based upon what tier that would be Oh, man. You got stopped. Let me see. I think, if I remember. And what would be right officer's Oh. Wait. G. H. I. J. A. I don’t remember if that was I and J. Tha ee : Would this be L tier up M tier. That’ K oO wu a t w 5 ie} ficer’s station, looking at e EFTA00059209

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LIMITED 1 oO oO co OFFICIAL USE 340 as on the L initialing and dating that? Ee : And this is where Epstein 0 K i) like what EFTA00059210

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFIC yuldn’t the number -- I'm taking Yeah. I don't know the 341 And is that a camera at king right EFTA00059211

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 342 2 ee: That is a camera. recording? 4 ee : Sir, do you know if the Ww 5 Tr bp K ret 5 camera was recording? 6 ae: I didn't see. After I left, 7 I guess they said there were camera issues, but 8 I don’t know what, I 9 information on w specific cameras were 10 working or not. 11 ee : So, they didn't tell you 2 if they were working or not? 3 Well, remember, I was 4 5 : I just didn't know if you 16 found out on the 10th or 11th. 7 ee: No. I was removed on the, 8 you know, they said there were some camera 9 issues, and then, what they 20 had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and 21 I guess they were working to see what was 22 working and what wasn’t workin 23 a : Can you initial and date 24 that? Ee : I'm not going to get into EFTA00059212

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) ies) 1 this since he wasn’t aware that they weren’t recording. 3 a : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. HAYES: Boy, I'm impressed 5 thoroughness, I’11 tell you that much. 6 ee : That’s why they put me on 9 MR. HAYES: You’re very thorough? 11 MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a 2 good trial lai r, you know, allegedly a good 3 trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not 4 supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to 15 put an idea in the jury’s head, right? Where 16 you can see they’re invulnerable, stay on that 7 fucking idea, because if you are going to be 8 thorough, you have to bring out something that 9 you don’t want to bring out. You know, so you 20 to speak to the things, but you know you got 21 them. 23 | tsti‘iés*@s So, this is an email that 24 was received. Who’ 25 ee : He’s the facilities manager. 03) EFTA00059213

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 344 wanted Hold on. Now, did you 3 print sent you this morning? 2 t y tl g 4 - ould be wi rt a ~ bh oO are not aware if the c 0 wu =| M H wu a = oO 4K o ct recording -- camera —— b D 3 w u] B w tn f i) it institution. F Ww ct S H fe) ra a Oo rs ct rt s 0) } I don’t know which its) But when it came to that night, I didn't know if they is) ra _ RR pb 5 ‘oF oO ia s ie] + : Were you ever told that, ho 3 K Ww 0) B ct = om a] on August 8th or August 3th, that the K is) wu =} it) K 7] 7) were not recording in the SHU? sara — ho wi H :) EFTA00059214

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LIMITED 3 - 6 Yeah, no -- -- when it happened. 1s Oo EFTA00059215

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 fen) ies) comtech | a. and may have anything about that? 6 ae: I knew prior that there was some cameras in the institution that needed to w Za oO w int oe on 1] b bh v) o oO =] ct 5 oO rt n ue] o Qa Bb ht bh ao i] be be rt ae oO oO i=) K oO w =e 1 ee : And would have that been 2 based upon what they found? The || | | and ive) issues wi 16 funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, 7 what was working and what to get fixed. But 8 cifically, in SHU, no 9 20 because, you said that you were trying to get 22 cameras at itution, and that’s what 23 replace when the FBI took the 24 cameras on the 10th, they were able to ial ims 25 immediately replace them with the cameras th EFTA00059216

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 347 Ke 0 K o oO 5] w F ct o 3 Institutions always 4 to fix what is th 5 funding to replace the whole tem. 6 8 moer. 24 is an of your tember llth, 2018 25 this is a orandum for -- EFTA00059217

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 348 the number 8158, 12 MCC New 13 the current degraded camera EFTA00059218

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 349 ’ a phone number.’ And then, here are the, you know, the work orders for that. So, we have 2>n with SigNet, who was the camera provider Mm-hmm. said th Mm-hmm. And then, talking with Mm-hmm. und March 2019. installed, and said that -. 4 iT =) fu on rt fe) KK c = H ) wn tw c ct EFTA00059219

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 350 1 ee: In order, because you needed 2 the comtechs, and I forget the wording that 3 they used, is to run the cables, to get the new 4 camera system in So. wi And do you know how long oO that typically takes to run the new wires and 7 all that? 8 ee: You would have to have the 9 staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't 10 have the staffing. 11 ee : So, were there two people 2 TDY’d, though, in order to do that? 3 a: They started TDY’ing people 4 in, to come in. 5 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Can the staff 16 run the new wires, or you have to get an 7 electrician to run the wires? 8 ae: No. We have staff that are 9 qualified to do it, but then, some of them were 20 new and really didn't know how to do it. So -- 21 MR. HAYES: Okay. 22 a : -- you know, it was -. 24 | it says, “The camera 25 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it stem was EFTA00059220

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE vt) wo ray 1 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 2 February 2019, we only had one communication 3 technician -- 5 Hs: 9S therefore, after 6 talking to the regional office, they started a 7 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 8 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 9 for the camera -em, and all other 10 infrastructure throughout the institution. 11 MR. HAYES: St. Patrick’s Day. 2 a: Mm-hmm. 3 Ee : Below is the email sent 4 to all the institution from Fs Bond 5 (Phonetic Sp. *04: , the northeast fea] regional -- -- facilities oo 9 administrator.” But point being, it looks like 20 that project had started. Correct? 22 Ee : And I only say that 23 because I wanted to make sure you weren’t arted, but -- 24 confused, because you were s ng we were looking for funding. EFTA00059221

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5 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ee: No. No. I misspoke. What vt) iss) WwW n rt ow in ct oO oF o co = + a D a fu =| oO kR ra] a) a fu ion =) ct a oO o =] ai oO ue] a fu 0 oO o 4 for the, 5 7 ee : So, that unit still had the oo o pan o ie) rl] =| @ k wu it) 12 a: Well, yeah, but they weren’t f to install, to, Ww | 14 you know, to rewire the whole place, because we 15 had, we wanted to 16 that never had cameras. oo tedious its) No NN No iat) a oO = | i) K i) wu a 25 apprise of where they were on that? On the EFTA00059222

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo KK Ww OFFICIAL USE 353 camera project. ee : I would acquire about it, with it. But bringing it done. And do you know right - it was a matter of before you even wiring for it. done. provided EFTA00059223

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 354 1 you with an update as far as, like, when it 2 would actually be completed? ies) It was still ongoing. Now -- wi 6 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04 7 ee : -- but after I left, they got people in there and completed it. 10 think, I think that whole week, they were able fos) wo H 1 to complete the whole thing. Correc 2 a: I don’t know when. 3 4 ad 5 16 Ee : Now, is that, did they 7 ever, did the facilities manager, Captain fos) SS oO 3 i) ny H ~ ever explain to you how bad the 9 system was, and that it kept on shutting down, 21 recording? 22 a : I mean, we would have incidents where, you know, something would No Wa 24 happen, and we tried to go back and find the 25 tape, and we couldn’t. and it would break EFTA00059224

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 1 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 2 have issues like that before. But it was the ies) age of the cameras. The -- you know, we had wi i} i} oO 8 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 9 been, I mean, he’s a very soft-spoken person, 10 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 11 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 2 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 3 continual problem. 4 Ee: So, here is what it is. We 5 don’t have money readily available at an 16 institution to fix it. That money comes from what we call buildings and funds. 9 a : Which is funded by Congress. oo 20 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 21 region about what the regional budget but 22 other institutions have issues going on. EFTA00059225

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oy LIMITED OFFICIAL USE vt) cA 1 cameras already y had already done th at least six wiring ies) months prior to this -- 4 ee: Well, not all the wiring -- wi | | 7 MR. HAYES: Yeah. He just, he didn't say 8 the wiring was done. 10 No, no, no. I'm just and who was i Nh Hh i) iv] ea Hh fe) Ki > fu ct wu o rt n @ ue] paar wu 5 za o K 0) ive) 16 time, we only had k ies] Ey | oa 5 =] 20 taff No N w i fu staff came, they did help. You know, but then, 23 other TDY staff that were coming in 24 95 25 EFTA00059226

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE time or we wanted to =] Te} 3) i) HK tt) u oing responsible. installed. as, you know, We And whos responsibility that those be operational and working not a matter of ll, it’s working on o fe) jon © wu on e bh 5 O wu it be No. It’s not. EFTA00059227

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE vt) wi oe) Ww a oc fs K 3] | | that can't be true. know how to install it. w fos) 4 12 MR. HAYES: That can't be right, either. 14 MR. HAYES: Because how the 15 know what -- b o | | HK bh. Q rt et | | t Les] a r P K U HAYES: -- who the right people is. And EFTA00059228

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LIMITED ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) w OFFICIAL USE Ww uw to the DVR recording to see if there has a light on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and you are unable to. ee: Mm-hmm. ee : Because everything is still live monitored feed, showing, so you can't tell just by looking at the cameras. a t’s only when you try to rewind them, that you can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. a: Right. But that, it wasn’t just as simple as that. I mean, there were technical aspects of it that you had to check to see if the cameras are working or not. ee : Oh. Absolutely. ae: Right. And the captain basically looking to if) ee if, okay, is the screen up? And then, is it recording? But there was some ances where the hard drives weren’t working, and you don’t know that until you get deep into it, into the system. So, I wouldn’t, you know -- a : -- that’s what he just n rt fu ct o Q EFTA00059229

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 360 2 a : Like, the fact that the only ) 3 way we would know if the hard drives were not 4 working is by going in -- 7 the video, there is no videos 8 9 10 when 1 hard drives stopped recording. 2 a: Stopped recording. And 3 then, and look at But then, this is, 4 know, there was other technical aspects of it 5 that, you know -- c fo) a ae) P K 1] nH H oO wu 5 rt a 3 i Q Pp =] oO rt ag wu rt | | oo rs] joey K 1) at I I ct 7 o Q y ue] ct wu p. 5 = 0 rat a om oe! 5 Oo = + No ox) ue] RR fe) Oo BP @ 5 wu =] jon rt a @ fh fu a ct ct a ny ct = @ b > fu ct = 0) 24 didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the 25 cameras actually stopped recording all the back EFTA00059230

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 361 and for half of the institution. Who should have made sure ies) and that w oO 7 and I don’t know where 8 if it’s a centralized area, then it would be, 9 u know, within our facility department has i=) acce 4 the cameras are? 5 ae: -- no, the comm room. 16 Ee : Yeah. The comm room. 7 Where these recorders were, were all in the 8 sec 9 : The actual 20 But where - if you go out - where -? Where 21 don't know the word, what’ the wor it) 22 your centralized main area is for the whole That SIS areas has the cameras. Ee : Not the control roo EFTA00059231

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO fos) wo ive) fea] co its) iat) w OFFICIAL Vokh ) But it’s back around where, it’s a locked door within the SIS locked room, where the actual VR recording and rack is, and hing. bet it) w oD institution, just for the communications. here everything comes into. So, I don't know if it was back there or whatever, but our you know, their ck that, too, if there 7) bw a. or a. how do you pronounce his name? of them expr things fix USE 362 EFTA00059232

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE = H 3 ) wu 5 cr io” 0) K i) Q Cc ) wo cr fag wu on Oo i) i] 3 ies) oO wo 13 schedule for when it was actually going to be 14 complet 15 16 pec 17 couldn’t get them. co know, boil down to mon wo in to come fix them. 20 ee : And when people are TDY, say boil down to money - N Ww H os 0 oO =| O) ifs) oO Cc + oO Ph fe) i K \ \ is] EFTA00059233

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 364 1 budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out 2 of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top 3 of that, we were for TDY to come to our 4 correctional post, because we were so short. wi All right. So, what 6 would you say is then, that 7 the cameras were onsite, but not installed? 8 Lack of manpower and funding? wo : Well, manpower to get it in. 10 And then, it kind of boiled down 11 You know, to keep TDY people, to 2 MR. HAYES: But do you have 3 really keep the TDY people. You 4 money -- 5 Yeah. 16 MR. HAYES -- you can't keep them You 7 know? 8 But again, there is no, 9 there was no actual set schedule of it will be 20 operational by the end of this calendar year -- 22 Ee : -- or anything like that? 24 es : That wasn’t discussed? 25 ee : That wasn’t EFTA00059234

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Ww a wi 1 were trying, you know, doing the best we can 2 with the hand we were dealt. 3 ee : Okay. And Monday morning 4 quarterbacking that. Should it have been 5 discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras 6 be installed? 7 a : Would -? I don’t understand 8 the question. 9 ee : Well, being that there 10 is, it seems that there was potentially around 11 two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no 2 cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten 3 South. 15 ee : That were recording. 16 a: But that wasn’t known -- 7 Ee : But it was, according to 8 the, you know, according to the facilities, as 9 well as the comtech, they said it was very well 20 known that this continually happened, and that 21 the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard 22 drives because they kept on crapping out and 23 not recording. 24 a: I mean, it is an antiquated 25 system. EFTA00059235

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LIMITED No No No e No iN ies) w fos) wo co © iat) OFFICIAL USE 366 go down, obviously, you go fix it. But nob You know, I mean, you go to institution, the cameras go som far to follow a : You mentioned no But the problem was, ac ding to the comt the motherboard had to be of course, no one EFTA00059236

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 367 the Po went in and they tried to Right. Now, being Mm-hmm. a : -- how soon should it have been fixed? What do you ae : This is two days before the, that, that Epstein was found. If they identified on the 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not working. It’s technically not recording. How much o fh wu fre} K b fe] 5 be cr I i) b ct t Oo make sure that those cameras are up and running immediately? happens is, and we have run into this before, It’s a priority. where and call for the parts, and depending on where it EFTA00059237

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 368 1 is at, it could be in California, or whatever. 2 So, you got to see how long it takes to get ies) w fos) 11 a : My understanding is they, it 12 was the hard drive that they needed. Right? b Ww A 5 a the hard drive was sitting with the vices. 15 ae : Yeah. On the 8th. They 17 ee : I don't know. b oo i! rm) uw J 19 ee : And on the 9th, they got 20 it. But then, he he wasn’t able to 8) aa w bh 3 nH ct =) fw rt 21 gain access to the om because it was an & shop, and he needed to go until later in the EFTA00059238

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ee: -- we have an emergency keys Ww a wo 2 to get into any area of the institution. So, 3 if he is saying he couldn’t get in to the SIS 4 office -- 6 ae: -- you got the captain, you 7 know, we got the techs that work in there. 8 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 9 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 10 can get that box open. 11 ee : So, he said that the only 2 way to be able to get into it is if he broke ive) the glass -- 4 Ee: He can break the glass. 16 that he would have done that? And then, should 8 ae: Yeah. If you couldn’t 9 reach, you could just -. Well, he should have 20 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 21 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 22 Ee : Do you think it’s at all 23 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 24 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 25 working on it, or at least, I guess he was EFTA00059239

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 working on getting the parts, but then got the parts again on the, some time on the 9th, claims he didn't work on it because he couldn’t get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was going to work on it on the 10th, on that Saturday. a: So, the question -- Ee : -- and what is your -? a: -- the question I would pose to you is, did he notify anybody that he couldn’t get in there? Did he make any attempt to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, I need to get into that office to get a part to do it, because if he had told the captain that, the captain would have got that office open for him. ee : Yeah. I agree with you. It’s a he says that the MCC was a different -. So, at any other BOP institution, in the country, that would have happened with, his experience taught him that, at the MCC, basically it could wait until tomorrow. MR. HAYES: They wait until tomorrow. a: So, so that’s his opinion. But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who EFTA00059240

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 371 1 did he bring up the issue to? Because my thing 2 is, if you know it’s an emergency, and it’s a 3 situation is a cop-out. would that be wi ie] be wu or) cameras are down, oO H Hh ct a 1) J het i) uT] en 8 Ee : That is an emergency. So i=) a: Let’s get them back. 11 ee : -- he should have gotten into that room -- Nm my] ion n ie) Pp cc ct ) be ive) oc ci) should have gotten -- P ~ wo - -9 5 ae: -- in there, and he knows he 16 gotten into the room, because you 7 can, we can break - if he said that stuff was 8 sitting in there, whatever room he said it in 9 there, guess what? You can break glass. You 20 can break glass after hours, if you need to, to get in, into an area. 23 has rebuilt these things so many times. And 24 every knew that these cameras needed to be 25 reinstalled, and he had been saying that they EFTA00059241

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) needed to be reinstalled. And now he’s being looked at as the fall guy. MR. HAYES: You know, it sounds like he could, you know -. ae: I don’t -. This is not an issue of being the fall guy. ee: So, let’s take every issue we just talked about. We talked about the camera project that we were working on. a: We were getting the people in there to working. So now, let’s talk about the specific issue that you were talking about. He did not notify anybody to get into that room, to get to that part. That part was to 'S fix the current system. It had nothing to do with the new system coming in. This is, he is saying that this was a part that we needed to fix, get put in, to deal with the current system. Ee : Now, what about the fact that Po is saying both she and the i knew that the cameras were down on August 8th. They told YY to fix them. And Ww ~—) N EFTA00059242

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 373 1 they also notified I so that 2 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 3 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 4 being down on the 8th. 6 ee : So, at that point, what are the responsibility of the captain and the oO fos) So, what the captain does is 10 FY works for, 11 the cameras are broken, you need 2 to fix them. 3 Ee : So, should the captain 4 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 15 were fixed? 16 a: Well, I don’t know what 7 conversation he had with facilities to say we 8 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 9 not. 20 MR. HAYES: Well, do you know 21 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 22 somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it 23 on the 9th? 24 HS: «Well, the %th isa 25 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that EFTA00059243

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LIMITED ho ho ho No i) ive) w wo fea] oo © Ww OFFICIAL USE 37 h 0) was told, informed, learned. -- but that’s my point. You you were made aware that the So, your I couldn’t get n io] ct Za ® hould with that, being done. ee : And to them, I don’t, you I don’t want to make the assumption tuld have been EFTA00059244

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 375 I don’t want to speak on it, if he had told him something on I don't know the place between nd what is he is saying, and it makes no sense. Ee : Yeah. No. I would just think that, know, being a captain or an | would be -- i 0) ee : -- whoa. The cameras ar down in the institution? sure would at least ck back in on the 9th, and say -- ee : -- but then, I don’t know, I don't know if, on the 9th, | even came to work. you know, EFTA00059245

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 376 I don’t know. He could have -- oh, well, I'm not going - oO ' co EFTA00059246

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE didn't have acc And Saturday, because I was coming in any that’s what I was going to work on. ee : He’s the com shop. He can go anywhere, where there are computer acceptable answer that he its] not in where monitor room. a : And the room is how, I think it’s a. and the SIA that it for the camera the A oO =] - a J as the keys for Ee : That’s what the EFTA00059247

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 378 that can draw ke you , what from Ee : Well, we were told by Re. the only way he could could have broken the glass. And that time of time it was wu ‘o fw 3 b its) rt om vi] KH it) =] 0 7] m Q ecurity in the institution is EFTA00059248

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LIMITED OFFICIAL WwW ~) £ 3) oO HK t t ct J wu a 07) 73) o Should ha EFTA00059249

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LIMITED ~] Fric Our understanding is, I think about 8:00 p.m. any time during that I EFTA00059250

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 381 to 4H a f ct f ae KR 1) wu + 6 7 So, say 8 9 can, can get in 5 t ive) Right. Especially in the t o Now, who was oo wo EFTA00059251

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 382 N w ~] ive) Ee: 81) ight. ee: -- gets the people in there, but we’re allocating things. But again, I want to say, that was, you know, with manpower. ee : Okay. Now, you’ve pretty much answered this, and you can say it’s the same answer, but I just want to read you the question. What are your thoughts on the fact that the new camera system was there since October 2018, but it wasn’t installed after the Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 2019? a : It’s the manpower. ee : Manpower. ae: Yeah. You know, getting people, qualified people in there to do it. I mean, one person couldn’t do that. It was, and we were putting in new cameras in new areas. So, he needed more people. One person couldn’t do it. ee : Okay. Do you mind just initialing? And don’t have to go through this, just the top is fine. Anything more on the camera issue? MR. HAYES: Oh, Christ. You got more EFTA00059252

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LIMITED oO wo 95 OFFICIAL USE 383 up? was 10th, on August is, “Urgent r leak in hospital regarding Ep Mm-hmm. EFTA00059253

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 w ~] ive) “Please ensure this information is given to the OIG FBI. Thanks.” ee: Mm-hmm. ee : And then, this next one, like you said, is from | to the director. Subject, “Prison guards skip mandatory checks before Epstein’s death.” This, the body says, “Couldn’t see the entire article on my phone, but I wouldn’t be surprised there are staff that are paid contacts for local media outlets. This has also been di 7] cussed at the department level, all the way to the White House. And who knows who may have overheard those + a: Mm-hmm. Ee : Do you know anything about leaks in the media from the MCC? a : So, what happened was, when MMMM came to see me, the issue we had was - and I told him about it - was there was a article in the Post that took a picture of our staff, and our staff rode with Epstein on it. So, I told | about it, and I guess they said one of the paramedics had leaked the EFTA00059254

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) Ww oO uw information. | tti‘aiézél; Like, took a picture of them, like -- ee: Took a picture -- ee : -- posing with him? ae: -- took a picture of them coming in the room, when they got to the emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein being rolled in. And our - what do you call it? - and our staff. So, I talked to || about that, and then, I had also told him that, you know, there might be some staff, you know, because, and I didn't know where it was coming from, because the information was just coming out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, where is this, you know, coming from? So, I called and made him aware, you know, told him about it when he came on Sunday. But the main one was because of the picture in the Post. HE: |= Now, who is it that you suspect would have been leaking information to I couldn’t, I couldn’t even tell. But I just was, you know, with this whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had EFTA00059255

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LIMITED ho ho ho No i) ive) w wo fea] oo © Ww OFFICIAL USE 38 MR. HAYES: That’s my boy. I mean, I don't know nothing. ernible *04:31:48). talking like an wu rt ct oO KK = m Ke MR. HAYES: But like that, I don’t know nothing, but what I I don’t know. I mean, the half of it was towards me. I mean, Ee : No. I said it was towards 3 oO information -- EFTA00059256

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LIMITED No No No e No iN | | ke i) wu a H ct i o 0 kK ct oO jen on w 0 a ies) w fos) wo fee) ~] its) iat) OFFICIAL USE het Oo c to me. Uh-huh. Hs: «So, I mean, that’s, know, and it was just, it was fast and furious. things to ople, you believe someone in the BOP was leaking negat you give me, like, an example of what was leaked about you? Well, I mean, you know, , you know -- MR. HAYES: Listen, the -- ee : -- and I'm not saying -- MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *( -- right. Towards me. it was just automatically the blame was, you Wo =] J EFTA00059257

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFIC her part of it was, I department. I from the institution. oing, you know -- was ae : No. I didn't hear if it was a certain person. I didn't, information yu know? And did initialing and dating that? though, somebody in the BOP was leaking information? ae : And I’m not -- Ee : And I don’t mean that EFTA00059258

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LIMITED oO ive) o co OFFICIAL USE 389 personally. I just mean -- one the partment, b going up to them. I information -- Because it could be -- h. oe | or | < Q ty | ' i) iy EFTA00059259

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LIMITED oO Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 390 So, I don’t wa anything about Epstein changing his will just prior to learn about it I Or hearing it on the uo Pp o Oo = D EFTA00059260

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 4 MR. HAYES: He left this all to his 5 brother. Right? 7 MR. HAYES: Is that true? 8 Ee : -- I can't comment on 9 that kind of stuff. But what actions should 10 have been taken, or you don’t know if it was. , 11 If it was learned that Epstein’s will had been 2 changed just prior to his death, do you believe ive) any specific actions should have been taken? 4 Ee: I don’t know anything. I 15 mean, I can't comment on that. 16 7 last of the topics. Now, we have - 8 (Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don’t 9 think we have to refer to anything other than 20 the - where is that? 21 The after action? 23 And I don’t know what we actually need to cite 24 (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This 25 is the after action report. Is that -? That EFTA00059261

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) the BOP created in response. So, just a few quick questions on it. It says, “On August lst, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented they were notified by correctional systems of a form received from the United States Marshal oO Service, the previous day, stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies.” ee: Mm-hmm. ee : Do you know anything about that, and what transpired? Ee: Wait. Read that again. a : So, “On August.” So, just to refresh your memory of a time, timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of psychological -- a: Psychological observation. Ee : -- observation. ae: Right. ee : And goes to the SHU. “Two days later” - so, there’s July 31st and August lst - “8:30 a.m., psychology documented they were notified by correctional systems of form received from the United States Marshal Service, the previous day.” So, I guess on July 30th. vt) fe) EFTA00059262

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo © OFFICIAL USE vt) wo ate Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies.” This was the BOP’s finding. Do ut that? fu you know anything a : I don’t know anything about ee : No. That was after he Ee : Or potential harm from I didn't. You don’t know anything ay. And do about the suicidal was showin | tsti‘iés*@s No. All right. And then, on the same date, August lst, 2019, after the again, this is EFTA00059263

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LIMITED oO wo ive) oO co wo No Ww OFFIC AL USE 394 not recommendation for follow up in one week. The in conducting this tive findings. ee : We just want to know your EFTA00059264

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 395 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 next one. It says, “Significant -- MR. HAYES: Don’t bring this guy in on another case. All right? If the next time this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring this guy, don’t fucking do it. ee : It says, “Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding admission/release status, ARS.” Ee : Sentry does not reflect inmate Epstein being escorted from the institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand form is on file, documenting -- Ee : -- having received him from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional review revealed inmate Epstein departed the institution for a total of four court appearances, and only one of these occasions was an ARS change made within Sentry. It appears there is a culture of foregoing this vital function, due to the likelihood of the inmate returning from court. This lapse in procedure is a severe inmate accountability EFTA00059265

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LIMITED Ww w wo fea] ~] No Ww OFFICIAL USE vt) wo o fi iu) a can outc it, you said, he we but they can outcount him in that area. | tsti‘iés*@s All right. And what are him or EFTA00059266

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397 LIMITED 3 ) the 6 you 8 1 he 13 15 And that’s what t o on 23 is no EFTA00059267

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE vt) io co All right. The one, “No notations concerning a requirement for a cellmate were entered into the SHU program, and subsequently available for officers to reference. Who would have been A: «Sf icst of all, what is the a: The SHU program is -- Ee: -- with the 292s. So, I don't know, from what I unde rstand, and was told after the fact, that they couldn’t find the information on Epstein in the SHU So, I don't know how you came to that conclusion. MR. HAYES: By the way, let the ee : Right. So, I don't know EFTA00059268

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE vt) fe) ite) 1 where that conclusion came from because from 2 what I gather, they couldn’t get - they 3 couldn’t find the -. Because usually -- 4 ee : Well, they found the wi ie] wo Np o ioe i] rt ct a o het = K oO Ww. c n rt 0 K bet bb b 3 p ct oO roy oO oO ght. The 292s u i) is] ually had 7 to have everything indicated on it. So -. 8 Ee : And on that note, we were 9 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 10 and it should have been larger. Had you 11 anything about people removing documents from 2 files? 3 a: From what I understand, and 4 was told, that there was no file. They 15 couldn’t -. They had every other inmate’s 16 file, but not his. 7 Ee : They couldn’t even find 8 it. You didn't think they could find his file 9 at all? 20 HS: «Xo. 0s That’s what was told to 21 me 22 Ee : And who told you that? 23 ee: I think I heard that after 24 the fact. I don’t know if the regional 25 director told me after they came in and did the EFTA00059269

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 400 1 check, that they couldn’t find it. So, I don't ies) a) HAYES: That’s after they found out 4 the Hilary Clinton -- Yeah. wi 6 MR. HAYES: -- came down and had them 7 (Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain 8 (Indiscernible *04:40:45). 10 Ee : But back to the original there or no ive) it, the cellmate 4 requirement was not entered in the 5 who should made sure that it 16 a: On the, in the 292? And I don’t know who was doing it. It should have Les] on i) o =] rt a wo b be i) c ct i) o wp i] rt to ensuring that it’s all 20 ee : So, the SHU lieutenant? 21 GN: hen they - yeah - when they 22 deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain No ox) conveyed the information to him, that should 24 have been put on the EFTA00059270

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 22 OFFICIAL USE 401 OIC on the night watch. Ee : So, would one of them hac nsibility to been done on the initial, when the directive was put out. Imeri s ying that coming off of chological ob ion, he needs to be with a cellmate -- EFTA00059271

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 402 That would have o So, who, at in t from the - to doing that. Oo oo EFTA00059272

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFIC institutions w i) 0 wu c & 0] all belongin will tell wu kK 0) con going we show this wrong? And the whole A EFTA00059273

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LIMITED -- when 3 document -- oO 10 Ee : So, and this was when a 11 lot of things, wQ first starting this 12 investigation, we heard was court, court, 13 didn't return from court. Oo 17 like -- 21 without 1 released from court. 25 So then, I'm just going EFTA00059274

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 405 1 to read the question. If the documents list Reyes as being WAB, and if they had the ies) transfer list, why did they say he went to 4 court and did not return? I can't answer that. wi 7 Epstein was provided a social call by the 8 institutional duty officer.” Does that mean 10 a: Yeah. He was the duty 11 officer at that time, I believe. 2 WENN: 9 and what does the institutional duty officer mean? 4 Ee: So, what the duty officer wu ive) 15 is, is after hours, they walk around and, you 16 know, report emergencies, you know -. 7 MEN. s that, like, the 8 highest ranking official there? 9 a : That comes on at night. You 20 know, there with the lieutenants. But they 21 just make sure that if we had any issues, you 22 know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like 23 that. 24 es : So, they are kind of, 25 like, the, basically the OIC for the EFTA00059275

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oO C 1 institution? 2 ee: Kind of. I wouldn’t say the 3 OIC, but you know, senior staff around. 4 “This call was 5 done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely 6 concerning why this call would have been 4 i placed, and why it would be done on an 8 unmonitored line. Without further interviews, 9 it is not possible to determine the re for 10 this call.” Just, why does it say, “extremely I don't know. Both are nN WwW ial o ue) ie) K ct | | 5 find it extremely concerning? Would you 16 4 8 9 So, I wouldn’t, you know, necessarily say, use 20 the word extremely concerning. But I would 21 think, I would -- No N It’s certainly wrong. But -. ee : -- it was an issue. But No Wa ho EFTA00059276

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 w ~] ive) extremely concerning. | tti‘aiézél; Okay. “On August 9th, 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers, with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be returning, and inmate Epstein would require a cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate upon his return to SHU.” My question to you is, just, how did they know this information? How would they have obtained that information? Do you know? ae: I don’t know. Like I said, I don’t know who they spoke to during this after action. a : Were they doing interviews, though? HS: swasn’t there. | tsti‘iés*@s Were they authorized, though, if OIG and FBI are doing an investigation, is the after action team 4 EFTA00059277

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Ny 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 authorized to come in and interview people? ee: So, I’ve done after actions. And there is a point where you come to it, where you, if it’s an OIG or FBI investigation, that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain people because it might impede an investigation. Like, if you are going to look at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you can't because most of the time, it’s been taken. So, I don’t know -. ee : So, possibly from that memo, though, that was created? If they are not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm assuming they are not really supposed to be doing interviews. a: I mean, I don't know who authorized them to come in and do the investigation. I don’t know. It was, you know, who set the parameters on it. I can't speak on that. ee : And is it a normal for them to do something like this, when there is an actual FBI and OIG investigation? a: We do after actions. So, don't know -. 408 I EFTA00059278

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Ee : But I mean, do they do 2 after action oO ite) 3) typically, when there is an open, ies) criminal investigation, though? 4 ee: Not typically. 6 ae: So, I don't know. And 7 again, I don’t want to speculate. I don’t know 8 who authorized it. I don’t know if they got 9 permission from the department to come down and 10 do it. I don’t want to -. 11 ee : Sure. “August 10th, So, this is the day of. Nm ive) 5 is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU 16 inmate Epstein was unresponsive in 7 Sentry does not reflect this 8 entered the cell and 9 attempted to wake Epstein. Control center 20 announced a medical emergency, and 21 cardiopulmonary resuscitation,” or CPR, “was 22 initiated.” So, the question here is, I guess 23 I’ll start with. Well, the information that we 24 have is FY and Noel were there. 25 Po immediately went into the cell. EFTA00059279

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 410 1 fF : Mm-hmm. 2 | tti‘aiézél; Upon finding Eps a : Mm-hmm. 4 ee : Was it appropriate for 5 him to immediately the cell? Ir 6 have he waited for staff to e on site 8 What? 9 -— trained -- 1 To go cell, I would -- no, you wait for enough 14 you open that do ive) 13) t wu Bh D >for 0) (i fea] oo wo EFTA00059280

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LIMITED ies) w + QQ fe) Cc 0 wu 5 b O Oo oO i} | fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE K oO wu > oo wy te H 3 ft Q a) wu e did not. MR. HAYES: -- you make a notation, (Indiscernible *04:48:23). Ee : So, he didn’t appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48: a: Yeah. He didn't appropriate ee : And should have he that from his training experience? ee : Yeah. Yeah. es : “7:36 a.m., inmate n pronounced dead by the emergen c nit. known EFTA00059281

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 physician. And we’ve already addressed this. My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. ES: «Or August 10th, 2019, the two assigned morning watch SHU officers failed to make their designated rounds, or count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate a call for assistance. The medical response to the incident was timely, efficient, and exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS personnel.” Are you aware of how - what information they obtained to say that the SHU officers failed to make their designated rounds or counts? ee: I don’t know. ee : No? And I just say this because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot of this information was provided from you to i. and | | was providing it to whomever, that were —-- EFTA00059282

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LIMITED oO oO oo 95 OFFIC AL USE ats a : But I wasn’t here when this was. think a lot of this stuff, though, was from? No, I don’t. “Institution duty sit SHU each d EFTA00059283

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 1 Additionally, the IDO reports consistently 2 document the condition of SHU as satis tory, 3 when observations have shown the SHU to be less 4 than satisfactory.” Do you have any comment on 5 that? Do you agree with that assessment? 6 ae: Oh, I don't know what day 7 they went in there. Again, when these 8 observations were done, I wasn’t fF in 9 the institution. 10 Ee : Okay. But prior to, when u know about the 11 you were do y ' 2 institution duty officers not routinely 3 visiting the SHU each day as required? 4 Ee: No. I didn't know about t wi ct a fu + fea] Ee : You didn't know about 7 that 8 ae: I didn't. I ensured 9 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 20 made sure the areas were clean. So. 21 ee : Okay. And 22 ultimate responsibility when they 23 the SHU 24 ae: I same thing, to make 25 rounds in the unit. on the inmates. EFTA00059284

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 415 Make sure there are no issues. like you on at night? ee: That’s the du at night, though? - they typically work from, like, 1:00 to 12:00 to 9:00 thought it was explained to me, it was kind of, like, the person in charge when you are not here. other flip side of SHU rounds EFTA00059285

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 416 ~~] 11 Eee : But is it, like, a EFTA00059286

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 417 oO What is the It’s Oo oo 25 Ee : No. It’s what it’s EFTA00059287

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o =] I a =| =] wo 12 GN: «No. =2No. No. I can't ive) w fea] to in the GS level is 15. And that is N WwW 0 fw 5 a re) ct i) 24 basi sally a EFTA00059288

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LIMITED Ww w wo WwW fea] oo its) OFFICIAL Like, USE 419 evel. So, don’t -. He’s being modest. MR. HAYES: I always lik ee : I did not know. I since d him any Your pre-trials Your big lows. Fort Dix. Certain mediums. And you maintained? now? MR. HAYES: You know, man, I really -- (Indiscernible EFTA00059289

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE give law enforcement 4 discount. But I 5 a fucking 6 _— 7 HA: «st (indiscernible a discount. wo w Hh 0) on i) K w b I'm ive) 14 mat fea] oo wo dent makes, what? EFTA00059290

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 4 two 5 7 ee : And never disciplined. When 8 I was given a reason why I was 9 moved. I was just moved. was referred to ' Ww ie] o ct fu = } b 5 a an c on } 3 ct a ry ct i] ue] n ct oO i =] 14 as a black inmate, and by different inmate 16 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. You're kidding me. said he was black? Hell, that was a co know anything fF is] o 0 21 ee : I don't know any hing about No N ct My iv] rt No Ww EFTA00059291

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 422 1 whoever was doing that review. 2 | tti‘aiézél; All right. “SHU has multiple cells equipped with video recording ies) 4 capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in w And there appear w ct Oo ion ye of these cell or) e no oO on when to utilize these cell o i) m ct ite] cc Pp. QQ fu 5 a] 1] 7) ~] So, you already said you didn't believe, like, oe 7 o n a Oo | an ion a ® oa o o o oO 1 : -- let me correct that. 2 None of the cells, none of the cells that we 3 had in SHU were, had cameras in the cells that 4 were being, working and being used. The only ones up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is fea] oo 21 ee: -- nowhere else in there had 24 ae: Ten South, we have it in the 25 cells where you can see -- EFTA00059292

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE t, like, Nine th lower, or something like that? Would Isn’t that, like, the mini Ten South? | | ct Ww Oo H Did that did ) wu 3 ft] KR wu A t 5 i} i} EFTA00059293

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 424 1 a : -- this statement might 2 actually associate Ten South as part of the 3 SHU. 4 ee: Right. Because a lot of 5 people that come in, when they first come in, 6 is part of there, actually part of 7 Nine South. We call it -. It’s part of an 8 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 9 have never been there, they don’t 10 differentiate. 11 ee : So, being that these are 2 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 3 your response to them saying that there appears 4 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 15 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 16 Was there guidance on that? 7 ee: Yeah. Ten South, like I said, was specifically for the SAMs inmates. oo wo 21 ee : -- also believe that that 22 is an incorrect statement, then? 23 ee: If that’s what they are 24 referring to, I do believe it is. 25 Ee : And you believe there was EFTA00059294

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 425 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? ee : For a single cell. a: -- is the one where we had 0) 2 a Hi rs) 5 a 1 that Ten South wasn’t suppos It was actually suppos mean phas EFTA00059295

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 w ~] ive) brought out during the time, after 9/11, to house terrorist inmates. a : Have you ever heard anything about the fact that no one was supposed to be housed up there anymore (Indiscernible *04: 7:12)? ee: No. It’s not -. It’s not to house terrorist inmates. It’s to house inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an inmate housed for espionage. You know? And then -- ae : Was it supposed to have been phased out due to PREA concerns? ee: I didn't -. I don’t know anything about that. a: ee : Okay. The next one is, wa the report also shows that, “A review was done regarding the overtime conducted by the C.0.s ) at the MCC, and the shortage of staff.” It if doesn't say much about it. Do you know what EFTA00059296

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LIMITED K D wu a ct J D BK o a n H 3 a ref 3 | | oO oO oo 95 OFFIC Bh I was relieving an and on some we could. I mean, hiring. We had, I mean, plain what EFTA00059297

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 428 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) We all knew it was an abuse. I mean, we -. We had even had conversations with the IG about, you know, you’re going to the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So MR. HAYES: So -- MR. HAYES: -- they were all using the same doctor? Ee: The same doctor. But again, understand, every agency is short. Ee: I mean, so, we just had that constant problem. MR. HAYES: That’s, like -- ee: You know? MR. HAYES: -- they use some of these -. Some things, they use the same expert witnesses all the time. ae: Right. The hiring. We had a lot of department heads that we would use to cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to make do with what we had. EFTA00059298

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 proper staffing levels? 5 hiring. You know, and get 6 it’s a process. You know? 7 hired, it takes between si And we were working on ting people in. But To get somebody x and eight months. were there a number 9 of people in the pipeline? 10 a: Not really. I mean, we went 11 out and did recruiting, because we were 2 competing with other agencies. 4 Ee: You know? Other agencies 15 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 16 You know? To, to get people on. So, it was 7 just a matter of, you know, getting people on 8 board. 9 ee : And do you think it could 20 have been handled better by some, in some way, 21 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 22 a : There’s certain things we 23 don’t control. Staffing. You know, the 24 budget. We don’t -. I don’t -. We don’t 25 control that. I mean, we can turn around and EFTA00059299

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 430 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, and it said, this is what you are getting, you don’t -. We need to work with what we’ve got. ee: No, and I understand that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, covering SDNY, and having such high-profile inmates. Was there - do you think that there could have been anything done better, though, by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was better staffed? a: You could - so, let’s go TDY - we couldn’t really, could TDY to a point, but then, there are other institutions around the agency that were, you know, the staffing was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out to help, you know? And then, it just brought down the finding. I mean, and getting people to clear your background. Not everybody can clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a job for you, but can you pass the guidelines? BEE: bon. a: And a lot of time, do we know. EFTA00059300

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Ee : All right. So, we’re literally less than half of a page left. ee: Mm-hmm. ee: But this next one is just going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of read it -- Ee : -- along with me because it’s so long. “He was also an inmate who had risk factors for assault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. Although these issues were noted, well documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate.” The report continues. “It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned cellmate. The captain personally instructed the lieutenants, individually. A mass email was distributed by psychology, and it is EFTA00059301

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 432 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 apparent some SHU officers were aware. Although many people acknowledge this is an important fact, ultimately, the final staff responsible for not - or did not ensure the requirement was met, including vital directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and amass email does not ensure -.” (Indiscernible *05:02:20) -- EE . -bmn. Ee : -- “including vital directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and a mass email does not ensure those who truly need that information do, in fact, receive it timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was actually placed with a cellmate when removed from psychological -- ee: Mm-hmm. a : -- observation. After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or a fail safe system established, to ensure inmate Epstein -- a : Mm-hmm. | tsti‘iés*@s -- would have had a cellmate going forward.” So, I guess, first and foremost, do you believe, probably the EFTA00059302

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 433 on le rt e) ke his ct wu primary reason why Epstein was a own life was because he didn't have a cellmate? On top of the fact that they weren’t conducting rounds in St} And counts. Ee : But what I'm asking would it have certainly helped pre. Q p. io) death by one) having an inmate; and two) rounds and counts conducted? a: Oh, if people did their job. ou know? And -. killed himself, he did it. if he a : But the way that the government can better ensure that that doesn't happen is by ensuring that, when it is that someone has a cellmate, they es : And when they do their job, they conduct rounds EFTA00059303

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe would have helped keep him alive today, if, you know, from the government perspective? ee: I mean, again, I'm going to just say, I can't say what would have kept him alive, but I will say, you know, if people made their rounds, did their job, followed instructions that they were given, then it might have -. Could have minimized what, you know -- MR. HAYES: The risk. a: -- you know, what happened. The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he would have done it or not done it. If that would have stopped him. Ee: Now, as far as this last sentence, what they wrote, “After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or fail safe system established to ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate going forward.” What do you think could have been done, and who should have done it? ee: So, directives and the information was conveyed to people verbally, documented on forms, on what you are supposed EFTA00059304

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE up? ee: No, I mean, the sign about doing the 30-minute to me, about tI about the cellmate ee : No. I mean, (Indiscernible )2) cellmate requirement. It was put Dir Staff was spoken to. You know, it’s kind of boiled down to peo doing their job. I mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, in writing, what more do we I'm curious myself -- H 3 ) fu 5 rt ion wu ct io) | | -- I mean -- -- that EFTA00059305

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LIMITED | | ot a wu ct if) ies) w fos) wo ive) oo its) No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE done. iebody’s opinion. morning quarterback that came in and make an opinion. I don’t know what their ulterior motive is -- you think of anything, like, oh, if e he done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. ae: I can't think of anything should m EFTA00059306

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 437 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 keep moving. But is it possible that a list should have been created? That, you know, should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of maybe possible five inmates that you could choose from? a : But I mean, under, you know, different inmates, we can do that, but he was a high-profile inmate that -- a: Mm-hmm. Ee: -- I would have had to get that name and run it up to the department, to see if it was okay. It wasn’t just him. I was going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you to, you know, we’re going to put this guy -. I was, just like with the other ones, sent it up to the department. So, again, it would have been based on who was there. extreme detail that had to go into selection, I think what FY is asking you is, should have there been a list of names that the higher ups signed off on, in case someone was removed, EFTA00059307

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 438 they didn't come back, they were transferred, things like this. Like, that’s what they list wu H i Hh ra Bb bh n ra mh 0] tH Pp ral 1 i} i} I mean -- a : -- as a precautionary could h been, but then it would have still been based on who was day, at the time. he’s saying, like, a list of five people versus ce e or two. So, if this person is not -- either. But maybe of thing. Or I can't, no. I EFTA00059308

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LIMITED 3 hin : ae : 6 done. And we are -) 1 D wu rate in hindsight. Oo 2ur Own oo and we are not the experts. 23 24 re coming in. But BOP 25 is saying, what EFTA00059309

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo © iat) OFFICIAL USE m i) an Right. But -- And what are some things are individuals that are coming in, looking at a situation, that weren’t deeply involved in it. a : But unfortunately, is who going to eventually look at this case -- -- is going to be doing the No. But what I'm if we’re looking at happened in real time, that’s talking ab EFTA00059310

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 had known that, hey, you know what? These names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it would have been a different thought process. a : And was it possible - and maybe you discussed this - was it possible that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have replaced -? Did they have the ability to replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they have to come up the chain of command, for the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate -? a : They were instructed, hey, let us know when - where he’s to have a cellmate at all time - and to notify, let someone know. Because again, due to the individual that he was, you just don’t want to throw anybody. a : Okay. But doesn't that kind of hinder them from taking action? Let’s say, at that point on that day, you are not in the institution, FP was there, I understand. a: There was an acting warden there. You had the executive staff there. EFTA00059311

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 442 1 Just because the warden is not there doesn't 2 mean the institution doesn't run. That’s why 3 you have, you know, people acting on your 4 behalf. You know? That could make -- w 6 ae: -- those decisions. 8 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 9 it sounds like you would have to go over your 10 head to even make that decision, has to go to 11 the regional director level, would the 2 associate warden have the ability to go to the 3 regional director, or would have they known to 4 go to the regional director? 15 ae: So, let’s 16 happen, right? They would have -- 7 A: «ell, it did happen. 8 ae: -- no, I'm saying, as far as 9 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 20 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 21 working. 23 ee: Because I got the government 24 phone. And they’re going to call me and tell 5 me, hey, this is what we got going on. He EFTA00059312

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 443 1 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, 2 okay, let’s see what we have, so we can send it 3 up. 4 ee : So, basically, you were . Someone w oO wu rt] b bh w ion p i) that if the proper notification was being made, up the chain of command -- -- a newer inmate could have wo i=) 11 Ee: That’s why I carried it. 2 That’s why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23). 3 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, 4 even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an 15 issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. 16 a : Okay. And if someone does 7 ask, should the SHU officers have been given 8 the ability? Your answer to that would have 9 been, you have that phone with you, someone 20 should have made that notification. So -- 21 HE: 2 ight. 22 WN: -- someone in the higher -- 23 ee: And they -- 24 ae : -- of command. 25 ee : -- and they would contact EFTA00059313

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 444 ies) 4 off on paper. w But I'm still on duty because you can call me 6 on my phone. fos) Ke O w a 9 two questi 10 and after this -- 11 MR. HAYES: Thank God. versations, and this after-action report t ive) ie] 2) 5 ed those topics, what are of the BOP that allowed Epstein to 17 ee : I'm not -. I mean, that’s - 18 I think -. I can't -. That’s -. You know, 19 like, I - again - I'm culating, and I'm giving personal opinion I'm not -- 21 ee : Again, and I'm not asking o 22 you t 23 24 Or if he could have. 25 What what are the failures of EFTA00059314

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 ~] oO 10 11 the BOP? MR. HAYES: He killed himself because he ain’t stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison. Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - MR. HAYES: Yeah. MR. HAYES: No. MS: ~~ 2s far as what i mental state, and could have he had the ability his 7] : But I can't -- -- but are the failures, as you see them, after we reviewed all this, that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, in this instance? Unless you don’t think that they did anything wrong. No. I'm not saying they did anything wrong. But again, these are things that you are going to find. I mean, right now, I can look at it and say, we’re looking at people not making rounds and all that. But EFTA00059315

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE there’s still an investigation going on. So, I don’t want to sit here and the organization that, you know, of the place. That’s why this is a very ee : -- you know, this was the Ee : So, we’re just -. All I'm simply asking is, what do you think the ra oO c c Lu. oc if) ot problems are, as see them? After heard everything we just five hour a : No. I mean, if we would re not counting. You didn't talk - I mean, you make your rounds in that unit, to check on an inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics EFTA00059316

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ive) oO wo 19 right t all the not go her it) other stu and make You know, we can talk about se rounds, conduct the fact that they didn't What actions could -- still, you were nervous. t, it sounds like i) answer would be, conduct your your counts. Get a -- EFTA00059317

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo © No NN No Ww No OFFICIAL USE vs) iu) ket i) wn | MR. HAYES: 99 times out of 100 iUU, 1T wu wouldn't have happened. MR. HAYES: You know, it’s -. does seem, like, a lot of this was a result Right. So -- saying - p ple not doing - but in all fairness, tein died, 60 suicid i) its 7) ral t Right. ao. thing doing know, people not making EFTA00059318

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 1 of ten, every time you look into something, it 2 is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not 3 counting, you know? So, it’s the normal 4 things. 5 ee : Are these other 6 instances, ~] Single cell. where we find out that they didn't You know, I 9 mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you 10 look at it, and you look at the numbers of 11 single cell inmates But there is instances 12 where, you know, sometimes you do have to put 3 somebody in a cell single. 16 other suicides, and they don’t stop. 17 Some of it is, you know, staff had no there is You know? control 8 over it, and some staff had control over it. 9 ee : And I do apologize. I 20 said that was the last question, but I guess I 21 should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking 22 yourself, is there anything that you should 23 have done differently? Hmm. 24 Pt the MCC warden? EFTA00059319

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE a : As far as what? This situation? Yeah. Just anything that know, like, I should or I could ha done thing. a : I can't think of anything i) b 1) D ling, Warden, ar No. That’s it. there anything you think EFTA00059320

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 451 ae: Not that I can think of. MR. HAYES: You have a right to remain silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, listen, you know? Ee : Yeah. No. We got you. MR. HAYES: Like, I was impressed that did that. He couldn’t go through this. I been to the bathroom, like, I got to got to do this. I mean, I got to make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He just sat there and answered all the questions. a: =2). yen sweating under his And thank you very much - cooperation —- EFTA00059321

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 452 showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. WwW wn 0 ct 7 B is] 4 currently Fs and I am turning off the recorder. w ) oO fos) wo ive) oo EFTA00059322

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LIMITED OFFICIAL U 1 CERTIFICA certify that the fo joing pages 3 an accurate transcript of the 4 sound recording of the Oo 13 15 Oo 18 EFTA00059323