10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00058685

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANC ive) OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL wi w K 8 WITN te) No e c wo is) b ho EFTA00058686

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 2 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of i 3 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 York Field Office, and these are my w credentials. 7 a : This interview with the fos) wo i=) 1 a : Is being conducted as part of 2 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office General investigation. Ww fe) rh ¢ aw o H o & ue} Oo 0 rt fe) RK G 4 Today’s date is O 27, 21. And the time 5 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conducted the OIG New York Field Office located on the oO wu ct 29th floor of One Battery Park Plaza, New York, Les] i) = York. Also present is: 21 credentials. Oops. Here you go. 22 a : This interview will be No WwW a] iu) a a, o o o het 3 oO uw ue] oO a poe fu bw el Q i] a rt 24 95 22 EFTA00058687

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 oO just spell that -- oO EFTA00058688

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a : Thank you. I'm going to provide you with the OIG form III-226/2. It states the following, “United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General. Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provided Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceeding, or both.” The waiver states, “I understand the warnings and assurance stated above, and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has EFTA00058689

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo 19 20 No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 6 been used i) 0) wu Q wu bP a] nw rt 3 m where it is] if you agree, can you please says, “Employee Signature”? Also, print your name right below that. oO Ph Hh c a o O Fh signing on the signature of the And I will -- as the witness, and place the date, and time, and place on there. On the form. 0) your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? Thank know if you did not underst EFTA00058690

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LIMITED Ww w wo WwW fea] oo No Ww 24 95 Zo OFFICIAL USE your Oo rh o bp ag your ID, a signature. current nen curr y, you showed us your of Justice law nd it Thank What is you. umber? interview with in the EFTA00058691

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE o 1 them. I'm going to go -. I'm going to read it 2 out to you. Please let me know if there is any 3 repancies, or you feel that anything is e, and we will correct it. w 6 a : On the record. Anything else oO fee) 2) | a or wu let oy ue] 2 i) u . ai 10 date of birth: a. was interviewed at 1 1 Saint Andrews Plaza, New York, New York, 10007. 2 U.S. Attorney’s Office. Southern District of 3 New York Present at the interview was the 4 General S 5 U.S 16 fF (Phonetic Sp. *( 7 Special Agent . | aa. 8 After being advised of the identity of the 9 interviewing agents, and the nature of the 20 interview, PF provided the following 22 at the Metropolitan Correctional 23 Her background includes a 24 bachelor’s degree in criminology, a master’s in 25 mental health counseling, a master’s in EFTA00058692

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 clinical cou ive) oO 22 son Memorial 23 I did inpatient and 24 with a minor in 25 p, when I was in EFTA00058693

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LIMITED OFFICIAL rh EFTA00058694

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 - I'm no longer the chief tw is + c ve] =] rt - = a] jon it] 6 , I am awaiting a 7 ral office. 8 d what, do 9 what What your ive) wi oO ~] TDY work EFTA00058695

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] oo No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE 12 patients over there now. Anything else on that? Hmm-mm. forensic psychologists.” This is talking about ersees three the time period when you were interviewed. es. I guess, before we do, I | re don’t think it said. When did you first start working with t BOP? When was your enter on Great. Thank you. oversees three forensic psychologists, one staff psychologist, a drug abuse coordinator, and a drug treatment pe ts) specialist. Her duties include ensuring all patients are seen, and the appropriate documentation is completed. She consults on ensures the individual cases, as needed. forensic reports are out on time. all the reports she signs off on. At this time, Po is seeing patients, is seeing more patients than she normally does, due to fing. Her typical hours are 7:0 a hh oO ta -m. to w u EFTA00058696

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 N 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 3:30 p.m. Monday to Friday.” information on the intake process as it relates to psychological services at MCC. All inmates complete the psychological services intake questionnaire” - that’s PSIQ - “themselves. It asks for the inmates mental health history, as well as any symptoms they are feeling at the time. Based off the PSIQ, inmates are rated a care code reading.” a : Okay. First, we interview them. What we do is, we review the PSIQs once they are filled out. If significant items are marked, we will interview the inmate. After we complete the intake screening, we will classify them with a care code. And that will determine how frequently the inmate will be seen. a : Okay. I think it goes into the codes itself. a : Oh, okay. All right. a : “Code one means there are no concerns about the inmate’s mental health status. They have no needs and will not be followed up with, unless requested to, by EFTA00058697

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 either the inmate themselves, or staff.” ME: ov. ee : “Code two means there is some history of mental health issues, but the inmate has them under control. Psychological services will follow up with these individuals monthly.” ee : “Code three are more severe cases, and they are seen every week by psychological services, to ensure the inmate is stable. If the inmate isn’t stable in general population, they will be moved to observation. If they continue to deteriorate, they will go to the hospital.” a : We will try to send them to a BOP medical center. Or we will try to stabilize them in the facility. We have a psychiatrist who is actually, he is a central office psychiatrist, but he was actually located at MCC New York. So, if they started to decompensate the interview, and they were that acute, we would have the psychiatrist see them, and potentially medicate them, and try to stabilize them at our facility. If we cannot do so, then we will try to do an emergency, EFTA00058698

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 what is called a 770, and have them designated 2 to one of our medical centers for 3 stabilization. We don’t have a contract with 4 the hospital here in New York. 5 a : I don’t know if you - what’s 6 - what decompensating means? 7 a : Oh, that means that their 8 symptoms become more acute, their mental health 9 functioning is deteriorating to the point where 10 dence of either severe mood 11 symptoms, like acute mania, or psychosis, where 2 they are actively hallucinating, or have 3 delusions. Or maybe they just stopped taking 4 care of ADLs, as well. 16 a : And that would cause harm to 7 them. Because of their illness. 8 Thank you. Do you have any questions on 21 that? Okay. “Code four inmates are seen every 22 day by psychological services, and are under 23 constant psychological observation.” 24 a : Mm-hmm. 25 a : ‘i pointed out that EFTA00058699

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a code one can be on suicide watch. Often times, those cases involve manipulation techniques used by inmates to get what they want from staff. For example, if an inmate is not getting along with the guard, or they want a new cellmate, they will claim to be suicidal to get out of their housing area. If an inmate does this two or three times, they will be bumped to a code two, so that a psychologist will meet with them monthly. Suicide watch means an inmate is eminently suicidal. If an inmate is placed on suicide watch, they are under constant watch by staff. They have a special mattress, blanket, and smock to wear. And their cell lights are on 24/7.” ee : Correct. ee : “Suicide observation is a lower classification.” a : Psychological observation. a : Correction. “Psychological observation is a lower classification. It is not at all Bureau of Prisons facilities. Everything is the same with suicide observation inmates - psychological observation inmates, except that they are allowed to have their EFTA00058700

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 clothing, and some materials, such as books. Suicide watch can be detrimental if a person is left on it for too long. So, observation is used to see how an inmate is doing before releasing them back to general population.” ae : Correct. So, psychological observation, they are observed constantly, with regard to what they have, they can obtain. They can have those things that you listed. But we have to determine, and sometimes it might be one thing at a time. Like, we might give them their underwear, and see how they do with that. And then, we will, you know, give them a book. But it’s not like once you get stopped down, you get all of those items. ee ee : Okay. It’s determined by a psychologist, and it is notated on their logbook, what they can and cannot have. a : Okay. “Any psychologist at jail can take an inmate off suicide watch, but they do consult with Po on occasion. Many times, the executive staff at the jail meet, and inmate psychological status and services are discussed.” EFTA00058701

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ee : Can you explain to us a little bit more about the meeting? What exactly is discussed? ee : Yes. So, we have, like, Mondays, we have an opening meeting, and Fridays, we have a close out meeting. And Tuesdays, the days may have changed from then to now. I think it used to be Thursdays, used to be a SHU meeting. And so, certain members, all the members of the executive staff are there. And then, certain department heads attend these meetings. And during the meetings, they will ask me, you know, is there anything for psychology. And then, I will discuss the inmates that are on suicide watch. And what my plans is for those inmates. Or if we were discussing the Special Housing Unit, I’1l discuss inmates that I feel need to be observed closely. Should have cellmates. Or may suffer from mental health problems that I feel we just need to keep an eye on, or make sure they are in more visible, highly visible cells. Any mental health concern I have in the SHU, I would EFTA00058702

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 wo 1 mention at the SHU meeting. 2 a : Okay. Anything else? 3 ee : Yeah. I mean, do they 4 have input into psychology? Like, does the 5 executive staff, do they get to provide 6 recommendations, or ask, you know, can this 7 person be taken off, or this person taken off, 8 or this person taken on, or is it -? 9 a : Well, we make the decisions 10 as far as, we’re the only ones that make the 11 decisions her someone goes on watch, or off 2 watch. 4 ae : They may, you know, not agree 15 or whatever, but that’s our decision beca 16 that is our profession. 8 a : But with regard to the 9 logistics in the prison, and how, where the 20 inmates are housed, and things like that. We 21 will make suggestions to executive staff. 23 a : A lot of times - and most of Oo ‘ 24 the time - they do listen to psychology. There 25 may be times they disagree for maybe EFTA00058703

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correctional reasons that, you know, they may have their own ways of viewing where they housed someone. Maybe there will be an inmate up there, or too many that they are separated from, or maybe they are a gang member. I mean, there may be other reasons why they can't follow our recommendations. And so, there might be exceptions to that rule. So, now, pretty much what we do is, if, like, let’s say we have to house somebody alone in SHU. We have to - we put whether we recommend or not recommend. Now, we do that. And I never recommend an inmate be single celled. Ever. So, if they decide, that’s on them. And usually, it’s because an inmate may be too violent, or may be sept out from all other inmates in the facility because they are so, in all these gangs, and they are cooperating. And there is just too many bloods, let’s say, and there are blood, and they may have to be by themselves, or they may have assaulted other inmates, or officers, and they just can't be celled with somebody. For whatever reason. Or the U.S. Attorney's Office has said this EFTA00058704

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) person needs to be by themselves. We’re afraid for their life, at that facility. So, I'm never going to recommend somebody be by themselves because it’s never a good idea. But there might be extenuating circumstances where someone needs to be housed alone, and in that case, you know, we would recommend an increase rounds, or, you know, keeping an eye on that inmate. a : Now, as far as I understand, what you are talking about is when they come off of psychological observation or suicide watch, but when they actually go in and come off of both suicide watch and psychological observation, do they get to provide an input into that, or is that solely a psychology issue? a : Whether they come off? ae: Go in or come off. HS: «No. 0s Just a psychology. Ee: Okay. So, they don’t have any input into that? a : I mean, they may make some EFTA00058705

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LIMITED OFFIC o 4] Thank you. follow wo ive) fea] co wo i) Ww ommend. EFTA00058706

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 = hy 0 i) hb be =| a] rt 1) to fc rt might 2 be custodial issues. 3 Okay. 4 Which preclude them from 5 with another inmate. 6 any inmates 7 ibly having suicide watch, or 8 or -ion, f ho 9 commends that mmends that they t ive) oO x wu ke hou fea] t co ct “y! it] rt want them with a single cell. wo EFTA00058707

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 captain, supervisory attorney, duty officer, and the executive assistant. Department head meetings are held on Wednesdays. a. HI) (Phonetic Sp. *00:18:27)?” a : Mm-hmm. ae : “Completed the PSIQ for Jeffrey Epstein on July 8, 2019. Epstein did not mark anything on his PSIQ. And had it not been Epstein, he would have been sent to general population, and rated a care code one. Fo consulted with Dr. a. about Epstein’s risk factors, aside from his psychological health, including high-profile case and sex offense charges.” Who is Dr. a : He was the suicide prevention coordinator in central office. Now, he has been moved up to a higher position, but he is in central office, and he called me right away, when Epstein came, because of his risk factors. We call those static risk factors. Those are risk factors for suicidality that can't be changed. So, in other words, if you come in and you are a sex offender, and you are high- profile, like Jeffrey Epstein was, that is EFTA00058708

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 going to take place throughout his incarceration. It is not like he would just come in depressed; we could give him medication; he could get better. Those factors would always be there. So, you know, he was concerned. Also, when he came to the facility, that we should keep, you know, a close eye on him. And, you know, he was reviewing our notes and everything, from afar. So, he did call us when he was placed on watch and everything, and he oversaw. He: 3S So, he has access to your notes? Does that go into some kind of a database? ee : Yes. The psychology data system. WN: {don’t know if he reviewed the notes, but he called -. I'm trying to remember. I remember him calling me and just being in touch with me. You know, is everything okay? And, you know, making sure we assessed certain things. EFTA00058709

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LIMITED ho ho No No i) ive) w oO wo fea] oo © Ww OFFICIAL USE a a : Or calling me and checking Ee : And who would to that datab 1) sthologis rsonnel would wanted to notes from the BOP. They would h And when you or do you mean EFTA00058710

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE ay. ause I don’t work up But I wouldn’t th recommendations to on, when I put him on watch. He he EFTA00058711

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 w ~] ive) from court that day, Po ordered he be placed on watch status, to allow psychology to make a complete - to complete a thorough suicide risk assessment.” Is that correct? a : And that was on -- ee : And that was precautionary. ee : Because of his risk factor I wanted him assessed. So, I remember he was er) placed on watch, and he was waiting for me to come in and do his interview. And, you know, I came into the watch area, and he was, like, are you a: And he’s, like, get me out of here. You know? Because he didn’t endorse anything. He didn't say he was suicidal. He had just come from court, and he was just waiting to come off of watch because, you know, watch is very depriving, like we said, you can't have anything there. Like, not even clothes. It’s just -. You know, so, for him to be put in that situation. He was really unhappy about it. And then, you know, I explained, it was for his safety, and EFTA00058712

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 precaut he was, he would be ive) it wasn’t that he had that he was or said he was suicidal. It 4 endo 5 was st That w wo 3 “No substan 23 EFTA00058713

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 w ~] ive) observation, pending a suitable housing placement, given his risk factors of being an alleged sex offender. High-profile, and having one living brother relative. She quoted Epstein as saying, ‘Being alive is fun.’ Dr. | believed it was a genuine statement.” Is that accurate? by what? ae) genuine -- Okay. ‘i provided the interviewing agents with a copy of the suicide risk assessment, which was placed into this case as reference three. On July 10th, 2019, QM met with Epstein in observation. Epstein was still in observation, n due to housing concerns. He continued to be U psychologically stable wu t that time. Epstein was aware, even if he got bail, he would be at MCC for several more weeks.” That statement, “Epstein was aware even if he got bail.” Wa your understanding that he was going to get bail? EFTA00058714

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Ww PP If I recall, I remember he 2 was hopeful. Now, I don’t have my notes in ies) front of me, so I don’t want to swear to what 4 was in each note -- w oO Yeah. -- because when I don’t have 7 them in front of me, but from my recollection, 8 yes, he was hopeful that, you know, he would be able to get out of jail. i=) t R Okay. So, based on -- At that time. 2 -- your conversations with 3 him, he was expecting - hopeful - to get bail - 4 - 16 a : -- from being -. Okay. “Epstein made several demands and voiced many 8 complaints to a. which she passed onto 9 executive staff.” What kind of demands? Nw i=) I remember a lot of, like, 21 even his laxative, like, he wanted Colace 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:50), and he didn't like 23 the laxative he was getting. And, you know, he 24 just made a lot of demands. I would have to 25 refer to my notes, but it was just -- EFTA00058715

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Wo N 2 a : -- you know, individual, his 3 individual needs. Things that he wanted. What about -- You know? wi -- complaints? It mentions 7 that he voiced many complaints, also. fe) Maybe that he was on watch. 9 I mean, I remember he didn't want to be on 10 there to begin with. Things about the jail, in 11 and of itself, I guess he wanted, I remember 2 him wanting to go to the Cadre unit (Phonetic 3 Sp. *00:25:23), because at that time, we had 4 Paul Manafort (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:25) there. 15 a : Okay. 16 a : And he wanted to be - he knew 7 those people were in the prison - so, he wanted 8 to go be placed on a Cadre unit, which are 9 inmates that have already been sentenced, and 20 are serving small amounts of time. 22 a : At which we couldn’t put him 23 in, because he was pre-trial. But he wanted to 24 be with, like, other inmates he knew that were 25 there, that were more high-profile. EFTA00058716

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Ww 3 about that. from p oO while we think oO co EFTA00058717

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 ies) 4 would actually pre them in front of w So, while we e talking, you 6 them. Because if you can, we could easil 7 them for you 8 Okay. I will see how the 3 10 Sure. ed. And if I am proc 12 uncomfortable with one, I will let you know. 13 Yeah. 15 16 the 17 the warden c Les] wu 5] o ct a o fu wn n fe) 9) bP wu ct om rt F ° } ] a pan c Qo v) ish Oo 20 decided upon 21 Sorry. I don't wrong. No 2 “Her thought was decided upon cellmate, 23 Tartaglione, had a lot to lose -.” 25 was decided by the warden EFTA00058718

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LIMITED oO Oo oo No Ly nd the associate warden. Do you know what the the warden. know who who, but I know ociate wardens. I I know PF was there that period of time. And I'm trying to | tti‘ésS®@ But regardless, EFTA00058719

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE Wo fen) a : You know, and who they felt he should be placed with. Ee : And then, let me just - so that -. It says, “Her thought was the decided upon cellmate, Tartaglione, had a lot to lose given his history and chart which made him a low-risk to Epstein.” a p. Q ioe bad il of an opinion. a : You know, because my thought d him with that inmate pla he is facing the death penalty or life. Tartaglione. For these alleged murders. And when you are pre-trial, and you are in that situation, you are on not looking to hurt someb<c EFTA00058720

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 into more trouble. oO 15 know, fight, has been fighting for him for a Oo long time. oo if, EFTA00058721

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE it was some drug related thing, and there was four bodies, I think, and I don’t know that much about his case. I have met with him ona a : But, you know, he doesn't come know, he’s not, like, a ent, or trying to prove So, his goal was to n ct fu he was right, so he could You know, it’s not until they you know, you are very young and antisocial, you will act out. a : So, just to clarify, he was prison? a : Yeah, I think he was -- Wo co EFTA00058722

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LIMITED ies) w fos) K i) 1) wo ive) co 20 No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 39 and trying to prison? llth, 2019, servation, and housed met with Epstein in the jen rooms that day, day. Both Epstei mocking FY for thinking Epstein was suicidal. Epstein continued to make demands, EFTA00058723

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 w ies) oO tal wu ~] wo 10 11 ive) such as wanting to wear a brown uniform to his attorney meetings. PF continued to pa s those concerns onto the SHU Lieutenant is] Yeah. “On July 16th, 2019, after Epstein’s bail hearing, he was called for,” or, “he called for fF to come to attorney conference. Epstein didn't report any psychological concerns, but chastised her because his needs weren’t being met. Dr. | felt Epstein thought of her as his personal assistant. Epstein requested a kosher diet, which she again passed on.” | ti‘ aiésll Wait. Before we go on. It says he chastised you because his needs 7] weren’t being met. Okay. Well, this is, he, you know, while he was on watch, and when I would talk to him, he would tell me all these different things that he wanted. Like I said, the special laxative. A certain diet. Certain housing arrangements. You know, he had a lot EFTA00058724

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 of requests. And I guess, in the beginning, you know, I tried to help him as best as I could, and when I say personal assistant, I don’t really like that word. But what I was really trying to say is that the officers would say he would always say, where is a. where is a: You know, that, so that I could, maybe I had pull and could get certain needs for him met, within the prison setting. ee : So, let me put it that way. It sounds a little better than that. And then, you know what? I wanted to follow up with him, and do a session, but he was in attorney conference, like, eight hours a day, during my entire shift. So, I would have to go up there just to check on him, and make sure he was doing okay. So, when I would ask if he was suicidal, he would be, like, I was never suicidal, and, you know, he would laugh, and the attorney would laugh at me. You know, so, it was just kind of - that’s what I meant. And then, when he would chastise, he would become angry. EFTA00058725

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 Pe deman jing and entitled. So, if he got angry 3 when his (D w I assume. You know, you know, at the snap of o a p- i) And in the prison, it didn't wo ot) oO oo EFTA00058726

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LIMITED OFFICIAL 1 a : I guess one where USE 43 2 psychologists refer to, you know, people engage 3 in certain behaviors to get their needs met. 4 So, their wants and needs. So, yeah. Okay. J fon) w 5 rt i But do you believe that 8 he had everything he needs? Like , he needed. wo K oO 17) 11 a : For the most part. I mean, I 2 know he machine while he was on 3 watch. And I was, like, no. Because there was 4 cords, and things like that. So, you cannot 15 have your CPAP machine. And he wanted to get 16 off of watch at the end, because he wasn’t 7 sleeping well, and he said he had sleep apnea, 8 and he wanted his machine. So, I wasn’t going 9 to take him off until I felt he was ready, or 20 give him that, until he was off of watch. N ray c tal i) be 22 a : “On July 18th, a SHU review 23 was attempted on Epstein, but he was not seen 24 because he was in attorney conference. On July 25 23rd, 2019, PY received a phone call EFTA00058727

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 regarding Epstein, because he was found in his cell with a loose noose around his neck, and had been placed on suicide watch. She ordered a suicide risk assessment be completed on him. Dr. i.’ Is that -? Did I -? “Completed the suicide risk assessment later that morning. During the assessment, Epstein told Dr. GEMM be did not remember what happened. He denied suicidality. Had future plans. And he wanted to learn. He wanted to fight his case. And he was acting like a big kid. Dr. || learned that Epstein had told staff that his cellmate, Tartaglione, had tried to kill him. Dr. QR kept Epstein on suicide watch.” What was your understanding, and did you have a conversation with Epstein, after that point, about his interaction with Tartaglione? What exactly transpired -- a : -- on that incident? a : And that was the issue. I mean, he never retracted that statement. I mean, he said that he thought he was a pedophile, and that he had taken this piece -. I don't know if it was a piece, or a piece of EFTA00058728

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) cloth, or whatever. And went like this around h his neck. And -. ee : Now, he told you this? a : Yes. He told my taff that, n Ee: So, he told both you and ee : Yes. I had seen him subsequently. Again, I don’t have my notes in front of me -- a : -- but I remember him telling me that. So, at that point, when we were doing the suicide risk assessment, and Dr. || was, we had to conceptualize what actually happened. You know, whether this is something he inflicted on himself, and you know, the reasonings why he would do something like that. Or whether it was there was indeed an assault of some form. And so, then, you know, it was referred to SIS, too. So, he wasn’t ever really forthright on what occurred, while he was on watch that time. a : Did you ever believe - based on your conversations with Mr. Epstein -. EFTA00058729

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 w ~] ive) Sorry. I’1l just end that. Based on your conversations with Mr. Epstein, did you believe what he stated, in terms of Tartaglione trying to kill him? Honestly, I did not know what to believe at that point. So, my mind was opened that there were potentially three things, different things going on, and a 33 percent chance of it being any one of those things. Because you don’t know what happens behind closed doors, in the SHU, or whether they did have a disagreement. You know what? It actually goes into your hypothesis -- : Yes. Okay. -- let me read that -- Okay. -- and maybe you can state -- Okay. : -- if that’s right. “Dr. | had three hypotheses, in no particular = order, regarding this incident, of what this incident meant. One) it was gamey by either Epstein, Tartaglione, or both. Meaning, there was something they wanted, and they weren’t EFTA00058730

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 getting. So, this is how they were going to play the system to their advantage. Two) it was rehearsal by Epstein, who really was suicidal. Three) it was an assault committed by Tartaglione.” Was that the three? That is your three hypotheses? ee : Was there any one of those that you were leaning towards? a: At that point, I didn't know because -- ME: okay. a : -- you know, he was just placed on watch. The SIS investigation hadn’t taken place. I had -. There was enough evidence it could have been any one of those, because the phone call I received in the morning, when he was placed on watch, the lieutenant at that time had told me it was -. She was, like, this doesn't - because they have been around a while - this isn’t a real thing. It was like a little string, and, you know, he was, he seemed fine. And then, when I turned around, he would be rocking back and forth. So, she, you know, EFTA00058731

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 w ies) ~] wo 10 11 ive) at that initial time, it almost looked a little gamey. Like, that maybe he just went like this with a piece of string, at that point. He had lost his bail. I'm sorry. a : No problem. a : Let me just turn off my phone. At that point, he had lost his bail hearing. The judge denied him -. I Bail. The judge denied him bail. | ti‘ ‘és So, right before the 23rd, the judge denied him bail, and then this happened? vs) Q a ie) ct a * i] he U ° | i} a : So, there is, that is the gamey piece. I mean, if you want my conceptualization, that, you know, that maybe he did, you know, this sends a message, I can't take jail, put me on house arrest. I'm either going to hurt myself or someone else is going to hurt me. Get me out of here. Because he came in very entitled. Like I said, he had a lot of money. He was meeting with his attorneys every day. EFTA00058732

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 He had a lot of money at that point. It’s not like he had lost trial. And Tartaglione had a lot to gain, to save a life, because he is facing life. You know, when you get a letter that you save someone’s life, that’s helpful in your case. I'm not saying that’s it, but I mean, I'm just trying to think of hypotheses. So, that was where the gamey stuff came in. That was the gamey piece. The report from the lieutenant, the gains that both of them could have by this behavior. Could that be why that happened? Number two. He is genuinely upset, and he was, it was a rehearsal behavior, and perhaps he really wanted to hurt himself. So, we need to be cautious. So, it could be the gamey thing. It could be the cautious thing. Or maybe Epstein and Tartaglione had it out that night, and he said something pompous or whatever, and the other one got upset, and he did, you know, put the rope around his neck, and that really frightened Epstein, and that is why he went into, like, this fetal position. Maybe he was scared. You know, could it have been any of those? And subsequently, I EFTA00058733

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 think one of his attorneys was convinced that 2 Tartagliione had assaulted him. Not beca ies) e told his attorney the same attorney. w 6 Ee: Now, I understand that 7 that’s what you thought -- Yeah. fos) wo i=) WwW ) 2 a : I never knew. No? 4 ae : I mean, I never -- ive) b oO | | 5S @ Les] wu a b Wy Q rs ul] an b he ue] re i) Cc fn bp. o a @ 9 a : Well, I guess towards the end 20 of watch, I thought the assault wasn’t as 21 plausible. Because that he really wanted to 22 hurt Ep becaus 1 i) om ter on, Epstein was fu 23 saying he would go back and cell with him. So, 24 would you want to go back and cell with 25 somebody that was trying to hurt you? but EFTA00058734

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE wo ray 1 again, I didn't do the SIS investigation. So, 2 and I never was privy to it. ies) Mm-hmm. 4 ee : So, I don't know what the 5 findings were But after that, that made that 6 one less plausible. So, made the other two more plausible, at that point in time, which 8 was either it was a rehearsal behavior, or two) 9 it was a game - it was gamey - to get him out 10 of jail because he was just denied -- Who did he -- 2 ME: a. 3 -- who did he make that 4 request to? That he wanted to go back within 15 the cell with Tartaglione? Was that to you 16 directly, or -? 7 a : I think he might have 8 mentioned something like that, because when I 9 was trying to figure out where to house him 20 later, I remember him mentioning that to me. I 21 don’t know if I put it in a note or not. 24 a : But yeah. So, I began to 25 think that that was - it was less -. Why would EFTA00058735

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 52 -? But maybe he’s not fu you want to go back in thinking clearly. I don’t know. But that made me feel less about that. When he said that. on that? @ Ee: Now, being that he just Bh a : I mean, I had heard that he called out. ee : That’s what I mean. a : -- I had heard that. ee: -- with those -- a : But I don’t -. Tartaglione, you know, at or observation, does that also make you think EFTA00058736

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LIMITED ies) w oO wo i=) nN ive) fea] Lal oO wu J oo K 0) wu x No N No Wa OFFICIAL USE harm him, or does t . s : Ns) never know. At tha circumstance. Was them, or maybe it w trying to get any g trying to call atte could be - so that and get that bail, like he wasn’t safe A 53 hat play into your decision? S zt z till, those two, I just will Okay. - for that particular it, you know, a pact between t even Tartaglione ain. Maybe it was Epstein so that he ntion to himself, he could go back toc urt, and that they would feel there. Right. guess -- nd let him go home. -- my question m -- wasn’t that clear. So, I think used the example that Epstein, after he was coming off of observation, and where he was going you were looking to see to be housed, or who he was going to be housed with, he mentioned that he was going to go, you know, to go back with Tar he would be willing taglione, and that was the EFTA00058737

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 5¢ reason why you thought, maybe, that one of the three was probably less likely. Ee : What I'm saying is, do the factors that Tartaglione called out to the staff to say something is going on with Epstein, come check him out, does that al is] uv] 7) oO play into that, or no, you just placed that e other two, that -? a : Simply in th a : -- that, I don’t know what to ay. a : Whether it was going to be something to help, whether he really was worried about Epstein. a : This may not be something that you might know. It’s more towards health ion services, but maybe you had a conversation with EFTA00058738

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 55 medically examined him for any broken bones, ything, know he had examine him? kind injuri a : -- I don't know. That, I don't know. You to bh in BEMR. Yeah. For that. 4 =) wu rt A ct -he medical record. are meeting him, though, at EFTA00058739

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ee : Just the mark. 2 a : On the back of his neck. Like -. 4 Ee : Do you remember if he was w fe ) ies) 5 complaining about potential broken bones, 6 or collar type issues, or anything? Oo @ 5 & is] 10 a : Okay. 1 a : “On July Dr. 2 | met with Epstein. Epstein reported he 3 was fearful to return to his cell with 4 Tartaglione because Tartaglione had called him 5 a pedophile. Epstein reported Tartaglione had 16 put - had been playing with the bedsheet before 7 Epstein fell asleep. And then, next thing 8 Epstein remembered, he was waking up snoring. 9 Epstein denied being suicidal, and reported 20 being unhappy with this legal situation. He 21 had been eating, drinking, and sleeping. Dr. 22 | took Epstein off suicide watch, and 23 placed on psychological observation.” 24 | tti‘ésS®@ Now, on that, when the 25 inmate goes from suicide watch to psychological EFTA00058740

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 57 observation, is the executive staff conferred with? provide an opinion on that, or was it just to let them know? a : No. We just let them know. Ee : Just to let them know. a : If they feel that way, they can express it, and we will keep it in mind, though, and again, we make those decisions. Now, being that this is July 24th, the next day, and he had possibly tried to hang himself -- fF Mm-hmm. a : -- on July 23rd, and they took him off - Dr. QR tax watch and places him on psychologica s him off suicide (D observation. Is that normal practice? sause p it) EFTA00058741

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 observation is, he’s in the exact same cell, he’s being constantly observed. She spent a long time with him. I think she interviewed him, like, over an hour, an hour anda half. And she just felt that there was no eminent risk of at that time. Like, while he was ina suicide watch cell, he wasn’t going to do anything to harm himself. So, we stepped him down. I think maybe gave hima -. I don’t know if she gave him underwear, or gave him something, so that he was more comfortable. So, it wasn’t so depriving. Because he kept adamantly denying wanting to harm himself. And, you know, she came and talked to me. I didn't sit in that interview because she’s a licensed psychologist, and she felt it was safe to step him down, because he would still be by himself in that cell, constantly observe with the lights on all night. Nothing would have changed. ee : So, I guess -- ee: -- what he wants to know, though, is, was that normal? Is that normal practice -- EFTA00058742

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) uw to Yeah. -- for her to do that? We do that. I mean -- Okay. - not all facilities have the step down, the psychological observation. Some people just have the suicide watch. And then, they will give them privileges while they are on suicide watch. But we have that, so, if you want, because suicide watch is so strict, that he couldn’t even have a pair of underwear. He couldn’t, you know, have a piece of mail. Nothing. So, we didn't feel he needed that strict of supervision, but we still wanted him constantly observed, to see, and we could always step him back up, if he engaged in any behavior, because he would be constantly watched. All right. So, suicide watch and psychological observation are extremely similar. Very similar. Except that we can give a little more privilege. Like I is] aid, we could give him a book to read. Or we could give him a pair of - start with the underwear. EFTA00058743

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LIMITED OFFICIAL US 60 w ~] 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 Or, you know, he could have toothpaste, and give it back to brush his teeth. That type of thing. It wasn’t as strict. ee : And at the MCC, when an inmate potentially attempts to harm themselves, how long are they typically on suicide watch versus observation, before -- ee : Well, that -- ee: -- they (Indiscernible *00:47:51)? a : -- depends on how the inmate presents. HE: «st smean, I have had people on suicide watch for long periods of time because they can't verbalize any protective factors, which would be reasons they have for wanting to be alive at the time. Reasons they have to live. Factors that we would look at to say, hmm, there is more factors here that suggest he wants to be alive, and that he has reasons to be alive versus not. Versus risk factors. So, at that time, he had verbalized enough protective factors that Dr. | felt comfortable stepping him down to psychological EFTA00058744

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo Leal its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 61 observation. I don’t have her SRA in front of me, but if you read it, it would have his for wanting to be alive, hi 7) of not exhibiting any acute symptoms, not being depressed. ed him down at that point. Now, do you know, ion, are consult with us with that. And I do allow it. A lot of times, as long as, you know, there is a lieutenant present, or there y- And in this case, do you know if was allowed attorney visits while he was on observation? don’t remember. = ie) oO o know EFTA00058745

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 if the institution was contacted by anyone, such as Epstein’s attorneys, or the judge, asking that he be taken off of suicide watch and placed on observation because he wasn’t being afforded attorney visits, or for any other reason? a : No. I don’t recall that happening. ee: Okay. And on that same note, do you recall either the judge, an attorney, or anyone from the outside, contacting the institution when he was taken off of observation and placed back in the SHU? HS: St don’t recall speaking to any attorney about that. a : No, not you speaking with them. But I mean, them contacting - I'm assuming they would contact the warden. a : That, I don’t know about. |) 8k the warden never had that, or anyone, any of the executive staff, or anyone had any conversation with you or staff, saying, this is what we are getting from the outside, the judge contacted us, or the attorney, you know, the attorneys -? EFTA00058746

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 a : I don't know. 3 a : Hmm-mm. oO Oh, no. It wo ot) oO oo of suicide watch and jown 23 it could 24 situation. 9 EFTA00058747

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) a : But what I am saying is, when you were reading the paper -- ee : Yeah. a : -- it sounded like we just give them everything. We make those decisions. We may step them one at a time, if it is more significant. We may give them a book. Anda pair of underwear. I mean, we may give them -. It is just whatever, it is at the discretion of the psychologists that interview them, on what they are going to allow the inmate to have. a : Do you know how it worked with Mr. Epstein? Was he given one item at a time back -? One or two items, or was he given everything back? a : I don’t remember. I don’t think he was given everything back, initially. That’s for sure. But -. a : Okay. I'm going to keep going. not any clearer on which of her hypotheses might have been true. Epstein could have been using his charm to breed doubt about what EFTA00058748

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) happened. Psychology had not been contacted by Epstein’s attorneys with concerns regarding his mental health. On July 25th, 2019, Fs met with Epstein, who was in good spirits. And greeted her by saying, ‘Welcome back.’ Dr. | confronted Epstein on the attempted suicide incident, in an attempt to get answers. Epstein said he was baffled over it, and told fF to give him some ques to help him remember. He continued with his requests and complaints, and did not want to go back to the SHU. Epstein told QM, ‘I have a life, and want to go back to living my life.’ Dr. | kept him on observation because her questions had not been answered, regarding their suicide attempt.” | ti‘ aiésll Or the suicide attempt. a : “Regarding the suicide a : “After a conversation with Dr. a. the national suicide prevention coordinator from central office, FY got involved in Epstein’s housing. Dr. || recommended housing Epstein with a sex offender EFTA00058749

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO fos) ite) ive) fea] oo its) Nh iat) w OFFICIAL USE oO oy ed on via email to ; be] Mn x a . > ; 0 > ne a i] Mn i) you know which a bunch of documentation, when I had my last interview. There may have been an email. I don’t remember | ti‘ ‘és And did you concur with a : He kept saying this thing, if you want -. It was this weird thing he said, something. “If you want my trust, I have to trust you.” And that was trust that, if he asked for certain things, that I would follow . You know, if I said I was going to do something, I would follow EFTA00058750

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 w ~] through with it type of thing. I just remember that. ee : Basically, he wanted you to provide something, so he can reciprocate? a : Right. a : Basically, if you wanted answers from him, you had to provide him with - is] a: -- is that what -? es : It wasn’t like that. It was just - again, I probably would have to refer to my notes for that one - but it was just a weird thing that he used to say. Like, if you want, if we want to have, like, this trusting relationship type of thing, then, you know, I have to trust that you are going to follow through with your stuff, and you -. And then, you can trust me. I don't know. It was strange. I don’t really know what he meant by that. a : Okay. “He continued with complaints and jokes, making reference to Dr. | being Jewish, like him. It is against Jewish religion to commit suicide.” Is that EFTA00058751

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) wo i=) ive) fea] co 19 20 No N No Ww x o iN w ie) OFFICIAL time, how something girl in attorney conferenc V to me, like, what’ u doing here? ed he knew I was even Jewish, a tr) some comment like that. ct + p ie] oS 0) Qa a cell. w ct ct oO K 5 1) te o Q on him, remember, b We ll, b fu time in And you were y conference, with him? aus i) @ au ifs) i) Mm-hmm. I know he was never available a I didn't You know, A is] gain vf But attorney EFTA00058752

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LIMITED OFFIC o KK o a] on wn bP 5 rt ia H o ie) O = c a7] ct | | 12 a : -- that might have I don’t know if he mentioned 15 ee : But he -- a : -- I don’t -- 18 a : -- I don’t know where th 19 came from. oO EFTA00058753

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 10 11 12 18 19 20 don’t remember. He may have. He may have, in a joking way, said something like that to me. I don’t remember, to be honest. a : I would have to see -- a : -- if that is one of my notes. Or if it is something that was just in passing at attorney conference. I just remember that one incident. About the Jewish thing. Like, what’s a Jewish girl like you doing here? Or something. ae : “Epstein said he did not like pain, and didn't want to hurt himself. Epstein had been interacting with the companions assigned to him regularly. On July 27th, 2019, Dr. | met with Epstein, who was anxious about going back to SHU, due to the fact he did not know how he got the marks. Epstein did not answer Dr. | questions about that night. She had begun working more therapeutically with him, and provided him with handouts to cope with housing. Lieutenant Doctor’s investigation into a possible assault regarding EFTA00058754

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 71 this incident still had not returned any answers. Dr. || kept Eps ” chological observation. “He was anxious about going back on that. wn to the SHU due to tk fact he did not know how he got the marks.” So, he had changed his story of how he got the marks, at that point? a : He didn't change the story. He was then, I don’t know how I got the marks. story y- went from Tartaglione did it, to I don't know 1) how I did it? HE: 29s how it happened? know why that happened, or did you question him about that? ae : Yeah, but he just kept being vague, like he didn't know anything, or that, EFTA00058755

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LIMITED No No iN ies) w fos) ite) ive) n Oo Qo ) 3 + ~ 3 oO oa PI ct oo © iat) OFFICIAL USE ie) like, he blac it hap Was you said that Tartaglior are saying you don’t recall. confronted him in that way, like, investigators. Sure. we don’t -. think that way. think, likely, probably mentioned that, and know. He was That His logbook showed no signs of suicidality, and he was participating in his legal meetings. here had been no contact from Epstein’s legal oO EFTA00058756

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 73 So, being that he was on he wasn’t acutely, eminently suicidal, that he had been denied any current displayed any self-harm behaviors. Or any odd ie} or unusual behaviors. Likely, we didn't have a problem with him going t! were staff up there -- -- to watch him. ee: So, he would actually go from observation to the attorney conference So, it wasn’t that were meeting him at the suicide -- EFTA00058757

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LIMITED ive) wo 3 23 OFFICIAL U JSE 74 don’t from, e know ' Lik p.m., don’t know if puld never see him, but I don’t remember, while he was on probably time. a day. I think he was EFTA00058758

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LIMITED w wo ive) fea] oo its) No Ww OFFICIAL USE 75 While he was on he would be ops while someone would sit But is that meone who is observing him the whole time. -- is sitting there, watching EFTA00058759

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~) on LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 WN:_—s ean. There was somebody 2 there. Like, the way our attorney. I don't ies) know. Hav ou been to our attorney conference 4 room? 6 a : Do you know where the officer 7 sits there, there is an attorney conference 8 room right next to him, that has windows. 9 That’s where Epstein was every day. 10 a : So, you could see in? 11 a : Full. Yeah. You could see 2 his, like, white - you come off the elevator - 3 you w his white hair. Like, he was right 4 there. 16 WN: ike, he could 7 attorney conference officer. At all times. 8 And he w with his attorneys. So, I mean, if 9 God forbid, he started banging his head for one 20 second, the officer was right outside his 21 window. 23 a : Yeah. So, we felt, you know, 24 it was okay, and again, he wasn’t on suicide 25 watch. We didn't think he was eminently EFTA00058760

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co 19 20 No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 77 suicidal. And not feeling completely until we observed him over a period of time. wasn’t on suicide Ee : No. I guess just on that ting his, with his attorneys, are hi no being met? Vell, that’s why we had to Oo up Right, right, right. we would go up there and interview him. a : And around how long would those interviews take? EFTA00058761

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LIMITED Ww oO wo WwW fea] oo 19 KK Ww OFFICIAL USE his from before then, we w attorney went there went back the not Mm-hmm. would look through the night. daily. Mm-hmm. would there to at his suicide watch book there ie) on oO i] =] ie] EFTA00058762

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 different than if he were not seeing his attorneys? Was that the same amount of time that psychology would see him, if he was with his attorneys, or staying in the cell where he was being observed? ae : Yeah. We usually, like, 15 minutes. I mean, it’s not a therapy session. ee: We’re just, you know, doing a mental status, seeing how they are doing. Are you eating or sleeping? Are you having thoughts of hurting yourself? We read the book. : —bon, a : In its entirety, for the past 24 hours, to see, did he voice anything to the companions that he wanted to hurt himself. Did he take his meals? Did he eat his meals? Did he shower? Is he, you know, is he displaying any behaviors that are consistent with depression? So, we look at all of that. And then, we interview him. We do the mental status. We ask him how he’s doing. And so, that would be pretty consistent. It might have been a little shorter on occasion, if he was up EFTA00058763

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 w ~] ive) there with his attorneys, because his attorneys were there. So, it wouldn't really be confidential. But we do -- ee : Oh, so, when you were conversing with him, it would be in front of his attorneys? a : Is that normal? a : Yeah. Well, because he was in there with his - he has a right to his legal meetings - so, he was with his attorneys. It wasn’t every time. I mean, there might have been one or two occasions where we had to see him up there, because he was in the meeting with the attorneys. So, yeah. We talked to him in front of his attorney to make sure he was okay. ae: Now, when you say he has a right to his attorneys, if he was on suicide watch, would he have the right to his attorneys? a : Normally, I really do try to get them to meet with their attorney. I mean, that’s only if they are actively, like, EFTA00058764

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE 81 4 cuttine a : -- wanting to hurt ves, then I would have a lieutenant up , or -- ite a : Like, I always try to give t the right to be with their ry ct is) rne}\ because that could make them even mor o a : If you deprive them of being able to work on their legal case. “On July 29th, Epstein expressed chological Epstein had P machine, sg that he sleep. Due to the machine having a cord, this could not be accommodated in psychological observation. to stay in Epstein was given a cha =] i) c ” psychological observation - EFTA00058765

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE oo i) : Sorry. 3 “Epstein was given a choice 4 to stay in psychological observation one more 5 night without it, or go to the SHU with it. He 6 chose to stay in psychological observation one 7 more night. Po consulted with the 8 executive staff, prior to this decision.” 10 a : “On July 11 | transitioned Epstein 2 Dr. || sent an email, updating the 3 appropriate staff for Epstein’s transition off 4 psychological observation, and the need for him 15 to be housed with a cellmate.” fea] Okay. 7 ME: @e2r with us. So, that contact was at his oo 9 cell. It wasn’t with the attorney. If there 20 was, like I said, a couple of contac 21 were in attorney conference, they wer - 22 most of them were at his cell, we caught him 23 before he went up to his legal visits. That 24 last visit was in person. I remember that 25 visit. EFTA00058766

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] oO ive) Okay. With the CPAP. Now, do you recall, when Dr. | | transitioned Epstein back to the SHU, was that solely the decision of psychology, or was there any recommendation from executive Management? Like, the warden, the associate warden, or somebody from the outside, a ee : No. That was our decision. After him being between suicide w is) Hed Q i) =] rt fu ct ch and psych ops for almost a full week. It was our decision that he was not eminently suicidal, and could be transitioned. a : And just to, I mean, Epstein expressed that he would like to stay in psychological observation because it was safe. So, he actually preferred psychological observation over the SHU? a : Because he wasn’t being able to be housed where he wanted to be housed. He didn't want to go to Special Housing. Like I said, he wanted to be housed in the Cadre unit. He wanted to dictate his housing arrangements. EFTA00058767

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 When they weren’t what he wanted them to be, and I guess maybe he heard rumors, or whatever, that the SHU was, like, a bad place, or a scary place, he didn't want to go back there. But a lot of inmates don’t want to go to SHU, and that is why, earlier, when you said a lot of people fake mental illness, or fake suicidality, so that they can come down to our suicide watch area, and just interact with the companions, and hope that maybe someone will slip them something they couldn't have while they were in the SHU. Or just to get a timeout because it could be loud up there, because inmates will scream outside their cells, because I don't know if you are familiar with an AD-SEG (Phonetic Sp. *01:06:16) unit, ora Special Housing Unit, where inmates are in a cell, with a cellmate, like, 23 out of 24 hours a day. So, it gets loud and rowdy. So, a lot of times, people try to come down. It’s, like, almost, like, the Marriott, you know, to come to our suicide watch area, where it is peaceful and quiet, and they don’t have to hear things, or if they are having problems with officers up there. So, it’s not EFTA00058768

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE B5 1 uncommon for any inmate to try to avoid going 4 a : You know, it’s not an o K 0) a] And I'm assuming - wo I want to go 12 back ot) oO oo 20 down there, that they feel that their wants and pe met, or better suited up in the 95 EFTA00058769

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 86 ho 0) wan the Cadre Unit, which dorm he didn't want to is a guy EFTA00058770

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 n o Ke Q @ ral housing unit over the SHU, though? style 5 Cadre Unit. oO wo t are celled with 12 housing units, wu 13 = 15 n the oo tier, would it EFTA00058771

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 No. There is just ive) o my 5 rt i) Q ct oO on 0) What you are saying s he wanted ly housed with more ° o t be that is whe 13 15 16 came in, he didn't like being on the unit. 17 That was for sure c fe) oo] a Bb ts] ct D wu io) R 0) | | ie) t rar ho No EFTA00058772

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 8 he wanted to be where the lower sentence inmates were. 7) ct h- b } a : Was Paul Manafort I don’t know if he had not asking -. So, , and he wants to be in the d. hous oO EFTA00058773

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) wo ive) oo OFFICIAL USE there, and he said he wanted to be person was. Maybe he felt it surviving there, his thought pr that’s how, that’s -. I think it’s it was part of his personali people, and these were, that was a inmate. You know, so, he would feel higher-le 90 where that I mean, he importance of SHU inmates the following reasons: it decreases provides a rescue opportunity.” a : “At risk settings provides a dis isolation; traction; for EFTA00058774

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 inmates, including housing, single cells, and private spaces. SHU employees receive training on suicide prevention quarterly. All employees receive suicide prevention training once a year. FY provided slides from MCC’s suicide prevention training to the interviewing agents, reference that, referred to as references any denying, attached to his report. She stated all lieutenants should be aware of the cellmate policy. Both due to the training regularly provided, and psychological services constantly reminding them of the procedure, and needs of specific inmates. Po noted, after Epstein’s death, his old cellmate’s label was still on his door. That is one of the things that the psych department looks for, in their daily rounds in the SHU, that there are two bodies in each cell.” Now, that label on the door, if an inmate is removed, should that label have been removed, too? ee : It should have been done immediately, especially since he was housed with Epstein. EFTA00058775

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 92 a : Why should it have been removed immediately? a : Because then his cellmate was bailed out, and wasn’t coming back. HN: By removing it, would that U offi also give 3, inform the that there is only one inmate in that cell? a : That would have helped. Most definitely. It wouldn't have been the should know, but it definite situation. August 9th right now? old cellmate’s label was still on his door. who would have been, on August 9th, the who would have done the rounds in the SHU? rounds is we EFTA00058776

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE fe] tot) 1 monthly SHU reviews, which are more intense 2 rounds. So, we didn't see Epstein every single 3 day. 4 : Yeah. Okay. 5 a : That, we didn't do. We don’t 6 do daily rounds. We do weekly rounds. 7 Sometimes, we are up there, we are up there 8 almost every day, especially when we were, our 9 SHU was full, because there is always inmates 10 that have concerns or needs. So, if we are up 11 there, and an inmate has a concern, we go to 2 that tier and see those inmates. ive) 4 ae : But as far as going cell to 15 cell, we do that weekly. 16 a : -- okay. Because this, 7 yeah, this last sentence said, “This is one of 8 the things the psych department looks for in 9 their daily rounds in the SHU -- 20 HS: ms our rounds -- 22 bodies in each cell.” 23 a : In our rounds. Like, if we 24 are doing our weekly rounds, and we notice that 25 -- EFTA00058777

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo © OFFICIAL USE cellmate, especially if we two something. Like, that week and ab -- someone doesn't have a know that person is Ov we are going to why is this het So, when doing that Hmm-mm. They meant And do day y what know was done back then? I don’t. No? the -. I do And But I do know, on vacation, I personally on him, and he hac EFTA00058778

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 ee : Right. Okay. 2 a : Anything else? 4 ee : ‘i was aware that 5 Dr. QR), 2 tended the close out 6 meeting that week, and discussed Epstein’s 7 desire to have a single cell, but his need for 8 a cellmate. Fo wasS unaware regular 9 rounds by the correctional officers were not 10 being completed. She is considered executive 11 staff, so officers would not tell her they were 2 not being completed, and inmates wouldn’t tell 3 her because of fear of retaliation by the 4 guards. 15 fF noted Lieutenant | | is very 16 regimented, and regularly does what she asks. 7 fF was not aware that Epstein signed a 8 new will on August 8th. Had she known, it 9 would have been considered a red flag, and 20 Epstein would have been placed on psychological 21 observation. The attorneys did not tell anyone 22 from psychological services that it had 23 occurred.” So, we had a couple of questions. 24 How did you learn that he had signed a will? 25 a : The newspaper. EFTA00058779

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LIMITED oO wo ot) oO oo 95 OFFICIAL USE 96 Yr? That’s not something that you you know if he actually, in a new will on the 8th? y. Did you bring that up a : That, I don’t remember. y may about it. said no. I didn't know about it directly from them. I knew about it from reading it in the paper. a : But one thing I (a nly het EFTA00058780

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 after reading the paper, gee, that would have been helpful information. Because had I known that, I would have said, that is a red flag, and let’s put him back on, and just watch him for a few more days, and see if we can get more information from him. About why he would do that, or what was going on. HE: «= Should have the attorneys notified you? a: Well, the attorneys have their own ethical, you know, confidentiality issues. HS: «So, «you know, a lot of times, attorneys call us all the time if they are concerned about their patients. I mean, I get, I used to get, like, several a week, where attorneys would call in and say, you know, I'm worried, I talked to my client on the phone. I don’t like how he sounded. Can psychology check on that inmate? And I was, like, why didn't they do that this time? Because they always do that. And we do. We go immediately. So, if that was true, I wish someone would have called us, but they didn't. EFTA00058781

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE wo on] All right. Thank you Did think that the r i) stroom? But, you know, own ethical -. Like, they was going to kill himself, and he j signing a will, they don’t -. I don’t think ve to tell, call us. It would be a Yeah. Did he er bring up changing his will in any of his your meetings, or the EFTA00058782

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 1 with him? 2 | ss 3 a : That was the first time you 4 guys had, you ever heard that would be from -- 5 HE: Right. 6 a : -- (Indiscernible *01:16:30). 7 a : After the fact. I read that, 8 and I was, like -. wo And now, why would it be a 10 red flag? 11 a : Because he is in jail. He is 2 not happy being in jail. He is facing a lot of 3 time. He’s high risk. And he is signing a 4 will. You know, I definitely would ha 15 interviewed him. I can't say 100 percent he 16 would be put on psych ops, but if he didn't 7 give me the answers that I was looking for, he 8 would have been put on some form of 9 observation, until we could get the answers 20 that we were looking for. 21 a : ‘ii mentioned that 22 was the first day ever, she ever heard about 23 the will being changed. There was no 24 discussion with Epstein before -- EFTA00058783

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 HS: -— about the will.” 2 a : Epstein never shared that 3 with me. It was something that I read after 4 the fact. 6 a : And again, I don't know if it’s true or not true. ~] 9 a : “On August 8th, 2019, Dr. 10 | attended the SHU meeting. She couldn’t 11 recall all who was there, but it included unit 2 team members, executive staff, and attorneys 3 for MCC. Nothing significant was discussed 4 about Epstein at the meeting. She conducted 15 SHU rounds, to see Epstein.” Is this what you 16 mentioned before, that before you went on 7 vacation? 8 a : Mm-hmm. 9 a : Okay. “He had a cellmate at 20 the time, and Epstein had the lower bunk. He 21 didn't have any visible problems, appeared in 22 good spirits, and reported getting along with 23 his cellmate. He had received his pack number, 24 which allows him to make phone calls, and he 25 had asked for his books from psychological EFTA00058784

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 101 observation.” When That, I don't know. That, would know. Ee: Do you know around what time the SHU meeting would h Like, around 9:00. 0, the Marshals that his cellmate was go EFTA00058785

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo its) OFFICIAL USE 102 ee : And did you know anything rding -? HN: 8c) I didn't know the inmate was -. The inmate -. I didn't know that he went to court that day, or anything. I was not going to be transferred to another institution. t all fu HN: No. )SNot that I -- ee : -- that wasn’t disci ee : -- and I, likely, I don’t know. Yeah. Iwas -. Huh. I don’t remember ae : Because that would have EFTA00058786

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 ee : Even after the fact? 2 a : -- that would been something 3 that, you know, the lightbulb kind of would 4 have went on. wi n c H oO oO a : I was pretty shocked to find 7 out that he didn't have a cellmate. 9 WN: After he killed himself. 10 That was the first question I asked. When I 11 was away, and I was went to PY and the 2 times difference was off, and my flight was 3 delayed. I had slept for, like, two hours. It 4 was very strange. I went into the restroom, 15 you know how you bring your phone? I know, 16 TMI. I pressed my phone, and all these alerts came on, and everyone was texting me, and then, 8 I saw that he had hung himself, and I was just, 9 like, how could that happen? And the first 20 thing, when I called my associate warden, the 21 first thing I asked is, did he have a cellmate? 22 Because that was the first thing that came in 23 my mind. And she was, like, no. EFTA00058787

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFIC AL USE 104 ee : And what did she about that? like, why? Like -. didn't. She was, like, I know, this was all you mean, later on, I found out what which was that his cellmate went He fu 5 QA that they cellmate with him. information. So, who told you that he oO rt ourt and bonded a : That was later on. I don’t EFTA00058788

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LIMITED ies) w 4 o fw rt “ 5 w + > w o oO fos) ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 105 remember the person who told me that. actually went to court, and not transferred to a different institution? a : That he had gone to and then he was -. That might not be though. He was bailed out, or he wasn’t, remember where you heard that from? There was an the afternoon, that He wasn’t going to court. So, that morning, he would, he wasn’t going to court. actually transferred out to EFTA00058789

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LIMITED ho ho ho No i) ive) w wo fea] oo © Ww OFFICIAL USE 106 Now, if an email like t sibility would it have ifications up, hey, court production list? court production list. No. I don’t always review the Yeah. No. Right. I mean, I don’t h aff have that n ct wu EFTA00058790

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LIMITED No No iN ie) ies) w oO fos) wo ive) fea] 7) co © Nh iat) w OFFICIAL US rst a : And they do review it, sure we reviewed it, you weren’t even -- ._ ¥ a: i) wu have someone reviewed that? a : That’s not something that we stodial wise - we don’t manage hands-on like that. much, Like, we’re not U looking all the time. I think now, since this we might become more involved with that. And review t things. Like, I get the Marshal’s make sure they don’t have any histori things, or there is a no Marshal’s notic ae : More so than ever now, ov oO Qa wu 107 EFTA00058791

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo No Ww OFFICIAL USE 108 our SHU list, a : -- is cell, you know, that is 7] EFTA00058792

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo OFFICIAL USE 109 0 0 KK @ | | him as and during our wee anyway. So, if he displa if he didn't display them, 0) k b + the only problem is, if had planned on housing Epstein alone, and not replacing po then we should h about, do we think be housed with EFTA00058793

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) ee : -- so, the fact that his cellmate was gone, and he is supposed to be housed with a cellmate, should have they -? Should someone have contacted psychology to let you know this cellmate is gone, we need to get rr another cellmate in there? Is that something that you should be a part of, or is that something that was just custody? a : That is mainly custody. a : That is mainly custody. Now, things are a little different. I mean, again, things are put into place. That may not have been in place before. Things we may not have been as involved with. a : We have become more involved with. Because of lessons learned. So, now, when they house anybody alone, they let us know, do you recommend this? Like I was telling you, there is a sheet. Do you recommend this? And we always say no. a : I tell my staff, never recommend a single cell. Like, if we think EFTA00058794

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 someone is going to be single celled, we are 2 notified. Oh, this person is going to be -. 3 a. come sign this, this form. But 4 before, we didn't do that. Okay, when Epstein we did not do that. w pu & ct a oO H oO 6 7 him 8 been notified. The 9 ving, we wouldn't have 10 been notified, unle not to 1 replace him with somebody else. Because the 2 intention was always to keep him in the S! ive) with a cellmate. I think fea] were, too. It should have 9 ae: -- that worked in the SHU oo 22 -- or, for instance, 23 you think there is ever 24 an ’ in this specific instance 25 with Epstein, that for people to say, we didn't EFTA00058795

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ° nN ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 112 know he was supposed to have a cellmate. Is that - do you believe that that is an excuse? Or a reason, I should say. Not an excuse. And this is not, I'm not talking about now. 1g about is No. I know what you are it comes from management and far as what he had shared with me, is that he let the officers know. And that there was a sign up there, from what I understand, on their hat said he had to desk, ve a cellmate. ct is] Okay? a : I did not see that sign, because I don’t go behind that desk. a : When I go. So -- EFTA00058796

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LIMITED Ww oO wo fea] oo t rar No KK Ww OFFICIAL USE 113 re was a rounds on Ep But -- cellmate. Aside from the very first day -- ee: -- that he was actually ee : And the captain is under the he warden would hav ct warden, and wanted him to EFTA00058797

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LIMITED No No No ies) w fos) ive) oo its) iat) OFFICIAL USE 114 ME: supported our a cellmate. So, recommendation for him to ere the ball was dropped, I'm not 100 percent But I kr 0 to ct wu hh fal 0 R @ ra ry RK @ w executive n i= ia] oO and I know that was a tion on our part. Whether the officer’s, whether it went down the chain, that, I will not know y because I am a : -- how they advised them, you know, the morning of their shift, this is what So, that is where I mean -- EFTA00058798

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LIMITED ies) w oO fos) wo i=) 3 rs R Rr wi OFFICIAL USE a : -- like, the yearly training. I mean, you would think, you know, with the yearly training, with the annual training, with training, a quarterly training ach suicide prevention. limate, and the | ti‘ aiésll And you say that same thing during the annual training? not only are the SHU staff getting it in their quarterly getting it in the EFTA00058799

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 3 cr 0 30, that is what I mean ive) by, is there ever an excuse, saying that we didn't think he needed one? If they w wo ive) 15 -h should be rounding ery half an hour, and 16 a high-profile 18 __ its) 07) taff if custody or not, do 22 hey nnual refresher training? 24 R&D a 25 required. EFTA00058800

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 N Ww w ~] ive) suggested a cell room with a camera for Epstein, because she wanted him to have a a : I don’t make those decisions, as far as who goes on Ten South. Ten South is a high security unit where we house many of the SAMs inmates. I don’t know if you are familiar with the SAMs, but they are in Special Administrative Measures. On occasion, we have had high profile inmates, but that is at the discretion of the warden. Not psychology. Whether he wants to house a high-profile inmate up there. We had Bernard Mayta (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:19) up there. We had El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:20) up there. We had the Russian arms dealer up there for a while. So, we have had people there. But the warden - and I don't know why, because I was not in those meetings - decided that he was not going to place him in EFTA00058801

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LIMITED oO wo ive) fea] oo wo No Ww OFFIC South and a camera. a : My recommendations were not a : It was told. It wasn’t I'm ee : That he was not going on Ten Did Ten South EFTA00058802

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LIMITED ho ho No No iN ies) w fos) wo co © iat) OFFICIAL USE 119 Earlier -- a : -- earlier in his at th end -- o Earlier in his call that he wasn’t going to be sed in Ten South, that it was decided, the warden, that he wasn’t going to put him up the So, when I wa J D 6K ii) 7) being told that, knowing if he was going to be on Nine South, then I would say certainly would have had no camera in Ten South. uth or Nine South? a I would ha EFTA00058803

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 120 I would have said Ten South because wu 3 Q a wu jon n D 0] 3 for s rt a © Ki 0) oO many high-profile inmates up there, and being but in this a good thing, but when ‘o & oO Ph b be oO oO 3 Oo rt a 0) te] But, like -- -- at the time, EFTA00058804

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LIMITED ive) oO wo ive) fea] oo OFFICIAL USE 121 you would have thought that Ten South would ha been more appropriate over om a : -- I don’t make thos But it was the warden’s call, as far as you know? ee : As far as I know. That’s what him on Nine South with EFTA00058805

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a : Let me finish that -- ee : -- (Indiscernible *01:33:20). That’s the last paragraph. “Rooms with cameras aren’t always perfect due to the guard having to maintain a constant eye on the camera screen. She noted she has never gone to attorney conference for any other patients or inmates. She believes MCC psychological services did all they could for Epstein. And ultimately, the lack of a cellmate, and under staffing contributed to his death. Three suicide risk assessments were completed on Epstein, which is unusual. One of those was completed due to a judge’s order.” Is it normal for a judge to request a psychological - 2 a : It is not uncommon, especially when the judge knew he had been on watch before. a : Mm-hmm. a : So, I think, I don’t think he was ordered the first time, to be placed on watch. I think it -. I don’t remember which time it was that the judge ordered it. But EFTA00058806

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LIMITED ies) w fos) ite) ive) oo © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE 123 udges will, if there is, if they have ever u- is that he was denied the bail, I don’t know which was the first time, though? he first time I I don’t know if it had first came on, when he, on July 23rd, what was he ae : I think that is when he came back and was denied the bail. EFTA00058807

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 ies) w ~] wo 10 11 ive) And do you think that was probably the one that the judge -? Because obviously, you do it when they come on, right? And then, you do it if they try to attempt suicide. Or maybe the judge -. I don't know if it was the first time. Maybe it was the first time. Because I think the second time was Dr. a. Which I really complimented her on. I think she did it out of precaution, because of what happened in court. ee: Okay. And that was -- a : I think she did it on her own instinct. Not because she was told to. 2) tan i he Wait. I have an event that took place on August -- Okay. -- August lst. It looks like .Q the correctional systems received a form from the U.S. Marshal Service, the previous day stating that Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies. I guess he went to court. And he reported suicidal tendencies. So, the Marshal Service reported that to correctional systems, EFTA00058808

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 125 and correctional sy 1ological obse them. So, I am thinking, because he coming off watch, he might h watch. wasn’t -. ae : -- suicidal tende Okay. EFTA00058809

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LIMITED oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 126 og 3 A. cr Za m int iw) b ct it] the same thing. wasn’t abnormal that they wrote that on August a : Not if he had rex vere awar e of the third instance was, with -? a : Remember, we did, we had him EFTA00058810

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE = : MEN: The third one -- ° WS: -- to figure -. o \ | ty iat f wu b ts) | | 8 two that I wo think the court. On the August lst? ot) I think so. I have to It might be. I have to look oO oo EFTA00058811

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LIMITED oO wo oO oo OFFIC AL USE 28 wondering -- I could do that. w know? : 1) just -- this with y was the Who him from watch the first time, and stepped in part of her this quickly. a : Just because we’re EFTA00058812

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 oO wo to step down Epstein ot) oO oo Is she talking about watch to 25 warden a. is that a normal thing EFTA00058813

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 that she would discuss that decision? She 2 would discuss that with an associate warden? 3 Is that normal? 5 MMMM cave her a call. Maybe she gave J- 6 || a call, just because he was who he was. 7 We don’t do it with every single inmate. We 8 send out a notification to, like, all executive 9 staff. And every day, on who is on watch, he 10 was removed from watch. An average inmate, 11 maybe they wouldn’t have had a discussion. Maybe it was because it was ive) « -- 16 7 | ti‘ aiésll -- it goes into the -. 8 Do you have any knowledge that around this 9 time, executive staff, or anybody at the 20 institution, was contacted by either the 21 attorneys or the judge, saying he needs to be 22 taken off of suicide watch, and put to 23 psychological observation, so the attorney 24 visits may -? a : We never got a call like EFTA00058814

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 oO Oo felt he was written to be stepped 19 PF : I have a few follow up 21 ee : So, this is the very 95 EFTA00058815

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) ee : It’s taking longer than we expected. ee : It’s okay. ee : When inmate J was chosen to be Epstein’s cellmate after he was brought back to the SHU, do you know who was involved in that decision-making? ee : Executive staff, most likely. Or correctional staff. Probably the captain. The captain and the AW over programs. a : And do you think that everyone, in terms of captain, the lieutenants, and even the SHU staff would have known who | was, that he was Epstein’s cellmate? a : I mean, I would hope that was discussed. But again, I don’t know if it was discussed with them. But the captain should is] have passed it onto the lieutenants, and the lieutenants should have passed it to the staff. HN: 0c based on the recommendation, as you mentioned, from your office and also through the chain of command, they should - everyone should have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? EFTA00058816

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 b td 3 A. b Bh it] 4 a : I would think so. oO ~] came up with list of names tein, did tt 13 15 if there -- 16 17 n, if he was t co ct oO EFTA00058817

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LIMITED oO Hi 3 i) ny] Ph K oO ive) oO oo OFFICIAL USE 0 O Epstein was think don’t —-- we w a wu rt minutes. Hi tioned that he told rt J i] rt a 0) ios ] Q a bail hearing. Mm-hmm. him with I want to rem prescribed any show -- ember. ill into jump EFTA00058818

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 that h 1] Fy wn 3 a : He didn't mention that? o - J wu ke 7 a : He may have. I know he wo ive) ) Fh seen this? fea] t co No. 0} know what 22 a : Okay. So, this was done by down to do on running EFTA00058819

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE w ~] ive) 4 oa fu bh Wo oO death. -- immediately after. oO ny ry ta : There is a note. “On July 9th, 2019, at 12:35, health services completes a history and physical for inmate Epstein. This assessment was done in lieu of an intake screening, which should have been conducted within 24 hours of arrival.” It looks like he arrived on July 6th, but the intake screening wasn’t done for him. That’s medical. t’s medical. Okay. We did it the next day. We do them within 24 hours. o tan i) “On July 18th, 30-day psychology reviews are conducted for the entire SHU population. Inmate Epstein was not in the SHU at the time due to an attorney visit. The review was never conducted.” He was probably seen in attorney conference, but it wasn’t conducted if he wasn’t in the SHU at the time. Should they have followed - psychology - have followed up? EFTA00058820

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LIMITED ive) w oO wo 3 29 2 23 24 OFFICIAL USE 1 u ~ or if we put ina the notification by the U.S. Marshal Service said that would be routine, if went to court, and would normally make a routine EFTA00058821

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ies) w ~] wo i=) 11 ive) Wo o documents in here, to show you, but it was flagged that, “The psychology intake screening contains errors in identifying details. Inmate Epstein is referred to as a black inmate, anda different inmate’s name is used within the report.” a : Yes. One of the psychologist is) made an error. Perhaps. It was wu template-ish error. I don’t know. a : To be honest, it was probably template error. She was probably writing it wu quickly, and when she proofread it, she didn't catch it. Okay. “There -- Mm-hmm. -- there are errors within the risk of sexual abusiveness report, such as referencing an inaccurate program statement, and noting a history of prior prison sexual predation.” a : Okay. Again -- HS: (Indiscernible *01:44:50)? a : -- again, that i checklist. It was probably a typo on the mn a EFTA00058822

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 checklist. ies) into the record. w U Bb 5 ray oO 5 Oo ct oO ct a wu + 7 somebody is 8 unlic 2) -- 10 I will -- psychologist? chologist at the + Ww ct Le 3 w mn o ial 16 typos. Looking back and having a 17 with her, they were typos, but she is a c Les] n ) wu n 2) a] o o ie] 0 et 0 Pa Oo t Oo wW bh if) ct a forensic ps -+ 9 and I couldn’t possibly read every note that are unlicensed, on probationary, then I go into the record. 24 ae : So, it is not that EFTA00058823

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It was just, it was a format that she probably used. Yes. Okay. Now -- Definitely. -- there is another incident, “July 16th, 12:48 p.m., inmate Epstein is seen by psychology in the presence of his attorneys, while conducting a legal visit. This visit recommended no follow up. This visit was at the request of inmate Epstein, that was wholly inappropriate. Inmate Epstein attempted to establish guidelines for communication, and bring his attorneys into the fray regarding mental health treatment be provided by the institution. It is not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to provide psychological intervention in the presence of others, nor is it appropriate for an agency psychologist to meet with the inmate attorneys.” The summary they put on there is, “On July 16th, 2019, a psychologist met with inmate Epstein in the presence of his attorneys. This visit was done at the request of inmate Epstein, that appears EFTA00058824

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 wi ~] 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to have been the purpose of airing grievances with conditions of confinement. This is a highly abnormal event. It is not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to provide psychological intervention in the presence of others, and agency psychologists should not - should neither provide mental health intervention in the presence of others, nor engage legal representation regarding institution operations or conditions of confinement. Although the specifics of what information the psychologists are unknown, any items shared could be viewed as an unauthorized release of information, both regarding inmate Epstein’s mental health treatment, and institution operational information.” a : Can you elaborate -? HR: )= hat is your response to that, I guess? a : I wasn’t aware -- ee : Do you agree with it, or EFTA00058825

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 psychologists, or I went up one time, and I think another one of my psychologists went up, it was probably just to see that he was okay, and that he didn't need anything from psychology. So, the intention was to check on him. It wasn’t to breach any security, or it wasn’t to meet his demands, or anything like that. It was probably because he did spend eight hours up there, and it was more well meaning that we just probably just wanted to see if he had any needs from our department, at that time. Or on that one occasion, he was up there when that psychologist was conducting her rounds in the suicide watch area, and he wasn’t there. And she went up there to check on his mental status, to see if he was okay. ME: 2c ee : And who would have that one been? a : I think it was Dr. | that went up there on one occasion. And I think I went up there on one occasion. That’s when he made that comment to me. EFTA00058826

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ee : Now, so, what is your -- ee : I did not share -- ee : -- do you agree -- a : -- anything with his attorneys. He stepped out of the room. Like, the attorneys were sitting at the table. And then, there is the door, and he walked up towards the door. And I just said, you know, I think when I went up there, you know, are you okay? Have you been eating and sleeping okay? I didn't discuss any intimate details of his childhood, or anything like that. It was kind of just, like, are you okay? Do you have any thoughts of harming yourself? Have you been eating and sleeping, or do you have any concerns like that. And you could see my notes, it would probably indicate what I did ask him. It was well meaning. I certainly didn't engage. I don't know. I doubt Dr. | did, because she is very rigid. And any discourse with his attorney about anything. I think his attorneys may have made a comment to me, but I think I ignored it. EFTA00058827

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LIMITED 3 4 would hz 5 the « and 6 16 a : -- two times that we up 17 and that was more well meaning, EFTA00058828

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co © No N No Ww OFFICIAL USE This isn’t on with do you agree that you should not would be if it could it is probably not the situation. circumstantially, this was in the room from dawn until felt a need check on him, And to we he was okay. So -- What -. would weren’t that it wasn’t a probably thing to do. to 145 that best to his EFTA00058829

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 first suicide attempt, it looks like, on, it ies) w fos) a : In reading that, I probably wo ive) co 22 a : So, what, in retrospect, 23 I guess, what should =d him to 25 a private room? EFTA00058830

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LIMITED Ww w wo WwW fea] oo its) USE Vokh OFFICIAL ue Hi .Q that paying his 7 consult You said it is highly u sitting in Is that not allowed would hav att nu 147 could have done s we rfer int 0) o i) d with his, It is just, I on that further. it] ct os bp 5 st mentioned som somebody n that long. that not You know, ust they Yeah. kind of money. It’s -. an attorne for nine room. last about hour. an EFTA00058831

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 So, I had never seen that before in all my 2 years in the prisons. But it is not like you 3 can't do it. I guess if you have the money, 4 and the resources to have different attorr w Q O 3 oO ct Oo o) oO ini het Oo c ini raf aa i) QQ wu het i} i} 7 Mice have one more topic, fos) wo and then it is done. i=) So, were you aware that Mr. 2 Epstein was allowed to make an unmonitored ive) te) phone call on the evening of August 9th? fn \ 5 a : So, on August 9th, it looks f foal f b. ~ oO Za oO on pe i) ra] ri] a tee fu 5 A. PIN was provided to him, 7 but it was never set up. So, he requested a oo phone call, and it looks like the unit manager 9 took him to the SHU, brought back from attorney =>d him in the shower. 20 conference, and plac No ox) Plugged it into the legal 24 line. EFTA00058832

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 a : And he said he wanted to talk 2 to his mother. So, the unit manager dialed out 3 the number. A guy answered the phone. He 4 handed the phone, the phone over to Mr. 5 Epstein. 7 a : And he left. So, Mr. Epstein 8 was allowed to make the phone call. It was not 9 monitored. And what do you think? Do you 10 think that should have ever been allowed? 11 a : That is never allowed. That 2 is not allowed. 3 a : Do you think that played any 4 part into what happened that night, being the 15 fact that he was allowed to make a phone call, 16 unmonitored, a phone call? Remember, he mentioned that it was to his mother. 8 a : Right. 9 a : But we learned that his 20 mother has been deceased for a while. 21 Ee: This isn’t really for her 22 to answer EFTA00058833

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 10 11 12 13 14 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 interview report, though. It says, “On August 8th, 2019, Po attended the SHU meeting. She couldn’t recall all who was there. But noted,” - so, this talks about that meeting, and it said that, “Epstein had received his pack number, which allows him to make phone calls, and he asked for his books from psychological observation.” So, are you aware that he actually did receive his pack number? Pack and PIN number, so he could actually make calls? a : I probably was privy to it, if it was mentioned in the SHU meeting. But that wouldn't have any psychological meaning, other than he could make the calls, and they would bring the phone to his cell, which is what they usually do, and he can make the phone calls. ee : So, you don’t recall if he was actually provided a pack and PIN number or not? a : I don’t recall. ae : Because I don’t set that up or anything. It could have been mentioned in EFTA00058834

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LIMITED ies) w fos) wo ive) co OFFICIAL USE 151 the SHU meeting. But that doesn't directly impact mental health services. So, and you don’t know if it was actually - not only w and PIN number - but you don’t know if it I don't know. You know, I don’t know. a : That is the last two. a : Okay. So, do you think Mr. to it, too, that period of time, he appeared psychologically stable. But the information that he according EFTA00058835

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to what I heard the night before, and all of that information being unsealed, and him being alone with his thoughts, and thinking that maybe, perhaps he would have to spend the rest of his life in jail, and that all of these high-profile individuals information was going to come out about them. Could he have, at that moment, just felt completely hopeless, and thought of ending his life? Yes. That is very possible. You know, that is very possible. Prior to me leaving, he wasn’t given any of this information, and he had a lot of hope, he had a lot of resources. Perhaps he thought, you know, maybe he could cooperate, or get some kind of a deal. I don't know what happened at that meeting. But having been in the prison system as long as I have been, and being a psychologist, sometimes when people get really bad news, and they feel very hopeless, and the opportunity is there. They will take that opportunity. So, yes. It would be highly improbable, you know, the way our prison is set up, that someone could have snuck up there and harmed him, in some way. The way that the tiers are and EFTA00058836

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LIMITED Ww oO wo WwW fea] oo 19 OFFICIAL USE he didn’t. 153 kill himself. That leads to my A son to own life? ee: No. Is there anything ust that, you that we should know? Not that I can know, we -. No. longer b ct a @ QO aT] n o in ite] i) 3 ct o, I think the higher probability EFTA00058837

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LIMITED ive) w wo ive) fea] oo © No Ww OFFICIAL USE 154 time. those notes, I would know when the Marshals came in, because it is kind of a blur to me. much for that. If anything comes up, or you want to share, please, EFTA00058838

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 W:«s es.) Thank you. It is currently 3 11:18 a.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 4 This is Senior 5 I am turning off the recorder. fos) oo EFTA00058839

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LIMITED Oo Oo oo OFFICIAL USE 156 CERTIFICATE the matt EFTA00058840